Prime
Appearances
How About Tomorrow?
Native vs Web, Managers, and What's Happening Today in Dallas
Okay, do I sound normal? It's giving.
How About Tomorrow?
Native vs Web, Managers, and What's Happening Today in Dallas
I love it. I love it as a user of SSTv3 that everyone's using it and making it better now. I mean, like helping you guys make it better because there was something like when it very first versions, there were definitely some rough edges. I'm just realizing on this podcast, we've gone from SST1 to two, and now to three. Wow. And that begs the question, what's the plan for SSTV4?
How About Tomorrow?
Native vs Web, Managers, and What's Happening Today in Dallas
When are we rewriting again?
How About Tomorrow?
Native vs Web, Managers, and What's Happening Today in Dallas
I love it, man. It's my favorite way to build stuff. I could show it all day long. Uh, and maybe we should do that sometime. Maybe I should just, it's been all podcasts talking through how much I love as a CB three.
How About Tomorrow?
Native vs Web, Managers, and What's Happening Today in Dallas
Yeah, that's what you've been doing. I'm working on a mobile app. I'm not a mobile developer.
How About Tomorrow?
Native vs Web, Managers, and What's Happening Today in Dallas
Yeah, we're trying to get the mobile app out. We've had an iOS app for years. We've never had an Android app. But the iOS app has been out there, and it's just not the same as our website. It's just a very different thing. And literally every time we tweet like some cool new thing we did, anytime we tweet like product stuff, it's like we need an app. We don't care. We want an app.
How About Tomorrow?
Native vs Web, Managers, and What's Happening Today in Dallas
Give us an app, bro. Like everybody just wants a native app. And I don't relate to that. Like I guess like maybe because I'm a web developer, I just want the web to be enough. It's like we have a website. It's great. It looks good on mobile. Choose website. People don't care. They want an app. And it's like normie people.
How About Tomorrow?
Native vs Web, Managers, and What's Happening Today in Dallas
That's true. They just use phones now. They don't have to get on a computer if they're not doing knowledge work, I guess. Yeah, I don't know. Yeah, I guess like that is what what is. So this is a good topic. What is the fundamental difference between native apps and a good web app? Like, why does it just feel worse in a web browser? I know it does, but I can't articulate why.
How About Tomorrow?
Native vs Web, Managers, and What's Happening Today in Dallas
That's what I want to know. What is it limited by? Like, what are the laws of physics? If we go first principles here, why can't a browser have as responsive of scroll and touch as a native app? And I was joking about the first principles. I was maiming. I'm not that guy. Please don't make fun of me. Sorry. Sometimes I am that guy sometimes. So I have to clarify when I'm joking.
How About Tomorrow?
Native vs Web, Managers, and What's Happening Today in Dallas
It's like inception.
How About Tomorrow?
Native vs Web, Managers, and What's Happening Today in Dallas
Yeah. So I guess like if you implemented your, so I've got like a React Native app. It's actually Expo. And it's a like, whatever. It's got normal native stuff in it. It's got some web views. But if I like somehow implemented the StatMuse website in a canvas, let's just assume I went through that pain. Do you think it would feel as good as a native app? I think it could. Really?
How About Tomorrow?
Native vs Web, Managers, and What's Happening Today in Dallas
People build games in Canvas. And in a browser, it feels good?
How About Tomorrow?
Native vs Web, Managers, and What's Happening Today in Dallas
Who's built a normal scroll view experience? You should talk to Ken.
How About Tomorrow?
Native vs Web, Managers, and What's Happening Today in Dallas
So if you could just build like normal website functionality using those APIs, then you wouldn't need a native app. Maybe I guess like, yeah.
How About Tomorrow?
Native vs Web, Managers, and What's Happening Today in Dallas
What? I'm sorry. What is Flutter?
How About Tomorrow?
Native vs Web, Managers, and What's Happening Today in Dallas
Somebody send me like an example of a web, like a mobile web experience that feels like a native app. I'm sure somebody's done this. Maybe I could just Google it, but it'd be better if you just send us an email at really great mobile web example at tomorrow.fm.
How About Tomorrow?
Native vs Web, Managers, and What's Happening Today in Dallas
Yeah. Just aliases, email aliases. You know what? I don't know if I've set up an email.
How About Tomorrow?
Native vs Web, Managers, and What's Happening Today in Dallas
That's funny. Well, we'll see. I'm not going to look.
How About Tomorrow?
Native vs Web, Managers, and What's Happening Today in Dallas
Don't work anymore.
How About Tomorrow?
Native vs Web, Managers, and What's Happening Today in Dallas
Yeah. Yeah, I'm probably not going to do this because I've mostly got the app built in Expo, and that's going to stay that way.
How About Tomorrow?
Native vs Web, Managers, and What's Happening Today in Dallas
I didn't hate it. Okay, so mobile web development's interesting. In some ways, I like it. In other ways, I just miss the web stuff. Expo, I will say, feels pretty similar to modern web development. I don't know if you've ever played with Expo.
How About Tomorrow?
Native vs Web, Managers, and What's Happening Today in Dallas
Yeah, so it's great. I think I get very confused about what's actually happening. There's a JavaScript bundle, and it's doing some stuff. Is it using real native stuff? I don't know. I just kind of build with the normal controls that Expo provides. But most of the app, honestly, is just web views. Yeah.
How About Tomorrow?
Native vs Web, Managers, and What's Happening Today in Dallas
It's just coordinating a bunch of different web views because we don't want to build every single page on the site, all the different scoreboards and just whatever, standings and all the different visuals we have. We don't want to build them all in Swift or whatever. It's just like, because then when we have new features, we have to build them there too. As a small team, it's kind of untenable.
How About Tomorrow?
Native vs Web, Managers, and What's Happening Today in Dallas
So we just use the web view. And maybe that's like a golden rule you don't break, like don't use web views. I'm sure there's mobile developers who are like screaming at me right now on the other side of the podcast, but I don't know. It's working for us.
How About Tomorrow?
Native vs Web, Managers, and What's Happening Today in Dallas
Yeah, so there's a native... like nav bar at the bottom that has different... They're actually different tabs that have different web views loading to different pages. There's other things, like we don't render the web ads in the web views, so we've got some trickery going on to hide some stuff if it's a native app, and then we render native ads. There's like native ad SDKs. Oh, I see.
How About Tomorrow?
Native vs Web, Managers, and What's Happening Today in Dallas
So there's stuff like that. Why not just... Yeah, like originally, the first... plan was like, well, we could just build this as a web view and like, could it just load our site? And then like, does that actually improve anything? Is that, is that better than a mobile, like a web app? I mean, it's at least it's in the app store. So the people who are like, give us an app, it's like, here's an app.
How About Tomorrow?
Native vs Web, Managers, and What's Happening Today in Dallas
They just don't know that they got suckered into using our web app. Uh, but then we thought of some stuff that like the search is more, it's native, like using native controls and the neighbor native keyboard and all that. Just little things like that. It's mostly web views, but there's like the 10% that's native. Just nabbing around and stuff.
How About Tomorrow?
Native vs Web, Managers, and What's Happening Today in Dallas
Yeah, the app feels pretty good. There were things, rough edges at first, that we exposed, like loading states feeling really slow on a native app because you're not used to that. But we stripped them out and it's feeling a lot better now. Yeah, I don't know. I think the people who are asking for an app will be pleased. It is an app, in fact. And it's the current StatMuse experience.
How About Tomorrow?
Native vs Web, Managers, and What's Happening Today in Dallas
Between digging the hole and putting his dog down and putting the dog in the hole, I thought, good opportunity.
How About Tomorrow?
Native vs Web, Managers, and What's Happening Today in Dallas
Like if you go to www.statmuse.com, it feels like that, but just made from an app. So yeah, I think it came out pretty good. Not quite done. Still a few remaining to do's. But we'll actually have it on Android now too. So that's nice. Although I will say, Expo does a lot to make your life easier across these different platforms. There's just all these little weird gotchas, though.
How About Tomorrow?
Native vs Web, Managers, and What's Happening Today in Dallas
Like, oh, you can't do that on Android. Oh, you can't use this API. And I'm doing really basic stuff. The kind of things that are really annoying to then work around. So as an example, form posts... can't include headers on Android, but they can on iOS. So that's the kind of weird thing that you just ship it for both.
How About Tomorrow?
Native vs Web, Managers, and What's Happening Today in Dallas
And I've got a team member that has an Android phone and they're like, yeah, I can't ask any questions. It doesn't work. I'm like, sure it does. I don't know what you're talking about. And then I had to download the Android emulator and all that stuff. And then I learned. Yeah. So there's still a little whack-a-mole stuff like that.
How About Tomorrow?
Native vs Web, Managers, and What's Happening Today in Dallas
Well, I always said that when I was doing freelance work. The great thing about doing back-end-y DevOps consulting is there's no feedback. There's no UI complaints. If you build full-stack websites, which I have for freelance clients, the work never ends. They have opinions on literally everything. You build something for the cloud or you do a security audit or you do something that's like...
How About Tomorrow?
Native vs Web, Managers, and What's Happening Today in Dallas
back-end infra stuff, AWS stuff, there's like no back and forth. It's like, I did the thing, here's the thing, everybody's happy. Whereas you ship some buttons on a webpage and there's going to be opinions about every single thing.
How About Tomorrow?
Native vs Web, Managers, and What's Happening Today in Dallas
I love prime messages, like on Slack. It's the best. Like everyone has their voice dictated. And it's like, he has no idea what's going on next week. And I just love it. It's the best.
How About Tomorrow?
Native vs Web, Managers, and What's Happening Today in Dallas
I much prefer back end. Have we talked about this? I really dislike front-end so much. And how do we keep ending up doing front-end work in my career? I don't know how to escape it.
How About Tomorrow?
Native vs Web, Managers, and What's Happening Today in Dallas
It's insane, actually. For what our skill sets are, the amount of front-end work that we do is kind of crazy. Someone explain this to me. Does nobody else want to do it? What? Are we just too agreeable? You care. You just can't not care about it.
How About Tomorrow?
Native vs Web, Managers, and What's Happening Today in Dallas
I don't know. Maybe I want to not care. Can I not care? All the places that I do front end development. What if I just don't want to care anymore? Can I just do back end? I'll talk to Stat News.
How About Tomorrow?
Native vs Web, Managers, and What's Happening Today in Dallas
We've got other front end engineers. They're great. Why do I get put on front end teams? What is it about me? Do I just skinny jeans? Is that what it is? What is it about me? People like you should work on the front end. Never mind all your back end experience.
How About Tomorrow?
Native vs Web, Managers, and What's Happening Today in Dallas
at first glance right oh maybe there's nobody there's nobody that we should actually do some kind of i know people know us too well if we could just put our faces side by side and run like a pole come on engineers that don't know can we just like kind of like use ai to modify the image so it doesn't look like us but it's our skin color exactly like our facial hair everything yeah that's actually really good i would love to know what people say that's really good
How About Tomorrow?
Native vs Web, Managers, and What's Happening Today in Dallas
Yeah, I do feel, too, like I'm getting a little old. I just turned 38 a couple days ago, by the way. I just turned 38. Oh, congrats. I didn't know that. Yeah, I don't really talk about my birthday. Somebody told me it was a security risk. Wait, do you and Alan have the same birthday? Maybe. Oh. It's okay.
How About Tomorrow?
Native vs Web, Managers, and What's Happening Today in Dallas
No one's going to get that joke at all. No, not at all. I'm 38. I do feel like, is there a point where you age out of being on the front end team? It's always going to be like me and like the 18 year olds building front ends and I'm going to be 52. And it's like, what is going on in my career? Why am I working at
How About Tomorrow?
Native vs Web, Managers, and What's Happening Today in Dallas
it's like traditionally a junior thing to work on the front end you're right it is a very fun has a younger younger vibe to it for sure like you got to say things like it's giving and it's bad you're gonna be on the front end team you have to know what it means to say bet unironically And I don't actually. So someone get me off the front end team.
How About Tomorrow?
Native vs Web, Managers, and What's Happening Today in Dallas
It is funny. I was also talking to Casey, just speaking of job roles. maybe I want to be a manager someday again, or I was only for like 10 minutes and then I hated it. And I wanted to go back to individual contribution.
How About Tomorrow?
Native vs Web, Managers, and What's Happening Today in Dallas
Sounds awful and awesome all at the same time.
How About Tomorrow?
Native vs Web, Managers, and What's Happening Today in Dallas
That's what I'm getting at. It's like the individual contributor role is so tiresome. It's one thing to the next. there will always be a thing that I'm trying to deliver.
How About Tomorrow?
Native vs Web, Managers, and What's Happening Today in Dallas
See, that's what I was feeling like. If I was a manager, I would have a lighter load. That's what I assume.
How About Tomorrow?
Native vs Web, Managers, and What's Happening Today in Dallas
At the end of the day, it kind of feels like a fake job to me. It was a fake job. Is everybody happy? Is everyone still hired here? Anyone that needs to be fired is fired? Cool, did my job. Now I'm going to chill.
How About Tomorrow?
Native vs Web, Managers, and What's Happening Today in Dallas
Yeah. Do you ever see those Twitter threads? Not as much lately, but I feel like there was a heyday for this maybe a year or two ago. Threads from like engineering managers, very serious influencer types. They're like, here's how you get the most out of your team. And if you're just managing and you're not thinking about these things, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. I think it's all fake.
How About Tomorrow?
Native vs Web, Managers, and What's Happening Today in Dallas
And you're flying from Maine to Dallas. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, it just freaked me out for a second that I had the dates wrong or something. That's the first thing I want to talk about is I'm flying in Sunday. I think everyone is flying in Sunday.
How About Tomorrow?
Native vs Web, Managers, and What's Happening Today in Dallas
I think like How do you even measure a good engineering manager? I don't think managers should exist. So it's hard for me to imagine like your job, you figured it out and you're going to teach people how to manage people so that they're happy. There's nothing a manager could do or say to me that would make me better at my job. Like I'm either good at my job or bad at my job.
How About Tomorrow?
Native vs Web, Managers, and What's Happening Today in Dallas
And I just think that I'm probably overreacting here and getting way too aggressive. But the whole thing just smells to me. It just seems weird to like obsess about this engineering manager thing. Like it's this high calling and you can get so much out of a team. Show me one like way to measure that, that your job was so important that the team did XYZ. I just don't get it.
How About Tomorrow?
Native vs Web, Managers, and What's Happening Today in Dallas
So is the difference in the one manager at a startup because somebody has to manage the startup, the leader of the engineering team, versus big company or middle-sized company with lots of middle managers? That's what you're saying?
How About Tomorrow?
Native vs Web, Managers, and What's Happening Today in Dallas
OK, so we're going to have dinner tomorrow night and then Monday is the basketball game.
How About Tomorrow?
Native vs Web, Managers, and What's Happening Today in Dallas
Here's what you should cover. Yeah, I'm realizing like I do this thing where I go really extreme and I just I completely like discount an entire team. a profession or role. And I say things not just that. Sometimes it's people, sometimes whatever. I'm sorry, I shouldn't do that. You're fine. If you're a middle manager, you're a developer manager, whatever, whatever they're called.
How About Tomorrow?
Native vs Web, Managers, and What's Happening Today in Dallas
I'm sure you're doing a great job. Keep doing it. Keep doing your thing. Don't listen to me. I don't know anything. Great. So I agree with everything you said. You just walked it all back. Well, no, I feel like you were like... Now I'm out here on an island. No, no, no, no. I think you were like being kind and you were like, yeah, yeah, I agree.
How About Tomorrow?
Native vs Web, Managers, and What's Happening Today in Dallas
But then you were like, but actually it is a real thing and it matters.
How About Tomorrow?
Native vs Web, Managers, and What's Happening Today in Dallas
Oh, you don't want to answer personal questions on the podcast? No, I'm saying I can answer it personally. No, I'm asking you. Yeah, I'm asking Dax. What's worth glorifying?
How About Tomorrow?
Native vs Web, Managers, and What's Happening Today in Dallas
Yeah, there were some tears the other night. We watched Inside Out 2, and I didn't cry, but people in the family. Not that it was bad to cry. Not that it would be bad if I cried. I should have cried. I don't have a soul. Anyway, continue.
How About Tomorrow?
Native vs Web, Managers, and What's Happening Today in Dallas
I mean, I'll go out Monday morning.
How About Tomorrow?
Native vs Web, Managers, and What's Happening Today in Dallas
Yeah, just spoil. It's fine. Yeah.
How About Tomorrow?
Native vs Web, Managers, and What's Happening Today in Dallas
That's a good answer. There is one thing. There's one thing that makes me cry all the time, every time it comes up and I'm gonna save it for next podcast. Oh, look at that.
How About Tomorrow?
Native vs Web, Managers, and What's Happening Today in Dallas
I really do have to go. Okay. I'm going to forget and someone's going to have to remind me to tell you all on the next episode. Dax, try to remember. I'll tell you guys what makes me cry.
How About Tomorrow?
Native vs Web, Managers, and What's Happening Today in Dallas
No, but that's a good one too. When people don't have the bokeh on their camera. Just right. Anyway. I'll see you in a couple days. Yeah, wow. Yeah, when people are listening to this, we'll be getting on planes to Dallas. We did that once before.
How About Tomorrow?
Native vs Web, Managers, and What's Happening Today in Dallas
I just saw, by the way, Hacksaw. I don't know if you listen to the podcast, but Hacksaw just pushed a PR to the terminal repo. It's actually a bug fix. Whoa. No, it's an issue. I'm sorry. It's not a PR. It's an issue. You should bring us problems instead of solutions. He posted a screenshot of a chat with me where he was like, could you please do this? And I was like, yes, sorry, LOL.
How About Tomorrow?
Native vs Web, Managers, and What's Happening Today in Dallas
And I haven't done it. So... That's funny. Anyway. Are you just looking at it? Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's funny. My bad. I thought it was a four with myself. I'm so excited. Okay. Well, whatever. All right. All right. See ya. See ya.
How About Tomorrow?
Native vs Web, Managers, and What's Happening Today in Dallas
Oh, David designed an overlay.
How About Tomorrow?
Native vs Web, Managers, and What's Happening Today in Dallas
We're going to drive it. Sorry. Yeah. We'll leave it there.
How About Tomorrow?
Native vs Web, Managers, and What's Happening Today in Dallas
Yeah, I don't think I can actually move mine forward very easily. So if you could move yours back, that'd be great. I don't know how much I can move it back, but I'll try. Yeah, if our heads were the same size, that would be perfect.
How About Tomorrow?
Native vs Web, Managers, and What's Happening Today in Dallas
Is like Tuesday. When is the conference? Yeah. When is Laracon?
How About Tomorrow?
Native vs Web, Managers, and What's Happening Today in Dallas
Just Tuesday. And Wednesday. Oh, and Wednesday. And then everyone's flying out Thursday.
How About Tomorrow?
Native vs Web, Managers, and What's Happening Today in Dallas
Okay. I hate missing out on hangout time, but I'm probably going to fly back Tuesday.
How About Tomorrow?
Native vs Web, Managers, and What's Happening Today in Dallas
Yeah, like... I mean, there's the serving coffee. Is there any other responsibility that Terminal has at the conference?
How About Tomorrow?
Native vs Web, Managers, and What's Happening Today in Dallas
yeah there's not like active work like there was a lot of time cool well i was stressing out because it's like stat news the nfl season is like our super bowl just when it starts it's like a big deal we got all these releases going out with that and that's just not this week but next week i mean it's not the week we're there but the next week first week of september
How About Tomorrow?
Native vs Web, Managers, and What's Happening Today in Dallas
And I was all stressed, just like, I'm going to miss all of next week. And I have stuff to get done. And then I realized, like, I don't probably have to be there the whole time. It's Basketball Games Monday. That's the main thing I knew. I've been playing some basketball. I've been getting back in basketball shape. Not really. I'm in terrible shape. Basketball is different.
How About Tomorrow?
Native vs Web, Managers, and What's Happening Today in Dallas
Like, running up and down a court. Oh, my word. The heart is pounding. My shoulder hurts from shooting.
How About Tomorrow?
Native vs Web, Managers, and What's Happening Today in Dallas
So I also want to talk about the streaming setup because this is a big stressor of mine. I've seen messages floating around. So Wes and Scott are going to like commentate, which is fantastic.
How About Tomorrow?
Native vs Web, Managers, and What's Happening Today in Dallas
Are we going to be doing the streaming from our laptop in the arena? And we're going to use something.
How About Tomorrow?
Native vs Web, Managers, and What's Happening Today in Dallas
Yeah, so we're going to use something like Ping to get their camera feeds? Is that the idea?
How About Tomorrow?
Native vs Web, Managers, and What's Happening Today in Dallas
Okay, so do I need to be doing all that? Because I feel like they were wanting to do a test. No, you don't have to worry about that. I think the only thing that's from you is the camera. Yeah, I'm going to bring the camera and a gimbal, and we can use that for recording, for the stream, for anything we need a camera for, right? And all the wireless stuff.
How About Tomorrow?
Native vs Web, Managers, and What's Happening Today in Dallas
Yeah, and so Big Inbot can just carry it around. It can be connected to our laptop and send the OBS stream. Yeah. Man, there's so much. If we had a ton of time, there's so much cool stuff we could do with the OBS and the scoreboard. There's just so much. We are going to make the scoreboard live. Oh, we are?
How About Tomorrow?
Native vs Web, Managers, and What's Happening Today in Dallas
Oh, I got to see this. I'm pulling up Slack right now. Oh, look at this. How are we going to get the score?
How About Tomorrow?
Native vs Web, Managers, and What's Happening Today in Dallas
Okay, cool. This is awesome. These overlays look amazing.
How About Tomorrow?
Native vs Web, Managers, and What's Happening Today in Dallas
I know it's so good. David's just incredible. That reminds me too. I got to make this page for the website. Can AI do it? Can AI do it? Probably. I mean, it's basically just like other pages we have. So I can just change the text. It's fine. It's fine. Okay. Well, is that all the logistics for next week that we need to talk about?
How About Tomorrow?
Native vs Web, Managers, and What's Happening Today in Dallas
Yeah, the thing. Are we going to be able to get the wheels and the doors? There's some basics that we can do. And the... It's fun teasing this stuff out. I wonder if anyone that listens to our podcast actually cares about any of this. I wonder how many of our podcast listeners know about Terminal.
How About Tomorrow?
Native vs Web, Managers, and What's Happening Today in Dallas
Well, they know about Terminal because we talk about it incessantly, but actually have bought the coffee, actually follow us on Twitter. I have no idea. I mean, I kind of know who listens, but there's a big chunk of them I don't know.
How About Tomorrow?
Native vs Web, Managers, and What's Happening Today in Dallas
The randomness of when I click the record button and we're in the middle of talking about our AV setup every time.
How About Tomorrow?
Native vs Web, Managers, and What's Happening Today in Dallas
Yeah. There's, I see a read me update and a poll request. That's nice. That was Frank.
How About Tomorrow?
Native vs Web, Managers, and What's Happening Today in Dallas
So on this podcast, a couple of things. It might be a little short. I may have a cutoff before we get to an hour. But two, we got to talk a little bit logistics for next week. We are going to Dallas and we're going to double dip and use this podcast time as time to talk through a couple of things.
How About Tomorrow?
Native vs Web, Managers, and What's Happening Today in Dallas
If you're listening and you write code, which you probably do, if you're listening to this, uh, hit up the terminal repo, make some changes, fix stuff for us. That'd be cool.
How About Tomorrow?
Native vs Web, Managers, and What's Happening Today in Dallas
Yeah. What were they seeing?
How About Tomorrow?
Native vs Web, Managers, and What's Happening Today in Dallas
It's kind of a fun trivia fact. It doesn't matter. Yeah. So what's been going on with you? Let's, uh, let's actually talk and not just plan. I mean, I've been so busy. So same.
How About Tomorrow?
Native vs Web, Managers, and What's Happening Today in Dallas
Well, I dropped off Twitter for sure. That's the first thing to go whenever I get really busy.
How About Tomorrow?
Native vs Web, Managers, and What's Happening Today in Dallas
David sent me a DM and said, Hey, you've been really quiet. You okay? Yeah. In what ways have I been really quiet?
How About Tomorrow?
Native vs Web, Managers, and What's Happening Today in Dallas
Yeah. I was very chatty probably in the terminal discord before, and I've not been as chatty or chatty at all. I mostly just emote. I just, what's the word? Emote. Oh, I was forgetting those. Yeah. I do those. I laugh at the funny things I see. Yeah.
How About Tomorrow?
Native vs Web, Managers, and What's Happening Today in Dallas
So do imports work now?
How About Tomorrow?
Native vs Web, Managers, and What's Happening Today in Dallas
Wow. I mean, I thought I had a pretty big project. I thought we used a lot of stuff, but not like that.