Peter Suderman
Appearances
The Bulwark Podcast
'The Hottest Circle of Hell Is for Those Who Stay Neutral'
The first vote, you've either already voted or you should vote right now, and then there's gonna be another vote after the debate happens, and the team that wins will be the team that moves the most number of people towards their position. So if you have not yet cast your vote, Please follow the instructions on the screen and vote now.
The Bulwark Podcast
'The Hottest Circle of Hell Is for Those Who Stay Neutral'
As you do that, I want you to think just a little bit about the resolution before us tonight. What does it mean to pick a side in politics? We are gathered here this evening in Washington, DC, where national politics is dominated by two political parties that are constantly asking you to pick a side. When Americans go to the voting booth, most of them pull the lever for one of those two parties.
The Bulwark Podcast
'The Hottest Circle of Hell Is for Those Who Stay Neutral'
You will have an opportunity to ask questions of the debaters a little later. But now we're going to move into a segment where the debaters are going to be able to ask questions of each other. However, as the moderator, I'm going to take this opportunity to ask two questions first. And the first question is going to go to Matt and Nick, the Reason side.
The Bulwark Podcast
'The Hottest Circle of Hell Is for Those Who Stay Neutral'
I think the strongest argument or one of the strongest arguments that I heard from from the bulwark was that in the age of Trump, who is deeply anti-libertarian. And Sarah gave us this incredibly long list of anti-libertarian ideas and policies that Trump supports. Don't you have to pick a side against him? Nick, Matt, what do you say to that?
The Bulwark Podcast
'The Hottest Circle of Hell Is for Those Who Stay Neutral'
We should just poll you and then find out who's going to win. But it's somebody else. I agree. My idea is silver and keys. Yeah. I mean, does Nate Silver incorporate you into his models?
The Bulwark Podcast
'The Hottest Circle of Hell Is for Those Who Stay Neutral'
And in the vast majority of races, one of those two parties wins. Fundamentally, voting in a democracy is about picking sides. The very structure of American politics all but forces you to do so. And if you decide not to, are you throwing away your influence? Are you abdicating your democratic responsibility?
The Bulwark Podcast
'The Hottest Circle of Hell Is for Those Who Stay Neutral'
Are you just shrugging your shoulders and saying, you know, it doesn't really matter who wins. But then there's the flip side of this. Doesn't picking a side make it harder to hold politicians accountable? It's often said that politics is a team sport. But if you have already declared your allegiance to one team or another, what incentive is there for politicians to change?
The Bulwark Podcast
'The Hottest Circle of Hell Is for Those Who Stay Neutral'
This is what happened. Okay, so we are about halfway through this segment, and it has been dominated by talk of Donald Trump, and that's appropriate.
The Bulwark Podcast
'The Hottest Circle of Hell Is for Those Who Stay Neutral'
I'm so glad you're here. I'm so glad, Tim. This is exactly the energy I wanted, but I also want to think about this. We could have talked about cancel culture. Oh, man. Let's keep it to the people who are actually on stage. And I want to see if we can shift this just a little bit to thinking beyond Donald Trump. Again, I don't think it's inappropriate to be talking about him. He was president.
The Bulwark Podcast
'The Hottest Circle of Hell Is for Those Who Stay Neutral'
He was elected president again. At the same time, This question isn't just about Donald Trump. And one of the things I heard from the reason side of this argument is that Americans obviously don't pick a side in many cases. Something like what is a third of Americans don't vote because they don't have to. And in some ways that just supports the reason case that the Matt Welch argument here is.
The Bulwark Podcast
'The Hottest Circle of Hell Is for Those Who Stay Neutral'
that the resolution is correct. You don't have to pick a side. That's obviously true, simply based on the fact that many Americans do not.
The Bulwark Podcast
'The Hottest Circle of Hell Is for Those Who Stay Neutral'
Shouldn't politics be about issues and policies and governance rather than teams and partisan victories? There's a reason that people often praise bipartisanship. Americans tend to like it when politicians work together for better policy and better government rather than against the other side, just so that their own team can win. And then there's that old saw about both sides.
The Bulwark Podcast
'The Hottest Circle of Hell Is for Those Who Stay Neutral'
Press critics love to trash journalists who engage in lazy both-sides-ing, in creating false equivalences. And look, sometimes that can happen. Both-sides-ing can be an easy way to duck controversy and avoid responsibility. On the other hand, just look at the dismal approval ratings for Congress and some of our recent presidential candidates.
The Bulwark Podcast
'The Hottest Circle of Hell Is for Those Who Stay Neutral'
Yeah, I'm voting for my absinthe dealer, not my acid dealer as a cocktail guy. So, all right, let's move on to one final bit here for some crosstalk. I want you guys to talk about your insults to each other, right? Welch, you basically just said that these folks are kind of hysterical and kind of nutty, and you guys have consistently implied that libertarians are childish.
The Bulwark Podcast
'The Hottest Circle of Hell Is for Those Who Stay Neutral'
So are libertarians childish? Are you hysterical and way over the top?
The Bulwark Podcast
'The Hottest Circle of Hell Is for Those Who Stay Neutral'
In the judgment of the American people, both sides are often pretty terrible.
The Bulwark Podcast
'The Hottest Circle of Hell Is for Those Who Stay Neutral'
Oh my God, we don't have any influence.
The Bulwark Podcast
'The Hottest Circle of Hell Is for Those Who Stay Neutral'
Okay, so we've got a whole bunch of really powerful Washington influencers up here. That's what we've established. Oh yeah, tons of influence. Everyone on this stage is incredibly important, and that's why we are gonna move on to our next segment, which is incredibly important and incredibly serious. This is a big debate with real important issues, but it's also a reasoned debate.
The Bulwark Podcast
'The Hottest Circle of Hell Is for Those Who Stay Neutral'
So maybe we're going to approach this in a little bit of a different way. We have asked each of our debaters to pick something, not a side, but a prop. and to make their case via a prop, something that they can show you that they believe makes their case. And they're going to get just 90 seconds to do it. It's basically going to be a TikTok video into their phone, except you are the phone.
The Bulwark Podcast
'The Hottest Circle of Hell Is for Those Who Stay Neutral'
We are going to start with Nick Gillespie, who's going to go up to the podium, and we're going to find out what his prop is. I have no idea what's going to happen here. Yeah, it's very weird, and I guess I shouldn't. And I'm not sure Nick does either.
The Bulwark Podcast
'The Hottest Circle of Hell Is for Those Who Stay Neutral'
so why pick one to discuss these questions tonight we have four top-notch debaters from the bulwark we have sarah longwell and tim miller tim is a tim is a former spokesperson for the republican national committee longwell is the publisher of the bulwark where she hosts the focus group podcast from reason we have nick gillespie and matt welch both of whom are editors at large.
The Bulwark Podcast
'The Hottest Circle of Hell Is for Those Who Stay Neutral'
Matt Welch, what's your prop? You have 90 seconds. Is it a water bottle?
The Bulwark Podcast
'The Hottest Circle of Hell Is for Those Who Stay Neutral'
So if you haven't cast your vote, time's running out. Time's running out. I think it's just about time to start the debate. So we are going to start with opening statements from each of our debaters. It's going to go reason bulwark, reason bulwark the whole night. Reason will have the first word. The bulwark will have the last word.
The Bulwark Podcast
'The Hottest Circle of Hell Is for Those Who Stay Neutral'
Do we want to know what's in that bag?
The Bulwark Podcast
'The Hottest Circle of Hell Is for Those Who Stay Neutral'
I don't believe in health inspectors, but I do hope that one approved this.
The Bulwark Podcast
'The Hottest Circle of Hell Is for Those Who Stay Neutral'
I will not be eating these on stage, but I will be putting them in an old-fashioned later. Okay, so this, maybe a martini. They're super great when you just put weird shit in them. Okay, so this next segment, we are going to bring the audience into the equation. Actually, so you got there first, right? So... If you have a question for our debaters, line up in the middle right here.
The Bulwark Podcast
'The Hottest Circle of Hell Is for Those Who Stay Neutral'
We've got a microphone. You have to come up. You have to come up and speak your question into the microphone.
The Bulwark Podcast
'The Hottest Circle of Hell Is for Those Who Stay Neutral'
Not you, Nick. We'll see how you behave, Nick.
The Bulwark Podcast
'The Hottest Circle of Hell Is for Those Who Stay Neutral'
All right. Let's start with some audience questions here.
The Bulwark Podcast
'The Hottest Circle of Hell Is for Those Who Stay Neutral'
Okay, start with the bulwark.
The Bulwark Podcast
'The Hottest Circle of Hell Is for Those Who Stay Neutral'
And we are going to start with Matt Welch, who will be defending the proposition. You don't have to pick a side in politics.
The Bulwark Podcast
'The Hottest Circle of Hell Is for Those Who Stay Neutral'
I appreciate how this has become a kind of joint editorial meeting. Let's get to... Yeah, we have real bad management. We all love those, right? That's why we got into this job is to have editorial meetings. Let's have another audience question. Hey, what's up?
The Bulwark Podcast
'The Hottest Circle of Hell Is for Those Who Stay Neutral'
I don't really understand the question. Is that the answer? Because we can go on. We've got a lot of questions here.
The Bulwark Podcast
'The Hottest Circle of Hell Is for Those Who Stay Neutral'
Would the presidential election have happened in your best life?
The Bulwark Podcast
'The Hottest Circle of Hell Is for Those Who Stay Neutral'
Okay, I think we've got a bunch of exactlys here and a long, long line of people who want to ask questions.
The Bulwark Podcast
'The Hottest Circle of Hell Is for Those Who Stay Neutral'
Ooh. Next question. Do we have one for the bulwark here?
The Bulwark Podcast
'The Hottest Circle of Hell Is for Those Who Stay Neutral'
I'm so glad we got a zoning question because that's the thing that actually is for the win. Let's zoning. Everybody clap for zoning. Huge applause. All right. We've got time for a couple more questions here. Let's let's move along.
The Bulwark Podcast
'The Hottest Circle of Hell Is for Those Who Stay Neutral'
If lots of people decide not to vote, is that choosing a side? I mean, is that maybe choosing to not choose a side? And what are the implications of that?
The Bulwark Podcast
'The Hottest Circle of Hell Is for Those Who Stay Neutral'
Yes. We can talk about free trade. We're going to do that on our podcast and in Reason Magazine. We have time for one more very quick question. Unfortunately, just one more. We are on a clock.
The Bulwark Podcast
'The Hottest Circle of Hell Is for Those Who Stay Neutral'
Okay. So thank you all for those excellent questions. I apologize to the people who did not get to ask questions, but all of our debaters will be at the bar afterwards. There is an after party. So now we are going to move into our final segment before we get to that party, before the drinking really starts. And this is just going to be closing statements.
The Bulwark Podcast
'The Hottest Circle of Hell Is for Those Who Stay Neutral'
Each side, each person, excuse me, will have two minutes to make a final case. And we are going to start with reason. Is that Matt Welch going to? Yeah, Matt Welch is going to start.
The Bulwark Podcast
'The Hottest Circle of Hell Is for Those Who Stay Neutral'
Tim, closing remarks?
The Bulwark Podcast
'The Hottest Circle of Hell Is for Those Who Stay Neutral'
Sarah Longwell. Take us home.
The Bulwark Podcast
'The Hottest Circle of Hell Is for Those Who Stay Neutral'
All right. So this is now the moment in this debate when you, the audience, have to pick a side again. So you're going to vote a second time. And remember, the winner of the debate will not be the team that has the most support or the least support. But instead, it will be the team that moved the most people towards their position. And so please get out your phones.
The Bulwark Podcast
'The Hottest Circle of Hell Is for Those Who Stay Neutral'
We can take this up at the bar. It's time for you all to vote. So get out your phones and vote. The instructions, I hope, are on the screen behind me. I think it's just a text message. While you're voting, I just want to say... Thank you so much for coming to this very first edition of Reason Versus. You guys were great.
The Bulwark Podcast
'The Hottest Circle of Hell Is for Those Who Stay Neutral'
Also, thank you so much to the Bulwark and to Tim Miller and Sarah Longwell, also to Nick Gillespie and Matt Welch, my friends and colleagues who came down from New York for this. To the Arthur N. Roop Foundation, which provided support for Reason for this series. Okay, let's find out what the results for the initial vote were.
The Bulwark Podcast
'The Hottest Circle of Hell Is for Those Who Stay Neutral'
Right, so we had 30% for the resolution you don't have to pick a side in politics, 45% for you do, and 25% undecided.
The Bulwark Podcast
'The Hottest Circle of Hell Is for Those Who Stay Neutral'
And now, now we're going to find out what happened after the debate with a second vote.
The Bulwark Podcast
'The Hottest Circle of Hell Is for Those Who Stay Neutral'
I am gonna be... When we find out, we're gonna give a prize here. And that prize is gonna be delivered by the one and only Andrew Heaton. So we're gonna bring him out.
The Bulwark Podcast
'The Hottest Circle of Hell Is for Those Who Stay Neutral'
The whole point was to increase the drama here.
The Bulwark Podcast
'The Hottest Circle of Hell Is for Those Who Stay Neutral'
And the bulwark is the winner, moving 21% of the audience towards their side. You guys win? What do you win, Andrew Heaton?
The Bulwark Podcast
'The Hottest Circle of Hell Is for Those Who Stay Neutral'
You guys can divide the prizes however you want. One thing the balloons are for is that at the after party, which we're all going to go to very soon, you're going to be able to find out where the bulwark people are because there's going to be big balloons hanging out above them.
The Bulwark Podcast
'The Hottest Circle of Hell Is for Those Who Stay Neutral'
Thank you all so, so much.
The Bulwark Podcast
'The Hottest Circle of Hell Is for Those Who Stay Neutral'
Thank you, Matt Welch. Since you brought up the Congressional Budget Office, I will just say that I am the moderator, which means I'm asking the questions, not answering them, but it has been about 30 years since we passed all 12 appropriations bills. Sarah Longwell, would you like to make an opening statement? Step on up to the podium.
The Bulwark Podcast
'The Hottest Circle of Hell Is for Those Who Stay Neutral'
I'm Peter Suderman, I'm gonna be your moderator tonight, and full disclosure, I do work at Reason. But I also appear on a podcast that is run through the bulwark, so I'll try to be fair and not take sides. However, that might be a little bit complicated given our resolution, which is you don't have to pick a side in politics. So if I'm not taking sides, am I actually kind of taking sides?
The Bulwark Podcast
'The Hottest Circle of Hell Is for Those Who Stay Neutral'
I think that's the sort of thing that's gonna come up in tonight's debate. Now, because this is a debate, there will be a winner, and that winner will be decided by you, the audience. The way this is gonna work is there are going to be two votes.