Nick Pope
Appearances
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
The thing that I am known for is the UFO job, which is a posting that I had from 1991 through to 1994. Probably the nearest equivalent to the job I was doing, you'd have to go back to the old US Air Force Project Blue Book. If disclosure was easy, we would have done it by now. There must be something that makes this difficult. A secret too terrible to be told.
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
This one, when you ask me which way I incline... On this one, I would incline conventional, you know, I mean, but us. Rendlesham, I would probably incline the other way. And particularly, I mean, Rendlesham is now, this year, what are we? Yeah, 1980. So we're, what, 45 years in the past. You have an aircraft. It's like stealth.
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
People saw the stealth aircraft in, you know, occasionally a pilot would see a stealth aircraft. Yeah. It's 1990, though. You know, the stealth fighter, the F-117... That was publicly declared, I think, 1988, 89, maybe. The Panama operation, perhaps that was.
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
Possibly. I mean, I mentioned the Ministry of Defence was the family firm. My father, before he was Deputy Chief Scientific Advisor, he was the director at the Royal Aeronautical Establishment at Farnborough. And they had, for example, the largest at the time wind tunnel anywhere in the world. He worked on... special projects, on aerodynamics, propulsion systems, aviation historians.
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
When you say how old is stealth technology?
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
I mean, people kind of think when they see pictures of an F-117 stealth fighter or a B-2 stealth bomber, this is 80s technology. Sure, you know, if a pilot saw something like that, it would probably be in the 70s. And you could say, yeah, saw it in the 70s. And by the 80s, it was out there.
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
Yeah, the problem with the skeptical theory with all these cases is the question, well, if that was ours, where is it now? Why aren't I seeing this now? at the Farnborough Air Show or the Paris Air Show or something like that.
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
I mean, stealth technology, most people have no idea that, you know, I think I can say this, the roots of that really go back to research that was being done at the tail end of the Second World War. I mean, people were looking at ways to make things invisible to radar almost as soon as radar itself had been developed. I mean, of course they were.
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
In terms of what was actually developed, again, it took time, but if anyone thinks that stealth is 80s technology, try going back a lot further than that. And so, yeah, the question always becomes, Is it ours or theirs? And, yeah, it's a good question. I don't always have the answer.
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
But I went into this thing called Midit. So, yes. They do try to identify people who they hope will be high flyers, invest in them in terms of giving them good training opportunities, but also posting people to challenging areas where you will, for example, have responsibility...
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
The simple answer to that is I don't know. Had I been doing this job for the U.S. government, I would probably know the answer to that question. But I wasn't, so I don't.
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
Yes, there was one called the Cosford incident. This one I handled in... I mean, there were 600 incidents, but there was another one that was... So I'm just, yeah, yeah. Here's another one. Yeah, no, I obviously, a lot of them are, without wanting to make it sound arrogant, when I joined that section... most cases look different. When I left, a lot of them looked kind of the same.
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
And a lot of them, frankly, were low-level cases.
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
not particularly exciting we didn't necessarily always have good data um you know there's only so much you can do with a lot of the cases sometimes sometimes literally you'll get someone reporting something years after the the event there's nothing you can do then it's like a police case you know the first 48 is is critical yeah and it's critical with ufo investigations just like it's
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
I'm critical with cops because the trail goes cold. People's memories fade, evidence is lost, et cetera. Radar tapes, for example, get reused. At the time, it sounds very low tech now, but when I was doing this job in the 90s, radar data was downloaded onto VHS videocassette
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
And then at the end of the month, you would just, instead of having to keep buying new tapes, you would just record over the old one. So if you had a question, like, we've got a good UFO sighting. Was anything tracked on radar that night? Let's have a look at the tapes. If someone came to you more than a month after a sighting, it would be, I can't answer that question.
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
Sure thing. Nothing's off limits. And I'm, I'm looking forward to this.
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
So, yeah. So, yeah, I handled hundreds of cases, but we're just picking on a handful, A, because of time constraints in our interview, but B, obviously, there's no point in my telling you about... a case where it turned out to be an aircraft.
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
Cosford, yes. This was late on March 31st. No, pardon me. Ah, yes, there we are. That is actually... I wrote that. Remember I said that this is a... I was mentioning that the Ministry of Defence had declassified and released... many of its files on UAP, I wrote that. So when it says at the top, head of SecAS, that is the head of my division, I am writing this to summarise my investigation.
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
That document concludes... This was me being a little subversive. At the time, our public line on this, because we had to downplay this with parliament, media, the public, Our public line, we had a little sound bite that we used. We said UFOs are of no defense significance.
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
Again, it was one of those things where if you ask what does that mean, again, the answer is it means what we want it to mean. Anything you like. It means we try to get people off our backs. our line was, this is of no defence significance, which kind of sometimes was expressed as... there's no threat or there's no evidence of overt hostility. That's kind of a debate you can have.
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
There's actually an equation to define threat. Threat is defined as capability times intent. Well, we applied that to UAP. And we said capability looks pretty darned impressive. Intent We have no idea because we don't know, stealing Lou Elizondo's phrase, we don't know who's behind the wheel. So that's X, unknown.
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
at a younger age than most, for example, whether that responsibility is managing a team or whether it's managing a particular area of the department's business or both. And so I was challenged And again, well, you're a CEO, you know the value of identifying and then developing your internal talent. So I think people are at their best when they're pushed.
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
If you have an unknown in your equation and just the two factors, you can't define, you can't say whether or not there's a threat. But our public line was kind of that there isn't, which I think was a little...
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
misleading to say the least but but going back to cosford the document ended with a quote that was subversive because it flipped the narrative of our public line i finished with a sentence that read in summary there seems to be some evidence that on the night in question a craft of unknown origin was operating over the UK and that this is therefore in and of itself of defence significance.
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
So what I was kind of carefully doing was deconstructing our public line. for my head of division. And my head of division basically said, I concur and briefed it up, his chain of command. Anyway, to tell very briefly the story of the incident itself. There are some similarities with maybe an American case like the Phoenix Lights.
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
Cosford incident took place over a series of about six hours late on March 30th in the early hours of March 31st, 1993. Dozens of witnesses, if not hundreds. Most people, of course, at the time didn't come forward at all because of fear of the stigma of speaking out, fear of not being believed, fear of the ridicule, whatever it is.
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
A lot of those witnesses were police officers and military personnel because a lot of this happened in the early hours of the morning. One of the earlier witnesses was leading a troop of scouts, I think, on an evening hike, and they all saw something which he described as like two Concorde aircraft flying kind of joined together.
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
A lot of people saw something, again, triangular-shaped, diamond-shaped, one military cadet was walking home. He heard something. At first he thought it was a motorcycle. Then he thought, but the sound seems to be coming from the sky. He looked up, didn't see anything except the stars. And then one by one, the stars disappeared.
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
disappeared and he thought well it's i guess it's low cloud and then he looked in disbelief and realized it wasn't low cloud that a huge triangular craft the size of a football field or bigger was directly overhead and was blocking out the light from the stars wow This thing was often heard emitting a low frequency humming sound that some witnesses who got quite close said was quite unpleasant.
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
You could feel it reverberate through your body. Again, like the radiation. I don't think this is deliberate. I think this is a byproduct, a side effect of something, maybe propulsion system, maybe something else.
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
I lean towards this not being ours. Okay. And here's why. One of the military witnesses who probably got closer than... almost anyone else, maybe not as close as the military cadet that I was mentioning with the stars blacking out one by one, but this particular military officer, because this craft flew directly over two Air Force bases. Okay.
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
This particular military officer, who also was the last person In chronological order, he was the last person to see it. I mentioned these sightings took place over a series of six hours. His sighting at 2.40 in the morning was the last one on our file. Okay. He said... And he was a meteorological officer.
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
So his job is to look at things in the sky, usually cloud formations, and to make assessments of heights and things and all of that. And, of course, he's deployed to all sorts of different bases over the years. Sometimes fast jet bases, sometimes helicopter bases. He sees this thing coming towards him slowly, maybe 30 or 40 miles an hour. low frequency humming sound.
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
And when I became a manager myself, as I rose up the chain, I was always a believer that people worked best under pressure, when you challenge them, and that sometimes if you've got someone who... I don't know, you... There are two ways that their career goes. Take a chance on them. Promote them. And I did that a couple of times.
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
He first sees it through his office window. Then he goes outside. He's looking just in disbelief, just frozen to the spot looking. 30 or 40 miles an hour, this thing comes towards him. It emits a beam of light, narrow beam of light, that hits the ground and tracks backwards and forwards, almost as if it was searching for something.
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
I didn't talk about this when we were discussing Rendlesham, but Colonel Holt described a similar thing. When he went out, I mentioned Rendlesham on the first night the thing landed, John Burroughs, Jim Penniston got up close and personal. The second night, there were other witnesses. The third night, it came back and Colonel Holt saw it. Didn't land again. That was just first night.
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
But on that third night where Colonel Holt and a team of six people were in the forest, having been told that it had come back, he saw a narrow beam of light fire down at the ground in front of him. And he, in later years, when asked about this, he said... I was asking myself, was this a weapon? Was this a warning? Was this communication? And so that happened in Rendlesham.
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
And Colonel Holt, deputy base commander, he was at the time, I think, the highest ranking military officer to have reported seeing a UAP whilst on duty and made an official report. Cosford, this meteorological officer, sees a very similar thing, only he sees something else. weird. Normally a light comes on and then it switches off. It might get dimmer or brighter, but it's either on or off.
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
He said that the light fired down at the ground tracked backwards as if it was looking for something, but then the beam retracted Like maybe I'm not sure if I'm kind of describing this. It's like the speed of light, which is obviously 186,000 miles a second. So as you would witness it, it's instantaneous. It's like the speed of light was slowed down
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
at an impossible order of magnitude so that the light almost retracted back slowly up the beam, if that makes any sense.
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
Once it had completely retracted, and this thing was virtually stationary at that point, it then accelerated away to the horizon in an instant. And when I interviewed him, just probably... He called in, I interviewed him over the phone, probably no more than six hours after the event. I probably spoke to him eight or nine in the morning. His voice was still shaking with emotion.
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
And he said, Nick, I've been in the Air Force eight years. I have never seen or experienced anything like that in my life. And so, you know, you have a story like that, 1993, and you're like, okay, if we could do that, if you believe that aerospace tech runs, you know, let's say 10, 15 years ahead of what's publicly declared, where is that now? Where's that technology? And here's another thing.
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
No sonic boom. That's something Lou Elizondo put into the conversation where he coined the phrase or popularized, I don't know whether he invented it, but he talked about the five observables of UAP. Things that... To be UAP as viewed by government, something needs to be both unidentified and anomalous. You know, lots of things can be unidentified. Sure.
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
I mean, you can see a light in the sky and it might be unidentified. And so in strictness, it's a UAP. But if you're talking about the core phenomenon... It's got to be both unidentified and anomalous. It's got to do something unusual, not just be something that you can't tell what it is.
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
So accelerating from a virtual hover or very slow speed to multiple times the speed of sound with no sonic boom is anomalous. Therefore, it's one of these so-called five observables. Transmedium travel. The ability to move seamlessly from the air to the water, as some UAP do, is another one. These are things. So this happened with Cosford.
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
I found people who, you know, I was lucky enough to work with some brilliant, brilliant people, some of whom had been sort of languishing at a lower grade. And I thought, here's someone who's just not – they're not on the face of it necessarily doing – Why not? Because they're not being challenged. Bring them up a grade or two. And I worked with some amazing people who had that situation.
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
We nearly caused a diplomatic incident on this because I mentioned the fine line between are we talking about true UAP from somewhere else or are we talking about classified aerospace tech? Right. So, of course, part of any investigation, part of my investigation with Cosford, part of what was going on with Calvin is we ask the Americans, hey, guys, is this your tech?
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
And if so, why don't we know about it? And can we have some so we can build our own? Because these things make our fast jets look like kids' toys. And the answer came back from the United States government, no, not us. Interestingly, they then asked us, you know, we've been having some reports.
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
Life is busy, uh, which is good. I enjoy working. Uh, so obviously, uh, today here filming with you, which is, is great to come to Florida. Um, and do that.
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
Have you Brits got any kind of triangular or diamond-shaped thing that can... Now, maybe that was a clever double bluff, but we didn't think so. But... The Secretary of the Air Force at the time, Don Rice, he told Congress, there was a rumor that there was a secret prototype, secret hypersonic prototype aircraft, a replacement for the SR-71 Blackbird aircraft.
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
And there was a rumor that it was codenamed Aurora. And there was a rumor that it was being test flown, obviously, at Area 51, but also in the UK, that they were flying it transatlantic to see how it worked on long distance flights, but transatlantic so it could fly over the ocean without people seeing it.
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
and that it would land at RAF Macrihanish in Scotland, not far from, you know, if traveling at hypersonic speeds, this is an artist's impression based on some sightings and speculations. Yeah. And so there was this rumor and Don Rice said, no, there's no Aurora. This is a rumor. And we asked in relation to Calvin and in relation to Cosford, of course, we were saying, look, is this your tech?
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
Because there's a document, I mean, I joke about it, but there's a document in the declassified files from our intelligence people. Actually, it's one of my colleagues writing to me about setting up this program this intelligence assessment that I mentioned earlier in the intelligence assessment that we did of the phenomenon.
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
When we were planning this, I'd moved on by the time it was started, so I didn't write it or take part in it, but there was a line when we were talking about setting it up, what was the justification? The justification was it said we could use this technology if it exists. And of course we wanted the tech. Didn't matter to us whether it was American or alien or whatever it was.
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
But clearly, as I mentioned, it made our fast jets look like kids toys. And we knew because some of our pilots had chased these things. Yeah. Now turns out, of course, we know from people like Ryan Graves and Ann Dietrich and some others, we know that Americans have been chasing these things themselves. Some of the speeds, maneuvers and accelerations that they report just staggering.
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
I mean, you can say next generation, right? But, you know, come on. Like some of this is, it's not just a faster, more maneuverable aircraft. This is something so above and beyond that it changes the way you incline. Well, the diplomatic incident that we caused was when we asked the Americans in relation to Cosford and Calvin, hey, guys, is this yours? They said, no.
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
And then they told Congress, no, no, you know, we don't have an Aurora. And then someone in British intelligence, because they just couldn't face the idea that this might be extraterrestrial, NHI, whatever, they were like, I can't intellectually go down that road, so it must be the Americans, made the mistake of asking again implying that they didn't believe the assurances that had been given.
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
And I was challenged like that very early. Now, I don't think that was necessarily... a prerequisite for the UFO job, but it certainly came in handy.
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
And the message was relayed back to us that Donald Rice was, I think the quote was, incandescent with rage at the suggestion he had misled Congress. And it was like, this is, yeah, you get yourself in big trouble with this. But I remember, you know, in, of course we asked with all of this, You ask yourself, is it aerospace tech? And if it is, is it our own?
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
Well, you know, you can have a high security clearance and the need to know, but nobody has read into every program. So is it our own? Is it an ally program? Or is it an adversary? And I remember going to an intelligence briefing one time on... If you go back... If we can go back to the Calvin pictures again. But those... Somebody pulled out that picture. And they said, yeah, again...
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
one or more of the six originals was pulled out. And the intelligence officer leading the briefing said, he said, take that picture, for example. He said, look at that, look at that. He said, that's not ours. We know that's not ours, i.e. British information. And then he started gesticulating. Intelligence officers don't often get animated or excited.
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
And he was a very quiet man, a very thoughtful man. I'd hardly ever heard him raise his voice, but he did on this occasion. He said, see that? He said, because my boss was... was pushing back a bit, being a little bit sceptical about this intelligence assessment. He said, see that photo? He said, and he started pointing. He pointed over to one side. He said, it's not the Americans.
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
And he flipped over the other side. He pointed the other way. He said, it's not the Russians. And he said, and that only leaves one possibility. And he pointed straight up and me and my boss, we looked at him and looked at his finger. We looked up at the ceiling. You know, it's like almost comedy. You can't help.
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
And then we looked back at him and we looked at each other and nothing further was said because this is, It's like a dance, a little intellectual dance. Nobody in the system... will come out and say things like alien or extraterrestrial.
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
It is almost exactly what I expected. At the time, three years was pretty much average. And I was in the junior managerial grade. And by that time, I was hoping to get to the next grade up. And I thought, if I do three years here and I do well... I will be in the running for a promotion to the grade of what we called HEO, higher executive officer. And that's exactly what happened.
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
Yeah, well, I guess now we have NHI, non-human intelligence. Right, that's true. Here's what this intelligence officer said. He just used the phrase, these people. And he said, these people, they operate these craft, they run rings around the cutting edge of our tech. We don't know what these people are. We don't know what these people want.
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
We don't know what, and you know, when my boss and I were walking back, Again, my boss, he was more skeptical than me. And he said to me, interesting briefing, Nick. And I said, yeah, boss. And he said, but Nick, he said, there's one thing troubling me. I said, yeah, what's that, boss? And he said, well, all through the briefing, he kept talking about these people.
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
And he stopped and we were literally walking down the street in Whitehall and he stopped me and he stared at me and he said, who are these people? And I said, boss, that's the question, isn't it?
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
And that's kind of how it is in government sometimes. You dance, you go up to the line, but you can't quite bring yourself to go over it somehow. It's... It's like a love that dare not speak its name.
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
And that's UAP.
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
It dared not speak its name. Yeah. Although now... That's changing. We do now speak its name, and currently its name is NHI. But whether we will actually get a different name, a better name, a more accurate name, and more importantly, an explanation... of why that name, that I don't know.
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
But the way things are going, the rate of events, the way things are unfolding, if we'd been doing this interview just a week ago, we wouldn't have been talking about one of these whistleblowers and one of these videos, the egg. If we're doing this interview a week time, I guarantee something else
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
It's moving that quickly.
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
I sometimes say to people, I don't know what's coming next, in all the details, but I think it's something where I would give people some advice. That advice would be buckle up because we're going on one heck of a ride. And I think we'll see more whistleblowers. We'll see more videos and photos. We will have more congressional engagement. We have yet to see what happens
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
Trump's second term will deliver for this subject, but some promises have been made and some hints have been dropped. So we will see. But what I also say to people is, and this is just based on more general life advice, is expect the unexpected. Expect the things that come suddenly and unexpectedly from left field and upend everything. And that's where I think we might be going.
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
Expect a few surprises. Expect some more dirty tricks. Like I say, at one point, at some point, I think they will go after one of these whistleblowers through the criminal justice system. Like, we will wake up and find that one of the names that we know has been arrested. On another occasion, I wouldn't... Well, here's a dirty trick. You put someone up... who kind of is doing a job for you.
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
He does have a background, but their job is to go out and put out a story. I discussed earlier disguising, changing an element to mask the identity of a source in the system. Another, this is a dirty, that's a tactic. A dirty trick would be to put someone up to come out with a story which is completely fabricated. They do it to draw in Congress, to draw in the mainstream media.
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
They support this story. Three months later, it turns out they say this person is a complete imposter. Now, actually, they're an asset or they're just doing a job, whatever it is, but expect... one of the flagship cases or whistleblowers to be completely discredited, but then ask yourself, is that actually part of the plan? Was he a plant in the first place? Yeah.
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
So it was pretty much on track.
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
So that might happen at some point. Yeah.
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
I do, and it's on a subject that a lot of people might not expect from me. People hear, oh, Nick Pope's got a new film. I have written some films before. I tend, I do a lot of TV. So I'm on a lot of shows like Ancient Aliens and History's Greatest Mysteries, those sorts of things. But obviously they're great shows.
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
But you do an interview and they just use some parts of that interview and there are other contributors and then there's a narrator and they tell a story, but it's not necessarily your story. It's commenting on other things. So occasionally I like to step out of that world and write my own material.
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
So, for example, when the New York Times first ran the story about AATIP and the US Navy videos and everything that went with that, I thought I'd like to have a go at telling that story. And I wrote a film called Aliens at the Pentagon. And then I wrote a film, I said I created a series on societal impact of disclosure. I also made a film called Indistinguishable from Magic.
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
speculating about things like UAP technologies and what they might bring. And that was a derivation of the classic Arthur C. Clarke quote that any sufficiently advanced technology will be indistinguishable from magic. Right, right, right. And so everyone is probably thinking to themselves, Nick Pope's got a new film. Oh, yeah, I've seen some of his other ones. It's obviously about UAP.
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
It's not about UAP. It is about COVID. Or specifically, it is about the official response to COVID, which I believe was majorly mishandled. I believe that we were operating on a false narrative or rather a misleading narrative of that everyone's at risk when the data very quickly and very clearly showed that everyone was not at risk.
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
Only a very small group of people were at risk of serious health outcome. And that was the elderly, the immunocompromised and the obese, and often people who fell into two or actually often all three of those categories. So a smart strategy might have been to adapt your healthcare measures to those very specific groups of people at genuine risk. And yet that's not what we did. Worse...
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
we bet the farm on a handful of measures, lockdowns, masks, vaccines, and school closures, which turned out to be- Business closures. Business closures as well, closures across the board, that turned out to be the most divisive Not to mention expensive. I mean, people, as you know better than I, lost their livelihoods, their businesses, their jobs, whatever. So expensive, huge cost.
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
It's difficult to say because there are similarities in terms of obviously we were the subject matter experts on UAP. There were differences, though. We were a public-facing program, and obviously a lot of the work we did was unclassified because, to quote Avi Loeb, you can't classify the skies. And so most of our reports of UAP came in from the public.
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
Absolutely. And things that are in the news a lot, like the staggeringly low rate of federal employees who were actually working from their offices, is largely a legacy of COVID. My wife is a professor emeritus, but when she was at her university, before retirement, she was saying we have still not returned to anything like pre-COVID normality.
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
A lot of things are still done online when so much of the learning experience comes from genuine face-to-face human contact and interaction that you just don't get on a Zoom call. So... Those measures that were instigated were expensive, both in terms of the consequences that we're still seeing now, both, you know, financially, obviously hugely expensive. It costs literally trillions of dollars.
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
Also expensive in terms of human rights. I mean, I think this set human rights back a generation. And yet the data now show, and showed maybe not at the absolute outset, as the data did show who was at risk, but the data fairly quickly showed that pretty much as soon as we had the vaccine, and I think Operation Warp Speed Drive, actually was one of the few success stories of the pandemic.
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
And even though I know there are a lot of vaccine skeptics out there, I mean, I think if you're genuinely at risk, I think it's well worth taking the vaccine to leverage the odds. But if you're not... If, like most people, you're really only at risk of catching something with flu or cold-like symptoms, why mandate those people the moment you find out that vaccine doesn't stop transmission?
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
So whether it was mandates or indeed, I mean, the cloth masks that everyone was mandated to use, again, we now know from the Cochrane case
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
meta-analysis, we know from the Danish mask study, we know from the British government study that the Department of Education did that led to the unmasking of kids in schools, that it really only had a statistically insignificant effect on health outcomes, whether that's lowering mortality rates or whether it's halting community spread. Same with lockdowns. Again,
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
And again, there are published studies on all of this showing how not only was it statistically insignificant benefit, but huge financial, civil liberties cost, huge opportunity cost. I mean, what the heck could we have done with those trillions of dollars that were spent? And this is a story that we've really not told. As COVID disappears into the rearview mirror,
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
maybe out of embarrassment or just, God, I don't want to go back there. We've not gone back. We've not done that soul searching and said, look, all the things that we did, all the mandates, vaccines, lockdowns, masks, school and business closures, were hugely expensive, largely didn't work, set civil liberties back a generation, and yet we're all expected to kind of forget about it and move on.
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
Oh, that's all right then. Well, no, it isn't. Firstly, there needs to be accountability. And if anyone made bad decisions, They need to be held to account for them if they were bad faith and to learn from them if they were good faith but bad decisions. And part of every single military operation that is ever done is the lessons learned exercise that comes afterwards.
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
It's not just so that we can tell the story accurately for history, so that our history is accurate, which is important. Knowledge for the sake of knowledge is important. I'm a passionate believer in that. But it's doubly important because there will be another pandemic. And two things with that.
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
So actually, to answer your question, probably the nearest equivalent to the job I was doing, you'd have to go back to the old US Air Force Project Blue Book. Now, we did also in parallel do some classified work. So that's why I say there are some similarities. And of course, I've met people like Jay Stratton, who headed up the UAP task force. when that was a thing prior to Arrow.
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
It's part of it. Human nature, it's hardwired into us. Yeah. Part of it is political. Yeah.
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
We divided on broadly partisan lines. This is a generalization, but generally speaking, the left came down more on the side of the mandates, the right and libertarians the other way. Also, I think, so that's part of it. So there's, again, half the population said,
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
is going to kind of still believe ideologically, because it became party political, in their masks and their lockdowns and their vaccine mandates. And anyone who challenges that is, that's just, you're a right-wing nut job, you're a conspiracy theorist. You know, the phrase, this is one of the big things I think,
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
talk about in the film is the censorship, the way in which we were not allowed to have an open and honest conversation during the pandemic. Dissenting voices were censored, deplatformed, shadow banned. Phrases like natural immunity were dishonestly slurred as being right-wing dog whistles. Ideas like lab leak were seen as kind of conspiracy theories.
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
Yeah, and yet, if you go onto the website of the Office of the Director of National Intelligence and read their latest assessment, on the origins of COVID, of those 18 parts of the US intelligence community, some parts think that it was zoonotic emergence naturally from animal to human, making the species jump. Others say, no, we believe it was a lab leak.
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
And others say, we don't have enough data to make a firm assessment. And yet, at the time, we were told that lab leak was some right-wing conspiracy theory. And now the official position of the US intelligence community is that some parts of the agency say that's exactly what happened. And so that's one thing. So that was important.
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
Yeah. It's It's like a generational weather event. It is, it is. It's like the time we had snow in Tucson. Right. And it was on top of the Saguaro cacti and things. Right, right. It was like crazy.
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
The Great Barrington Declaration was a legitimate idea about an alternative solution that we would target help and resources on those people genuinely at serious risk and everyone else would be free to lead their lives that way.
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
so many people would have effectively caught either a cold or nothing at all, particularly after the mutation to mild strains like Omicron, that then it would be far less likely because that natural immunity would build up in the community that actually those at risk wouldn't get it. But again, censored. It was dishonestly smeared as let it rip when it was deliberately designed as a compromise.
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
Everyone remembers the phrase, you're killing grandma. You want to kill grandma. To anyone who dared question the narrative. Fear, shame, control. Fear, shame, control. And so that happened. We never had a conversation about obesity because the media...
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
was so politically correct in not wanting to fat shame that it kind of lost sight of the fact that if you actually encouraged people to lose weight, it was one of the very few things, given that the vaccine didn't stop transmission, it was one of the very few things that you could do to leverage the odds in your conversation. But we never had this. And this matters.
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
Yeah, it matters because of the next pandemic. It matters because when that, and it's when, not if. Firstly, a lot of people, half the people won't listen to any healthcare advice they get ever again on a pandemic just because they'll think, fool me once, shame on me. Fool me twice, shame on you. And that's a bad thing because sometimes the health advice is right, right?
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
And I've met people like Lou Elizondo, of course, who had that investigative and policy role in relation to UAP sitting in the Pentagon. So yeah, the similarities and differences.
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
And, you know, look, I mean, the polio vaccine is one of the great success stories in modern history. If we have a bird flu pandemic, if we get something like the polio vaccine for that, people should be lining up for it. But if healthcare measures like cloth masks and lockdowns don't work and they didn't work, for COVID, then we don't want just to repeat the same mistakes.
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
So my film, Apocalypse COVID, isn't really about COVID. It's about the failed response to COVID. Now, there have been some dramas. Our first distributor pulled out. This is still... And nobody, to go back to your question about why we don't have this conversation. Yeah, part of it is human nature.
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
I don't want... No one wants to admit that they walked around with a mask on their face for two years, frankly, for nothing. Because they feel... darn stupid, as well they might. And people who mandated that they do that sort of thing should be torn down from any position of authority, not literally, but metaphorically, voted out of office if they're a public employee, fired.
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
And yet we're not having this conversation. So it's still a touchy subject. There are still people who will... Kind of condemn this as a conspiracy film. It isn't. Every single fact in this documentary, as I go along, I give, I mean, I wrote this out as a 12,000...
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
word script and then i went into the studio and i narrated it every when i quote when i say uh this study on masks this a scientific paper on lockdowns every single thing i cite i i give the name of the publication the date of the publication it's all it's all cited properly but Yeah, it was like our first distributor pulled out. There has been some reluctance.
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
Fortunately, Peter Thiel's Hereticon gave the film its world premiere. It is now getting some mainstream media coverage, but there are still people that say, oh, this is just some right-wing conspiracy nonsense.
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
Well, it is on Amazon. People can find it there. We're still in the process of getting it onto other streaming platforms. Obviously, at some stage, I hope that this will get onto television and that this will be shown as... a documentary, because my aim in this is to... When Lou Elizondo came out on UAP, somebody asked him, what are you trying to do?
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
He said, I want to help kickstart a conversation... that the American people can have about this interesting and important subject. I want my film Apocalypse COVID to kickstart the national and maybe international conversation we should be having about the failed response to COVID so that our response for the next pandemic is more effective. Because that's the real reason why this matters.
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
Because that is literally... a matter of life and death. But if half the population aren't going to listen to the advice because public trust in healthcare institutions is shattered, or a large part of the population believe that, then we are going to have a very ineffective take-up
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
I'm not. I'm not. If I did... Look, there are probably... not two more subjects that could get you more criticized than UAP. And bear in mind, having done UAP from the inside, in a lot of people's minds, I'm the bad guy here. I'm the villain. You can go onto the internet and find conspiracy theories that say I'm still secretly working for the government.
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
Yes, I can. And that's a question people often say, well, am I a whistleblower? And I'm like, no, absolutely not. I can, I can talk about things publicly. that are unclassified and things that have been declassified. So I'm absolutely not a whistleblower and would never discuss any classified information without lawful authority. So we got 200 or 300 UFO reports each year.
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
So, you know, Nick Pope is a shill, Nick Pope is still on the payroll. I hear that about half of my guests, that they're working for the government. Yeah. Now, let me tell you who is. No, I'm joking. So, yeah, UAP is a difficult subject to do. And COVID is, yeah, absolutely. It's difficult. But I believe...
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
Both these subjects are absolutely, they're difficult, but they are both interesting and important. And that's why I'm not going to back down. That's why I'm going to carry on doing what I do. I see my role now as a communicator. My time, my government time is obviously in the past. notwithstanding the conspiracy theories.
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
But I am fortunate enough through my work to have a mainstream news media platform, and I am going to use it. I am going to use it as a communicator. Not because I am arrogantly setting myself up as somebody who has all the answers. My goodness, I don't. But I do have some questions. And I think other people should have some questions too about the response to COVID, about UAP.
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
And so I'm going to carry on.
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
Yeah, we need to depoliticize it somehow. Same with UAP. I mean, UAP, we don't want that. I talked about how that was bipartisan. We need to keep that bipartisan. And we need to somehow depoliticize COVID. And even though it's uncomfortable, and that gets to the heart of it, people don't like uncomfortable situations, but people need to be put into that uncomfortable space. We need... Life...
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
isn't about taking on, whether it's me making a film or you tackling a subject on a podcast or in your business life. Life, you know, the easy decisions is not what it's all about. Sometimes the important things are taking the hard decisions, whether those are business decisions or whether they're decisions about... subjects to speak out on, to make a documentary about.
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
You've got to find the interesting questions, but you've got to find the difficult conversations. And sometimes you've just got to bite the bullet and have those conversations.
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
No, I mean, as is always the case, we'll end the interview and we'll be walking out of the room and I'll be like, oh shoot, I should have told him about the spaceship that we have or something like that. But no, joking aside, I think that we really covered a lot of fascinating ground and we went into some areas that I've... not gotten into before in other interviews.
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
So I'm very grateful to you for leading this conversation and asking those questions. And it was a two-way process, but I really believe that we hit a lot of points. People like COVID, like UAP, not everyone will agree and that's fine. I don't want to police how people think. I mean, I mentioned earlier, I'm very libertarian in my, my leadings.
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
And of course, you know, UFO is the language that we use to the public. UAP is what we use. said internally. There's an interesting story about that. Even back then you were saying... We were saying UAP. UAP, really? Now the history, the term UAP, I... I think some researcher turned up a US document going back to 1948 that used the phrase, but it fell out of use.
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
I don't want to tell people whether it's COVID or UAP, believe this, believe that, but you know, watch the film and decide for yourself. Look at, look at the UAP. And I think this interview, this conversation, we have gone to a lot of places. I'm sure people will be watching kind of shaking their fist at the screen or whatever it is and saying, no, no, I completely disagree.
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
Well, good, good for them. But let's have that conversation.
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
My website is nickpope.net. Okay. And this will really get conspiracy theories that I'm still secretly working for the government. My handle on X, formerly known as Twitter, is at Nick Pope M-O-D. Okay. M-O-D, Ministry of Defense. Ministry of Defense, sure. But yeah, at Nick Pope M-O-D. Okay. And I tend to... When a UAP-related story breaks... It's X where I tend to post that.
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
The website is more of a resource for people wanting to do sort of background on my government work on UAP. X is where I kind of tend to put my current thoughts on breaking stories.
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
I have, I think I've got about 120,000 people. That's a big following. Something like that. It goes up all the time. I guess if I kind of get to have a conversation with Elon Musk or, you know, President Trump or Joe Rogan, I'll get a few more. followers. Well, this one is big.
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
But at the moment, yeah, I'm sitting on about 120,000. So that's why I try to post, you know, at least something every day, sometimes multiple points. And I try and respond to people when I can. Obviously, you know, with just the sheer volume, you can only scratch the surface with that. But But I do genuinely try to interact and reply.
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
No, well, thank you. I hope I didn't talk too much. It's just difficult, A, because there's such a lot to discuss, and B, as you can tell, I'm passionate about these subjects because they're interesting and important.
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
Should I open this on air or should I take it back with me?
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
Thank you very much. Yeah, you're very welcome. Much appreciated. Absolutely.
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
Well, no, it will grow and grow because it was your production values and your skills as a podcaster. It looks easy and I've been on a lot of podcasts, but as you know, it's not easy. And I... turned down for that reason and for time constraints, most of the requests. But when I got your invitation, I dipped in to your interviews and I thought, hey, this guy knows his stuff.
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
He's asking some really interesting questions and he's taking the guests to some, and of course, more importantly, the audience. to some really interesting places. So thank you for having me and doing this, and thank you for your hospitality. And like I say, I hope I wasn't talking too much.
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
We resurrected it in the early 90s in the UK Ministry of Defence, and we resurrected it very deliberately and purposefully to rebrand the subject. And we did this because the subject had attracted so much pop culture baggage that we couldn't get it treated seriously. The stigma. Yeah, exactly. And I'm not saying with the public. I'm saying internally because we treated this...
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
And who knows, maybe if we do it a little down the line, we will be having that post-disclosure societal impact. And your first question will be, well, Nick, now the news about the NHI is out, what's changed for you?
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
But secondly, come on, man. I mean, we'd have nothing to talk about. We would have so many things to talk about. The post-disclosure, post...
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
as a defense national security and safety of flight issue. But we often struggled even with our own command structure to get the resources because people would just say, oh, UFOs. So we sat down, I sat down with my opposite number And we deliberately planned a rebranding.
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
Because to give you an example, if you wanted to go and brief SecDef and say, I'd like 20 minutes of SecDef's time to talk about UAP. you'll maybe get a meeting. If prior to the rebranding, if you'd say, I'd like to go and talk to SecDef about UFOs, it would be, I'm sorry, his schedule's full at the moment. So we used UAP. Then what happened was that in about...
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
2011 so after i had left the ministry of defense and i i was just doing freelance work i got a call asking me to come over to washington dc and i sat in a room with some fairly influential people including a former chief of staff of of a former president of the united states
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
But last week I was in Los Angeles filming for a TV show, and next week I'm going back to L.A. for a different TV show. And, of course, they've got the terrible fires there. So it's nothing personal. This stuff isn't anything to do with me. It's not following me around or anything. But, yeah, so I'm busy with that. My new...
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
a former cia director um i'm not going to name the names but you and and listeners can probably figure out who those individuals might have been because they have commented on on this topic And I briefed them on history of the UK government's program, some of the flagship cases like Rendlesham Forest and the Calvin incident. And then I briefed them on the rebranding of... UFO to UAP.
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
And that was the thing that they were most interested in. And then fast forward to 2016, I'm watching TV. It's the presidential campaign, Donald Trump, Hillary Clinton. Hillary Clinton is doing an interview on, I think, Jimmy Kimmel. And he asks her about UFOs. And she interrupts and said, no, no, it's not UFOs, it's UAP. And I thought, hey, wait a minute, that's what happened.
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
That's what that meeting was about, or at least part of it. And sure enough, when somebody asked a U.S., Navy spokesperson about all this, once the story of AATIP and the US Navy videos was in the public domain courtesy of the New York Times in December 2017, they said, where did you get the term UAP?
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
And the spokesperson for the US Navy, who was handling this at the time, US Navy spokesperson said, it's a term we borrowed from the Brits. And I thought, yeah, and I know which Brit you mean.
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
I am the reason. I don't claim, like I say, I did not invent it, but myself and an unnamed opposite number in defense intelligence, we between us resurrected it. And that through my work with some of these people led to this kind of being the way that this was rolled out in the US.
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
Very much so. There is unprecedented congressional engagement.
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
One of the great things is in this divided world and nation, how bipartisan the support for UAP is. I mean, can people imagine any other subject where you would have AOC sitting next to Tim Burchett talking about how we need to hold government to account and figure out what we're dealing with here. And so, yeah, you've got Democrats like Kirsten Gillibrand, Republicans like Marco Rubio.
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
It's great.
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
Yeah, I've heard this. There is a narrative going around that, you know, a small group of high-profile Republicans has blocked some of this. That is not entirely a narrative I agree with. Firstly, out of... Well, firstly... They didn't block disclosure, which is the narrative coming from some parts of the UFO community.
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
They blocked the Schumer-Rounds Amendment, which was to have gone into the current National Defense Authorization Act. And it did have multiple UAP-related provisions. But one of the reasons that was blocked is it's not necessarily that these people are in tight with Lockheed and Lockheed are gatekeepers for this. I don't know whether that's true or not.
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
Film COVID Apocalypse has just been recently released and I'm doing a few interviews on that as well. And then fairly shortly, the Ancient Aliens Live stage show will resume after it's Christmas and New Year break. And we will be on the road again. I'll be off with Giorgio Tsoukalos, William Henry, and Jason Martel. And we've got 13 shows coming up in different cities around the US.
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
One of the reasons there was opposition to this was that there was, for example, a principle of eminent domain there. written into this and it said that if any of this technology is in the private sector, government is then mandated to come and take it back. And the UFO community were kind of supporting this, like it was a good thing. And a few people were saying, well, wait a minute.
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
You know, it sounds like a good thing, but really it's a little bit farcical. It's like the government saying, please, can we have our spaceship back, if that's what you believe, that somebody somewhere has...
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
crashed or landed craft and and of course that is a narrative we've heard from whistleblowers and i'm sure we'll get into that but but the idea that you would want to if if you push the ufo community on this and say well wait a minute are you really saying that that you want this to
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
given back to the very people that that you believe have been gatekeepers of this secret for nearly 80 years i.e the government like and you're saying that this is a good thing quite apart from the fact that as somebody who tends to take a quite a libertarian view on on a lot of
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
I'm not that keen on the idea that the government should come and take our stuff, whether it's your house or whether it's NHI craft or artifacts or whatever it is that we've acquired. So I don't agree that... that this has been blocked for quite the reasons some people think.
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
Sure. I mean, it is whatever we're dealing with. I mean, I think it's real. I mean, I think that kind of debate has played itself out. And it's now, when I first got involved in this, it was a sort of, is it or isn't it? Right.
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
think we've moved from that to a it is but what is it kind of and and again to go back to your previous question none of this i think would have happened without that rebranding from ufo to uap because that was no no congressional representative was was gonna touch this it was like a third rail but
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
But the moment it was UAP and Defence National Security and Safety of Flight, all these people felt able to grip it and started asking questions. And when they started asking questions, they turned up the fact that, yeah, despite the denials, they're... had been and were programs.
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
And so, yeah, both the Senate and the House, the armed services committees, the intelligence committees, the oversight committees pushed and are still pushing and found some of these people. And I've met to pick up this point about the whistleblowers that you mentioned. Now, I've not met David Grush. And people say, oh, well, it's, you know, skeptics will say it's secondhand information.
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
Well, wait, you know, I have met Jay Stratton a couple of times, two or three times. And the reason, I don't think this is fully appreciated. The reason David Grush... to 40 people about this isn't because he was doing some sort of side project or had some personal interest. Jay Stratton, when he was heading up the UAP task force, gave him that job. He said to David Grush, go into...
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
all 18 constituent parts of the US intelligence community. I mean, he was already in the IC, of course, at more senior level than people seem to realize, I think. Jay gave him that tasking. He said, go into all the nooks and crannies, find out who's doing this, what program or programs do we have and go talk to these people. And so that's what happened. But absolutely, these people are patriots.
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
These people are heroes, I think, but they're heroes because for the most part, as far as I'm aware, they are not, which I would condemn, leaking classified information. They are going through the process and they are saying, look, if I'm going to do an interview or something or if I'm going to write something, I will go.
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
to DOPSA, the Defense Office of Pre-Publication and Security Review, because even if you are sort of sitting in the intelligence community and you're thinking, hey, the public have a right to know, You need to know who the subject matter expert is and then what is the damage assessment if that is leaked. Because, of course, people say, oh, it's a great thing to tell the American people this.
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
Yeah, the one that I was doing last week is Unbelievable with Dan Aykroyd. Cool. So did an interview on a whole bunch of kind of just weird and wonderful stories. Some of them can be mystery orientated. Some of them are just kind of quirky things from history. It's great fun. And next week, my LA trip is going to be Ancient Aliens. We're shooting the new series of that. Nice.
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
But the moment you tell the American people this, you also tell the government in China and Russia and... North Korea and Iran and anywhere really. So you do have to be careful, particularly if we are dealing with advanced technologies. Almost anything can be weaponized, particularly if it's something that generates large amounts of energy.
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
And if what we're talking about is what people think it is or might be, if it does come from a non-human intelligence, whether that's extraterrestrial, interdimensional, whatever it is, one of the few good assumptions you can make is it's going to be to do what it does, to get here from there. in a way that we can't. It's going to somehow generate a lot of energy, and that can be weaponized.
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
So these people have to be careful. There is a line, and as far as I'm aware, they're not crossing it. But they're saying, let's have a conversation about how much of this we can responsibly reveal. And exactly as you said, David Grush has put his hand on the Bible in Congress and testified under oath. If any of that is not true, he has perjured himself, and that is an offense.
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
Let me tell you exactly what happened with that. It's an interesting story. David Grosh came out with his testimony, and I'm not going to name names, but again, I think this is in the public domain. A particular journalist wrote, ran a story that David Grush had had some psychological issues. And this then turned into a media story and it threw shade on him at a critical time in the narrative.
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
But then some other journalists started saying, and this was largely, I have to say, one of the great things about this, it was citizen journalism. and there's a lot of brilliant people on X and elsewhere doing this sort of stuff. And somebody got the backstory, and it turns out, and there's a paper trail, and in fact the journalist confirmed this, so it's not disputed.
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
What happened was the journalist did have contacts in the intelligence community serving members of the IC, and they basically... Let it be known to him that if he were to make freedom of information requests to a particular police department for a particular period of time, he might find an interesting story.
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
So he did that and he turned up these police reports that I believe David Grush's wife had. telephoned the cops to say that she had concerns about his behavior and they came. And so there are two interesting things about this. One is the IC had clearly done this deliberately to smear him. And they effectively, they caused the story to be run.
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
I don't know specifically who it was. And if I did know, I probably wouldn't say because... I didn't know if it was known or not. No. And I think the journalist, to be fair, although... You know, I think he was used in a smear campaign. But to be fair to him, obviously, he is not going to name his sources in the intelligence community. And I certainly respect him for that.
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
Of course, it's self-interest. The moment you do that, you'll never get a story from them again. Right. But the point here was, just to finish off this story, I think, because this is important. The reason David Grosh had these issues was that he had served his country with honor and distinction in Afghanistan and had seen some pretty terrible things there.
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
Oh, my goodness. It depends whether you take the listings that IMDB do or the listings that the network do. But I think it's like something like season 17. maybe 19 if you do the other way around. I mean, of course, it started as a one-off special, two-hour special on history in 2009. It's now something like 250 episodes, I think. Wow. It's amazing. It's not just a TV show.
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
So for anyone saying, I mean, that it was clearly a smear campaign aimed at portraying him as some sort of nut job. Right. Representative Tim Burchett said it best when he said, and I'm paraphrasing, but he said David Grush has PTSD from his service in Afghanistan. He said in Tennessee, he said people don't mock people for having PTSD as a result of their career in the military.
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
They thank them for their service. Right.
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
Exactly. It's not worth their time. They're only going to come out and do this for someone who is who he says he is and somebody who is pushing a narrative that they don't like. The journalist obviously couldn't resist the story. But I think if he had thought about it a little bit harder, he might have realized the bigger story is why are they doing this in the first place?
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
So he got a kind of quick little, you know, oh, hey, look, I've got a story about this guy that no one else has got. But if he'd done the truly honorable and... deeper, more principled journalist thing, he would have arguably had an even bigger story. What is it about this guy and his narrative that is causing you to try and pull my strings and make me run a story throwing shade on this guy?
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
That's the more interesting story. And absolutely, nobody gets near testifying in Congress without a whole bunch of people vetting them to say, is this person who they say they are? Did they do what they said they did? Yeah. Or not. And again, I'm not going to name names, but I remember when the David Grush story came out.
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
Now, I've obviously long since retired from the UK Ministry of Defence, but I still do have obviously contacts. I spoke to, I think, when the David Grush story came out, my first question is, is this guy for real? Yeah. In that week, I spoke to three individuals with backgrounds in the US intelligence community.
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
And all three of them said to me not only, oh, yeah, this guy's for real, but also, yeah, I know Dave. And it was like, yeah, I know Dave. And so I got that confirmation pretty much from day one.
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
He is telling the truth, absolutely. Now, obviously... We still need a smoking gun. We still need... I mean, he, by his own admission, has not seen this hardware, but he has spoken to people who said the program is real, the craft are real, and the entities are real. And I believe that... Other people at even more senior level in the intelligence community have made statements confirming that.
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
I'm not sure if those statements have yet been broadcast. I know obviously people do films and interviews all the time. it's a little bit of a dance with the Pentagon getting clearance for this, but I believe that people at even higher level in the intelligence community are, have, or have said, we have craft, we have bodies.
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
I don't know yet whether that has been broadcast or what the context is, but those statements are out there. And I mean, yeah, short of actually, you know, people, getting in a room with some of this stuff and getting hands on it, it's kind of difficult to say what more some people would ask than very senior people in
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
the government, the military, the intelligence community who have had the policy responsibility for this saying it's real. And skeptics say, oh, well, David Grush, for example, never got his hands on a craft. I mean, to give a kind of, some people might say silly example, but I think it's a direct read across.
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
It's an international phenomenon. The secret sauce that makes it a success. Who knows?
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
I worked with plenty of people in ministry defense headquarters who had responsibility for nuclear policy. They didn't necessarily ever handle a missile personally. That was done by the engineers and by the people, for example, in the ballistic missile submarines. Does that mean that these people's knowledge... is any less because they have not touched a nuclear missile.
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
Actually, if these are the policy people, I would say it flips that. They probably know more about the issue. So I'd rather, you know, who would you rather talk to? Somebody who says, I once touched a nuclear,
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
UAP in a hangar somewhere well great they can tell you what it looks like but that's about it who would you rather talk to that person or the person who handled policy on this subject for the United States government I want to talk to the policy person
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
There is a faction that believes that aspects of this phenomenon are demonic. He received what he could only describe as a sort of telepathic download of ones and zeros. He translated it from binary. There was a message, a list of latitudinal and longitudinal coordinates. Our intelligence community imagery analysts looked at them. They said, this object is real.
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
Yeah, and at the time, I think a lot of people We're very skeptical. For sure, for sure. Still are. Yeah. That said, obviously, who pushed that story out? George Knapp.
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
George Knapp certainly has a lot of contacts in the intelligence community, worked directly with people like James Lukatsky, senior... intelligence officer in the Defense Intelligence Agency, probably one of the people who was responsible for setting up OSAP initially, which morphed into AATIP.
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
So when you actually draw the connections between this and realize that the person that pushed out the Bob Lazar story actually had, George Knapp had the story about AATIP long before the New York Times published Okay. And when he knew that it was going to be published, George said, well, I could do this.
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
And I had that story because he knew Harry Reid very well, of course, who, again, on the political side was responsible for setting this up. And George did a very noble thing, actually. He was talking to a lot of the people involved with this program and they said, George, yeah, you could run that story and in a fair world, maybe you should, you had that story, but with the greatest of respect,
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
It will make more of an impact, which is what we want if it goes in the New York Times. And George sat on his hands and very nobly kind of, because he believed, still passionately believes in the subject. And he was like, this is bigger than me. And he did, I mean, I think, you know, for a journalist who has a story of, of that impact and yet agrees that that was a big thing.
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
And nobody that really, I've done some freelance journalism, nobody that isn't in that world can really ever know how big a thing he did there.
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
His character, his integrity, absolutely. Yeah, for sure.
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
Yeah. And the other thing is, it's not one of these preachy shows. It doesn't say you must think this. And it starts a lot of the points with what if or, you know, is it possible? And that's the point. You know, let's kickstart a conversation about this. I know you've spoken to people like Graham Hancock and Billy Carson recently.
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
It's the consistency of a small proportion of these UAP reports. And I mean, obviously in percentage terms, most of what people see in the skies is gonna have conventional explanations. These are misidentifications, sometimes hoaxes. But to answer the question, it's the existence of a small proportion of UAP sightings consistently for decades,
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
that have demonstrated speeds, maneuvers and acceleration, orders of magnitude above and beyond the cutting edge of our own technology, including secret prototype aircraft, missiles and drones, in a position where not only do we have the testimony of, for example, the pilots who have chased these things,
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
But we have data, and those data are sometimes photographs and films, but more often they are radar data. These things are simultaneously tracked. So they're seen by pilots, tracked. by radar, filmed on, for example, forward-looking infrared cameras. We've seen some of those videos now. There's a whole bunch more that we haven't yet seen. And also the existence of Mazint, which is...
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
A whole, it stands for measurement and signature intelligence. It's a discipline of, you know, when you talk about intelligence, you have a whole different bunch of acronyms and abbreviations. So you have HUMINT, which is human intelligence. You know, what are your... spies and your assets telling you.
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
You have satellite intelligence, you have OSINT, open source intelligence, you have Mazint, and we have Mazint on UAP. A lot of that's still classified, and Mazint is a very broad discipline, so it can actually include, for example, satellite data. And we have on the record, for example, former Director of National Intelligence John Ratcliffe confirming that we have satellite imagery of UAP.
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
that is not yet publicly released. And again, it's like, what more do we want? So that is my simple answer to your question. What pushes this over the line? The existence of this body of data And those data, like I say, some of it is expert testimony from either pilots who have seen these things or chased them, or as we discussed earlier, people in...
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
these programs who've had policy responsibility for this saying that it's real, Jay Stratton, Lou Elizondo, David Grush, Jim Samovan, Eric Davis, James Lukatsky, those sorts of individuals.
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
And there comes a point where you say, look, okay, what if some, you know, being silly, but what if some nut job had somehow gotten into the intelligence community and, I don't know, gone or had some sort of breakdown, gone rogue and come out with a... a narrative to say NHI is real. But that's not what is happening.
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
What is happening is a whole bunch of different people, senior intelligence officers in multiple different agencies, political individuals who've gotten close to this through congressional oversight, who've come out of classified briefings Sometimes with, you know, you can get into, you've done enough interviews to be able to read.
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
And again, your work as a senior business leader, you can read people's body language, I bet. For sure. You can look at their, I've seen people come out of those classified briefings looking almost shell-shocked. And those videos, I think there's a great, I think on social media, he's Oscar Paul. And he does this. He and others, I think, have kind of hung around.
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
They know when the classified briefings are and they stick a microphone and a camera in the face of these people after these classified briefings. But it's this consistent narrative that we have. So it's not some maverick. It's not somebody who's had a breakdown.
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
It is this consistent narrative from deep insiders, whether they're politicians who come out of these classified briefings looking shell-shocked. whether it's senior intelligence community people who've handled this from the policy aspect, whether it's the pilots who've seen them, whether it's the radar operators who've tracked them. And it seems to me that we have...
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
built up now what I would say by any reasonable person's assessment is a critical mass that has pushed us from having this debate about is this real or not over the line where our question should now be, well, what is it? What are we dealing with? What is the intelligence behind this and what is the agenda?
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
Yes, there is an old way of thinking about this and there's a new way. And I think your friends are in that old way because the old narrative was UFOs. And of course, all that, as I say, why we rebranded it, all the pop culture baggage, you know, so UFO in a lot of people's minds is, still equals science fiction and conspiracy theory and crazy stories.
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
UAP, so the new think way of looking at this is, oh yeah, Senate Intelligence Committee holding a classified briefing on that thing that we've been talking about. And I think if the challenge is, How do you move people from old think to new think when there's so much information on this? What's somebody's best route into it? And I don't really have an answer.
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
for that because this is a story with an 80 year backstory and it is big. There is a lot to it. And you can't just say, here's a quick, you know, way from old think to new think. You have to say it. It's a vast, and we've discussed this, vast body of information from government officials, pilots, whoever it is.
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
Yes, I think we keep pushing the timeline further and further back. I mean, when I was growing up, it was like, well, you know, pretty much the first civilization was the Sumerians. And really before that, it was just a whole bunch of people in animal skins, you know, hunting mammoths, that sort of thing.
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
I have not seen this material directly. However, I have been told by people who I trust implicitly and people, again, who are... well-placed to know that there is more to come. And that more to come will include better photos and videos and more information. But again, it goes back to, I think, the central problem of this.
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
And of course, literally, I think, a few days before I flew here to do this interview, yet another story came Jake Barber, the egg-shaped UAP. The problem with all of this is that in some people's minds... It is just another video. And okay, this is daylight. It's up close and personal. But it goes back to what I was saying about who do you want to talk to?
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
The person who's had a hand on the side of one of these things on a hanger, that's only going to tell me what... you know, what it looked like. A video is only ever going to tell you that. I think what people really want, as much as people say, I want to see the good videos. Well, I guarantee that if we're doing another interview in a year's time, we will have more videos.
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
But what we may still not have is sort of a official confirmation that, But B, if we don't get that, at least deep inside, this is our best assessment of what we are dealing with and what it wants. You know, because it wants something. And, you know, we can get into this, but I don't... I don't have a definitive answer to this. I mean, obviously, there's a whole bunch of different theories.
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
Some people think that it's extraterrestrial. Some people believe that it's interdimensional. Other people, there is certainly a faction of people still serving who believe that this is real but demonic and that this is why we shouldn't disclose it or even engage with it because that feeds it. I mentioned that because people kind of think, oh, well, no one would believe that.
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
And yes, absolutely they do. People do. Lou Elizondo has told the anecdote that when he was briefing a very senior person in the Pentagon trying to get engagement on that, the guy said, son, go read your Bible. And it was not like that's all nonsense. We shouldn't be wasting resources on it. It was no, it's real, but because I think it's demonic, I also believe we should not engage with it.
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
And now, of course, we have Golbekli Tepe and some of the other sites in modern day Turkey, pushing that timeline back to... You know, civilizations capable of working together to construct these sites. And people forget it's not just the monuments and the sites, but to work on a collaborative venture like that requires... organizational planning that says something about human thought.
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
And so it might be that. I occasionally like to speculate that it might be something that we don't have a word for or don't even have the conceptual ability at the current level of human development to really process. I mean, you could not, for example... to explain quantum physics to a chimpanzee.
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
Certainly not to me. What is that great quote? It's from one of the theoretical physicists. It's something like, anyone who isn't shocked by quantum theory hasn't understood it. I think it was Niles Bohr or maybe Max Planck or... Whoever it was. I think it's the same with UAP. Ah, right. Okay. We are being instantly fact-checked here. This is good.
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
Well, not fact-checked, but the answers to these questions are being provided for us. But yeah, I think the point is, what if UAP and this... You know, NHI, non-human intelligence, is the latest kind of phrase. What if it is something that we can't currently comprehend?
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
So we just... I often give the example of somebody waking up in the middle of the night, seeing a shadowy figure at the foot of their bed. Religious people might think it's an angel. Paranormal researchers might think it's a ghost. People in the UFO community might think they're being abducted by aliens. Is any one of those individuals right or wrong?
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
Well, maybe they're all wrong, but maybe it's something that kind of like quantum theory, like wave-particle duality. When we interact with it, it collapses into a reality that maybe takes something from... individual so you know a ghost hunter will see a ghost um a ufologist will will see an alien a religious person will see an angel or a demon and you know is that what you what uap and nhi is or
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
And this is one of my latest ideas that I've kind of tried to kickstart a little confirmation on this. If people say, well, why don't we just disclose? And I say, look, I don't know, but let's suppose that it's all true and that there is, as many people in the program have testified, craft and bodies. If disclosure was easy, we would have done it by now.
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
It would be the easiest thing in the world. President goes on TV, Oval Office, my fellow Americans, people of the world, we are not alone. And I said earlier, of course, well, what about the technology? Some of that could be weaponized. You wouldn't want that getting into hands of an adversary. Absolutely fair enough. But you could ring fence it.
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
You could say, my fellow Americans, people of the world, we're not alone. We are being interacted with. Now, there's some technology, but because the United States is in possession of that, we don't want adversaries to have that. We are not going to talk about that. And everyone would kind of probably be very frustrated, but they would kind of say, fair enough.
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
Conceptually, you'd be able to understand the decision. And you could do that. But that's not what's happening. There seems to be, this is my point here, there seems to be something about the existence of this, the reality of this in and of itself that can't be disclosed.
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
And that must be something that unlike the technology, which you could ring fence, you could separate it out and say, we're going to do this, but not that. It's so much part of the story that you couldn't extract it. And what might that be? What is, and the phrase that I've used is, a secret too terrible to be told. There must be something that makes this difficult.
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
Because as I say, if it wasn't difficult, someone would have done it in 80 years. And so what is that secret? What is something too terrible to be told? And is it perhaps, this is pretty much the only thing that I can think of, something that would so shatter our worldview, our sense of self, that it would lead not just to societal upheaval,
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
You almost certainly need a written language to communicate ideas, to put down your plans, your construction plans, your blueprints. So again, what else is out there? Because I guarantee if we're having this discussion again in 10 years' time, we'll be talking about a site... 15,000, 20,000 years in the past.
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
but to maybe sort of personal upheaval, but not in a good way. And that might be that something about this would absolutely confirm, I don't know, simulation theory, that reality is just...
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
an illusion and that we are just living in the matrix and that we are the construct of, we're the self-aware, or so we think, we're the construct of some architect who has made, whether it's a science experiment or a video game, I don't know, but maybe it's absolute confirmation that we're living in a simulation or maybe it's- How could you get confirmation of that? I don't know.
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
I don't know either. But some of the Silicon Valley billionaires are invested in this and are quietly funding a little bit of research to see if it's true and maybe to bust us out of the matrix. I have heard some theories about quantum computing being I'm not an expert, so I'm probably getting this wrong, but people can look it up.
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
There is a theory that if you ran a quantum computer, as some people have postulated they could be developed, that might involve utilizing so much energy from the simulation that the simulation could no longer run and it would kind of collapse the simulation. Now, that might not be a smart thing to do because maybe that would end the universe and end all of our
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
consciousness, self-awareness, life, however you define that. So maybe that's the secret or maybe the secret too terrible to be told is that something about this has to do with death or where we go after we die. And again, when I first developed this idea, which is comparatively recent, I thought, do we have any clues that might validate this?
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
And then I remembered or noticed three things that three very prominent individuals who have been deeply invested in the UAP world in terms of research and investigation, suddenly pivoted and started looking at life after death. And those three individuals are Robert Bigelow, John Mack and Leslie Kane.
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
And obviously three very well-connected individuals, three, John Mack, of course, no longer with us, but Robert Bigelow, of course, got the A-tip. contract and knows a lot of these people who we've discussed, people like Senator Harry Reid and James Likatsky, people who've had experiences, who've run programs or in Harry Reid's place, politically set up programs.
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
Bigelow, Kane, Mack, all kind of looked at the UAPSU and then did this, okay, I'm done with that. Now, not necessarily done, but when did you last... hear Bigelow talk about UAP. You would think that after his 60 Minutes interview, and then after the New York Times running the story about AATIP, that he would have dominated the narrative And yet he has been staggeringly quiet.
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
And what a perfect platform he would have. And it's not because journalists haven't asked him, but he has chosen... not to be involved, and his latest venture is a whole series of essays that he's commissioned and funded about life after death. Why is it that three well-placed individuals who've looked at the UAP issue have suddenly pivoted to life after death?
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
Again, could that be validation of this idea that there is a secret too terrible to be told and that it has something to do with death?
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
Fun speculation, for sure. Interesting speculation, I think, because these are what I call second-order questions, and I... Like I said, with the pivot from is UAP real or not to what is UAP, second order questions are often far more interesting. Questions like, what is it about this that makes it so difficult?
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
And related to that, what would be, and I did a whole TV series, I created and hosted a whole TV series called After Contact, which asked what I think is the most interesting second order question, pretty much, is what would be the societal impact on this, on politics, religion, science, technology, philosophy, economics?
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
That is a very interesting question. And I think it gets to the heart of another area where I would argue that we need to get away from old think and into new think. Old think would be this is a spaceship. and therefore it has an energy source and a propulsion system, and we should figure that out, and then that way humanity can go to the stars. And I agree with Elon Musk on this.
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
We must become... At the moment, we have all our eggs in one basket, one big comet or asteroid strike, and it's game over. Or however it might. And inevitably, obviously, at some point in our future, the sun will expand and become a... a red giant, we need to move off Earth first to Mars, but eventually we'll need to go interstellar.
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
And so, yeah, absolutely, energy source, propulsion system, but that's still old think. And I think one way to maybe rebrand this and get to the new think is to stop, and I know this is counterintuitive for a lot of people, stop thinking about... in terms of it being a transportation device. I mean, it may be a transportation device, but it may not be.
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
I think it's more helpful and maybe broadens out our thinking if we stop thinking of it as a transportation device and start thinking of it as a device. And then the question becomes, well, what does it do? What can it do? And this goes back to the point about chimpanzees and quantum physics, because let me give a nice example. If you were to take your smartphone and somehow send it back in time,
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
Yeah, I was having this conversation with David Childress and Giorgio Tsoukalos about Sacsayhuaman and Pumapunku and things and getting into the fact that the rocks there, you know, and the Olmec heads, for example, I mean, the rocks used the stones that are cut with precision tend to be things like gray andesite and basalt, which on the Mohs scale of hardness are like eight, nine.
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
10 years. And I don't know what model you have, but let's suppose it's an iPhone 14 or something like that. 15, yeah. Oh, 15. I'm losing count of where we are. I think we're 16 now.
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
Yeah. I've got a 22, but I got that at the time travel conference. Oh, nice. For anyone who's thinking, oh, Nick's been... No. But if you were to take your iPhone, send it back 10 years, and the folks at Apple... got their hands on it, they would be like, wow, this is amazing. But they would probably be able to figure it out and back-engineer it, reverse-engineer it.
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
If you sent it back 20, 30 years, they would probably figure out what it was, but they might struggle to recreate it. If you sent it back 200, 300 years, no. If you send it back 10,000 years, it's a magic shiny rock, a flat shiny rock that does things. And you would either worship it or think it's the devil or something like that.
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
Yeah. And of course, as you know, there are people who look at some of the hieroglyphs and say, some of that looks like it might be... the so-called handbags, for example. No, I'm with you. I'm with you. Don't be there. So, yeah, I think if we stop thinking of UAP as a transportation device, let alone a spaceship.
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
I mean, maybe it serves as a device and brings something here, or maybe it takes us somewhere else. But it may fulfill a number of different roles, just as your smartphone can act as a telephone where you can call someone up, but also as a camera, and also as... a way in which you can access information. I mean, it's multi-rolled.
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
If we start with the new thing, thinking of UAP and specifically the craft as a multi-role device, the question is, what are those roles? Can we understand it? The answer, maybe no. Maybe it is like, well, let's just suppose it is extraterrestrial. There might be civilizations out there a billion years ahead of us. Could we understand that technology? Of course not.
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
Might we understand some broad concepts? Maybe, but maybe not. I don't know. But I think the new thing should be this is a device – What functions does it fulfill? And is there a way for us to access those functions? Because some of the people, like David Grush, have talked about this. Again, old think, new think. Old think is these things crashed.
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
New thing is that on some occasion, these things have been left for us. Some people might use the phrase gifts from the gods. Well, if you're given something, what does it do? And it's like, if you were given an advanced smartphone,
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
and you didn't really know much about it, I guarantee you'd start pressing the buttons, you'd start off like, and eventually you'd hit some function and something would get accessed and you would figure out, hey, this thing works, like there's a camera on this. Sure. Well, with UAP, that's what I hope is happening. And...
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
And then they're trying to tell us that these were cut with copper tools that they found there. That just does not work.
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
But maybe, like I say, secret too terrible to be told, maybe some of those functions take us, maybe literally, maybe metaphorically, maybe both, to something a little bit dark side. And maybe government and some of the people that have power knowledge of this, know that.
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
Remember that one of the smartest questions anyone asked Lou Elizondo was when they said, if you could sum up in one word how people should feel if they knew what you knew about this, what would that one word be? And he thought very carefully and he said somber. Well, maybe he's right with that, but maybe it goes a little... bit more dark side than somber. What if his answer had been terrified?
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
What if his view had been shattered? in that sense of our paradigm and worldview and sense of self.
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
Yeah. And of course, people react in different ways. And you can't predict that. What if the answer, what if Lou's answer is somber, but what if somebody else... knows that, well, actually the answer is a range starting at somber and ending up as absolutely blank terrified.
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
It's a tricky one because, again, it speaks to this central difficulty that what does a picture actually show you? Just the shape of something. It doesn't really tell you anything about capability, intent, anything like that. I mean, you can look at it and say, well, yeah, fine, but that – That doesn't tell me what function the thing fulfills.
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
It doesn't tell me anything about who or what made it or why. And of course, although I've got no reason to doubt the authenticity, but in these days of AI generated imagery and technology, Yeah, it's... A picture is... I mean, I'm not saying it's meaningless, but it really doesn't tell you much more than the shape of something and gives you an approximation of size. In...
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
One of my media interviews about this story, again, I was asked what I thought, and I said, what I think is we need more information. And that goes back to this big picture that you have all these pieces of information, testimony from pilots and, but also some of the technical data, whether it's satellite, radar, infrared, whatever it is. So, you know, you have something like this image.
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
But then you need the backstory. And specifically, I mean, I think the thing that you would need, which... As of right now, now maybe this is moving so quickly that when you have these sorts of discussions, maybe you'll say, oh no, that's just been revealed or something.
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
But unless I missed it when I was traveling or something, we don't have, for example, the pickup location or the drop-off location. I mean, if that film is what it purports to be, somebody basically picked up and dropped off an object, some questions that come to mind are, like I say, from where was it picked up? Where was it dropped off? Where is it now? authorized the pickup and drop off?
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
I mean, who was the commanding officer? What military or other unit was this? Under whose authorization was this operation conducted? What's the name of the operation? The military tend to kind of give pretty much everything an op name, whether it's the Gulf War or something more limited. Well, if you have the name of the operation,
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
the unit that has the sort of policy, functional responsibility for this, Congress can then go and ask the right question. But without those pieces of information, you don't even know whose door to knock on.
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
but get enough pieces of the information and you do know, okay, if I'm a staffer working for the Senate Intelligence Committee and my boss comes to me and says, you know, I've seen this video, I want the person who authorized that op so that we can say, what is this thing? I don't From that, I don't even know what door to knock on.
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
But like I say, get those information points, those data points, and then... I as the staffer can say, okay, I need to go and speak to my liaison officer at CIA. And that's the person I need to ask. And these are the questions. And then we'll get someone in for a classified briefing, if not a public hearing. But so that picture is interesting, but it...
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
It's really only the start of the conversation. Right.
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
Yes, but I would put one rider onto that, which I don't think I have heard publicly mentioned. And in one sense, I think it's an obvious point, but it's not one that I've seen the UFO community discuss. If any of these people, and I mentioned...
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
that obviously most of the people in this field, in most of their activities, have been very careful not to cross the line, have submitted material for clearance through DOPSA at the Pentagon. But we should never forget that we're dealing...
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
So you're the reason we're all saying UAP. I am the reason. What do you see as coming next? Like, what's on the horizon? I think it's something where I would give people some advice. Buckle up, because we're going on one heck of a ride.
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
And a lot of this narrative is coming from people who were in the intelligence community where deception is kind of almost like everyday business because of what you're doing, whether that's counterintelligence or whatever it is, whether it's a psyop, a psychological operation to shape and manipulate opinion.
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
Lou is specifically, I mean, one of his skill sets is counterintelligence. That's what he was brought into OSAP, originally to do before his initiative with AATIP, but he was brought on board to do the CI for OSAP. So he is, I mean, a lot of people in the intelligence community will know how to do counterintelligence, but some of them will be deep specialists.
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
I would go with the latter. And I mean, again, looking at some of the massive stone blocks, like the platform at Baalbek in Lebanon, to figure out that. And I was having this conversation with Travis Taylor, and he was saying that to lift something like that. And it's not, as you know, it's not Roman. The Romans kind of inherited it from the Sumerians, built on top of it. Yeah.
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
And Lou was a deep specialist, but almost everyone will know the basics. And my point is, I guess, It's this, that if these people are, if not crossing the line, but going right up to it, they will be very careful. And one way in which they can be very careful is that they can maybe change the narrative. If you want to get something out,
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
but you wanna maybe protect the original source, you will change maybe a couple of parts of the story so that if somebody is trying to then unmask you, they won't know who leaked it, for example. What I'm saying is that people should bear in mind that the people telling these accounts are very often trained to alter some aspects of the story to protect the original source.
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
And I'm just asking the question, maybe that's happening with some of this. And so let's suppose I was somebody with a background in the CIA and I wanted to leak something. With classified information, particularly on a very niche subject, there's very limited pool of suspects.
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
So if I could alter the narrative and hide the fact that my background was CIA and make people think that my background was NSA, for example, then if anyone was looking for me, they'd be looking in the wrong place. So all I'm saying is that be wary that what you're getting might be the truth, but might have some aspects altered. So not everything will check out.
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
And that might be quite deliberate and it might be aimed at protecting the identity, for example, of someone who is still serving.
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
Barber, isn't it? Barber, thank you. Jake Barber. But remember, I mean, while I remember, that's a very interesting point. When David Grush, I discussed how I had privately... through three members of... three former members of the intelligence community, I was able to get quick confirmation, yeah, David Grush is for real. But when the media fact-checked that story, two people...
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
validated it one was carl nell who we now have heard uh from in public but one uh was was somebody else still serving in the intelligence community who was given the pseudonym um i think it was jonathan gray gray obviously being a kind of
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
But my point is there are reasons why you would want to distort a story or change a few key facts to mask the identity of someone still serving because you want those people on the inside.
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
Well, I'm tempted to say that's just the way intelligence works. What is the phrase? It's a wilderness of mirrors, where I can't remember who first coined that phrase. But it describes perfectly, I think, what goes on. Sometimes if you want to get a story out, maybe somebody else puts out your story. So when you ask what might be changed, anything could be changed.
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
But you would have to build a special crane, specially constructed to hoist something like that. You'd have to design it and things. And yet people are saying, oh, yeah, it was just done with rollers and hoists and things.
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
The whistleblower putting out the story may not be the original source. It may be a retired person who has agreed to act as a conduit to get a story out. Or, as I say, there might be something subtle like changing your backstory to change the agency so that people are looking for leakers in the wrong place. So that might be an aspect.
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
It's just, it's a- Yeah, and Arrow under its current leadership, to pick up your point on Arrow, may be a very different organization to Arrow under its previous leadership of Sean Kirkpatrick.
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
Yeah, and there's another point, of course.
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
But this is where Congress needs to step up and do its job. Arrow was established... as a result of a mandate from Congress. And it's also therefore incumbent on Congress to hold their feet to the fire.
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
And if they don't think that they're doing a good job, or if they think they've gone over to the dark side, for want of a better phrase, then Congress is best placed to hold them to account and to get them to change their policy. And of course, the media has a role in asking smart questions, not necessarily accepting every narrative that they're spoon-fed.
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
That doesn't mean you have to turn into a full-blown conspiracy theorist, but it does mean you have to strike the balance between accepting what... you're told, you know, as being broadly true, but pushing back, asking hard questions.
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
And if you think that something is, I mean, most people, I know this is a statement a lot of people don't agree with, but most times, even these people deep on the inside, they don't really tell direct lies, but you do get lies of admission, of omission, pardon me, And you do get statements that are misleading. So call it spin or however you want to term it.
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
And so Congress must hold Arrow to account. The media, including citizen journalists, must hold Arrow to account. And, of course, it's timely that we're having this conversation because, of course, whatever one's politics, we have a new administration. And it's incumbent on the new administration to take a role on this. And, of course, I...
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
remember a few days before the inauguration, um, a question came up to president Trump, president elect as he was then. And, um, And I think it was about the drones. And he said, I'll have a report on that on day one.
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
Now, actually, what happened was on the evening of the inauguration, when Trump was in the Oval Office signing those executive orders that came out on the first day, somebody, I think it was Peter Doocy, shouted out a question. I mean, it was pretty impressive multitasking. He'd been at it all day. He had a fairly hectic schedule.
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
His chief of, pardon me, one of his aides, not his chief of staff, one of his aides was handing him the executive orders to sign. He was having a side conversation about what each of them were. And then at least there were at least two journalists in the room, maybe more, shouting out questions. And one question was about the drones.
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
And he said, what are we, okay, yeah, do we know anything about that? And that was a conversation. He turned, I think, to his chief of staff who was in the room, said, what do we know about that? Can we get a report on that? So there is a commitment to get an answer on the drones very early.
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
I'm from England, and as you can probably tell from my funny accent. It's fantastic. Well, TV producers say that an English accent is a superpower. It is, yeah.
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
So, yeah, I think the journalist who shouted out the question was Peter Doocy. And when he said Susie, I think that's a reference to his chief of staff. So there is that commitment to go and get an answer. Also, of course, and obviously there is a linkage between the drone story and the wider UAP story. When Trump was on Joe Rogan, Joe Rogan asked about the JFK files.
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
Of course, in his first term, President Trump released some of the JFK files, but not all. And then in... In between, he was, I was going to call it the interregnum, but we can't call it that, can we? In his wilderness years, he said, well, next time I will release all the files, including the JFK files that I did not publish. release last time.
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
And then Joe Rogan was obviously about to ask another question. And Trump anticipated his question and segued to UFOs and said, and there's a lot of interest in UFOs too. And it was clear Rogan was going to go from the JFK files. And indeed, in one of his recent interviews, again, Trump said JFK files, RFK files, MLK files, and other areas of public interest. And it was extraordinary.
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
kind of clear in his mind, given that he anticipated Joe Rogan's question, that he links these issues. So given that he's made a commitment to release information on the JFK assassination, and he's made a commitment to say what they know about the drones in New Jersey,
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
it's kind of implicit in that that, well, you know, given that drones is really just a subset of the wider UAP conversation, what about the UAP situation? And so I think watch closely how this unfolds because, not least, he will be, I mean, very few people can hold him accountable to maybe Elon Musk if he were vocal on this.
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
Yeah, I'm not, of course, but my accent means I can get away with it. And people think, oh, he must know a lot. I'm like, yeah, just bluffing it.
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
But I think Joe Rogan is someone who he will listen to and he'll know that he's made that commitment and Joe Rogan will remember that he's made that commitment. And the media, hopefully, again, going back to the point about the media must do their jobs. They must say, hey, Mr. President, you know, we haven't had that report on drones yet.
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
And by the way, while we're talking about drones, what about UAP?
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
Yes, and this goes back to the point that maybe the reason that that hasn't happened so far is because of this dark side, this secret too terrible to be told. But if ever there is a president who is likely to do it, it's Trump in his second term because he is a maverick. a populist, somebody who doesn't like the, whether you call it the deep state or the bureaucracy.
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
And if ever there was a president who would sort of go rogue, go maverick, and there may be good reasons for keeping this secret, but what the hell, I'm just going to come out with it. It's Trump in his second term with nothing to lose and looking to write his legacy. The problem, of course, is that,
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
But no, I was brought up in the UK and lived there until I was about 45 and then actually got married to a US citizen and moved over. I've been in the US since January 2012, but yeah, brought up in England and the Ministry of Defence
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
despite the bipartisan nature of the congressional engagement that I mentioned earlier, if Trump were to do that, just the adversarial divided nation at the moment means that half the population, if Trump goes... on live TV in the Oval Office and says, my fellow Americans, people of the world, we're not alone, half the population are gonna say, I don't believe a word of it.
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
And if it was the other way around, if Biden had done it before leaving office, it would have been the other way around. Half the population would have said, that's fake news, just a different half. So wherever we are with this, only half the people are going to believe it. The other half are going to think it's some sort of psychological operation.
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
I've heard the phrase false flag alien invasion bandied around. I've even been accused of being a part of that myself.
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
Project Bluebeam, ramp up the threat narrative, fake an alien invasion so that you can introduce a sort of space patriot act and take away people's freedoms. I don't believe that, but the fact that that conversation is even going on tells you something about society. And it is an issue. And...
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
And I think maybe that's one of the impediments to disclosure, is this, how could we unpack this in a way that it won't just splinter the nation along bipartisan political lines with basically the half of the population... whose candidate isn't currently in power, saying, I don't believe a word of this.
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
And worse, I think it's all some dastardly government plot to make us think this for nefarious purposes.
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
I think if I were to have to pick one, I would lean towards extraterrestrial. However, I'm very well aware that that may be my own kind of cultural bias because that, I guess, was the... the leading sort of alternative theory to this all being explainable for so long that I can't really disprove that I'm not leaning that way just because that's how I came in.
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
The MOD was what I jokingly call the family firm because my father worked there as a government scientist, actually an aeronautical engineer, but he went on to be director of the Royal Aeronautical Establishment at Farnborough where they have the air shows and actually retired as deputy chief scientific advisor to the Ministry of Defence. And he'd always encouraged me
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
It's the door I came in, you know, because I didn't, I mean, ideas, for example, of other dimensions were when I was growing up just science fiction, really. I mean, now we have Michio Kaku and other proponents of string theory, for example, saying that extra or hidden dimensions are actually necessary if the equations in string theory are to actually work.
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
And experimentally, you know, people say, we should be using the scientific method for this. He is probably one of the world's most famous, if not the world's most famous scientist. I guess Stephen Hawking when he was alive and Einstein before him. Now Michio Kaku, perhaps Avi Loeb. Well, Michio Kaku can hardly be accused of not being scientific.
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
And yet there he is at the Large Hadron Collider Particle Accelerator at CERN looking for these so-called hidden dimensions. But that was kind of not really discussed as a serious possibility until recently. So I lean towards extraterrestrial, but, you know, who knows? And here's the other thing. The other day I was doing...
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
The other day I was doing a media interview on the Jersey Trans, New Jersey Trans, and somebody said, what do you think it is?
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
Well, I said... There is no one answer to that. It is a lot of things. Some of what people are seeing are hobbyist drones. Some are law enforcement drones. Some are other maybe commercial drones. Some might be adversary drones. Some clearly are just people misidentifying people Aircraft lights, helicopter lights, bright stars and planets, all the media coverage. Yeah, a bit of mass hysteria.
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
The media has whipped people up. But still, my answer stands. It's a lot of things. So when you say, where do you lean? I can lean whichever way I like, but the answer to the question, what is this, might be all of the above, right? I mean, let's suppose you've recovered or elements in government have recovered a craft, a device, whatever you want to call it. Let's suppose it's extraterrestrial.
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
It doesn't mean that one warehouse over, there isn't one that came from another dimension. And the next warehouse, one that came from the future. So all of the above is a possible answer. Just because possibility A turns out to be true in this situation doesn't mean that possibilities B, C, and D are taken off the table. So... It could be all of the above or some of the above.
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
It could be none of the above, which takes us back to this idea of could it be something that we don't have words for? Words are just labels we stick on something, but what if it is something totally beyond our ability to understand or even conceive of in its true form?
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
Yes, the Rendlesham Forest was really, I guess, the best known British case, December 1980. So before my time in the Ministry of Defence, but I did a cold case review on it. and subsequently met most of the first-hand witnesses, including Colonel Charles Holt, the deputy base commander, who started as a skeptic on this, then saw the UFO himself and ended up as one of the witnesses.
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
He'd said, working for your country is something to be proud of and it's something interesting. And you'll go home every day and you'll have worked on things that you'll see on the news. And then he said, you'll be working on other things which you'll never see in the news. Okay. And he gave me a sort of knowing smile. And I was like, well, this really does sound intriguing.
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
He physically went out there and saw it? Yeah, on the first night something landed in the forest. and a number of personnel saw this, the ones that got closest were John Burrows and Jim Penniston. I subsequently, I mean, I met them. In fact, we ended up writing a book on the case, John Burrows, Jim Penniston and myself.
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
And it's the only book that I am aware of on this subject of UAP that needed security clearance of the manuscript prior to publication from both the Pentagon... the Defense Office of Pre-Publication Security Review that I mentioned earlier, DOPSA, and the Ministry of Defense. Wow.
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
Well, yeah. But I didn't want... I'm not, like I say, I'm not a whistleblower. I know where the line is. So I didn't set out to write something that would disclose classified information. But obviously, if you write a 100,000-word book... you have to be absolutely watertight on that, not for legal reasons. And any publisher, and I was with Macmillan, no big publisher will touch a book
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
like that without being assured that it has gone through the the process because they they are not going to publish something and then find that they get a cease and desist from the pentagon so they need to see a piece of paper to say look because because this book has been co-written by an official at the uk ministry of defense who had policy responsibility for uap and two
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
retired US Air Force officers who encountered UAP while on duty They need that bit of paper. Macmillan, as the publishers, needed that bit of paper to say, these guys have gone through the proper process and got security clearance. So, yeah, that was something we did. And we did it willingly. But, yeah, John Burrows and Jim Penniston saw this on the first night. It had landed in the forest.
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
And there's a sketch.
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
Yes. Bent Waters and Woodbridge are two United States Air Force bases on British soil. And Rendlesham Forest lies between Bent Waters and Woodbridge. This is a sketch Jim Penniston made in his notebook at the time. It's about nine feet across, maybe nine feet tall at its highest point. He also saw strange symbols on the side of it.
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
Like kind of hieroglyphs. Now, one of the interesting things about Jim is one of his skill sets was Warsaw Pact... aircraft recognition. He could look. He was one of these people that could look at flashcards, even of the silhouette, of any Soviet or Warsaw Pact military aircraft, and he'd go, that's an S-U-
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
uh you know 35 or a mig 29 or or whatever the numbers are what and whatever variants and so when jim was looking at this craft and those symbols he was like well when i say that this is like nothing i've seen before Yeah, that's a pretty dramatic statement. Because some people were saying, well, you saw strange symbols. Might they have been Cyrillic alphabet? And he was like, no, no.
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
He's like, I know what that is. I know every symbol on the side of every aircraft symbol. So, and he got close enough to touch the side of this craft, which he said afterwards, he said, yeah, that was probably a pretty dumb idea. But, you know, curiosity, curiosity.
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
So I did join and I was there for 21 years. And for those people watching who don't know what the MOD is, it is the equivalent of the DOD here in the States. So it's a policymaking organization government department, but it also in a dual-hatted way serves as the UK's highest level military headquarters.
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
And he said, and this is probably the most controversial part of the story, he said that he received what he could only describe as a sort of telepathic download of ones and zeros.
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
When he touched it. Yeah. Now, he thought nothing more about it. He then... got this compulsion to write down 16 pages of ones and zeros in his notebook a few evenings later and promptly put that aside for decades, not least because he stayed in the service. That's one thing to say that you've seen a UFO. He was kind of okay because his deputy base commander saw it too. So that's fine.
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
But you can't say, and I then got a telepathic download from the craft. Otherwise, you'll be, yeah, you're out. And he was in the PRP program, which was personnel reliability program thing, very high security program. He would have lost that in an instant if he'd started talking about this sort of thing. So he didn't say anything about it for years, but then he kind of came out with it.
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
He's like, I don't know what to make of it. And the producers of Ancient Aliens actually got the story. They found a computer engineer, computer scientist called Nick Sisk, who just, you know, now there are websites that can do this. But at the time, I'm not sure there were. But he translated it from binary. And there was a message. And the message reads, Exploration of Humanity.
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
continuous for planetary advance, eyes of your eyes, origin year 8100. which is what put him onto time travel as a possibility for this. And then a list of latitudinal and longitudinal coordinates that just happened to match with the locations of a lot of sacred sites all around the world, everything from the great pyramids at Giza through to the Nazca lines in Peru, and a number of other sites.
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
But origin year 8,100 made him think maybe this isn't extraterrestrial, maybe it's time travels. And then something really interesting happened. I didn't really... It was all pretty interesting. Well, yeah. But there wasn't really anything you could hang your hat on. And then I found out that...
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
When I was looking into this, I found out that there are very few professors doing theoretical work on time travel. But there is one called Ronald Mallett. And... Ronald Mallet was saying, well, is there any way that time travel could work but without violating any of the laws of physics? And he said, one thing that you might be able to do would be to send a message back through time.
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
And he said the way that you would do this is that he said some subatomic particles have a spin state that is kind of either up or down. And he said, if you therefore send a stream of particles back into the past, but control their spin state so that they are either up or down, if you can control that, you can create a binary message.
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
Now, Jim didn't even know what binary code was, let alone, or, you know, had no experience of it. Didn't know that it was ones and zeros. And of course, none of these people had heard of Ronald Mallett. And yet here was Ronald Mallett, postulating that you might send a message back in time using binary code. And that's that aspect of the Rendlesham story.
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
Now I was a civilian employee and one of the great things that attracted me about a career in the MOD is that every three or four years either on level transfer or promotion, you get to do a different job, a completely different job. So my first posting was, it kind of sounds like bizarre, but I had responsibility for working with the oil and gas industry
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
And when I was doing this for the Ministry of Defence, when I was doing lots of jobs at the Ministry of Defence, your training is always look for connections. And here you have what sounds like a crazy story, You marry it up with what this theoretical physicist is doing and suddenly maybe it doesn't explain it, but it contextualizes it, I think.
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
You just maybe have a little in that you didn't have before and what this might be about. Now, I think... it's almost too good to be true. It's like a sort of paranormal investigators bucket list. And when something's too obvious, I always think maybe it's just an attention getter. So if I was sending a message back into the past,
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
I would have something that gets your attention, but I would encode something much deeper in. So I don't know, maybe someone somewhere is running all this through a supercomputer. Maybe AI will be brought to bear on this challenge. Sure. What the Rendlesham Code is. Right. If it's a message there, yes.
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
Well, you can take the, yes, you can take now, I think there are websites which will just convert. If you write sort of, hello, my name is Matt, you can convert that into binary and there are websites that will do it for you and it will spit it out in a series of ones and zeros. And yeah, somebody absolutely has run the ones and zeros from Jim's notebook. Okay, it is what it's-
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
It means that the letters don't... the translation doesn't quite work, but it is the nearest approximation. There might be... a missing letter. And that even might just be Jim's handwriting, or even if he was under a compulsion, maybe his memory, maybe a transcription error. So this is Nick Sisk's work, the computer scientist that I was mentioning. So... Like you say, there are words in there.
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
You can pick out the message, and then those are the coordinates.
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
And here's another interesting thing. Down at the bottom, obviously, you've got origin year 8100. Up at the top, you've actually got something very disturbing. Exploration of humanity 666. then 8,100 again. Now, the 8,100, you can say that seems to match up with the thing down at the bottom. But 666, wait a minute, that's the number of the beast.
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
Now, from the book of Revelations, and earlier we were talking about a faction largely in the Pentagon, but there are some people in the UK. I came across this attitude in the UK as well. There is a faction that believes that aspects of this phenomenon are demonic and You see something like this, and it gets your attention. And there's something else.
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
I mentioned the fact that this isn't lights in the sky. This thing landed. Right, right. One of the things they did, people say, what's the best evidence? And what's the best evidence for this? They went to the landing site afterwards. They went back and they found burn marks. This was a clearing, a small clearing in the trees.
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
They found burn marks, scorch marks on the ground, on the sides of the trees facing the clearing. But they also took out a Geiger counter. And... they took some readings. And the readings were, again, none of this is disputed. Is that radiation? Radiation readings, yeah. This is in a declassified Ministry of Defence file. So you can go to the National Archives website
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
and the Royal Navy to de-conflict their operations in UK territorial waters. I mean, obviously we do a lot of sailing, Navy, and sometimes live firing, and that and oil rigs don't mix very well. So it was just a liaison job, making sure everyone knew at every given moment who was doing what, where. And, you know, it was a sort of fairly routine administrative job.
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
both either in person or online, you can download this file. It's not just me telling you this story. I mean, this is in the declassified file. The defense intelligence staff at the Ministry of Defense got that report on the radiation levels at the landing site from Colonel Holt, a deputy base commander.
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
He was the one who ordered the disaster preparedness officer, Sergeant Monroe Nevels, to take the radiation readings. And so that is all in the memo. When I did my cold case review, I kind of, one of the questions I asked is, well, you know, we've got these radiation levels, but I said, I know there's background radiation everywhere. Depends on the geology.
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
And there are some sites where you'll get a higher reading. What are the control readings? What's the average background for that particular site? And actually they give the average, the normal reading, figure in the same document from Colonel Holt. And I thought just as a bit of fun, well, not fun, I thought I'd heard people downplay this and say, oh, it's just background radiation. It wasn't.
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
I heard people over-exaggerate this and I said, well, it's a very simple piece of math. For goodness sake, we have both values in the document, in the government file. At the time, this file was in my office. Now it's at the National Archives. I thought, well, how much higher value is the radiation level that they recorded from the background. And the answer is it's 6.66 times higher.
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
And again, wait a minute, that's the number of the beast. So as much as you look, I'm not trying to scare people. But I mentioned a secret too terrible to be told. I've mentioned the faction that thinks this is demonic. But when you come across the 666 like that, both in the Rendlesham Code, but also in just the math, I mean, that's like anyone can do the math.
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
Pi is going to be pi anywhere in the universe. This... You know, anyone can run those two figures and they get the same answer. That's kind of disturbing. And staying on the subject of the radiation, again, it's one of the reasons why this is such an important story. Some of...
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
Now, Monroe Neville's disaster preparedness officer, he had with him, of course, one of the, you know, the dosimeters that you have that will change color if you are exposed to too high a dose of radiation. So scientists that work with nuclear materials will routinely wear these sorts of things. And if they turn red, get the hell out of the room.
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
I don't think it was at that level, but it was clearly... My point is it was not, as some sceptics might say, statistically insignificant. It was significant. And some of the witnesses claim that in later years they...
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
Some of the witnesses went to the VA. They said, we encountered UAP in 1980 whilst on duty. We would like some help. We want a VA doctor to see us and treat us. In fact, one of the witnesses was kind of, you know, on the patio in my house the day before he went in for... heart surgery at the VA facility in Tucson. And he said, Nick, this might be the last time I see you. It's been fun.
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
I'm glad we got the book out. It's quite a profound moment. Fortunately, he made it. But the point is these people, yeah, it's not just... telling the story. And the VA said, what do you mean, you know, UAP while on duty? That's crazy. UAP don't exist. This was before... We knew what we know now about ATIP and, you know, because people forget.
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
I think people forget that prior to 2017, if you were a journalist, for example, running a story on this and you went to the Pentagon... and asked a spokesperson for a line. The line would be, nobody's interested in this. We haven't had a program, didn't have anything, you know, after end of 1969 when we closed down Project Blue Book. Right, right. Well, we know that that's not...
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
But you knew that it was one where you could not make mistakes. Mistakes would have consequences. And I like that. I like... being challenged like that. So that was my first job. Then I had a job that had to do with recruiting into the Air Force. And I got involved in, for example, the debate, which is quite timely here in the US, about whether women...
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
Now, but at the time when these guys were saying, hey, we've got some health issue because of the UAP we encountered at Rendlesham, VA was like, you know, get out of here. Yeah, right. So now, fortunately, they got hold of a lawyer called Pat Frasconia who put in hundreds of hours of pro bono work
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
on their behalf because he was so passionate about this and convinced and because it was the right thing to do. They then in parallel went to Senator John McCain. And one of Senator McCain's staffers, Cheryl, I've gone a blank on her last name. She was the, you know, in any Senator's office, they'll get a whole bunch of inquiries from constituents. And a lot of them will be on the same subject.
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
So social security, immigration, the ASUs, and they'll have, each Senator will have like some one person that does this one, that, and they'll be deep specialists. Cheryl, she looked into this and said, well, okay, went to the DOD, the US Air Force. I want the medical records of these people who claim that they were injured on duty.
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
First of all, they came back and said, oh, this guy was not in the Air Force in 1980. And it was like, what? All his chain of command... Remember, it was like right up to senior level. We served with this guy. I've got pictures of myself with this guy. Then, so they tried that. Well, that's what they said. Then when, no, no, no, we're not accepting that. He was there. Then it's like, oh, okay.
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
But you can't have his medical records because part of them are classified, right? And she's like, Cheryl is like, what do you mean classified? Medical records can obviously are covered by HIPAA in terms of the personal confidentiality, but we have authority from the person concerned. Right, right, right. You know, we want these medical records.
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
And she said to me that she had never seen this before in her years of handling VA issues. There was something about these people's medical records. Now, then I came up with a little piece of the puzzle. And I remembered... that British intelligence, the defense intelligence within the Ministry of Defense,
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
had done an intelligence assessment of UAP, not of any individual case, but of the phenomenon as a whole, just like you might do an intelligence assessment on Russian aircraft production or Chinese aircraft carriers. We'd said, let's do an intelligence assessment on the phenomenon. And the final report, has been declassified and released. Large parts of it still withheld.
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
So if you, and it's on the Ministry of Defence website. But again, large parts of it still blacked out because it's classified. But I remembered a line in there that they had released. I was surprised they had released it, but once it's released, like I say, I can discuss things that are either unclassified or declassified. This was a very high classification. This report was secret UKIs only.
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
would be allowed to fly fast jets, combat missions, things like that. At the time, they were not, and then they were. So I was involved in that policy review and then that policy change. I did a whole bunch of different things. I did some jobs that had to do with... One of the most interesting ones was the last one I had where it was to do with military policing and counterterrorism.
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
That's only one down from top secret. But they released it. And I was, okay, I'm surprised. But if it's out there, I can now legitimately and legally go to the lawyer and go to the staffer and say, hey, people... Look at this. And there it was in black and white in this declassified British intelligence assessment.
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
And it said the well-reported Rendlesham Forest, and I'm paraphrasing, but the well-reported Rendlesham Forest incident is a case where it might be postulated that witnesses had been exposed to UAP radiation for longer time periods than normal. Bang. Now the most interesting thing about that is just says UAP radiation. Most people would be going, is that a thing?
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
And yes, according to British intelligence, that is a thing. So I said to Pat and to Cheryl, this will help. They then said, hey, to the VA, they went back to the VA and said, hey, you know these people that first you tried to say they weren't there, then you said that the medical records are classified. Well, take a look at this. Next thing, okay, we'll settle. Right.
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
Obviously, some of the people involved have gone public about some of this, but others have not. So I'm going to be very, very careful here. And that's why I'm deliberately not naming names. How many people total were involved? Again, I'm not going to go there because I just want to be very careful on the side of caution about what has not been publicly disclosed. Okay. Firstly...
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
Under HIPAA, because while I know who's spoken about it and who hasn't, I just don't want to make a slip and say anything to do with anyone's medical records in terms of conditions and names that they themselves have not put out there. And B, of course, we are right... Matt, we are right on the line here. Remember, I talked about not crossing this line.
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
You and I have walked right up to this line. When I say that this line came from a declassified intelligence assessment and that I'm surprised it was released, and when I'm talking about, you know, we're right on the line here, I think, yeah, so that's why I'm being careful. Because, again... The British Official Secrets Act, which is my NDA, is binding for life.
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
The fact that I've left government service is completely irrelevant. Right. It's binding for life.
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
It is. You can go to prison for breaking the Official Secrets Act. And people have... gone to prison. I don't believe anyone has ever gone to prison for disclosing UAP-related information. But when I look at some of the things going on in the US at the moment, I think some people have... They're getting close. Yeah, they're getting close. And it makes you wonder.
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
We talked about the Dirty Tricks campaign that elements in the intelligence community used against David Krush. I would not be surprised if at some point they pick one of these whistleblowers and they say, we're going to go after this guy.
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
To discourage the others.
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
Now, this is where it gets tricky because, of course, whistleblower protections are... written into the law.
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
Yes, and with UAP, of course, you've got a problem. If somebody leaks information to the Chinese government on missile technology, that's very easy. Nobody would, no reasonable person would condone And there's no problem going after them. And everyone would understand it. But the moment you go after someone for...
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
leaking classified, still classified UAP information, even if the law would allow you to, because whistleblower protections, it's not like a total get out of jail free card. It's, you know, you can do some things, but you can't disclose classified information without lawful authority. Right. Yeah.
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
One day they'll come after someone, but the problem that they would have with that is that the moment you came after, as you say, there would be pushback from the public, but also there would be a, well, hey, if you're telling us, if Arrow is telling us that there's no evidence, if the official line, notwithstanding everything we've discussed, but if the official line is that this is all just, there's no hard evidence,
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
And I got to go on brief trips to places like Kosovo and Iraq That was very interesting. But of course, the thing that I am known for is the UFO job, which is a posting that I had from 1991 through to 1994.
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
that this is real. If that's not true, going after someone for leaking classified UAP information might actually confirm that that line's not true. So always when you're applying this, they'll be saying, Three questions. Firstly, did the person break the law? Secondly, is there a realistic prospect of securing a conviction? But thirdly, and this is more nebulous, is it in the public interest?
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
And that... I've done this from the inside. When I first came across that and I said, what does that actually mean? A very clever person smiled and said to me, it means anything we want it to mean. So I know we've gone a little off Rendlesham, but... It is interesting. And like I said, this whole business of the radioactivity levels, it's in this highly classified document. The VA settled.
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
But right up until they did, it was a... I don't mean this in a lighthearted way, but it was... It's a little bit of a dance.
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
It would be speculation. I think I'll flip it around and I'll say, I tell you what I don't think it is. I don't think it's a weapon. I think if it was a weapon, it would probably be more potent. And I know that's anthropocentric, but how can we not be? You know, I think the injuries... And this kind of segues us, and it's not an area of...
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
but it segues us into the related issue of Havana syndrome. And some of the issues may be similar, others may be different. But I think it's a byproduct. I don't think it's deliberate that whatever is behind UAP has set out to make these people sick. I think it came from people getting too close or staying too long.
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
And yeah, it could be that that tells us something about the propulsion system, the energy source, whatever it is, whichever of those both. But, you know, heck, it could be anything. I mean, people say it's one of those anthropocentric questions. People say, why would a UFO need lights?
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
like thinking they're being clever like oh why would a ufo need lights like aircraft have them as anti-collision lights well we don't know what function lights on uap have so it's it's it's a clever question but not in the sort of sneering way that the skeptics sometimes mean it it is a genuinely interesting question in if you ask it in the right way i what
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
Yes. Immediately afterwards, I had a job relating to financial policy. And that was policy when defence does things that are not core defence tasks. So, for example, where does something like counter-narcotics fit in that? Or even working with the film and TV industry. I literally sat in a room, for example, with Barbara Broccoli and we discussed...
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
The light is clearly being emitted, but from what? Is it a propulsion system? Is it an energy source? Is it a decoration? I mean, we put... We put factual information on the side of things. Whether we're talking about symbols on a craft or patterns on the side of one of our airplanes. But sometimes we stick things on to decorate something.
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
Of course, there's all sorts of tail art on planes, particularly if you go back to the Second World War, whether it's scantily clad ladies wearing on the tail or whether it's making the front of the aircraft look like a shark. We do those sorts of things. If we're dealing with an NHI, who knows what they do or what that symbolizes.
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
So, you know, yeah, can't not look at it through an anthropocentric lens because we have no other lens, but it's worth some thought, I think.
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
Yeah, I don't think so. I'm as confident as I can be that it has a non-conventional explanation.
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
Regarding British cases, I would think two others are the Cosford incident and the Calvin incident. I was going to say, I don't know who names these, but actually I do. The Cosford incident, I kind of named because that was in the middle of my posting. Calvin is a case with a good photo. Cosford, we don't have photos, but we have a declassified file with over 100 documents in it.
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
That one's less known about, right? Yeah, very few people have heard about that. This subject, I feel, is still very US-centric. Right. The British government, I mean, actually, they terminated their UFO program at the end of 2009. Right. although there are some rumours that either it continued but ceased to become public-facing.
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
And there's another related rumour that it was effectively taken over by the US government and maybe run through a private contractor to take it further outside the scope of the Freedom of Information Act to make... parliamentary and congressional oversight more difficult, that sort of thing.
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
Okay, let's do this one first. This is Calvin, yes. And there's three images. This is an image that came out recently. Ufologists have been Following a trail of breadcrumbs for nearly 30 years, and I think I threw the first crumb, because I wrote a book way back in 1996 called Open Skies, Closed Minds, about some of the ministry defence issues.
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
files and cases and and now we've declassified and again for people saying oh how come he can talk about this the ministry of defense has declassified and released over 60 000 pages of documents on uap quite a lot of which i wrote and and this was a case i first wrote about in 1996 and I didn't say very much about it at the time because I wasn't, you know, again, I wanted not to cross that line.
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
But I said, we have a very interesting case. August 1990, two people out, one evening, twilight in Scotland. They saw a diamond-shaped craft that, with a military jet either, you know, circling around the area, either trying to intercept it or maybe escorting it. This object was virtually stationary and then moved off slowly at first and then very rapidly, but moved off vertically.
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
her wanting to use a Royal Navy ship in the movie Tomorrow Never Dies. And I was like, well, how is the Navy going to be portrayed in this? What's going to happen to the ship? And she said, well, it's going to sink. And I'm like, well... Not for real, but in the movie. And I'm like, well, how is this good publicity?
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
And I said for, you know, we, This took place about a year before I joined. So my predecessor did the investigation, but I, as I kind of joke, inherited the fallout of this. And... And ufologists had followed this trail and been trying to get hold of this picture for decades. And previously, there are three images. So what you're looking at here, this is an image which recently a retired...
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
Royal Air Force press officer called Craig Lindsay came forward with this photo and he's given it, for example, to James Fox. a documentary filmmaker who's made a number of movies on this. Yeah, great, great films. His latest one called The Program. And this story features here. And Craig Lindsay is the guy who came forward with this picture. And he said, this is one of six pictures.
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
And the story that I told back in 1996 was that we had six pictures and the associated negatives We looked at them, our intelligence community imagery analysts looked at them. They said, this object is real. It's pretty big, maybe 75 feet across. It's not a hoax. And, yeah, we want to know what it is in terms of, you know, it's one of the things.
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
You get something like this and you say, well, it doesn't seem to have any obvious means of propulsion. Where are the wings? Where's the tail? Where's all the different parts? And if it doesn't utilize that, how's it staying up there? What's the propulsion system? And... if we can figure that out, can we maybe replicate it and achieve some sort of quantum leap breakthrough?
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
But it goes back to the point, just actually to finish off something you asked about Rendlesham, and could it be conventional? Your question with all of this is always, look, I know... There are, of course, secret prototype aircraft missiles and drones. At any time, we're test flying things that you won't see for 5, 10, 15 years, whatever it is.
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
But Rendlesham Forest is now over 40 years in the past. If this was our tech or an adversary's tech, where is that tech? Why haven't we seen that now?
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
And she's like, well, you know, they all go down fighting and very brave and things. Anyway, slightly off topic, but just to give you an insight into all the different things that... that you can do in a career in the Ministry of Defense. And it's, you know, one moment you're doing finance, the next you're doing counterterrorism, the next you're doing recruitment. And I liked that.
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
Yeah, yeah. So Craig Lindsay said, this is one of six photos. And the story was that we'd gotten all that material from actually from a newspaper. Originally, the witnesses went to a British newspaper and they said, hey, we've got the UFO story of the century. The newspaper came to us at the Ministry of Defense and said, we're going to run this story.
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
We need a line from you on UFOs more generally, but specifically this case. Somebody at the Ministry of Defence, again, not guilty, it was before my time, had obviously said, well, if you want a line, we'll need the photos and we'll need the negatives. Big mistake. They never got them back. And the newspaper never ran a story. And the witnesses... have never come forward again.
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
Now, people have read all sorts of things into that. There have been stories that they received a visit from, from the men in black shall we say and that conversations were had suggesting it would be wise not to talk about this i'm i'm being euphemistic here of course um and and so ufologists have been chasing this for years craig lindsey comes out with this photo james fox uh
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
Puts it in the program. My line on this, just so that I don't cross the line, I have not commented on whether this is one of the original six pictures. The reason I haven't commented is that the Ministry of Defence has not commented. Okay. So that's a picture that's doing the rounds. We've got two other pictures.
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
A few years ago, I worked on a TV program, and I had said that for years we had – obviously, I'd seen this image in the files. I'd been to classified intelligence briefings about this – And the Ministry of Defense, then when it declassified and released the file, I was saying to people, well, when they release that file, then they will release the six images, and then I can really talk about it.
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
But I'm not going to prevent my crossing the line. I am not going to cross. I'm not going to preempt them. Yeah. So I said, what I can do is, and this is right on the line, I said, what I can do is from my memory and from actually if we can go to the third, yeah, that, when they declassified that particular file, this was in it. And it looks...
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
like some sort of cartoon image or kid's drawing or something. It is actually a photocopy of a line drawing of one of the six photos. And in intelligence community imagery analysis, I won't go into the precise details or reasons because I think that's classified, but there are reasons that you do line drawings. It's part of that particular intelligence work. So that...
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
was in the declassified file. So when that was in the declassified file, I thought, okay, I've been asked by a TV company who are doing a documentary on this to say, well, can't we do a little better than that? Nick, you saw those six images. They must be burned into your memory. Using that as a prompt, can you recreate that? what the image or one of the six images actually looked like.
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
So I sat down with a very skilled graphic artist in Los Angeles for a couple of days, and we came up with that. Now, if you flick back between those two images, I don't think that's bad.
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
And so then... Craig Lindsay comes out with that. So if you can now maybe flick between that and the CGI one, if you look at that, if people like... Ah, yeah, great, good. Bear in mind that I had not seen the actual photo for 25 years, whatever it was. If you go from...
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
My CGI recreation, top left, to the Craig Lindsay photo, it's... If people believe the Craig Lindsay photo is the real deal, then, though I say so myself... My memory's not bad.
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
Yeah, it's fantastic. But look, whichever way you view this, that this is a fascinating case. Yep. Now, I have to say the skeptical theory on this one is that this might be a case where we are talking classified aerospace tech, right? And there's a big clue in the date of the incident. The date of the incident is August the 4th, 1990.
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
I'm not sure I would characterize it like that, but I would say that from day one I was absolutely being tested and I joined for a while what was called Midit, which stood for... Gosh, let me think what it did stand for. Method of identifying and developing internal talent. And it was a kind of fast stream. There were several fast streams. Some were not as fast as others.
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
And students of history will instantly remember that that was two days after Saddam Hussein invaded Kuwait. And what was happening? At that time, almost every single special forces unit in the United States and the United Kingdom was thinking, well, we're going to be deployed, I'm sure. So even ahead of our political masters making that decision, let's get ready.
Matt Beall Limitless
Former Head of Britain's UAP dept talks UFOs, UAPs, Disclosure, and MoD Incidents | Nick Pope #38
Let's anticipate the call, dust off our shiny new toys and get ready to go. So I am not... Obviously, I'm not saying that as a definitive explanation, but I'm throwing that into the conversation for people to think about. And it shows that, as always, there is a very fine line between discussions about this sort of thing and discussions about secret prototype aircraft.