Molly Webster
👤 PersonPodcast Appearances
And then to get to the patch of the ocean north of Seattle where the whales actually live.
I love the idea of, like, being an orca.
But there is something in me that, like, just sort of fundamentally chafes at the idea that I have to be useful in some way.
Like, whether that's, like, being a caretaker or being, like, hunter-in-chief.
Like, it's like I always have to prove my worth if I'm not there to have babies.
I think you'll be kind of happy to hear that...
You know, that's not the only idea that science has about menopause.
When we come back from break, I'm going to tell you about another animal that's, I don't know, I think you might like this one.
We're back for the second part of this episode.
We're talking about menopause and how it's super weird.
We thought for a long time we're the only ones who did it.
And then scientists learned about orcas.
And scientists started watching them and they sort of thought, oh, maybe we're solving this evolutionary puzzle.
So again, this is this guy, Kevin Langergraber.
One important detail that I didn't mention before about Kevin is that every year for the past 25 years, Kevin has spent time living what he calls chimp life.
working on this thing called the Ngogo Chimpanzee Project.
And then he spends the rest of his day just watching them.
They're grooming, they're hunting, they're eating.
So kind of right from the beginning of his time there, Kevin started to notice something interesting about the older female chimps.
But the actual reason Lucy was there was to get on a boat.
She's an old-timey silent movie character.
Kevin's actually known Garbo from the very beginning, since she was about 50.
But for the last 25 years, he's never seen her have a baby.
But the thing Kevin wanted to figure out was like, is Garbo an anomaly or is this something that's happening to more chimps than just her?
And to get to the bottom of that, he had to collect.
And he puts a little plastic bag on the end of the Y.
And you get this stream of pee to connect with your stick.
Now, these pee samples, they're sort of like the whale poop.
They can tell you a lot about what's happening in the bodies of individual chimps, like Garbo, for example.
So when Kevin analyzed her samples and the samples of the other older female chimps.
And I mean like they go through menopause.
It's very similar to the human experience.
Kevin was very careful to mention that like I can't speak to hot flashes.
Like I can't speak to some of the physical symptoms or like the emotional swings.
And that cessation, it's pretty similar to the pattern in humans.
And after that, they just keep on living their lives for decades sometimes, just like humans and just like the whales.
Actually, when they did all that orca research, they actually found out that there were a handful of other whales that are really similar to orcas that also go through menopause.
But chimps are the third major animal group we know of that experience this long life after menopause.
Is Garbo also scratching her head asking what life is for after menopause?
Okay, so I'm going to like paint you a picture of what Garbo's life is like.
Okay, so before she stopped having babies, she had three sons.
By the way, why don't they name them like Steve or something?
Okay, so Monk and Richmond actually aren't alive anymore.
But let's just, like, imagine a time when they all were alive.
Because, like, long story short, a big part of Garbo's day is hanging out with her sons.
Oh, like, they didn't even know they were related until they did the genetic testing.
And they were like, oh, I guess she had three sons, not just two.
Anyway, so all day, Garbo, Hutcherson, and Richman would be together.
Like kind of running their fingers through her hair and picking out bugs and like scratching her little back.
In the movie version of this, they would bring it to her on like a silver platter and honor her.
I mean, that's what's happening in my head.
So does that mean she doesn't have to hunt for herself?
So I kind of notice here what you're not hearing.
So Garbo is not making Christmas cookies for her grandchildren.
She's not doing anything toward the youth.
Kevin and a bunch of the other scientists started looking into, like, what is going on here?
I love that we've gone from like the grandmother hypothesis, which feels so loving, to reproductive conflict.
Well, bear with me because in some ways it's maybe the opposite or it's maybe not quite what you think it's going to be.
And the theory itself is like a little bit convoluted, but the big idea is that there's a sort of subtle evolutionary calculation that
Apparently you can learn a lot about whales by looking at their poop.
Hidden in the way chimpanzee females set up their families.
When you first get into that new family, you're not related to anybody around you.
Then you have one family member, your son, who does have your genes.
As you grow into an older female chimp.
If you look at the larger group that the chimp female is part of.
Yeah, it's just how basic ecology works.
And so if you're this older female chimp and you're looking around, maybe there are like new young females that have just joined your family.
Hormones, microbes, environmental chemicals.
So what they do is they go out in the boat until they spot this group of killer whales.
So it's like Garbo and other older female chimps can contribute to the group and get a benefit themselves just by bowing out and doing their own thing.
Well, apparently, so this gets kind of like mathy and nitpicky, but Kevin says that the benefits of these older females bowing out, they like don't quite make up for the fact that they're like living these long, luxurious post-reproductive lives, like painting their nails and eating monkey meat.
So it's like maybe it doesn't quite work.
So is Kevin about to swoop in and be like, I've got my own hypothesis?
There's like not a grand universal theory of post-reproductive females.
And it's still just like a real open question of why we or orcas or chimps live this long post-reproductive life.
I mean, honestly, there's a part of me that's like, thank God, because if we had actually found an answer, it would have felt so prescriptive.
It makes me feel like it would have been kind of sad.
I mean, I think it would be kind of limiting.
And I think the thing is, one of the things I've loved about this reporting process of the story isn't really learning the theories, which are kind of confusing in a lot of ways, but actually learning about these specific animals like Granny and Garbo and just imagining their lives.
Like, what do they do during that time?
And I feel like I've gotten to a point in my reporting where I'm much more interested in the what they're doing than the why does this happen, if that makes any sense.
And at some point, I also remembered that there is, of course, that third animal that goes through menopause and has a long post-reproductive life.
I mean, to be fair, Caroline also wrote an entire book that's basically a study of how women live their lives after menopause.
And so I went to her and I asked her like, OK, there's Granny, there's Garbo.
I'm like, Heather just got her driver's license.
Yeah, I didn't just get it, but I am learning how to drive alone on the road.
So, you know, everyone's in a different moment of their life.
When she started to have menopause symptoms or really perimenopause symptoms.
But this all kind of tracked with what she was expecting to happen because she, like kind of all of us, had heard that this time in her life would be pretty brutal.
The only thing you hear it feels like is how dreadful it will be.
She felt like a lot calmer and clearer.
And for this part of her life, she told me really the only messaging she was getting is what, like, not to do.
Because women, as they get older, are getting told things like... We have to watch our bones.
But beyond that, she kind of didn't have a roadmap.
Meanwhile, men her age, everywhere they look, they have tons of scripts, tons of icons.
And she was like, why can't we have that?
And she met all these different women in their 60s and 70s and 80s that were doing like totally badass stuff.
These are not women who are worried about bones breaking.
But, you know, as somebody who's maybe not the most physically adventurous person, I also really appreciated some of the other stories she told me about women who were going on quieter but still very meaningful adventures.
And she talked to this kind of amazing woman who learned how to swim in her 60s.
And it was very scary for her, but she still pushed herself to do it.
So what she found was, like, not just a bunch of role models for her, but she also found that for a lot of these women...
finding new possibilities for their life, and they kind of had these new capacities for awe and wonder and bravery that they had never tapped into before.
It's like the minute hypothesis is just to flip the script or something, but no script is the script.
Does the whale poop float at the surface?
Good luck on your... On my driving journey?
Not on the driving journey, the menopause journey.
Yeah, maybe we'll be holding hands and base jumping together.
Heather might not have jumped out of planes, but she has done plenty of stories for us over the years.
And one of them is a very delightful conversation with Lulu and Latif called Butt Stuff.
And it is based on Heather's book called Butts, A Backstory.
By the way, Lucy Cook's latest book has a bunch of other stories about the lives of families.
females of many, many different species.
And when you are done with that, you can just move on over to Tough Broad by Caroline Paul.
It is a book about the outdoors and aging and how those things go together.
Special thanks to Daniel Friedman, Rachel Gross, Sam Wasser, Sam Ellis, and Kate Radke.
This episode was reported by Heather Radke with help from Becca Bressler.
And then they just lean over the side of the boat with this plastic lab vial on the end of a stick.
It was produced by Sara Khari and Becca Bressler.
It was also edited by Becca Bressler and fact-checked by Emily Krieger.
I now have to do something on these credits that I don't really want to do, which is actually say goodbye to the Becca Bressler, who you just heard a ton about.
This is Becca's last episode at Radiolab.
You may remember her for her on-air hits about voter profiling and the economics of food delivery systems and that one thing about the bug bite tool and whether or not it works.
On the inside of the show, we know her for all of that and also her just like crazy fast editing style, like her strategy brain, her sharp, sharp, sharp sense of humor and also her ability to sing Billy Joel at a level that is unbelievable and I hope you all get to hear at some point.
I can't believe it's been eight years and...
Yeah, I can't wait to see what you do next.
I feel like I haven't seen you since like last summer.
So the reason Lucy went to visit Giles and these whales is because the scientists who study them had noticed something odd.
When they got to be around like 40 or so, the female whales just stopped having babies, even though they lived to be 70, 80, even like 100 years old.
At first, the scientists thought they were having miscarriages, maybe, or there was some kind of pollutant in the water or something that was causing these older females to stop having babies.
I'm sitting in for Lulu and Latif today, since we were in Michigan, with our contributing editor, Heather Radke.
But in 2017, Giles and this colleague of hers, Sam Wasser, published a poop analysis that confirmed a very different hypothesis that people had been considering for a couple decades.
They wrote, and I quote here, the females in the population have undergone reproductive senescence.
Yeah, which was like not a word I knew, but maybe you know it, I don't know.
It's like a fancy way of saying that at a certain age, the reproductive system of these whales started to physiologically shut down.
And along with a lot of other observations about the whales and autopsies of beach whales, they were able to, like, confirm that these whales were going through menopause.
I guess I maybe would have expected them to go through menopause.
I'm like... Well, you kind of should be surprised because... Okay.
Actually, up until they figured this out about the whales, scientists widely believed that menopause was a uniquely human thing.
Out of like 6,000 some species of mammals, they thought we were the only ones.
I'm going to assume you have a story to tell us.
And freaks because if you think about it scientifically, menopause is actually very weird.
Is this sort of you saying like this is weird or do you think scientists are like, yo, this is weird?
So a little while back, I had a conversation with one of Radiolab's favorite science writers.
And Kevin says from an evolutionary point of view, no animal should have what he calls the substantial post-reproductive lifespan.
I asked him if we could say something more fun, and he said no.
Anyway, the point is, it's the living for a long time after you can no longer reproduce.
And if you're not having babies, you're not sending your genes into the next generation.
And is natural selection really that cut and dry that it's if you're not contributing to the genetic pool, you should be out?
If there were a human woman who could keep having babies for her whole life until she dies, she would genetically at least outcompete the women who can't.
So it sort of seems like there should be some evolutionary genetic reason for the reproductive system to kind of peter out before the human person does.
Now, one of the most common things people say when they hear about this is that in humans, this is kind of like a fluke of modern life.
So the idea being that in olden times, we used to die around menopause.
And so this long post-reproductive life is just because now we live longer than we used to.
But it turns out, actually, that's not the case.
In ancient times, people also lived to be about 70.
I just thought it was like the only people who did were like royals who were highly attended to.
She's like this globe-trotting tracker of amazing animal stories.
So there's this interesting thing where, like, we get these average life expectancy numbers.
And the average is taken to account the fact that people die before, like, the age of five because they die in childbirth.
So if you account for that, you see that many women were, in fact, living 20, 25 years, 30 years after they could no longer reproduce.
So humans have been going through menopause, like, for the entire history of humans.
And back to Lucy, she says that going into menopause for her was pretty brutal.
She's been to Panama to meet stoned dwarf sloths.
And it's pretty brutal for a lot of women.
Yeah, it's a pretty intense way to put it.
She went to Sweden to track drunken moose.
For such a long time, it's been completely ignored by science, by culture.
And probably partly because of that, I do think a lot of women...
So when I heard that killer whales went through menopause, it felt like a chance to ask, what is this time in her life for?
And then a little while back, while she was working on her latest book... I was...
In a kind of different, more scientific way.
So this is a scientist named Darren Croft.
He's part of this huge team that's been studying these killer whales for like decades now.
And so what the scientists watching these whales day in, day out have seen is that... There's a lot of purpose.
Lives that could make sense in like a cold, hard evolutionary logic kind of way.
So, for example, Giles and Darren told us about this one particular female killer whale named...
And in particular, the scientists noticed she's actually a killer grandma.
So Granny's part of this sort of multi-generational pod.
When Darren and his colleagues did a study of these killer whales, they found that the whales that had postmenopausal grandmas around, like Granny... Whales who aren't having babies of their own anymore.
The young had higher chances of survival than the whales who had no grandmas or even had grandmas who were premenopausal.
So the grandmas who couldn't have babies anymore were more helpful than the grandmas who were still having babies.
And this actually gave like a lot of support to an idea that people have been thinking about in terms of humans, actually, for a while.
I feel like I hear a lot about the grandmother hypothesis, but I'm not even sure I know how it works.
But it's basically what we just learned with the whales.
There's something that makes a lot of, I'll just say as a person with a two-year-old child, like makes a lot of sense to me.
Like, you know, like my mother is just like incredibly helpful and useful.
It's not scientific, but we feel how this is like makes some amount of sense to be true.
So this hypothesis is just like your evolutionary purpose is to be a mom, even if you are no longer being a mom.
Yeah, I mean, that's kind of the cultural takeaway.
That's like what most of us think of, if you've ever heard of this before.
But when you look at the whales, it goes way beyond that.
Like the older killer whale female, she's actually kind of running the show.
It was a discovery that directly speaks to something that lots of humans are actually going to have to contend with at some point in their lives, including Lucy herself and me and you.
They play diplomat or keeper of the peace, especially with the younger male whales.
But also they're like hunter-in-chief, leading the pod to find food to feed everybody.
Granny and her family have basically always exclusively eaten salmon.
But Granny, with her 11-pound, super-intelligent brain, she can remember things from like 25 years ago.
And the scientists could like literally see this play out as they were watching the whales on these hunts.
They're like totally crucial to the survival of the group.
Does it make you think about your experience as a woman?
I mean, whenever I ask scientists this question, they're like, don't ask this question.
But I guess did like looking the orca in the eye and thinking about granny change anything for you?
And if you can tap into that mechanism, There are some very real world practical things that you might be able to do, which we'll get into right after this break.
And if you can tap into that mechanism, There are some very real world practical things that you might be able to do, which we'll get into right after this break.
And if you can tap into that mechanism, There are some very real world practical things that you might be able to do, which we'll get into right after this break.
I'm Molly Webster. This is Radiolab. And that was Ghul Dolan, a neuroscientist and former teen. But unlike maybe the rest of us former teens, Ghul's very familiar teenage struggle would end up at the center of her scientific work and lead to new ways of seeing the moments in our lives when our most basic habits and behaviors emerge. And then get locked in.
I'm Molly Webster. This is Radiolab. And that was Ghul Dolan, a neuroscientist and former teen. But unlike maybe the rest of us former teens, Ghul's very familiar teenage struggle would end up at the center of her scientific work and lead to new ways of seeing the moments in our lives when our most basic habits and behaviors emerge. And then get locked in.
I'm Molly Webster. This is Radiolab. And that was Ghul Dolan, a neuroscientist and former teen. But unlike maybe the rest of us former teens, Ghul's very familiar teenage struggle would end up at the center of her scientific work and lead to new ways of seeing the moments in our lives when our most basic habits and behaviors emerge. And then get locked in.
I'm Molly Webster. This is Radiolab. We are back in the saddle with neuroscientist Gul Dolin. She's been telling us about how psychedelics can reopen critical periods in the brain. And where it goes from here, in a way, just gets more practical because I think we've all been hearing about studies in which psychedelics are curing various afflictions.
I'm Molly Webster. This is Radiolab. We are back in the saddle with neuroscientist Gul Dolin. She's been telling us about how psychedelics can reopen critical periods in the brain. And where it goes from here, in a way, just gets more practical because I think we've all been hearing about studies in which psychedelics are curing various afflictions.
I'm Molly Webster. This is Radiolab. We are back in the saddle with neuroscientist Gul Dolin. She's been telling us about how psychedelics can reopen critical periods in the brain. And where it goes from here, in a way, just gets more practical because I think we've all been hearing about studies in which psychedelics are curing various afflictions.
So like MDMA is helping with PTSD or psilocybin, a.k.a. magic mushrooms, can help with depression. And Gould says that she thinks her study, the one that she did with mice, that it might be able to provide a clue about how those treatments are doing what they do.
So like MDMA is helping with PTSD or psilocybin, a.k.a. magic mushrooms, can help with depression. And Gould says that she thinks her study, the one that she did with mice, that it might be able to provide a clue about how those treatments are doing what they do.
So like MDMA is helping with PTSD or psilocybin, a.k.a. magic mushrooms, can help with depression. And Gould says that she thinks her study, the one that she did with mice, that it might be able to provide a clue about how those treatments are doing what they do.
That's very interesting that in a way, it's not the psychedelic. I mean, the presence of the psychedelic is allowing something else in the brain, like an experience or whatever, to have an action.
That's very interesting that in a way, it's not the psychedelic. I mean, the presence of the psychedelic is allowing something else in the brain, like an experience or whatever, to have an action.
That's very interesting that in a way, it's not the psychedelic. I mean, the presence of the psychedelic is allowing something else in the brain, like an experience or whatever, to have an action.
And it all starts with something called critical periods. Okay. So for like us, you know, yokels over here, like what is a critical learning period?
And it all starts with something called critical periods. Okay. So for like us, you know, yokels over here, like what is a critical learning period?
And it all starts with something called critical periods. Okay. So for like us, you know, yokels over here, like what is a critical learning period?
Gould says that when you use a psychedelic in the right context, it actually opens up the brain at a cellular level so that the neurons can reorganize themselves. And in that reorganization, they can create new patterns and new pathways that allow for learning and maybe even healing. So really what these drugs do is create a window of opportunity for How long was that period seemingly open for?
Gould says that when you use a psychedelic in the right context, it actually opens up the brain at a cellular level so that the neurons can reorganize themselves. And in that reorganization, they can create new patterns and new pathways that allow for learning and maybe even healing. So really what these drugs do is create a window of opportunity for How long was that period seemingly open for?
Gould says that when you use a psychedelic in the right context, it actually opens up the brain at a cellular level so that the neurons can reorganize themselves. And in that reorganization, they can create new patterns and new pathways that allow for learning and maybe even healing. So really what these drugs do is create a window of opportunity for How long was that period seemingly open for?
the trip. The trip, right. The length of the
the trip. The trip, right. The length of the
the trip. The trip, right. The length of the
Because everyone had to go home for dinner. And you're like, we can't test this anymore. I mean, it's just sort of interesting because you think... even four days four days two weeks more than a month like are you just in those moments like vulnerable to everything are you like it just feels like the the next couple of weeks like solidly matter
Because everyone had to go home for dinner. And you're like, we can't test this anymore. I mean, it's just sort of interesting because you think... even four days four days two weeks more than a month like are you just in those moments like vulnerable to everything are you like it just feels like the the next couple of weeks like solidly matter
Because everyone had to go home for dinner. And you're like, we can't test this anymore. I mean, it's just sort of interesting because you think... even four days four days two weeks more than a month like are you just in those moments like vulnerable to everything are you like it just feels like the the next couple of weeks like solidly matter
It's funny. Yeah, I think about, I mean, recreational psychedelics use. People are doing it all the time. At least in my world. And like now I just like want to be like, OK, for for the next two weeks, if you could, you know, be careful or maybe go if you go take a yoga class, if you really want to learn that. Yeah. That technique or something. I don't know.
It's funny. Yeah, I think about, I mean, recreational psychedelics use. People are doing it all the time. At least in my world. And like now I just like want to be like, OK, for for the next two weeks, if you could, you know, be careful or maybe go if you go take a yoga class, if you really want to learn that. Yeah. That technique or something. I don't know.
It's funny. Yeah, I think about, I mean, recreational psychedelics use. People are doing it all the time. At least in my world. And like now I just like want to be like, OK, for for the next two weeks, if you could, you know, be careful or maybe go if you go take a yoga class, if you really want to learn that. Yeah. That technique or something. I don't know.
It's just the vulnerability part of it feels and vulnerability is it has such a negative connotation. But I do think it goes both ways of like it just you're vulnerable, you're malleable, you're open. That feels like a double edged sword.
It's just the vulnerability part of it feels and vulnerability is it has such a negative connotation. But I do think it goes both ways of like it just you're vulnerable, you're malleable, you're open. That feels like a double edged sword.
It's just the vulnerability part of it feels and vulnerability is it has such a negative connotation. But I do think it goes both ways of like it just you're vulnerable, you're malleable, you're open. That feels like a double edged sword.
We did an episode on it at one point. Yeah.
We did an episode on it at one point. Yeah.
We did an episode on it at one point. Yeah.
It's like social where mammals are social.
It's like social where mammals are social.
It's like social where mammals are social.
What's like the hardcore critical period that would.
What's like the hardcore critical period that would.
What's like the hardcore critical period that would.
And just real quick, why is motor neuron like the top of the mountain for critical periods?
And just real quick, why is motor neuron like the top of the mountain for critical periods?
And just real quick, why is motor neuron like the top of the mountain for critical periods?
So the main thing that Gould's team is focused on right now is designing a clinical trial for stroke patients. What they know is that generally after a stroke, the critical learning window is open for about two to three months.
So the main thing that Gould's team is focused on right now is designing a clinical trial for stroke patients. What they know is that generally after a stroke, the critical learning window is open for about two to three months.
So the main thing that Gould's team is focused on right now is designing a clinical trial for stroke patients. What they know is that generally after a stroke, the critical learning window is open for about two to three months.
Say your trial works, that you see that if you have a stroke and I give you MDMA and for two weeks we do stuff and you can gain motor neuron skills back, that's great. But imagine that you don't gain all your skills back. So then you're like, okay, well, I'm gonna do MDMA again, keep the window open for two weeks so I get a month out of this, right? Two doses, I get a month where I'm open.
Say your trial works, that you see that if you have a stroke and I give you MDMA and for two weeks we do stuff and you can gain motor neuron skills back, that's great. But imagine that you don't gain all your skills back. So then you're like, okay, well, I'm gonna do MDMA again, keep the window open for two weeks so I get a month out of this, right? Two doses, I get a month where I'm open.
Say your trial works, that you see that if you have a stroke and I give you MDMA and for two weeks we do stuff and you can gain motor neuron skills back, that's great. But imagine that you don't gain all your skills back. So then you're like, okay, well, I'm gonna do MDMA again, keep the window open for two weeks so I get a month out of this, right? Two doses, I get a month where I'm open.
I'm wondering is if you hit a point where the MDMA, your brain's like used to it.
I'm wondering is if you hit a point where the MDMA, your brain's like used to it.
I'm wondering is if you hit a point where the MDMA, your brain's like used to it.
Yeah, it's like makes me think that, you know, depending on how your stroke stuff comes out, that I want everyone to save at least one MDMA trip for themselves, you know, for when they're older, right?
Yeah, it's like makes me think that, you know, depending on how your stroke stuff comes out, that I want everyone to save at least one MDMA trip for themselves, you know, for when they're older, right?
Yeah, it's like makes me think that, you know, depending on how your stroke stuff comes out, that I want everyone to save at least one MDMA trip for themselves, you know, for when they're older, right?
I sort of want to run out of here and I'm not sure if I want to do MDMA with a therapist or if I just want to do MDMA and cuddle with people for two weeks, you know, or if I just don't want to do MDMA at all. Like maybe go hide in a cave for a while.
I sort of want to run out of here and I'm not sure if I want to do MDMA with a therapist or if I just want to do MDMA and cuddle with people for two weeks, you know, or if I just don't want to do MDMA at all. Like maybe go hide in a cave for a while.
I sort of want to run out of here and I'm not sure if I want to do MDMA with a therapist or if I just want to do MDMA and cuddle with people for two weeks, you know, or if I just don't want to do MDMA at all. Like maybe go hide in a cave for a while.
This episode was reported by me, Molly Webster. It was produced by the amazing Sindhu Nana Sambindan. There was production help from me and Timmy Broderick. And fact checking was by Emily Krieger. I want to give a huge thank you shout out to Gul Dolan, who is now at the University of California, Berkeley, and talked to me multiple, multiple times.
This episode was reported by me, Molly Webster. It was produced by the amazing Sindhu Nana Sambindan. There was production help from me and Timmy Broderick. And fact checking was by Emily Krieger. I want to give a huge thank you shout out to Gul Dolan, who is now at the University of California, Berkeley, and talked to me multiple, multiple times.
This episode was reported by me, Molly Webster. It was produced by the amazing Sindhu Nana Sambindan. There was production help from me and Timmy Broderick. And fact checking was by Emily Krieger. I want to give a huge thank you shout out to Gul Dolan, who is now at the University of California, Berkeley, and talked to me multiple, multiple times.
Special thanks also go to Charles Phillip and David Herman. And a special shout out to Roman Nardu, who is in the lab of Gul Dolan, is the postdoc we referenced earlier in the piece, the one who said, you know, let's study peer pressure. Finally, if you want that spongy brain juice, you should check out our newsletter. It's got content, extra content, insider content, fun pictures, staff recs.
Special thanks also go to Charles Phillip and David Herman. And a special shout out to Roman Nardu, who is in the lab of Gul Dolan, is the postdoc we referenced earlier in the piece, the one who said, you know, let's study peer pressure. Finally, if you want that spongy brain juice, you should check out our newsletter. It's got content, extra content, insider content, fun pictures, staff recs.
Special thanks also go to Charles Phillip and David Herman. And a special shout out to Roman Nardu, who is in the lab of Gul Dolan, is the postdoc we referenced earlier in the piece, the one who said, you know, let's study peer pressure. Finally, if you want that spongy brain juice, you should check out our newsletter. It's got content, extra content, insider content, fun pictures, staff recs.
You can go to radiolab.org slash newsletter and sign up or check out the link on the show notes. That's the show, folks. I'm Molly Webster. This is Radiolab. Catch you later.
You can go to radiolab.org slash newsletter and sign up or check out the link on the show notes. That's the show, folks. I'm Molly Webster. This is Radiolab. Catch you later.
You can go to radiolab.org slash newsletter and sign up or check out the link on the show notes. That's the show, folks. I'm Molly Webster. This is Radiolab. Catch you later.
And do we associate those critical periods with being a baby?
And do we associate those critical periods with being a baby?
And do we associate those critical periods with being a baby?
Neuroscience often makes me feel like I just started falling behind at like three months old because you're just like, oh, that window closed and that window closed and that window closed. I'm like, I'd like to think I'm 40 and the world is still my oyster, but perhaps not.
Neuroscience often makes me feel like I just started falling behind at like three months old because you're just like, oh, that window closed and that window closed and that window closed. I'm like, I'd like to think I'm 40 and the world is still my oyster, but perhaps not.
Neuroscience often makes me feel like I just started falling behind at like three months old because you're just like, oh, that window closed and that window closed and that window closed. I'm like, I'd like to think I'm 40 and the world is still my oyster, but perhaps not.
Wow, this is like creating such a feeling of like urgency in me.
Wow, this is like creating such a feeling of like urgency in me.
Wow, this is like creating such a feeling of like urgency in me.
So critical periods are great for learning and learning fast. They make us super spongy and absorbent to the world around us. But the fact that they close makes it hard to relearn something we've lost or to unlearn something that's getting in our way. But Gould, in her first lab at Johns Hopkins University, actually uncovered a whole new way of thinking about that problem.
So critical periods are great for learning and learning fast. They make us super spongy and absorbent to the world around us. But the fact that they close makes it hard to relearn something we've lost or to unlearn something that's getting in our way. But Gould, in her first lab at Johns Hopkins University, actually uncovered a whole new way of thinking about that problem.
So critical periods are great for learning and learning fast. They make us super spongy and absorbent to the world around us. But the fact that they close makes it hard to relearn something we've lost or to unlearn something that's getting in our way. But Gould, in her first lab at Johns Hopkins University, actually uncovered a whole new way of thinking about that problem.
And weirdly, it all comes down to peer pressure.
And weirdly, it all comes down to peer pressure.
And weirdly, it all comes down to peer pressure.
So Ghoul and her team, they get a bunch of mice at all different ages, and they observe them very, very closely. And she basically confirms sort of what we see anecdotally in humans, that teen mice pay attention to their friends more. They learn from their friends more.
So Ghoul and her team, they get a bunch of mice at all different ages, and they observe them very, very closely. And she basically confirms sort of what we see anecdotally in humans, that teen mice pay attention to their friends more. They learn from their friends more.
So Ghoul and her team, they get a bunch of mice at all different ages, and they observe them very, very closely. And she basically confirms sort of what we see anecdotally in humans, that teen mice pay attention to their friends more. They learn from their friends more.
But then they opened the tiny mouse brains, and what they saw is that mice, just like humans, have oxytocin, this sort of feel-good chemical that's released when we're around friends or loved ones. And they saw that the neurons in the teen mouse brains were more susceptible and sensitive to oxytocin. And so it seemed like, oh... This is a biological, neurological, critical period.
But then they opened the tiny mouse brains, and what they saw is that mice, just like humans, have oxytocin, this sort of feel-good chemical that's released when we're around friends or loved ones. And they saw that the neurons in the teen mouse brains were more susceptible and sensitive to oxytocin. And so it seemed like, oh... This is a biological, neurological, critical period.
But then they opened the tiny mouse brains, and what they saw is that mice, just like humans, have oxytocin, this sort of feel-good chemical that's released when we're around friends or loved ones. And they saw that the neurons in the teen mouse brains were more susceptible and sensitive to oxytocin. And so it seemed like, oh... This is a biological, neurological, critical period.
Like it's just not like how long do I have to be deprived? Molly's over here looking at her calendar like, what do I want to fix?
Like it's just not like how long do I have to be deprived? Molly's over here looking at her calendar like, what do I want to fix?
Like it's just not like how long do I have to be deprived? Molly's over here looking at her calendar like, what do I want to fix?
So they go back to the lab, back to the mice, who this time are going to go on a little trip.
So they go back to the lab, back to the mice, who this time are going to go on a little trip.
So they go back to the lab, back to the mice, who this time are going to go on a little trip.
Would you like peek in with like a secret telescope to see what their behavior was like in those two days?
Would you like peek in with like a secret telescope to see what their behavior was like in those two days?
Would you like peek in with like a secret telescope to see what their behavior was like in those two days?
I mean, I'm not sure. Maybe the mouse got acid-washed jeans or something.
I mean, I'm not sure. Maybe the mouse got acid-washed jeans or something.
I mean, I'm not sure. Maybe the mouse got acid-washed jeans or something.
And what Gould and her team saw is that the adult brains on MDMA, they actually went back to that sensitive teenage-like brain state.
And what Gould and her team saw is that the adult brains on MDMA, they actually went back to that sensitive teenage-like brain state.
And what Gould and her team saw is that the adult brains on MDMA, they actually went back to that sensitive teenage-like brain state.
Like the fact that it's a drug that induces social behavior is not why you're seeing social results. It's about the it's about the class of drugs of psychedelics.
Like the fact that it's a drug that induces social behavior is not why you're seeing social results. It's about the it's about the class of drugs of psychedelics.
Like the fact that it's a drug that induces social behavior is not why you're seeing social results. It's about the it's about the class of drugs of psychedelics.
Just to put that in context, it's like a dude tripping in a corner is in a way having the same experience as like a wide-eyed baby soaking up their world or a teenager who cares so much about what everyone else thinks of them. And it's not just that they're experiencing it in the same way. It's that there's an underlying deep biological mechanism that's being shared in all of those situations.
Just to put that in context, it's like a dude tripping in a corner is in a way having the same experience as like a wide-eyed baby soaking up their world or a teenager who cares so much about what everyone else thinks of them. And it's not just that they're experiencing it in the same way. It's that there's an underlying deep biological mechanism that's being shared in all of those situations.
Just to put that in context, it's like a dude tripping in a corner is in a way having the same experience as like a wide-eyed baby soaking up their world or a teenager who cares so much about what everyone else thinks of them. And it's not just that they're experiencing it in the same way. It's that there's an underlying deep biological mechanism that's being shared in all of those situations.