Melissa Murray
Appearances
NPR News Now
NPR News: 03-18-2025 3PM EDT
So it's symbolic, but it's incredibly meaningful in its symbolism.
NPR News Now
NPR News: 03-18-2025 3PM EDT
From now on, Israel will take growing action against Hamas with greater intensity. From now on, negotiations will only be under fire. Hamas has already felt over the last 24 hours The Israeli strength, and I want to promise to you and to Hamas, this is just the beginning.
The Ben Shapiro Show
Ep. 2154 - Stephen A. Smith ATTACKS Me!
Do you think your colleagues in the Democratic Party are being too civil during this time when American rights and freedoms are literally on the line?
The Bulwark Podcast
Melissa Murray and John Avlon: The Dark Legal Clouds Ahead
I mean, like, seriously, that was crazy. The other crazy thing about it, and this should actually alarm individuals who are thinking about what's going to happen in this new administration. One of the theories behind letting Donald Trump consummate dealmaker come in and handle the whole TikTok flap is,
The Bulwark Podcast
Melissa Murray and John Avlon: The Dark Legal Clouds Ahead
So the zone has been flooded with a lot of stuff. And I think the mere fact that Pam Bondi Isn't a frat paddle turned into a real live boy makes her, in this context, a credible candidate to be attorney general? I think in more normal times, there are aspects of her resume that I think might raise some questions, which is not to say that she's unqualified. She's a lawyer.
The Bulwark Podcast
Melissa Murray and John Avlon: The Dark Legal Clouds Ahead
is that Congress doesn't have the authority to pass this law because all of this is within the purview of the president. So if you thought we had separation of powers and there was a lane for Congress and a lane for the judiciary and a lane for the president, it's just one road. It's an autobahn and it's an autobahn for the president. That's basically what John Sauer was arguing in this brief. And
The Bulwark Podcast
Melissa Murray and John Avlon: The Dark Legal Clouds Ahead
Reading this, it made my head explode. It's so insane. It's so divorced from constitutional reality. It's so wild. And I literally was like, you really put your bar number on this. Okay, I guess. And that's going to be the new Solicitor General, the federal government's lawyer before the Supreme Court, the 10th Justice, as it were.
The Bulwark Podcast
Melissa Murray and John Avlon: The Dark Legal Clouds Ahead
The Solicitor General argues cases on behalf of the federal government before the United States Supreme Court. So this is the lawyer in the whole country who probably will appear before the Supreme Court the most during the administration. So it defends any laws or actions that the administration takes that are challenged in court.
The Bulwark Podcast
Melissa Murray and John Avlon: The Dark Legal Clouds Ahead
It may intervene in certain cases where there are private parties, but where the federal government has particular interests. It's a really big deal. And typically, we've had some really great people step up to the podium as Solicitor General. I'm not saying John Sauer is not a really great lawyer, but this brief, like, got to say, not the finest hour.
The Bulwark Podcast
Melissa Murray and John Avlon: The Dark Legal Clouds Ahead
But, you know, Elena Kagan was the first woman to serve as Solicitor General. Ted Olson, who... you know, I did not share the same political sensibilities with, but, you know, I really came to admire and respect Ted as a friend. And he was a really good solicitor general on behalf of George W. Bush's government when he was in that position. So there have been really good advocates in this role.
The Bulwark Podcast
Melissa Murray and John Avlon: The Dark Legal Clouds Ahead
This brief was not the best example of advocacy, certainly not written advocacy.
The Bulwark Podcast
Melissa Murray and John Avlon: The Dark Legal Clouds Ahead
Maybe. I mean, like, this is not a court that's super teched up. So not clear if they are on truth social or any platform for that matter. But...
The Bulwark Podcast
Melissa Murray and John Avlon: The Dark Legal Clouds Ahead
No, Alito, Gorsuch, Thomas are definitely red pilling on Newsmax and Fox. Like, they have a very steady diet that is fueled by that kind of media. So, yes, they would be receptive.
The Bulwark Podcast
Melissa Murray and John Avlon: The Dark Legal Clouds Ahead
Oh, wow. Well, can I say something first about the five to four? Let me stall for a minute while I think about this.
The Bulwark Podcast
Melissa Murray and John Avlon: The Dark Legal Clouds Ahead
She really did everything but call Adam Schiff shifty Schiff in that moment. Yeah. Okay. So one thing I'll say about this, and if your listeners are not following the Supreme Court closely, you should be. Please tune in to Strict Scrutiny.
The Bulwark Podcast
Melissa Murray and John Avlon: The Dark Legal Clouds Ahead
She has graduated from law school. She's been a prosecutor. But attorney general and being the head of the DOJ is not simply being a lawyer or a prosecutor or even the chief prosecutor. It's a managerial position. You are not only managing the lawyers in Maine Justice in both the criminal and civil divisions, you're also managing the lawyers in the 93 U.S.
The Bulwark Podcast
Melissa Murray and John Avlon: The Dark Legal Clouds Ahead
The court is wild right now, and it is a really critical part of the government and facilitates a lot of the Republican agenda, whether it is done in a very visible way or in more sort of vote-y ways. I will just say about this decision, it was handled on the court's shadow docket.
The Bulwark Podcast
Melissa Murray and John Avlon: The Dark Legal Clouds Ahead
The shadow docket is essentially the place where the court handles emergency petitions, often in the context of the death penalty, but not always. And this case came up on the shadow docket.
The Bulwark Podcast
Melissa Murray and John Avlon: The Dark Legal Clouds Ahead
Right. So you've heard of the shadow docket. Generally on the shadow docket, the critique about handling cases on the shadow docket is that they're typically not argued in full before the Supreme Court like a regular case would be. And when the justices make their decisions, they're not obliged to issue a full opinion, nor are the justices obliged.
The Bulwark Podcast
Melissa Murray and John Avlon: The Dark Legal Clouds Ahead
necessarily signing their names to the position that they took. So you don't actually, you'll know the number lineup, but you don't know which justices were in the majority or in the dissent or whatever. What was so interesting about this particular case was a 5-4 decision.
The Bulwark Podcast
Melissa Murray and John Avlon: The Dark Legal Clouds Ahead
And that's all we might have known if the four conservative justices had not taken that moment to publicly identify themselves. That was really unusual and it was really purposeful. Because it shows like they are signaling like we would have reviewed this case. We would have taken this up for Donald Trump.
The Bulwark Podcast
Melissa Murray and John Avlon: The Dark Legal Clouds Ahead
And that's a signal maybe to the United States, but more likely to Donald Trump that we're watching out here. And I think that was really intended to send a message like we would have taken this case. It's these three liberals and these two wobbles. who fouled this up for you, sir. And with that in mind, who's going to step into the breach and defend the Republic here?
The Bulwark Podcast
Melissa Murray and John Avlon: The Dark Legal Clouds Ahead
Certainly not the four justices who would have taken up Donald Trump's challenge to the decision to allow his New York sentencing to go forward. And those were The eldest justice, or the longest-serving justice on the court, Clarence Thomas. Justice Alito, perhaps the most valuable justice on the court. Justice Gorsuch, perhaps the most confident justice on the court.
The Bulwark Podcast
Melissa Murray and John Avlon: The Dark Legal Clouds Ahead
And then Justice Kavanaugh, the justice who wants to be liked the most. And the other five justices were the three liberals— Justice Sonia Sotomayor, Justice Elena Kagan, and Justice Katonji Brown-Jackson, joined by the Chief Justice John Roberts and Justice Amy Coney Barrett.
The Bulwark Podcast
Melissa Murray and John Avlon: The Dark Legal Clouds Ahead
The Chief and Justice Barrett are typically among the six conservatives in many of the cases that count, including the immunity decision from last July. I think
The Bulwark Podcast
Melissa Murray and John Avlon: The Dark Legal Clouds Ahead
Before July, I would have said John Roberts is the justice who would be most likely to stand in the breach and defend the Republic because Chief Justice Roberts, I think, during his tenure as Chief Justice, has been more publicly respected. conscious and concerned about the court's institutional standing.
The Bulwark Podcast
Melissa Murray and John Avlon: The Dark Legal Clouds Ahead
However, I will also note that John Roberts has also written the decisions that have done more to erode democracy and democratic institutions in this country. He wrote the majority opinion in Ruscio versus common cause, which essentially blessed partisan gerrymandering and said that there's no role for federal courts to play in policing partisan gerrymandering.
The Bulwark Podcast
Melissa Murray and John Avlon: The Dark Legal Clouds Ahead
And obviously he wrote the majority decision in the immunity case that effectively allowed Donald Trump a get out of jail free card and also a license to crime as president and any future president who feels like emulating that model. So I think before July, I might've said John Roberts. Now I think it's basically a toss up. Justice Barrett, I think, occasionally shows flashes of independence.
The Bulwark Podcast
Melissa Murray and John Avlon: The Dark Legal Clouds Ahead
I don't know if that's a sustained thing. I mean, I think she is a conservative. She's a former law professor. And maybe that means she's not just principled as a conservative, but like sort of kind of philosophical about her conservative priors and principles. She's not, maybe she's not purely ideological. I don't know.
The Bulwark Podcast
Melissa Murray and John Avlon: The Dark Legal Clouds Ahead
Attorney's Offices across the United States. You are managing lawyers and other employees across a number of federal agencies that fall in the remit of the DOJ, like the FBI, like the DEA, like the U.S. Marshal Service. And so it's a really complex and... unwieldy organization. And so it's not simply that you're a lawyer, you actually have to be pretty experienced as a manager.
The Bulwark Podcast
Melissa Murray and John Avlon: The Dark Legal Clouds Ahead
I mean, I think it's a little early to make broad judgments like that about her as a justice. So I'm watching, but I think in this moment, it's kind of a toss up between her and the chief justice as who will stand in the breach. I don't think it's the other four at all.
The Bulwark Podcast
Melissa Murray and John Avlon: The Dark Legal Clouds Ahead
Only if the chief justice is in the mix too.
The Bulwark Podcast
Melissa Murray and John Avlon: The Dark Legal Clouds Ahead
If the chief justice is in the mix. Yeah.
The Bulwark Podcast
Melissa Murray and John Avlon: The Dark Legal Clouds Ahead
I think he'll go with that.
The Bulwark Podcast
Melissa Murray and John Avlon: The Dark Legal Clouds Ahead
I mean, he has on occasion, I think. But not always. I mean, think about the Dobbs case. This was the case that overruled Roe versus Wade. The chief justice refused to join the five conservative justices in forming a majority to overrule Roe versus Wade. Justice Kavanaugh was in that majority and then wrote like an insane, well, not insane, but like a really facile kind of concurrence. Strident.
The Bulwark Podcast
Melissa Murray and John Avlon: The Dark Legal Clouds Ahead
Arguing that like, you know, the constitution is neutral on the question of abortion. This is just going to the states and obviously it's just going to stay at the states. Obviously it's not going to stay at the state level because if you are someone who thinks abortion is murder, you can't be okay with California allowing it and Missouri not allowing it.
The Bulwark Podcast
Melissa Murray and John Avlon: The Dark Legal Clouds Ahead
Like if that's where you are ideologically and philosophically, you have to have a nationwide solution to this. And so I just thought Justice Kavanaugh, Yes, he wants to be liked. By whom? I think that's a toss-up. And there are moments where he's with the conservatives and he's not as independent as some of his other colleagues might be.
The Bulwark Podcast
Melissa Murray and John Avlon: The Dark Legal Clouds Ahead
So, at this taping, I think we're still waiting to hear what the courts in North Carolina will say about this. But it seems like the only thing Alison Riggs did wrong was win an election. And, you know, her Republican challenger, Jefferson Griffin, which is literally straight out of Tennessee Williams as a character name. It's a great name. I say, I say, I say. Great name.
The Bulwark Podcast
Melissa Murray and John Avlon: The Dark Legal Clouds Ahead
it's in the vein for sure. You know, he took that personally and it's, she's up by 734 votes and he is asking to throw out the votes of 60,000 North Carolinians, including members of the military who he says failed to file their votes properly because they didn't show ID, which according to federal law, you don't have to do. So this is truly shocking.
The Bulwark Podcast
Melissa Murray and John Avlon: The Dark Legal Clouds Ahead
And I think that might actually have come up if this was a more normal confirmation process, but it isn't and it's not going to be. And so I think Pam Bondi is our next attorney general and that raises some questions and we should talk about those.
The Bulwark Podcast
Melissa Murray and John Avlon: The Dark Legal Clouds Ahead
anti-democratic behavior, you know, silencing a group of individuals, throwing out their votes. And one that makes clear, I think, the effort to steal this election makes clear how important state courts are and are going to be going forward. You know, the North Carolina High Court changed ideological composition in the last election.
The Bulwark Podcast
Melissa Murray and John Avlon: The Dark Legal Clouds Ahead
It had been under Democratic control, like a majority of Democrats. It then shifted to Republicans. As soon as it shifted to Republican control, it authored a decision that essentially let the state do what it liked relative to partisan gerrymandering, again, to continue consolidating
The Bulwark Podcast
Melissa Murray and John Avlon: The Dark Legal Clouds Ahead
republican control in that state and they know that if this seat is occupied by a democrat and here the democrat would be the winner allison riggs it's going to be harder for the state high court to continue to ratify republican policy preferences in the state in state court challenges and so the court's really important um not just the supreme court but the supreme court's at the state level and that's why this election is one that they're trying to take away from the people
The Bulwark Podcast
Melissa Murray and John Avlon: The Dark Legal Clouds Ahead
It's not just Mark Robinson. There's actually been a really active Democratic machine that's been developed and cultivated in North Carolina. They've done a lot to turn out the vote in major urban areas like Asheville and Charlotte, and they deserve a lot of the credits.
The Bulwark Podcast
Melissa Murray and John Avlon: The Dark Legal Clouds Ahead
Yeah. I mean, that's usually the tell. Like, that's the tell.
The Bulwark Podcast
Melissa Murray and John Avlon: The Dark Legal Clouds Ahead
So I think the race and gender question, Aaron Haynes at the 19th has probably said the most and the most interesting things about this. So I would refer to her takes on this to you. They, I think they're really spot on. I think you mentioned, You can't separate race and gender from what happened here. Like Kamala Harris was running as a black woman.
The Bulwark Podcast
Melissa Murray and John Avlon: The Dark Legal Clouds Ahead
She tried very hard, I think, to downplay the fact that she was a black woman. But it was all there, like right on her face, as it were. And I think there are some people in the country who are, A, not ready for a woman to lead them and definitely not ready. for a Black woman to lead. And, you know, there may be other factors, but, you know, many things can be true at once.
The Bulwark Podcast
Melissa Murray and John Avlon: The Dark Legal Clouds Ahead
And I think it certainly was at issue here.
The Bulwark Podcast
Melissa Murray and John Avlon: The Dark Legal Clouds Ahead
We are not unburdened by what has been. We are definitely burdened.
The Bulwark Podcast
Melissa Murray and John Avlon: The Dark Legal Clouds Ahead
Kicked Bayer's ass. Kicked a lot of people's asses.
The Bulwark Podcast
Melissa Murray and John Avlon: The Dark Legal Clouds Ahead
I heard some men, you know, talking about this, like, you know, in my own family milieu, like no one I'm married to, but like relatives were just like, you know, can she stand up to Putin? And I'm like, Yeah, like, I could stand up to Putin. I really think I could. Like, I think she's there. Like, you don't know enough Black woman if you are having this conversation. Like, Black women are fierce.
The Bulwark Podcast
Melissa Murray and John Avlon: The Dark Legal Clouds Ahead
And I think she could have done that. But I think the real issue in this election, you know, and the economy sort of relates to this, but it's not the central thing here. I think... Part of what spurred some voters to Trump is not some sense that this is my guy. I'm deeply committed to what he's selling. I don't think his support is deep in that way.
The Bulwark Podcast
Melissa Murray and John Avlon: The Dark Legal Clouds Ahead
And, you know, I know a lot of people talked about the growing redness of certain core Democratic areas like New York, like parts of California, things like that. I don't think that's about an interest in conservatism or in Donald Trump particularly. I think it's about a disinterest in disorder and the view that blue state governance or blue city governance leads to disorder.
The Bulwark Podcast
Melissa Murray and John Avlon: The Dark Legal Clouds Ahead
So I live in New York City. I ride the subway. The thing about New York is that It is incredibly democratic, not big D democratic, but small D democratic in that everyone has to take the subway. Unless you literally want to be in traffic for three hours, you are taking the subway, whether you can afford other modes of transportation or not. And
The Bulwark Podcast
Melissa Murray and John Avlon: The Dark Legal Clouds Ahead
I know there's been a lot in the New York Post and other outlets about how unsafe the subway is. I think there have been incidents of real unsafety. But I think for the most part, it's not that the subway is unsafe. Millions of people ride it every day safely. But it is the case that the subway is unpleasant.
The Bulwark Podcast
Melissa Murray and John Avlon: The Dark Legal Clouds Ahead
I was just riding the train and we were between a very long set of express stops and someone riding on the train with me defecated. And like literally on the train and we all were just like, Oh my God. Like, and that, not that kind of thing happens, but like, it's the case that you can get on the subway at any time. And someone's having a mental health crisis, something's happening.
The Bulwark Podcast
Melissa Murray and John Avlon: The Dark Legal Clouds Ahead
It feels disordered and you go to CVS and you got to reserve like three hours to do your shopping because every single item has to be liberated from behind the plexiglass locked wall. And, um, I don't want to shop on Amazon Prime. I'd prefer to do something else that's more economically sustainable, doesn't make Jeff Bezos my personal savior, and is better for the environment.
The Bulwark Podcast
Melissa Murray and John Avlon: The Dark Legal Clouds Ahead
But I don't have three hours to liberate the shampoo every single time. And it feels disordered to have that. And so I think one of the things that people want here is some assurance that blue state or blue city governance works and works well. And that's a reason to put it at the top of the topic and make it national governance.
The Bulwark Podcast
Melissa Murray and John Avlon: The Dark Legal Clouds Ahead
I think it's why Jared Polis has been so successful in Colorado, because he's making shit work. Like, they've lowered prices. They've done things on – I mean, if you look at the polls in the election, places like Missouri, which we think of as like ruby red states – They voted for ballot initiatives that allowed for a rise in the minimum wage, that allowed for paid family leave.
The Bulwark Podcast
Melissa Murray and John Avlon: The Dark Legal Clouds Ahead
These are core redistribution policies, core democratic policies, and ruby red states are going for them. People... want things that make their lives better. Make my life better, free my shampoo from CVS, make the subway more pleasant to ride, all of those things. And I think we're seeing a species of this right now with what's going on in California and the backlash against Karen Bass.
The Bulwark Podcast
Melissa Murray and John Avlon: The Dark Legal Clouds Ahead
If you're making things better in California, why are you in Ghana? And maybe it's not fair. And again, fires are an act of God. I lived in California for many, many years, but I think some of this is deeply unfair with the misinformation that's being spread about her response to this, but that seems to be the core. Show me that democratic governance is effective.
The Bulwark Podcast
Melissa Murray and John Avlon: The Dark Legal Clouds Ahead
As you know, the Supreme Court in Trump versus United States held the president has absolute immunity to commit crimes in certain core areas of the president's responsibility. One of those core areas is the Justice Department. So in a breathtakingly dangerous and irresponsible decision,
The Bulwark Podcast
Melissa Murray and John Avlon: The Dark Legal Clouds Ahead
And I think if Gavin with the good hair wants to be the president of the United States in 2028, he's going to have to clean up San Francisco. He's going to have to clean up Oakland. He's going to have to clean up Los Angeles and show that blue state governance is good and should be for the whole country. That's my take.
The Bulwark Podcast
Melissa Murray and John Avlon: The Dark Legal Clouds Ahead
Like, if Medellin can make it work. They're great.
The Bulwark Podcast
Melissa Murray and John Avlon: The Dark Legal Clouds Ahead
I think that's part of it. Like people in these cities are like, my taxes are, I mean, I lived in Oakland for years. Oakland has extraordinarily high taxes. And you know, if your house gets broken into, the police aren't coming. Like we actually have private policing in neighborhoods in Oakland because of that. Well, Oakland just kicked out its mayor. It's all part of the same ethos.
The Bulwark Podcast
Melissa Murray and John Avlon: The Dark Legal Clouds Ahead
Show me that it works. It's expensive, but if it works, I'm fine.
The Bulwark Podcast
Melissa Murray and John Avlon: The Dark Legal Clouds Ahead
Strict Scrutiny, it's like... Vibey nerdy. Knowing about the Supreme Court is sexy right now.
The Bulwark Podcast
Melissa Murray and John Avlon: The Dark Legal Clouds Ahead
How about that? People are going to love it.
The Bulwark Podcast
Melissa Murray and John Avlon: The Dark Legal Clouds Ahead
Okay, maybe not sexy.
The Bulwark Podcast
Melissa Murray and John Avlon: The Dark Legal Clouds Ahead
Justice Roberts and the majority held the president could commit crimes using the Department of Justice and be immune from prosecution. Justice Sotomayor correctly said this new immunity lies about like a loaded weapon.
The Bulwark Podcast
Melissa Murray and John Avlon: The Dark Legal Clouds Ahead
So the fear and the concern we have is that the incoming president will use that loaded weapon, that immunity to commit crimes through the Department of Justice and for that reason, It is all the more important that we have an attorney general who has the independence, the strength, the intestinal fortitude to say no to the president when it is necessary.
The Bulwark Podcast
Melissa Murray and John Avlon: The Dark Legal Clouds Ahead
So my first set of questions has to do whether you have the independence to say no when you must say no.
The Bulwark Podcast
Melissa Murray and John Avlon: The Dark Legal Clouds Ahead
I actually thought her responses would have been great if she had been nominated to the Supreme Court because she talked like, I refuse to answer hypotheticals. I don't want to play in these gray areas that might come up in the future. Those are standard responses in a Supreme Court confirmation. A little surprising to hear it in this context where it's not necessarily hypothetical.
The Bulwark Podcast
Melissa Murray and John Avlon: The Dark Legal Clouds Ahead
It is the question. The DOJ is part of the executive branch, but it's also unusual because it stands apart from the executive. It's not beholden to the president, or at least it's not supposed to be. Its client is the United States, not the president of the United States. And that was basically the thrust of this question. I think there was also an undercurrent here about whether or not
The Bulwark Podcast
Melissa Murray and John Avlon: The Dark Legal Clouds Ahead
Pam Bondi could not only stand up to Donald Trump, but also stand up to the other individuals appointed in the DOJ who are Trump loyalists. And, you know, someone whose name came up, even though this was not his confirmation hearing, was Kash Patel, and his name came up repeatedly.
The Bulwark Podcast
Melissa Murray and John Avlon: The Dark Legal Clouds Ahead
Would she follow Kash Patel's enemies list and double down on prosecutions against individuals who are quote unquote enemies of Donald Trump? And, you know, she was really kind of evasive about some of those questions on you. She said she was looking forward to hearing more about QAnon, like she'd never heard of that.
The Bulwark Podcast
Melissa Murray and John Avlon: The Dark Legal Clouds Ahead
A lot of things she actually hadn't heard of, which, you know, might have been surprising.
The Bulwark Podcast
Melissa Murray and John Avlon: The Dark Legal Clouds Ahead
That actually beggars belief because, you know, Pam Bondi was out in front after the 2020 election talking about how votes had been stolen and, you know, or or insinuating that votes had been stolen and. And she was among many of those individuals who were leading the charge that then fueled the election denialism that plagued the 2020 election going forward.
The Bulwark Podcast
Melissa Murray and John Avlon: The Dark Legal Clouds Ahead
So, I mean, the idea that, like, no, I've never heard of this call, you know, kind of surprising. I was surprised. But, you know, for the most part, she didn't have any missteps because, again, she benefits from not being Matt Gaetz. And as long as she is not Matt Gaetz... this is plausible and she's likely to sail through this confirmation. And I think she knew that.
The Bulwark Podcast
Melissa Murray and John Avlon: The Dark Legal Clouds Ahead
I mean, there were moments during this confirmation hearing where, you know, she injected some levity into it, like made little jokes that were surprising. You know, at one point, a friend of mine texted me and was like, is she flirting with John Kennedy? Like, she was a little flirty. I was like, you can take the girl out of the sorority, but you can't take the sorority out of the girl.
The Bulwark Podcast
Melissa Murray and John Avlon: The Dark Legal Clouds Ahead
I mean, she was comfortable in part because I think she knows how this ends.
The Bulwark Podcast
Melissa Murray and John Avlon: The Dark Legal Clouds Ahead
No, I don't think that was the case. Again, you have to think about what are these confirmation hearings for? Obviously, there is some degree of kabuki theater to this. This is performance. And especially in the case of a nominee like this one, who is virtually guaranteed to be confirmed... what is the other purpose? And I think this is where the Democratic senators kind of fell down a little.
The Bulwark Podcast
Melissa Murray and John Avlon: The Dark Legal Clouds Ahead
Part of this is alerting the public, like, there is a real threat here, if you see one, and communicating what that threat is. And so there were questions that I wish had been asked. There were follow-ups that I wish the Democrats had asked instead of just, you know, sort of playing on her turf. Like, you know, she was evasive on a lot of different questions. You know, she didn't know things.
The Bulwark Podcast
Melissa Murray and John Avlon: The Dark Legal Clouds Ahead
She was unfamiliar with certain things. And, even though we assume she would be familiar with them, but keep pushing. So I think it was Alex Padilla of California who asked her about her stance on Obergefell versus Hodges, which of course is the 2015 Supreme Court case that legalized same-sex marriage around the country.
The Bulwark Podcast
Melissa Murray and John Avlon: The Dark Legal Clouds Ahead
And he asked her about whether or not she would abide by that decision and whether she as attorney general would facilitate any moves that would endanger the integrity of marriage's that were constituted between two individuals of the same sex. And she kept saying, I will follow the law. The follow-up question that I wish Senator Padilla had asked is, what if the president says the law is X?
The Bulwark Podcast
Melissa Murray and John Avlon: The Dark Legal Clouds Ahead
What if the president says that there is an executive order that says we're not recognizing these marriages for purposes of this federal law, or benefits, or X, Y, or Z? If that's the law, is that what you're following? Harder questions, more incisive questions, A similar kind of thing came up with regard to abortion. She said repeatedly that she is pro-life, but she would follow the law.
The Bulwark Podcast
Melissa Murray and John Avlon: The Dark Legal Clouds Ahead
Long time listener, first time caller. Thank you. Thank you for having me.
The Bulwark Podcast
Melissa Murray and John Avlon: The Dark Legal Clouds Ahead
What if the law is now the Comstock Act, the 1873 law passed at a time when women didn't even have the right to vote that Republicans have said very explicitly in Project 2025?
The Bulwark Podcast
Melissa Murray and John Avlon: The Dark Legal Clouds Ahead
that they are going to use and revive to essentially make it illegal for individuals to send any kind of implement that might be used in an abortion, whether that's medication abortion pills or a speculum that could be used in a procedural abortion. You can't send those through the mail anymore. I mean, it's basically going to be deployed online.
The Bulwark Podcast
Melissa Murray and John Avlon: The Dark Legal Clouds Ahead
in the manner of a nationwide ban, to effectively have a nationwide ban, if that's the law, are you following that? Are you enforcing that? And nobody asked that question and it made me absolutely crazy.
The Bulwark Podcast
Melissa Murray and John Avlon: The Dark Legal Clouds Ahead
I think just generally her evasiveness on questions about her loyalty to the man who has nominated her raises questions about who is the client here, right? DOJ's client is and should be the United States, not the president of the United States. And I think the fact that she would not be clear about that
The Bulwark Podcast
Melissa Murray and John Avlon: The Dark Legal Clouds Ahead
makes it really difficult to feel confident that going forward, this is going to be business as usual. It's not going to be business as usual. Donald Trump has already nominated Todd Blanche to be the Deputy Attorney General. John Sauer has been nominated to be the Solicitor General. We can talk more about those appointments.
The Bulwark Podcast
Melissa Murray and John Avlon: The Dark Legal Clouds Ahead
More on that in a minute. But The fact that his personal lawyers who represented him in the immunity case before the Supreme Court, that was John Sauer, or who represented him in the New York hush money case, that was Todd Blanche, are now in the DOJ as really huge players, the deputy AG, the solicitor general.
The Bulwark Podcast
Melissa Murray and John Avlon: The Dark Legal Clouds Ahead
Well, so I watched the confirmation hearing yesterday. And I think from the start, it was pretty evident that unless Pam Bondi did something extreme, like literally sort of doing cartwheels on the table, she's going to be the next attorney general. And so I think you have to consider her nomination in the context of everything that came before it and that is happening alongside it.
The Bulwark Podcast
Melissa Murray and John Avlon: The Dark Legal Clouds Ahead
That suggests that maybe DOJ is being transformed into the president's private law firm, or worse, the president's personal prosecution arm. And I think that should make a lot of people really uncomfortable, even afraid.
The Bulwark Podcast
Melissa Murray and John Avlon: The Dark Legal Clouds Ahead
I wasn't familiar. I wasn't familiar with the subpoena.
The Bulwark Podcast
Melissa Murray and John Avlon: The Dark Legal Clouds Ahead
I didn't know he was doing that.
The Bulwark Podcast
Melissa Murray and John Avlon: The Dark Legal Clouds Ahead
Let me just first say, John Sauer isn't an unqualified individual. I mean, he is, from what I understand, he's eminently qualified, all the credentials, all the things. But in his role as a lawyer for Donald Trump, he's actually been asked and has done things that I think would make other lawyers with his credentials pause. Like, so...
The Bulwark Podcast
Melissa Murray and John Avlon: The Dark Legal Clouds Ahead
One of the things we talked about on the Strict Scrutiny podcast from last week is the brief that John Sauer filed on behalf of Donald Trump in the recently argued TikTok case. So this is the case about whether a law that would require TikTok to either divest its Chinese ownership or go dark in the United States is within Congress's authority to enact. And
The Bulwark Podcast
Melissa Murray and John Avlon: The Dark Legal Clouds Ahead
This was a case between the federal government and TikTok, but Donald Trump as president-elect decided to file an amicus brief, a friend of the court brief, and John Sauer wrote this brief on his behalf and filed it and put his bar number on it. And it's wild.
The Bulwark Podcast
Melissa Murray and John Avlon: The Dark Legal Clouds Ahead
It is an absolutely wild, insane... If a student gave this to me as a first-year legal writing exercise, I would pull the student aside and ask them whether or not this was the career for them because... The brief basically says what the court should do is pause this law, pause the effective date of this law to allow Donald Trump to step in because he is a quote unquote consummate dealmaker.
The Bulwark Podcast
Melissa Murray and John Avlon: The Dark Legal Clouds Ahead
And he should be allowed to intervene here and negotiate with China to figure out a resolution to this. So that is just wild.
The Bulwark Podcast
Melissa Murray and John Avlon: The Dark Legal Clouds Ahead
This president-elect, instead of all of the usual procedures for how we do policy and how we enact laws and how the court addresses laws that may or may not be invalid because they are constitutionally infirm, let's put all that to the side for a minute and just let America's number one dealmaker step in and handle this. Only he can fix it.