Matty Mo

Any content that's going viral related to a creator inventing a new style of making work and sharing it on TikTok is a product that could be sold on a monthly basis as a box company or in a marketplace. And this is a product you buy that allows you to create content around your purchase. And in doing so, you're inadvertently marketing the thing you bought.

Any content that's going viral related to a creator inventing a new style of making work and sharing it on TikTok is a product that could be sold on a monthly basis as a box company or in a marketplace. And this is a product you buy that allows you to create content around your purchase. And in doing so, you're inadvertently marketing the thing you bought.

Yeah. If I was in a tier one city, I'd be doing that again, but, uh, I'm in a, not a tier one city anymore.

Yeah. If I was in a tier one city, I'd be doing that again, but, uh, I'm in a, not a tier one city anymore.

Exactly. Um, we'll go, we'll go with this art rentals business and we're going to do three art businesses. And then one that's kind of like, um, close to my heart, given the thing I'm doing out in Tucumcari, New Mexico. Um, so art rentals, there's this art dealer called Stefan Simkowitz, um,

Exactly. Um, we'll go, we'll go with this art rentals business and we're going to do three art businesses. And then one that's kind of like, um, close to my heart, given the thing I'm doing out in Tucumcari, New Mexico. Um, so art rentals, there's this art dealer called Stefan Simkowitz, um,

Yeah. And done is a relative word. I mean, I operate a large art studio and work with a whole bunch of different people. So I've facilitated or helped out with some crazy stuff. One that might be of note is the changing of the Hollywood sign to say Hollyweed. That was done by an artist in my studio when California legalized cannabis a few years back.

Yeah. And done is a relative word. I mean, I operate a large art studio and work with a whole bunch of different people. So I've facilitated or helped out with some crazy stuff. One that might be of note is the changing of the Hollywood sign to say Hollyweed. That was done by an artist in my studio when California legalized cannabis a few years back.

who was referred to by the New York Times as the patron Satan for his art collecting practices and the way he views the art world. I think he's a genius. And he does a couple things. One is he goes to artists and says, hey, I'll pay for all of your production and your studio, and I'll pay you a living wage, but all the work you create, I get to own and sell.

who was referred to by the New York Times as the patron Satan for his art collecting practices and the way he views the art world. I think he's a genius. And he does a couple things. One is he goes to artists and says, hey, I'll pay for all of your production and your studio, and I'll pay you a living wage, but all the work you create, I get to own and sell.

And in some cases, you get a rev share on. And what that does is it enables him to amass a massive inventory of art at a relatively low cost per unit. It also allows him to control the supply of a particular artist's ove or production, which can influence prices down the line. And in some cases, if the artist blows up, you've got all this inventory that's super valuable.

And in some cases, you get a rev share on. And what that does is it enables him to amass a massive inventory of art at a relatively low cost per unit. It also allows him to control the supply of a particular artist's ove or production, which can influence prices down the line. And in some cases, if the artist blows up, you've got all this inventory that's super valuable.

And that's happened to him for a couple of times. This other thing that has happened is he's got this massive inventory of art and he was trying to think about what to do with it. And so he started to rent it out to interior decorators and tier one cities. Um, people that kind of like stage homes, like 10, 20, $50 million homes in LA put really good art up.

And that's happened to him for a couple of times. This other thing that has happened is he's got this massive inventory of art and he was trying to think about what to do with it. And so he started to rent it out to interior decorators and tier one cities. Um, people that kind of like stage homes, like 10, 20, $50 million homes in LA put really good art up.

And oftentimes, uh, the house just gets bought with the art in it if it's well-placed. And so he liquidates his inventory. He's getting a rental fee and he's getting a services fee to transport the work from his warehouse and install it. Now that works really good for high-end art in tier one cities.

And oftentimes, uh, the house just gets bought with the art in it if it's well-placed. And so he liquidates his inventory. He's getting a rental fee and he's getting a services fee to transport the work from his warehouse and install it. Now that works really good for high-end art in tier one cities.

But the thinking is if you're in a small town or let's call it a tier two city, not a small town, and you can go network in with the art community, I'm willing to bet there's a lot of inventory just sitting around with nothing to do. Artists make work. They don't know how to sell it yet. Their demand hasn't caught up with their production. They're not at where they want to be just yet.

But the thinking is if you're in a small town or let's call it a tier two city, not a small town, and you can go network in with the art community, I'm willing to bet there's a lot of inventory just sitting around with nothing to do. Artists make work. They don't know how to sell it yet. Their demand hasn't caught up with their production. They're not at where they want to be just yet.

So you say it to them, let me consign this work, which effectively means let me take the art, place it, sell it, and take a percentage of the sale in order to do that work for you. And for many artists, that's awesome because they don't want to be sales agents.

So you say it to them, let me consign this work, which effectively means let me take the art, place it, sell it, and take a percentage of the sale in order to do that work for you. And for many artists, that's awesome because they don't want to be sales agents.

And so if you go and get enough of this work signed up, you photograph it, you inventory it, you build out a database of this work, you go talk to interior decorators, you go talk to commercial developers who are building big buildings, you go talk to hotel operators, And they're willing to lease this work from you.

And so if you go and get enough of this work signed up, you photograph it, you inventory it, you build out a database of this work, you go talk to interior decorators, you go talk to commercial developers who are building big buildings, you go talk to hotel operators, And they're willing to lease this work from you.

And you could charge something like 10% of the sale price with an option to buy it after seven years or 10 years or whatever, or a discount if you buy it after three. You charge a services fee for an installation. So the lease or would likely want to keep the art for a while because they have to pay an installation fee and a de-installation fee.

And you could charge something like 10% of the sale price with an option to buy it after seven years or 10 years or whatever, or a discount if you buy it after three. You charge a services fee for an installation. So the lease or would likely want to keep the art for a while because they have to pay an installation fee and a de-installation fee.

And you effectively create a subscription revenue model out of this remnant art inventory. You give a rev share back to the artists for enabling you to have access to the inventory. And you just manage a massive database of artwork sitting in studios.

And you effectively create a subscription revenue model out of this remnant art inventory. You give a rev share back to the artists for enabling you to have access to the inventory. And you just manage a massive database of artwork sitting in studios.

Precisely. And it largely requires a reframing of what art is. Some people think of art as like... the most important cultural artifacts of a generation. And to be real, many artists are not making the most important cultural artifacts of a generation. They're making pretty things. And what are pretty things? Decorations.

Precisely. And it largely requires a reframing of what art is. Some people think of art as like... the most important cultural artifacts of a generation. And to be real, many artists are not making the most important cultural artifacts of a generation. They're making pretty things. And what are pretty things? Decorations.

and painted a block of houses millennial pink a developer came to me and said that they were having a hard time getting demolition permits and so they said what could we do that would really make a stink so we painted this block of houses millennial pink thousands of people came to take pictures in front of them and the city ultimately um decided that the houses need to come down

and painted a block of houses millennial pink a developer came to me and said that they were having a hard time getting demolition permits and so they said what could we do that would really make a stink so we painted this block of houses millennial pink thousands of people came to take pictures in front of them and the city ultimately um decided that the houses need to come down

So if you're selling decorations and you can realize as an artist, you're the maker and seller of decoration, you probably want to sell through the appropriate channels, your decorations.

So if you're selling decorations and you can realize as an artist, you're the maker and seller of decoration, you probably want to sell through the appropriate channels, your decorations.

I don't quite get how that works. I think it's different than art in that.

I don't quite get how that works. I think it's different than art in that.

very much money you just have to like do the deal and find the channel yeah so i don't think it's sold in clothing stores per se but it's like a a pop-up boutique in a coffee shop or at a bowling alley or something like that, where you have a secondhand retail vintage store that pops up in different locations. It's effectively flea market stuff.

very much money you just have to like do the deal and find the channel yeah so i don't think it's sold in clothing stores per se but it's like a a pop-up boutique in a coffee shop or at a bowling alley or something like that, where you have a secondhand retail vintage store that pops up in different locations. It's effectively flea market stuff.

I'll give you another example of one that just came to mind. Coffee cups should have some kind of thing on them that markets something. And when I was in LA, I did a lot of the murals and brand placements for Alfred Coffee through my mural agency. They were like a network of walls that we sold through.

I'll give you another example of one that just came to mind. Coffee cups should have some kind of thing on them that markets something. And when I was in LA, I did a lot of the murals and brand placements for Alfred Coffee through my mural agency. They were like a network of walls that we sold through.

And once a wall got painted, then the advertiser would often want to buy the sleeves for all the coffee cups as well. So it's like, it's taking these services and bringing them to a retail store and adding revenue to their current infrastructure, which is the hard startup cost of getting a brick and mortar going.

And once a wall got painted, then the advertiser would often want to buy the sleeves for all the coffee cups as well. So it's like, it's taking these services and bringing them to a retail store and adding revenue to their current infrastructure, which is the hard startup cost of getting a brick and mortar going.

Agreed. So good. Go do it. Go and do it. How many people actually go do the startups and then email you and be like, I did it. I did one of these and it worked.

Agreed. So good. Go do it. Go and do it. How many people actually go do the startups and then email you and be like, I did it. I did one of these and it worked.

interesting urban development project. I taught a famous dog how to paint a portrait of itself. And that portrait and video did better than most artists ever do in their entire lives.

interesting urban development project. I taught a famous dog how to paint a portrait of itself. And that portrait and video did better than most artists ever do in their entire lives.

I love that. What a service. Thanks for doing that, Greg.

I love that. What a service. Thanks for doing that, Greg.

It's great. I love this concept. um should we jump into the next one yeah let's do it okay so this one i don't know that it's a gigantic business but it could be and here's why it could go viral um and so this one is this idea that every day i open tiktok and i love tiktok by the way it's so fun um

It's great. I love this concept. um should we jump into the next one yeah let's do it okay so this one i don't know that it's a gigantic business but it could be and here's why it could go viral um and so this one is this idea that every day i open tiktok and i love tiktok by the way it's so fun um

Every day I open TikTok and I see some kind of like new creative method being used by some artists that invented that method. And there's a certain number of skilled people that can replicate that method. But because they're skilled, they're probably going to be doing their own thing.

Every day I open TikTok and I see some kind of like new creative method being used by some artists that invented that method. And there's a certain number of skilled people that can replicate that method. But because they're skilled, they're probably going to be doing their own thing.

I dragged a duffel bag full of a million dollars in cash, a transparent duffel bag full of a million dollars of cash around an art fair, built the fuselage of a private jet that allowed people to take selfies inside of it, got credit for all those monoliths that started popping up.

I dragged a duffel bag full of a million dollars in cash, a transparent duffel bag full of a million dollars of cash around an art fair, built the fuselage of a private jet that allowed people to take selfies inside of it, got credit for all those monoliths that started popping up.

But then there's this whole audience of people clicking like and commenting on these like new viral methods that would probably buy like an art kit. And I'll give you an example. Like there's this guy that does like spin paintings and you just dump paint on a canvas that's spinning. You could easily sell that motor and a few components to enable anyone to make a spin painting.

But then there's this whole audience of people clicking like and commenting on these like new viral methods that would probably buy like an art kit. And I'll give you an example. Like there's this guy that does like spin paintings and you just dump paint on a canvas that's spinning. You could easily sell that motor and a few components to enable anyone to make a spin painting.

Or there's this other artist that has these spray caps that are unique where he like pipes out a whole bunch of different caps. And as you spray, it creates this really cool texture. that could easily be a product that you sell to everyone that has watched this artist's videos and thought of it as really cool.

Or there's this other artist that has these spray caps that are unique where he like pipes out a whole bunch of different caps. And as you spray, it creates this really cool texture. that could easily be a product that you sell to everyone that has watched this artist's videos and thought of it as really cool.

Now you could do this without permission and just go out and do it because there's no real copyright on the process for the most part. Or you could go partner with these artists and provide them with a new thing to sell to their growing audience of customers.

Now you could do this without permission and just go out and do it because there's no real copyright on the process for the most part. Or you could go partner with these artists and provide them with a new thing to sell to their growing audience of customers.

So viral art kits, viral pottery kits, viral spray painting kits, like any content that's going viral related to a creator inventing a new style of making work and sharing it on TikTok is a product that could be sold on a monthly basis as a box company or in a marketplace. Now there's manufacturing challenges with this one. There's... There's there's a lot more.

So viral art kits, viral pottery kits, viral spray painting kits, like any content that's going viral related to a creator inventing a new style of making work and sharing it on TikTok is a product that could be sold on a monthly basis as a box company or in a marketplace. Now there's manufacturing challenges with this one. There's... There's there's a lot more.

It's probably a harder startup than the first two that we've mentioned because you're actually selling a product rather than a service or a service based product. But I wanted to kick that one out there and see what your response to that was, Greg.

It's probably a harder startup than the first two that we've mentioned because you're actually selling a product rather than a service or a service based product. But I wanted to kick that one out there and see what your response to that was, Greg.

Mm hmm.

Mm hmm.

And most recently have decided I want to build an art town and move to the middle of New Mexico and have been chipping away at that.

And most recently have decided I want to build an art town and move to the middle of New Mexico and have been chipping away at that.

Yeah, and I think the other macro trends that this touches on is it's expensive to live in the world. And people are looking for things to do at home that take time, that feel rewarding and build confidence. People are also a second macro trend as people are more and more becoming content creators. And this is a product you buy that allows you to create content around your purchase.

Yeah, and I think the other macro trends that this touches on is it's expensive to live in the world. And people are looking for things to do at home that take time, that feel rewarding and build confidence. People are also a second macro trend as people are more and more becoming content creators. And this is a product you buy that allows you to create content around your purchase.

And in doing so, you're an inadvertently or kind of kind of. marketing the thing you bought. So it's a product that has a viral loop built into it, which I quite like.

And in doing so, you're an inadvertently or kind of kind of. marketing the thing you bought. So it's a product that has a viral loop built into it, which I quite like.

I'm not going to do it. Someone else should do it. Someone's going to do all these ideas. Can't wait. Okay, the last one, which I think is kind of cool. So since we last saw each other, which has been years, I moved to this small town. I built an art residency on this ranch.

I'm not going to do it. Someone else should do it. Someone's going to do all these ideas. Can't wait. Okay, the last one, which I think is kind of cool. So since we last saw each other, which has been years, I moved to this small town. I built an art residency on this ranch.

I've been kind of like getting involved in the local politics of this town, joining various organizations related to economic development in this town, trying to figure out Is there a way to use creatives and culture to revitalize economies of small towns, given that there's this almost death spiral happening in big cities? They're becoming unlivable. They're becoming expensive.

I've been kind of like getting involved in the local politics of this town, joining various organizations related to economic development in this town, trying to figure out Is there a way to use creatives and culture to revitalize economies of small towns, given that there's this almost death spiral happening in big cities? They're becoming unlivable. They're becoming expensive.

People are now able to work remotely in some cases. And so is there this idea that you can take old infrastructure in small towns and create like little utopias? especially given that the majority of the population in most of these small towns are retired age and on their way to the end of their life.

People are now able to work remotely in some cases. And so is there this idea that you can take old infrastructure in small towns and create like little utopias? especially given that the majority of the population in most of these small towns are retired age and on their way to the end of their life.

All of this infrastructure is going to become available for sale largely because the kids of these retirees don't want to move back to these small towns because quality of life isn't there. So I'm trying to figure out if I can like kickstart a small town. And my thesis started with an art residency and that was cool.

All of this infrastructure is going to become available for sale largely because the kids of these retirees don't want to move back to these small towns because quality of life isn't there. So I'm trying to figure out if I can like kickstart a small town. And my thesis started with an art residency and that was cool.

Well, the reason I hijacked the narrative is I started in advertising technology.

Well, the reason I hijacked the narrative is I started in advertising technology.

But what I really needed is people to be able to come to the small town, spend some time, enjoy nature. have an affordable experience and have something to take a lot of pictures up. So I bought 40 acres. I turned it into a glamping site. I brought in a whole bunch of big, huge selfie friendly sculptures. and created what I'm calling Art City.

But what I really needed is people to be able to come to the small town, spend some time, enjoy nature. have an affordable experience and have something to take a lot of pictures up. So I bought 40 acres. I turned it into a glamping site. I brought in a whole bunch of big, huge selfie friendly sculptures. and created what I'm calling Art City.

And it's this concept that could be a franchise that I take to other KOAs or KOAs and start to acquire KOAs through private equity. It's a business that I could just scale myself and have 10 art cities around the country. It could just be like a really nice cashflow business for myself.

And it's this concept that could be a franchise that I take to other KOAs or KOAs and start to acquire KOAs through private equity. It's a business that I could just scale myself and have 10 art cities around the country. It could just be like a really nice cashflow business for myself.

I think my guiding principle with anything I take action on is that I have to be able to do it faster than anyone else so I can iterate and make it happen quickly. Also, it has to pencil into 25% ROI no matter what, or else it's kind of like a ungrowable business.

I think my guiding principle with anything I take action on is that I have to be able to do it faster than anyone else so I can iterate and make it happen quickly. Also, it has to pencil into 25% ROI no matter what, or else it's kind of like a ungrowable business.

back in like 2008, 9, 10, when Facebook's API was emerging and YouTube and the iPhone were emerging and realized that there were these new centers of attention and there were certain metrics or places that you, metrics you can manipulate or places you needed to be seen in order to capitalize on those attention portals or places for attention.

back in like 2008, 9, 10, when Facebook's API was emerging and YouTube and the iPhone were emerging and realized that there were these new centers of attention and there were certain metrics or places that you, metrics you can manipulate or places you needed to be seen in order to capitalize on those attention portals or places for attention.

Um, so came up with this idea, glamping site, 40 acres sculpture park offered 66, 20,000 people drive by every single day because of our proximity to I-40, which is a major thoroughfare land is affordable. Um, it, it just seems to work. One thing that I had to do in order to stimulate demand for my glamp ground was sign up for hip camp, which is like Airbnb for camping.

Um, so came up with this idea, glamping site, 40 acres sculpture park offered 66, 20,000 people drive by every single day because of our proximity to I-40, which is a major thoroughfare land is affordable. Um, it, it just seems to work. One thing that I had to do in order to stimulate demand for my glamp ground was sign up for hip camp, which is like Airbnb for camping.

And if you go look at the hip camp map, there's quite a lot of cool spots, but they're for the most part, very much clustered around certain geographies. But the thing about campers is they're often on road trips and they're crossing the country and there's areas or pockets of the country that have no hip camp sites available. And why is that?

And if you go look at the hip camp map, there's quite a lot of cool spots, but they're for the most part, very much clustered around certain geographies. But the thing about campers is they're often on road trips and they're crossing the country and there's areas or pockets of the country that have no hip camp sites available. And why is that?

Well, in order to have an appropriate hip camp site, you need to have shower facilities and toilet facilities and perhaps like a fire pit and some infrastructure for these people to camp on, whether they're in a tent or a van. So here's the idea.

Well, in order to have an appropriate hip camp site, you need to have shower facilities and toilet facilities and perhaps like a fire pit and some infrastructure for these people to camp on, whether they're in a tent or a van. So here's the idea.

Go do a little bit of data analysis on hip camp, figure out where major thoroughfares are, where people are leaving big cities, heading to another location, go to that town in between,

Go do a little bit of data analysis on hip camp, figure out where major thoroughfares are, where people are leaving big cities, heading to another location, go to that town in between,

write a letter to a property owner and say hey i'd like to do a joint venture with you where i'm going to invest in bringing in like a composting toilet and an outdoor shower and i'm going to manage your listing on hipcamp and i want a revenue share against the revenue generated and just like folks built these airbnb empires i suspect you could do this with hipcamp and i think the macro trend here is that

write a letter to a property owner and say hey i'd like to do a joint venture with you where i'm going to invest in bringing in like a composting toilet and an outdoor shower and i'm going to manage your listing on hipcamp and i want a revenue share against the revenue generated and just like folks built these airbnb empires i suspect you could do this with hipcamp and i think the macro trend here is that

For many people that are traveling, Airbnbs are too expensive and they want perhaps a more organic, kind of a little bit more in the woodsy feel experience. And there's already a platform that does most of the heavy lifting and finding these customers for you.

For many people that are traveling, Airbnbs are too expensive and they want perhaps a more organic, kind of a little bit more in the woodsy feel experience. And there's already a platform that does most of the heavy lifting and finding these customers for you.

And the other thing that's happening with campers and van lifers is they're mostly content creators. And so this has this other built-in viral loop. One theme in all my stuff is like, how do you make it so that your customers share your story and bring you more business organically?

And the other thing that's happening with campers and van lifers is they're mostly content creators. And so this has this other built-in viral loop. One theme in all my stuff is like, how do you make it so that your customers share your story and bring you more business organically?

And so this particular category of accommodations does satisfy that condition that most of your customers are going to market the thing for you after they've experienced it once.

And so this particular category of accommodations does satisfy that condition that most of your customers are going to market the thing for you after they've experienced it once.

The challenge is like... How do you find the perfect composting, toilet, outdoor shower combo that comes on a semi-truck and you fork off and drop down and it just works? Because most people are not going to want to plug into their septic or their sewer. They're going to want something self-sustaining. This might require some capital to actually get started.

The challenge is like... How do you find the perfect composting, toilet, outdoor shower combo that comes on a semi-truck and you fork off and drop down and it just works? Because most people are not going to want to plug into their septic or their sewer. They're going to want something self-sustaining. This might require some capital to actually get started.

And that's where I really honed my skills that I'm now kind of playing out in art. Most of my art to date has been me starting with a headline, thinking to myself, what headline could I make? And then reverse engineering actually how to do it, which publication to pitch it to, how to create enough digital artifacts to tell the story. I've shied away from that.

And that's where I really honed my skills that I'm now kind of playing out in art. Most of my art to date has been me starting with a headline, thinking to myself, what headline could I make? And then reverse engineering actually how to do it, which publication to pitch it to, how to create enough digital artifacts to tell the story. I've shied away from that.

Those are some of the challenges I see in building out this business.

Those are some of the challenges I see in building out this business.

Well, like a really, like I bought a really nice composting toilet from my site and it was like 14 grand for a two seater. Um, but this is like the top of the line. Um, you could probably do like an outdoor shower and a composting toilet for closer to a grand or two grand or something like that. So let's say you get 40 bucks a night per camper. You've got a 50% fill rate. That's six grand a month.

Well, like a really, like I bought a really nice composting toilet from my site and it was like 14 grand for a two seater. Um, but this is like the top of the line. Um, you could probably do like an outdoor shower and a composting toilet for closer to a grand or two grand or something like that. So let's say you get 40 bucks a night per camper. You've got a 50% fill rate. That's six grand a month.

Um, I think that's six grand a month, 44, no, 600 bucks a month. Um, you could, you could probably break even within the year and then you own the infrastructure and you keep doing that. My math was way off. I'm not that dumb.

Um, I think that's six grand a month, 44, no, 600 bucks a month. Um, you could, you could probably break even within the year and then you own the infrastructure and you keep doing that. My math was way off. I'm not that dumb.

One theme in all my stuff is like, how do you make it so that your customers share your story and bring you more business organically?

One theme in all my stuff is like, how do you make it so that your customers share your story and bring you more business organically?

Did you just, okay. So when the, when the editor goes in, I'm not that dumb. Um, Exactly. So those are some of the ideas I had. I mean, I'm really into what Cody Sanchez was talking about related to like roll up of services, businesses in small towns and operationalizing them. I'm seeing that as a need here in this town, but I'm not a subject matter expert on that.

Did you just, okay. So when the, when the editor goes in, I'm not that dumb. Um, Exactly. So those are some of the ideas I had. I mean, I'm really into what Cody Sanchez was talking about related to like roll up of services, businesses in small towns and operationalizing them. I'm seeing that as a need here in this town, but I'm not a subject matter expert on that.

And I'll probably end up doing it here in Tucumcari. But yeah, those are the big ideas for today, Greg.

And I'll probably end up doing it here in Tucumcari. But yeah, those are the big ideas for today, Greg.

Visitartcity.com is where you can find day passes to Art City, learn about the artists involved, book overnight stays. And themostfamousartist.com is where you can see all my work. Yeah, and if you're cruising through Tucumcari, DM me on Instagram at themostfamousartist and I'll show you around. And otherwise, my email is maddie at themostfamousartist.com.

Visitartcity.com is where you can find day passes to Art City, learn about the artists involved, book overnight stays. And themostfamousartist.com is where you can see all my work. Yeah, and if you're cruising through Tucumcari, DM me on Instagram at themostfamousartist and I'll show you around. And otherwise, my email is maddie at themostfamousartist.com.

And I'm open to hearing about people starting these businesses and having tremendous success with them.

And I'm open to hearing about people starting these businesses and having tremendous success with them.

Have you heard of Marfa, Texas? Yes. Okay. So Marfa, Texas was this military town and kind of in the middle of nowhere, West Texas. Um, Donald Judd moved there with the help of this rich lawyer guy, bought up a bunch of infrastructure, built a studio, brought his friends out there and Marfa's real estate 10 X in the last decade or so. Um, That's an example of how art can kind of impact an economy.

Have you heard of Marfa, Texas? Yes. Okay. So Marfa, Texas was this military town and kind of in the middle of nowhere, West Texas. Um, Donald Judd moved there with the help of this rich lawyer guy, bought up a bunch of infrastructure, built a studio, brought his friends out there and Marfa's real estate 10 X in the last decade or so. Um, That's an example of how art can kind of impact an economy.

I would like to have a tremendous measurable impact on Tugendkari and prove that like investing in art is a good thing because it drives the economy.

I would like to have a tremendous measurable impact on Tugendkari and prove that like investing in art is a good thing because it drives the economy.

Um, I could see a world wherein I partner with large scale property developers and become like the creative director of their entire portfolio, given the relationships I've got with these large scale sculpture artists and the understanding of installing and selling this stuff.

Um, I could see a world wherein I partner with large scale property developers and become like the creative director of their entire portfolio, given the relationships I've got with these large scale sculpture artists and the understanding of installing and selling this stuff.

Um, ideally a whole bunch of knowledge workers and artists and creatives moved to Tucumcari, an entirely new industry is born. And I'm not sure what that looks like. Um,

Um, ideally a whole bunch of knowledge workers and artists and creatives moved to Tucumcari, an entirely new industry is born. And I'm not sure what that looks like. Um,

And I would say like in 2020, when the pandemic hit, I was looking at you and Jack Butcher leading these digital communities and realized that was definitely the future.

And I would say like in 2020, when the pandemic hit, I was looking at you and Jack Butcher leading these digital communities and realized that was definitely the future.

I imagine Art City in its current instantiation will be some kind of franchise business or a roll-up of a whole bunch of different campsites that I turn into Art Cities and then like a acquisition by a publicly traded glamping, glamp site or trailer park operator or something like that. Because what I'm building is the viral version of a campsite or the viral version of a trailer park.

I imagine Art City in its current instantiation will be some kind of franchise business or a roll-up of a whole bunch of different campsites that I turn into Art Cities and then like a acquisition by a publicly traded glamping, glamp site or trailer park operator or something like that. Because what I'm building is the viral version of a campsite or the viral version of a trailer park.

Yeah, it used to be start with the headline because headlines used to be a method through which you could go viral. And then the news media just got all wacky and it was no longer that interesting. And then everyone became a creator. So how do you empower people to create content because they've used your product?

Yeah, it used to be start with the headline because headlines used to be a method through which you could go viral. And then the news media just got all wacky and it was no longer that interesting. And then everyone became a creator. So how do you empower people to create content because they've used your product?

So I would say that you guys were a big inspiration for that and started an art community and then realized there was all these ancillary businesses in addition to being a direct consumer artist or gallery artist that were fascinating, that supported the entire ecosystem and community and that not a lot of entrepreneurs were building.

So I would say that you guys were a big inspiration for that and started an art community and then realized there was all these ancillary businesses in addition to being a direct consumer artist or gallery artist that were fascinating, that supported the entire ecosystem and community and that not a lot of entrepreneurs were building.

Yeah. And some kind of interactive component that's like memeable, like a meme is just a repeated behavior. How do you allow people to repeat a behavior over and over again that elicits positive reactions from the people they're sharing it with? Because that's all that's fueling this virality is like people are going, look, I did this cool thing. Please accept me.

Yeah. And some kind of interactive component that's like memeable, like a meme is just a repeated behavior. How do you allow people to repeat a behavior over and over again that elicits positive reactions from the people they're sharing it with? Because that's all that's fueling this virality is like people are going, look, I did this cool thing. Please accept me.

And then they accept you by giving you likes and comments on the cool thing you did.

And then they accept you by giving you likes and comments on the cool thing you did.

Yeah. And I wouldn't say I figured it out yet, nor do I have like as ambitious aspirate as, as ambitious of aspirations as you, Greg, I don't need to be like the guy who owns a portfolio of businesses till the end of time. Like literally all I want to do is wake up and like water the plants in my garden and go for a walk and like hang out with cool people. And I've arrived at that place in my life.

Yeah. And I wouldn't say I figured it out yet, nor do I have like as ambitious aspirate as, as ambitious of aspirations as you, Greg, I don't need to be like the guy who owns a portfolio of businesses till the end of time. Like literally all I want to do is wake up and like water the plants in my garden and go for a walk and like hang out with cool people. And I've arrived at that place in my life.

And so yeah, I'm trying to cheat to make my life as easy as possible and the viral loop built into the business is a hell of a cheat.

And so yeah, I'm trying to cheat to make my life as easy as possible and the viral loop built into the business is a hell of a cheat.

Different regions, different revenue channels. Like I could see Art City becoming a Kith-like brand where we do collaborations with really high-end other brands. Or I could see Art City becoming like an artist representation company where we're...

Different regions, different revenue channels. Like I could see Art City becoming a Kith-like brand where we do collaborations with really high-end other brands. Or I could see Art City becoming like an artist representation company where we're...

selling large scale sculptures for a whole bunch of artists that we don't actually have sculptures on site with or have their sculptures on our actual property. I could imagine becoming a festival company. There's just, yeah, finding a shelling point and having it be extensible. I think that's what you're doing quite well, Greg.

selling large scale sculptures for a whole bunch of artists that we don't actually have sculptures on site with or have their sculptures on our actual property. I could imagine becoming a festival company. There's just, yeah, finding a shelling point and having it be extensible. I think that's what you're doing quite well, Greg.

And so I think that's where we're going to start is like, think about the world of art as more than just galleries and artists. It's a whole bunch of infrastructure between, and much of it is being ignored by the powers that be, the major institutions, because they're set up to sell a certain type of product to a certain type of person for a certain type of results.

And so I think that's where we're going to start is like, think about the world of art as more than just galleries and artists. It's a whole bunch of infrastructure between, and much of it is being ignored by the powers that be, the major institutions, because they're set up to sell a certain type of product to a certain type of person for a certain type of results.

Totally. Yeah, optionality is important. I get bored easily.

Totally. Yeah, optionality is important. I get bored easily.

Yeah. And one thing I've seen you preaching lately or for a while now is like the lack of need for venture capital and building these types of businesses. And I think that's totally true.

Yeah. And one thing I've seen you preaching lately or for a while now is like the lack of need for venture capital and building these types of businesses. And I think that's totally true.

But as someone that's raised venture capital for, I want to say like six or seven different startups, that process and that going through that structure has helped me think more clearly about how to operate my own businesses now. And so I, It's not that venture is good or bad. It's another path.

But as someone that's raised venture capital for, I want to say like six or seven different startups, that process and that going through that structure has helped me think more clearly about how to operate my own businesses now. And so I, It's not that venture is good or bad. It's another path.

And perhaps exploring it is a good way to get punched in the face a few times and learn exactly what you don't like doing yourself so that when you start your holding company, you've got some strong foundation to stand on.

And perhaps exploring it is a good way to get punched in the face a few times and learn exactly what you don't like doing yourself so that when you start your holding company, you've got some strong foundation to stand on.

Yeah. So next time I come to Miami, can we go for a meal?

Yeah. So next time I come to Miami, can we go for a meal?

Yeah, I'm locked in here making sure that my summer is very profitable. But maybe next year, I'll check that out.

Yeah, I'm locked in here making sure that my summer is very profitable. But maybe next year, I'll check that out.

And that's mostly really expensive products as a store of value and sometimes a way to avoid paying taxes.

And that's mostly really expensive products as a store of value and sometimes a way to avoid paying taxes.

Yeah, and you can reframe what art means. Art doesn't have to be a square white cube with some paintings on the walls. Art can be a way of living, like a way of justifying the materials you use, the choices you make, deeply studying your craft. I think of myself as more living an artistic lifestyle than portraying the archetypal artist.

Yeah, and you can reframe what art means. Art doesn't have to be a square white cube with some paintings on the walls. Art can be a way of living, like a way of justifying the materials you use, the choices you make, deeply studying your craft. I think of myself as more living an artistic lifestyle than portraying the archetypal artist.

And so that's the takeaway is like as a startup entrepreneur, you can live your life artfully and that will actually lead to deeper meaning and perhaps better results.

And so that's the takeaway is like as a startup entrepreneur, you can live your life artfully and that will actually lead to deeper meaning and perhaps better results.

OK, so we should we talk about these ideas?

OK, so we should we talk about these ideas?

OK, I think I think we should start with this idea of a mural agency. So it's not a new idea. I've already built one. I know the ins and outs of it very well. The challenge I had with scaling was moving to new geographies.

OK, I think I think we should start with this idea of a mural agency. So it's not a new idea. I've already built one. I know the ins and outs of it very well. The challenge I had with scaling was moving to new geographies.

And so the opportunity lies in individuals realizing that they're in a tier two city, a tier three city, there's no other mural agency in town, and you can effectively arbitrage the cost of buying a billboard or arbitrage the cost of generating social media attention by creating murals for brands. And I'll talk you through how this business works.

And so the opportunity lies in individuals realizing that they're in a tier two city, a tier three city, there's no other mural agency in town, and you can effectively arbitrage the cost of buying a billboard or arbitrage the cost of generating social media attention by creating murals for brands. And I'll talk you through how this business works.

So if you're driving around any city, you see billboards. A billboard company bought that infrastructure. They put up billboards. They manage the placements. They manage accounting how much traffic goes to those placements. They manage sometimes the creative production, and they sell that to advertisers.

So if you're driving around any city, you see billboards. A billboard company bought that infrastructure. They put up billboards. They manage the placements. They manage accounting how much traffic goes to those placements. They manage sometimes the creative production, and they sell that to advertisers.

Advertisers need that more and more today, especially for hyper-local advertising or really creative out-of-home advertising. But the billboard mafia owns all those placements. If you're driving around a city, you also will notice a whole bunch of blank walls. And those blank walls in the billboard world could be referred to as remnant inventory.

Advertisers need that more and more today, especially for hyper-local advertising or really creative out-of-home advertising. But the billboard mafia owns all those placements. If you're driving around a city, you also will notice a whole bunch of blank walls. And those blank walls in the billboard world could be referred to as remnant inventory.

I'm trying to cheat to make my life as easy as possible. And the viral loop built into the business is a hell of a cheat.

I'm trying to cheat to make my life as easy as possible. And the viral loop built into the business is a hell of a cheat.

They're inventory that hasn't been turned into a billboard placement, maybe because it can't be turned into a billboard placement for practical reasons. But here's the pitch. You go to a business owner or building owner and you say, hey, you've got this wall. How would you like to make a few hundred extra bucks a month? They say, wow, that's cool. Never heard of that.

They're inventory that hasn't been turned into a billboard placement, maybe because it can't be turned into a billboard placement for practical reasons. But here's the pitch. You go to a business owner or building owner and you say, hey, you've got this wall. How would you like to make a few hundred extra bucks a month? They say, wow, that's cool. Never heard of that.

You sign an agreement with them to be able to manage placements on their wall. You then photograph that wall, take dimensional measurements, package it up. You figure out kind of generally what the through traffic is. And then you can price it for sale one for the CPM advertising that you can sell a comparable to that of a billboard to an advertiser and two for the artistic creation of the mural.

You sign an agreement with them to be able to manage placements on their wall. You then photograph that wall, take dimensional measurements, package it up. You figure out kind of generally what the through traffic is. And then you can price it for sale one for the CPM advertising that you can sell a comparable to that of a billboard to an advertiser and two for the artistic creation of the mural.

So the services associated with that, and that can very easily scale to a multimillion dollar business. And I'll tell you how.

So the services associated with that, and that can very easily scale to a multimillion dollar business. And I'll tell you how.

One billboard placement or one mural placement, let's go with mural placement, one mural placement can be anywhere from $10,000 to $20,000 in a high-traffic area. You get a handful of landlords to sign deals with you. All of a sudden, you control millions of dollars of inventory. You go find a killer sales team. You go find a few painters.

One billboard placement or one mural placement, let's go with mural placement, one mural placement can be anywhere from $10,000 to $20,000 in a high-traffic area. You get a handful of landlords to sign deals with you. All of a sudden, you control millions of dollars of inventory. You go find a killer sales team. You go find a few painters.

And all of a sudden, you're just back-officing a mural agency.

And all of a sudden, you're just back-officing a mural agency.

Okay, so start a sales team. You have to have some hard skills to be able to do some of these things. You would need to collateralize your offering. Take photos of the billboard or the mural. I keep calling it a billboard because that's effectively what it is. Take photos of the building, measure it, figure out the total square footage, make a nice little PDF that says this is that placement.

Okay, so start a sales team. You have to have some hard skills to be able to do some of these things. You would need to collateralize your offering. Take photos of the billboard or the mural. I keep calling it a billboard because that's effectively what it is. Take photos of the building, measure it, figure out the total square footage, make a nice little PDF that says this is that placement.

Go online and figure out what the through traffic is based on people driving by. Add that. Extrapolate that number out on a daily basis to a monthly basis. Come up with a total number of impressions you expect to make for a particular advertiser. come up with a handful of formats of types of murals you could paint.

Go online and figure out what the through traffic is based on people driving by. Add that. Extrapolate that number out on a daily basis to a monthly basis. Come up with a total number of impressions you expect to make for a particular advertiser. come up with a handful of formats of types of murals you could paint.

It could be a straight sign, which is probably a lower-end production, or it could be hyper-realistic like photograph, and that could be a higher-end production. And then you go out to advertisers that are advertising on billboards and say, hey, Billboards get ignored. Murals are cool for X, Y, and Z reasons. One of those reasons is the process of putting it up draws attention.

It could be a straight sign, which is probably a lower-end production, or it could be hyper-realistic like photograph, and that could be a higher-end production. And then you go out to advertisers that are advertising on billboards and say, hey, Billboards get ignored. Murals are cool for X, Y, and Z reasons. One of those reasons is the process of putting it up draws attention.

Everyone driving by is going to see this thing going up. They're going to have some kind of emotional connection to it as it gets produced. Eventually, they're going to drive by it and be like, wow. The second thing that's kind of cool about these things is people will take a picture of a mural. They will not take a picture and share a picture of a billboard.

Everyone driving by is going to see this thing going up. They're going to have some kind of emotional connection to it as it gets produced. Eventually, they're going to drive by it and be like, wow. The second thing that's kind of cool about these things is people will take a picture of a mural. They will not take a picture and share a picture of a billboard.

So you're going to get organic social impressions and you're going to get a whole bunch of earned media out of this placement. And you get to work with artists. And if you pick the right artist, you might be able to get them to post on their social feed and tap into their influence. And then all of a sudden you have these multiplying effects on a placement that you're already paying for.

So you're going to get organic social impressions and you're going to get a whole bunch of earned media out of this placement. And you get to work with artists. And if you pick the right artist, you might be able to get them to post on their social feed and tap into their influence. And then all of a sudden you have these multiplying effects on a placement that you're already paying for.

So why wouldn't you work with us? And so that's the sales pitch. I'm like sold, bro. Then in your second question was, how do you get a team of artists? There's a gazillion artists out there that are not making it as full time artists.

So why wouldn't you work with us? And so that's the sales pitch. I'm like sold, bro. Then in your second question was, how do you get a team of artists? There's a gazillion artists out there that are not making it as full time artists.

And in fact, to make it as a full time artist is kind of a curse because you become a like a packaging and shipping and customer service company and you no longer make art. Um, so you've got these artists who would rather paint murals in their free time for an hourly paycheck than work at Starbucks.

And in fact, to make it as a full time artist is kind of a curse because you become a like a packaging and shipping and customer service company and you no longer make art. Um, so you've got these artists who would rather paint murals in their free time for an hourly paycheck than work at Starbucks.

And so you start reaching out to them on Instagram, finding out other artists that have painted murals in your, your local area. And you say, how would you like to be part of our mural agency? Um, we'll go find you clients. We'll pay you a flat fee for production. You give us your portfolio of work. We represent that portfolio work to our clients, um,

And so you start reaching out to them on Instagram, finding out other artists that have painted murals in your, your local area. And you say, how would you like to be part of our mural agency? Um, we'll go find you clients. We'll pay you a flat fee for production. You give us your portfolio of work. We represent that portfolio work to our clients, um,

Um, if a client chooses you and has some kind of like design phase that they need to go through, we'll make sure you get paid. How does that sound? Go out and get a dozen different muralists. And all of a sudden you have a bunch of different capabilities to sell to these advertisers.

Um, if a client chooses you and has some kind of like design phase that they need to go through, we'll make sure you get paid. How does that sound? Go out and get a dozen different muralists. And all of a sudden you have a bunch of different capabilities to sell to these advertisers.

I can speak to my business. It was a big, like high six figure business with a dozen walls in LA, uh, And that was not a hundred percent fill rate. And that was with a team of like five different painters. That business shuttered during the pandemic when people were no longer buying out of home placements and this whole thing kind of fell on its head on its face.

I can speak to my business. It was a big, like high six figure business with a dozen walls in LA, uh, And that was not a hundred percent fill rate. And that was with a team of like five different painters. That business shuttered during the pandemic when people were no longer buying out of home placements and this whole thing kind of fell on its head on its face.

But I think there's an opportunity to bring it back. You could probably get 10 grand per wall per month. So good sales team, maybe it's a 10% sales fee for anyone that brings you a lead. It's $1,200 or $1,000 of the $10,000. Painter, maybe you pay them $1,500. So you're still at a 75% margin. Maybe you've got some equipment, another 5%.

But I think there's an opportunity to bring it back. You could probably get 10 grand per wall per month. So good sales team, maybe it's a 10% sales fee for anyone that brings you a lead. It's $1,200 or $1,000 of the $10,000. Painter, maybe you pay them $1,500. So you're still at a 75% margin. Maybe you've got some equipment, another 5%.

you're at 70% margin and they maybe paid the building under 10% thousand bucks a month. All of a sudden you've got a 60% margin business and it's just churning out murals. Yeah.

you're at 70% margin and they maybe paid the building under 10% thousand bucks a month. All of a sudden you've got a 60% margin business and it's just churning out murals. Yeah.

Right. And if you get like a new local business that comes in, they're going to want something cool and splashy and they're probably going to be willing to pay you for a couple months of advertising.

Right. And if you get like a new local business that comes in, they're going to want something cool and splashy and they're probably going to be willing to pay you for a couple months of advertising.

My pleasure to be here. It's a long time coming. Easier to pin you down for a podcast than a dinner in Miami.

My pleasure to be here. It's a long time coming. Easier to pin you down for a podcast than a dinner in Miami.

Right.

Right.

I mean, cool artists are in small towns and they're waiting out and they're very hungry. It's just about building the frameworks around them to actually enable them to earn with their talent.

I mean, cool artists are in small towns and they're waiting out and they're very hungry. It's just about building the frameworks around them to actually enable them to earn with their talent.

Another way you can kind of speed up your sales process is work with property developers that have tons of buildings. And then you can go out with massive scale to a big advertiser, like a Pepsi or Coca-Cola and say, Hey, do you guys want to buy 10 placements across this tier two city and do this really cool campaign?

Another way you can kind of speed up your sales process is work with property developers that have tons of buildings. And then you can go out with massive scale to a big advertiser, like a Pepsi or Coca-Cola and say, Hey, do you guys want to buy 10 placements across this tier two city and do this really cool campaign?

And then you can charge some kind of crazy, like handholding services fee on top of the actual work and placements.

And then you can charge some kind of crazy, like handholding services fee on top of the actual work and placements.

No. And then you become an acquisition target for a Lamar billboards or, um, colossal media. Um, cause they need to expand their current efforts, which are mostly based in tier one cities.

No. And then you become an acquisition target for a Lamar billboards or, um, colossal media. Um, cause they need to expand their current efforts, which are mostly based in tier one cities.

Any content that's going viral related to a creator inventing a new style of making work and sharing it on TikTok is a product that could be sold on a monthly basis as a box company or in a marketplace. And this is a product you buy that allows you to create content around your purchase. And in doing so, you're inadvertently marketing the thing you bought.

Yeah. If I was in a tier one city, I'd be doing that again, but, uh, I'm in a, not a tier one city anymore.

Exactly. Um, we'll go, we'll go with this art rentals business and we're going to do three art businesses. And then one that's kind of like, um, close to my heart, given the thing I'm doing out in Tucumcari, New Mexico. Um, so art rentals, there's this art dealer called Stefan Simkowitz, um,

Yeah. And done is a relative word. I mean, I operate a large art studio and work with a whole bunch of different people. So I've facilitated or helped out with some crazy stuff. One that might be of note is the changing of the Hollywood sign to say Hollyweed. That was done by an artist in my studio when California legalized cannabis a few years back.

who was referred to by the New York Times as the patron Satan for his art collecting practices and the way he views the art world. I think he's a genius. And he does a couple things. One is he goes to artists and says, hey, I'll pay for all of your production and your studio, and I'll pay you a living wage, but all the work you create, I get to own and sell.

And in some cases, you get a rev share on. And what that does is it enables him to amass a massive inventory of art at a relatively low cost per unit. It also allows him to control the supply of a particular artist's ove or production, which can influence prices down the line. And in some cases, if the artist blows up, you've got all this inventory that's super valuable.

And that's happened to him for a couple of times. This other thing that has happened is he's got this massive inventory of art and he was trying to think about what to do with it. And so he started to rent it out to interior decorators and tier one cities. Um, people that kind of like stage homes, like 10, 20, $50 million homes in LA put really good art up.

And oftentimes, uh, the house just gets bought with the art in it if it's well-placed. And so he liquidates his inventory. He's getting a rental fee and he's getting a services fee to transport the work from his warehouse and install it. Now that works really good for high-end art in tier one cities.

But the thinking is if you're in a small town or let's call it a tier two city, not a small town, and you can go network in with the art community, I'm willing to bet there's a lot of inventory just sitting around with nothing to do. Artists make work. They don't know how to sell it yet. Their demand hasn't caught up with their production. They're not at where they want to be just yet.

So you say it to them, let me consign this work, which effectively means let me take the art, place it, sell it, and take a percentage of the sale in order to do that work for you. And for many artists, that's awesome because they don't want to be sales agents.

And so if you go and get enough of this work signed up, you photograph it, you inventory it, you build out a database of this work, you go talk to interior decorators, you go talk to commercial developers who are building big buildings, you go talk to hotel operators, And they're willing to lease this work from you.

And you could charge something like 10% of the sale price with an option to buy it after seven years or 10 years or whatever, or a discount if you buy it after three. You charge a services fee for an installation. So the lease or would likely want to keep the art for a while because they have to pay an installation fee and a de-installation fee.

And you effectively create a subscription revenue model out of this remnant art inventory. You give a rev share back to the artists for enabling you to have access to the inventory. And you just manage a massive database of artwork sitting in studios.

Precisely. And it largely requires a reframing of what art is. Some people think of art as like... the most important cultural artifacts of a generation. And to be real, many artists are not making the most important cultural artifacts of a generation. They're making pretty things. And what are pretty things? Decorations.

and painted a block of houses millennial pink a developer came to me and said that they were having a hard time getting demolition permits and so they said what could we do that would really make a stink so we painted this block of houses millennial pink thousands of people came to take pictures in front of them and the city ultimately um decided that the houses need to come down

So if you're selling decorations and you can realize as an artist, you're the maker and seller of decoration, you probably want to sell through the appropriate channels, your decorations.

I don't quite get how that works. I think it's different than art in that.

very much money you just have to like do the deal and find the channel yeah so i don't think it's sold in clothing stores per se but it's like a a pop-up boutique in a coffee shop or at a bowling alley or something like that, where you have a secondhand retail vintage store that pops up in different locations. It's effectively flea market stuff.

I'll give you another example of one that just came to mind. Coffee cups should have some kind of thing on them that markets something. And when I was in LA, I did a lot of the murals and brand placements for Alfred Coffee through my mural agency. They were like a network of walls that we sold through.

And once a wall got painted, then the advertiser would often want to buy the sleeves for all the coffee cups as well. So it's like, it's taking these services and bringing them to a retail store and adding revenue to their current infrastructure, which is the hard startup cost of getting a brick and mortar going.

Agreed. So good. Go do it. Go and do it. How many people actually go do the startups and then email you and be like, I did it. I did one of these and it worked.

interesting urban development project. I taught a famous dog how to paint a portrait of itself. And that portrait and video did better than most artists ever do in their entire lives.

I love that. What a service. Thanks for doing that, Greg.

It's great. I love this concept. um should we jump into the next one yeah let's do it okay so this one i don't know that it's a gigantic business but it could be and here's why it could go viral um and so this one is this idea that every day i open tiktok and i love tiktok by the way it's so fun um

Every day I open TikTok and I see some kind of like new creative method being used by some artists that invented that method. And there's a certain number of skilled people that can replicate that method. But because they're skilled, they're probably going to be doing their own thing.

I dragged a duffel bag full of a million dollars in cash, a transparent duffel bag full of a million dollars of cash around an art fair, built the fuselage of a private jet that allowed people to take selfies inside of it, got credit for all those monoliths that started popping up.

But then there's this whole audience of people clicking like and commenting on these like new viral methods that would probably buy like an art kit. And I'll give you an example. Like there's this guy that does like spin paintings and you just dump paint on a canvas that's spinning. You could easily sell that motor and a few components to enable anyone to make a spin painting.

Or there's this other artist that has these spray caps that are unique where he like pipes out a whole bunch of different caps. And as you spray, it creates this really cool texture. that could easily be a product that you sell to everyone that has watched this artist's videos and thought of it as really cool.

Now you could do this without permission and just go out and do it because there's no real copyright on the process for the most part. Or you could go partner with these artists and provide them with a new thing to sell to their growing audience of customers.

So viral art kits, viral pottery kits, viral spray painting kits, like any content that's going viral related to a creator inventing a new style of making work and sharing it on TikTok is a product that could be sold on a monthly basis as a box company or in a marketplace. Now there's manufacturing challenges with this one. There's... There's there's a lot more.

It's probably a harder startup than the first two that we've mentioned because you're actually selling a product rather than a service or a service based product. But I wanted to kick that one out there and see what your response to that was, Greg.

Mm hmm.

And most recently have decided I want to build an art town and move to the middle of New Mexico and have been chipping away at that.

Yeah, and I think the other macro trends that this touches on is it's expensive to live in the world. And people are looking for things to do at home that take time, that feel rewarding and build confidence. People are also a second macro trend as people are more and more becoming content creators. And this is a product you buy that allows you to create content around your purchase.

And in doing so, you're an inadvertently or kind of kind of. marketing the thing you bought. So it's a product that has a viral loop built into it, which I quite like.

I'm not going to do it. Someone else should do it. Someone's going to do all these ideas. Can't wait. Okay, the last one, which I think is kind of cool. So since we last saw each other, which has been years, I moved to this small town. I built an art residency on this ranch.

I've been kind of like getting involved in the local politics of this town, joining various organizations related to economic development in this town, trying to figure out Is there a way to use creatives and culture to revitalize economies of small towns, given that there's this almost death spiral happening in big cities? They're becoming unlivable. They're becoming expensive.

People are now able to work remotely in some cases. And so is there this idea that you can take old infrastructure in small towns and create like little utopias? especially given that the majority of the population in most of these small towns are retired age and on their way to the end of their life.

All of this infrastructure is going to become available for sale largely because the kids of these retirees don't want to move back to these small towns because quality of life isn't there. So I'm trying to figure out if I can like kickstart a small town. And my thesis started with an art residency and that was cool.

Well, the reason I hijacked the narrative is I started in advertising technology.

But what I really needed is people to be able to come to the small town, spend some time, enjoy nature. have an affordable experience and have something to take a lot of pictures up. So I bought 40 acres. I turned it into a glamping site. I brought in a whole bunch of big, huge selfie friendly sculptures. and created what I'm calling Art City.

And it's this concept that could be a franchise that I take to other KOAs or KOAs and start to acquire KOAs through private equity. It's a business that I could just scale myself and have 10 art cities around the country. It could just be like a really nice cashflow business for myself.

I think my guiding principle with anything I take action on is that I have to be able to do it faster than anyone else so I can iterate and make it happen quickly. Also, it has to pencil into 25% ROI no matter what, or else it's kind of like a ungrowable business.

back in like 2008, 9, 10, when Facebook's API was emerging and YouTube and the iPhone were emerging and realized that there were these new centers of attention and there were certain metrics or places that you, metrics you can manipulate or places you needed to be seen in order to capitalize on those attention portals or places for attention.

Um, so came up with this idea, glamping site, 40 acres sculpture park offered 66, 20,000 people drive by every single day because of our proximity to I-40, which is a major thoroughfare land is affordable. Um, it, it just seems to work. One thing that I had to do in order to stimulate demand for my glamp ground was sign up for hip camp, which is like Airbnb for camping.

And if you go look at the hip camp map, there's quite a lot of cool spots, but they're for the most part, very much clustered around certain geographies. But the thing about campers is they're often on road trips and they're crossing the country and there's areas or pockets of the country that have no hip camp sites available. And why is that?

Well, in order to have an appropriate hip camp site, you need to have shower facilities and toilet facilities and perhaps like a fire pit and some infrastructure for these people to camp on, whether they're in a tent or a van. So here's the idea.

Go do a little bit of data analysis on hip camp, figure out where major thoroughfares are, where people are leaving big cities, heading to another location, go to that town in between,

write a letter to a property owner and say hey i'd like to do a joint venture with you where i'm going to invest in bringing in like a composting toilet and an outdoor shower and i'm going to manage your listing on hipcamp and i want a revenue share against the revenue generated and just like folks built these airbnb empires i suspect you could do this with hipcamp and i think the macro trend here is that

For many people that are traveling, Airbnbs are too expensive and they want perhaps a more organic, kind of a little bit more in the woodsy feel experience. And there's already a platform that does most of the heavy lifting and finding these customers for you.

And the other thing that's happening with campers and van lifers is they're mostly content creators. And so this has this other built-in viral loop. One theme in all my stuff is like, how do you make it so that your customers share your story and bring you more business organically?

And so this particular category of accommodations does satisfy that condition that most of your customers are going to market the thing for you after they've experienced it once.

The challenge is like... How do you find the perfect composting, toilet, outdoor shower combo that comes on a semi-truck and you fork off and drop down and it just works? Because most people are not going to want to plug into their septic or their sewer. They're going to want something self-sustaining. This might require some capital to actually get started.

And that's where I really honed my skills that I'm now kind of playing out in art. Most of my art to date has been me starting with a headline, thinking to myself, what headline could I make? And then reverse engineering actually how to do it, which publication to pitch it to, how to create enough digital artifacts to tell the story. I've shied away from that.

Those are some of the challenges I see in building out this business.

Well, like a really, like I bought a really nice composting toilet from my site and it was like 14 grand for a two seater. Um, but this is like the top of the line. Um, you could probably do like an outdoor shower and a composting toilet for closer to a grand or two grand or something like that. So let's say you get 40 bucks a night per camper. You've got a 50% fill rate. That's six grand a month.

Um, I think that's six grand a month, 44, no, 600 bucks a month. Um, you could, you could probably break even within the year and then you own the infrastructure and you keep doing that. My math was way off. I'm not that dumb.

One theme in all my stuff is like, how do you make it so that your customers share your story and bring you more business organically?

Did you just, okay. So when the, when the editor goes in, I'm not that dumb. Um, Exactly. So those are some of the ideas I had. I mean, I'm really into what Cody Sanchez was talking about related to like roll up of services, businesses in small towns and operationalizing them. I'm seeing that as a need here in this town, but I'm not a subject matter expert on that.

And I'll probably end up doing it here in Tucumcari. But yeah, those are the big ideas for today, Greg.

Visitartcity.com is where you can find day passes to Art City, learn about the artists involved, book overnight stays. And themostfamousartist.com is where you can see all my work. Yeah, and if you're cruising through Tucumcari, DM me on Instagram at themostfamousartist and I'll show you around. And otherwise, my email is maddie at themostfamousartist.com.

And I'm open to hearing about people starting these businesses and having tremendous success with them.

Have you heard of Marfa, Texas? Yes. Okay. So Marfa, Texas was this military town and kind of in the middle of nowhere, West Texas. Um, Donald Judd moved there with the help of this rich lawyer guy, bought up a bunch of infrastructure, built a studio, brought his friends out there and Marfa's real estate 10 X in the last decade or so. Um, That's an example of how art can kind of impact an economy.

I would like to have a tremendous measurable impact on Tugendkari and prove that like investing in art is a good thing because it drives the economy.

Um, I could see a world wherein I partner with large scale property developers and become like the creative director of their entire portfolio, given the relationships I've got with these large scale sculpture artists and the understanding of installing and selling this stuff.

Um, ideally a whole bunch of knowledge workers and artists and creatives moved to Tucumcari, an entirely new industry is born. And I'm not sure what that looks like. Um,

And I would say like in 2020, when the pandemic hit, I was looking at you and Jack Butcher leading these digital communities and realized that was definitely the future.

I imagine Art City in its current instantiation will be some kind of franchise business or a roll-up of a whole bunch of different campsites that I turn into Art Cities and then like a acquisition by a publicly traded glamping, glamp site or trailer park operator or something like that. Because what I'm building is the viral version of a campsite or the viral version of a trailer park.

Yeah, it used to be start with the headline because headlines used to be a method through which you could go viral. And then the news media just got all wacky and it was no longer that interesting. And then everyone became a creator. So how do you empower people to create content because they've used your product?

So I would say that you guys were a big inspiration for that and started an art community and then realized there was all these ancillary businesses in addition to being a direct consumer artist or gallery artist that were fascinating, that supported the entire ecosystem and community and that not a lot of entrepreneurs were building.

Yeah. And some kind of interactive component that's like memeable, like a meme is just a repeated behavior. How do you allow people to repeat a behavior over and over again that elicits positive reactions from the people they're sharing it with? Because that's all that's fueling this virality is like people are going, look, I did this cool thing. Please accept me.

And then they accept you by giving you likes and comments on the cool thing you did.

Yeah. And I wouldn't say I figured it out yet, nor do I have like as ambitious aspirate as, as ambitious of aspirations as you, Greg, I don't need to be like the guy who owns a portfolio of businesses till the end of time. Like literally all I want to do is wake up and like water the plants in my garden and go for a walk and like hang out with cool people. And I've arrived at that place in my life.

And so yeah, I'm trying to cheat to make my life as easy as possible and the viral loop built into the business is a hell of a cheat.

Different regions, different revenue channels. Like I could see Art City becoming a Kith-like brand where we do collaborations with really high-end other brands. Or I could see Art City becoming like an artist representation company where we're...

selling large scale sculptures for a whole bunch of artists that we don't actually have sculptures on site with or have their sculptures on our actual property. I could imagine becoming a festival company. There's just, yeah, finding a shelling point and having it be extensible. I think that's what you're doing quite well, Greg.

And so I think that's where we're going to start is like, think about the world of art as more than just galleries and artists. It's a whole bunch of infrastructure between, and much of it is being ignored by the powers that be, the major institutions, because they're set up to sell a certain type of product to a certain type of person for a certain type of results.

Totally. Yeah, optionality is important. I get bored easily.

Yeah. And one thing I've seen you preaching lately or for a while now is like the lack of need for venture capital and building these types of businesses. And I think that's totally true.

But as someone that's raised venture capital for, I want to say like six or seven different startups, that process and that going through that structure has helped me think more clearly about how to operate my own businesses now. And so I, It's not that venture is good or bad. It's another path.

And perhaps exploring it is a good way to get punched in the face a few times and learn exactly what you don't like doing yourself so that when you start your holding company, you've got some strong foundation to stand on.

Yeah. So next time I come to Miami, can we go for a meal?

Yeah, I'm locked in here making sure that my summer is very profitable. But maybe next year, I'll check that out.

And that's mostly really expensive products as a store of value and sometimes a way to avoid paying taxes.

Yeah, and you can reframe what art means. Art doesn't have to be a square white cube with some paintings on the walls. Art can be a way of living, like a way of justifying the materials you use, the choices you make, deeply studying your craft. I think of myself as more living an artistic lifestyle than portraying the archetypal artist.

And so that's the takeaway is like as a startup entrepreneur, you can live your life artfully and that will actually lead to deeper meaning and perhaps better results.

OK, so we should we talk about these ideas?

OK, I think I think we should start with this idea of a mural agency. So it's not a new idea. I've already built one. I know the ins and outs of it very well. The challenge I had with scaling was moving to new geographies.

And so the opportunity lies in individuals realizing that they're in a tier two city, a tier three city, there's no other mural agency in town, and you can effectively arbitrage the cost of buying a billboard or arbitrage the cost of generating social media attention by creating murals for brands. And I'll talk you through how this business works.

So if you're driving around any city, you see billboards. A billboard company bought that infrastructure. They put up billboards. They manage the placements. They manage accounting how much traffic goes to those placements. They manage sometimes the creative production, and they sell that to advertisers.

Advertisers need that more and more today, especially for hyper-local advertising or really creative out-of-home advertising. But the billboard mafia owns all those placements. If you're driving around a city, you also will notice a whole bunch of blank walls. And those blank walls in the billboard world could be referred to as remnant inventory.

I'm trying to cheat to make my life as easy as possible. And the viral loop built into the business is a hell of a cheat.

They're inventory that hasn't been turned into a billboard placement, maybe because it can't be turned into a billboard placement for practical reasons. But here's the pitch. You go to a business owner or building owner and you say, hey, you've got this wall. How would you like to make a few hundred extra bucks a month? They say, wow, that's cool. Never heard of that.

You sign an agreement with them to be able to manage placements on their wall. You then photograph that wall, take dimensional measurements, package it up. You figure out kind of generally what the through traffic is. And then you can price it for sale one for the CPM advertising that you can sell a comparable to that of a billboard to an advertiser and two for the artistic creation of the mural.

So the services associated with that, and that can very easily scale to a multimillion dollar business. And I'll tell you how.

One billboard placement or one mural placement, let's go with mural placement, one mural placement can be anywhere from $10,000 to $20,000 in a high-traffic area. You get a handful of landlords to sign deals with you. All of a sudden, you control millions of dollars of inventory. You go find a killer sales team. You go find a few painters.

And all of a sudden, you're just back-officing a mural agency.

Okay, so start a sales team. You have to have some hard skills to be able to do some of these things. You would need to collateralize your offering. Take photos of the billboard or the mural. I keep calling it a billboard because that's effectively what it is. Take photos of the building, measure it, figure out the total square footage, make a nice little PDF that says this is that placement.

Go online and figure out what the through traffic is based on people driving by. Add that. Extrapolate that number out on a daily basis to a monthly basis. Come up with a total number of impressions you expect to make for a particular advertiser. come up with a handful of formats of types of murals you could paint.

It could be a straight sign, which is probably a lower-end production, or it could be hyper-realistic like photograph, and that could be a higher-end production. And then you go out to advertisers that are advertising on billboards and say, hey, Billboards get ignored. Murals are cool for X, Y, and Z reasons. One of those reasons is the process of putting it up draws attention.

Everyone driving by is going to see this thing going up. They're going to have some kind of emotional connection to it as it gets produced. Eventually, they're going to drive by it and be like, wow. The second thing that's kind of cool about these things is people will take a picture of a mural. They will not take a picture and share a picture of a billboard.

So you're going to get organic social impressions and you're going to get a whole bunch of earned media out of this placement. And you get to work with artists. And if you pick the right artist, you might be able to get them to post on their social feed and tap into their influence. And then all of a sudden you have these multiplying effects on a placement that you're already paying for.

So why wouldn't you work with us? And so that's the sales pitch. I'm like sold, bro. Then in your second question was, how do you get a team of artists? There's a gazillion artists out there that are not making it as full time artists.

And in fact, to make it as a full time artist is kind of a curse because you become a like a packaging and shipping and customer service company and you no longer make art. Um, so you've got these artists who would rather paint murals in their free time for an hourly paycheck than work at Starbucks.

And so you start reaching out to them on Instagram, finding out other artists that have painted murals in your, your local area. And you say, how would you like to be part of our mural agency? Um, we'll go find you clients. We'll pay you a flat fee for production. You give us your portfolio of work. We represent that portfolio work to our clients, um,

Um, if a client chooses you and has some kind of like design phase that they need to go through, we'll make sure you get paid. How does that sound? Go out and get a dozen different muralists. And all of a sudden you have a bunch of different capabilities to sell to these advertisers.

I can speak to my business. It was a big, like high six figure business with a dozen walls in LA, uh, And that was not a hundred percent fill rate. And that was with a team of like five different painters. That business shuttered during the pandemic when people were no longer buying out of home placements and this whole thing kind of fell on its head on its face.

But I think there's an opportunity to bring it back. You could probably get 10 grand per wall per month. So good sales team, maybe it's a 10% sales fee for anyone that brings you a lead. It's $1,200 or $1,000 of the $10,000. Painter, maybe you pay them $1,500. So you're still at a 75% margin. Maybe you've got some equipment, another 5%.

you're at 70% margin and they maybe paid the building under 10% thousand bucks a month. All of a sudden you've got a 60% margin business and it's just churning out murals. Yeah.

Right. And if you get like a new local business that comes in, they're going to want something cool and splashy and they're probably going to be willing to pay you for a couple months of advertising.

My pleasure to be here. It's a long time coming. Easier to pin you down for a podcast than a dinner in Miami.

Right.

I mean, cool artists are in small towns and they're waiting out and they're very hungry. It's just about building the frameworks around them to actually enable them to earn with their talent.

Another way you can kind of speed up your sales process is work with property developers that have tons of buildings. And then you can go out with massive scale to a big advertiser, like a Pepsi or Coca-Cola and say, Hey, do you guys want to buy 10 placements across this tier two city and do this really cool campaign?

And then you can charge some kind of crazy, like handholding services fee on top of the actual work and placements.

No. And then you become an acquisition target for a Lamar billboards or, um, colossal media. Um, cause they need to expand their current efforts, which are mostly based in tier one cities.