Marybeth D'Souza
Appearances
Experts of Experience
5 Customer Success Trends You Can’t Ignore in 2025
Customer success is facing an identity crisis right now. How do we just fundamentally turn customer success on its head?
Experts of Experience
5 Customer Success Trends You Can’t Ignore in 2025
Yeah, I break it down. If I think customer success can influence your adoption, it can influence your growth, it can influence your retention, break it down into these chunks and then say, okay, how can we articulate that? If I am able to have a customer success capability that helps my clients or my customers grow
Experts of Experience
5 Customer Success Trends You Can’t Ignore in 2025
realize value, the intended value in the time that they were planning on or faster, then you know what? Then I can tee up my sales counterparts or the sales organization to be in a position to go sell the next thing. And so, you know, there's a...
Experts of Experience
5 Customer Success Trends You Can’t Ignore in 2025
kind of an agreement that needs to happen with your sales team of like, let me help deliver on the promise you made so that you can go make more promises. So I think that there's an understanding then of like, okay, then what does adoption mean? Or what does time to value mean? What are the things that we need to do immediately?
Experts of Experience
5 Customer Success Trends You Can’t Ignore in 2025
I'm gonna mention before, I think there's a lot we can learn, like B2B can learn from B2C, B2C can learn from B2B. This is one of those, you know, customer expectations are turning into B2C expectations. Where I made a decision, I made a purchase, I want to start getting value immediately. I don't have time to wait. I want to start getting value immediately.
Experts of Experience
5 Customer Success Trends You Can’t Ignore in 2025
And so, yeah, that critical role, I think, of customer success helping there. If I think about the expansion or growth, we do... No.
Experts of Experience
5 Customer Success Trends You Can’t Ignore in 2025
And I've seen and we have data around it that says if you deploy in certain if you deploy the right technical expertise to be a customer success and you have the tailored best practices and insights to your customers, there's like a 10 to 20 percent uplift in expansion.
Experts of Experience
5 Customer Success Trends You Can’t Ignore in 2025
that's how you articulate the value is you show the right skill sets or I put the right capabilities in front of my customers and we're going to have a higher expansion, accelerated expansion. That's revenue. There you go. Like they give me more of that. And then the same thing on retention is,
Experts of Experience
5 Customer Success Trends You Can’t Ignore in 2025
I think if we're able to, you've delivered on the value, you've expanded your footprint or relationship, and there's a higher likelihood and propensity to renew, less churn, and you are committed to what's our revenue retention rate intended to be, again, you're articulating the value.
Experts of Experience
5 Customer Success Trends You Can’t Ignore in 2025
And I think the leaders who are willing to do that and say, I'm going to put in place the instrumentation to attribute what my teams or my technology is doing, and then they're able to report on that, they're getting more investment and they're getting more funding.
Experts of Experience
5 Customer Success Trends You Can’t Ignore in 2025
It's an interesting question. And I, it makes me think of a few things, which is one with the proliferation of technology and data, it is really hard sometimes to like sort through what is really important.
Experts of Experience
5 Customer Success Trends You Can’t Ignore in 2025
The other is that as we have a lot of pressure on our customer success teams, and there is a ton to be done with technology in order to scale the teams, but we may make some questions around coverage and segmentation that actually increases the book of business. You're actually putting some of that at risk because you're like, what is the level of time and how am I spending time with my customers?
Experts of Experience
5 Customer Success Trends You Can’t Ignore in 2025
in order to move from that transactional, like, did we do what we said we were going to do? Let's check off the activities to some of those meaningful conversations, insightful conversations. And I think that that's a really important push that you're making of like, let's not over index too much.
Experts of Experience
5 Customer Success Trends You Can’t Ignore in 2025
With the introduction of AI, there's a ton of opportunity to change customer success. We have talked about, and in the industry, people have talked about digital CS for years. It started as a segment. Like, it's like, okay, we're going to have like digital CS to handle the lower end and Now, digital is not a segment. It should be deployed and leveraged for all segments.
Experts of Experience
5 Customer Success Trends You Can’t Ignore in 2025
And then it's really, for our previous conversation, how do you deploy humans or interventions where it makes sense? And the introduction of AI is really just helping to make that, I would say, table stakes now, where I said before, companies may have invested a little bit, but not fully. Now it's table stakes to have the right infrastructure and the right data in place
Experts of Experience
5 Customer Success Trends You Can’t Ignore in 2025
in order to leverage AI, because you're going to need to do it with your teams and your customers also expect it. Like your customers expect you, how about this data on me? I'm sure you're, you know, introducing, whether it's very low hanging fruit, like meeting summaries and notes and follow-ups to something much more transformational.
Experts of Experience
5 Customer Success Trends You Can’t Ignore in 2025
Like they're expecting it of the companies that they're working with as well.
Experts of Experience
5 Customer Success Trends You Can’t Ignore in 2025
We've interviewed over 35 leading companies around where are they placing their bets? Where are they investing? And there's five themes that have emerged.
Experts of Experience
5 Customer Success Trends You Can’t Ignore in 2025
Yeah, well, thanks for having me. And it was really great meeting you and just the energy at the Women in Customer Success Summit in the fall was wonderful. I've been in the customer success space for over a decade.
Experts of Experience
5 Customer Success Trends You Can’t Ignore in 2025
Yeah. I, the way I think right now, the challenge that we have is moving from experiments. Like last year was the year of pilots. People are like, let me try a pilot leveraging AI. And so it's, how do you move from an experiment to actually scaling? And in order to do that, there's a couple of, there's some things that kind of need to be true.
Experts of Experience
5 Customer Success Trends You Can’t Ignore in 2025
You need to have, like I said, like the right data models. You need to have the right infrastructure there in order to, within your company, in order to do that. We find a lot of AI projects end up being data projects because that's a precursor to that.
Experts of Experience
5 Customer Success Trends You Can’t Ignore in 2025
You need to have the right level of governance and infrastructure in place in order to manage at an enterprise level so that little AI experiments don't get out of control. And you need to also have an understanding with the organization around what's the level of trust we have? How do we introduce this while still having a human in the loop? And how are we navigating this change? And so...
Experts of Experience
5 Customer Success Trends You Can’t Ignore in 2025
And that's really, I think, the moment we're in right now is, you know, there's been a lot of really interesting things that have happened that, you know, maybe save some time. But as you look to scale those, it's going to require leadership and cross-functional kind of collaboration in order to do it. The other way that I see...
Experts of Experience
5 Customer Success Trends You Can’t Ignore in 2025
And when we talk about customer success, we're really talking about in a B2B context, primarily in tech or software, how are you driving value through adoption in order to retain and grow your customers? And, you know, what I've seen is some trends, both through kind of lived experiences or working with clients, but also backed by data is that customer success now is really at an inflection point.
Experts of Experience
5 Customer Success Trends You Can’t Ignore in 2025
AI kind of the opportunities for AI in CS is there's, I look at them in three buckets. There's the efficiency play, like the stuff that like, let's pick, let's save some time. How do you prep for a call better? How do you pull your materials together better? Send some emails or follow-ups. So those are efficiency things.
Experts of Experience
5 Customer Success Trends You Can’t Ignore in 2025
They're interesting, but they're not really going to drastically change your engagement with your customer. The second bucket is more interesting, which is the experience, which is how do we take like a process and make that end-to-end better? And I'm seeing companies, you know, kind of do that, take that approach and introduce and kind of really fundamentally change, say...
Experts of Experience
5 Customer Success Trends You Can’t Ignore in 2025
Like I said, the success planning process to have more insight, be more insights driven. And then what I'm really excited about, which is the exponential change. Like, how do we just fundamentally turn customer success on its head? And, you know, like I said before, but like, how do we... put adoption in the hands of our customers? How do we engage them in realizing our value?
Experts of Experience
5 Customer Success Trends You Can’t Ignore in 2025
How do we make sure that we have the insights that we need to give them the most tailored and personalized recommendations? That's not something you're going to be able to solve in like a day, you know, or with one use case, but it's really this exponential. And so I'm excited about all three of them. I think
Experts of Experience
5 Customer Success Trends You Can’t Ignore in 2025
It's going to take a combination and like a portfolio approach in order to to make some meaningful change. But I think there's there's a huge amount of opportunity.
Experts of Experience
5 Customer Success Trends You Can’t Ignore in 2025
I would think, think about, there's some companies out there who have surfaced like their own, I would say customer success, success dashboard to their customers that says, you know, here's, you know, your progress on certain areas. Here's the, We know who in your organization has certifications or training. And oh, by the way, you might have a gap in a certain area because someone just left.
Experts of Experience
5 Customer Success Trends You Can’t Ignore in 2025
Here's benchmarks relative to your peer set and where you're leading or maybe where we should have some opportunities. So there are some companies out there who have surfaced those insights in a digital form to their to their customers.
Experts of Experience
5 Customer Success Trends You Can’t Ignore in 2025
I think about this a lot because this is critical to anything that we've been talking about. What's the talent you have or who are you attracting into customer success or even sending out to other parts of the organization? because you want to have ambassadors for CS and other parts of the organization. There's three buckets of skill sets.
Experts of Experience
5 Customer Success Trends You Can’t Ignore in 2025
One is, what is the technical expertise and capability that you're bringing? It may be product, it may be an industry, you know, or vertical that you're serving, or it may be, you know, some other, sort of capability and process that you're advising your customers on. But you need to have some level of technical capability that you're bringing both to your organization and to your customers.
Experts of Experience
5 Customer Success Trends You Can’t Ignore in 2025
This is no longer, you know, optional. It's no longer kind of a bet. Let's see how it plays out. Like it is a critical opportunity. part of driving that ongoing value, helping your customers to, you know, really in their business to grow themselves. And then as yourself as a company, how are you actually managing your existing customer base?
Experts of Experience
5 Customer Success Trends You Can’t Ignore in 2025
The second is data and insights and the ability to look at data, analyze data, and really understand how do you use that to inform What steps and actions do you take? A lot of historical CS, I would say, is based on gut feel or experience. And that is absolutely valuable. But in today's world, it needs to be augmented with and driven by data that's available to us.
Experts of Experience
5 Customer Success Trends You Can’t Ignore in 2025
And then the third is the enduring or human skills. How do you manage executive level relationships? How do you navigate conflict? How do you think through ambiguity? And others out there probably have other suggestions of different skill sets, but I found that it fundamentally comes down to those three buckets.
Experts of Experience
5 Customer Success Trends You Can’t Ignore in 2025
And then understanding, okay, what's the company I'm working with, the maturity, the size, the stage? That's going to inform what proportion of skill sets you kind of need at the time. And really then, you know, and then how you grow. So you may need, you know, to flex in one area, but then over time, you're going to need to round out with some of the other areas.
Experts of Experience
5 Customer Success Trends You Can’t Ignore in 2025
I would get a little bit specific on that. I talked to a lot of folks who are looking for their next role or thinking about their career path and they, When it's very general of I've managed customers or I advocate for the customer, it's really hard to internalize for someone who maybe it's hard to internalize what that differentiated value is.
Experts of Experience
5 Customer Success Trends You Can’t Ignore in 2025
I'm not saying there's a ton of value in it, but you have to articulate it in a way that others outside of CS will understand. Yeah.
Experts of Experience
5 Customer Success Trends You Can’t Ignore in 2025
There's probably an element of it that's always important. Whether you're looking at internally, what's the level of influence or collaboration you need from other groups? Like, do I need information from another team in order to bring that information to my customer? Or are they relying, is another team relying on me? Like, there's a level of, I think, that collaboration and
Experts of Experience
5 Customer Success Trends You Can’t Ignore in 2025
We at Deloitte, we do, as I mentioned, kind of through data, we tend to do a number of studies and research that look at the state of customer success. And we're just coming out of with our most recent one where we've interviewed a over 35 leading companies, like leaders from these leading companies around where are they placing their bets? Where are they investing?
Experts of Experience
5 Customer Success Trends You Can’t Ignore in 2025
And navigation, that's always important. I think it does, as you progress, probably that portion, and I talked about kind of the balance, that portion probably increases because your external facing and influence, navigating conflict may continue to be more prevalent. And so it's something to hone in on and build through experiences over time.
Experts of Experience
5 Customer Success Trends You Can’t Ignore in 2025
I would say embrace it. In the last couple of years, there has been a couple of things that have happened in organizations. There's been more of a convergence, I would say, of like sales leaders and post sales leaders to work together, like what the scope is. There's also been this debate about where do renewals sit? Do they sit with sales? Do they sit with CS? Is it a separate one?
Experts of Experience
5 Customer Success Trends You Can’t Ignore in 2025
And there's others that you could probably share that you've seen as well. What all of that shows to me is that the CS capabilities are now being recognized in other parts of the organization. There is an understanding that the renewal happens when the sale happens. It's like starting when the sale happens. There's always indications of how healthy is a customer going to be.
Experts of Experience
5 Customer Success Trends You Can’t Ignore in 2025
There's an intent and a recognition that maintaining and growing your existing customer's is going to probably have a lower cost to serve than going out and getting the new customers. And product teams absolutely recognize that as well. And so there's just this recognition that we all can play a role in those
Experts of Experience
5 Customer Success Trends You Can’t Ignore in 2025
capabilities and so it's kind of like so it's like embrace it that's great let's figure out what is the right like what is the right thing that we need to do with our customers and if there are certain capabilities or um activities that happen earlier in the process with like a bdr or a sales person fantastic that'll make the the downstream you know roles and value even greater.
Experts of Experience
5 Customer Success Trends You Can’t Ignore in 2025
If there are certain things that you can build within your product or leveraging your operations team, great, do it. It'll only maximize the value. So it really comes down to just throw away any functional silos and work through how to drive that, I would say, integrated experience for your customers.
Experts of Experience
5 Customer Success Trends You Can’t Ignore in 2025
And there's five themes that have emerged from them. And I'll just kind of cover them. And you tell me if you want to go over any of them.
Experts of Experience
5 Customer Success Trends You Can’t Ignore in 2025
Honestly, it's go back to the basics. Like, do we have a common understanding of what our customer's journey is, what their expectations are from us at different stages of business? their journey, what our roles are and where we all work together. Do we have a common vernacular that we're using or are we talking about similar things but using different language?
Experts of Experience
5 Customer Success Trends You Can’t Ignore in 2025
The first is that customer success is facing an identity crisis right now. There's been a ton of variation in in what customer success means. And so there's really an opportunity to define what the future is, what the value and differentiated impact is of customer success.
Experts of Experience
5 Customer Success Trends You Can’t Ignore in 2025
And are we working off of the same data set and the same technology and the same data sets? It's interesting. It's kind of, you know, you kind of have to laugh at it. You're like, it's actually, you know, it's not revolutionary. It's go back to the basics. And maybe that customer journey and that end-to-end alignment that you had three years ago worked.
Experts of Experience
5 Customer Success Trends You Can’t Ignore in 2025
But let's recognize that, like, macroeconomics conditions have changed. What our customers are expecting has changed. Technology has, you know, really disrupted our thinking and possibilities. have we reflected that in how we are all aligned? And a lot of times what I'm finding is the answer is no. So let's take a step back and let's realign on that. And anytime we do a customer journey,
Experts of Experience
5 Customer Success Trends You Can’t Ignore in 2025
two things happen. One is there's always, if you take a journey, there's always a set of things where there's many, many people involved or roles or, or, you know, interactions with the customer that are overlapping and super confusing. And then there's also always a big gap, at least one, sometimes there's more, but there's a big gap.
Experts of Experience
5 Customer Success Trends You Can’t Ignore in 2025
You're like, okay, so if I look at this customer in year two, who's taking care of them in year two and three?
Experts of Experience
5 Customer Success Trends You Can’t Ignore in 2025
That's really where I think we have right now. It's like, take a step back, go back to the basics. Are we all aligned? Okay. Now we know what we can, we can do together.
Experts of Experience
5 Customer Success Trends You Can’t Ignore in 2025
every once in a while and kind of realign on how are we giving the customer what they need throughout this experience that they have with us yeah i did i did a journey workshop not too long ago and it was great because one of the insights was the team the support team was like oh yeah we've been having these call like calls come in or cases come in and we absolutely think they need
Experts of Experience
5 Customer Success Trends You Can’t Ignore in 2025
another you know product or another some recommendations like and how was this shared with the rest like was did you act on it and how it was shared with other teams so that they could act on it it was like okay there's not how do we there's an opportunity so how do we systematically instill that because yeah you do have a lot of insight in one area of the organization that others will benefit from so it it is a it's a tried and true tool but it's
Experts of Experience
5 Customer Success Trends You Can’t Ignore in 2025
The second is that decreased budgets and pressure on efficient growth is forcing customer success leaders to invest in digital capabilities, take advantage of all the technology that's out there and And again, it's not something you can talk about and think about. It has to be done in order to serve a growing customer base.
Experts of Experience
5 Customer Success Trends You Can’t Ignore in 2025
I think it's even more relevant today.
Experts of Experience
5 Customer Success Trends You Can’t Ignore in 2025
That left me impressed. I've been super impressed with DoorDash recently. We recently set them up as a business with business accounts. And it's been a game changer in how I've, you know, been able to support my teams, myself and my clients and not just food delivery, but also some of the expansion that they've had into other verticals. Yeah.
Experts of Experience
5 Customer Success Trends You Can’t Ignore in 2025
some of the experience so it's like the offers the rapid innovation the ease has been really great but also when there's been an issue um and it doesn't matter whose fault it is like they have instantly responded and resolved it and made it even better than what it was before so i've been super impressed with them lately yeah i had that experience as well where something went wrong and they were they responded immediately problem solved they're clearly using ai i'm sure
Experts of Experience
5 Customer Success Trends You Can’t Ignore in 2025
Don't underestimate the amount of time that is needed to influence and collaborate cross-functionally. Time is finite. How are you spending your time and making sure that you are doing enough to collaborate, influence, and break down those cross-functional silos so that your teams can do better and really like you meet and exceed your customer expectations.
Experts of Experience
5 Customer Success Trends You Can’t Ignore in 2025
The third is that customer success is, as you mentioned, no longer just a team. It's really embedded across the entire go-to-market lifecycle. It's a mindset. It's a capability that organizations take to their customers. And so that requires quite a bit of organizational shift and change. The fourth is that customer success teams are... themselves disrupting.
Experts of Experience
5 Customer Success Trends You Can’t Ignore in 2025
Thank you. It was a pleasure.
Experts of Experience
5 Customer Success Trends You Can’t Ignore in 2025
And so those that are in customer success roles, individual contributors, managers, or leaders, really like the skills that are needed, how their career paths are, are navigated. Those are changing right now. And there's a huge opportunity from a talent standpoint.
Experts of Experience
5 Customer Success Trends You Can’t Ignore in 2025
And then the fifth, which again, is one of those things that I think we've talked about, but it's like, you know, the, like you need to actually action on it these days is the coordination and collaboration with product and customer success. And that's, The tight integration, like I said, the collaboration is really needed to drive insights and growth in today's environment.
Experts of Experience
5 Customer Success Trends You Can’t Ignore in 2025
Customer expectations are turning into B2C expectations. I made a purchase. I don't have time to wait. I want to start getting value immediately. If you deploy the right technical expertise, there's a 10 to 20% uplift in expansion. Let me help deliver on the promise you made so that you can go make more promises.
Experts of Experience
5 Customer Success Trends You Can’t Ignore in 2025
So those are the five themes that have emerged in the last couple of months based on our research with some of the leading companies.
Experts of Experience
5 Customer Success Trends You Can’t Ignore in 2025
Yeah, I've spent a lot of time thinking about this because I think there can be so much value in what customer success drives. And it's almost like the benefit is the curse. Like the people who tend to be attracted to customer success are are the ones who want to advocate for their customers. They want to solve problems. They want to be there in order to help their customers.
Experts of Experience
5 Customer Success Trends You Can’t Ignore in 2025
But then the downside of that is sometimes they tend to do a whole bunch of things and it's not really clear, again, what their differentiated value is. Are they covering for support? Are they taking product feedback? Do they complain that sales are... There's no room for that.
Experts of Experience
5 Customer Success Trends You Can’t Ignore in 2025
Really, where the leaders, the organizations that are effective, that have sustained over the last couple of years where there's been a lot of pressure in some areas, restructuring of customer success organizations, they're the ones who have, we say, pick a lane. They've made statements around where their differentiated value is. They've aligned on that cross-functionally.
Experts of Experience
5 Customer Success Trends You Can’t Ignore in 2025
And they are committed to delivering financial results. Whether that's signing up for an NRR or GRR number, or it's through attribution by saying, we know that what we're doing is going to attribute to higher growth, whatever that may be based on the situation, but they are committed to those financial results.
Experts of Experience
5 Customer Success Trends You Can’t Ignore in 2025
And in those areas, I think the customer success as an identity is thriving and there's opportunity for them to continue to grow and make an impact in the organization. Mm-hmm.
Experts of Experience
5 Customer Success Trends You Can’t Ignore in 2025
Yeah, I completely agree. And I would say, you know, it is around like, what is that differentiated role that you're driving in order to deliver on the results that you've said, which those results, which by the way, hopefully they are committed to at an executive and a board level. Like there should be a conversation there.
Experts of Experience
5 Customer Success Trends You Can’t Ignore in 2025
And to your point, like then let me lock arms with my support leader or my sales leader or my product leader so that collectively we can understand what each person organization's role is and we can support each other collectively. And I do see that it's a leadership opportunity.
Experts of Experience
5 Customer Success Trends You Can’t Ignore in 2025
And, you know, to that point, like I did a set of interviews with some CS leaders about 18 months ago and said, okay, so what's... made you so successful? Or what's your future? And one of the key insights that came out was, as you're moving from, say, an individual contributor of a manager to a leader, the skill sets that we need in our CS leaders are business and financial acumen.
Experts of Experience
5 Customer Success Trends You Can’t Ignore in 2025
Spend some time with your CFO or their finance team and understand really, you know, how you are fitting into the business and how you can drive the financial results. And it was a really good insight, I think, around some of that growth and kind of expanding the mindset.
Experts of Experience
5 Customer Success Trends You Can’t Ignore in 2025
Yeah, I think, you know, again, one of the things I anchor on is that customer success can be an orchestrator of a proactive orchestrator of the customer experience.
Experts of Experience
5 Customer Success Trends You Can’t Ignore in 2025
That means that they're not going to do everything, but that they can help orchestrate and look across the entire lifecycle around and a customer's journey around really where they do, you know, realize value or maybe they're at risk or... Maybe there's a propensity to grow.
Experts of Experience
5 Customer Success Trends You Can’t Ignore in 2025
And so I think having that full view and bringing folks together to have that full view is... First of all, that's important to then understand, okay, what data do we need to look at? And how do we think about it? And so if you have that understanding, then kind of looking at, can I say, three different buckets of data? One is... kind of what we naturally think about.
Experts of Experience
5 Customer Success Trends You Can’t Ignore in 2025
What's your performance like with your customer? Are they using your product or service? What kind of insights can we get from the level of usage that they have? The second is really then the experience value and what type, what's their sentiment? How easy do we make it
Experts of Experience
5 Customer Success Trends You Can’t Ignore in 2025
to do business with us, or are we making, you know, anytime they have a question, how quickly are we responding with the right answer at the right time? And then the last one is financial value, which is really hard, but if you are able to, you know, work with your customer around understanding how are you driving their own business,
Experts of Experience
5 Customer Success Trends You Can’t Ignore in 2025
and tying to their own financials and their own growth, then you're able, again, to be embedded in their business and be able to articulate the value that you're providing. And I do believe that that is uniquely something that customer success can do. They can uniquely get into those insights.
Experts of Experience
5 Customer Success Trends You Can’t Ignore in 2025
It is hard. But it's also like if we think about it, and I recognize this is kind of going in a direction of more of an enterprise motion. There's definitely different considerations if you're talking about more of a high velocity motion or things like that. But there's a ton of value here, I think, in talking about this motion. The sales team can get that information during the sale.
Experts of Experience
5 Customer Success Trends You Can’t Ignore in 2025
They often can get, what's the business value? Let's put together a business case because someone at your customer is putting their neck on the line to make a purchase with you. And so the question is, how do we bridge that gap from the minute that decision is made to continue to track and have that value conversation once we...
Experts of Experience
5 Customer Success Trends You Can’t Ignore in 2025
have made that decision and afterwards, and then, you know, in subsequent years to come and how do we adjust it? Cause there are so many macro environments that are changing. The businesses are probably, and so that is the value that again, that I think is some of the value in how do we bridge that gap and how do we have those conversations in an ongoing regular way?
Experts of Experience
5 Customer Success Trends You Can’t Ignore in 2025
through success planning or executive business reviews? Or when we talk about AI, like putting some of that in the hands of your customers, how are you surfacing that information to them so that they're mutually engaging in their own success? And it makes sense for them to share that information. Like you don't want them to share the information
Experts of Experience
5 Customer Success Trends You Can’t Ignore in 2025
Because you're curious, but it really helps to tailor your interactions, you know, target your conversations, give them more personalized recommendations around what they should be doing. So if you can bridge that gap, improve that value, then I think there's an opportunity there.