Maggie Haberman
Appearances
The Daily
Partisan Taunts and Defiant Protests: Trump’s First Speech to Congress
Even as he takes away their power. Correct. Correct.
The Daily
Partisan Taunts and Defiant Protests: Trump’s First Speech to Congress
He talked again about how he wants to take over the Panama Canal.
The Daily
Partisan Taunts and Defiant Protests: Trump’s First Speech to Congress
And then he turned to Greenland, which he has been talking about wanting to acquire in some fashion for a while. We strongly support your right to determine your own future. And when he first started talking about Greenland, he actually sounded less bellicose and firm than he has in the past.
The Daily
Partisan Taunts and Defiant Protests: Trump’s First Speech to Congress
Republican members help walk in a Democratic president. This year, Democrats decided not to be part of that committee. So... Right away, this was a new moment. And newly partisan. And newly partisan. And there were other signs of Democratic protest. He's being applauded by Republicans who are, you know, trying to touch him as he's walking down the aisle. Most Democrats are refusing to stand.
The Daily
Partisan Taunts and Defiant Protests: Trump’s First Speech to Congress
He talked about wanting them to join the U.S. as if it was a choice, whereas in the past it's generally been, I'm going to get you. Right, perhaps even by military force. Right. But then he got to that point eventually anyway in the speech. And after going from sort of an invitation, it went to something much more declarative. And I think we're going to get it.
The Daily
Partisan Taunts and Defiant Protests: Trump’s First Speech to Congress
He starts out by saying he's working tirelessly to end this fight. And he looks over at the Democrats sitting in their section in the House chamber. He clearly believed that he was going to get some cheers for saying that he wanted to end the war. Did not. Did not. And then eyeballs the Democrats.
The Daily
Partisan Taunts and Defiant Protests: Trump’s First Speech to Congress
And then singles out Elizabeth Warren, who he consistently mocks as Pocahontas because she previously had claimed that she had Native American heritage. And he goes from that, sort of making fun of the Democrats, to being fairly conciliatory about President Zelensky of Ukraine.
The Daily
Partisan Taunts and Defiant Protests: Trump’s First Speech to Congress
He says he got a letter from Zelensky. I'm not actually clear that he got a letter or that he got a tweet, but either way, he's reading from a piece of paper.
The Daily
Partisan Taunts and Defiant Protests: Trump’s First Speech to Congress
It says that Ukraine is ready to come to the negotiating table as soon as possible to bring lasting peace closer. And it's notable because Trump had this extraordinary, unprecedented blowout, beat down of Zelensky by Trump and J.D. Vance in the Oval Office on Friday and then halting the aid.
The Daily
Partisan Taunts and Defiant Protests: Trump’s First Speech to Congress
Correct. And then getting a little bit of a concession from Zelensky on Tuesday. And that seemed to be enough for Trump to say, OK, we can go back to the table. And Trump clearly wants people to believe that when he makes a threat, he means it. So he turned off the aid, and the point seems to have been received by Zelensky, and we'll see where it goes.
The Daily
Partisan Taunts and Defiant Protests: Trump’s First Speech to Congress
Correct. And he's doing it in a way where he can show that he is starting again, but that it was Zelensky who bowed. And that is always very important to Trump.
The Daily
Partisan Taunts and Defiant Protests: Trump’s First Speech to Congress
Rough stuff. Trump starts talking about Mark Fogle, who was a Pennsylvania school teacher who had been imprisoned in Russia for a few years.
The Daily
Partisan Taunts and Defiant Protests: Trump’s First Speech to Congress
If any did. I didn't see any who did.
The Daily
Partisan Taunts and Defiant Protests: Trump’s First Speech to Congress
Trump's advisers helped secure his release. But Trump makes this pretty abrupt transition from talking about Mark Fogel.
The Daily
Partisan Taunts and Defiant Protests: Trump’s First Speech to Congress
Because he describes how he was talking to Fogel's mother at his rally, Trump's rally, in July of 2024 in Butler, Pennsylvania.
The Daily
Partisan Taunts and Defiant Protests: Trump’s First Speech to Congress
For the most part, yes. And it foretold a very, very intensely partisan night that was about to come.
The Daily
Partisan Taunts and Defiant Protests: Trump’s First Speech to Congress
And Trump proceeds to describe himself as saved by God. And this is a statement he made at various points during the campaign, but it reflects a belief that both he and his advisors have, which is that there is something divine about his victory. There's something divine about the fact that he was saved and that he is being swept back into office to save the country.
The Daily
Partisan Taunts and Defiant Protests: Trump’s First Speech to Congress
Correct. And you have a sitting president saying essentially everything that he said on the campaign trail repeatedly despite having won.
The Daily
Partisan Taunts and Defiant Protests: Trump’s First Speech to Congress
Yes, and certainly the longest. So after I was thinking about how long it was— It was the longest. I was thinking about how struck I was at how little forward-looking there was in this speech. There were a few things. But mostly it was a celebration of Trump, and it was a celebration of his last 40-some-odd days in office, and it was a celebration of all the things that he campaigned on in 2024.
The Daily
Partisan Taunts and Defiant Protests: Trump’s First Speech to Congress
But what that translates to for the rest of a presidency, let alone the rest of this year, was not answered in this speech.
The Daily
Partisan Taunts and Defiant Protests: Trump’s First Speech to Congress
Michael, thank you.
The Daily
Partisan Taunts and Defiant Protests: Trump’s First Speech to Congress
And there's huge cheers from Republicans. And Trump relives his election victory.
The Daily
Partisan Taunts and Defiant Protests: Trump’s First Speech to Congress
He claims falsely that his popular vote win was by a large margin. It was not. There was nothing historic about it other than that it happened.
The Daily
Partisan Taunts and Defiant Protests: Trump’s First Speech to Congress
Yes. And he does have a mandate. He just doesn't have the mandate that he keeps saying he does. But so at that moment, as he's declaring this, Democratic Congressman Al Green, who has been firmly against Trump for a very long time, stands up and he starts to heckle the president.
The Daily
Partisan Taunts and Defiant Protests: Trump’s First Speech to Congress
Right. This was Green continuing to stand, literally waving his cane, brandishing it almost as if it was a sword, essentially, and refusing to sit.
The Daily
Partisan Taunts and Defiant Protests: Trump’s First Speech to Congress
Despite repeated calls for him to do so by the House Speaker.
The Daily
Partisan Taunts and Defiant Protests: Trump’s First Speech to Congress
It was an astonishing moment. And what Greene was doing was astonishing, too. I mean, this was just a sustained protest in a chamber where decorum is valued. But both J.D.
The Daily
Partisan Taunts and Defiant Protests: Trump’s First Speech to Congress
Vance and House Speaker Mike Johnson, both of whom, because of their roles, were seated behind the president and standing at various points, were trying to get the sergeant-at-arms attention to have that person come and eject a sitting member of Congress, which is an uncomfortable moment.
The Daily
Partisan Taunts and Defiant Protests: Trump’s First Speech to Congress
That is exactly what ends up happening. And it gave Donald Trump a moment that he clearly wanted.
The Daily
Partisan Taunts and Defiant Protests: Trump’s First Speech to Congress
Trump was trying to set up this notion that whatever he does, Democrats are going to oppose it and therefore Democrats are unreasonable and bad actors. And again, this is his perspective. I'm just saying what he is trying to set up and that they are not going to endorse him no matter what.
The Daily
Partisan Taunts and Defiant Protests: Trump’s First Speech to Congress
Right. So from that moment, Trump begins to describe the version of America that he defeated in 2024 in his telling and the one that he's sweeping away. And it is one that, to use a word he uses often, is woke.
The Daily
Partisan Taunts and Defiant Protests: Trump’s First Speech to Congress
It's a pretty familiar list, Michael, for anyone who has listened to a Trump campaign speech. It's culture war issues.
The Daily
Partisan Taunts and Defiant Protests: Trump’s First Speech to Congress
It's men who have transitioned to be women playing in women's sports. That's a big one that he focuses on.
The Daily
Partisan Taunts and Defiant Protests: Trump’s First Speech to Congress
He focuses specifically on a young woman in the audience, Peyton McNabb.
The Daily
Partisan Taunts and Defiant Protests: Trump’s First Speech to Congress
Who was hit in the head with a spiked volleyball that was spiked by a transgender woman on the opposing team.
The Daily
Partisan Taunts and Defiant Protests: Trump’s First Speech to Congress
who apparently suffered a head injury because of it.
The Daily
Partisan Taunts and Defiant Protests: Trump’s First Speech to Congress
And he starts going through a list of programs, and it's long, that he says are programs that DOGE, Musk's effort, has identified as spending that Trump considers wasteful.
The Daily
Partisan Taunts and Defiant Protests: Trump’s First Speech to Congress
It's promoting efforts in Africa.
The Daily
Partisan Taunts and Defiant Protests: Trump’s First Speech to Congress
He sort of mocks the name of a country there. He mispronounces another country. He goes through this lengthy list and... $20 million for the Arab Sesame Street. It's very hard to know how accurate this list is because a lot of what has been put out there by Doge as their cost-cutting measures, some is accurate, some is not.
The Daily
Partisan Taunts and Defiant Protests: Trump’s First Speech to Congress
He does all of this to laughter by J.D. Vance behind him, by Mike Johnson behind him, by House members sitting on the Republican side of the aisle.
The Daily
Partisan Taunts and Defiant Protests: Trump’s First Speech to Congress
Correct. And not just the federal government, but the federal bureaucracy, which is composed of workers. And in some cases, there are his supporters among people working in this government. And he controls it and is going to have to figure out how to get people to respond to what he wants without sounding disdainful of them.
The Daily
Partisan Taunts and Defiant Protests: Trump’s First Speech to Congress
11.41, and thank you for having me.
The Daily
Partisan Taunts and Defiant Protests: Trump’s First Speech to Congress
That's right. And the neon sign blinking for that new government is tariffs.
The Daily
Partisan Taunts and Defiant Protests: Trump’s First Speech to Congress
He imposed major tariffs on goods from Mexico and goods from Canada.
The Daily
Partisan Taunts and Defiant Protests: Trump’s First Speech to Congress
Yeah, that's right. Less than 24 hours before the speech started. And he makes clear that he's not only doing those tariffs, but that come the beginning of April... This system is not fair to the United States and never was. And so on April 2nd... There is going to be tariffs essentially around the globe in the form of reciprocal tariffs.
The Daily
Partisan Taunts and Defiant Protests: Trump’s First Speech to Congress
That's right. And he goes specifically to talking about the agriculture community.
The Daily
Partisan Taunts and Defiant Protests: Trump’s First Speech to Congress
He describes himself as loving America's farmers.
The Daily
Partisan Taunts and Defiant Protests: Trump’s First Speech to Congress
But that group of people are really concerned about the tariffs that are coming. And Trump does acknowledge that there might be, quote, a little bit of an adjustment period.
The Daily
Partisan Taunts and Defiant Protests: Trump’s First Speech to Congress
As these tariffs go into place.
The Daily
Partisan Taunts and Defiant Protests: Trump’s First Speech to Congress
Yes. And he, Michael, I think truly believes that it will be short term.
The Daily
Partisan Taunts and Defiant Protests: Trump’s First Speech to Congress
I love you too. He is a huge believer in tariffs. He doesn't just see it as a tool. He sees it as a money making device for the country. And he believes, correctly or not, that the markets will correct and that things will ultimately be OK.
The Daily
Partisan Taunts and Defiant Protests: Trump’s First Speech to Congress
And from there, he goes on to the other major item in this new government that he's creating, and that is border security and cracking down on undocumented immigrants.
The Daily
Partisan Taunts and Defiant Protests: Trump’s First Speech to Congress
Border crossings. He says it's now the lowest in U.S. history. It's not clear that that's true, but it certainly is the lowest in about 25 years.
The Daily
Partisan Taunts and Defiant Protests: Trump’s First Speech to Congress
And he's clearly very proud of that and goes from that really to blaming Biden and Democrats for the situation that he says he inherited...
The Daily
Partisan Taunts and Defiant Protests: Trump’s First Speech to Congress
So, Michael, about 15 minutes after 9 p.m., The announcement goes out that the President of the United States is going to be walking in. Already, this is a different setting than we are used to for this kind of a speech because normally there is an escort committee. It's a bipartisan escort committee. Right. And Democrats help walk in the Republican president.
The Daily
Partisan Taunts and Defiant Protests: Trump’s First Speech to Congress
And he talks about how Biden and Democratic lawmakers had talked about a new border bill. And that is true. They did talk about it and they didn't get one done.
The Daily
Partisan Taunts and Defiant Protests: Trump’s First Speech to Congress
We just needed a new president.
The Daily
Partisan Taunts and Defiant Protests: Trump’s First Speech to Congress
That's true. And Trump has done so much by executive action. And that has meant just doing and runs around Congress, including taking actions that he is required legally to notify Congress about. And he's not doing it. And instead of objecting, you are just seeing these House members cheering him on.
The Daily
Partisan Taunts and Defiant Protests: Trump’s First Speech to Congress
We really don't get these living, breathing moments where you're not just reminded that the members of the House and Senate in the Republican Party are neutered, but they are endorsing the fact that they are neutered. Right. And are basically bowing to Trump.
The Daily
Trump 2.0 Arrives in Force
Look, I think the Kash Patel is going to see his role as different from FBI directors of the past, regardless of whether it's the version of the Senate hearings or the one on the podcasts. But the one on the podcast is the one who appealed to Donald Trump, which is why he appointed him. in this role.
The Daily
Trump 2.0 Arrives in Force
And so I would take seriously what Kash Patel has been saying about what he thinks the FBI should do and what should be done with people who he and Donald Trump perceive as Donald Trump's enemies. What is very striking is that Kash Patel is a loyalist who has been involved in producing a song with some of the people who were imprisoned in connection with the January 6th, 2021 attack on the Capitol.
The Daily
Trump 2.0 Arrives in Force
Producing a song? With Trump's voice. And Trump often brags about how it rose to the top of the Billboard charts.
The Daily
Trump 2.0 Arrives in Force
And as hostages in their telling. And most of those folks, the vast majority of those folks, have now been granted clemency. Right. That was one of Trump's first official acts. So what that does reveal is Kash Patel's mindset about how he sees the government against Donald Trump. I do want to make one point in fairness, Michael, and you started out asking about...
The Daily
Trump 2.0 Arrives in Force
Trump wanting to rid the government of anyone who might not be loyal to him. And that's certainly true. And we've heard all kinds of questions being asked about loyalty. It is a pretty capricious standard about who's getting chosen and who's not for some of these roles. But look, there were aspects of the federal bureaucracy that
The Daily
Trump 2.0 Arrives in Force
that was trying to stymie Trump's agenda or that disagreed with things he was doing or that tried to convince him otherwise in 2016 when he was a duly elected president. And so he does have reasons that he is unhappy with aspects of the government. This is taking things to an entirely different level.
The Daily
Trump 2.0 Arrives in Force
Well, I don't know what defined matter. I don't know that it would have any impact on other confirmations. This actually might be the vote that senators choose to sink a nominee because they approved others who were controversial, like Pete Hegseth, who was a 50-50 split, and that tie had to be settled by Vice President Vance.
The Daily
Trump 2.0 Arrives in Force
Correct. Presidents usually get their nominees through, but this just might be the line they draw.
The Daily
Trump 2.0 Arrives in Force
Eight days. So that was a rebellion that was maybe more... It was the rebellion that made some of the rest possible, and it was also what made Pete Hegseth such an important fight for Trump's folks.
The Daily
Trump 2.0 Arrives in Force
As Jonathan said, we made clear that Trump and his allies were looking for ways to maximize the executive branch's power and that they believe this is constitutional, that they are arguing that certain checks on it are not constitutional and that they were prepared to take their chances in court and see whether what they could get away with.
The Daily
Trump 2.0 Arrives in Force
Now, there was one blemish to that, which was this memo that went out from the Office of Management and Budget that froze congressionally approved funding for federal aid and grants across government and created mass confusion and ultimately was rescinded. So that was them testing the limits and not succeeding. That was the rare problem point for them.
The Daily
Trump 2.0 Arrives in Force
Everything else they have done, particularly as pertains to immigration, has worked the way they've wanted it to. Which is to say what? How has it worked? Which is to say that they have not been stymied by loud protests. They have had some court challenges that they expected, but those have just kind of gone on and workmanlike. fashion as opposed to the resistance that we saw in 2017.
The Daily
Trump 2.0 Arrives in Force
And they are hitting some numbers on arrests of migrants who they say have criminal records. And they are narrating that and making mugshots available and making public these numbers about the volume of people who they have arrested. And mostly, Michael, they're facing a pretty dampened Democratic pushback, especially compared to what we saw in 2020.
The Daily
Trump 2.0 Arrives in Force
It depends. I mean, Michael, I don't think in every single case that the Supreme Court is going to to Trump. But they do have a conservative supermajority, and that gives a lot of hope to Trump and his allies. I also just want to, and Jonathan should answer this question as well, but I do want to make one other point. Flooding the zone is everything.
The Daily
Trump 2.0 Arrives in Force
They are taking so many different actions that it is incredibly hard for the media and for his critics to keep up. And so you lobbed 10 shots and maybe two work. And for them, that feels like a win. But Jonathan probably has a better answer.
The Daily
Trump 2.0 Arrives in Force
Well, that's true. But the issue is the Congress is not really doing anything to push back, right? I mean, we have been on this path for some time. The two people who were the strongest oppositions to Trump in his first term in Congress were the Senate Majority Leader and the House Speaker, Paul Ryan. McConnell always maintained a difficult relationship with Trump.
The Daily
Trump 2.0 Arrives in Force
McConnell is not the leader anymore, and McConnell is actually somewhat marginalized. He can be an effective behind-the-scenes player, but he is not representative of where the majority of the Republican senators are. Most of them are very much aligned with Trump.
The Daily
Trump 2.0 Arrives in Force
If you have Republican majorities in both houses and they are not going to object when the White House does that and, in fact, are generally going to shrug, which is what we've seen, then, of course, Trump is going to take as much as these folks are going to give him. There's not a lot of pushback, and that's what Trump was counting on.
The Daily
Trump 2.0: Group Chats and a New Spat
Just to add to that, Michael, Trump has a long relationship with Pete Hegseth. Trump wanted to pick Pete Hegseth for his cabinet in a different role in the first term. It didn't work out for a variety of reasons. He doesn't really have a deep relationship with Mike Waltz. And that's important to bear in mind here.
The Daily
Trump 2.0: Group Chats and a New Spat
I think there was some story that was being told. It's not clear to me if it was by Waltz or by someone around Waltz, that he had been trying to add an aide, one of his own aides, and for whatever reason, Jeffrey Goldberg's number was under his aide's contact. Now, I've had people's numbers under the wrong name. in my phone before, but not somebody I work with closely.
The Daily
Trump 2.0: Group Chats and a New Spat
And so that seemed to be what he was talking about with the sucked in. To say that that story has not been given a lot of credence within the White House would be an understatement.
The Daily
Trump 2.0: Group Chats and a New Spat
Yes and yes. As you correctly observed, there is an ecosystem that exists now that goes into effect, that gives certain people antibodies and attacks a different organism. And so in this case— Hegseth has the antibodies. Hegseth and J.D. Vance and others on that chat. Mike Waltz does not. And so Trump— has been very reluctant to fire people this term.
The Daily
Trump 2.0: Group Chats and a New Spat
I say this term as if we're two years in, we're 60 days in or so. Right. But he really regretted firing Mike Flynn, his first national security advisor, after he did in his first term. Flynn only lasted, you know, a handful of weeks. He has tried to avoid doing that so far. This is described to me by a number of people in and outside of, close to the White House, as an unsustainable situation.
The Daily
Trump 2.0: Group Chats and a New Spat
So... And when things change remains to be seen, but there has been a steady drip, drip, drip. And Trump, as a number of people close to him have said to me, is never going to look at Mike Waltz the same way again. And once that happens, it's very hard to come back from.
The Daily
Trump 2.0: Group Chats and a New Spat
Obviously, anything is possible, but most people in the administration do not think that Mike Waltz is going to be able to continue on for a very long time. Mm-hmm.
The Daily
Trump 2.0: Group Chats and a New Spat
Yeah, but it's a narrow one because the attorney general signaled Thursday morning that where people really ought to be focusing their attention on is Joe Biden and on Hillary Clinton, and this is not going to be a focus for the Department of Justice.
The Daily
Trump 2.0: Group Chats and a New Spat
The closest that we've heard anyone come to that, Michael, is the Secretary of State, who said that somebody made a mistake. That, I think, is going to be the extent of what you hear, even if somebody else echoes that line from the White House. The thing Donald Trump hates more than Jeffrey Goldberg is apologizing.
The Daily
Trump 2.0: Group Chats and a New Spat
And so it's not really something you hear him do too often, especially without blaming someone else in the process. It's just not what they do. Every time he's facing a controversy. He doubles down on his original position. And that is what you're seeing here. And he tries to sustain that as long as he can. Now, I don't know how much longer he can sustain what he is doing.
The Daily
Trump 2.0: Group Chats and a New Spat
I think that's part of what we're talking about here. But it's just not in their DNA. And even if Mike Waltz does not survive this, you are not really going to hear the administration say, we are so sorry. You heard some version of this was a mistake and it won't happen again. That in and of itself is surprising for this White House.
The Daily
Trump 2.0: Group Chats and a New Spat
I think that will be a successful strategy from people who are already predisposed to believe that this president is right at all times. This story has penetrated the public consciousness in a way that no other story has in this administration so far, and it is going to leave questions for people about sloppiness and about recklessness and about truthfulness.
The Daily
Trump 2.0: Group Chats and a New Spat
And all of those can have longer-term effects, even if this one, this controversy disappears relatively quickly.
The Daily
Trump 2.0: Group Chats and a New Spat
The answer is yes to all three questions. Look, I didn't watch all of the hours of testimony that Tulsi Gabbard and John Ratcliffe gave, so I can't speak to the expanse of everything they said. But as I understand it, as I've read, as some of what you've described, they are adhering to this line that it was not classified. That is extremely hard to fathom. We don't know more than we know.
The Daily
Trump 2.0: Group Chats and a New Spat
But it's for all the reasons Eric and Julian said, it's hard to believe that. So I think that this is a line that is coming down from the White House, which is that They are going to insist this was not classified information and try to plow through and wait for the story to pass and wait for the storm to pass.
The Daily
Trump 2.0: Group Chats and a New Spat
Trump himself seemed to be moving a bit away from that on Wednesday when he said, you know, maybe it was classified. Who knows? But they have come to see and have leaned into the idea that there is nothing other than the courts that could hold them accountable. And they clearly are challenging that right now, too. So they are the law. They control the Justice Department.
The Daily
Trump 2.0: Group Chats and a New Spat
It's impossible to say whether Trump actually knows that it's classified, whether he's been told that it may have been classified at one point, or whether he's just trying to move on from the question. You're talking about somebody who likes to act surprised when he hears something, even if he knew it already in public.
The Daily
Trump 2.0: Group Chats and a New Spat
What he wants to do is move on from this as fast as possible and not get tangled up in a question from a reporter.
The Daily
Trump 2.0: Group Chats and a New Spat
Well, J.D. Vance was among the targets of the China hack.
The Daily
Trump 2.0: Group Chats and a New Spat
Just to step back for a second, Michael, on what Donald Trump understands about messaging apps and how these things work. He only started using text messages about two and a half years ago. He called sending texts, send a wire to someone for a very long time. I don't think he has any understanding of what Signal was until now. Right. So he's...
The Daily
Trump 2.0: Group Chats and a New Spat
First two questions were whether the mission was compromised, and the answer was no, clearly. But his other question was, why was Jeffrey Goldberg in there? And that gets to a bigger issue for Donald Trump, which really is not about the fact that there was sensitive attack planning discussions happening on a commercial messaging app.
The Daily
Trump 2.0: Group Chats and a New Spat
It was, why was someone in contact with this particular journalist who Donald Trump really doesn't like?
The Daily
Trump 2.0: Group Chats and a New Spat
He blames Mike Waltz, the national security advisor, because he's the one who set up the group chat. And his main question for aides has been, after condemning this as stupid, has been, does Mike Waltz talk to Jeffrey Goldberg? Trump is consumed with paranoia about leaks. And the idea that Jeff Goldberg's number would be in Mike Waltz's phone has been a preoccupying fact.
The Daily
Trump 2.0: The Art of the Deal
Yes. I mean, this is – look, in a long line of things that Donald Trump promised during the campaign and is doing, this is one. He made very clear that he did not support the aid to Ukraine. Trump also looks at all of these engagements through an economic lens. He does not look at them through – A foreign policy and the same way, you know, as some kind of a moral exercise.
The Daily
Trump 2.0: The Art of the Deal
He is looking at it as what is the best deal for the U.S. He sees Ukraine as a tiny country. Russia is obviously not the superpower it once was, but in Trump's mind, it looms much larger from its stature decades ago. And he sees more business opportunities for the country, as he has said. It's interesting.
The Daily
Trump 2.0: The Art of the Deal
Trump has been very focused and his aides have been very focused in the White House on trying to get through some kind of a bill through Congress that reflected what he campaigned on.
The Daily
Trump 2.0: The Art of the Deal
Correct. Trump has taken a number of executive actions. He's very proud of it. But you can't do everything that way. Spending has to get passed through Congress, at least in this form. So this House bill was sort of a half man, half horse of Trump's campaign promises.
The Daily
Trump 2.0: The Art of the Deal
There was a whole sideshow in the first term when Trump visited the UK and met with the royal family. And there were all these complaints about how he handled himself and some concerns by people around the royals that... They didn't care for how the Trump entourage was behaving and so forth. And that was all very much on the UK's terms.
The Daily
Trump 2.0: The Art of the Deal
This is all on Donald Trump's terms and using the British royal family, which Trump has been enchanted by since childhood, and he credits his mother for that, as a chit. And so this is absolutely a change in tone and a change in approach. And it is definitely a bending of the knee of some sorts. But it is also a reflection of how world leaders have, instead of bristling against Trump,
The Daily
Trump 2.0: The Art of the Deal
Trump trying to set the debate on his own terms are just essentially saying, eh, hell with it at this point. And that's pretty different than the first term. This is a recognition that Trump wants some kind of offering, and this one is pretty clever.
The Daily
Trump 2.0: The Art of the Deal
Well, one of them is probably more specific to the U.S. economy than the other, but yes.
The Daily
Trump 2.0: The Art of the Deal
This is where I come in. So one of the potential defectors, Victoria Spartz from Indiana, got a call from Trump or spoke to Trump. It's not clear to me who initiated the call. But he was really pressuring her, as we understand it, to vote for this bill. And at this moment, when the Republican Party is living in Congress, so fearful of Trump. So encroached upon.
The Daily
Trump 2.0: The Art of the Deal
And so afraid to go against him in any way. And he is making an example of anyone who does. This was a lot of pressure. Yeah.
The Daily
Trump 2.0: The Art of the Deal
debt so that it can cut taxes it's complicated michael and i i think look republicans have been complaining about debt and the deficit forever and under trump's term certainly it was added to uh you know so right and trump historically pushes things down the road he kicks the can down the road on what he's going to deal with and that creates a fraught situation especially for these members who are going to go back to their districts and have to explain all of this
The Daily
Trump 2.0: The Art of the Deal
I think you just answered your own question. I mean, essentially, Trump has separated out Russia and Ukraine from one another as he is saying that he is trying to negotiate a peace deal. He's got Russia at one table with the U.S. He's got Ukraine at another table with the U.S. A smaller table. Much smaller table. And with Ukraine, you know, Trump said it himself, and it's really true.
The Daily
Trump 2.0: The Art of the Deal
Ukraine basically has no cards to play. Trump has rejected the idea of NATO membership for Ukraine, and Trump also does not want to provide NATO membership. security guarantees for Ukraine. He wants Europe to do it, and that is going to require a heave of the will by Europeans, and we'll see what that looks like.
The Daily
Trump 2.0: The Art of the Deal
So the new deal that is being negotiated... Because the first one kind of got rejected? The first one was rejected, and then other iterations of it were rejected, and then the Commerce Secretary, Howard Lutnick, jumped in and Yeah, how do we get to a deal? So what is now there, because of various forces, is a smaller deal in terms of what the U.S. will get. Trump keeps saying $350 billion.
The Daily
Trump 2.0: The Art of the Deal
My understanding is the actual number is smaller than that. But it still does not include a security piece. And that was clearly a red line for Trump. And Zelensky clearly realizes that and is taking what he can get.
The Daily
Trump 2.0: Bans, Purges and Retribution
Can I just make one point, though? Please, Maggie. Trump is clearly betting because that is how it has played out almost every single time that he has been warned that something he was going to do was going to have adverse consequences for himself. He is betting that he can wait it out and the bad publicity will go away.
The Daily
Trump 2.0: Bans, Purges and Retribution
And I have to say that so far, based on the pretty muted reaction that I'm seeing, including from Republican lawmakers who had not just predicted that he wasn't going to do this, but in many cases had to run for their safety on January 6th, have said almost nothing. And so he tends to bet that public opinion will shift or change or at least not revolt against him. And
The Daily
Trump 2.0: Bans, Purges and Retribution
Yes, and they have already. This is not new. They did in the previous Congress, too. But this is going to be, I think, a different level of this than what we have heard before. Look, Michael, we know that Trump was very upset that President Biden issued preemptive pardons to people who worked on the House Select Committee investigating the lead up to January 6th and the day itself.
The Daily
Trump 2.0: Bans, Purges and Retribution
And so I think you will hear that as justification for why this is happening. But in reality, I suspect this was going to happen anyway.
The Daily
Trump 2.0: Bans, Purges and Retribution
Well, I think that's actually always been true. It's just that presidents have tended to try to abide by norms. I don't know that – and I have enormous respect for Ezra.
The Daily
Trump 2.0: Bans, Purges and Retribution
And he's not even here to defend himself. I'll send him an email saying the same thing. I don't know that I would describe this as sort of submission to the – New presidency, I think President Biden had enough agency that he didn't have to do something he said he wasn't going to do. And I think that people have to own their own choices.
The Daily
Trump 2.0: Bans, Purges and Retribution
And at a certain point, the broad excuse of I had to do X because Trump, I don't think has served Democrats especially well over the last eight years. Those pardons are not all the same. I've talked to a bunch of former Biden administration officials. most of whom felt as if the ones for Fauci and Mark Milley, they understood.
The Daily
Trump 2.0: Bans, Purges and Retribution
Those are both older men who were clearly going to be targeted in very specific ways. Mark Milley was risking getting recalled to active duty and court-martialed and all kinds of punishments like that. The House Select Committee preemptive pardons, most people I spoke to in the administration did not love them. The family member ones are the ones that people were very upset about.
The Daily
Trump 2.0: Bans, Purges and Retribution
I'm putting aside Hunter Biden, which most people in Biden's world defended. But the preemptive pardons for various members of Biden's family struck them as a misuse of that power.
The Daily
Trump 2.0: Bans, Purges and Retribution
Well, it was interesting. What Trump proceeded to talk about was alleged money-making by President Biden before he was president. He was accusing Biden of having taken in all kinds of money from work that his relatives were doing off his name, essentially. Again, prior to the presidency, Biden's been an
The Daily
Trump 2.0: Bans, Purges and Retribution
Putting that aside, Biden has the same immunity as President Trump has. You know, the Supreme Court last year in a case related to President Trump's first term said that presidents have broad immunity for acts committed while in office. But what President Trump was talking about were things predating the presidency.
The Daily
Trump 2.0: Bans, Purges and Retribution
And it does raise questions about whether he is going to try to push through some kinds of investigations. So far, the administration has taken a series of very aggressive actions against people it perceives to be Trump's enemies.
The Daily
Trump 2.0: Bans, Purges and Retribution
David was talking earlier about the risk that has been created for some people, potentially, with the freeing of certain January 6th planners or plotters in taking away people's security details. Trump is sending a pretty clear message to Iran that, you know, it may not bother him that much if something happens to these people. And that is what is alarming, folks.
The Daily
Trump 2.0: Bans, Purges and Retribution
The retribution is taking forms that people didn't expect it would. Trump, in whatever it was, March 2023, right before he was indicted for the first time, told his supporters at the Conservative Political Action Committee conference, I am your retribution. And so far, he is acting that way.
The Daily
Trump 2.0: Bans, Purges and Retribution
My sense is that it is actually not that gigantic a portion of the federal government, but it does exist in various pockets of agencies. It shouldn't be surprising. Trump did say all of this, as Nolan said, during the campaign. He is doing what he said he was going to do.
The Daily
Trump 2.0: Bans, Purges and Retribution
But what is striking is this climate of fear that has been created within the federal government to say not just are we getting rid of these programs, but we are looking for who might be trying to work against Donald Trump. And you should be afraid.
The Daily
Trump 2.0: Bans, Purges and Retribution
That's right. I think that's exactly right. Merit based has been something that we have heard repeatedly from Donald Trump, from other people in his new administration. And the idea is supposed to be that everybody starts out equal. And as you say, if you end up in a place that happens to be diverse, that's just because the people who rose were in Donald Trump's telling equipped for those roles.
The Daily
Trump 2.0: Bans, Purges and Retribution
However, what it does is ignore the notion that there is anything such as systemic racism or that people who are of color are have historically not been necessarily looked at the same way or given an equal shake or had the same opportunities. And it's not surprising to see that Donald Trump is enacting this plan, but it has been pretty sweeping.
The Daily
Trump 2.0: Bans, Purges and Retribution
So I would say a couple of things, Michael. Number one, there have been all kinds of bottlenecks for hiring for various places across the Trump administration because the loyalty tests that are being applied to prospective candidates are not just very intense and people are being asked a You know, how do you feel about January 6th, 2021?
The Daily
Trump 2.0: Bans, Purges and Retribution
But the perception of loyalty is completely dependent on how Donald Trump views it at any given moment. So he has all kinds of people in his government who have said critical things about him in the past, including his secretary of state, Marco Rubio, who ran against him in 2016, made fun of his hand size. But you have now people who can't be hired if they worked for Mike Pompeo. Who Trump hired?
The Daily
Trump 2.0: Bans, Purges and Retribution
And the secretary of state in his first administration. If you work for Mike Pompeo, you can't come in. If you work for Mike Pence, you can't come in. It goes on and on and on like this.
The Daily
Trump 2.0: Bans, Purges and Retribution
Correct. And whoever is whispering in Trump's ear about that other person at any given moment. Relatedly, he has stripped so far three that we know of former senior officials from his first term of security protection that the Biden administration had granted them based on intelligence community assessments of ongoing threats from Iran. Wow.
The Daily
Trump 2.0: Bans, Purges and Retribution
John Bolton, who was Trump's third national security advisor. Bolton's sin in Trump's eyes was writing a very detailed insider account of his time as national security advisor, did not paint Trump in a good light. He's been very critical of Trump since leaving. They have had a very, very extensive falling out. That one was not surprising, but it still put John Bolton at risk.
The Daily
Trump 2.0: Bans, Purges and Retribution
It's less easy to explain why he has such antipathy for Mike Pompeo, his second secretary of state, and another aide to Mike Pompeo from the State Department, Brian Hook. All these people have lost their security. Correct. They had a different type of security than Bolton did. Theirs was provided by the State Department. But nonetheless, they also faced real threats.
The Daily
Trump 2.0: Bans, Purges and Retribution
And again, they are facing these threats because of actions they took in the service of Donald Trump. And now Donald Trump is saying, you're on your own.
The Daily
Trump 2.0: Bans, Purges and Retribution
Yeah, that's correct. Look, Trump believes and he has in some cases reason to believe that people working within his government, career bureaucrats in his first term were working against his agenda. Right. Not just flagging concerns, but in other cases, actively trying to stop him from implementing certain policies that he had campaigned on and wanted. And he is the president.
The Daily
Trump 2.0: Bans, Purges and Retribution
He is able to do that. That's different than this, which is we don't want any hint of independence or independent thinking or you're at suspicion because you may have said X, Y, Z. This is just something totally different. And, you know, we talked about McCarthy earlier. McCarthy's protege was Roy Cohn and Roy Cohn, the fixer and lawyer, was Donald Trump's mentor.
The Daily
Trump 2.0: Bans, Purges and Retribution
Not just ferret them out, but make them afraid of what might happen to them if they don't go along with what he wants.
The Daily
Trump 2.0: Bans, Purges and Retribution
I think Trump was well aware of what he was doing. I know based on reporting that we have all done that there was extensive conversation within his world about what the options were for releasing various people. There were at least two executive orders drafted as to what types of pardon therapy there was a discussion about.
The Daily
Trump 2.0: Bans, Purges and Retribution
Do you exclude the people who were convicted of seditious conspiracy, for instance? Trump's team is well aware that there were people who were convicted or caught on video beating up police officers. Trump himself had said during the campaign, as a way of avoiding getting pinned down on this, that he was going to go on a case-by-case basis. And I don't think he was ever convicted.
The Daily
Trump 2.0: Bans, Purges and Retribution
I think that he went in the direction that he always wanted to go in. Could he recite chapter and verse what everybody was convicted of? No. But I think he has pretty clear understanding of the depth of the criminality described.
The Daily
Why a Worrisome Economy Doesn’t Seem to Worry Trump
So I think there are a few reasons for that. He believes in tariffs, not just as an economic tool, but as a good in and of themselves, as a revenue raiser, as a market corrector. He has been talking about tariffs since the 1980s. He has had this mantra about applying tariffs on countries, quote unquote, ripping us off forever. So that's one. The other is he does see them as a tool.
The Daily
Why a Worrisome Economy Doesn’t Seem to Worry Trump
He also thinks that they are a way to impact other countries' behavior, and not just economically, but across a bunch of sectors. Fentanyl in Mexico. Correct. But he's also mindful, and we had a lot of conversations with people about this, of not looking like a paper tiger. He does not want to be perceived as an empty suit on this.
The Daily
Why a Worrisome Economy Doesn’t Seem to Worry Trump
He knows leaders in Europe and elsewhere are watching what he does on this, and so he does not want to look weak.
The Daily
Why a Worrisome Economy Doesn’t Seem to Worry Trump
At least not so far, Michael. You are absolutely correct that this is a much broader scale of tariffs than what he tried doing in the first term. And I think part of this is because he learned some lessons that may have been the wrong ones from the first term.
The Daily
Why a Worrisome Economy Doesn’t Seem to Worry Trump
So in term one, he had a group of advisors who were often at odds with each other about economic policy, but he had some really strong anti-tariff voices. Trump would suggest some version of an expansive tariff, and his... Anti-tariff economic advisers would strenuously object and push back very aggressively. And Trump would then reverse course and back off of that.
The Daily
Why a Worrisome Economy Doesn’t Seem to Worry Trump
Trump's lesson appears to have been things didn't go that badly. The market didn't crash completely. Joe Biden kept some tariffs on in terms of China. My advisers were wrong. Tariffs are good and I can go bigger this time. But it was a very different economy then. It was a much more thriving economy. It was a pre-coronavirus pandemic economy, among other things.
The Daily
Why a Worrisome Economy Doesn’t Seem to Worry Trump
It is kind of apples and oranges in a very different economy.
The Daily
Why a Worrisome Economy Doesn’t Seem to Worry Trump
There is a clear understanding in the administration that there is some whipsawing going on. So there was this meeting a week ago about how to handle the messaging at the Naval Observatory, which is the vice president's residence. And there was Howard Lutnick, the commerce secretary, Susie Wiles, the White House chief of staff, Jameson Greer, the U.S. trade representative, among others.
The Daily
Why a Worrisome Economy Doesn’t Seem to Worry Trump
Some big shots. Big shots, very important voices in this discussion. And as we understand it, it was about dealing with the messaging and explaining to the public what is happening, trying to better explain what the tariffs are, when they might be coming. I haven't seen much evidence that that yielded a change in approach.
The Daily
Why a Worrisome Economy Doesn’t Seem to Worry Trump
Correct. And... They are never really able to say the problem is partly stemming from the top. So it has to be how does the lower tier of people just below him deal with this when they're talking to television cameras and to reporters as opposed to saying the president is saying things that are complicated and convoluted.
The Daily
Why a Worrisome Economy Doesn’t Seem to Worry Trump
It's an untenable position. And the two people who are out there the most talking about this tariff program are two financiers, Howard Lutnick, the Commerce Secretary, and Scott Besant, the Treasury Secretary. And so they are describing an economic program that clearly has not been their lifelong economic exposure and project. Right.
The Daily
Why a Worrisome Economy Doesn’t Seem to Worry Trump
And so there are inherent contradictions, as you said, in what they are trying to tell the public they should take from this. And I don't really see that resolving anytime soon.
The Daily
Why a Worrisome Economy Doesn’t Seem to Worry Trump
Right. And to be fair to them and to the president, the president's agenda is the agenda. Right. And if you're going to serve a president, you should be expected that you're going to be asked to defend their policies. But often, and particularly with Lutnick, the conversation in interviews swings to the president's a genius.
The Daily
Why a Worrisome Economy Doesn’t Seem to Worry Trump
You know, he knows exactly what he's doing, which doesn't do much to assuage the markets or concerned voters.
The Daily
Why a Worrisome Economy Doesn’t Seem to Worry Trump
The president thinks the experts are wrong, which is what the president has thought on a number of fronts. And again, to be fair to him, he has been shown in very specific circumstances that that has been true. That can be true. It can be true.
The Daily
Why a Worrisome Economy Doesn’t Seem to Worry Trump
And maybe his own poll numbers will be impacted to such an extent, his approval numbers will be impacted to such an extent that he changes course, that he takes a dramatic action of some kind. This is definitely a concern for his advisors who are worried about
The Daily
Why a Worrisome Economy Doesn’t Seem to Worry Trump
The impact on his political standing, which at the moment they don't blame on voter response to tariffs and they don't even really blame it on the stock market reaction. They think that the ongoing nature of elevated consumer prices, eggs, so forth, is what is hurting Trump. That may not be the case forever. But Trump so far has not seen anything that has convinced him that he is wrong.
The Daily
Why a Worrisome Economy Doesn’t Seem to Worry Trump
And Trump is making, Michael, this enormous gamble. Right. It really is. Yes. On his economic policy and on the idea that everybody else is wrong. And Trump makes these massive gambles. Sometimes they really don't work out for him. Sometimes they do. And he takes those moments as affirmation that he was correct all along.
The Daily
Why a Worrisome Economy Doesn’t Seem to Worry Trump
To some extent, I don't think the entirety of it, but certainly the short-term economic picture and possibly the long-term, he is waging an enormous bet that his view of the economy is going to be correct in the face, to your point, of almost everyone's expert opinion as to why this approach is risky. So this has been very confusing for people to figure out what exactly the endgame is.
The Daily
Why a Worrisome Economy Doesn’t Seem to Worry Trump
So, Michael, I think that there will be competing impulses at play in Donald Trump's head as he is grappling with this. On the one hand... He is going to want to stick to his guns. This is something I think he does believe in. And I think he's going to want to show the experts that he's right.
The Daily
Why a Worrisome Economy Doesn’t Seem to Worry Trump
On the other, there is an external reality, which is that he is not on the ballot again, but his party is.
The Daily
Why a Worrisome Economy Doesn’t Seem to Worry Trump
In the next midterms. And the Republicans have a very, very narrow majority in the House. Trump and his advisers are extremely aware that if they lose the midterms, the number of investigations and subpoenas that they will face from a Democratic House will be vast. And that's not something they want to spend the final two years of his term dealing with.
The Daily
Why a Worrisome Economy Doesn’t Seem to Worry Trump
And appearing to seem as if you don't hear voters' concerns about them.
The Daily
Why a Worrisome Economy Doesn’t Seem to Worry Trump
So Trump might be willing to gamble on the country's future economically, but I think he's far less willing to gamble with his own political fortunes.
The Daily
Ring-Kissing, Lawsuits and a Looming Shutdown
So this is like the purest form of delight Trump could have, is all of these wealthiest people in the world, Bezos, Elon Musk, a bunch of tech leaders, coming and seeking his favor. And it's not just tech leaders, Michael. You know, he had Justin Trudeau troop down to Mar-a-Lago, only to be called a governor by Trump, who was describing Canada as the 51st state.
The Daily
Ring-Kissing, Lawsuits and a Looming Shutdown
This is different than what Trump's 2016 inauguration and lead up in his transition was like. Trump was also facing an investigation at the time into whether his campaign had ties to Russians. And Russia had, according to the intelligence community, meddled in the 2016 election to try to hurt Hillary Clinton. And so all of that made a different atmosphere.
The Daily
Ring-Kissing, Lawsuits and a Looming Shutdown
But Trump likes nothing more than a convert. And all of these tech leaders are showing that they have seen the value and wisdom of what he – has been saying. And Michael, his 2016 win was entirely unexpected and it was also pretty close. Right. This was pretty decisive. And it's really hard for people to keep describing him as a fluke. He's not the interregnum. Joe Biden was.
The Daily
Ring-Kissing, Lawsuits and a Looming Shutdown
It is a fact. Donald Trump is a very transactional person. He's pretty open about that fact. He's what people in New York used to call a deals guy. So that is how he views the world. On the part of some people who are reaching out to him, there is clearly a fear that he is going to use what levers of power he has to try to enforce – against them.
The Daily
Ring-Kissing, Lawsuits and a Looming Shutdown
But there is a belief that it is more helpful to them to have a relationship with him than not. And it's not an entirely new attitude, Michael. There were actually a lot of people who had that attitude in the first term. The difference between Trump 1 and Trump 2 is that some of the—and I noticed this in just talking to voters, frankly—some of the stigma of backing Trump
The Daily
Ring-Kissing, Lawsuits and a Looming Shutdown
has abated a bit, the social stigma. And so I think that a lot of these CEOs who were concerned about backlash from their consumers are far less worried now.
The Daily
Ring-Kissing, Lawsuits and a Looming Shutdown
I think Andrew is correct about the complexities here. This was a case where George Stephanopoulos on ABC News in a segment with Nancy Mace, who is a congresswoman and a sexual assault survivor. Stephanopoulos in his segment said multiple times that Trump had been found liable for rape by a jury. This was after Trump was found guilty. liable for sexual abuse in a civil suit.
The Daily
Ring-Kissing, Lawsuits and a Looming Shutdown
E. Jean Carroll, a New York writer, had accused him of rape decades earlier, but the jury did not find him liable for rape. They did for sexual abuse. The Trump team asked for a correction. They didn't get a correction. And then they filed suit in Florida. And so the Trump case, which was filed with a judge who was allowing it to move forward,
The Daily
Ring-Kissing, Lawsuits and a Looming Shutdown
alleged that Trump had suffered damage to his reputation from the statements that Stephanopoulos had made and that Stephanopoulos had gotten it wrong.
The Daily
Ring-Kissing, Lawsuits and a Looming Shutdown
Protection against libel when it involves a public figure. That's what we're talking about.
The Daily
Ring-Kissing, Lawsuits and a Looming Shutdown
Certainly the earliest days, Michael, of the pre-second Trump term have been really solid for him. It's about as good as it could have been. You know, at the same time, he is coming in when there are various crises across the world and consumer prices are still high. And so he faces a lot of challenges and he has made a number of significant promises that he is going to have to
The Daily
Ring-Kissing, Lawsuits and a Looming Shutdown
eventually make good on in order for voters to feel as if things are moving along but for now yes this is what he always thought it was going to be in 2016 when he won and it never was and that's very clear in almost all of his actions right now katie when it comes to congress i mean he has to feel very good about his ability to command obedience
The Daily
Ring-Kissing, Lawsuits and a Looming Shutdown
Donald Trump does not need goosing or juicing to be against this particular bill, at least publicly. The question is not which one of them got the other riled up. They clearly got each other riled up. The question is, what did Trump actually know about what was in this bill before this all started? There are things in this bill that he wasn't going to like.
The Daily
Ring-Kissing, Lawsuits and a Looming Shutdown
And that, I think, should have been pretty clear to Mike Johnson. So... Elon Musk and Donald Trump were going to, I think, both arrive at this place pretty naturally. This is not one following the other.
The Daily
Ring-Kissing, Lawsuits and a Looming Shutdown
And now Trump is very dramatically taking the lead and gave a bunch of interviews to television reporters on Thursday morning saying various versions of why this bill shouldn't exist and why maybe Mike Johnson shouldn't be the speaker if he can't push through what Trump wants.
The Daily
Ring-Kissing, Lawsuits and a Looming Shutdown
Right. I mean, look, I think it is true that he, that is what he thinks. Whether he's right or not, Michael, I mean, you know, Trump forced a shutdown when he was president. And he was pretty surprised that he ended up getting blame for it. But Trump doesn't suffer a ton of durable blame. I think that most voters are fairly tuned out right now.
The Daily
Ring-Kissing, Lawsuits and a Looming Shutdown
If there's a shutdown and people are not getting paid, they are going to blame Trump. In part, they'll blame President Biden-ish, but really they're going to blame House Republicans because that's who's going to take the fault. And Trump will just point it back to them. I don't think it's going to have a meaningful difference.
The Daily
Ring-Kissing, Lawsuits and a Looming Shutdown
I don't think it's helpful, though, for Republicans who are entering with unified control, Congress, Senate, the White House, just as they did in 2017, to begin this way with this kind of chaos. Is there a world in which...
The Daily
Ring-Kissing, Lawsuits and a Looming Shutdown
We are going to get to a point where Trump has been doing a lot of promises made, promises kept. But the promises made, promises kept so far are about the kinds of appointees he wants to make or his vows of trying to curtail the media and so forth and so on. Those are not things that impact voters' daily lives.
The Daily
Ring-Kissing, Lawsuits and a Looming Shutdown
And to Katie's point, once we start getting to whether people's daily lives are impacted positively or not by him, that's what his presidency will ride or die on.
The Daily
Trump 2.0: Musk in the Oval, a Gift to Mayor Adams and a Win for Putin
And not only will I do that, but I am going to do it all out in the open. These are not backroom conversations. This is we are doing this and this is how I'm going to go about it. And it doesn't really bother me if it bothers you, because unless you can stop me, I'm going to do it.
The Daily
Trump 2.0: Musk in the Oval, a Gift to Mayor Adams and a Win for Putin
It's like a Mission Impossible movie.
The Daily
Trump 2.0: Musk in the Oval, a Gift to Mayor Adams and a Win for Putin
You answered your question because his interest is not in preserving what Ukraine wants. He is much more interested in forging a durable relationship between the U.S. and Russia. He is very interested in his personal relationship with Putin. To be clear about this, he is very obsessed with nuclear war and nuclear capabilities. And this has been one of his obsessions about Russia for years.
The Daily
Trump 2.0: Musk in the Oval, a Gift to Mayor Adams and a Win for Putin
There was one piece of leverage he did not give away. And he was open about it, which is that he's going to continue providing aid to Ukraine because he does recognize that there is leverage there. Interesting. But he also put some conditions on it.
The Daily
Trump 2.0: Musk in the Oval, a Gift to Mayor Adams and a Win for Putin
And so it's not a total giveaway of all the chits, but he is making clear that he believes that this will arrive at a faster place and a place that he can live with. And he is a skeptic of Zelensky and he is a skeptic of Ukraine. And he has been very clear about that for a long time.
The Daily
Trump 2.0: Musk in the Oval, a Gift to Mayor Adams and a Win for Putin
For foreign policy. For foreign policy.
The Daily
Trump 2.0: Musk in the Oval, a Gift to Mayor Adams and a Win for Putin
It was pretty remarkable, Michael. Elon Musk joined Donald Trump in the Oval Office with Elon Musk's four-year-old child named X, just like the social media website that used to be Twitter that Elon Musk has renamed. And it was for an executive order signing related to how Doge, Musk's so-called cost-cutting initiative, interacts with the hiring process in the federal government.
The Daily
Trump 2.0: Musk in the Oval, a Gift to Mayor Adams and a Win for Putin
That's part of it, but he's doing that because he likes the way Vladimir Putin rules, which is, as he would say, about a range of people with an iron fist. That is what he likes. That is what appeals to him. So that is why he is giving that deference. I think Zolan is exactly right, and I would just add that this is where –
The Daily
Trump 2.0: Musk in the Oval, a Gift to Mayor Adams and a Win for Putin
the leverage over whomever comes into play, and this is how our Eric Adams conversation relates to this, Trump is showing all of these foreign leaders that he will do these kinds of things at home too. He will do these kinds of things within the U.S. He will try to make his strength known locally, even though there is supposed to be some level of autonomy within states.
The Daily
Trump 2.0: Musk in the Oval, a Gift to Mayor Adams and a Win for Putin
But yes, I do think that there is a growingly visible imperialism I personally don't think Donald Trump is any different than he was in his first term. He just happens to actually understand more about where levers are. But this was hidden from view, this side of him, and his impulses were curbed by a number of advisors. It goes back to now it is just all hanging out there because he can.
The Daily
Trump 2.0: Musk in the Oval, a Gift to Mayor Adams and a Win for Putin
Mr. President, why should the king take in the Palestinian people? He's made clear he doesn't want to.
The Daily
Trump 2.0: Musk in the Oval, a Gift to Mayor Adams and a Win for Putin
And Trump really just turned it over to Musk. And Musk just held forth for many, many minutes. I think it was much of the roughly 30-minute event. And he described what he's doing. He kept talking about all of the so-called fraud and waste and abuse that he says they have found.
The Daily
Trump 2.0: Musk in the Oval, a Gift to Mayor Adams and a Win for Putin
One hundred percent. The dynamics might be a little bit different, but the basic through line is the same with both the Eric Adams case and that meeting with King Abdullah and what Trump is trying to extract from him, which is I want something and you are reliant on me. In Abdullah's case, it is aid. Right. Billions of dollars a year that the U.S. gives to Jordan. Correct.
The Daily
Trump 2.0: Musk in the Oval, a Gift to Mayor Adams and a Win for Putin
In Eric Adams' case, it is his freedom. He is going to apply pressure and he's going to do it pretty plainly.
The Daily
Trump 2.0: Musk in the Oval, a Gift to Mayor Adams and a Win for Putin
You are hitting on a very important dynamic with Trump. And this one has been consistent for a very long time, if not forever. Everything is zero sum. Everything is zero sum. There are clear winners. There are clear losers. And so everything with Trump is a maximalist position. And then he sees, you know, if he has to even walk things back in a different direction.
The Daily
Trump 2.0: Musk in the Oval, a Gift to Mayor Adams and a Win for Putin
The most striking allegation for which he provided no evidence and still has not as far as I know was that some government workers were taking kickbacks. Right. That they were getting percentages. I believe it was specifically of USAID spending. But Trump was relegated to sort of a spectator.
The Daily
Trump 2.0: Musk in the Oval, a Gift to Mayor Adams and a Win for Putin
Thank you, Michael, and honored to be here with you for it.
The Daily
Trump 2.0: Musk in the Oval, a Gift to Mayor Adams and a Win for Putin
in his own office, just sitting at the desk and nodding and occasionally chiming in and criticizing judges. And what was really striking about it, Michael, is that it looked to those of us who have watched him for a long time as if Trump was not enjoying this. I talked to a number of his advisors afterwards. They said he was fine with it.
The Daily
Trump 2.0: Musk in the Oval, a Gift to Mayor Adams and a Win for Putin
You think Democrats are afraid to talk to Trump voters?
The Daily
Trump 2.0: Musk in the Oval, a Gift to Mayor Adams and a Win for Putin
They said that he, and I don't think that they're making it up. I think that he was defending his guy, Elon Musk, who has gone above and beyond in many ways to try to prove loyalty to Trump. And Trump really likes having the richest man in the world seeking his approval.
The Daily
Trump 2.0: Musk in the Oval, a Gift to Mayor Adams and a Win for Putin
I think that – well, at least there may be evidence, but they have not shared it with us. Number one, it's Donald Trump's default setting is to call things corrupt when he doesn't like them, to call things corrupt when they disagree with him. I do think that Trump is very radicalized about the government he is leading. I think that has happened since –
The Daily
Trump 2.0: Musk in the Oval, a Gift to Mayor Adams and a Win for Putin
the investigations into him in his first term, I think since the multiple criminal indictments he faced, all of the civil cases that he faced. I do think that Trump's contempt for the federal government is genuine. But Trump comes historically from a period in time and a place, New York, 1960s, 70s, 80s, that was run by machine politics, where lots of aspects of government and
The Daily
Trump 2.0: Musk in the Oval, a Gift to Mayor Adams and a Win for Putin
Frankly, some aspects of the media, some aspects of the real estate industry were tinged with corruption. And Trump's sort of basic belief, and we hear him articulate this in various ways, is everything is a little corrupt. And he is suggesting in this case it's a lot.
The Daily
Trump 2.0: Musk in the Oval, a Gift to Mayor Adams and a Win for Putin
Oh, 100%. I think the way you just described it is exactly it. Is Musk showing some level of dutiful obligation to Donald Trump? There's no question. And to that point, I would just add a sort of remarkable point that emerged this week. The Wall Street Journal first reported it and we confirmed it. X, which is owned by Musk, settled for multi-million dollars. We don't know the exact figure.
The Daily
Trump 2.0: Musk in the Oval, a Gift to Mayor Adams and a Win for Putin
It's somewhere in the area of $10 million. A lawsuit that Trump had brought against the site when it was Twitter owned by other people when his account was banned after January 6, 2021. So essentially the site, and I don't know exactly how the finances of X work in terms of Musk's ownership, et cetera, but this is his website, and it has now paid Donald Trump. Huh. a substantial amount of money.
The Daily
Trump 2.0: Musk in the Oval, a Gift to Mayor Adams and a Win for Putin
Happy Valentine's Day, Michael.
The Daily
Trump 2.0: Musk in the Oval, a Gift to Mayor Adams and a Win for Putin
And Trump could have said, you know, let's not do that.
The Daily
Trump 2.0: Musk in the Oval, a Gift to Mayor Adams and a Win for Putin
Happy to spend it with you.
The Daily
Trump 2.0: Musk in the Oval, a Gift to Mayor Adams and a Win for Putin
Right. That's not what happened, evidently.
The Daily
Trump 2.0: Musk in the Oval, a Gift to Mayor Adams and a Win for Putin
One of his companies did, yes.
The Daily
Trump 2.0: Musk in the Oval, a Gift to Mayor Adams and a Win for Putin
Michael, there are so many inputs as how we got here, so I will just try to do the short version.
The Daily
Trump 2.0: Musk in the Oval, a Gift to Mayor Adams and a Win for Putin
I can think of one person. I can, too.
The Daily
Trump 2.0: Musk in the Oval, a Gift to Mayor Adams and a Win for Putin
I appreciate you, and you'll let me know if I don't get there. Eric Adams was indicted on corruption charges in September of 2024. The basics for bribery involves airline ticket upgrades and essentially a quid pro quo with a foreign government, Turkey in particular. Right. Trump started talking in December about possibly pardoning Adams.
The Daily
Trump 2.0: Musk in the Oval, a Gift to Mayor Adams and a Win for Putin
He had treated Adams as a fellow traveler in what Trump calls the weaponized justice system, and he's been very clear about that. Adams has also started trying to forge a very clear relationship with Trump. He went down to Palm Beach to meet with him.
The Daily
Trump 2.0: Musk in the Oval, a Gift to Mayor Adams and a Win for Putin
And in January, the SDNY, the prosecutors in Manhattan, federal prosecutors, filed a court filing saying that they had uncovered evidence of additional criminal conduct by Adams. That signaled there could be more charges filed that could be more serious. Trump clearly does not think the charges against Adams as they are now are serious. And earlier this week,
The Daily
Trump 2.0: Musk in the Oval, a Gift to Mayor Adams and a Win for Putin
The acting deputy attorney general, who is one of Donald Trump's many personal lawyers and is now in that role, directed the Southern District to dismiss the case, drop the charges. It does require a judge doing it, but also said that they would leave open a review of the case until after the November 2025 mayoral election. Right. It's not dead. It's just not happening right now.
The Daily
Trump 2.0: Musk in the Oval, a Gift to Mayor Adams and a Win for Putin
As they say in that memo, it has impeded Adams' ability to do his job, including helping on their immigration crackdown in New York.
The Daily
Trump 2.0: Musk in the Oval, a Gift to Mayor Adams and a Win for Putin
Which they say is not, by the way, to be clear.
The Daily
Trump 2.0: Musk in the Oval, a Gift to Mayor Adams and a Win for Putin
They explicitly said that they weren't making this decision based on the evidence, in fact, which was extraordinary.
The Daily
Trump 2.0: Musk in the Oval, a Gift to Mayor Adams and a Win for Putin
It's also worth noting that Eric Adams' lawyer is also Elon Musk's lawyer, Alex Spiro.
The Daily
Trump 2.0: A Criminal Sentencing, Presidential Legacies, and Greenland
Yeah, this has been a huge subject within the White House and on Capitol Hill. And it really did, as I understand it, originate from Capitol Hill. There are a lot of members of Congress who are concerned that the way he often frames it is this person should be investigated.
The Daily
Trump 2.0: A Criminal Sentencing, Presidential Legacies, and Greenland
Now, I just want to point out, because Trump's people often do, he told me at the press, you know, that he wasn't going to direct the DOJ on what to do. And maybe that will be true and maybe it won't be true, but it almost doesn't need to be true because they know what he wants. Right. And they know what he'd like to see done.
The Daily
Trump 2.0: A Criminal Sentencing, Presidential Legacies, and Greenland
So these folks are worried about being targeted for trying to hold Trump accountable for things like trying to stay in office after losing an election or— Here talking about Liz Cheney.
The Daily
Trump 2.0: A Criminal Sentencing, Presidential Legacies, and Greenland
Liz Cheney, for instance, or Benny Thompson, who co-chaired the J6 committee with her, or Anthony Fauci, who is a top infectious diseases official in government for decades, who... Including during the Trump administration. And incurred a lot of anger for his coronavirus era recommendations. People can take issue with some of the recommendations without suggesting he somehow committed a crime.
The Daily
Trump 2.0: A Criminal Sentencing, Presidential Legacies, and Greenland
And that's where that leap goes. But if you accept a pardon, you are acknowledging some level of wrongdoing. And these folks... generally don't believe they did anything wrong, number one. Number two, the challenge for the Biden White House is where is the line? Where do you stop?
The Daily
Trump 2.0: A Criminal Sentencing, Presidential Legacies, and Greenland
Can I just make one point real quick, Michael, in terms of what Zolan is saying? He is reflecting, but he's reflecting on what he believes he was denied.
The Daily
Trump 2.0: A Criminal Sentencing, Presidential Legacies, and Greenland
He's not reflecting on mistakes that he made or how the White House handled questions about his age or the fact that large numbers of reporters were attacked on social media and elsewhere for raising questions that were taking place in front of their eyes. Right.
The Daily
Trump 2.0: A Criminal Sentencing, Presidential Legacies, and Greenland
And to deliver the statement of, yes, I could have won, but who knows if I – I can't say for sure if I could have served the whole four years, that's a pretty astonishing statement.
The Daily
Trump 2.0: A Criminal Sentencing, Presidential Legacies, and Greenland
Sure. So President-elect Trump's lawyers filed a request for the Supreme Court to stop Trump's scheduled sentencing on felony falsifying business records that related to a payment to a porn star who said she'd had an affair with Trump. Right. We think of this as the hush money case. The hush money case. And the sentencing was scheduled by New York Justice Juan Merchan for January 10th.
The Daily
Trump 2.0: A Criminal Sentencing, Presidential Legacies, and Greenland
I didn't get to hear most of the eulogies, Michael, but from what I saw visually, what was striking was Mike Pence sitting almost directly behind Donald Trump, and they shook hands at one point. I don't think they have seen each other in person since they left office.
The Daily
Trump 2.0: A Criminal Sentencing, Presidential Legacies, and Greenland
And Trump has since said, well, those people were angry, you know, the mob at the Capitol of his supporters in explaining somewhat justifying why they would be saying such things. The other thing that really struck me was just this what looked like moments of levity. I don't know if it was pretend or not between President Obama and President Trump who were sitting next to each other.
The Daily
Trump 2.0: A Criminal Sentencing, Presidential Legacies, and Greenland
I noticed those as well. You know, these are two men who, the one who is about to be president for a second time, rose to prominence in the Republican Party by questioning the legitimacy of the former president.
The Daily
Trump 2.0: A Criminal Sentencing, Presidential Legacies, and Greenland
Was he born in the United States? Right. Was he truly born in the U.S.? It was really striking, especially because Obama was quite pointed about Donald Trump during this last campaign in a way that he generally hadn't been. We're going to slide in and out of sort of Washington routine and normalcy at certain points. And then there's going to be how Trump does things.
The Daily
Trump 2.0: A Criminal Sentencing, Presidential Legacies, and Greenland
That is not how things have usually been done. And today was just a stark reminder of that.
The Daily
Trump 2.0: A Criminal Sentencing, Presidential Legacies, and Greenland
When this runs, Friday morning. Right. Now, it's worth bearing in mind, Michael, that part of why this sentencing has not happened yet is because Trump's legal team has repeatedly requested delays over and over and over again. And Merchan's feeling is it needs to happen at a certain point for closure and respect for the jury verdict and so forth and so on.
The Daily
Trump 2.0: A Criminal Sentencing, Presidential Legacies, and Greenland
He has refused their request to dismiss the case outright. The Trump team is not surprisingly using every avenue they can to try to delay it.
The Daily
Trump 2.0: A Criminal Sentencing, Presidential Legacies, and Greenland
Legally, it's the presidential immunity argument, and it's going to be up to the justices to decide whether in their previous ruling about how presidents have pretty broad immunity for acts committed while in office, whether this would technically apply. There is the question, and I do think that some of the justices may feel this pull of,
The Daily
Trump 2.0: A Criminal Sentencing, Presidential Legacies, and Greenland
whether an incoming president should be facing a hearing where even though the judge in the case has signaled that he's going to give Trump an unconditional discharge, meaning no penalties, no jail times, no anything, no home confinement, it is onerous to go into office that way. And that's not really a legal argument. It's more a respect for the presidency argument.
The Daily
Trump 2.0: A Criminal Sentencing, Presidential Legacies, and Greenland
I can't speak to what a military effort would look like that isn't an invasion. In terms of economic pressure, tariffs are Trump's tool of choice and have been over and over again. And I was talking to a former Biden administration official about this today who was saying that folks in Greenland are alarmed about the tariff threats.
The Daily
Trump 2.0: A Criminal Sentencing, Presidential Legacies, and Greenland
And there's a sense in Greenland that, as David said, this is different than the discussion in 2019, which was this would be great for us strategically. That's a little different than I want this and I'm going to take it. And I've been reminding some people in the last couple of days that Trump in the early 1980s
The Daily
Trump 2.0: A Criminal Sentencing, Presidential Legacies, and Greenland
when he was making his name as a developer, did things like threaten to move homeless people into a building he had bought to try to get certain tenants out. He did things like paint the homes of people who lived near one of his casinos in Atlantic City because he just didn't like the way they looked without asking their permission. Just went and painted their houses.
The Daily
Trump 2.0: A Criminal Sentencing, Presidential Legacies, and Greenland
And so, like, this is his mindset and everything is sort of flat and the same and he's treating it that way. Trump never rules anything out.
The Daily
Trump 2.0: A Criminal Sentencing, Presidential Legacies, and Greenland
I think in general, he's the incoming president. So I think that after everything we have seen over the last eight years, the whole literally seriously fight seems kind of beside the point to me.
The Daily
Trump 2.0: A Criminal Sentencing, Presidential Legacies, and Greenland
Yeah, and settled. And so he's saying it. I mean, part of the problem, too, Michael, is that Trump sort of everything is a troll until, as Jonathan Swan says, until it suddenly becomes serious.