Lee Gelernt
Appearances
The Rachel Maddow Show
Independent Agency CEO: 'DOGE has broken into our building.'
Thanks for having me, Rachel.
The Rachel Maddow Show
Independent Agency CEO: 'DOGE has broken into our building.'
No, no, no. Sorry. You got it all correct. And I think set it up nicely. And I would just start by saying that, you know, you and I have talked about a lot of big issues over the years. I think right now this is one of the biggest that we've ever discussed. And for two reasons. One is the use of this wartime authority.
The Rachel Maddow Show
Independent Agency CEO: 'DOGE has broken into our building.'
is so unprecedented and so dangerous during peacetime that we all need to be concerned, because right now it's Venezuelans who are being tagged with it and sent off to a Salvadoran prison without any due process whatsoever. But if the courts allow this, it could be one group after another that's just... whisked away and put in Salvador in prison with no access to anybody.
The Rachel Maddow Show
Independent Agency CEO: 'DOGE has broken into our building.'
And these Venezuelan men who have been sent to El Salvador, as the video already suggests, are in real danger. But the second reason this is so big is what you also talked about, is beyond just the Alien Enemies Act, The Trump administration seems to be basically saying the federal courts should stay out of their business.
The Rachel Maddow Show
Independent Agency CEO: 'DOGE has broken into our building.'
But of course, our entire country is premised on the idea that we have three equal branches of government and both Congress and the president will listen to the federal courts. We were very concerned that the administration just simply ignored and violated the court's order to turn their planes around. And so we told the judge we were concerned about it, given all the facts.
The Rachel Maddow Show
Independent Agency CEO: 'DOGE has broken into our building.'
He said, let's get in here for a hearing. We left that hearing even more concerned than we were initially. I mean, the administration tried to first say, well, we didn't think you meant this and that, but obviously they clearly understood what the order meant. They're basically just saying, don't interfere with us. And they even went as far as going to the D.C.
The Rachel Maddow Show
Independent Agency CEO: 'DOGE has broken into our building.'
Circuit a few hours before the hearing to try and get the judge thrown off the case. I mean, this is really extraordinary. And what I said in the hearing was,
The Rachel Maddow Show
Independent Agency CEO: 'DOGE has broken into our building.'
I wanted to be very careful with my words, but I felt like, although a lot of people throw around the term constitutional crisis, we were moving in that direction if the administration is really not going to allow federal courts to do their job.
The Rachel Maddow Show
Independent Agency CEO: 'DOGE has broken into our building.'
Yeah, so I think that's the right question. So the judge will have all the normal types of sanctions and contempt orders that he can issue. But truthfully, we are much more concerned with our clients who are now sitting in a Salvadoran prison. Generally speaking, a federal court cannot order another country to do something
The Rachel Maddow Show
Independent Agency CEO: 'DOGE has broken into our building.'
We think this may be different because we actually think that El Salvador is almost like serving as a private prison with the U.S. footing the bill. And so we were going to, for sure, if he finds that they violated the order, we are for sure going to ask him to get these men back. Because there's no question the United States government has the leverage to do it.
The Rachel Maddow Show
Independent Agency CEO: 'DOGE has broken into our building.'
And we're going to say they're still constructively in U.S. custody. But, you know, that will be our first concern. Whatever other sanctions or contempt orders we ask for, I think will be a secondary concern.
The Rachel Maddow Show
Independent Agency CEO: 'DOGE has broken into our building.'
Oh, for sure. And what we have said is two things. One is that this wartime authority cannot be used because Congress has said very, very clearly it can only be used where the United States is in a declared war with a foreign nation, a foreign nation, or a foreign nation is invading us.
The Rachel Maddow Show
Independent Agency CEO: 'DOGE has broken into our building.'
If the president can just simply say, well, every time we think there's a criminal group that's dangerous, no matter what nationality, we're going to just send them off. That's very dangerous. But the other part of this is that there's zero due process. So let's just assume for the moment that the Alien Enemies Act can be used against a non-state actor.
The Rachel Maddow Show
Independent Agency CEO: 'DOGE has broken into our building.'
We're clear that it can't be, but even if it could, you have to give these individuals some due process to show that they're not part of the gang and then therefore don't fall within the proclamation. Our five named plaintiffs dispute that they're part of the gang. I think we're going to see people when their families are finally reached and they've seen
The Rachel Maddow Show
Independent Agency CEO: 'DOGE has broken into our building.'
photos and videos of these men being taken to El Salvador. Come forward and we're going to see people show that they're not gang members. And, you know, we don't know for sure who is who because the government did this all in secret. But I would just caution people not to buy in immediately to the government's characterization of all these people. I mean, think about Guantanamo.
The Rachel Maddow Show
Independent Agency CEO: 'DOGE has broken into our building.'
They said these are the worst of the worst we're sending to Guantanamo. It quickly, very quickly became clear that many of the people didn't even have a criminal conviction, much less a serious criminal conviction. And so I think we all need to take a beat on whether we think, you know, whether we buy into this characterization.
The Rachel Maddow Show
Independent Agency CEO: 'DOGE has broken into our building.'
But they certainly shouldn't be entitled to a hearing to show they're not part of the gang.
The Rachel Maddow Show
Needless economic pain from Trump not even worth it if his tariff gambit works: economist
Yeah. So I think he was frustrated and he's been frustrated now for several weeks about the government's actions. So there's two sort of parallel things going on in this case. One is, can the administration use this wartime authority during peacetime and remove people potentially for the rest of their lives to this brutal Salvadoran prison?
The Rachel Maddow Show
Needless economic pain from Trump not even worth it if his tariff gambit works: economist
without any due process whatsoever we say no so far the courts have said no we'll see that case is pending in the spring court now we'll see what the spring court says but at the same time the judge is also trying to figure out was his order violated we had an emergency saturday night hearing the administration started moving people under this authority before they even published the law
The Rachel Maddow Show
Needless economic pain from Trump not even worth it if his tariff gambit works: economist
he said turn the planes around till we can figure things out or if they land in el salvador bring the people back the administration did not bring the people back and in a highly publicized video you saw those men being turned over to salvador in prison so the judge is very very concerned that the administration just sort of blatantly violated his order not to turn the planes around and what is he when he said is if you thought my water was wrong appeal it you did appeal it
The Rachel Maddow Show
Needless economic pain from Trump not even worth it if his tariff gambit works: economist
But don't just ignore a federal court's order. He's trying to get to the bottom of what happened, who did it, who ordered them not to turn the planes around, and was it done deliberately.
The Rachel Maddow Show
Needless economic pain from Trump not even worth it if his tariff gambit works: economist
Yeah, I mean, you're asking the exact right question. I don't know how the administration is going to play it. So far, they've not only failed to turn over the information, but they've invoked something called the state secrets privilege, which is invoked so rarely and only in the most serious matters, you know, matters with CIA kind of investigations and that kind of thing.
The Rachel Maddow Show
Needless economic pain from Trump not even worth it if his tariff gambit works: economist
So I don't know what they're going to do. I think the judge is not going to let them off the hook. He is going to want to know who's responsible, what happened. And he today said there may need to be hearings. And he also said, you know, maybe you want to try and avoid contempt by bringing these individuals back. So we'll see how he plays it. But the one thing he's been clear about is
The Rachel Maddow Show
Needless economic pain from Trump not even worth it if his tariff gambit works: economist
This is not about him. This is about a federal court's authority. And I think he is very, very concerned that the administration is just thumbing their nose at the judiciary and saying, well, there was this order, but so be it.
The Rachel Maddow Show
Needless economic pain from Trump not even worth it if his tariff gambit works: economist
Yeah, absolutely. And I wish we could say it was only one person, but we know one person definitively now. But we have started to put in evidence showing that many people were likely mistakenly sent, that they were not gang members. They're using things like tattoos as what they think is definitive proof, but they're not giving anybody a hearing to contest that.
The Rachel Maddow Show
Needless economic pain from Trump not even worth it if his tariff gambit works: economist
Experts have said tattoos are not a reliable indicator for this gang. I think when it's all said and done, we are going to find out that many, many, many people are sitting in a Salvadoran prison, potentially for the rest of their lives, and were never gang members. And the fact that they didn't get any due process means we may just have
The Rachel Maddow Show
Needless economic pain from Trump not even worth it if his tariff gambit works: economist
send people there when they were going to hear from again and so i think this one person that we know now is definitively a mistake i think that's just the tip of the iceberg uh i don't know what the administration's going to do but this judge is going to get to the bottom of it one way or the other and we not only have to deal with the people who've already been sent but we really need to stop it going forward because the administration's saying we don't need to give them process and we will start removing
The Rachel Maddow Show
Needless economic pain from Trump not even worth it if his tariff gambit works: economist
Thank you.