Laurence Blair

Absolutely, yeah. So this is really cutting edge stuff. And I think it's changing every day. And it's so controversial and exciting. But I think it's the new kind of frontier in world history. And and archaeology. I think one element of how this is changing is the fact we have these new technologies and these new tools.

Absolutely, yeah. So this is really cutting edge stuff. And I think it's changing every day. And it's so controversial and exciting. But I think it's the new kind of frontier in world history. And and archaeology. I think one element of how this is changing is the fact we have these new technologies and these new tools.

And I think a key one of these is LiDAR, which you may well have talked about in your episode on the Maya.

And I think a key one of these is LiDAR, which you may well have talked about in your episode on the Maya.

So LiDAR stands for light detection and ranging. And basically this involves flying over a forested area in a plane

So LiDAR stands for light detection and ranging. And basically this involves flying over a forested area in a plane

and shooting laser pulses basically laser beams out of the plane uh towards the ground and you measure how long it takes for them to bounce back and these laser pulses they can penetrate through jungle canopy and they kind of it's almost a bit like a bat you know scanning a cave with these kind of sonar squeaks it gives you this idea of the topography

and shooting laser pulses basically laser beams out of the plane uh towards the ground and you measure how long it takes for them to bounce back and these laser pulses they can penetrate through jungle canopy and they kind of it's almost a bit like a bat you know scanning a cave with these kind of sonar squeaks it gives you this idea of the topography

And of course, that includes, we're talking about structures, basically, man-made structures, ditches, roads, temples. And that's really revolutionized archaeology in many forested, many tropical areas, but I think nowhere more so in the Amazon. And I want to talk about one particular case in particular, which was only really just revealed at the start of this year.

And of course, that includes, we're talking about structures, basically, man-made structures, ditches, roads, temples. And that's really revolutionized archaeology in many forested, many tropical areas, but I think nowhere more so in the Amazon. And I want to talk about one particular case in particular, which was only really just revealed at the start of this year.

This area is in lowland Amazonian Ecuador, an area called the Upano Valley. jungle valley, thick forest, a big snowy volcano called Sangai kind of looming over it. And people have known for a long time that there were some structures here or some kind of mounds, maybe a dozen or so, two dozen of these kind of mounds rising up from the forest floor with pottery.

This area is in lowland Amazonian Ecuador, an area called the Upano Valley. jungle valley, thick forest, a big snowy volcano called Sangai kind of looming over it. And people have known for a long time that there were some structures here or some kind of mounds, maybe a dozen or so, two dozen of these kind of mounds rising up from the forest floor with pottery.

But we didn't really know how many there were and kind of what connected them. Until recently, when Ecuadorian archaeologists, international archaeologists, did a massive LIDAR survey. And what they found was just astounding. We're talking about more than 6,000 of these mounds and platforms. Some of them are 140 metres long and 40 metres... 6,000 in that one valley? 6,000 in this one valley.

But we didn't really know how many there were and kind of what connected them. Until recently, when Ecuadorian archaeologists, international archaeologists, did a massive LIDAR survey. And what they found was just astounding. We're talking about more than 6,000 of these mounds and platforms. Some of them are 140 metres long and 40 metres... 6,000 in that one valley? 6,000 in this one valley.

And that's just the tip of the iceberg. That's just the area that they've surveyed. And these kind of, effectively, pyramids, you know, they're clustered in these 15 settlements. And they seem to have been the foundations of temples and houses. And, you know, it looks like this is a society of upwards of 30,000, maybe even 100,000 people.

And that's just the tip of the iceberg. That's just the area that they've surveyed. And these kind of, effectively, pyramids, you know, they're clustered in these 15 settlements. And they seem to have been the foundations of temples and houses. And, you know, it looks like this is a society of upwards of 30,000, maybe even 100,000 people.

And we can see that they were carving these fields, terraces into the hillsides. very fertile soil there because of this nearby volcano. And the most exciting thing that people have pointed to here is this network of these wide, straight roads, thoroughfares even, that cut through the hillsides and seemingly go over rivers and connecting these different towns, neighbourhoods and houses.

And we can see that they were carving these fields, terraces into the hillsides. very fertile soil there because of this nearby volcano. And the most exciting thing that people have pointed to here is this network of these wide, straight roads, thoroughfares even, that cut through the hillsides and seemingly go over rivers and connecting these different towns, neighbourhoods and houses.

And, you know, I think these seem to be the streets and the highways of a really organized, urbanized culture with serious resources and manpower, which is centered around two particular cities, which the researchers have dubbed Kilomope and Sangai. And I think what's also really fascinating here is they've done radiocarbon dating on some of these sites.

And, you know, I think these seem to be the streets and the highways of a really organized, urbanized culture with serious resources and manpower, which is centered around two particular cities, which the researchers have dubbed Kilomope and Sangai. And I think what's also really fascinating here is they've done radiocarbon dating on some of these sites.

It seems as though these kind of garden cities here in the Upano Valley were inhabited from roughly 500 BC through to 450 AD.

It seems as though these kind of garden cities here in the Upano Valley were inhabited from roughly 500 BC through to 450 AD.

Absolutely. Yeah, it's the classic development of an early society. It's got roads, we've got agriculture, we have got some form of urbanism. So like you say, we're really in the same league as classical antiquity around the world.

Absolutely. Yeah, it's the classic development of an early society. It's got roads, we've got agriculture, we have got some form of urbanism. So like you say, we're really in the same league as classical antiquity around the world.

And in fact, Stevan Rostin, who's one of the leading archaeologists on this particular case, has called them, these cities, an Amazonian Rome, which I think is a great bit of branding. But I think it's also accurate. You know, we're dealing with this really interesting culture here. And I think, you know, I say this is just the tip of the iceberg when we're talking about what LIDAR could reveal.

And in fact, Stevan Rostin, who's one of the leading archaeologists on this particular case, has called them, these cities, an Amazonian Rome, which I think is a great bit of branding. But I think it's also accurate. You know, we're dealing with this really interesting culture here. And I think, you know, I say this is just the tip of the iceberg when we're talking about what LIDAR could reveal.

There's a study last year, which was the largest LIDAR survey to date, and kind of looked at one huge area and then extrapolated from that. And it said that there could be as many as 24,000 pre-Hispanic earthworks. We're talking about ponds, ditches, paths, geoglyphs, buildings, which still remain hidden under the forest.

There's a study last year, which was the largest LIDAR survey to date, and kind of looked at one huge area and then extrapolated from that. And it said that there could be as many as 24,000 pre-Hispanic earthworks. We're talking about ponds, ditches, paths, geoglyphs, buildings, which still remain hidden under the forest.

In the Amazon as a whole.

In the Amazon as a whole.

No, but we're really looking at these several centres. And that's not the only one. We also have an area in northern Bolivia with these huge temples and geoglyphs and carvings and sort of this kind of almost waterlogged irrigation system, which almost looked like something from the Nile, from the Ganges. So really we're looking at the tip of the iceberg here.

No, but we're really looking at these several centres. And that's not the only one. We also have an area in northern Bolivia with these huge temples and geoglyphs and carvings and sort of this kind of almost waterlogged irrigation system, which almost looked like something from the Nile, from the Ganges. So really we're looking at the tip of the iceberg here.

Absolutely. I think there, like you say, you have this almost ready-made, fertile soil, which perhaps gives them a head start.

Absolutely. I think there, like you say, you have this almost ready-made, fertile soil, which perhaps gives them a head start.

And I think it's not coincidental that a lot of, and we'll come back to this later on, but a lot of the early domestication of crops, including even cacao, famously used in chocolate, seems to actually have not originated in the Andes or in Mesoamerica, but from that bit of Amazonian Ecuador. So these are real pioneers.

And I think it's not coincidental that a lot of, and we'll come back to this later on, but a lot of the early domestication of crops, including even cacao, famously used in chocolate, seems to actually have not originated in the Andes or in Mesoamerica, but from that bit of Amazonian Ecuador. So these are real pioneers.

But even elsewhere, where you don't necessarily have this fertile volcanic soil and you have a lot more rain, you have these kind of rivers which wash away a lot of the soil, there's actually a growing consensus that Amazonians were actually engineering this kind of remarkable substance of their own, which laid the foundations for these kind of thriving, long-lasting kingdoms in the rainforest.

But even elsewhere, where you don't necessarily have this fertile volcanic soil and you have a lot more rain, you have these kind of rivers which wash away a lot of the soil, there's actually a growing consensus that Amazonians were actually engineering this kind of remarkable substance of their own, which laid the foundations for these kind of thriving, long-lasting kingdoms in the rainforest.

And that substance is called terra preta in Portuguese or dark earth in English to the likes of you and me. And to kind of just give your listeners the sense of what it's like, this is a kind of deep brown, almost kind of black soil. Think about, you know, prodding a black forest gateau. It's kind of got that spongy touch to it. It's effectively ancient trash, you know, it's rubbish.

And that substance is called terra preta in Portuguese or dark earth in English to the likes of you and me. And to kind of just give your listeners the sense of what it's like, this is a kind of deep brown, almost kind of black soil. Think about, you know, prodding a black forest gateau. It's kind of got that spongy touch to it. It's effectively ancient trash, you know, it's rubbish.

But people, even today, Brazilian farmers really treat it like treasure. And this stuff contains, it's got animal bones, it's got mollusk shells, it's got pot shards, charcoal, and full of all these kinds of nutrients, which agriculture needs, calcium, zinc, phosphorus, nitrogen, potassium.

But people, even today, Brazilian farmers really treat it like treasure. And this stuff contains, it's got animal bones, it's got mollusk shells, it's got pot shards, charcoal, and full of all these kinds of nutrients, which agriculture needs, calcium, zinc, phosphorus, nitrogen, potassium.

And fascinatingly, where you find it in the densest concentrations in the Amazon is along these kind of bluffs above these riverbanks, exactly the kind of places where Carvajal and Orellana saw these really densely packed settlements. There's some disagreement about exactly what terra preta is and where it comes from. And the traditional view is, okay, well, this is just kind of rubbish.

And fascinatingly, where you find it in the densest concentrations in the Amazon is along these kind of bluffs above these riverbanks, exactly the kind of places where Carvajal and Orellana saw these really densely packed settlements. There's some disagreement about exactly what terra preta is and where it comes from. And the traditional view is, okay, well, this is just kind of rubbish.

It's accidental byproduct of latrines and cook fires from millennia ago. Others have said, this is river sediment, it's appearing naturally. But actually, the growing consensus is that this stuff was actually generated on purpose. It's a way of deliberately enhancing Amazonian soil to sustain long-term habitation.

It's accidental byproduct of latrines and cook fires from millennia ago. Others have said, this is river sediment, it's appearing naturally. But actually, the growing consensus is that this stuff was actually generated on purpose. It's a way of deliberately enhancing Amazonian soil to sustain long-term habitation.

Exactly. I think that that's what we could be dealing with here. Just to give you an example of one kind of people that use this stuff, we have the Kuikuro, who are an Amazonian people. They're still around today along the Upper Shingu River, for those who know where that is. And they settled that area a century before 1492.

Exactly. I think that that's what we could be dealing with here. Just to give you an example of one kind of people that use this stuff, we have the Kuikuro, who are an Amazonian people. They're still around today along the Upper Shingu River, for those who know where that is. And they settled that area a century before 1492.

these big towns of a thousand people ringed by paths and wooden palisades. Today there's only around 800 of them, but they still live in these circular thatched villages and they still pile their wastes, ash, peel from vegetables, fish bones, broken pots, charcoal, into these big heaps known as middens. They leave it for a few years and then they go and spread it on their garden plots.

these big towns of a thousand people ringed by paths and wooden palisades. Today there's only around 800 of them, but they still live in these circular thatched villages and they still pile their wastes, ash, peel from vegetables, fish bones, broken pots, charcoal, into these big heaps known as middens. They leave it for a few years and then they go and spread it on their garden plots.

And what they get out of them is incredible. Sweet potatoes, beans, papaya, cotton, tobacco. And if they leave the soil alone, they don't plant anything. Jungle sprouts from it within a couple of weeks. So it's incredibly fertile. A study just last year has analysed that terra preta, this modern terra preta created by the Kikuro with the ancient kind.

And what they get out of them is incredible. Sweet potatoes, beans, papaya, cotton, tobacco. And if they leave the soil alone, they don't plant anything. Jungle sprouts from it within a couple of weeks. So it's incredibly fertile. A study just last year has analysed that terra preta, this modern terra preta created by the Kikuro with the ancient kind.

And they found that it's exactly the same in its chemical composition, or pretty much exactly the same. It's just as fertile, just as rich in organic matter. And also it tends to occur near plazas, near squares, and near houses. And so the authors of the study, who include several agricultural researchers, they say,

And they found that it's exactly the same in its chemical composition, or pretty much exactly the same. It's just as fertile, just as rich in organic matter. And also it tends to occur near plazas, near squares, and near houses. And so the authors of the study, who include several agricultural researchers, they say,

There's a very strong hint that terra preta has been around for millennia and has really been used by ancient Amazonians. It's kind of an ancient agricultural technology which locks carbon into the soil, actually, rather than releasing it to the atmosphere and potentially seems to have been producing food for many millions of people across the ancient Amazon.

There's a very strong hint that terra preta has been around for millennia and has really been used by ancient Amazonians. It's kind of an ancient agricultural technology which locks carbon into the soil, actually, rather than releasing it to the atmosphere and potentially seems to have been producing food for many millions of people across the ancient Amazon.

Thanks so much for having me, Tristan. Really pleased to be here.

Thanks so much for having me, Tristan. Really pleased to be here.

Absolutely. I think that this is almost their secret source. It helps them get the edge and build these kind of towns and cities. And I think it's interesting that where you see these really, really thick deposits of terra preta is also where you see really dense deposits of ceramics and pottery and signs that people are really thriving. There's one spot I went to a few years ago.

Absolutely. I think that this is almost their secret source. It helps them get the edge and build these kind of towns and cities. And I think it's interesting that where you see these really, really thick deposits of terra preta is also where you see really dense deposits of ceramics and pottery and signs that people are really thriving. There's one spot I went to a few years ago.

It's called Teodonio. It's this quite small fishing village with brick bungalows on the Madeira River in the Brazilian Amazon state called Rondônia. This has some of the most densely packed terra preta anywhere in the Amazon. If you think about hollow ways in the English countryside, you walk down these tracks and you have these big banks rising on either side of you.

It's called Teodonio. It's this quite small fishing village with brick bungalows on the Madeira River in the Brazilian Amazon state called Rondônia. This has some of the most densely packed terra preta anywhere in the Amazon. If you think about hollow ways in the English countryside, you walk down these tracks and you have these big banks rising on either side of you.

It's studded with this pottery. And this actually seems to be one of the longest continually inhabited places on the planet, and actually a crucible of not only American civilization, by which I mean the Americas as a whole, but even world civilization. Because here you have ancestors of two indigenous groups, family groups, I suppose, called the Arawa and the Tupi-Guarani.

It's studded with this pottery. And this actually seems to be one of the longest continually inhabited places on the planet, and actually a crucible of not only American civilization, by which I mean the Americas as a whole, but even world civilization. Because here you have ancestors of two indigenous groups, family groups, I suppose, called the Arawa and the Tupi-Guarani.

who kind of seem to almost originate from here. They're hunting, they're fishing, they're farming, they're domesticating wild plants and vegetables, fruits, developing new languages, and they're going on the move as well. The Arawak actually are especially intrepid navigators. We find their descendants and their people

who kind of seem to almost originate from here. They're hunting, they're fishing, they're farming, they're domesticating wild plants and vegetables, fruits, developing new languages, and they're going on the move as well. The Arawak actually are especially intrepid navigators. We find their descendants and their people

in the Chaco Forest of Northern Paraguay, where I'm calling you today, the Orinoco Basin in Venezuela, Guyana, and in the Bahamas. And actually, it's their descendants, the Taino, who come across Columbus on Hispaniola in 1492. And we actually use Arawak and Taino words every day. You know, barbecue, canoe, hammock, hurricane, maize, potato, tobacco.

in the Chaco Forest of Northern Paraguay, where I'm calling you today, the Orinoco Basin in Venezuela, Guyana, and in the Bahamas. And actually, it's their descendants, the Taino, who come across Columbus on Hispaniola in 1492. And we actually use Arawak and Taino words every day. You know, barbecue, canoe, hammock, hurricane, maize, potato, tobacco.

These are things which have their ultimate origin in the Amazon. And just to say a quick thing about the pottery which these people are producing, it's just prodigious. I went into this storeroom, this vault in Rondonia with two local archaeologists, and it's just packed to the rafters with crate after crate of this stuff. Cauldrons, vessels, urns for burying the dead.

These are things which have their ultimate origin in the Amazon. And just to say a quick thing about the pottery which these people are producing, it's just prodigious. I went into this storeroom, this vault in Rondonia with two local archaeologists, and it's just packed to the rafters with crate after crate of this stuff. Cauldrons, vessels, urns for burying the dead.

It's polished, it's brightly painted. There are monkeys, there are serpents. I think the key thing to bear in mind, this isn't just crockery. This stuff is really crucial because it shows us that these aren't people who were scratching at living or kind of frozen in time.

It's polished, it's brightly painted. There are monkeys, there are serpents. I think the key thing to bear in mind, this isn't just crockery. This stuff is really crucial because it shows us that these aren't people who were scratching at living or kind of frozen in time.

These are sedentary cosmopolitan societies that have enough food and enough fuel and material to support this kind of industry of artists and artisans.

These are sedentary cosmopolitan societies that have enough food and enough fuel and material to support this kind of industry of artists and artisans.

Yeah, that boundary is being pushed back further and further every year. But we're looking at some really dense terra preta deposits from about 6,000 years ago. And actually the oldest ceramics that have ever been found anywhere in the Americas, north or south, actually were found in the Amazon. And they seem to date back to about 7,000 years ago.

Yeah, that boundary is being pushed back further and further every year. But we're looking at some really dense terra preta deposits from about 6,000 years ago. And actually the oldest ceramics that have ever been found anywhere in the Americas, north or south, actually were found in the Amazon. And they seem to date back to about 7,000 years ago.

And even going even further back, we have plant materials, you know, fossilized seeds, food waste, which goes back 9,000 years ago. And I think this is also the other kind of secret substance, the other kind of key ingredient, which is really perhaps explains the flourishing of these Amazonian civilizations.

And even going even further back, we have plant materials, you know, fossilized seeds, food waste, which goes back 9,000 years ago. And I think this is also the other kind of secret substance, the other kind of key ingredient, which is really perhaps explains the flourishing of these Amazonian civilizations.

It seems as though ancient Amazonians were actually improving and adapting forests around them. Archaeologists have identified at least 80 species. We're talking about cassava, sweet potato, Brazil nuts, peppers, fruits, palms, tobacco.

It seems as though ancient Amazonians were actually improving and adapting forests around them. Archaeologists have identified at least 80 species. We're talking about cassava, sweet potato, Brazil nuts, peppers, fruits, palms, tobacco.

Oh, definitely. I think we all have this idea, don't we, of the Amazon as this pristine wilderness, this kind of backwater, and it's so far away from anything and everything. But actually, what's so fascinating is in the past few decades alone, that idea is really being turned on its head and actually

Oh, definitely. I think we all have this idea, don't we, of the Amazon as this pristine wilderness, this kind of backwater, and it's so far away from anything and everything. But actually, what's so fascinating is in the past few decades alone, that idea is really being turned on its head and actually

Exactly. So taking a kind of wild variety and then experimenting with it, propagating it, planting it, you know, until you get the best kind of yields. I don't know if, Tristan, have you ever tried a kind of purplish fruit called acai?

Exactly. So taking a kind of wild variety and then experimenting with it, propagating it, planting it, you know, until you get the best kind of yields. I don't know if, Tristan, have you ever tried a kind of purplish fruit called acai?

Well, you'll have to look out for it next time you're at an ice cream shop. But it's starting to take off, particularly in this hemisphere. It's a delicious kind of purpley fruit. It tastes a little bit like bubblegum, a little bit like raspberry. And this is a fruit which ancient Amazonians basically

Well, you'll have to look out for it next time you're at an ice cream shop. But it's starting to take off, particularly in this hemisphere. It's a delicious kind of purpley fruit. It tastes a little bit like bubblegum, a little bit like raspberry. And this is a fruit which ancient Amazonians basically

domesticated and propagated and made it so that it kind of flourishes in these massive big berry pods, basically. It's this really abundant fruit full of all kinds of good stuff. And so this process of domesticating these crop or these plants, I should say, these fruits, this was well underway by about 6,000 BC. So it's up there in the same league as, yeah,

domesticated and propagated and made it so that it kind of flourishes in these massive big berry pods, basically. It's this really abundant fruit full of all kinds of good stuff. And so this process of domesticating these crop or these plants, I should say, these fruits, this was well underway by about 6,000 BC. So it's up there in the same league as, yeah,

So America included, but I think we need to add another circle, you know, for the kind of the Western Amazon in particular. And yeah, it's one of the major centres where farming... I think farming, we can talk about that.

So America included, but I think we need to add another circle, you know, for the kind of the Western Amazon in particular. And yeah, it's one of the major centres where farming... I think farming, we can talk about that.

I think it might even be better to use the word agroforestry, because this is a kind of way of planting crops, planting fruits, vegetables, which doesn't involve large amounts of deforestation. Crucially, and we're not just talking about tree-hugging for the sake of it.

I think it might even be better to use the word agroforestry, because this is a kind of way of planting crops, planting fruits, vegetables, which doesn't involve large amounts of deforestation. Crucially, and we're not just talking about tree-hugging for the sake of it.

What we see is that Amazonian civilizations are actually creating these trails through the forest about 25 miles into the jungle from their settlements and propagating useful fruit trees and vegetables along those trails. And I think it's just common sense because if you haven't got access to metal tools, if you're using a stone axe, it takes you all day to cut down a tree.

What we see is that Amazonian civilizations are actually creating these trails through the forest about 25 miles into the jungle from their settlements and propagating useful fruit trees and vegetables along those trails. And I think it's just common sense because if you haven't got access to metal tools, if you're using a stone axe, it takes you all day to cut down a tree.

So it's much easier if you just, okay, we'll thin out the undergrowth a little bit and we'll basically plant this kind of, living larder, which is going to restock itself. It's simple.

So it's much easier if you just, okay, we'll thin out the undergrowth a little bit and we'll basically plant this kind of, living larder, which is going to restock itself. It's simple.

And I think, to give another example, I think we touched on this already, but these crops we think of as being quintessentially Andean, like maize, or quintessentially Mesoamerican, like cacao, actually seem to have originated in northwestern Amazonia. So cacao, the Mexica and the Maya, they use it as currency, they drink it as this sacred bitter drink called chopalatl.

And I think, to give another example, I think we touched on this already, but these crops we think of as being quintessentially Andean, like maize, or quintessentially Mesoamerican, like cacao, actually seem to have originated in northwestern Amazonia. So cacao, the Mexica and the Maya, they use it as currency, they drink it as this sacred bitter drink called chopalatl.

We're discovering more and more archaeologists from Brazil and around the world and various South American countries are finding that this is really a center of world history and should be kind of considered as being up there with the Mexica or the Aztecs, with the Maya, even the Incas and any of the great ancient civilizations of the world.

We're discovering more and more archaeologists from Brazil and around the world and various South American countries are finding that this is really a center of world history and should be kind of considered as being up there with the Mexica or the Aztecs, with the Maya, even the Incas and any of the great ancient civilizations of the world.

was actually first being consumed in the Ecuadorian Amazon about 5,300 years ago, maybe by the ancestors of those Upano Valley garden cities. So I think the point you make there, Tristan, about a comparison with England, with the English countryside or the British countryside, I think is a good one, because today it's this kind of jumbled landscape. It's gardens, fields, parkland, corpses.

was actually first being consumed in the Ecuadorian Amazon about 5,300 years ago, maybe by the ancestors of those Upano Valley garden cities. So I think the point you make there, Tristan, about a comparison with England, with the English countryside or the British countryside, I think is a good one, because today it's this kind of jumbled landscape. It's gardens, fields, parkland, corpses.

I think we now understand that it's neither entirely natural nor entirely man-made, right? And I think If you can go back a few centuries ago, our ancestors in Britain or across Western Europe were really depending on the forest. They were coppicing, they were making hedgerows, they were gathering firewood, they were hunting. It's not so long ago that we were also in much closer contact with that.

I think we now understand that it's neither entirely natural nor entirely man-made, right? And I think If you can go back a few centuries ago, our ancestors in Britain or across Western Europe were really depending on the forest. They were coppicing, they were making hedgerows, they were gathering firewood, they were hunting. It's not so long ago that we were also in much closer contact with that.

We were molded and molded by the woods. To sum up this stuff on the plant domestication, The rainforest today perhaps has an estimated 400 billion trees. The cautious estimate is that around 10% of them, 40 billion, are there because of humans. And some would put that figure a lot higher and say that we're basically looking at a domesticated forest.

We were molded and molded by the woods. To sum up this stuff on the plant domestication, The rainforest today perhaps has an estimated 400 billion trees. The cautious estimate is that around 10% of them, 40 billion, are there because of humans. And some would put that figure a lot higher and say that we're basically looking at a domesticated forest.

Absolutely, Tristan. Yeah, I mean, if you go to the Amazon today, I mean, right now there's a really bad drought, unfortunately, which maybe we'll talk about in a bit. But they really bring us home how much people, even today, depend on the rivers of the rainforest, not just the Amazon, the Sol de Moist, the Rio Negro.

Absolutely, Tristan. Yeah, I mean, if you go to the Amazon today, I mean, right now there's a really bad drought, unfortunately, which maybe we'll talk about in a bit. But they really bring us home how much people, even today, depend on the rivers of the rainforest, not just the Amazon, the Sol de Moist, the Rio Negro.

This is really a life that's lived on the water or in close contact with the water. Fish is your main kind of protein source. So it's natural, of course, that people would have really depended on that. centuries or millennia ago.

This is really a life that's lived on the water or in close contact with the water. Fish is your main kind of protein source. So it's natural, of course, that people would have really depended on that. centuries or millennia ago.

So I'm really thrilled to have a chance to talk to you about some of them today.

So I'm really thrilled to have a chance to talk to you about some of them today.

To set the scene for your listeners, if you take the ferry down the Rio Amazon today, you set off from Manaus, you sling your hammock, you find a little spot to squeeze in there amongst the passengers. It takes you about five days to get down to the mouth of the Amazon. a place called Belem, which is actually where the COP conference, the climate conference, is going to be held next year.

To set the scene for your listeners, if you take the ferry down the Rio Amazon today, you set off from Manaus, you sling your hammock, you find a little spot to squeeze in there amongst the passengers. It takes you about five days to get down to the mouth of the Amazon. a place called Belem, which is actually where the COP conference, the climate conference, is going to be held next year.

And so you have this big city on the one hand. On the left, you have this place called Marechal Island, which is this kind of Switzerland-sized landmass. And it's actually there which one of the rainforest's longest-lasting civilizations emerged. And again, we have the same pattern as with Ecuador. You know, Brazilian scholars noted that, okay, there was some hillocks here.

And so you have this big city on the one hand. On the left, you have this place called Marechal Island, which is this kind of Switzerland-sized landmass. And it's actually there which one of the rainforest's longest-lasting civilizations emerged. And again, we have the same pattern as with Ecuador. You know, Brazilian scholars noted that, okay, there was some hillocks here.

This is an island which is often underwater for half the year, but it has these mounds and it has these, interestingly, these female figurines, these kind of

This is an island which is often underwater for half the year, but it has these mounds and it has these, interestingly, these female figurines, these kind of

most feminine divine images which obviously we see in other parts of the ancient world as well you know the the venus figure you know which is quite familiar to a lot of early societies so we have these mounts here on manashore island and but you know the idea was well this is kind of maybe just a not particularly sophisticated society maybe they're descendants of an andean migration that's you know that's come down from the andes come down the rivers and

most feminine divine images which obviously we see in other parts of the ancient world as well you know the the venus figure you know which is quite familiar to a lot of early societies so we have these mounts here on manashore island and but you know the idea was well this is kind of maybe just a not particularly sophisticated society maybe they're descendants of an andean migration that's you know that's come down from the andes come down the rivers and

have gradually shed their quote-unquote civilised ways here in the terrible tropics, because it's right on the equator, this particular spot. But again, recent surveys, recent technologies, a change in perspective maybe has helped us find evidence to suggest the opposite. We have, in fact, hundreds of these platforms scattered across an area of 7,000 square miles.

have gradually shed their quote-unquote civilised ways here in the terrible tropics, because it's right on the equator, this particular spot. But again, recent surveys, recent technologies, a change in perspective maybe has helped us find evidence to suggest the opposite. We have, in fact, hundreds of these platforms scattered across an area of 7,000 square miles.

They've got clay floors, cemeteries, fireplaces, hearths that have burned consistently for centuries. And the first signs of habitation here are dating back to 3500. 100 BC, but actually, these are places of really sustained feasting, worshipping, mourning for over a millennium after AD 300.

They've got clay floors, cemeteries, fireplaces, hearths that have burned consistently for centuries. And the first signs of habitation here are dating back to 3500. 100 BC, but actually, these are places of really sustained feasting, worshipping, mourning for over a millennium after AD 300.

Intriguingly, we have some skeletons from the Manaxawara, this ancient people, and they actually seem to have been healthier and stronger, almost a bit like a kind of modern-day Greco-Roman wrestler than even the average Brazilian today. And actually, if you look at the pottery on the ceramics, you see this feminine, divine imagery. And the graves of women are actually richer in goods.

Intriguingly, we have some skeletons from the Manaxawara, this ancient people, and they actually seem to have been healthier and stronger, almost a bit like a kind of modern-day Greco-Roman wrestler than even the average Brazilian today. And actually, if you look at the pottery on the ceramics, you see this feminine, divine imagery. And the graves of women are actually richer in goods.

So maybe it's something a little bit like the Amazons that we talked about in Carver House Chronicle, you know, these warrior women. Perhaps we're seeing an echo of that in the archaeological records, in the sense that we have Manasohara women who were actually calling the shots and maybe even taking their pick of these muscle-bound admirers.

So maybe it's something a little bit like the Amazons that we talked about in Carver House Chronicle, you know, these warrior women. Perhaps we're seeing an echo of that in the archaeological records, in the sense that we have Manasohara women who were actually calling the shots and maybe even taking their pick of these muscle-bound admirers.

There's one thing I want to also say about these Manasohara. What's the foundation of this culture? It seems like they were able to harvest all these

There's one thing I want to also say about these Manasohara. What's the foundation of this culture? It seems like they were able to harvest all these

aquatic resources the piranhas the turtles the catfish by building this really ingenious system of ponds and dams bridges to capture them as the kind of flood water came in every season and then when it came out leave behind this you know it's effectively a huge archipelago of fish farms so you travel back to manasho island you know maybe a century before columbus and

aquatic resources the piranhas the turtles the catfish by building this really ingenious system of ponds and dams bridges to capture them as the kind of flood water came in every season and then when it came out leave behind this you know it's effectively a huge archipelago of fish farms so you travel back to manasho island you know maybe a century before columbus and

you might see this archipelago of towns connected by bridges and walkways and populated by these industrious and relatively egalitarian fish farmers and potters. There doesn't seem to have been this single overbearing king or priestly class, which again I think flips the script a little bit about what we think about ancient societies, the pharaoh or the king.

you might see this archipelago of towns connected by bridges and walkways and populated by these industrious and relatively egalitarian fish farmers and potters. There doesn't seem to have been this single overbearing king or priestly class, which again I think flips the script a little bit about what we think about ancient societies, the pharaoh or the king.

perhaps because of the way the environment is so rich and so bountiful, you actually, you know, you don't need to kind of kowtow to this kind of, you know, all-powerful chief, because if he gets too big for his boots, you can sort of set off into the forest for yourself and your family and start your own thing.

perhaps because of the way the environment is so rich and so bountiful, you actually, you know, you don't need to kind of kowtow to this kind of, you know, all-powerful chief, because if he gets too big for his boots, you can sort of set off into the forest for yourself and your family and start your own thing.

You've got to be careful. And, you know, and to mention those pots, yeah, we have some of them which still survive and they're huge. You know, I went to a museum in Belém a few years ago and, you know, they're almost the size of two kind of outstretched arms. You can't really get your hands around them. They're massive and they,

You've got to be careful. And, you know, and to mention those pots, yeah, we have some of them which still survive and they're huge. You know, I went to a museum in Belém a few years ago and, you know, they're almost the size of two kind of outstretched arms. You can't really get your hands around them. They're massive and they,

have these protuberances and these almost the kind of fish lips monkey ears it's kind of owlish expression even these kind of extended beards like the the beards you see on on on pharaoh's kind of mummies so really creative really artistic

have these protuberances and these almost the kind of fish lips monkey ears it's kind of owlish expression even these kind of extended beards like the the beards you see on on on pharaoh's kind of mummies so really creative really artistic

That's a great question. So the Amazon is a huge area. It's the size of Western Europe. It spans eight countries here in South America. We're talking about a dozen major rivers that are crisscrossing it. Of course, the Amazon River is the most famous one. It's 4,000 miles long. And it's the largest tropical forest on the planet. And of course, it's crucial to the Earth's climate as well.

That's a great question. So the Amazon is a huge area. It's the size of Western Europe. It spans eight countries here in South America. We're talking about a dozen major rivers that are crisscrossing it. Of course, the Amazon River is the most famous one. It's 4,000 miles long. And it's the largest tropical forest on the planet. And of course, it's crucial to the Earth's climate as well.

Yeah, I think it's a great question. And it's really one of those great mysteries because we don't have Amazonians themselves outside of oral legend telling us what happened to their distant ancestors. I think one factor in the mix was climate change.

Yeah, I think it's a great question. And it's really one of those great mysteries because we don't have Amazonians themselves outside of oral legend telling us what happened to their distant ancestors. I think one factor in the mix was climate change.

In the millennium prior to 1492, you see in the archaeological record these big, long-range migrations by Amazonians and by other lowland peoples in South America. It's almost as if they're fleeing something, they're running away from something, they're displaced by something.

In the millennium prior to 1492, you see in the archaeological record these big, long-range migrations by Amazonians and by other lowland peoples in South America. It's almost as if they're fleeing something, they're running away from something, they're displaced by something.

We mentioned the Upano Valley cities, that they're in the shadow of this big, ominous volcano, and you quite rightly mentioned Pompeii. Well, you know, I think we don't yet know, but it seems perhaps there was a big catastrophic eruption of this volcano whose name is Sangai, which in Quechua means the frightener. So it's almost as if it was waiting to happen.

We mentioned the Upano Valley cities, that they're in the shadow of this big, ominous volcano, and you quite rightly mentioned Pompeii. Well, you know, I think we don't yet know, but it seems perhaps there was a big catastrophic eruption of this volcano whose name is Sangai, which in Quechua means the frightener. So it's almost as if it was waiting to happen.

And if suddenly your fields are covered in pyroclastic flow, it's not only going to have an impact on you, but also on your neighbours and your distant trading partners. You know, we're talking about cultures which are really in close contact with each other. And across the Amazon, production of terra preta, that magical black soil that we talked about, it really falls off sharply around AD 1000.

And if suddenly your fields are covered in pyroclastic flow, it's not only going to have an impact on you, but also on your neighbours and your distant trading partners. You know, we're talking about cultures which are really in close contact with each other. And across the Amazon, production of terra preta, that magical black soil that we talked about, it really falls off sharply around AD 1000.

There's much less of this organic soil being produced, and you start to see walls made of earth and wood springing up. It's almost like we're seeing this breakdown in this more pacifistic, commercial archipelago of different peoples, and almost people are digging in, really, and fighting each other.

There's much less of this organic soil being produced, and you start to see walls made of earth and wood springing up. It's almost like we're seeing this breakdown in this more pacifistic, commercial archipelago of different peoples, and almost people are digging in, really, and fighting each other.

Around AD 1200, the Manasho Mounds that we talked about on the island near Belem were abandoned as the rain seemed to be drying up and their fish ponds probably went dry and turned kind of salty because you're right there on the border of the Atlantic.

Around AD 1200, the Manasho Mounds that we talked about on the island near Belem were abandoned as the rain seemed to be drying up and their fish ponds probably went dry and turned kind of salty because you're right there on the border of the Atlantic.

As these societies grew more complex, I think a sudden shortage of a particular fish or a plant or a commodity could really have a domino effect and trigger this rolling collapse. You know, right now in South America, let's say we're living through this really historic drought. The Amazon River is almost at its lowest level since people can remember, since it's been recorded.

As these societies grew more complex, I think a sudden shortage of a particular fish or a plant or a commodity could really have a domino effect and trigger this rolling collapse. You know, right now in South America, let's say we're living through this really historic drought. The Amazon River is almost at its lowest level since people can remember, since it's been recorded.

And that's causing problems even today. You know, people can't transport their goods, people can't get to schools and hospitals. So I think, you know, that would have had a huge impact if, you know, seasonal variations or

And that's causing problems even today. You know, people can't transport their goods, people can't get to schools and hospitals. So I think, you know, that would have had a huge impact if, you know, seasonal variations or

or you know cyclical variations in the climate had an effect and one thing that's been revealed as these and by recent droughts are these carvings in the riverbank near manouts that show these kind of ghostly faces a bit like scream you know that famous everett monk painting you know and there's also these grooves for sharpening weapons so i think that that maybe gives us a hint of what was going on and crucially i think you know as we mentioned already it's these it's the european illnesses you know these plagues which sweep through these

or you know cyclical variations in the climate had an effect and one thing that's been revealed as these and by recent droughts are these carvings in the riverbank near manouts that show these kind of ghostly faces a bit like scream you know that famous everett monk painting you know and there's also these grooves for sharpening weapons so i think that that maybe gives us a hint of what was going on and crucially i think you know as we mentioned already it's these it's the european illnesses you know these plagues which sweep through these

places and uh you know before many europeans even arrived i think crucially even before europeans really properly invaded let's say south america these illnesses were racing ahead of them before they quote-unquote conquered the incas the incas empire had already been ravished by european illnesses because they were transmitted from one trader to another traveler to another diplomat so really that those those very thriving villages which are

places and uh you know before many europeans even arrived i think crucially even before europeans really properly invaded let's say south america these illnesses were racing ahead of them before they quote-unquote conquered the incas the incas empire had already been ravished by european illnesses because they were transmitted from one trader to another traveler to another diplomat so really that those those very thriving villages which are

Brianna and Carvajal saw in the 1540s were perhaps only the shadow of these great Amazonian powers. And I think actually, you know, if we think about some of the Amazonian peoples that are still uncontacted today or living in voluntary isolation is the kind of preferred term because they're people who are choosing to avoid us and with good reason in many cases.

Brianna and Carvajal saw in the 1540s were perhaps only the shadow of these great Amazonian powers. And I think actually, you know, if we think about some of the Amazonian peoples that are still uncontacted today or living in voluntary isolation is the kind of preferred term because they're people who are choosing to avoid us and with good reason in many cases.

And I think one thing to make clear is it's not just this kind of endless expanse of trees, of jungle, to put it that way. We're talking about a huge range of landscapes.

And I think one thing to make clear is it's not just this kind of endless expanse of trees, of jungle, to put it that way. We're talking about a huge range of landscapes.

These aren't people who have necessarily been living in like that since the Stone Age. They may even be the great-grandchildren of settled, prosperous Amazonian societies, which just outside of living memory have run away from European colonization.

These aren't people who have necessarily been living in like that since the Stone Age. They may even be the great-grandchildren of settled, prosperous Amazonian societies, which just outside of living memory have run away from European colonization.

Around 1900, there was a massive rubber boom in the Amazon that really saw horrific abuses perpetrated against the Amazonian peoples by different companies from Britain, from the United States. And so these are people who actually haven't always been like that. but actually are still living well. They've realized that perhaps they don't need to live in cities.

Around 1900, there was a massive rubber boom in the Amazon that really saw horrific abuses perpetrated against the Amazonian peoples by different companies from Britain, from the United States. And so these are people who actually haven't always been like that. but actually are still living well. They've realized that perhaps they don't need to live in cities.

They don't need to live in a way which we would recognize as being a kind of urban, prosperous society because they have what they need. Their ancestors have planted this biome with many, many life-giving species and have developed it to be almost a perfect niche for humans to thrive. And I think that's a really important message to bring home here.

They don't need to live in a way which we would recognize as being a kind of urban, prosperous society because they have what they need. Their ancestors have planted this biome with many, many life-giving species and have developed it to be almost a perfect niche for humans to thrive. And I think that's a really important message to bring home here.

This knowledge of how to live sustainably with the rainforest still exists, not only amongst indigenous communities, but in the Afro-descendant and the mixed race populations, which are kind of living in the Amazon today. You go to any village and they'll be able to point out to you 12, 15, 20 species, which they use sustainably.

This knowledge of how to live sustainably with the rainforest still exists, not only amongst indigenous communities, but in the Afro-descendant and the mixed race populations, which are kind of living in the Amazon today. You go to any village and they'll be able to point out to you 12, 15, 20 species, which they use sustainably.

You know, you've got these kind of tabletop mountains in Venezuela, Colombia, Guyana, a cloud forest on the eastern slopes of the Andes, big cities, you know, in Manaus and Belém, they're about, you know, 30 million people or so who live in the Amazon today. And of course, also, we have this kind of marshy swampland near the mouth of the river and these kind of floodplains in northern Bolivia.

You know, you've got these kind of tabletop mountains in Venezuela, Colombia, Guyana, a cloud forest on the eastern slopes of the Andes, big cities, you know, in Manaus and Belém, they're about, you know, 30 million people or so who live in the Amazon today. And of course, also, we have this kind of marshy swampland near the mouth of the river and these kind of floodplains in northern Bolivia.

In about a year's time, in November 2025, we're going to have this COP conference, the World Climate Conference in Belém, that Amazonian city. And Brazil's President Lula has said that this is a chance for the world to really learn from the Amazon's longest standing inhabitants, that humans can live with and within the rainforest, in their millions, and live well without destroying it.

In about a year's time, in November 2025, we're going to have this COP conference, the World Climate Conference in Belém, that Amazonian city. And Brazil's President Lula has said that this is a chance for the world to really learn from the Amazon's longest standing inhabitants, that humans can live with and within the rainforest, in their millions, and live well without destroying it.

It's called Patria, Lost Countries of South America. It's indeed out today in all the bookshops and on e-readers. And it's an alternative history of South America, a journey through centuries of slightly forgotten or lesser known histories and really trying to put South America back on the map of global history and overturn some of these tropes about guns, germs and steel, which we've all heard.

It's called Patria, Lost Countries of South America. It's indeed out today in all the bookshops and on e-readers. And it's an alternative history of South America, a journey through centuries of slightly forgotten or lesser known histories and really trying to put South America back on the map of global history and overturn some of these tropes about guns, germs and steel, which we've all heard.

And the Amazon is such a big part of that.

And the Amazon is such a big part of that.

Thanks for having me. I had a great time.

Thanks for having me. I had a great time.

So it's really, you know, it's a kind of mosaic of different landscapes. And of course, we look very different, you know, 500, 1,000, 10,000 years ago. perhaps a bit drier, perhaps more savanna dispersed with the forest.

So it's really, you know, it's a kind of mosaic of different landscapes. And of course, we look very different, you know, 500, 1,000, 10,000 years ago. perhaps a bit drier, perhaps more savanna dispersed with the forest.

And I think one key concept to think about is this idea of this pristine rainforest today that we're looking at and still exists in some places is actually a bit more like a very carefully tended garden that's grown wild.

And I think one key concept to think about is this idea of this pristine rainforest today that we're looking at and still exists in some places is actually a bit more like a very carefully tended garden that's grown wild.

Exactly. We're talking about flood plains which don't have forests, but during the season where the river is lower, grasses grow. We're talking about patches of grassland interspersed with forest. It's really a mixture. The Amazon connects with ecosystems on all different sides as well. So really a diverse and very biodiverse landscape.

Exactly. We're talking about flood plains which don't have forests, but during the season where the river is lower, grasses grow. We're talking about patches of grassland interspersed with forest. It's really a mixture. The Amazon connects with ecosystems on all different sides as well. So really a diverse and very biodiverse landscape.

It holds millions and millions of species, many of which we probably haven't even discovered yet.

It holds millions and millions of species, many of which we probably haven't even discovered yet.

Absolutely. We're talking about a huge cultural diversity, you know, hundreds of different groups, thousands even with hundreds of different languages, you know, whose ways of life probably change over the millennia. You know, we have small groups of anarchistic hunter-gatherers who are quite sort of most democratic, perhaps in the way they run their affairs.

Absolutely. We're talking about a huge cultural diversity, you know, hundreds of different groups, thousands even with hundreds of different languages, you know, whose ways of life probably change over the millennia. You know, we have small groups of anarchistic hunter-gatherers who are quite sort of most democratic, perhaps in the way they run their affairs.

Then you have these seasonal farmers, you

Then you have these seasonal farmers, you

have big urban centers which we'll talk about in a little bit and some of these people of course are still around you know there's descendants are still here and they still have a lot to teach us others of course are no longer here and we don't even know their names and i think that this is the real challenge we have here you know you know the meshika or the maya even the inca you know they had some forms of writing you know the inca had the khipu with these kind of

have big urban centers which we'll talk about in a little bit and some of these people of course are still around you know there's descendants are still here and they still have a lot to teach us others of course are no longer here and we don't even know their names and i think that this is the real challenge we have here you know you know the meshika or the maya even the inca you know they had some forms of writing you know the inca had the khipu with these kind of

knotted memory cords. And of course, they interacted very closely with the Spanish. With the ancient Amazonians, we have so little to go on. It's quite fragmentary. They left some paintings, pictograms on cliff faces. And there's a really fascinating site called the Serrania de Chirubiquete, Colombia, which people often call the Sistine Chapel of the Amazon.

knotted memory cords. And of course, they interacted very closely with the Spanish. With the ancient Amazonians, we have so little to go on. It's quite fragmentary. They left some paintings, pictograms on cliff faces. And there's a really fascinating site called the Serrania de Chirubiquete, Colombia, which people often call the Sistine Chapel of the Amazon.

It's this amazing spot, which is actually off limits to tourists. But it's these huge tabletop mountains and about 20,000 or so and counting of these pictograms in red dye. And for me, the most fascinating thing is that, you know, people are still adding to them. There are uncontacted people in the area who are still painting them.

It's this amazing spot, which is actually off limits to tourists. But it's these huge tabletop mountains and about 20,000 or so and counting of these pictograms in red dye. And for me, the most fascinating thing is that, you know, people are still adding to them. There are uncontacted people in the area who are still painting them.

And so it's almost this kind of work in progress from the kind of late Stone Age, really, which is still being added to. So that's one bit of evidence there. But also we have other things. We have things that outsiders wrote about them. Portuguese, Spanish missionaries, gold hunters, bounty hunters. And of course, we have to take a lot of that with a pinch of salt.

And so it's almost this kind of work in progress from the kind of late Stone Age, really, which is still being added to. So that's one bit of evidence there. But also we have other things. We have things that outsiders wrote about them. Portuguese, Spanish missionaries, gold hunters, bounty hunters. And of course, we have to take a lot of that with a pinch of salt.

We also have the archaeological record. We have pottery, a huge amount of pottery. We have animal bones. We have these huge glyphs, you know, what are called geoglyphs. So the way that these people shape the landscape around them to build roads, ditches, ponds, temples, pyramids.

We also have the archaeological record. We have pottery, a huge amount of pottery. We have animal bones. We have these huge glyphs, you know, what are called geoglyphs. So the way that these people shape the landscape around them to build roads, ditches, ponds, temples, pyramids.

And I think the most intriguing thing here as well is actually more and more archaeologists or this particular class of archaeologists called the paleobotanist, they're looking at the trees themselves and plant evidence to kind of understand how actually the Amazon was being moulded over many thousands of years by human hands.

And I think the most intriguing thing here as well is actually more and more archaeologists or this particular class of archaeologists called the paleobotanist, they're looking at the trees themselves and plant evidence to kind of understand how actually the Amazon was being moulded over many thousands of years by human hands.

Oh, definitely. I think as people who are fascinated by the past, we have a kind of bias, don't we, towards temples and ruins. And we want to see stone buildings. We want to see papyrus. And those things, of course, are fantastic when you have them.

Oh, definitely. I think as people who are fascinated by the past, we have a kind of bias, don't we, towards temples and ruins. And we want to see stone buildings. We want to see papyrus. And those things, of course, are fantastic when you have them.

But I think we need to almost break out of the idea that every ancient culture should have those things, that actually there are ways that you can leave a legacy in a way that you can build a society that really flourishes without large stone buildings and without written writing.

But I think we need to almost break out of the idea that every ancient culture should have those things, that actually there are ways that you can leave a legacy in a way that you can build a society that really flourishes without large stone buildings and without written writing.

It's almost kind of trying to flip the script a little bit and almost understand the real diversity of ancient human societies.

It's almost kind of trying to flip the script a little bit and almost understand the real diversity of ancient human societies.

Really, these first people that are going through the Amazon, they have an agenda. We have this famous voyage by Francisco de Orellana and about 60 or so men who go to the Amazon in search of this land rich in cinnamon, which presumably the Andeans and Incas have told them about.

Really, these first people that are going through the Amazon, they have an agenda. We have this famous voyage by Francisco de Orellana and about 60 or so men who go to the Amazon in search of this land rich in cinnamon, which presumably the Andeans and Incas have told them about.

Even there, the pre-Columbian peoples of the Andes have this concept of the Amazon as being this quite dangerous, exciting, wealthy place. So we have this voyage in 1541, 1542, with this group of around 60 Spaniards, Africans, Andeans. And they have this incredible eight-month voyage down the Amazon.

Even there, the pre-Columbian peoples of the Andes have this concept of the Amazon as being this quite dangerous, exciting, wealthy place. So we have this voyage in 1541, 1542, with this group of around 60 Spaniards, Africans, Andeans. And they have this incredible eight-month voyage down the Amazon.

And, you know, they meet some people who are friendly and really take them in and give them food and show them this incredible wealth in terms of ceramics and art. But in other places, they really meet very stiff opposition. And I think the locals, they twig quite early on that these guys do not mean us well.

And, you know, they meet some people who are friendly and really take them in and give them food and show them this incredible wealth in terms of ceramics and art. But in other places, they really meet very stiff opposition. And I think the locals, they twig quite early on that these guys do not mean us well.

And so they're fighting these running battles, and they're being chased away from towns, and they're starving, they're eating crabs, they're eating roots and herbs, which Gaspar de Carvajal, who's the chaplain who chronicles this trip, says made us turn mad and witless. perhaps they were chewing on an ayahuasca plant or something there. So it's this very strange journey.

And so they're fighting these running battles, and they're being chased away from towns, and they're starving, they're eating crabs, they're eating roots and herbs, which Gaspar de Carvajal, who's the chaplain who chronicles this trip, says made us turn mad and witless. perhaps they were chewing on an ayahuasca plant or something there. So it's this very strange journey.

And they come across these tall warrior women, which they call the Amazons. And they talk about these great cities, which are just kind of glimmering in land. And, you know, there's a A fantastic quote by this chaplain, Garvachal, who says, all those we've passed along this river are people of much intelligence and ingenuity.

And they come across these tall warrior women, which they call the Amazons. And they talk about these great cities, which are just kind of glimmering in land. And, you know, there's a A fantastic quote by this chaplain, Garvachal, who says, all those we've passed along this river are people of much intelligence and ingenuity.

They're passing these towns which are crammed cheek by jowl along the riverbanks. And it's almost this fascinating glimpse of this lost world. And they weren't the only ones. Some of your listeners may have heard of Emilio Vespucci, who's the man who gives his name to the Americas. And he also kind of skirts his way down the Amazon coastline. in 1500.

They're passing these towns which are crammed cheek by jowl along the riverbanks. And it's almost this fascinating glimpse of this lost world. And they weren't the only ones. Some of your listeners may have heard of Emilio Vespucci, who's the man who gives his name to the Americas. And he also kind of skirts his way down the Amazon coastline. in 1500.

And he says, you know, all the ancient authors, the people that you'll be familiar with, Tristan, you know, your Pliny's and your Aristotle's, said, no, no, no. Once you go south of the equator, it's just water. There's nothing there. Or if there is a landmass there, it's completely uninhabited. You know, it's almost a sort of wasteland. But Vespucci says, no, no, no, they've got it wrong.

And he says, you know, all the ancient authors, the people that you'll be familiar with, Tristan, you know, your Pliny's and your Aristotle's, said, no, no, no. Once you go south of the equator, it's just water. There's nothing there. Or if there is a landmass there, it's completely uninhabited. You know, it's almost a sort of wasteland. But Vespucci says, no, no, no, they've got it wrong.

Their opinion is false, he says, and utterly opposed to the truth. In those southern parts, I have found a continent more densely peopled than our Europe or Asia or Africa. So they're quite clear. But for centuries, these tales of this almost urbanized Amazon are really relegated to the realm of legend.

Their opinion is false, he says, and utterly opposed to the truth. In those southern parts, I have found a continent more densely peopled than our Europe or Asia or Africa. So they're quite clear. But for centuries, these tales of this almost urbanized Amazon are really relegated to the realm of legend.

I think that's a really fascinating question. And I think part of it is because, well, let's look at these guys who've survived this voyage. They're not the most reliable narrators. As I said, they spend a lot of time kind of tripping on these hallucinogenic herbs. Some of them are being poisoned by tree frog toxins, which can also cause you to have visions of

I think that's a really fascinating question. And I think part of it is because, well, let's look at these guys who've survived this voyage. They're not the most reliable narrators. As I said, they spend a lot of time kind of tripping on these hallucinogenic herbs. Some of them are being poisoned by tree frog toxins, which can also cause you to have visions of

And often they don't even dare to disembark. They say that our vessel was so full of arrows that it looked like a porcupine. So how reliable was this testimony?

And often they don't even dare to disembark. They say that our vessel was so full of arrows that it looked like a porcupine. So how reliable was this testimony?

And also I think locals, Amazonians, they had an incentive maybe to fob them off a bit and go, listen, if you just carry on another few miles down river, there's this incredible city and it's dripping in gulf and it's got these powerfully built warrior queens who take menace there. as they're captives in war i mean you know what a great way to get these guys to hurry up and move on out of town

And also I think locals, Amazonians, they had an incentive maybe to fob them off a bit and go, listen, if you just carry on another few miles down river, there's this incredible city and it's dripping in gulf and it's got these powerfully built warrior queens who take menace there. as they're captives in war i mean you know what a great way to get these guys to hurry up and move on out of town

I think that's part of it. I think the other part of it is that the diseases which Europeans bring to the new world, which indigenous peoples and nations have very little resistance to, they really inflict a terrible toll in the Amazon. As I say, these are quite densely populated, quite mobile communities with these big trading networks. They send ambassadors to each other. They send

I think that's part of it. I think the other part of it is that the diseases which Europeans bring to the new world, which indigenous peoples and nations have very little resistance to, they really inflict a terrible toll in the Amazon. As I say, these are quite densely populated, quite mobile communities with these big trading networks. They send ambassadors to each other. They send

traders, they send explorers. So these are perfect vectors for typhus, malaria, for smallpox. And so I think by the time that Europeans come back in force about a century later in the early 1600s, there's not much evidence left of these people. The villages are now gone and it's just kind of pure jungle.

traders, they send explorers. So these are perfect vectors for typhus, malaria, for smallpox. And so I think by the time that Europeans come back in force about a century later in the early 1600s, there's not much evidence left of these people. The villages are now gone and it's just kind of pure jungle.

And so there's one Portuguese chronicler who says, you know, these indigenous peoples here in Brazil, they're not like the ones in the Andes or in Mesoamerica. They live in disorder. You know, they're godless, lawless, they're leaderless. And I think that, you know, you mentioned the idea of the Amazon being a land without history.

And so there's one Portuguese chronicler who says, you know, these indigenous peoples here in Brazil, they're not like the ones in the Andes or in Mesoamerica. They live in disorder. You know, they're godless, lawless, they're leaderless. And I think that, you know, you mentioned the idea of the Amazon being a land without history.

That was famously the conclusion of this Brazilian geographer called Euclides da Cunha. who helped map out Brazil's borders with Peru, and he said, this is a land without history. And I think that idea really has persisted until quite recently. Archaeologists, particularly ones from the United States who came down to Brazil in the 40s and 50s,

That was famously the conclusion of this Brazilian geographer called Euclides da Cunha. who helped map out Brazil's borders with Peru, and he said, this is a land without history. And I think that idea really has persisted until quite recently. Archaeologists, particularly ones from the United States who came down to Brazil in the 40s and 50s,

They said, well, look, the soil here in the Amazon has always been washed away by its downpours. There's no stone. There's not enough metal for tools. There's no big animals to hunt. So this is not really a hospitable place. It's really hostile. And even Brazil's military dictatorship in the 70s encourages people to come and settle the Amazon.

They said, well, look, the soil here in the Amazon has always been washed away by its downpours. There's no stone. There's not enough metal for tools. There's no big animals to hunt. So this is not really a hospitable place. It's really hostile. And even Brazil's military dictatorship in the 70s encourages people to come and settle the Amazon.

And the slogan is a land without men for men without land. And even today, you have conservationists who I think mean very well, but they will tell you when they're doing their funding drives, they'll say, you know, the Amazon, as I call it, is a vast, untamed wilderness. So the notion of Amazonia as this kind of backwater on the edge of world history, I think is pretty alive and kicking.

And the slogan is a land without men for men without land. And even today, you have conservationists who I think mean very well, but they will tell you when they're doing their funding drives, they'll say, you know, the Amazon, as I call it, is a vast, untamed wilderness. So the notion of Amazonia as this kind of backwater on the edge of world history, I think is pretty alive and kicking.

Absolutely, yeah. So this is really cutting edge stuff. And I think it's changing every day. And it's so controversial and exciting. But I think it's the new kind of frontier in world history. And and archaeology. I think one element of how this is changing is the fact we have these new technologies and these new tools.

And I think a key one of these is LiDAR, which you may well have talked about in your episode on the Maya.

So LiDAR stands for light detection and ranging. And basically this involves flying over a forested area in a plane

and shooting laser pulses basically laser beams out of the plane uh towards the ground and you measure how long it takes for them to bounce back and these laser pulses they can penetrate through jungle canopy and they kind of it's almost a bit like a bat you know scanning a cave with these kind of sonar squeaks it gives you this idea of the topography

And of course, that includes, we're talking about structures, basically, man-made structures, ditches, roads, temples. And that's really revolutionized archaeology in many forested, many tropical areas, but I think nowhere more so in the Amazon. And I want to talk about one particular case in particular, which was only really just revealed at the start of this year.

This area is in lowland Amazonian Ecuador, an area called the Upano Valley. jungle valley, thick forest, a big snowy volcano called Sangai kind of looming over it. And people have known for a long time that there were some structures here or some kind of mounds, maybe a dozen or so, two dozen of these kind of mounds rising up from the forest floor with pottery.

But we didn't really know how many there were and kind of what connected them. Until recently, when Ecuadorian archaeologists, international archaeologists, did a massive LIDAR survey. And what they found was just astounding. We're talking about more than 6,000 of these mounds and platforms. Some of them are 140 metres long and 40 metres... 6,000 in that one valley? 6,000 in this one valley.

And that's just the tip of the iceberg. That's just the area that they've surveyed. And these kind of, effectively, pyramids, you know, they're clustered in these 15 settlements. And they seem to have been the foundations of temples and houses. And, you know, it looks like this is a society of upwards of 30,000, maybe even 100,000 people.

And we can see that they were carving these fields, terraces into the hillsides. very fertile soil there because of this nearby volcano. And the most exciting thing that people have pointed to here is this network of these wide, straight roads, thoroughfares even, that cut through the hillsides and seemingly go over rivers and connecting these different towns, neighbourhoods and houses.

And, you know, I think these seem to be the streets and the highways of a really organized, urbanized culture with serious resources and manpower, which is centered around two particular cities, which the researchers have dubbed Kilomope and Sangai. And I think what's also really fascinating here is they've done radiocarbon dating on some of these sites.

It seems as though these kind of garden cities here in the Upano Valley were inhabited from roughly 500 BC through to 450 AD.

Absolutely. Yeah, it's the classic development of an early society. It's got roads, we've got agriculture, we have got some form of urbanism. So like you say, we're really in the same league as classical antiquity around the world.

And in fact, Stevan Rostin, who's one of the leading archaeologists on this particular case, has called them, these cities, an Amazonian Rome, which I think is a great bit of branding. But I think it's also accurate. You know, we're dealing with this really interesting culture here. And I think, you know, I say this is just the tip of the iceberg when we're talking about what LIDAR could reveal.

There's a study last year, which was the largest LIDAR survey to date, and kind of looked at one huge area and then extrapolated from that. And it said that there could be as many as 24,000 pre-Hispanic earthworks. We're talking about ponds, ditches, paths, geoglyphs, buildings, which still remain hidden under the forest.

In the Amazon as a whole.

No, but we're really looking at these several centres. And that's not the only one. We also have an area in northern Bolivia with these huge temples and geoglyphs and carvings and sort of this kind of almost waterlogged irrigation system, which almost looked like something from the Nile, from the Ganges. So really we're looking at the tip of the iceberg here.

Absolutely. I think there, like you say, you have this almost ready-made, fertile soil, which perhaps gives them a head start.

And I think it's not coincidental that a lot of, and we'll come back to this later on, but a lot of the early domestication of crops, including even cacao, famously used in chocolate, seems to actually have not originated in the Andes or in Mesoamerica, but from that bit of Amazonian Ecuador. So these are real pioneers.

But even elsewhere, where you don't necessarily have this fertile volcanic soil and you have a lot more rain, you have these kind of rivers which wash away a lot of the soil, there's actually a growing consensus that Amazonians were actually engineering this kind of remarkable substance of their own, which laid the foundations for these kind of thriving, long-lasting kingdoms in the rainforest.

And that substance is called terra preta in Portuguese or dark earth in English to the likes of you and me. And to kind of just give your listeners the sense of what it's like, this is a kind of deep brown, almost kind of black soil. Think about, you know, prodding a black forest gateau. It's kind of got that spongy touch to it. It's effectively ancient trash, you know, it's rubbish.

But people, even today, Brazilian farmers really treat it like treasure. And this stuff contains, it's got animal bones, it's got mollusk shells, it's got pot shards, charcoal, and full of all these kinds of nutrients, which agriculture needs, calcium, zinc, phosphorus, nitrogen, potassium.

And fascinatingly, where you find it in the densest concentrations in the Amazon is along these kind of bluffs above these riverbanks, exactly the kind of places where Carvajal and Orellana saw these really densely packed settlements. There's some disagreement about exactly what terra preta is and where it comes from. And the traditional view is, okay, well, this is just kind of rubbish.

It's accidental byproduct of latrines and cook fires from millennia ago. Others have said, this is river sediment, it's appearing naturally. But actually, the growing consensus is that this stuff was actually generated on purpose. It's a way of deliberately enhancing Amazonian soil to sustain long-term habitation.

Exactly. I think that that's what we could be dealing with here. Just to give you an example of one kind of people that use this stuff, we have the Kuikuro, who are an Amazonian people. They're still around today along the Upper Shingu River, for those who know where that is. And they settled that area a century before 1492.

these big towns of a thousand people ringed by paths and wooden palisades. Today there's only around 800 of them, but they still live in these circular thatched villages and they still pile their wastes, ash, peel from vegetables, fish bones, broken pots, charcoal, into these big heaps known as middens. They leave it for a few years and then they go and spread it on their garden plots.

And what they get out of them is incredible. Sweet potatoes, beans, papaya, cotton, tobacco. And if they leave the soil alone, they don't plant anything. Jungle sprouts from it within a couple of weeks. So it's incredibly fertile. A study just last year has analysed that terra preta, this modern terra preta created by the Kikuro with the ancient kind.

And they found that it's exactly the same in its chemical composition, or pretty much exactly the same. It's just as fertile, just as rich in organic matter. And also it tends to occur near plazas, near squares, and near houses. And so the authors of the study, who include several agricultural researchers, they say,

There's a very strong hint that terra preta has been around for millennia and has really been used by ancient Amazonians. It's kind of an ancient agricultural technology which locks carbon into the soil, actually, rather than releasing it to the atmosphere and potentially seems to have been producing food for many millions of people across the ancient Amazon.

Thanks so much for having me, Tristan. Really pleased to be here.

Absolutely. I think that this is almost their secret source. It helps them get the edge and build these kind of towns and cities. And I think it's interesting that where you see these really, really thick deposits of terra preta is also where you see really dense deposits of ceramics and pottery and signs that people are really thriving. There's one spot I went to a few years ago.

It's called Teodonio. It's this quite small fishing village with brick bungalows on the Madeira River in the Brazilian Amazon state called Rondônia. This has some of the most densely packed terra preta anywhere in the Amazon. If you think about hollow ways in the English countryside, you walk down these tracks and you have these big banks rising on either side of you.

It's studded with this pottery. And this actually seems to be one of the longest continually inhabited places on the planet, and actually a crucible of not only American civilization, by which I mean the Americas as a whole, but even world civilization. Because here you have ancestors of two indigenous groups, family groups, I suppose, called the Arawa and the Tupi-Guarani.

who kind of seem to almost originate from here. They're hunting, they're fishing, they're farming, they're domesticating wild plants and vegetables, fruits, developing new languages, and they're going on the move as well. The Arawak actually are especially intrepid navigators. We find their descendants and their people

in the Chaco Forest of Northern Paraguay, where I'm calling you today, the Orinoco Basin in Venezuela, Guyana, and in the Bahamas. And actually, it's their descendants, the Taino, who come across Columbus on Hispaniola in 1492. And we actually use Arawak and Taino words every day. You know, barbecue, canoe, hammock, hurricane, maize, potato, tobacco.

These are things which have their ultimate origin in the Amazon. And just to say a quick thing about the pottery which these people are producing, it's just prodigious. I went into this storeroom, this vault in Rondonia with two local archaeologists, and it's just packed to the rafters with crate after crate of this stuff. Cauldrons, vessels, urns for burying the dead.

It's polished, it's brightly painted. There are monkeys, there are serpents. I think the key thing to bear in mind, this isn't just crockery. This stuff is really crucial because it shows us that these aren't people who were scratching at living or kind of frozen in time.

These are sedentary cosmopolitan societies that have enough food and enough fuel and material to support this kind of industry of artists and artisans.

Yeah, that boundary is being pushed back further and further every year. But we're looking at some really dense terra preta deposits from about 6,000 years ago. And actually the oldest ceramics that have ever been found anywhere in the Americas, north or south, actually were found in the Amazon. And they seem to date back to about 7,000 years ago.

And even going even further back, we have plant materials, you know, fossilized seeds, food waste, which goes back 9,000 years ago. And I think this is also the other kind of secret substance, the other kind of key ingredient, which is really perhaps explains the flourishing of these Amazonian civilizations.

It seems as though ancient Amazonians were actually improving and adapting forests around them. Archaeologists have identified at least 80 species. We're talking about cassava, sweet potato, Brazil nuts, peppers, fruits, palms, tobacco.

Oh, definitely. I think we all have this idea, don't we, of the Amazon as this pristine wilderness, this kind of backwater, and it's so far away from anything and everything. But actually, what's so fascinating is in the past few decades alone, that idea is really being turned on its head and actually

Exactly. So taking a kind of wild variety and then experimenting with it, propagating it, planting it, you know, until you get the best kind of yields. I don't know if, Tristan, have you ever tried a kind of purplish fruit called acai?

Well, you'll have to look out for it next time you're at an ice cream shop. But it's starting to take off, particularly in this hemisphere. It's a delicious kind of purpley fruit. It tastes a little bit like bubblegum, a little bit like raspberry. And this is a fruit which ancient Amazonians basically

domesticated and propagated and made it so that it kind of flourishes in these massive big berry pods, basically. It's this really abundant fruit full of all kinds of good stuff. And so this process of domesticating these crop or these plants, I should say, these fruits, this was well underway by about 6,000 BC. So it's up there in the same league as, yeah,

So America included, but I think we need to add another circle, you know, for the kind of the Western Amazon in particular. And yeah, it's one of the major centres where farming... I think farming, we can talk about that.

I think it might even be better to use the word agroforestry, because this is a kind of way of planting crops, planting fruits, vegetables, which doesn't involve large amounts of deforestation. Crucially, and we're not just talking about tree-hugging for the sake of it.

What we see is that Amazonian civilizations are actually creating these trails through the forest about 25 miles into the jungle from their settlements and propagating useful fruit trees and vegetables along those trails. And I think it's just common sense because if you haven't got access to metal tools, if you're using a stone axe, it takes you all day to cut down a tree.

So it's much easier if you just, okay, we'll thin out the undergrowth a little bit and we'll basically plant this kind of, living larder, which is going to restock itself. It's simple.

And I think, to give another example, I think we touched on this already, but these crops we think of as being quintessentially Andean, like maize, or quintessentially Mesoamerican, like cacao, actually seem to have originated in northwestern Amazonia. So cacao, the Mexica and the Maya, they use it as currency, they drink it as this sacred bitter drink called chopalatl.

We're discovering more and more archaeologists from Brazil and around the world and various South American countries are finding that this is really a center of world history and should be kind of considered as being up there with the Mexica or the Aztecs, with the Maya, even the Incas and any of the great ancient civilizations of the world.

was actually first being consumed in the Ecuadorian Amazon about 5,300 years ago, maybe by the ancestors of those Upano Valley garden cities. So I think the point you make there, Tristan, about a comparison with England, with the English countryside or the British countryside, I think is a good one, because today it's this kind of jumbled landscape. It's gardens, fields, parkland, corpses.

I think we now understand that it's neither entirely natural nor entirely man-made, right? And I think If you can go back a few centuries ago, our ancestors in Britain or across Western Europe were really depending on the forest. They were coppicing, they were making hedgerows, they were gathering firewood, they were hunting. It's not so long ago that we were also in much closer contact with that.

We were molded and molded by the woods. To sum up this stuff on the plant domestication, The rainforest today perhaps has an estimated 400 billion trees. The cautious estimate is that around 10% of them, 40 billion, are there because of humans. And some would put that figure a lot higher and say that we're basically looking at a domesticated forest.

Absolutely, Tristan. Yeah, I mean, if you go to the Amazon today, I mean, right now there's a really bad drought, unfortunately, which maybe we'll talk about in a bit. But they really bring us home how much people, even today, depend on the rivers of the rainforest, not just the Amazon, the Sol de Moist, the Rio Negro.

This is really a life that's lived on the water or in close contact with the water. Fish is your main kind of protein source. So it's natural, of course, that people would have really depended on that. centuries or millennia ago.

So I'm really thrilled to have a chance to talk to you about some of them today.

To set the scene for your listeners, if you take the ferry down the Rio Amazon today, you set off from Manaus, you sling your hammock, you find a little spot to squeeze in there amongst the passengers. It takes you about five days to get down to the mouth of the Amazon. a place called Belem, which is actually where the COP conference, the climate conference, is going to be held next year.

And so you have this big city on the one hand. On the left, you have this place called Marechal Island, which is this kind of Switzerland-sized landmass. And it's actually there which one of the rainforest's longest-lasting civilizations emerged. And again, we have the same pattern as with Ecuador. You know, Brazilian scholars noted that, okay, there was some hillocks here.

This is an island which is often underwater for half the year, but it has these mounds and it has these, interestingly, these female figurines, these kind of

most feminine divine images which obviously we see in other parts of the ancient world as well you know the the venus figure you know which is quite familiar to a lot of early societies so we have these mounts here on manashore island and but you know the idea was well this is kind of maybe just a not particularly sophisticated society maybe they're descendants of an andean migration that's you know that's come down from the andes come down the rivers and

have gradually shed their quote-unquote civilised ways here in the terrible tropics, because it's right on the equator, this particular spot. But again, recent surveys, recent technologies, a change in perspective maybe has helped us find evidence to suggest the opposite. We have, in fact, hundreds of these platforms scattered across an area of 7,000 square miles.

They've got clay floors, cemeteries, fireplaces, hearths that have burned consistently for centuries. And the first signs of habitation here are dating back to 3500. 100 BC, but actually, these are places of really sustained feasting, worshipping, mourning for over a millennium after AD 300.

Intriguingly, we have some skeletons from the Manaxawara, this ancient people, and they actually seem to have been healthier and stronger, almost a bit like a kind of modern-day Greco-Roman wrestler than even the average Brazilian today. And actually, if you look at the pottery on the ceramics, you see this feminine, divine imagery. And the graves of women are actually richer in goods.

So maybe it's something a little bit like the Amazons that we talked about in Carver House Chronicle, you know, these warrior women. Perhaps we're seeing an echo of that in the archaeological records, in the sense that we have Manasohara women who were actually calling the shots and maybe even taking their pick of these muscle-bound admirers.

There's one thing I want to also say about these Manasohara. What's the foundation of this culture? It seems like they were able to harvest all these

aquatic resources the piranhas the turtles the catfish by building this really ingenious system of ponds and dams bridges to capture them as the kind of flood water came in every season and then when it came out leave behind this you know it's effectively a huge archipelago of fish farms so you travel back to manasho island you know maybe a century before columbus and

you might see this archipelago of towns connected by bridges and walkways and populated by these industrious and relatively egalitarian fish farmers and potters. There doesn't seem to have been this single overbearing king or priestly class, which again I think flips the script a little bit about what we think about ancient societies, the pharaoh or the king.

perhaps because of the way the environment is so rich and so bountiful, you actually, you know, you don't need to kind of kowtow to this kind of, you know, all-powerful chief, because if he gets too big for his boots, you can sort of set off into the forest for yourself and your family and start your own thing.

You've got to be careful. And, you know, and to mention those pots, yeah, we have some of them which still survive and they're huge. You know, I went to a museum in Belém a few years ago and, you know, they're almost the size of two kind of outstretched arms. You can't really get your hands around them. They're massive and they,

have these protuberances and these almost the kind of fish lips monkey ears it's kind of owlish expression even these kind of extended beards like the the beards you see on on on pharaoh's kind of mummies so really creative really artistic

That's a great question. So the Amazon is a huge area. It's the size of Western Europe. It spans eight countries here in South America. We're talking about a dozen major rivers that are crisscrossing it. Of course, the Amazon River is the most famous one. It's 4,000 miles long. And it's the largest tropical forest on the planet. And of course, it's crucial to the Earth's climate as well.

Yeah, I think it's a great question. And it's really one of those great mysteries because we don't have Amazonians themselves outside of oral legend telling us what happened to their distant ancestors. I think one factor in the mix was climate change.

In the millennium prior to 1492, you see in the archaeological record these big, long-range migrations by Amazonians and by other lowland peoples in South America. It's almost as if they're fleeing something, they're running away from something, they're displaced by something.

We mentioned the Upano Valley cities, that they're in the shadow of this big, ominous volcano, and you quite rightly mentioned Pompeii. Well, you know, I think we don't yet know, but it seems perhaps there was a big catastrophic eruption of this volcano whose name is Sangai, which in Quechua means the frightener. So it's almost as if it was waiting to happen.

And if suddenly your fields are covered in pyroclastic flow, it's not only going to have an impact on you, but also on your neighbours and your distant trading partners. You know, we're talking about cultures which are really in close contact with each other. And across the Amazon, production of terra preta, that magical black soil that we talked about, it really falls off sharply around AD 1000.

There's much less of this organic soil being produced, and you start to see walls made of earth and wood springing up. It's almost like we're seeing this breakdown in this more pacifistic, commercial archipelago of different peoples, and almost people are digging in, really, and fighting each other.

Around AD 1200, the Manasho Mounds that we talked about on the island near Belem were abandoned as the rain seemed to be drying up and their fish ponds probably went dry and turned kind of salty because you're right there on the border of the Atlantic.

As these societies grew more complex, I think a sudden shortage of a particular fish or a plant or a commodity could really have a domino effect and trigger this rolling collapse. You know, right now in South America, let's say we're living through this really historic drought. The Amazon River is almost at its lowest level since people can remember, since it's been recorded.

And that's causing problems even today. You know, people can't transport their goods, people can't get to schools and hospitals. So I think, you know, that would have had a huge impact if, you know, seasonal variations or

or you know cyclical variations in the climate had an effect and one thing that's been revealed as these and by recent droughts are these carvings in the riverbank near manouts that show these kind of ghostly faces a bit like scream you know that famous everett monk painting you know and there's also these grooves for sharpening weapons so i think that that maybe gives us a hint of what was going on and crucially i think you know as we mentioned already it's these it's the european illnesses you know these plagues which sweep through these

places and uh you know before many europeans even arrived i think crucially even before europeans really properly invaded let's say south america these illnesses were racing ahead of them before they quote-unquote conquered the incas the incas empire had already been ravished by european illnesses because they were transmitted from one trader to another traveler to another diplomat so really that those those very thriving villages which are

Brianna and Carvajal saw in the 1540s were perhaps only the shadow of these great Amazonian powers. And I think actually, you know, if we think about some of the Amazonian peoples that are still uncontacted today or living in voluntary isolation is the kind of preferred term because they're people who are choosing to avoid us and with good reason in many cases.

And I think one thing to make clear is it's not just this kind of endless expanse of trees, of jungle, to put it that way. We're talking about a huge range of landscapes.

These aren't people who have necessarily been living in like that since the Stone Age. They may even be the great-grandchildren of settled, prosperous Amazonian societies, which just outside of living memory have run away from European colonization.

Around 1900, there was a massive rubber boom in the Amazon that really saw horrific abuses perpetrated against the Amazonian peoples by different companies from Britain, from the United States. And so these are people who actually haven't always been like that. but actually are still living well. They've realized that perhaps they don't need to live in cities.

They don't need to live in a way which we would recognize as being a kind of urban, prosperous society because they have what they need. Their ancestors have planted this biome with many, many life-giving species and have developed it to be almost a perfect niche for humans to thrive. And I think that's a really important message to bring home here.

This knowledge of how to live sustainably with the rainforest still exists, not only amongst indigenous communities, but in the Afro-descendant and the mixed race populations, which are kind of living in the Amazon today. You go to any village and they'll be able to point out to you 12, 15, 20 species, which they use sustainably.

You know, you've got these kind of tabletop mountains in Venezuela, Colombia, Guyana, a cloud forest on the eastern slopes of the Andes, big cities, you know, in Manaus and Belém, they're about, you know, 30 million people or so who live in the Amazon today. And of course, also, we have this kind of marshy swampland near the mouth of the river and these kind of floodplains in northern Bolivia.

In about a year's time, in November 2025, we're going to have this COP conference, the World Climate Conference in Belém, that Amazonian city. And Brazil's President Lula has said that this is a chance for the world to really learn from the Amazon's longest standing inhabitants, that humans can live with and within the rainforest, in their millions, and live well without destroying it.

It's called Patria, Lost Countries of South America. It's indeed out today in all the bookshops and on e-readers. And it's an alternative history of South America, a journey through centuries of slightly forgotten or lesser known histories and really trying to put South America back on the map of global history and overturn some of these tropes about guns, germs and steel, which we've all heard.

And the Amazon is such a big part of that.

Thanks for having me. I had a great time.

So it's really, you know, it's a kind of mosaic of different landscapes. And of course, we look very different, you know, 500, 1,000, 10,000 years ago. perhaps a bit drier, perhaps more savanna dispersed with the forest.

And I think one key concept to think about is this idea of this pristine rainforest today that we're looking at and still exists in some places is actually a bit more like a very carefully tended garden that's grown wild.

Exactly. We're talking about flood plains which don't have forests, but during the season where the river is lower, grasses grow. We're talking about patches of grassland interspersed with forest. It's really a mixture. The Amazon connects with ecosystems on all different sides as well. So really a diverse and very biodiverse landscape.

It holds millions and millions of species, many of which we probably haven't even discovered yet.

Absolutely. We're talking about a huge cultural diversity, you know, hundreds of different groups, thousands even with hundreds of different languages, you know, whose ways of life probably change over the millennia. You know, we have small groups of anarchistic hunter-gatherers who are quite sort of most democratic, perhaps in the way they run their affairs.

Then you have these seasonal farmers, you

have big urban centers which we'll talk about in a little bit and some of these people of course are still around you know there's descendants are still here and they still have a lot to teach us others of course are no longer here and we don't even know their names and i think that this is the real challenge we have here you know you know the meshika or the maya even the inca you know they had some forms of writing you know the inca had the khipu with these kind of

knotted memory cords. And of course, they interacted very closely with the Spanish. With the ancient Amazonians, we have so little to go on. It's quite fragmentary. They left some paintings, pictograms on cliff faces. And there's a really fascinating site called the Serrania de Chirubiquete, Colombia, which people often call the Sistine Chapel of the Amazon.

It's this amazing spot, which is actually off limits to tourists. But it's these huge tabletop mountains and about 20,000 or so and counting of these pictograms in red dye. And for me, the most fascinating thing is that, you know, people are still adding to them. There are uncontacted people in the area who are still painting them.

And so it's almost this kind of work in progress from the kind of late Stone Age, really, which is still being added to. So that's one bit of evidence there. But also we have other things. We have things that outsiders wrote about them. Portuguese, Spanish missionaries, gold hunters, bounty hunters. And of course, we have to take a lot of that with a pinch of salt.

We also have the archaeological record. We have pottery, a huge amount of pottery. We have animal bones. We have these huge glyphs, you know, what are called geoglyphs. So the way that these people shape the landscape around them to build roads, ditches, ponds, temples, pyramids.

And I think the most intriguing thing here as well is actually more and more archaeologists or this particular class of archaeologists called the paleobotanist, they're looking at the trees themselves and plant evidence to kind of understand how actually the Amazon was being moulded over many thousands of years by human hands.

Oh, definitely. I think as people who are fascinated by the past, we have a kind of bias, don't we, towards temples and ruins. And we want to see stone buildings. We want to see papyrus. And those things, of course, are fantastic when you have them.

But I think we need to almost break out of the idea that every ancient culture should have those things, that actually there are ways that you can leave a legacy in a way that you can build a society that really flourishes without large stone buildings and without written writing.

It's almost kind of trying to flip the script a little bit and almost understand the real diversity of ancient human societies.

Really, these first people that are going through the Amazon, they have an agenda. We have this famous voyage by Francisco de Orellana and about 60 or so men who go to the Amazon in search of this land rich in cinnamon, which presumably the Andeans and Incas have told them about.

Even there, the pre-Columbian peoples of the Andes have this concept of the Amazon as being this quite dangerous, exciting, wealthy place. So we have this voyage in 1541, 1542, with this group of around 60 Spaniards, Africans, Andeans. And they have this incredible eight-month voyage down the Amazon.

And, you know, they meet some people who are friendly and really take them in and give them food and show them this incredible wealth in terms of ceramics and art. But in other places, they really meet very stiff opposition. And I think the locals, they twig quite early on that these guys do not mean us well.

And so they're fighting these running battles, and they're being chased away from towns, and they're starving, they're eating crabs, they're eating roots and herbs, which Gaspar de Carvajal, who's the chaplain who chronicles this trip, says made us turn mad and witless. perhaps they were chewing on an ayahuasca plant or something there. So it's this very strange journey.

And they come across these tall warrior women, which they call the Amazons. And they talk about these great cities, which are just kind of glimmering in land. And, you know, there's a A fantastic quote by this chaplain, Garvachal, who says, all those we've passed along this river are people of much intelligence and ingenuity.

They're passing these towns which are crammed cheek by jowl along the riverbanks. And it's almost this fascinating glimpse of this lost world. And they weren't the only ones. Some of your listeners may have heard of Emilio Vespucci, who's the man who gives his name to the Americas. And he also kind of skirts his way down the Amazon coastline. in 1500.

And he says, you know, all the ancient authors, the people that you'll be familiar with, Tristan, you know, your Pliny's and your Aristotle's, said, no, no, no. Once you go south of the equator, it's just water. There's nothing there. Or if there is a landmass there, it's completely uninhabited. You know, it's almost a sort of wasteland. But Vespucci says, no, no, no, they've got it wrong.

Their opinion is false, he says, and utterly opposed to the truth. In those southern parts, I have found a continent more densely peopled than our Europe or Asia or Africa. So they're quite clear. But for centuries, these tales of this almost urbanized Amazon are really relegated to the realm of legend.

I think that's a really fascinating question. And I think part of it is because, well, let's look at these guys who've survived this voyage. They're not the most reliable narrators. As I said, they spend a lot of time kind of tripping on these hallucinogenic herbs. Some of them are being poisoned by tree frog toxins, which can also cause you to have visions of

And often they don't even dare to disembark. They say that our vessel was so full of arrows that it looked like a porcupine. So how reliable was this testimony?

And also I think locals, Amazonians, they had an incentive maybe to fob them off a bit and go, listen, if you just carry on another few miles down river, there's this incredible city and it's dripping in gulf and it's got these powerfully built warrior queens who take menace there. as they're captives in war i mean you know what a great way to get these guys to hurry up and move on out of town

I think that's part of it. I think the other part of it is that the diseases which Europeans bring to the new world, which indigenous peoples and nations have very little resistance to, they really inflict a terrible toll in the Amazon. As I say, these are quite densely populated, quite mobile communities with these big trading networks. They send ambassadors to each other. They send

traders, they send explorers. So these are perfect vectors for typhus, malaria, for smallpox. And so I think by the time that Europeans come back in force about a century later in the early 1600s, there's not much evidence left of these people. The villages are now gone and it's just kind of pure jungle.

And so there's one Portuguese chronicler who says, you know, these indigenous peoples here in Brazil, they're not like the ones in the Andes or in Mesoamerica. They live in disorder. You know, they're godless, lawless, they're leaderless. And I think that, you know, you mentioned the idea of the Amazon being a land without history.

That was famously the conclusion of this Brazilian geographer called Euclides da Cunha. who helped map out Brazil's borders with Peru, and he said, this is a land without history. And I think that idea really has persisted until quite recently. Archaeologists, particularly ones from the United States who came down to Brazil in the 40s and 50s,

They said, well, look, the soil here in the Amazon has always been washed away by its downpours. There's no stone. There's not enough metal for tools. There's no big animals to hunt. So this is not really a hospitable place. It's really hostile. And even Brazil's military dictatorship in the 70s encourages people to come and settle the Amazon.

And the slogan is a land without men for men without land. And even today, you have conservationists who I think mean very well, but they will tell you when they're doing their funding drives, they'll say, you know, the Amazon, as I call it, is a vast, untamed wilderness. So the notion of Amazonia as this kind of backwater on the edge of world history, I think is pretty alive and kicking.