Katja Adler
Appearances
Global News Podcast
The Global Story: Does Trump’s return threaten the future of Nato?
With Ukraine on the back foot against Moscow and European security in jeopardy, NATO has got a new chief, Mark Rutter, who's been dubbed the Trump whisperer. In his first major speech in his new job, he's called for NATO members to switch to a wartime mindset and seriously boost defence spending. Can he save NATO by persuading the incoming US president to stay on board?
Global News Podcast
The Global Story: Does Trump’s return threaten the future of Nato?
For many in Europe, that war does seem far away and they don't want to reduce spending on social security, for example, in order to give more to the defence budget. And Mark Ritter is saying that Europe is short-sighted because there's not only a threat of unconventional warfare, but also conventional warfare. He says in four or five years' time, there could be long-range missiles from Russia in
Global News Podcast
The Global Story: Does Trump’s return threaten the future of Nato?
to the United Kingdom, into The Hague in the Netherlands. That's what he told me. How likely is it that Russia under Vladimir Putin would roll the tanks into a NATO member state like Poland, compared to disinformation, misinformation, cyber attacks, or critical infrastructure like those internet cables for financial transactions?
Global News Podcast
The Global Story: Does Trump’s return threaten the future of Nato?
Do you see that as credible or is this scare tactics?
Global News Podcast
The Global Story: Does Trump’s return threaten the future of Nato?
If Donald Trump reduces military support, if he does concentrate on Asia, for example, and turns his back more on Europe, can Europe go it alone? Yes, there's talks about not just agreeing this 2% of GDP spending, which was agreed 10 years ago, but 2.5, that's what the UK is aiming for, three possibly in the near future, if that's possible. Is that enough? How worried should Europeans feel?
Global News Podcast
The Global Story: Does Trump’s return threaten the future of Nato?
But could Europe go it alone in terms of defence?
Global News Podcast
The Global Story: Does Trump’s return threaten the future of Nato?
With me today is the BBC's defence correspondent, Jonathan Beale. Hi, Jonathan.
Global News Podcast
The Global Story: Does Trump’s return threaten the future of Nato?
Jonathan Beale in Ukraine, do take care and thank you very much.
Global News Podcast
The Global Story: Does Trump’s return threaten the future of Nato?
Thanks for having us in your headphones. Goodbye.
Global News Podcast
The Global Story: Does Trump’s return threaten the future of Nato?
Hello, I'm Katya Adler, host of the Global Story podcast from the BBC. Each weekday, we break down one big news story with fresh perspectives from journalists around the world.
Global News Podcast
The Global Story: Does Trump’s return threaten the future of Nato?
From artificial intelligence to divisive politics tearing our societies apart, from the movements of money and markets to the human stories that touch our lives, we bring you in-depth insights from across the BBC and beyond. Listen to the Global Story wherever you get your BBC podcasts.
Global News Podcast
The Global Story: Does Trump’s return threaten the future of Nato?
Jonathan, where you are in Ukraine, I mean, it's a very, very tense situation. I mean, we're talking about survival here. So are people paying attention to a new Secretary General of NATO or a speech he might choose to give?
Global News Podcast
The Global Story: Does Trump’s return threaten the future of Nato?
Yes, because there's a lot of talk right now, isn't there, about possible ceasefires. We'll talk about Donald Trump returning to the White House in a minute and what that could mean. And Ukraine is insisting on security guarantees. It believes that comes from NATO. I mean, Jonathan, just tell us a little bit, a potted history about NATO. It was born after the Second World War, wasn't it?
Global News Podcast
The Global Story: Does Trump’s return threaten the future of Nato?
And I mean, when we talk about the allies, I mean, it's a transatlantic military alliance, mainly European, but we have Canada and, of course, the United States, which, and we'll get to this in a moment, of course, foots most of the bill.
Global News Podcast
The Global Story: Does Trump’s return threaten the future of Nato?
And you say it's a defence alliance. That's why there's this quite a complicated dance that us journalists have to make, isn't there, Jonathan, that when we say NATO is providing military support to Ukraine, that would be incorrect. It's NATO member states providing support. NATO itself can't do that directly.
Global News Podcast
The Global Story: Does Trump’s return threaten the future of Nato?
And if we listen, though, to Vladimir Putin, he does not see NATO as a defensive alliance. He sees it as an offensive alliance and says there's been steady creep towards the east, towards Russia. And that's why he was forced to take action in Ukraine.
Global News Podcast
The Global Story: Does Trump’s return threaten the future of Nato?
Sometimes with information warfare going on also all around Europe, you do feel a certain sympathy for that argument in parts of Europe. I mean, in parts of Italy, I've come across it. In Germany, I've come across it.
Global News Podcast
The Global Story: Does Trump’s return threaten the future of Nato?
Which brings us back to where you are now in Ukraine, which wants so much to be a NATO member state. It says that it doesn't accept that it can't join NATO, even if Russia is occupying part of the country, because when Germany was split East and West… After the Second World War, under communist rule in the East and the Western democracy, the Western part was allowed to join NATO.
Global News Podcast
The Global Story: Does Trump’s return threaten the future of Nato?
So Ukraine says it should be allowed to do that as well. There are voices in Europe who say, well, that'll just encourage Vladimir Putin to attack more in Ukraine and elsewhere in Europe. How does it feel where you are?
Global News Podcast
The Global Story: Does Trump’s return threaten the future of Nato?
And that is looking to the future, whether there could be NATO membership for Ukraine. What about the present? Donald Trump is returning to the White House. He was no NATO fan. Earlier this year, he said he would encourage Russia to attack NATO members that don't pay their way.
Global News Podcast
The Global Story: Does Trump’s return threaten the future of Nato?
You got to pay your bills. How worried should NATO be? Because Mark Rutter brushed off suggestions that Donald Trump might walk out the NATO door.
Global News Podcast
The Global Story: Does Trump’s return threaten the future of Nato?
the re-election of Donald Trump marks what's perhaps the most uncertain moment in the history of the NATO military alliance. Well, that is, since the last time he was president. But that was before large-scale warfare returned to Europe with Russia's full-scale invasion of Ukraine, aided militarily and otherwise by North Korea, Iran and China.
Global News Podcast
The Global Story: Does Trump’s return threaten the future of Nato?
So we've looked at what's going on in Ukraine and NATO's role. Will Donald Trump stay the course? And could Europe go alone in terms of defence if it has to?
Global News Podcast
The Global Story: Does Trump’s return threaten the future of Nato?
This is The Global Story. We bring you one big international story in detail five days a week. Follow or subscribe wherever you listen. With me is Jonathan Beale. Jonathan, how likely is Mark Rutte the new secretary general? How likely is it he will keep Donald Trump on board? He does have a nickname as the Trump whisperer.
Global News Podcast
The Global Story: Does Trump’s return threaten the future of Nato?
He certainly wasn't chosen as the new secretary general because the Netherlands, he's former prime minister of the Netherlands. has a good track record in defence spending because it was very known to be low when he was prime minister for 14 years.
Global News Podcast
The Global Story: Does Trump’s return threaten the future of Nato?
NATO is a transatlantic military alliance and it's largely funded by the United States. But America first Donald Trump thinks it's a very bad deal.
Global News Podcast
The Global Story: Does Trump’s return threaten the future of Nato?
So we're talking about Mark Rutte here, the new NATO Secretary General. He gave his big first speech just the other day here in Brussels and I sat down with him straight after. The United States, Donald Trump, he says Europe has to pay its way. Are you worried if Europe doesn't up its spending that he could turn his back on this transatlantic alliance?
Global News Podcast
The Global Story: Does Trump’s return threaten the future of Nato?
I noticed when I spoke to Mark Rutter that he was using a very similar technique. It's flattery to Donald Trump. It was the same flattery that he used in 2018. You're right, Donald Trump. You're right. We do all need to spend a lot more on defence. So even though he was speaking to Europeans here in Brussels...
Global News Podcast
The Global Story: Does Trump’s return threaten the future of Nato?
Actually, I felt a lot of this message was directed towards the United States, towards the incoming president. So there's flattery. And also the fact that when he was at Trump's Mar-a-Lago estate just at the end of November, he was also using that tactic of Donald Trump wanting to be on top of things, a winner, to put America first. And he was saying, you know...
Global News Podcast
The Global Story: Does Trump’s return threaten the future of Nato?
What's happening in Ukraine isn't just about Russia-Ukraine, because if there's a bad peace deal for Ukraine in here, then there's going to be a massive high five between Russia, North Korea, China and Iran as well. And so he's hoping to persuade the United States that it's in its interest to remain invested in European security. Will Donald Trump be persuaded?