Kathy O'Neill
Appearances
Debt Heads
S1.E1. The Secret Life of Debt Heads
There's plenty of evidence. Shaming actually doesn't help. It's like somebody's got a problem, and shaming them makes their problem worse.
Debt Heads
S1.E1. The Secret Life of Debt Heads
It often leads to one of two kinds of behavior, especially with respect to debt. And one of them is where people just, they don't want their friends and family to see their problems, so they avoid talking about money. They avoid thinking about money. They make their problems worse in a very direct sense because it's just too shameful for them to handle.
Debt Heads
S1.E1. The Secret Life of Debt Heads
That is a direct consequence of us of making it that way, making it shameful. And another response is when people sort of pretend it's not true. And so they overspend and they like treat people to stuff and they do things that to compensate. It's like a compensation type of behavior.
Debt Heads
S1.E1. The Secret Life of Debt Heads
So shame only works with respect to norms. You should be following the rules. And if you're not following the rules, then shame on you. The research I've done is sort of to investigate when is telling someone to follow the rules punching down? Like when is it actually an unreasonable demand? And for the most part, that's around the question of choice. Does anybody choose to get old?
Debt Heads
S1.E1. The Secret Life of Debt Heads
Does anybody choose to be in debt? Does anybody choose to be addicted to opioids? The answer is no, nobody chooses those things. I'm not saying there's zero control over any of that at all. I'm saying that nobody would actually choose that stuff. And yet we have an intense amount of shame around those topics. We have an intense amount of perceived morality around those topics.
Debt Heads
S1.E1. The Secret Life of Debt Heads
We have to say, do those rules make sense? Can people actually follow them? Versus is this just something that's convenient for other people to police because it makes them feel separated from the problem?
Debt Heads
S1.E1. The Secret Life of Debt Heads
What do you mean tell her? You didn't tell me to tell her.