Kat Tenbarge

I definitely listened to Grimes growing up in Ohio. and being like, wow, this music is so interesting. It's like nothing I've ever heard before. And I actually really bonded with one of my ex-girlfriends who I dated growing up in Ohio over Grimes. So I feel like that contributes to the gay teenager bedroom narrative.

I definitely listened to Grimes growing up in Ohio. and being like, wow, this music is so interesting. It's like nothing I've ever heard before. And I actually really bonded with one of my ex-girlfriends who I dated growing up in Ohio over Grimes. So I feel like that contributes to the gay teenager bedroom narrative.

I also found Grimes really interesting and resonant for me within that Tumblr culture, like specifically like

I also found Grimes really interesting and resonant for me within that Tumblr culture, like specifically like

social justice warrior culture because Grimes would talk about like being a woman producer and like not being taken seriously because she was a woman and like not being viewed as like someone who was pioneering or popularizing like a very new style of music and also Oblivion I'm pretty sure has like something to do like the meaning of the song with like being assaulted or like being preyed on and so

social justice warrior culture because Grimes would talk about like being a woman producer and like not being taken seriously because she was a woman and like not being viewed as like someone who was pioneering or popularizing like a very new style of music and also Oblivion I'm pretty sure has like something to do like the meaning of the song with like being assaulted or like being preyed on and so

I always think about that when I think about like the trajectory that her life took is that when she started out, I think maybe a lot of what she was saying and doing that like seemed progressive was like more pseudo intellectualism than actual progressivism.

I always think about that when I think about like the trajectory that her life took is that when she started out, I think maybe a lot of what she was saying and doing that like seemed progressive was like more pseudo intellectualism than actual progressivism.

But for a while, it felt like she was a part of the like more leftist, liberal side of the internet and famously like jumping ahead a little bit. But famously, her bio when she first started dating Elon was initially like pro communism.

But for a while, it felt like she was a part of the like more leftist, liberal side of the internet and famously like jumping ahead a little bit. But famously, her bio when she first started dating Elon was initially like pro communism.

oh it was yes it was anti-imperialist which yeah we are we are jumping ahead a little bit but after their relationship progressed she took anti-imperialist out of her bio which like i don't know at least she was self-aware enough to do that i feel like throughout her whole career and especially in retrospect you can see how she took big words and just like used them and didn't really understand what they meant but liked the aesthetic of like using these like big words and like

oh it was yes it was anti-imperialist which yeah we are we are jumping ahead a little bit but after their relationship progressed she took anti-imperialist out of her bio which like i don't know at least she was self-aware enough to do that i feel like throughout her whole career and especially in retrospect you can see how she took big words and just like used them and didn't really understand what they meant but liked the aesthetic of like using these like big words and like

I've heard people talk about it, but I could not like explain it to you.

I've heard people talk about it, but I could not like explain it to you.

When you look at Grimes' music, it intensified around when she started dating Elon. But she's been talking about how amazing it would be for AI to take over the world for a long time.

When you look at Grimes' music, it intensified around when she started dating Elon. But she's been talking about how amazing it would be for AI to take over the world for a long time.

Yes. And like, I totally agree with everything you said, Taylor. And I think it's such good context. And I feel like the way that Grimes makes music is wrapped up in like techno optimism because she talks about how like she didn't have any actual skill at music. She created all of her songs through like

Yes. And like, I totally agree with everything you said, Taylor. And I think it's such good context. And I feel like the way that Grimes makes music is wrapped up in like techno optimism because she talks about how like she didn't have any actual skill at music. She created all of her songs through like

garage band and like technology of the time it was very like I'm gonna make a movie on my iPhone like style like making music and in her lyricism and in like her personal brand she'll say things like I'm getting experimental surgery on my eyes like she'll make things up and she'll troll and

garage band and like technology of the time it was very like I'm gonna make a movie on my iPhone like style like making music and in her lyricism and in like her personal brand she'll say things like I'm getting experimental surgery on my eyes like she'll make things up and she'll troll and

And I think that she purposefully does this because it's convenient for her if she says something that isn't actually smart. She just creates this aura of like, you'll never know. Am I trolling or am I serious? Or do I really understand these things? Or is it all part of the bit? And I think that kind of helps her.

And I think that she purposefully does this because it's convenient for her if she says something that isn't actually smart. She just creates this aura of like, you'll never know. Am I trolling or am I serious? Or do I really understand these things? Or is it all part of the bit? And I think that kind of helps her.

construct a like reasonable doubt around whether she's truly a pseudo intellectual or not because sometimes she'll do really blatant trolling where she's like i'm putting ai in my brain today like i'm going under the knife and then other times she'll say things where she's like acting as if she's serious but there's no real substance to what she's saying i would like to take a quick break from the show to shout out factor for making this episode possible

construct a like reasonable doubt around whether she's truly a pseudo intellectual or not because sometimes she'll do really blatant trolling where she's like i'm putting ai in my brain today like i'm going under the knife and then other times she'll say things where she's like acting as if she's serious but there's no real substance to what she's saying i would like to take a quick break from the show to shout out factor for making this episode possible

I think it's really funny. Like you can see already the seeds that are being planted for what she's going to name her future children. It reminds me, it's just so firmly rooted in Tumblr culture to me because it's like, there is like a little bit of a pseudo intellectualism to it, but it's really just like kind of like goofy and silly.

I think it's really funny. Like you can see already the seeds that are being planted for what she's going to name her future children. It reminds me, it's just so firmly rooted in Tumblr culture to me because it's like, there is like a little bit of a pseudo intellectualism to it, but it's really just like kind of like goofy and silly.

And I think the fact that she would go on to name her kids like such like outrageous names shows sort of the transition from like a more playful, immature, all in good fun kind of use of this naming style to like, all of a sudden it went zero to 100. Like, oh no, this is like the air of the fake US president.

And I think the fact that she would go on to name her kids like such like outrageous names shows sort of the transition from like a more playful, immature, all in good fun kind of use of this naming style to like, all of a sudden it went zero to 100. Like, oh no, this is like the air of the fake US president.

I remember because I was at a particular high point of listening to Grimes all the time, re-listening to like the classics from the earlier era and also listening to some of her newer stuff when she popped out at the Met Gala with Elon Musk. And I remember that moment like so vividly and just being like, this isn't good.

I remember because I was at a particular high point of listening to Grimes all the time, re-listening to like the classics from the earlier era and also listening to some of her newer stuff when she popped out at the Met Gala with Elon Musk. And I remember that moment like so vividly and just being like, this isn't good.

Like I, even though Elon Musk, and I think people forget that at the point when he and Grimes popped out together, he was, it was like, people were like power couple. Like, People loved him. They loved him. And I think I was even at the time as a Grimes fan kind of like, I don't know about this.

Like I, even though Elon Musk, and I think people forget that at the point when he and Grimes popped out together, he was, it was like, people were like power couple. Like, People loved him. They loved him. And I think I was even at the time as a Grimes fan kind of like, I don't know about this.

But it was really interesting to me the way that they allegedly like met is that Grimes had made a pun involving like Rococo's basilisk.

But it was really interesting to me the way that they allegedly like met is that Grimes had made a pun involving like Rococo's basilisk.

and then the art style or roco's basilisk or something basilisk and then the art style rococo so she made like a pun rococo's basilisk and used it in a music video which is very like I think it lends itself to what we've been talking about in terms of like there's something there that's like interesting and creative and I think if it was disconnected from Elon Musk I'd be like how interesting what a night what a nice young lady but instead

and then the art style or roco's basilisk or something basilisk and then the art style rococo so she made like a pun rococo's basilisk and used it in a music video which is very like I think it lends itself to what we've been talking about in terms of like there's something there that's like interesting and creative and I think if it was disconnected from Elon Musk I'd be like how interesting what a night what a nice young lady but instead

but instead elon musk like also thought of this separately supposedly and googled it to see if anyone else had come up with this pun and when he saw that grimes had he like dm'd her on twitter and at the time it was like meet cute like the rest is history and unfortunately the rest is literally history as are our rights exactly oh that's dark

but instead elon musk like also thought of this separately supposedly and googled it to see if anyone else had come up with this pun and when he saw that grimes had he like dm'd her on twitter and at the time it was like meet cute like the rest is history and unfortunately the rest is literally history as are our rights exactly oh that's dark

Imagine what he would act like if he was just at like a bar. He would be so awkward.

Imagine what he would act like if he was just at like a bar. He would be so awkward.

And I think he I think he saw Grimes and spotted her and kind of immediately picked up on like ways he could maybe manipulate her by feeding into like the weirdness and being really congratulatory of it. Even if it was like he did not ultimately respect her.

And I think he I think he saw Grimes and spotted her and kind of immediately picked up on like ways he could maybe manipulate her by feeding into like the weirdness and being really congratulatory of it. Even if it was like he did not ultimately respect her.

I think in the beginning of their relationship, undoubtedly, she did not think of him as, like, this bigoted, fascist individual.

I think in the beginning of their relationship, undoubtedly, she did not think of him as, like, this bigoted, fascist individual.

And we know this because, like, early on in their relationship, as he was very publicly radicalized, whether or not that's what he always believed, she seemed to think that that was not who he really was because of the famous, like, hate is not in your heart, pick up the phone and give me a doll.

And we know this because, like, early on in their relationship, as he was very publicly radicalized, whether or not that's what he always believed, she seemed to think that that was not who he really was because of the famous, like, hate is not in your heart, pick up the phone and give me a doll.

And I do, I think we kind of just said this, but I just am like, there's this perception that Grimes got with Elon Musk because he's the horrible person he very publicly is today. And there's also a perception that she knew exactly what she was getting into and she wanted a relationship with this man.

And I do, I think we kind of just said this, but I just am like, there's this perception that Grimes got with Elon Musk because he's the horrible person he very publicly is today. And there's also a perception that she knew exactly what she was getting into and she wanted a relationship with this man.

And I think that that is always bad rhetoric with abuse victims because it's like, at the end of the day, even if someone made really bad choices in terms of pursuing a relationship, I just think it's like bad to say that someone wanted like an abusive relationship.

And I think that that is always bad rhetoric with abuse victims because it's like, at the end of the day, even if someone made really bad choices in terms of pursuing a relationship, I just think it's like bad to say that someone wanted like an abusive relationship.

And I also think that like in the case of Grimes going back to 2018, I definitely don't think that she had any idea of what was going to happen because I don't think most people did.

And I also think that like in the case of Grimes going back to 2018, I definitely don't think that she had any idea of what was going to happen because I don't think most people did.

I think it's a hallmark of abusers to showcase very intentionally show one side of yourself at the beginning of a relationship. This is something that almost every abuser does because most abusers are very cognizant of what they are doing. And by the time Elon had met Grimes, he had already been with other women.

I think it's a hallmark of abusers to showcase very intentionally show one side of yourself at the beginning of a relationship. This is something that almost every abuser does because most abusers are very cognizant of what they are doing. And by the time Elon had met Grimes, he had already been with other women.

And we have heard about various abusive dynamics within those relationships, including his first wife, Justine. She wrote about this. I think for Marie Claire in like 2013 or like 2014.

And we have heard about various abusive dynamics within those relationships, including his first wife, Justine. She wrote about this. I think for Marie Claire in like 2013 or like 2014.

And so we know that Elon had this pattern that from what other women have described as kind of like love bombing, where at the beginning of the relationship, he is really doting, presents himself as like, I'm going to save you. Like I have so many resources. I have so much money and I care so much about you. Like I'm going to be the best thing that's ever happened to you.

And so we know that Elon had this pattern that from what other women have described as kind of like love bombing, where at the beginning of the relationship, he is really doting, presents himself as like, I'm going to save you. Like I have so many resources. I have so much money and I care so much about you. Like I'm going to be the best thing that's ever happened to you.

And we know he did this to Amber Heard. Coming in and being like, I'm going to save you from your abusive relationship with Johnny Depp. We know he did this to Justine where it was like she wasn't that interested in him in college, but he like persistently was like, I'm going to really make something out of my life and I want you to be with me.

And we know he did this to Amber Heard. Coming in and being like, I'm going to save you from your abusive relationship with Johnny Depp. We know he did this to Justine where it was like she wasn't that interested in him in college, but he like persistently was like, I'm going to really make something out of my life and I want you to be with me.

There seemed to be parts of this in his relationship with Tallulah Riley because it happened super quickly after he left Justine. And so I think that most likely, based on Elon's patterns with all of these women, I think he probably presented a very different side of himself to Grimes.

There seemed to be parts of this in his relationship with Tallulah Riley because it happened super quickly after he left Justine. And so I think that most likely, based on Elon's patterns with all of these women, I think he probably presented a very different side of himself to Grimes.

And then not too long after their relationship, you know, took on a definition that she would never be able to fully escape from, which is that she had children with him. Once you have children with someone, you're kind of stuck with them as long as they're alive.

And then not too long after their relationship, you know, took on a definition that she would never be able to fully escape from, which is that she had children with him. Once you have children with someone, you're kind of stuck with them as long as they're alive.

And as soon as he kind of had her like in this position of being stuck with him, that's when you really publicly see the unraveling of Grimes publicly being like, I don't recognize this person. This is not who I got together with. I don't believe this is who you are. And that is so sad to me because it is just such a common and in fact, the most common trajectory of an abusive relationship.

And as soon as he kind of had her like in this position of being stuck with him, that's when you really publicly see the unraveling of Grimes publicly being like, I don't recognize this person. This is not who I got together with. I don't believe this is who you are. And that is so sad to me because it is just such a common and in fact, the most common trajectory of an abusive relationship.

It's also like there are two contradictory societal narratives at once, which is that as a woman in particular in a heterosexual relationship, you are encouraged to try to fix relationships, especially if you have children with a man in a relationship. If you're a woman, you are actually by the court ordered to try to repair that relationship versus cut that person off.

It's also like there are two contradictory societal narratives at once, which is that as a woman in particular in a heterosexual relationship, you are encouraged to try to fix relationships, especially if you have children with a man in a relationship. If you're a woman, you are actually by the court ordered to try to repair that relationship versus cut that person off.

And so through the court system, abusive relationships that involve children are essentially mandated. We mandate that victims remain in close proximity with their abuser. We mandate that they share child care responsibilities with them. And oftentimes, we mandate through our legal system that they spend extended periods of time immersed in their abuser's life, in their homes, in their ideologies.

And so through the court system, abusive relationships that involve children are essentially mandated. We mandate that victims remain in close proximity with their abuser. We mandate that they share child care responsibilities with them. And oftentimes, we mandate through our legal system that they spend extended periods of time immersed in their abuser's life, in their homes, in their ideologies.

And so I think that like once Grimes passed that point, she was kind of trapped. And that's not even like taking into account the fact that contrary to popular belief, Grimes and Elon were never married. He doesn't owe her anything. First time she was pregnant with X, that was a really big deal. Like as a fan still at the time who was like, I hate this relationship. I want them to break up.

And so I think that like once Grimes passed that point, she was kind of trapped. And that's not even like taking into account the fact that contrary to popular belief, Grimes and Elon were never married. He doesn't owe her anything. First time she was pregnant with X, that was a really big deal. Like as a fan still at the time who was like, I hate this relationship. I want them to break up.

When she announced she was pregnant with his baby, I was like, fuck.

When she announced she was pregnant with his baby, I was like, fuck.

I was just like, I remember kind of watching helplessly from the sidelines because I was like, you know, at the time when Grimes and Elon's relationship was starting to develop. There was also simultaneously like the emergence of Elon Musk's radicalization in the public eye. I was like, this is so bad. Like she needs to break up with this horrible man. And instead they had a kid together.

I was just like, I remember kind of watching helplessly from the sidelines because I was like, you know, at the time when Grimes and Elon's relationship was starting to develop. There was also simultaneously like the emergence of Elon Musk's radicalization in the public eye. I was like, this is so bad. Like she needs to break up with this horrible man. And instead they had a kid together.

That was a whole public ordeal, particularly around like they give the child this keyboard smash name.

That was a whole public ordeal, particularly around like they give the child this keyboard smash name.

then for the second and the third child for whatever reason and this is like a big red flag they tried to hide them they tried to like hide those pregnancies from the public a reporter discovered that they had had either the second or third child they did an interview at grimes's house and they heard the baby crying and they're like did you and elon have another baby

then for the second and the third child for whatever reason and this is like a big red flag they tried to hide them they tried to like hide those pregnancies from the public a reporter discovered that they had had either the second or third child they did an interview at grimes's house and they heard the baby crying and they're like did you and elon have another baby

And we now know that Elon does this with different women. He like, he like encourages them as the relationship is clearly not equitable, as there are clearly signs of like abuse or coercion or whatever in the relationship. He's also like, let's have another baby. So he's done that to multiple women now. And he definitely did that to Grimes.

And we now know that Elon does this with different women. He like, he like encourages them as the relationship is clearly not equitable, as there are clearly signs of like abuse or coercion or whatever in the relationship. He's also like, let's have another baby. So he's done that to multiple women now. And he definitely did that to Grimes.

Yes. So around this time after Grimes had had X, which is nothing to say of his full name, after Grimes had that kid, people in her fandom in particular were starting to get really worried because this is around the time that you started to see tweets and stuff that suggested bad things were happening behind the scenes with Elon and Grimes. And the custody battle was

Yes. So around this time after Grimes had had X, which is nothing to say of his full name, after Grimes had that kid, people in her fandom in particular were starting to get really worried because this is around the time that you started to see tweets and stuff that suggested bad things were happening behind the scenes with Elon and Grimes. And the custody battle was

like kicked into effect because Grimes was trying to get a legal sort of parental arrangement, like acknowledging that Elon is the father of these three children so that she can have legal rights to them. And what we know from like the court documents themselves and like the official narrative is supplemented by the fact that Grimes will often tweet and often she'll delete them.

like kicked into effect because Grimes was trying to get a legal sort of parental arrangement, like acknowledging that Elon is the father of these three children so that she can have legal rights to them. And what we know from like the court documents themselves and like the official narrative is supplemented by the fact that Grimes will often tweet and often she'll delete them.

But like Grimes frequently tweets and gives these little like bits and pieces of insight into what her portrayal of these events are. But after she starts trying to go through the courts to establish parenthood, then they start disputing over whether the children live in California or Texas. And the custody battle is in Texas. So Grimes wanted to move it to California.

But like Grimes frequently tweets and gives these little like bits and pieces of insight into what her portrayal of these events are. But after she starts trying to go through the courts to establish parenthood, then they start disputing over whether the children live in California or Texas. And the custody battle is in Texas. So Grimes wanted to move it to California.

and said that the youngest two children were with her full time in California and that the only child who was in Texas was X. And X is the one who Elon constantly is parading around in public, has him on his shoulders, has him in the White House. From the time that he was a little boy, X has been the very public child who Elon takes around with him. And it is super bizarre.

and said that the youngest two children were with her full time in California and that the only child who was in Texas was X. And X is the one who Elon constantly is parading around in public, has him on his shoulders, has him in the White House. From the time that he was a little boy, X has been the very public child who Elon takes around with him. And it is super bizarre.

And like Grimes has hinged kind of her argument around this, that it is like not what she wants as his mother. And it is like not consistent with the other children, the way that he parades X around specifically. And it's like, he has children who are X's age with other women who he's not doing this with.

And like Grimes has hinged kind of her argument around this, that it is like not what she wants as his mother. And it is like not consistent with the other children, the way that he parades X around specifically. And it's like, he has children who are X's age with other women who he's not doing this with.

It's like he picked this one kid and in the custody battle, Grimes is like, I haven't seen X for five months. I can't see my son. I don't want him to have this level of public visibility, but Elon won't comply with my wishes. And the custody battle is really, really ugly. A lot of it is sealed from public view. Most of it is, but she reveals on Twitter that,

It's like he picked this one kid and in the custody battle, Grimes is like, I haven't seen X for five months. I can't see my son. I don't want him to have this level of public visibility, but Elon won't comply with my wishes. And the custody battle is really, really ugly. A lot of it is sealed from public view. Most of it is, but she reveals on Twitter that,

She says that like her modeling photos were used against her in the courtroom. Like she basically said that Elon used like probably tried to portray her as like sexually promiscuous, which is just like so gross, but such a common thing used against mothers in custody battles. What she like described happening is so consistent with what women from all backgrounds and like all backgrounds

She says that like her modeling photos were used against her in the courtroom. Like she basically said that Elon used like probably tried to portray her as like sexually promiscuous, which is just like so gross, but such a common thing used against mothers in custody battles. What she like described happening is so consistent with what women from all backgrounds and like all backgrounds

histories and experiences go through in custody battles. She said she was going bankrupt because of these custody battles. She said that Elon obviously has the most resources out of everyone in the world. He is the richest person on the planet. And she was like, I have such a difficult time

histories and experiences go through in custody battles. She said she was going bankrupt because of these custody battles. She said that Elon obviously has the most resources out of everyone in the world. He is the richest person on the planet. And she was like, I have such a difficult time

fighting this against him and she also said at that point that it was like someone who she no longer recognized as compared to the man who she had met um and she basically said that like she was fighting to stop her kids from getting taken away from her another really interesting thing during sort of this whole custody battle era which did wrap up finally with some sort of settlement but as this was all going on Grimes's mother actually tweeted at Elon and was like

fighting this against him and she also said at that point that it was like someone who she no longer recognized as compared to the man who she had met um and she basically said that like she was fighting to stop her kids from getting taken away from her another really interesting thing during sort of this whole custody battle era which did wrap up finally with some sort of settlement but as this was all going on Grimes's mother actually tweeted at Elon and was like

Grimes is trying to take the kids to see her dying grandmother and you will not like relinquish them to her or give her their like passport documentation so that they can do this. Like, please don't do something. This is breaking my daughter's heart and my mother's heart.

Grimes is trying to take the kids to see her dying grandmother and you will not like relinquish them to her or give her their like passport documentation so that they can do this. Like, please don't do something. This is breaking my daughter's heart and my mother's heart.

And with all of this stuff being so publicly out there, I just have always found it so like surreal and ultimately unsurprising, but very disappointing that people don't like talk about how blatant this

And with all of this stuff being so publicly out there, I just have always found it so like surreal and ultimately unsurprising, but very disappointing that people don't like talk about how blatant this

all of this mistreatment of his kids and Grimes and her family is and how egregious it is that she has so little resources compared to him and that he's putting her and the children through all of this.

all of this mistreatment of his kids and Grimes and her family is and how egregious it is that she has so little resources compared to him and that he's putting her and the children through all of this.

I am extremely excited to be talking about Grimes. I'm always ready to talk about her.

I am extremely excited to be talking about Grimes. I'm always ready to talk about her.

I think that throughout Grimes' career and what we've talked about, you see the perfect conditions for radicalization form. Because like we talked about at the very beginning, when Grimes emerged as a musician, I think she was undeniably extremely talented, but was often sort of not given her due and had kind of this...

I think that throughout Grimes' career and what we've talked about, you see the perfect conditions for radicalization form. Because like we talked about at the very beginning, when Grimes emerged as a musician, I think she was undeniably extremely talented, but was often sort of not given her due and had kind of this...

tense back and forth with the media, like broadly speaking, because I think she also dealt with a lot of misogyny and sexism from the media and from parts of the media that are not like the same parts of the media that are calling her out now.

tense back and forth with the media, like broadly speaking, because I think she also dealt with a lot of misogyny and sexism from the media and from parts of the media that are not like the same parts of the media that are calling her out now.

But I think a lot of people in that position just sort of naturally start to associate anything that falls under the umbrella of the media with like negative bad treatment they've gotten.

But I think a lot of people in that position just sort of naturally start to associate anything that falls under the umbrella of the media with like negative bad treatment they've gotten.

And to some degree, like you said, Taylor, I think that for a lot of women in the public eye, that is fair because a lot of times as a woman in the public eye, even the best media outlets still treat you through a misogynistic lens. So I think coming into her relationship with Elon was,

And to some degree, like you said, Taylor, I think that for a lot of women in the public eye, that is fair because a lot of times as a woman in the public eye, even the best media outlets still treat you through a misogynistic lens. So I think coming into her relationship with Elon was,

grimes was already sort of in this like standoff with the media the way her relationship gets covered i think really like upset her and then as the relationship in her personal life starts to really visibly become abusive I think like you see a lot of effects and consequences of that that only further open her up to radicalization.

grimes was already sort of in this like standoff with the media the way her relationship gets covered i think really like upset her and then as the relationship in her personal life starts to really visibly become abusive I think like you see a lot of effects and consequences of that that only further open her up to radicalization.

For example, during the custody battle, she tweeted that her daily schedule would be like sleeping, eating, crying and going to court. And I just think that someone who is in that kind of survival mode where it feels like the world is against you. And in the case of fighting the richest man on the planet for your children, the world kind of is against.

For example, during the custody battle, she tweeted that her daily schedule would be like sleeping, eating, crying and going to court. And I just think that someone who is in that kind of survival mode where it feels like the world is against you. And in the case of fighting the richest man on the planet for your children, the world kind of is against.

stacked against you like i can see why she became so vulnerable that like it was just perfect breeding ground for radicalization and i'll also say that like that's not an excuse because a lot of people who are in really heinous horrible situations do not become radicalized right

stacked against you like i can see why she became so vulnerable that like it was just perfect breeding ground for radicalization and i'll also say that like that's not an excuse because a lot of people who are in really heinous horrible situations do not become radicalized right

I think this more has to do with like the path she went down and the path Elon went down are both because of like who they are. And she's not like a violent, abusive individual in the same way that he is. But she like has co-signed on this rhetoric. And some of the really bad stuff that she's done over the years has included like following white supremacist neo-Nazis on Twitter.

I think this more has to do with like the path she went down and the path Elon went down are both because of like who they are. And she's not like a violent, abusive individual in the same way that he is. But she like has co-signed on this rhetoric. And some of the really bad stuff that she's done over the years has included like following white supremacist neo-Nazis on Twitter.

I just saw Trisha Paytas and my jaw was like.

I just saw Trisha Paytas and my jaw was like.

It reminds me really significantly, like over the past few years, like since 2018, since like the height of the Me Too movement, I have noticed multiple women who were like high profile accusers in the Me Too movement who have been radicalized and radicalized hard. Tara Reid is like a really good example because she is like literally like in Russia and

It reminds me really significantly, like over the past few years, like since 2018, since like the height of the Me Too movement, I have noticed multiple women who were like high profile accusers in the Me Too movement who have been radicalized and radicalized hard. Tara Reid is like a really good example because she is like literally like in Russia and

And I think Rose McGowan also has like said some pretty concerning stuff. At first, when I saw these women getting radicalized, it confused me because I was like, how could you be drawn to such a like toxic and like patriarchal demographic?

And I think Rose McGowan also has like said some pretty concerning stuff. At first, when I saw these women getting radicalized, it confused me because I was like, how could you be drawn to such a like toxic and like patriarchal demographic?

But I think what I eventually realized is that like what these women experienced when they came forward is they saw that they said they saw that same patriarchal misogyny from the left and And that is why they got pushed to the right. Because unfortunately the reality is there is like no justice in any sense for women who go through these types of situations.

But I think what I eventually realized is that like what these women experienced when they came forward is they saw that they said they saw that same patriarchal misogyny from the left and And that is why they got pushed to the right. Because unfortunately the reality is there is like no justice in any sense for women who go through these types of situations.

Like a lot of victims understand that it is not like a left or right thing. It's like, just because the left mistreats you doesn't mean the right's going to treat you any better. But a lot of victims do fall prey to this. Like they are sort of vulnerable to this radicalization. And I've seen examples of this where it's like, I'm like, well, this guy who you now love is a victim blamer.

Like a lot of victims understand that it is not like a left or right thing. It's like, just because the left mistreats you doesn't mean the right's going to treat you any better. But a lot of victims do fall prey to this. Like they are sort of vulnerable to this radicalization. And I've seen examples of this where it's like, I'm like, well, this guy who you now love is a victim blamer.

And they're like, but not to me. Like they're like, but this person showed me kindness and no one is showing me any kindness. And it's like, it's really sad to like see this happen. And I hate it, but it's like, it all comes back to the fact that I think bottom line, like these men, Elon Musk and like his cronies are manipulators, right? They're manipulators.

And they're like, but not to me. Like they're like, but this person showed me kindness and no one is showing me any kindness. And it's like, it's really sad to like see this happen. And I hate it, but it's like, it all comes back to the fact that I think bottom line, like these men, Elon Musk and like his cronies are manipulators, right? They're manipulators.

And it's like, that's the like most important takeaway from this is that he's now done this to so many women, Grimes and others, that it ceases to be about who these women are as individuals. And it's more so about just like, oh, it's the same pattern of abuse. And Elon Musk is abusing all of us now in his position.

And it's like, that's the like most important takeaway from this is that he's now done this to so many women, Grimes and others, that it ceases to be about who these women are as individuals. And it's more so about just like, oh, it's the same pattern of abuse. And Elon Musk is abusing all of us now in his position.

I'm like, what is Trisha going to do on stage?

I'm like, what is Trisha going to do on stage?

So it's like, it just is who he is to his core and he'll do it to any woman he can, right?

So it's like, it just is who he is to his core and he'll do it to any woman he can, right?

I would not ask anyone to feel sympathetic for Grimes because there are a number of reasons why you may not want to be sympathetic toward her.

I would not ask anyone to feel sympathetic for Grimes because there are a number of reasons why you may not want to be sympathetic toward her.

But I do think that in noting that, we can also recognize that victims don't have to be sympathetic and that the way that Elon Musk is victimizing these women, Grimes included, is also reflective of the way that he is victimizing the country at large through all the other actions that he takes in his personal and his professional life.

But I do think that in noting that, we can also recognize that victims don't have to be sympathetic and that the way that Elon Musk is victimizing these women, Grimes included, is also reflective of the way that he is victimizing the country at large through all the other actions that he takes in his personal and his professional life.

And I think with Grimes and defending Elon specifically, it's like, we can look at this behavior sort of objectively for what it is. And it's like, this is a man who has only ever like persistently hurt Grimes. And so for her to come out and defend him after all of that is not a rational position for her to take. It's coming from an irrational place.

And I think with Grimes and defending Elon specifically, it's like, we can look at this behavior sort of objectively for what it is. And it's like, this is a man who has only ever like persistently hurt Grimes. And so for her to come out and defend him after all of that is not a rational position for her to take. It's coming from an irrational place.

And so just because victims act, you know, in some situations irrationally or in a way that is like consequential to others, you know, we we don't have to separate those things out from each other. They can exist at the same time. She can be coming from a place where she's reacting to an abusive relationship and her statement on its own can have negative and harmful consequences.

And so just because victims act, you know, in some situations irrationally or in a way that is like consequential to others, you know, we we don't have to separate those things out from each other. They can exist at the same time. She can be coming from a place where she's reacting to an abusive relationship and her statement on its own can have negative and harmful consequences.

This is actually like a very frequent facet of like domestic violence cases is that there are cascading consequences that affect everybody around the relationship. And so I think that that, that is true of Grimes. And I also think that like, if we just end the conversation at,

This is actually like a very frequent facet of like domestic violence cases is that there are cascading consequences that affect everybody around the relationship. And so I think that that, that is true of Grimes. And I also think that like, if we just end the conversation at,

she's an irredeemable person and we don't feel bad for her, then we're not doing anything to challenge like the rhetoric that underlines Elon's ability to abuse all of these different women. I also think it's important to point out because I refer to the behavior as like rational versus irrational.

she's an irredeemable person and we don't feel bad for her, then we're not doing anything to challenge like the rhetoric that underlines Elon's ability to abuse all of these different women. I also think it's important to point out because I refer to the behavior as like rational versus irrational.

Some things appear irrational to us because we are not privy to what is going on in that relationship. So, for example, this is just a hypothetical. Like sometimes within abusive relationships behind closed doors, the way that abusers treat their victims is irrational.

Some things appear irrational to us because we are not privy to what is going on in that relationship. So, for example, this is just a hypothetical. Like sometimes within abusive relationships behind closed doors, the way that abusers treat their victims is irrational.

they see how far they can push them and things that they can get them to say and do sometimes publicly to sort of like, it's part of the process of coercive control.

they see how far they can push them and things that they can get them to say and do sometimes publicly to sort of like, it's part of the process of coercive control.

Victims will oftentimes like privately and publicly respond with like the fawn response, which is to like tell the abuser that they're a good person, tell them that like they're not being abused, like deny that the abuse is happening because it's a way of like maybe making sure that the abuser is stays calm and doesn't become angry and doesn't flip out on you.

Victims will oftentimes like privately and publicly respond with like the fawn response, which is to like tell the abuser that they're a good person, tell them that like they're not being abused, like deny that the abuse is happening because it's a way of like maybe making sure that the abuser is stays calm and doesn't become angry and doesn't flip out on you.

Or maybe it's a way of like bargaining to try to get things like being able to see your children, for example, or getting your abuser to respond to you if like your child is having a medical emergency. With like the tweeting at Elon, we don't really know what's going on in that relationship because the parties who have knowledge of it haven't told us. All we can really do as bystanders is guess.

Or maybe it's a way of like bargaining to try to get things like being able to see your children, for example, or getting your abuser to respond to you if like your child is having a medical emergency. With like the tweeting at Elon, we don't really know what's going on in that relationship because the parties who have knowledge of it haven't told us. All we can really do as bystanders is guess.

And that is a really imperfect way of handling this situation. But I think that because it's the one we're all in together, you see how people just repeatedly do not give victims the benefit of the doubt. They actually tend to villainize victims and cast the worst possible guess of what is going on in that situation. and project that onto the victim.

And that is a really imperfect way of handling this situation. But I think that because it's the one we're all in together, you see how people just repeatedly do not give victims the benefit of the doubt. They actually tend to villainize victims and cast the worst possible guess of what is going on in that situation. and project that onto the victim.

So I think like knowing what we know, it's fair to say that there are probably elements to Grimes' behavior that involve factors we are not privy to and may make her look more sympathetic or may at least provide like context that we don't have.

So I think like knowing what we know, it's fair to say that there are probably elements to Grimes' behavior that involve factors we are not privy to and may make her look more sympathetic or may at least provide like context that we don't have.

I do think we can be like, oh, this woman is problematic and also be like, oh, it's like so objectively horrifying that people online, everyone kind of agrees that Elon is carrying X around as like a human shield. Imagine if that is your child.

I do think we can be like, oh, this woman is problematic and also be like, oh, it's like so objectively horrifying that people online, everyone kind of agrees that Elon is carrying X around as like a human shield. Imagine if that is your child.

And not only do you have to see everyone basically say that like your kid is going to get assassinated, which is not an impossible thing to happen, but also like his father is not letting you even see him. Like it is so dystopian and horrifying. What Grimes is living through is a straight up horror movie.

And not only do you have to see everyone basically say that like your kid is going to get assassinated, which is not an impossible thing to happen, but also like his father is not letting you even see him. Like it is so dystopian and horrifying. What Grimes is living through is a straight up horror movie.

Yes. So as a disclaimer, we don't care if you don't like vocal fry.

Yes. So as a disclaimer, we don't care if you don't like vocal fry.

And what all of like Elon's baby, the women who have his children, what they're all living through is like a horror movie. And they don't all have to be like good people for that to be the case. The whole thing is wild. It's like, it feels very like palace intrigue-y. Like you're getting this window into the lives of these people. And I don't know what happens.

And what all of like Elon's baby, the women who have his children, what they're all living through is like a horror movie. And they don't all have to be like good people for that to be the case. The whole thing is wild. It's like, it feels very like palace intrigue-y. Like you're getting this window into the lives of these people. And I don't know what happens.

how reflective that is of what's really going on inside. But it does remind me also the last thing I wanted to say, which is, I don't know if you guys have seen that thread. And it's like someone on Twitter was creating like a version of Elon and all the women who are mothers of his children and comparing them to like a royal dynasty, like tropes.

how reflective that is of what's really going on inside. But it does remind me also the last thing I wanted to say, which is, I don't know if you guys have seen that thread. And it's like someone on Twitter was creating like a version of Elon and all the women who are mothers of his children and comparing them to like a royal dynasty, like tropes.

And they were like Grimes is like his ultimate love, but she faces the worst punishment because she refuses to conform. Siobhan is like the one who plays the game the best. And she like her son ultimately gets picked to be like the next person in line. And like they're doing all the different women who Elon has been with. And Grimes responded to this and was like, LOL.

And they were like Grimes is like his ultimate love, but she faces the worst punishment because she refuses to conform. Siobhan is like the one who plays the game the best. And she like her son ultimately gets picked to be like the next person in line. And like they're doing all the different women who Elon has been with. And Grimes responded to this and was like, LOL.

And I was just like, this is so sad. This is dystopian. It's like so reminiscent of historical fiction and how like kings have wives and concubines and all of this historical stuff. And I'm like, this isn't okay that this is happening. And we shouldn't be like glorifying it or like treating it as it's just like palace intrigue about rich, weird people. Like it's kind of like a,

And I was just like, this is so sad. This is dystopian. It's like so reminiscent of historical fiction and how like kings have wives and concubines and all of this historical stuff. And I'm like, this isn't okay that this is happening. And we shouldn't be like glorifying it or like treating it as it's just like palace intrigue about rich, weird people. Like it's kind of like a,

We get these comments every time we do an episode together, which are people will say like, wish I could listen to this, but this vocal fry is unlistable.

We get these comments every time we do an episode together, which are people will say like, wish I could listen to this, but this vocal fry is unlistable.

it's like an act of gender violence that's happening in front of us involving the richest and most influential people in the world. I think that ultimately the biggest story here is not really whether or not Grimes is a person who is redeemable, but rather that Elon Musk is a person who is currently unaccountable. And I think that what is so often lost is

it's like an act of gender violence that's happening in front of us involving the richest and most influential people in the world. I think that ultimately the biggest story here is not really whether or not Grimes is a person who is redeemable, but rather that Elon Musk is a person who is currently unaccountable. And I think that what is so often lost is

is that to consistently oppose abusers and to consistently support victims, that involves cases that are morally gray. And I think that like, it actually more frequently comes off morally gray than it comes off nice and easy because the victim is like so great and easy to support and the abuser is so easy to hold accountable. Like,

is that to consistently oppose abusers and to consistently support victims, that involves cases that are morally gray. And I think that like, it actually more frequently comes off morally gray than it comes off nice and easy because the victim is like so great and easy to support and the abuser is so easy to hold accountable. Like,

I think with these cases, they're so frequently framed as like the outliers because of how rich and famous and celebrity the people involved are. And while I don't want to discount the role that like privilege and other like all these different forms of privilege carry in this situation, one consistent theme throughout this episode has been like what Grimes is experiencing. It's the same playbook.

I think with these cases, they're so frequently framed as like the outliers because of how rich and famous and celebrity the people involved are. And while I don't want to discount the role that like privilege and other like all these different forms of privilege carry in this situation, one consistent theme throughout this episode has been like what Grimes is experiencing. It's the same playbook.

It's the same pattern. as any abusive relationship, love bombing, like hiding who you really are, turning into a different person, the way that the courts and custody system have been weaponized against her. These are things that every victim faces.

It's the same pattern. as any abusive relationship, love bombing, like hiding who you really are, turning into a different person, the way that the courts and custody system have been weaponized against her. These are things that every victim faces.

we we've talked about it multiple times now and we always usually get really helpful comments like there was one on a former video where someone basically pointed out that like like famous men will have vocal fry and no one will care but if like women or like femme coded people have vocal fry then all of a sudden everyone's like i just can't listen to this so yeah we don't care We don't care.

we we've talked about it multiple times now and we always usually get really helpful comments like there was one on a former video where someone basically pointed out that like like famous men will have vocal fry and no one will care but if like women or like femme coded people have vocal fry then all of a sudden everyone's like i just can't listen to this so yeah we don't care We don't care.

And so it's never about like the individual victim and their strengths and weaknesses, but rather it's about what abuse is and what we can do about it. And what we can do about it is we can like acknowledge it because it's you can walk away and be like, I still hate her. I hate everything about her. She's the worst person in the world. As long as you are still like, but he is abusing her.

And so it's never about like the individual victim and their strengths and weaknesses, but rather it's about what abuse is and what we can do about it. And what we can do about it is we can like acknowledge it because it's you can walk away and be like, I still hate her. I hate everything about her. She's the worst person in the world. As long as you are still like, but he is abusing her.

That's like, that's a still positive step in the right direction because we can't do anything about like victimhood and abuse. If we can't even agree on a common definition of what victimhood and abuse are.

That's like, that's a still positive step in the right direction because we can't do anything about like victimhood and abuse. If we can't even agree on a common definition of what victimhood and abuse are.

Thank you for having us. I'm so glad we got to talk about this.

Thank you for having us. I'm so glad we got to talk about this.

I feel like I think about Grimes a lot and it's very surreal to me because I listened to her music a lot even before she was with Elon. And so as the relationship has progressed, it's just gotten more and more dystopian. And she's talked about more now than she ever has been in the past and in like such a reasonably but overwhelmingly negative way.

I feel like I think about Grimes a lot and it's very surreal to me because I listened to her music a lot even before she was with Elon. And so as the relationship has progressed, it's just gotten more and more dystopian. And she's talked about more now than she ever has been in the past and in like such a reasonably but overwhelmingly negative way.

There's so much posted and said about Grimes, but a lot of it does not really get to the heart of what I think is the most important part. about this case and this relationship. And so I'm excited to talk about it because I mean, I just I find her fascinating and so emblematic of this bizarre pop culture political era that we are in right now.

There's so much posted and said about Grimes, but a lot of it does not really get to the heart of what I think is the most important part. about this case and this relationship. And so I'm excited to talk about it because I mean, I just I find her fascinating and so emblematic of this bizarre pop culture political era that we are in right now.

And I feel like this is very much so her brand. She looks like a creature who lives in the woods.

And I feel like this is very much so her brand. She looks like a creature who lives in the woods.

I think so. I think she's always been a troll. And I think she's always enjoyed the idea of, like, telling people things that aren't true about herself to, like, hide who she really is. And I feel like even back in the early days, you can see kind of some of the things that would have made her a good fit for someone like Elon. Yeah.

I think so. I think she's always been a troll. And I think she's always enjoyed the idea of, like, telling people things that aren't true about herself to, like, hide who she really is. And I feel like even back in the early days, you can see kind of some of the things that would have made her a good fit for someone like Elon. Yeah.

Because I think he too enjoys like making things up and being like, I don't sleep at all. Like I just work for days straight. And it's like with Grimes, I will say, I think she's more talented. Like Elon Musk could not make visions. Grimes could pretend to run Tesla, but Elon Musk could not make visions.

Because I think he too enjoys like making things up and being like, I don't sleep at all. Like I just work for days straight. And it's like with Grimes, I will say, I think she's more talented. Like Elon Musk could not make visions. Grimes could pretend to run Tesla, but Elon Musk could not make visions.

so I do think that like she has produced more artistic work than he ever will or would ever be capable of and I actually think that Grimes is like quite talented a lot of times people just paint her with like a brush of like she's always been like this kind of loser figure but I do think that back in this era like she was making really good and interesting music and I think that like you saw hints of what would later become who she who she became

so I do think that like she has produced more artistic work than he ever will or would ever be capable of and I actually think that Grimes is like quite talented a lot of times people just paint her with like a brush of like she's always been like this kind of loser figure but I do think that back in this era like she was making really good and interesting music and I think that like you saw hints of what would later become who she who she became

But at this point, I think she was, like, had a very promising career in front of her.

But at this point, I think she was, like, had a very promising career in front of her.