Kat Tenbarge
Appearances
A Bit Fruity with Matt Bernstein
The Complex Tragedy of Grimes
I definitely listened to Grimes growing up in Ohio. and being like, wow, this music is so interesting. It's like nothing I've ever heard before. And I actually really bonded with one of my ex-girlfriends who I dated growing up in Ohio over Grimes. So I feel like that contributes to the gay teenager bedroom narrative.
A Bit Fruity with Matt Bernstein
The Complex Tragedy of Grimes
I also found Grimes really interesting and resonant for me within that Tumblr culture, like specifically like
A Bit Fruity with Matt Bernstein
The Complex Tragedy of Grimes
social justice warrior culture because Grimes would talk about like being a woman producer and like not being taken seriously because she was a woman and like not being viewed as like someone who was pioneering or popularizing like a very new style of music and also Oblivion I'm pretty sure has like something to do like the meaning of the song with like being assaulted or like being preyed on and so
A Bit Fruity with Matt Bernstein
The Complex Tragedy of Grimes
I always think about that when I think about like the trajectory that her life took is that when she started out, I think maybe a lot of what she was saying and doing that like seemed progressive was like more pseudo intellectualism than actual progressivism.
A Bit Fruity with Matt Bernstein
The Complex Tragedy of Grimes
But for a while, it felt like she was a part of the like more leftist, liberal side of the internet and famously like jumping ahead a little bit. But famously, her bio when she first started dating Elon was initially like pro communism.
A Bit Fruity with Matt Bernstein
The Complex Tragedy of Grimes
oh it was yes it was anti-imperialist which yeah we are we are jumping ahead a little bit but after their relationship progressed she took anti-imperialist out of her bio which like i don't know at least she was self-aware enough to do that i feel like throughout her whole career and especially in retrospect you can see how she took big words and just like used them and didn't really understand what they meant but liked the aesthetic of like using these like big words and like
A Bit Fruity with Matt Bernstein
The Complex Tragedy of Grimes
I've heard people talk about it, but I could not like explain it to you.
A Bit Fruity with Matt Bernstein
The Complex Tragedy of Grimes
When you look at Grimes' music, it intensified around when she started dating Elon. But she's been talking about how amazing it would be for AI to take over the world for a long time.
A Bit Fruity with Matt Bernstein
The Complex Tragedy of Grimes
Yes. And like, I totally agree with everything you said, Taylor. And I think it's such good context. And I feel like the way that Grimes makes music is wrapped up in like techno optimism because she talks about how like she didn't have any actual skill at music. She created all of her songs through like
A Bit Fruity with Matt Bernstein
The Complex Tragedy of Grimes
garage band and like technology of the time it was very like I'm gonna make a movie on my iPhone like style like making music and in her lyricism and in like her personal brand she'll say things like I'm getting experimental surgery on my eyes like she'll make things up and she'll troll and
A Bit Fruity with Matt Bernstein
The Complex Tragedy of Grimes
And I think that she purposefully does this because it's convenient for her if she says something that isn't actually smart. She just creates this aura of like, you'll never know. Am I trolling or am I serious? Or do I really understand these things? Or is it all part of the bit? And I think that kind of helps her.
A Bit Fruity with Matt Bernstein
The Complex Tragedy of Grimes
construct a like reasonable doubt around whether she's truly a pseudo intellectual or not because sometimes she'll do really blatant trolling where she's like i'm putting ai in my brain today like i'm going under the knife and then other times she'll say things where she's like acting as if she's serious but there's no real substance to what she's saying i would like to take a quick break from the show to shout out factor for making this episode possible
A Bit Fruity with Matt Bernstein
The Complex Tragedy of Grimes
I think it's really funny. Like you can see already the seeds that are being planted for what she's going to name her future children. It reminds me, it's just so firmly rooted in Tumblr culture to me because it's like, there is like a little bit of a pseudo intellectualism to it, but it's really just like kind of like goofy and silly.
A Bit Fruity with Matt Bernstein
The Complex Tragedy of Grimes
And I think the fact that she would go on to name her kids like such like outrageous names shows sort of the transition from like a more playful, immature, all in good fun kind of use of this naming style to like, all of a sudden it went zero to 100. Like, oh no, this is like the air of the fake US president.
A Bit Fruity with Matt Bernstein
The Complex Tragedy of Grimes
I remember because I was at a particular high point of listening to Grimes all the time, re-listening to like the classics from the earlier era and also listening to some of her newer stuff when she popped out at the Met Gala with Elon Musk. And I remember that moment like so vividly and just being like, this isn't good.
A Bit Fruity with Matt Bernstein
The Complex Tragedy of Grimes
Like I, even though Elon Musk, and I think people forget that at the point when he and Grimes popped out together, he was, it was like, people were like power couple. Like, People loved him. They loved him. And I think I was even at the time as a Grimes fan kind of like, I don't know about this.
A Bit Fruity with Matt Bernstein
The Complex Tragedy of Grimes
But it was really interesting to me the way that they allegedly like met is that Grimes had made a pun involving like Rococo's basilisk.
A Bit Fruity with Matt Bernstein
The Complex Tragedy of Grimes
and then the art style or roco's basilisk or something basilisk and then the art style rococo so she made like a pun rococo's basilisk and used it in a music video which is very like I think it lends itself to what we've been talking about in terms of like there's something there that's like interesting and creative and I think if it was disconnected from Elon Musk I'd be like how interesting what a night what a nice young lady but instead
A Bit Fruity with Matt Bernstein
The Complex Tragedy of Grimes
but instead elon musk like also thought of this separately supposedly and googled it to see if anyone else had come up with this pun and when he saw that grimes had he like dm'd her on twitter and at the time it was like meet cute like the rest is history and unfortunately the rest is literally history as are our rights exactly oh that's dark
A Bit Fruity with Matt Bernstein
The Complex Tragedy of Grimes
Imagine what he would act like if he was just at like a bar. He would be so awkward.
A Bit Fruity with Matt Bernstein
The Complex Tragedy of Grimes
And I think he I think he saw Grimes and spotted her and kind of immediately picked up on like ways he could maybe manipulate her by feeding into like the weirdness and being really congratulatory of it. Even if it was like he did not ultimately respect her.
A Bit Fruity with Matt Bernstein
The Complex Tragedy of Grimes
I think in the beginning of their relationship, undoubtedly, she did not think of him as, like, this bigoted, fascist individual.
A Bit Fruity with Matt Bernstein
The Complex Tragedy of Grimes
And we know this because, like, early on in their relationship, as he was very publicly radicalized, whether or not that's what he always believed, she seemed to think that that was not who he really was because of the famous, like, hate is not in your heart, pick up the phone and give me a doll.
A Bit Fruity with Matt Bernstein
The Complex Tragedy of Grimes
And I do, I think we kind of just said this, but I just am like, there's this perception that Grimes got with Elon Musk because he's the horrible person he very publicly is today. And there's also a perception that she knew exactly what she was getting into and she wanted a relationship with this man.
A Bit Fruity with Matt Bernstein
The Complex Tragedy of Grimes
And I think that that is always bad rhetoric with abuse victims because it's like, at the end of the day, even if someone made really bad choices in terms of pursuing a relationship, I just think it's like bad to say that someone wanted like an abusive relationship.
A Bit Fruity with Matt Bernstein
The Complex Tragedy of Grimes
And I also think that like in the case of Grimes going back to 2018, I definitely don't think that she had any idea of what was going to happen because I don't think most people did.
A Bit Fruity with Matt Bernstein
The Complex Tragedy of Grimes
I think it's a hallmark of abusers to showcase very intentionally show one side of yourself at the beginning of a relationship. This is something that almost every abuser does because most abusers are very cognizant of what they are doing. And by the time Elon had met Grimes, he had already been with other women.
A Bit Fruity with Matt Bernstein
The Complex Tragedy of Grimes
And we have heard about various abusive dynamics within those relationships, including his first wife, Justine. She wrote about this. I think for Marie Claire in like 2013 or like 2014.
A Bit Fruity with Matt Bernstein
The Complex Tragedy of Grimes
And so we know that Elon had this pattern that from what other women have described as kind of like love bombing, where at the beginning of the relationship, he is really doting, presents himself as like, I'm going to save you. Like I have so many resources. I have so much money and I care so much about you. Like I'm going to be the best thing that's ever happened to you.
A Bit Fruity with Matt Bernstein
The Complex Tragedy of Grimes
And we know he did this to Amber Heard. Coming in and being like, I'm going to save you from your abusive relationship with Johnny Depp. We know he did this to Justine where it was like she wasn't that interested in him in college, but he like persistently was like, I'm going to really make something out of my life and I want you to be with me.
A Bit Fruity with Matt Bernstein
The Complex Tragedy of Grimes
There seemed to be parts of this in his relationship with Tallulah Riley because it happened super quickly after he left Justine. And so I think that most likely, based on Elon's patterns with all of these women, I think he probably presented a very different side of himself to Grimes.
A Bit Fruity with Matt Bernstein
The Complex Tragedy of Grimes
And then not too long after their relationship, you know, took on a definition that she would never be able to fully escape from, which is that she had children with him. Once you have children with someone, you're kind of stuck with them as long as they're alive.
A Bit Fruity with Matt Bernstein
The Complex Tragedy of Grimes
And as soon as he kind of had her like in this position of being stuck with him, that's when you really publicly see the unraveling of Grimes publicly being like, I don't recognize this person. This is not who I got together with. I don't believe this is who you are. And that is so sad to me because it is just such a common and in fact, the most common trajectory of an abusive relationship.
A Bit Fruity with Matt Bernstein
The Complex Tragedy of Grimes
It's also like there are two contradictory societal narratives at once, which is that as a woman in particular in a heterosexual relationship, you are encouraged to try to fix relationships, especially if you have children with a man in a relationship. If you're a woman, you are actually by the court ordered to try to repair that relationship versus cut that person off.
A Bit Fruity with Matt Bernstein
The Complex Tragedy of Grimes
And so through the court system, abusive relationships that involve children are essentially mandated. We mandate that victims remain in close proximity with their abuser. We mandate that they share child care responsibilities with them. And oftentimes, we mandate through our legal system that they spend extended periods of time immersed in their abuser's life, in their homes, in their ideologies.
A Bit Fruity with Matt Bernstein
The Complex Tragedy of Grimes
And so I think that like once Grimes passed that point, she was kind of trapped. And that's not even like taking into account the fact that contrary to popular belief, Grimes and Elon were never married. He doesn't owe her anything. First time she was pregnant with X, that was a really big deal. Like as a fan still at the time who was like, I hate this relationship. I want them to break up.
A Bit Fruity with Matt Bernstein
The Complex Tragedy of Grimes
When she announced she was pregnant with his baby, I was like, fuck.
A Bit Fruity with Matt Bernstein
The Complex Tragedy of Grimes
I was just like, I remember kind of watching helplessly from the sidelines because I was like, you know, at the time when Grimes and Elon's relationship was starting to develop. There was also simultaneously like the emergence of Elon Musk's radicalization in the public eye. I was like, this is so bad. Like she needs to break up with this horrible man. And instead they had a kid together.
A Bit Fruity with Matt Bernstein
The Complex Tragedy of Grimes
That was a whole public ordeal, particularly around like they give the child this keyboard smash name.
A Bit Fruity with Matt Bernstein
The Complex Tragedy of Grimes
then for the second and the third child for whatever reason and this is like a big red flag they tried to hide them they tried to like hide those pregnancies from the public a reporter discovered that they had had either the second or third child they did an interview at grimes's house and they heard the baby crying and they're like did you and elon have another baby
A Bit Fruity with Matt Bernstein
The Complex Tragedy of Grimes
And we now know that Elon does this with different women. He like, he like encourages them as the relationship is clearly not equitable, as there are clearly signs of like abuse or coercion or whatever in the relationship. He's also like, let's have another baby. So he's done that to multiple women now. And he definitely did that to Grimes.
A Bit Fruity with Matt Bernstein
The Complex Tragedy of Grimes
Yes. So around this time after Grimes had had X, which is nothing to say of his full name, after Grimes had that kid, people in her fandom in particular were starting to get really worried because this is around the time that you started to see tweets and stuff that suggested bad things were happening behind the scenes with Elon and Grimes. And the custody battle was
A Bit Fruity with Matt Bernstein
The Complex Tragedy of Grimes
like kicked into effect because Grimes was trying to get a legal sort of parental arrangement, like acknowledging that Elon is the father of these three children so that she can have legal rights to them. And what we know from like the court documents themselves and like the official narrative is supplemented by the fact that Grimes will often tweet and often she'll delete them.
A Bit Fruity with Matt Bernstein
The Complex Tragedy of Grimes
But like Grimes frequently tweets and gives these little like bits and pieces of insight into what her portrayal of these events are. But after she starts trying to go through the courts to establish parenthood, then they start disputing over whether the children live in California or Texas. And the custody battle is in Texas. So Grimes wanted to move it to California.
A Bit Fruity with Matt Bernstein
The Complex Tragedy of Grimes
and said that the youngest two children were with her full time in California and that the only child who was in Texas was X. And X is the one who Elon constantly is parading around in public, has him on his shoulders, has him in the White House. From the time that he was a little boy, X has been the very public child who Elon takes around with him. And it is super bizarre.
A Bit Fruity with Matt Bernstein
The Complex Tragedy of Grimes
And like Grimes has hinged kind of her argument around this, that it is like not what she wants as his mother. And it is like not consistent with the other children, the way that he parades X around specifically. And it's like, he has children who are X's age with other women who he's not doing this with.
A Bit Fruity with Matt Bernstein
The Complex Tragedy of Grimes
It's like he picked this one kid and in the custody battle, Grimes is like, I haven't seen X for five months. I can't see my son. I don't want him to have this level of public visibility, but Elon won't comply with my wishes. And the custody battle is really, really ugly. A lot of it is sealed from public view. Most of it is, but she reveals on Twitter that,
A Bit Fruity with Matt Bernstein
The Complex Tragedy of Grimes
She says that like her modeling photos were used against her in the courtroom. Like she basically said that Elon used like probably tried to portray her as like sexually promiscuous, which is just like so gross, but such a common thing used against mothers in custody battles. What she like described happening is so consistent with what women from all backgrounds and like all backgrounds
A Bit Fruity with Matt Bernstein
The Complex Tragedy of Grimes
histories and experiences go through in custody battles. She said she was going bankrupt because of these custody battles. She said that Elon obviously has the most resources out of everyone in the world. He is the richest person on the planet. And she was like, I have such a difficult time
A Bit Fruity with Matt Bernstein
The Complex Tragedy of Grimes
fighting this against him and she also said at that point that it was like someone who she no longer recognized as compared to the man who she had met um and she basically said that like she was fighting to stop her kids from getting taken away from her another really interesting thing during sort of this whole custody battle era which did wrap up finally with some sort of settlement but as this was all going on Grimes's mother actually tweeted at Elon and was like
A Bit Fruity with Matt Bernstein
The Complex Tragedy of Grimes
Grimes is trying to take the kids to see her dying grandmother and you will not like relinquish them to her or give her their like passport documentation so that they can do this. Like, please don't do something. This is breaking my daughter's heart and my mother's heart.
A Bit Fruity with Matt Bernstein
The Complex Tragedy of Grimes
And with all of this stuff being so publicly out there, I just have always found it so like surreal and ultimately unsurprising, but very disappointing that people don't like talk about how blatant this
A Bit Fruity with Matt Bernstein
The Complex Tragedy of Grimes
all of this mistreatment of his kids and Grimes and her family is and how egregious it is that she has so little resources compared to him and that he's putting her and the children through all of this.
A Bit Fruity with Matt Bernstein
The Complex Tragedy of Grimes
I am extremely excited to be talking about Grimes. I'm always ready to talk about her.
A Bit Fruity with Matt Bernstein
The Complex Tragedy of Grimes
I think that throughout Grimes' career and what we've talked about, you see the perfect conditions for radicalization form. Because like we talked about at the very beginning, when Grimes emerged as a musician, I think she was undeniably extremely talented, but was often sort of not given her due and had kind of this...
A Bit Fruity with Matt Bernstein
The Complex Tragedy of Grimes
tense back and forth with the media, like broadly speaking, because I think she also dealt with a lot of misogyny and sexism from the media and from parts of the media that are not like the same parts of the media that are calling her out now.
A Bit Fruity with Matt Bernstein
The Complex Tragedy of Grimes
But I think a lot of people in that position just sort of naturally start to associate anything that falls under the umbrella of the media with like negative bad treatment they've gotten.
A Bit Fruity with Matt Bernstein
The Complex Tragedy of Grimes
And to some degree, like you said, Taylor, I think that for a lot of women in the public eye, that is fair because a lot of times as a woman in the public eye, even the best media outlets still treat you through a misogynistic lens. So I think coming into her relationship with Elon was,
A Bit Fruity with Matt Bernstein
The Complex Tragedy of Grimes
grimes was already sort of in this like standoff with the media the way her relationship gets covered i think really like upset her and then as the relationship in her personal life starts to really visibly become abusive I think like you see a lot of effects and consequences of that that only further open her up to radicalization.
A Bit Fruity with Matt Bernstein
The Complex Tragedy of Grimes
For example, during the custody battle, she tweeted that her daily schedule would be like sleeping, eating, crying and going to court. And I just think that someone who is in that kind of survival mode where it feels like the world is against you. And in the case of fighting the richest man on the planet for your children, the world kind of is against.
A Bit Fruity with Matt Bernstein
The Complex Tragedy of Grimes
stacked against you like i can see why she became so vulnerable that like it was just perfect breeding ground for radicalization and i'll also say that like that's not an excuse because a lot of people who are in really heinous horrible situations do not become radicalized right
A Bit Fruity with Matt Bernstein
The Complex Tragedy of Grimes
I think this more has to do with like the path she went down and the path Elon went down are both because of like who they are. And she's not like a violent, abusive individual in the same way that he is. But she like has co-signed on this rhetoric. And some of the really bad stuff that she's done over the years has included like following white supremacist neo-Nazis on Twitter.
A Bit Fruity with Matt Bernstein
The Complex Tragedy of Grimes
I just saw Trisha Paytas and my jaw was like.
A Bit Fruity with Matt Bernstein
The Complex Tragedy of Grimes
It reminds me really significantly, like over the past few years, like since 2018, since like the height of the Me Too movement, I have noticed multiple women who were like high profile accusers in the Me Too movement who have been radicalized and radicalized hard. Tara Reid is like a really good example because she is like literally like in Russia and
A Bit Fruity with Matt Bernstein
The Complex Tragedy of Grimes
And I think Rose McGowan also has like said some pretty concerning stuff. At first, when I saw these women getting radicalized, it confused me because I was like, how could you be drawn to such a like toxic and like patriarchal demographic?
A Bit Fruity with Matt Bernstein
The Complex Tragedy of Grimes
But I think what I eventually realized is that like what these women experienced when they came forward is they saw that they said they saw that same patriarchal misogyny from the left and And that is why they got pushed to the right. Because unfortunately the reality is there is like no justice in any sense for women who go through these types of situations.
A Bit Fruity with Matt Bernstein
The Complex Tragedy of Grimes
Like a lot of victims understand that it is not like a left or right thing. It's like, just because the left mistreats you doesn't mean the right's going to treat you any better. But a lot of victims do fall prey to this. Like they are sort of vulnerable to this radicalization. And I've seen examples of this where it's like, I'm like, well, this guy who you now love is a victim blamer.
A Bit Fruity with Matt Bernstein
The Complex Tragedy of Grimes
And they're like, but not to me. Like they're like, but this person showed me kindness and no one is showing me any kindness. And it's like, it's really sad to like see this happen. And I hate it, but it's like, it all comes back to the fact that I think bottom line, like these men, Elon Musk and like his cronies are manipulators, right? They're manipulators.
A Bit Fruity with Matt Bernstein
The Complex Tragedy of Grimes
And it's like, that's the like most important takeaway from this is that he's now done this to so many women, Grimes and others, that it ceases to be about who these women are as individuals. And it's more so about just like, oh, it's the same pattern of abuse. And Elon Musk is abusing all of us now in his position.
A Bit Fruity with Matt Bernstein
The Complex Tragedy of Grimes
I'm like, what is Trisha going to do on stage?
A Bit Fruity with Matt Bernstein
The Complex Tragedy of Grimes
So it's like, it just is who he is to his core and he'll do it to any woman he can, right?
A Bit Fruity with Matt Bernstein
The Complex Tragedy of Grimes
I would not ask anyone to feel sympathetic for Grimes because there are a number of reasons why you may not want to be sympathetic toward her.
A Bit Fruity with Matt Bernstein
The Complex Tragedy of Grimes
But I do think that in noting that, we can also recognize that victims don't have to be sympathetic and that the way that Elon Musk is victimizing these women, Grimes included, is also reflective of the way that he is victimizing the country at large through all the other actions that he takes in his personal and his professional life.
A Bit Fruity with Matt Bernstein
The Complex Tragedy of Grimes
And I think with Grimes and defending Elon specifically, it's like, we can look at this behavior sort of objectively for what it is. And it's like, this is a man who has only ever like persistently hurt Grimes. And so for her to come out and defend him after all of that is not a rational position for her to take. It's coming from an irrational place.
A Bit Fruity with Matt Bernstein
The Complex Tragedy of Grimes
And so just because victims act, you know, in some situations irrationally or in a way that is like consequential to others, you know, we we don't have to separate those things out from each other. They can exist at the same time. She can be coming from a place where she's reacting to an abusive relationship and her statement on its own can have negative and harmful consequences.
A Bit Fruity with Matt Bernstein
The Complex Tragedy of Grimes
This is actually like a very frequent facet of like domestic violence cases is that there are cascading consequences that affect everybody around the relationship. And so I think that that, that is true of Grimes. And I also think that like, if we just end the conversation at,
A Bit Fruity with Matt Bernstein
The Complex Tragedy of Grimes
she's an irredeemable person and we don't feel bad for her, then we're not doing anything to challenge like the rhetoric that underlines Elon's ability to abuse all of these different women. I also think it's important to point out because I refer to the behavior as like rational versus irrational.
A Bit Fruity with Matt Bernstein
The Complex Tragedy of Grimes
Some things appear irrational to us because we are not privy to what is going on in that relationship. So, for example, this is just a hypothetical. Like sometimes within abusive relationships behind closed doors, the way that abusers treat their victims is irrational.
A Bit Fruity with Matt Bernstein
The Complex Tragedy of Grimes
they see how far they can push them and things that they can get them to say and do sometimes publicly to sort of like, it's part of the process of coercive control.
A Bit Fruity with Matt Bernstein
The Complex Tragedy of Grimes
Victims will oftentimes like privately and publicly respond with like the fawn response, which is to like tell the abuser that they're a good person, tell them that like they're not being abused, like deny that the abuse is happening because it's a way of like maybe making sure that the abuser is stays calm and doesn't become angry and doesn't flip out on you.
A Bit Fruity with Matt Bernstein
The Complex Tragedy of Grimes
Or maybe it's a way of like bargaining to try to get things like being able to see your children, for example, or getting your abuser to respond to you if like your child is having a medical emergency. With like the tweeting at Elon, we don't really know what's going on in that relationship because the parties who have knowledge of it haven't told us. All we can really do as bystanders is guess.
A Bit Fruity with Matt Bernstein
The Complex Tragedy of Grimes
And that is a really imperfect way of handling this situation. But I think that because it's the one we're all in together, you see how people just repeatedly do not give victims the benefit of the doubt. They actually tend to villainize victims and cast the worst possible guess of what is going on in that situation. and project that onto the victim.
A Bit Fruity with Matt Bernstein
The Complex Tragedy of Grimes
So I think like knowing what we know, it's fair to say that there are probably elements to Grimes' behavior that involve factors we are not privy to and may make her look more sympathetic or may at least provide like context that we don't have.
A Bit Fruity with Matt Bernstein
The Complex Tragedy of Grimes
I do think we can be like, oh, this woman is problematic and also be like, oh, it's like so objectively horrifying that people online, everyone kind of agrees that Elon is carrying X around as like a human shield. Imagine if that is your child.
A Bit Fruity with Matt Bernstein
The Complex Tragedy of Grimes
And not only do you have to see everyone basically say that like your kid is going to get assassinated, which is not an impossible thing to happen, but also like his father is not letting you even see him. Like it is so dystopian and horrifying. What Grimes is living through is a straight up horror movie.
A Bit Fruity with Matt Bernstein
The Complex Tragedy of Grimes
Yes. So as a disclaimer, we don't care if you don't like vocal fry.
A Bit Fruity with Matt Bernstein
The Complex Tragedy of Grimes
And what all of like Elon's baby, the women who have his children, what they're all living through is like a horror movie. And they don't all have to be like good people for that to be the case. The whole thing is wild. It's like, it feels very like palace intrigue-y. Like you're getting this window into the lives of these people. And I don't know what happens.
A Bit Fruity with Matt Bernstein
The Complex Tragedy of Grimes
how reflective that is of what's really going on inside. But it does remind me also the last thing I wanted to say, which is, I don't know if you guys have seen that thread. And it's like someone on Twitter was creating like a version of Elon and all the women who are mothers of his children and comparing them to like a royal dynasty, like tropes.
A Bit Fruity with Matt Bernstein
The Complex Tragedy of Grimes
And they were like Grimes is like his ultimate love, but she faces the worst punishment because she refuses to conform. Siobhan is like the one who plays the game the best. And she like her son ultimately gets picked to be like the next person in line. And like they're doing all the different women who Elon has been with. And Grimes responded to this and was like, LOL.
A Bit Fruity with Matt Bernstein
The Complex Tragedy of Grimes
And I was just like, this is so sad. This is dystopian. It's like so reminiscent of historical fiction and how like kings have wives and concubines and all of this historical stuff. And I'm like, this isn't okay that this is happening. And we shouldn't be like glorifying it or like treating it as it's just like palace intrigue about rich, weird people. Like it's kind of like a,
A Bit Fruity with Matt Bernstein
The Complex Tragedy of Grimes
We get these comments every time we do an episode together, which are people will say like, wish I could listen to this, but this vocal fry is unlistable.
A Bit Fruity with Matt Bernstein
The Complex Tragedy of Grimes
it's like an act of gender violence that's happening in front of us involving the richest and most influential people in the world. I think that ultimately the biggest story here is not really whether or not Grimes is a person who is redeemable, but rather that Elon Musk is a person who is currently unaccountable. And I think that what is so often lost is
A Bit Fruity with Matt Bernstein
The Complex Tragedy of Grimes
is that to consistently oppose abusers and to consistently support victims, that involves cases that are morally gray. And I think that like, it actually more frequently comes off morally gray than it comes off nice and easy because the victim is like so great and easy to support and the abuser is so easy to hold accountable. Like,
A Bit Fruity with Matt Bernstein
The Complex Tragedy of Grimes
I think with these cases, they're so frequently framed as like the outliers because of how rich and famous and celebrity the people involved are. And while I don't want to discount the role that like privilege and other like all these different forms of privilege carry in this situation, one consistent theme throughout this episode has been like what Grimes is experiencing. It's the same playbook.
A Bit Fruity with Matt Bernstein
The Complex Tragedy of Grimes
It's the same pattern. as any abusive relationship, love bombing, like hiding who you really are, turning into a different person, the way that the courts and custody system have been weaponized against her. These are things that every victim faces.
A Bit Fruity with Matt Bernstein
The Complex Tragedy of Grimes
we we've talked about it multiple times now and we always usually get really helpful comments like there was one on a former video where someone basically pointed out that like like famous men will have vocal fry and no one will care but if like women or like femme coded people have vocal fry then all of a sudden everyone's like i just can't listen to this so yeah we don't care We don't care.
A Bit Fruity with Matt Bernstein
The Complex Tragedy of Grimes
And so it's never about like the individual victim and their strengths and weaknesses, but rather it's about what abuse is and what we can do about it. And what we can do about it is we can like acknowledge it because it's you can walk away and be like, I still hate her. I hate everything about her. She's the worst person in the world. As long as you are still like, but he is abusing her.
A Bit Fruity with Matt Bernstein
The Complex Tragedy of Grimes
That's like, that's a still positive step in the right direction because we can't do anything about like victimhood and abuse. If we can't even agree on a common definition of what victimhood and abuse are.
A Bit Fruity with Matt Bernstein
The Complex Tragedy of Grimes
Thank you for having us. I'm so glad we got to talk about this.
A Bit Fruity with Matt Bernstein
The Complex Tragedy of Grimes
I feel like I think about Grimes a lot and it's very surreal to me because I listened to her music a lot even before she was with Elon. And so as the relationship has progressed, it's just gotten more and more dystopian. And she's talked about more now than she ever has been in the past and in like such a reasonably but overwhelmingly negative way.
A Bit Fruity with Matt Bernstein
The Complex Tragedy of Grimes
There's so much posted and said about Grimes, but a lot of it does not really get to the heart of what I think is the most important part. about this case and this relationship. And so I'm excited to talk about it because I mean, I just I find her fascinating and so emblematic of this bizarre pop culture political era that we are in right now.
A Bit Fruity with Matt Bernstein
The Complex Tragedy of Grimes
And I feel like this is very much so her brand. She looks like a creature who lives in the woods.
A Bit Fruity with Matt Bernstein
The Complex Tragedy of Grimes
I think so. I think she's always been a troll. And I think she's always enjoyed the idea of, like, telling people things that aren't true about herself to, like, hide who she really is. And I feel like even back in the early days, you can see kind of some of the things that would have made her a good fit for someone like Elon. Yeah.
A Bit Fruity with Matt Bernstein
The Complex Tragedy of Grimes
Because I think he too enjoys like making things up and being like, I don't sleep at all. Like I just work for days straight. And it's like with Grimes, I will say, I think she's more talented. Like Elon Musk could not make visions. Grimes could pretend to run Tesla, but Elon Musk could not make visions.
A Bit Fruity with Matt Bernstein
The Complex Tragedy of Grimes
so I do think that like she has produced more artistic work than he ever will or would ever be capable of and I actually think that Grimes is like quite talented a lot of times people just paint her with like a brush of like she's always been like this kind of loser figure but I do think that back in this era like she was making really good and interesting music and I think that like you saw hints of what would later become who she who she became
A Bit Fruity with Matt Bernstein
The Complex Tragedy of Grimes
But at this point, I think she was, like, had a very promising career in front of her.