Karen Doherty

Yeah, I think that shame is very live and very real. And working with a couple, you try and create a compassionate and empathic space for that not to be quite so real. It's not your fault. It's nobody's fault.

Yeah, I think that shame is very live and very real. And working with a couple, you try and create a compassionate and empathic space for that not to be quite so real. It's not your fault. It's nobody's fault.

And especially when there is real efforts made to manage these conditions. Everybody has a temper. Everybody has to manage themselves. It's not just an ND domain. But that shame, you have to work with the couple. The couple need to be able to sort of not let the partner disintegrate into a shameful position because it's unfair. And it's not soothing. It's not soothing.

And especially when there is real efforts made to manage these conditions. Everybody has a temper. Everybody has to manage themselves. It's not just an ND domain. But that shame, you have to work with the couple. The couple need to be able to sort of not let the partner disintegrate into a shameful position because it's unfair. And it's not soothing. It's not soothing.

But it depends on the level of communication.

But it depends on the level of communication.

People have all sorts of techniques and strategies. I quite like it. I just like a couple to develop their own secret language around it, and I will help every couple do that. You know, come on, what's the language we're using? What are we doing? Are we using code words? Are you using signals? What are you doing? Are you using... What are you doing?

People have all sorts of techniques and strategies. I quite like it. I just like a couple to develop their own secret language around it, and I will help every couple do that. You know, come on, what's the language we're using? What are we doing? Are we using code words? Are you using signals? What are you doing? Are you using... What are you doing?

How are you going to develop this intimate language that you two can converse in, even in public... that just allows you both to know either when somebody is not feeling great or when somebody is just a little bit edgy because maybe that was a bit inappropriate. So how are you going to develop this couple language?

How are you going to develop this intimate language that you two can converse in, even in public... that just allows you both to know either when somebody is not feeling great or when somebody is just a little bit edgy because maybe that was a bit inappropriate. So how are you going to develop this couple language?

Yeah.

Yeah.

ND, just ND, both sides. Both sides, that boom or bust is very pertinent. And I think we talked about this in the last chat, didn't we, about that incredibly passionate, overwhelming need to merge at the beginning of these relationships and the sort of indiscriminate merging because it's just, oh, I've met my soulmate, this is it, we are, this is it, we are going to be together.

ND, just ND, both sides. Both sides, that boom or bust is very pertinent. And I think we talked about this in the last chat, didn't we, about that incredibly passionate, overwhelming need to merge at the beginning of these relationships and the sort of indiscriminate merging because it's just, oh, I've met my soulmate, this is it, we are, this is it, we are going to be together.

And that very, very... interesting mix of chemicals endorphins everything that goes off and we know nd is particularly sensitive to all of those changes all of those hormonal changes chemical changes so it's even more intense for the nd but i think i argued i think i argued as well the last time i was here that it's equally as intense for the partner

And that very, very... interesting mix of chemicals endorphins everything that goes off and we know nd is particularly sensitive to all of those changes all of those hormonal changes chemical changes so it's even more intense for the nd but i think i argued i think i argued as well the last time i was here that it's equally as intense for the partner

So that's my mission, actually, is to help. That sounds like I'm out there too altruistically. It's to help people see what they're in, understand their dynamics, actually grow together, learn together, use each other and harness each other's talents. And it's a fantastic work. It's brilliant because you can see people really growing, enjoying, changing.

So that's my mission, actually, is to help. That sounds like I'm out there too altruistically. It's to help people see what they're in, understand their dynamics, actually grow together, learn together, use each other and harness each other's talents. And it's a fantastic work. It's brilliant because you can see people really growing, enjoying, changing.

The partner gets into that for their own reasons. There's a couple fit that goes with that. Um, and how do you know whether any relationship, how do you know whether it's going to last or not? How would you know? You don't. You don't, you know, it's very hit and miss, isn't it? Three months, four months. Okay. That might be. Yeah. All right. So we'll carry on. Um,

The partner gets into that for their own reasons. There's a couple fit that goes with that. Um, and how do you know whether any relationship, how do you know whether it's going to last or not? How would you know? You don't. You don't, you know, it's very hit and miss, isn't it? Three months, four months. Okay. That might be. Yeah. All right. So we'll carry on. Um,

Generally speaking, generally speaking, if it's the right thing, people don't bust. They don't if it's the right thing. I think you might be also talking about something later on where the relationship starts to be taken for granted and it's a bit more obvious from the ND's point of view in that they can often become hyperfixated on other things and forget the couple.

Generally speaking, generally speaking, if it's the right thing, people don't bust. They don't if it's the right thing. I think you might be also talking about something later on where the relationship starts to be taken for granted and it's a bit more obvious from the ND's point of view in that they can often become hyperfixated on other things and forget the couple.

Yes.

Yes.

almost essential for that adhd person to to a be aware oh definitely of this boom and bust cycle and to be somehow put something in place to sort of ration their interest and actions that's never going to happen and you can't you can't ration that for that that first bloom you can't ration that i think i think awareness i think actually knowing that this might be a pattern in your life that you do get a little bit over over over involved it's very interesting that you bring this subject up because

almost essential for that adhd person to to a be aware oh definitely of this boom and bust cycle and to be somehow put something in place to sort of ration their interest and actions that's never going to happen and you can't you can't ration that for that that first bloom you can't ration that i think i think awareness i think actually knowing that this might be a pattern in your life that you do get a little bit over over over involved it's very interesting that you bring this subject up because

So many clients have got together really quickly. Now, they haven't all bust, obviously, but so many clients actually did get together and were living together within the first six months or they'd had children within the first two years. They've got together very quickly. It is a feature of these relationships.

So many clients have got together really quickly. Now, they haven't all bust, obviously, but so many clients actually did get together and were living together within the first six months or they'd had children within the first two years. They've got together very quickly. It is a feature of these relationships.

It's hugely confusing for a more NT, a more NT partner, hugely confusing. And I think it's very well documented this, that sometimes after the marriage, the interest goes. You know, they are the focus of their partner's

It's hugely confusing for a more NT, a more NT partner, hugely confusing. And I think it's very well documented this, that sometimes after the marriage, the interest goes. You know, they are the focus of their partner's

all for so long then they've got married and actually it's all it's all changed it's all different it's it's sort of established now so there doesn't need to be all that interest and it's lost its it's lost its uh interest as that bright new shiny thing so yeah it can be very it can be very uh difficult for the partner on the receiving end of that sort of pulling back withdrawing

all for so long then they've got married and actually it's all it's all changed it's all different it's it's sort of established now so there doesn't need to be all that interest and it's lost its it's lost its uh interest as that bright new shiny thing so yeah it can be very it can be very uh difficult for the partner on the receiving end of that sort of pulling back withdrawing

of that gaze if you like that wonderful gaze but couples do make it couples do make it so it doesn't always happen um it and it doesn't always happen to huge degrees i think the way that you're talking to me about that it is when actually there's been a mistake made so that's that can be

of that gaze if you like that wonderful gaze but couples do make it couples do make it so it doesn't always happen um it and it doesn't always happen to huge degrees i think the way that you're talking to me about that it is when actually there's been a mistake made so that's that can be

really terrifying for the partner if they've got as far down the road as actually thinking that they're going to commit in and then the ND person pulls away. That can be really terrifying. But managing it and transitioning it from those early days into something more permanent, that's the couple together have to do that. And it has to be recognized as just that.

really terrifying for the partner if they've got as far down the road as actually thinking that they're going to commit in and then the ND person pulls away. That can be really terrifying. But managing it and transitioning it from those early days into something more permanent, that's the couple together have to do that. And it has to be recognized as just that.

And it's going to be more intense if you're involved with a neurodiverse person. It's going to be more intense. Okay, how do you manage that? What do we do about it? Ration yourself. Don't love bomb me. You can't not do that. No, what you've got to do is remember that you've got to keep love bombing me. Not ration it. You've got to keep it. You've got to somehow hold on to it. So difficult.

And it's going to be more intense if you're involved with a neurodiverse person. It's going to be more intense. Okay, how do you manage that? What do we do about it? Ration yourself. Don't love bomb me. You can't not do that. No, what you've got to do is remember that you've got to keep love bombing me. Not ration it. You've got to keep it. You've got to somehow hold on to it. So difficult.

Amazing, amazing.

Amazing, amazing.

Absolutely not. When did a child ever, ever solve a relational problem? It didn't. It really didn't. It can provide, and I think this is where the solution focus thinking comes in. It can provide a mutual focus. It can provide a solution in the short term. But the long term, we all know that doesn't work because actually child rearing is a relentless process.

Absolutely not. When did a child ever, ever solve a relational problem? It didn't. It really didn't. It can provide, and I think this is where the solution focus thinking comes in. It can provide a mutual focus. It can provide a solution in the short term. But the long term, we all know that doesn't work because actually child rearing is a relentless process.

Yes, been doing that for a long time now.

Yes, been doing that for a long time now.

And it's disturbing to the couple dynamic. It's hard work. It's distracting. And it takes away often the attention from the couple and each other. And that is where it really gets difficult for NDs. NDs can sometimes be a bit more pragmatic about it. Well, we've got kids. We don't have sex. We don't do this. We don't do that. The ND is feeling rejected.

And it's disturbing to the couple dynamic. It's hard work. It's distracting. And it takes away often the attention from the couple and each other. And that is where it really gets difficult for NDs. NDs can sometimes be a bit more pragmatic about it. Well, we've got kids. We don't have sex. We don't do this. We don't do that. The ND is feeling rejected.

is feeling left out, is feeling, oh, my God, what's happened? This is not for me, and feeling absolutely isolated and lonely. That's not to say, actually, that the NT doesn't end up feeling like that as well, if this is NT. It can actually work like that because as the ND withdraws because there's not the attention, love, gaze that they need,

is feeling left out, is feeling, oh, my God, what's happened? This is not for me, and feeling absolutely isolated and lonely. That's not to say, actually, that the NT doesn't end up feeling like that as well, if this is NT. It can actually work like that because as the ND withdraws because there's not the attention, love, gaze that they need,

The NT who's sort of caught up with the more pragmatic running of the life perhaps and can sort of can tolerate that a little bit more does actually feel start to become exactly the same, feel exactly the same things as the ND.

The NT who's sort of caught up with the more pragmatic running of the life perhaps and can sort of can tolerate that a little bit more does actually feel start to become exactly the same, feel exactly the same things as the ND.

I started this in, I have always unconsciously worked with neurodivergence and always found it quite fascinating, going back to my Canary Wharf days. That practice, you can recognize, I could recognize the presentations. They were coming in and there were similarities. So I got interested there. And I think I did my first talk in about 2016.

I started this in, I have always unconsciously worked with neurodivergence and always found it quite fascinating, going back to my Canary Wharf days. That practice, you can recognize, I could recognize the presentations. They were coming in and there were similarities. So I got interested there. And I think I did my first talk in about 2016.

Well, you've got two things going on. Don't forget the genetics. So if there is an undiagnosed ND element, then that child may well manifest some of that, okay? And then... Psychodynamically speaking, as a couple therapist, we do look to the modelling of the family of origin. What happened in that family? What lessons did you learn there?

Well, you've got two things going on. Don't forget the genetics. So if there is an undiagnosed ND element, then that child may well manifest some of that, okay? And then... Psychodynamically speaking, as a couple therapist, we do look to the modelling of the family of origin. What happened in that family? What lessons did you learn there?

So if that family is not functioning well, you're passing on difficult models. So there's every need to find out what's going on to cause the couple distress and dysfunction. And more so if there are children present. There's no doubt in my work that children do provide. They provide a focus and a reason to improve their family life and their couple life. But it's not a reason to have children.

So if that family is not functioning well, you're passing on difficult models. So there's every need to find out what's going on to cause the couple distress and dysfunction. And more so if there are children present. There's no doubt in my work that children do provide. They provide a focus and a reason to improve their family life and their couple life. But it's not a reason to have children.

Well, I might know that game's over and it might take me a while to say it, but I think it's really sad because that is basically when the trials and tribulations have just become too repetitive. They've gone round and round and round in so many circles. They've started so many times. They've tried so many times.

Well, I might know that game's over and it might take me a while to say it, but I think it's really sad because that is basically when the trials and tribulations have just become too repetitive. They've gone round and round and round in so many circles. They've started so many times. They've tried so many times.

And between them, over the course of their relationship, the red flags, they've just missed them. It's like sliding doors. They've just missed each other. When one person is sort of really hurting and needs to talk, the other person is maybe too busy. And they have missed each other just one too many times. And that shows itself.

And between them, over the course of their relationship, the red flags, they've just missed them. It's like sliding doors. They've just missed each other. When one person is sort of really hurting and needs to talk, the other person is maybe too busy. And they have missed each other just one too many times. And that shows itself.

I mean, I did have a client just recently who said, when is enough enough? And it was so sad. But I had to say I think enough is enough. I mean, together, I think you've tried everything. And there's too much happened now. You've lost the ability to connect in the way that you might need to connect for your couple to carry on. And that was really difficult to say.

I mean, I did have a client just recently who said, when is enough enough? And it was so sad. But I had to say I think enough is enough. I mean, together, I think you've tried everything. And there's too much happened now. You've lost the ability to connect in the way that you might need to connect for your couple to carry on. And that was really difficult to say.

But actually, they both knew it anyway. They were both really suffering, and they had given it the best go. So they were both brilliant people, but it was too late. And that's sad, and it does happen.

But actually, they both knew it anyway. They were both really suffering, and they had given it the best go. So they were both brilliant people, but it was too late. And that's sad, and it does happen.

Many. Thank you. Many. No, loads of people. Loads of people. So it's really interesting how a couple does come back. So a couple of ideas here. An affair can actually break a couple or not.

Many. Thank you. Many. No, loads of people. Loads of people. So it's really interesting how a couple does come back. So a couple of ideas here. An affair can actually break a couple or not.

If we think about affairs being a symptom of a relationship that's already cracked, if we bring it down to that, the affairs already, there were cracks, otherwise it probably wouldn't have happened to that degree. So they come in with that work and then actually we look at it through a neurodivergent lens and that gives it a slightly different frame and a slightly different way of working with it.

If we think about affairs being a symptom of a relationship that's already cracked, if we bring it down to that, the affairs already, there were cracks, otherwise it probably wouldn't have happened to that degree. So they come in with that work and then actually we look at it through a neurodivergent lens and that gives it a slightly different frame and a slightly different way of working with it.

And I think from 2014, definitively, I was naming myself as somebody who knew about neurodivergence because I'd done quite a lot of research by then. Spoken to Melissa Roloff in America. Just done quite a lot of work with therapists that were then in America. Here it was more difficult because it wasn't really a thing. But, yes, so it's, well, it's 10 years, isn't it?

And I think from 2014, definitively, I was naming myself as somebody who knew about neurodivergence because I'd done quite a lot of research by then. Spoken to Melissa Roloff in America. Just done quite a lot of work with therapists that were then in America. Here it was more difficult because it wasn't really a thing. But, yes, so it's, well, it's 10 years, isn't it?

And then I'm not condoning affairs in any way, but I think as long as you've got all the information and especially the neurodivergent information, then that mix can really work and people can restart. They can rethink, okay, and they know why it happened and they can make it better. And another lovely, lovely story was a couple had been living together for a while

And then I'm not condoning affairs in any way, but I think as long as you've got all the information and especially the neurodivergent information, then that mix can really work and people can restart. They can rethink, okay, and they know why it happened and they can make it better. And another lovely, lovely story was a couple had been living together for a while

long while and they had been living separately they had children but they'd been living separately and I think they came in as a sort of a last ditch effort and they had autistic children and one of them said yes I probably am probably ADHD and did the session absolutely wonderful people wonderful people did the session and I said well have you considered that there might be other

long while and they had been living separately they had children but they'd been living separately and I think they came in as a sort of a last ditch effort and they had autistic children and one of them said yes I probably am probably ADHD and did the session absolutely wonderful people wonderful people did the session and I said well have you considered that there might be other

neurodiversity presence in the couple. Like not all lame on one side here. And it was almost like a light bulb. And they said, Oh, oh, okay. So gave them some resources. Off they went. They came back in two weeks and their couple had completely recalibrated. Of course we did loads of work to get them back together again, but it was a light bulb moment.

neurodiversity presence in the couple. Like not all lame on one side here. And it was almost like a light bulb. And they said, Oh, oh, okay. So gave them some resources. Off they went. They came back in two weeks and their couple had completely recalibrated. Of course we did loads of work to get them back together again, but it was a light bulb moment.

And actually it changed the whole couple dynamic. The fact that they now knew that it wasn't just one, it was both, and actually they had these challenges. There you go. They went off, they did the work, and they hopefully live happily ever after.

And actually it changed the whole couple dynamic. The fact that they now knew that it wasn't just one, it was both, and actually they had these challenges. There you go. They went off, they did the work, and they hopefully live happily ever after.

like that they are they have been in a bad place but then they they go away and they do the work can you come back stronger much stronger much stronger you know you've you've they they've been together quite long time actually um and they'd obviously been good at the beginning and then the trials and tribulations of their own children and the the challenges that they'd faced there had um had taken its toll the challenges of undiagnosed neurodiversity had taken its toll um

like that they are they have been in a bad place but then they they go away and they do the work can you come back stronger much stronger much stronger you know you've you've they they've been together quite long time actually um and they'd obviously been good at the beginning and then the trials and tribulations of their own children and the the challenges that they'd faced there had um had taken its toll the challenges of undiagnosed neurodiversity had taken its toll um

But they stayed together and they did the work and they're looking at another phase of their life now in a much more positive way. It's much stronger, much more positive, much more open. There's something about this... You know, life phases as well. So couples come to me at all sorts of times of their life. You can get young people who are actually, I'm really big on working out a couple deal.

But they stayed together and they did the work and they're looking at another phase of their life now in a much more positive way. It's much stronger, much more positive, much more open. There's something about this... You know, life phases as well. So couples come to me at all sorts of times of their life. You can get young people who are actually, I'm really big on working out a couple deal.

What are you actually doing? What does this couple mean for you? And that needs to be negotiated as you go through life. You know, as you go through your children, it's a different relationship. When the children are teens, it's a different relationship. When the children leave, it's a different relationship. So, yeah, it's neurodiversity has to be it's it's the same as any relationship.

What are you actually doing? What does this couple mean for you? And that needs to be negotiated as you go through life. You know, as you go through your children, it's a different relationship. When the children are teens, it's a different relationship. When the children leave, it's a different relationship. So, yeah, it's neurodiversity has to be it's it's the same as any relationship.

It's going to go through phases.

It's going to go through phases.

So interestingly, the work with ADHD Aware really, really has highlighted to me of late how some of the negative aspects of neurodiversity and how it's being talked about in the media. There's quite a lot of frustration, actually, that it's possibly trivialising the conditions. Oh, yeah, we've all got a bit of ADHD or... oh, yeah, I think I'm on the spectrum. We're all on the spectrum.

So interestingly, the work with ADHD Aware really, really has highlighted to me of late how some of the negative aspects of neurodiversity and how it's being talked about in the media. There's quite a lot of frustration, actually, that it's possibly trivialising the conditions. Oh, yeah, we've all got a bit of ADHD or... oh, yeah, I think I'm on the spectrum. We're all on the spectrum.

11, 12 years, something like that, yeah. So there's been a lot of couples.

11, 12 years, something like that, yeah. So there's been a lot of couples.

That is, it's so wrong. And it upsets a lot of people because it means that these really very, very complex conditions are not being taken seriously enough. So I think the media has a part to play here. I think we have to, it's fantastic that neurodiversity finally has a voice. It's how we use that voice. It's how that voice is now going to be used by people like yourself.

That is, it's so wrong. And it upsets a lot of people because it means that these really very, very complex conditions are not being taken seriously enough. So I think the media has a part to play here. I think we have to, it's fantastic that neurodiversity finally has a voice. It's how we use that voice. It's how that voice is now going to be used by people like yourself.

How that is going to be actioned and what it requires to educate and to integrate. Neurodivergence has been with us forever.

How that is going to be actioned and what it requires to educate and to integrate. Neurodivergence has been with us forever.

always been there um and it is really very much part of the new world that we live in you know these neurodivergent brains are fantastically able to move in this new environment this global this global technological environment they are with kids at it now whilst there might have been a lot of challenges a lot of challenges in a society that was more closed

always been there um and it is really very much part of the new world that we live in you know these neurodivergent brains are fantastically able to move in this new environment this global this global technological environment they are with kids at it now whilst there might have been a lot of challenges a lot of challenges in a society that was more closed

and perhaps more structured and perhaps more ruled by religion or local community or attitudes. That's not the case anymore. So neurodivergence, I think, we're coming into the age of it. And so within a couple, it needs to be seen as for its full potential. It really does. And the media needs to sort of start talking about it in that positive way, I think.

and perhaps more structured and perhaps more ruled by religion or local community or attitudes. That's not the case anymore. So neurodivergence, I think, we're coming into the age of it. And so within a couple, it needs to be seen as for its full potential. It really does. And the media needs to sort of start talking about it in that positive way, I think.

Fantastic fun. Spontaneity. Bringing the other into the moment, into the now. The fit is usually that the fit, the couple fit, is often that one is a bit more serious, one is a bit more loaded down with life. This comes back to what we were talking about earlier. You do have a pretty classical couple fit where there'll be, if you're talking ND and NT, you have a pretty classical fit where...

Fantastic fun. Spontaneity. Bringing the other into the moment, into the now. The fit is usually that the fit, the couple fit, is often that one is a bit more serious, one is a bit more loaded down with life. This comes back to what we were talking about earlier. You do have a pretty classical couple fit where there'll be, if you're talking ND and NT, you have a pretty classical fit where...

Both people have lived their lives with highly developed defences, OK? The ND has defended in terms of masking and trying to fit in and adapting and mirroring and all of the stuff that we know. But the NT has done it as well. The NT is usually really quite highly...

Both people have lived their lives with highly developed defences, OK? The ND has defended in terms of masking and trying to fit in and adapting and mirroring and all of the stuff that we know. But the NT has done it as well. The NT is usually really quite highly...

highly able and they've got there usually through some sort of early adultization in their world, being the one that had to care in a family, being the one that maybe had to grow up very early due to a divorce. If I look at the couples, I can almost always find that early trauma in the partners, in their so-called together partners. So it's mutual. It's a mutual fit. Yeah.

highly able and they've got there usually through some sort of early adultization in their world, being the one that had to care in a family, being the one that maybe had to grow up very early due to a divorce. If I look at the couples, I can almost always find that early trauma in the partners, in their so-called together partners. So it's mutual. It's a mutual fit. Yeah.

Ah, inflammatory to the community, I think it probably is. I think there has to be, as I said earlier, I think there has to be an integration. There has to be some sort of acceptance that the disabilities are challenges of different levels. Okay, so it's not, of course, some people are highly challenged and some people are not so challenged.

Ah, inflammatory to the community, I think it probably is. I think there has to be, as I said earlier, I think there has to be an integration. There has to be some sort of acceptance that the disabilities are challenges of different levels. Okay, so it's not, of course, some people are highly challenged and some people are not so challenged.

But how it shows up in a relationship, if it is seen as a disability, then you have inequality. And I don't work with it like that. I work with it as a set of challenges. And both people in that couple have a set of challenges. And somehow we have to tease out the strengths and the capacities, the tolerance levels and the abilities of that couple to manage.

But how it shows up in a relationship, if it is seen as a disability, then you have inequality. And I don't work with it like that. I work with it as a set of challenges. And both people in that couple have a set of challenges. And somehow we have to tease out the strengths and the capacities, the tolerance levels and the abilities of that couple to manage.

Because the minute you set it up as some sort of disability, you've got a carer or you've got somebody who might need to care. And that's really how the relationships start to go wrong because there's too much pressure put on one or one is taking up too much of the flack. They're over-facilitating. The minute you have that over-facilitation in a couple, you're disabling the other.

Because the minute you set it up as some sort of disability, you've got a carer or you've got somebody who might need to care. And that's really how the relationships start to go wrong because there's too much pressure put on one or one is taking up too much of the flack. They're over-facilitating. The minute you have that over-facilitation in a couple, you're disabling the other.

Yes, I think there are more extreme challenges when there's ADHD, AS, ND in a relationship. I just want to add here that actually that's getting less, I believe, because people are so much more informed about these conditions. When I first started working, nobody knew. And that was a critical tipping point when people suddenly understood, OK, I've got ADHD. then this actually changes things.

Yes, I think there are more extreme challenges when there's ADHD, AS, ND in a relationship. I just want to add here that actually that's getting less, I believe, because people are so much more informed about these conditions. When I first started working, nobody knew. And that was a critical tipping point when people suddenly understood, OK, I've got ADHD. then this actually changes things.

The minute somebody's seeing it, oh, you can't do that because you've got ADHD. No, I can't do that, but I can do this. So I might do it a different way because I think differently to you. So what about us doing it this way? It has to be like that. You've got to harness both sets of challenges and both sets of skills. But it's hard because, you know, the ADHD brain, it works differently.

The minute somebody's seeing it, oh, you can't do that because you've got ADHD. No, I can't do that, but I can do this. So I might do it a different way because I think differently to you. So what about us doing it this way? It has to be like that. You've got to harness both sets of challenges and both sets of skills. But it's hard because, you know, the ADHD brain, it works differently.

And the partners often can't keep up. So they're not really sure about the solutions that are being offered. Right. That's the work.

And the partners often can't keep up. So they're not really sure about the solutions that are being offered. Right. That's the work.

Even if you've got two NDs in a relationship, doesn't necessarily mean that those NDs are complementary.

Even if you've got two NDs in a relationship, doesn't necessarily mean that those NDs are complementary.

Because of the massive differences in the way that the processing is present in the couple, there's massive differences. They have to be harnessed. They have to be worked on together. You can't do it independently. One can't do it on their own. The other can't do it on their own.

Because of the massive differences in the way that the processing is present in the couple, there's massive differences. They have to be harnessed. They have to be worked on together. You can't do it independently. One can't do it on their own. The other can't do it on their own.

The whole concept of a couple is that you build a solid base for both of you to go off, have your autonomous lives, and have your interdependent lives and a really great time together.

The whole concept of a couple is that you build a solid base for both of you to go off, have your autonomous lives, and have your interdependent lives and a really great time together.

But that unity, that unifying of the couple in the face of the challenges, whether they're neurodiversity or not, the unification of the thinking, the talents, the skills, the quirks, just being able to unify over these things and have your own language and understand each other's needs. Do you know how many couples I see that actually have no idea of each other's needs? It's remarkable.

But that unity, that unifying of the couple in the face of the challenges, whether they're neurodiversity or not, the unification of the thinking, the talents, the skills, the quirks, just being able to unify over these things and have your own language and understand each other's needs. Do you know how many couples I see that actually have no idea of each other's needs? It's remarkable.

But that conversation hasn't come into the sort of the maelstrom of life. They're too busy or they haven't really identified it. They haven't sat down and talked about it. And that's the beauty of the work of a couple therapist, particularly it gives a place and a space and provokes thinking around those things.

But that conversation hasn't come into the sort of the maelstrom of life. They're too busy or they haven't really identified it. They haven't sat down and talked about it. And that's the beauty of the work of a couple therapist, particularly it gives a place and a space and provokes thinking around those things.

Yes, Kitty.

Yes, Kitty.

It is. Yes. What is it, Kitty? Hello, Kitty. Hello, Kitty. There she is. Hello, Kitty.

It is. Yes. What is it, Kitty? Hello, Kitty. Hello, Kitty. There she is. Hello, Kitty.

Why? Okay, so you wanted me to bring something that I might be able to explain something about. So... When we're talking about that language, OK, that couple language, one of the things that I try to get couples to identify is something that they focus on together. So, in fact, the last couple, it was their cat. All right. They adored this cat. It was a child. It was the child of them.

Why? Okay, so you wanted me to bring something that I might be able to explain something about. So... When we're talking about that language, OK, that couple language, one of the things that I try to get couples to identify is something that they focus on together. So, in fact, the last couple, it was their cat. All right. They adored this cat. It was a child. It was the child of them.

It's a different lens. But there are definite challenges. There's challenges in every relationship. You know, long-term relationships are nothing other than hard work and lots of love, lots of resilience, lots of coming back. But they're worth it. I think they're worth it. If you see people who do it, they will all say, well, you know, it was worth it. But definitely there are specific challenges.

It's a different lens. But there are definite challenges. There's challenges in every relationship. You know, long-term relationships are nothing other than hard work and lots of love, lots of resilience, lots of coming back. But they're worth it. I think they're worth it. If you see people who do it, they will all say, well, you know, it was worth it. But definitely there are specific challenges.

And so they used their cat's name as the little bit of a code word or the way to indicate to each other that actually they weren't feeling great, something was going wrong, they didn't want to go round the roundabout again or they didn't want to get in the ring because they knew it would go to an escalation or something like that. So it can be all sorts of things. It can be a favourite food.

And so they used their cat's name as the little bit of a code word or the way to indicate to each other that actually they weren't feeling great, something was going wrong, they didn't want to go round the roundabout again or they didn't want to get in the ring because they knew it would go to an escalation or something like that. So it can be all sorts of things. It can be a favourite food.

It can be...

It can be...

a place they travel together but what it needs to symbolize is a time when the couple is good why the couple is together so somehow i get them to think of that and i it can't just be a word plucked off the shelf it's got to be something it's got to be it needs to have meaning for both of them so that when it's going off they can actually think ah okay let's do let's think about our couple let this is representative of our couple fine i'm going to walk away

a place they travel together but what it needs to symbolize is a time when the couple is good why the couple is together so somehow i get them to think of that and i it can't just be a word plucked off the shelf it's got to be something it's got to be it needs to have meaning for both of them so that when it's going off they can actually think ah okay let's do let's think about our couple let this is representative of our couple fine i'm going to walk away

And that's why I brought the cat in because everybody in that language, the couple need to have a symbol for when they're good and loving and why they're together.

And that's why I brought the cat in because everybody in that language, the couple need to have a symbol for when they're good and loving and why they're together.

It doesn't matter. It's whatever they value. It's something that they can think about and both bring a smile to both faces and think, yeah, I remember that was when we were really good. And use that. You're using it. You're working with a therapist who's trying very hard to get you to change habits.

It doesn't matter. It's whatever they value. It's something that they can think about and both bring a smile to both faces and think, yeah, I remember that was when we were really good. And use that. You're using it. You're working with a therapist who's trying very hard to get you to change habits.

And so one of the ways of changing habits is to try and write the script that when these things are going wrong, and they're very predictable, you've got emotional dysregulation, RSD, withdrawal, overwhelm. We know the symptoms as they happen, so let's have a language around them that can really remind both members of the party why they're there.

And so one of the ways of changing habits is to try and write the script that when these things are going wrong, and they're very predictable, you've got emotional dysregulation, RSD, withdrawal, overwhelm. We know the symptoms as they happen, so let's have a language around them that can really remind both members of the party why they're there.

I do not, Alex, but I scream at my kids because they do.

I do not, Alex, but I scream at my kids because they do.

Well, you definitely have to stop shouting because that's just underpinning everything he already thinks. So your first clue is actually you're not going to shout. You're not going to shout. You're going to furnish him with loads of information about your brilliance and your ADHD and how it shows up. Then you're going to sit down and talk to him about the things that you don't find quite so easy.

Well, you definitely have to stop shouting because that's just underpinning everything he already thinks. So your first clue is actually you're not going to shout. You're not going to shout. You're going to furnish him with loads of information about your brilliance and your ADHD and how it shows up. Then you're going to sit down and talk to him about the things that you don't find quite so easy.

You don't find quite so easy in how you can just get a little bit agitated and basically you're going to educate your partner around what happens to you because he or she probably doesn't know, probably doesn't understand it. And the more that you shout, the more that you both shout, the more that you get in the ring, the more you fight, that's not going to help anything.

You don't find quite so easy in how you can just get a little bit agitated and basically you're going to educate your partner around what happens to you because he or she probably doesn't know, probably doesn't understand it. And the more that you shout, the more that you both shout, the more that you get in the ring, the more you fight, that's not going to help anything.

It's just going to reinforce the fact that actually, ooh, that ADHD, don't really know what to do with that child. You can't do that. So it is about not shouting first and foremost and then telling them all the good things and the challenges. But the good things first, please, because there's so many of them.

It's just going to reinforce the fact that actually, ooh, that ADHD, don't really know what to do with that child. You can't do that. So it is about not shouting first and foremost and then telling them all the good things and the challenges. But the good things first, please, because there's so many of them.

Come on, any one of us likes a bit of praise and a little bit of, you know, we don't have to be endy to really, you know, respond well to that. The things that, it's so simple. It's kindness. It's receptivity, if you like, reciprocity. It's being, it's so important to sort of lay those positive foundations just to be kind. So many people lose the habit of being kind to their partner.

Come on, any one of us likes a bit of praise and a little bit of, you know, we don't have to be endy to really, you know, respond well to that. The things that, it's so simple. It's kindness. It's receptivity, if you like, reciprocity. It's being, it's so important to sort of lay those positive foundations just to be kind. So many people lose the habit of being kind to their partner.

And it makes such a difference. Um, I was in a session a few days ago and we were talking about, you remember that defensive response. And, um, actually it was on a, it was on a group call. It's this, this couple calls that I've written for ADHD aware. So everybody must get on there. But, um, we were talking about how the, we, to, to create a narrative, a kind narrative and,

And it makes such a difference. Um, I was in a session a few days ago and we were talking about, you remember that defensive response. And, um, actually it was on a, it was on a group call. It's this, this couple calls that I've written for ADHD aware. So everybody must get on there. But, um, we were talking about how the, we, to, to create a narrative, a kind narrative and,

Instead of launching into, so a couple are having a conversation and somebody gets triggered, but instead of launching into a defense, actually having a script, you know, thank you for saying that. I'm going to think about that and move away. It just changes the whole tone of the conversation for both.

Instead of launching into, so a couple are having a conversation and somebody gets triggered, but instead of launching into a defense, actually having a script, you know, thank you for saying that. I'm going to think about that and move away. It just changes the whole tone of the conversation for both.

for both just trying to not lose that just trying to not become that sort of agitated impassioned aggressive person and just try and hold it and be positive and say god that's great thank you thank you thank you and then then what go away and calm down but just changing the narrative changing the script it just makes such a difference and being positive being positive about it you know we've got a great relationship we just have we've just got challenges

for both just trying to not lose that just trying to not become that sort of agitated impassioned aggressive person and just try and hold it and be positive and say god that's great thank you thank you thank you and then then what go away and calm down but just changing the narrative changing the script it just makes such a difference and being positive being positive about it you know we've got a great relationship we just have we've just got challenges

You're just going to dilute the impact. You're going to say, no, that was brilliant. Thank you. No, that's great. Thank you. That's it. That's all about reciprocity, isn't it? Understanding, sort of being compassionate, being able to understand what's going on.

You're just going to dilute the impact. You're going to say, no, that was brilliant. Thank you. No, that's great. Thank you. That's it. That's all about reciprocity, isn't it? Understanding, sort of being compassionate, being able to understand what's going on.

Three rules to live by. Oh, how fascinating. I like this. Three rules to live by. Prioritize yourself. Putting yourself first means you can look after others. Be kind. It costs no money and everyone can be kind. Always think about what you eat. Eating better is great fuel for your brain. Not wrong. Not wrong. Oh, this is Louise Newsome. I love her.

Three rules to live by. Oh, how fascinating. I like this. Three rules to live by. Prioritize yourself. Putting yourself first means you can look after others. Be kind. It costs no money and everyone can be kind. Always think about what you eat. Eating better is great fuel for your brain. Not wrong. Not wrong. Oh, this is Louise Newsome. I love her.

That prioritize yourself. It's of course what everyone has to do. And ironically, in couples, the partners of adders or ND can often think that there's too much prioritizing of self going on when in reality, there's none. There's none. What they're mistaking as prioritizing of self is actually recovery, is actually trying to stay in the world, trying to stay upright in the world.

That prioritize yourself. It's of course what everyone has to do. And ironically, in couples, the partners of adders or ND can often think that there's too much prioritizing of self going on when in reality, there's none. There's none. What they're mistaking as prioritizing of self is actually recovery, is actually trying to stay in the world, trying to stay upright in the world.

And it's not actually looking after themselves. So it's... Couples, I'm really, really, really passionate now about couples taking care of each other and making sure, particularly we know, I mean, James Cousteau has written beautifully about this, how it's not just the brain, it's the body. You have to look after the body. Movement is critical, you know, keeping everything healthy.

And it's not actually looking after themselves. So it's... Couples, I'm really, really, really passionate now about couples taking care of each other and making sure, particularly we know, I mean, James Cousteau has written beautifully about this, how it's not just the brain, it's the body. You have to look after the body. Movement is critical, you know, keeping everything healthy.

So looking after yourself, I believe, is absolutely a priority.

So looking after yourself, I believe, is absolutely a priority.

Absolutely. Absolutely. But with the ND relationships, you just have to be careful that the partner doesn't think that you're that you're self-obsessed. All right. Because that that that sort of that over focus on anything actually can feel like you're not taking care or that or can feel as if you are spending time on yourself and you're not. You're not at all.

Absolutely. Absolutely. But with the ND relationships, you just have to be careful that the partner doesn't think that you're that you're self-obsessed. All right. Because that that that sort of that over focus on anything actually can feel like you're not taking care or that or can feel as if you are spending time on yourself and you're not. You're not at all.

You're doing all of the things I just mentioned, recovery, thinking, wondering if you did something wrong, how could I have done it better? Not taking care. And be kind, of course. Of course, be kind. It makes the world go round and it doesn't cost anything.

You're doing all of the things I just mentioned, recovery, thinking, wondering if you did something wrong, how could I have done it better? Not taking care. And be kind, of course. Of course, be kind. It makes the world go round and it doesn't cost anything.

Well, Jekyll and Hyde comes in a lot. Yes, it does. And I've heard that said an awful lot. Interestingly, less these days. Less these days as partners and couples are more aware. But it's true, isn't it? What you're really talking about is mood regulation. And it is one of the most difficult aspects.

Well, Jekyll and Hyde comes in a lot. Yes, it does. And I've heard that said an awful lot. Interestingly, less these days. Less these days as partners and couples are more aware. But it's true, isn't it? What you're really talking about is mood regulation. And it is one of the most difficult aspects.

Thanks for having me. Lovely chatting to you. Thank you.

Thanks for having me. Lovely chatting to you. Thank you.

aspects of nd um you know people wake up in different moods everybody does that alex you know we all wake up in a different mood but if you if there's a if it triggers and it changes from one from one mood to another in a rapid in a rapid sort of sequence it can confuse people it's it's difficult but again it's partners recognizing what's going on both of them recognizing that make that sort of dilutes the intensity of it i think or the impact of it

aspects of nd um you know people wake up in different moods everybody does that alex you know we all wake up in a different mood but if you if there's a if it triggers and it changes from one from one mood to another in a rapid in a rapid sort of sequence it can confuse people it's it's difficult but again it's partners recognizing what's going on both of them recognizing that make that sort of dilutes the intensity of it i think or the impact of it

Well, that's probably the attraction, isn't it? You know, that very regimented person needs a bit of a chaotic, creative mash-up to get, you know, the other side to start living something else. So it's probably part of the original attraction. Sadly, like in any couple, original attractions can cause the most problems. But it's management of that, isn't it? It's management of it.

Well, that's probably the attraction, isn't it? You know, that very regimented person needs a bit of a chaotic, creative mash-up to get, you know, the other side to start living something else. So it's probably part of the original attraction. Sadly, like in any couple, original attractions can cause the most problems. But it's management of that, isn't it? It's management of it.

And actually, you know, a couple working together, that order could help the chaos a little bit, as long as it doesn't cause head-to-heads.

And actually, you know, a couple working together, that order could help the chaos a little bit, as long as it doesn't cause head-to-heads.

Mood dysregulation is a big one, and included in that is the RSD, rejection sensitivity dysphoria, which is, as you know, has now been sort of explains some of the mood dysregulation. That is definitely a constant. The communication issues.

Mood dysregulation is a big one, and included in that is the RSD, rejection sensitivity dysphoria, which is, as you know, has now been sort of explains some of the mood dysregulation. That is definitely a constant. The communication issues.

How many couples I see that actually have no idea of each other's needs. It's remarkable whether they're neurodiversity or not. The unification of the thinking, the talents, the skills, the quirks, just being able to unify over these things. But that conversation hasn't come into the maelstrom of life.

How many couples I see that actually have no idea of each other's needs. It's remarkable whether they're neurodiversity or not. The unification of the thinking, the talents, the skills, the quirks, just being able to unify over these things. But that conversation hasn't come into the maelstrom of life.

The way that the different brains process information, experience things, that difference is difficult because people, not so much these days, but people sometimes assume that the other is the same as them because they love them so much. They just assume, oh, well, we're the same. And it's just not with an ND relationship. Even if you've got two NDs in a relationship, it doesn't necessarily mean

The way that the different brains process information, experience things, that difference is difficult because people, not so much these days, but people sometimes assume that the other is the same as them because they love them so much. They just assume, oh, well, we're the same. And it's just not with an ND relationship. Even if you've got two NDs in a relationship, it doesn't necessarily mean

that those NDs are complementary, okay? They can still be very different and need to be known.

that those NDs are complementary, okay? They can still be very different and need to be known.

Oh, I really hope not. I'd work to not let that happen. You're not unlovable. RSD is a reaction, okay? It's a reaction. It's part of the condition. It's how you process information. Now, how you process information is very much dependent on your experience and where you've come from. So when you get triggered by the RSD, it's important to start recognizing it as such.

Oh, I really hope not. I'd work to not let that happen. You're not unlovable. RSD is a reaction, okay? It's a reaction. It's part of the condition. It's how you process information. Now, how you process information is very much dependent on your experience and where you've come from. So when you get triggered by the RSD, it's important to start recognizing it as such.

It's not going to make it go away. It's not going to make it hurt less, really. But it is a matter of understanding that actually perhaps there wasn't the intention that I may have attributed to it. That helps. That helps moderate it. It doesn't stop the pain because that is visceral. I know. But it can help moderate and manage and rationalize if you can just step back from that and remember it.

It's not going to make it go away. It's not going to make it hurt less, really. But it is a matter of understanding that actually perhaps there wasn't the intention that I may have attributed to it. That helps. That helps moderate it. It doesn't stop the pain because that is visceral. I know. But it can help moderate and manage and rationalize if you can just step back from that and remember it.

But unlovable not.

But unlovable not.

Mood dysregulation is a big one, and included in that is the RSD. Communication issues. The way that the different brains process information, that difference is difficult because people... sometimes assume that the other is the same as them because they love them so much. They just assume, oh, well, we're the same. And it's just not.

Mood dysregulation is a big one, and included in that is the RSD. Communication issues. The way that the different brains process information, that difference is difficult because people... sometimes assume that the other is the same as them because they love them so much. They just assume, oh, well, we're the same. And it's just not.

Yeah, that's right. That's what happens. Because what the RSD leads to is a defense. Somehow that person is going to defend themselves. Okay. And they are then going to push their partner or whoever they're interacting with away. They need to do that because they, first of all, they've got to recover.

Yeah, that's right. That's what happens. Because what the RSD leads to is a defense. Somehow that person is going to defend themselves. Okay. And they are then going to push their partner or whoever they're interacting with away. They need to do that because they, first of all, they've got to recover.

time to recover so pushing somebody away is the first way of of being able to do that um and so that defensive response becomes very live in relationships and it's it's It's there all the time. Partners need to recognise that because obviously defensive responses close down communication.

time to recover so pushing somebody away is the first way of of being able to do that um and so that defensive response becomes very live in relationships and it's it's It's there all the time. Partners need to recognise that because obviously defensive responses close down communication.

Once you've moved to defence, once that has happened, once perhaps the person who's been triggered with RSD throws out a defensive statement, the other one might come back.

Once you've moved to defence, once that has happened, once perhaps the person who's been triggered with RSD throws out a defensive statement, the other one might come back.

to protect themselves or defend themselves well the conversation's gone it's over you've closed down the conversation but we the narrative around um the development of uh the development of nd we know that it's got a developmental lag we know all the issues they're well well documented that NDs can come across in their development.

to protect themselves or defend themselves well the conversation's gone it's over you've closed down the conversation but we the narrative around um the development of uh the development of nd we know that it's got a developmental lag we know all the issues they're well well documented that NDs can come across in their development.

We know that and so we understand that the RSD is there and it needs to be defended against. It's not until, interestingly, because what that ultimately leads people to feel is not good enough. You're saying unlovable. In my room, it would be actually you don't feel good enough. You are withdrawing from your partner because you haven't got the confidence.

We know that and so we understand that the RSD is there and it needs to be defended against. It's not until, interestingly, because what that ultimately leads people to feel is not good enough. You're saying unlovable. In my room, it would be actually you don't feel good enough. You are withdrawing from your partner because you haven't got the confidence.

You don't feel good enough to actually be honest, open, and vulnerable. Because the minute you can be, it changes the narrative. The minute that you no longer defend but say, oh, I'm really hurt. I need a moment to recover. It changes the conversation. It changes the situation immediately. But that takes confidence. It takes feeling good enough to be able to do it.

You don't feel good enough to actually be honest, open, and vulnerable. Because the minute you can be, it changes the narrative. The minute that you no longer defend but say, oh, I'm really hurt. I need a moment to recover. It changes the conversation. It changes the situation immediately. But that takes confidence. It takes feeling good enough to be able to do it.

And for me, that happens post-diagnosis a lot of the time.

And for me, that happens post-diagnosis a lot of the time.

I think sometimes, I think there's a few ingredients in that sort of mix there. I think sometimes, A, there's a lack of confidence, so you can't really communicate with your partner. B, there's an incredible frustration and anger at your previous experience. And that leads you to sort of can't be bothered actually to explain.

I think sometimes, I think there's a few ingredients in that sort of mix there. I think sometimes, A, there's a lack of confidence, so you can't really communicate with your partner. B, there's an incredible frustration and anger at your previous experience. And that leads you to sort of can't be bothered actually to explain.

Thank you for having me. So nice to be back.

Thank you for having me. So nice to be back.

You just get caught up in this melee of sort of anger, frustration, sadness, disappointment and can't be bothered. It's too much. And you move to overwhelm. And then that's it, isn't it? You've moved to overwhelm and there's no conversation. So it's one of the first things that has to be worked with in my room. Okay, how do we deal with this? How do we manage it?

You just get caught up in this melee of sort of anger, frustration, sadness, disappointment and can't be bothered. It's too much. And you move to overwhelm. And then that's it, isn't it? You've moved to overwhelm and there's no conversation. So it's one of the first things that has to be worked with in my room. Okay, how do we deal with this? How do we manage it?

How do we get you thinking about pausing? How do we get the partners to understand? I mean, how do you both deal with it if you're both ADHD and you're both triggered? Come on, how are we going to do that? How are we going to knock that out? How are we going to calm that down? So it is all about recognition and strategies.

How do we get you thinking about pausing? How do we get the partners to understand? I mean, how do you both deal with it if you're both ADHD and you're both triggered? Come on, how are we going to do that? How are we going to knock that out? How are we going to calm that down? So it is all about recognition and strategies.

Oh, definitely. That's part of some of the problems that come into the room is that partners become so hypervigilant around their partners that they're constantly sort of Walking on eggshells, over-facilitating, trying to avoid, trying to calm down, and they don't. And it's all done with the partners just assuming that that's what's going on. The actual ND might not know.

Oh, definitely. That's part of some of the problems that come into the room is that partners become so hypervigilant around their partners that they're constantly sort of Walking on eggshells, over-facilitating, trying to avoid, trying to calm down, and they don't. And it's all done with the partners just assuming that that's what's going on. The actual ND might not know.

Might not know that they're moving towards that. And it's a big issue. It's a big issue in couples how the one partner might walk on eggshells just a tad too often. Mm-hmm. And the ND is not aware, not aware of the hurt that the partner's feeling or the fear that the partner's feeling of triggering.

Might not know that they're moving towards that. And it's a big issue. It's a big issue in couples how the one partner might walk on eggshells just a tad too often. Mm-hmm. And the ND is not aware, not aware of the hurt that the partner's feeling or the fear that the partner's feeling of triggering.

And often the partner, I mean, it's only recently that RSD has come into the mix the last few years. Often the partners have no idea what's going on. They just know, oh, this could trigger either an escalation or a withdrawal. And so they walk on the eggshells.

And often the partner, I mean, it's only recently that RSD has come into the mix the last few years. Often the partners have no idea what's going on. They just know, oh, this could trigger either an escalation or a withdrawal. And so they walk on the eggshells.

So that's a good question. My mission has always been that I really believe in relationships. I really believe that we function so much better in relation to others and that it's just such a rich vein, a rich avenue to personally develop, develop communities, all sorts of things. And it's been a passion forever. I trained as a couple therapist. I didn't train as an individual therapist.

So that's a good question. My mission has always been that I really believe in relationships. I really believe that we function so much better in relation to others and that it's just such a rich vein, a rich avenue to personally develop, develop communities, all sorts of things. And it's been a passion forever. I trained as a couple therapist. I didn't train as an individual therapist.