Josh Dubin
Appearances
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2287 - Josh Dubin & J.D. Tomlinson
Well, you're going to get to that. The way that J.D. made enemies in Ohio and that town is because he had the audacity. He had the nerve to say, I see two innocent people in another case and I'm going to exonerate them. And that is the beginning of his issues in Ohio. So, I mean, if you want to hear from J.D.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2287 - Josh Dubin & J.D. Tomlinson
's perspective, because what ensued and what has happened in the months since has been one of the most shocking events. disturbing, frankly, disgusting displays of what I think is ego and abuse of the system, in my opinion, that two of these four men are still in prison.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2287 - Josh Dubin & J.D. Tomlinson
And two of them are only out because they paroled out, but they're on parole as convicted murderers for a crime they didn't commit. So, I mean, I don't know. It'd be interesting to hear J.D. 's perspective on that call. And I then met with him right before Thanksgiving and we had a big rally. In Ohio, Derek Hamilton, who's the deputy director of the Perlmutter Center, was there.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2287 - Josh Dubin & J.D. Tomlinson
We organized a bunch of folks in the community, a lot of coverage on local news. And then the next day I met with J.D. and his team and presented essentially about a two-hour, three-hour closing argument where I showed him all the evidence in the case.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2287 - Josh Dubin & J.D. Tomlinson
Based on nothing other than there was a lot of commotion in the community, understandably so, that there were people from out of town selling drugs. No question, my client and these other three guys were involved in selling drugs. And they wanted drugs off the street in Lorain. So they immediately start looking at them. This woman is found behind a shopping center, horribly, savagely murdered.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2287 - Josh Dubin & J.D. Tomlinson
She is stabbed multiple times. Her throat is cut. Her name is Marsha Blakely. She had been run over by a car. It was obvious because there were tire marks on her body. And several hours later that morning, someone that she lived with, gentleman by the name of Epps was found murdered in strikingly similar fashion. So the police are investigating this crime and run into a dead end.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2287 - Josh Dubin & J.D. Tomlinson
This is going to be wild. This is J.D. Tomlinson, the former prosecuting attorney for Lorain County, Ohio. And for the listeners, prosecuting attorney is similar to a D.A. in most jurisdictions. They just call it the prosecuting attorney. He was the head attorney in Lorain County, Ohio. That's correct. Up until January.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2287 - Josh Dubin & J.D. Tomlinson
So this is what's going on while I'm trying to get his attention. And I have no fucking idea about any of that. I'm losing my mind.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2287 - Josh Dubin & J.D. Tomlinson
Oh, my God. So I then, when I made contact with J.D., he started explaining this to me. And I'm very, I approach this work like a surgeon. Or how I picture a surgeon would approach an operation. I'm single handedly focused on making the kidney transplant or whatever. And however you want to analogize it. So I was hearing him, but I was kind of. Of the mindset that those are your problems.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2287 - Josh Dubin & J.D. Tomlinson
I understand. This sounds wild. But I said, you should now know what it feels like because I was pissed that he wasn't paying attention because these guys were so remarkably, in my mind, so demonstrably innocent. J.D., why didn't you contact him?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2287 - Josh Dubin & J.D. Tomlinson
I've said it before. I'll say it again. I don't care what your opinion is of that man. To have the metal... To face what he faced and continue on a path of getting anything accomplished, let alone what he accomplished, if you don't stand up and cheer for that, the human cost of these prosecutions, you're hearing it right now. I still haven't gotten over it.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2287 - Josh Dubin & J.D. Tomlinson
They have no leads. They don't have any evidence. And they're searching for the perpetrators. So the Lorain County prosecutor's office goes public with the offer of an award. They offer $2,500 to anybody that has information about this crime. The next day or a couple of days later, in walks a man named William Avery Sr., who is no stranger to the Lorain County Police Department.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2287 - Josh Dubin & J.D. Tomlinson
Well, look, I think that quite obviously there are prosecutions that need to happen when someone commits a violent crime when there's domestic abuse when there's robbery all of that that's not for sure the what should not be lost on people because you are you saw it play out on a national stage with the president you are now hearing about it in a smaller you know
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2287 - Josh Dubin & J.D. Tomlinson
not a small town, but a smaller jurisdiction. And the irony of this, it struck me as I was speaking to JD the first time, is here's a man that's fighting for his life. And I just, I mean, I'll confess to you, I used it to say, I continually said to JD, imagine you have to go through this for 30 years behind bars. So when I finally got through to him, That night.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2287 - Josh Dubin & J.D. Tomlinson
We must have spoke eight times that night. He was – he knew that there was a problem with this case and he was creating in his – understandably so, we don't have time for me to actually sit and listen to you and go through the evidence again because he had been through it before in the Ohio 4 case.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2287 - Josh Dubin & J.D. Tomlinson
So as Dame Fortune would have it, I don't know where I heard that, but the way it worked out is that three or four days after we spoke, the charges against J.D. were dropped. The election happened. Yeah. He gets defeated in the election. It had its intended effect, I guess, in my opinion. That's why else. But they dropped the case. So now his problem went away for the time being.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2287 - Josh Dubin & J.D. Tomlinson
So he became a lot more singularly focused. So by the time I got to Ohio and I had a team of lawyers that were representing the other three men, and I felt like I had a more captive audience at that point. And... You know, what happens from here and what what leads us to today is, in my mind, just as perverse as the irony of him getting wrongfully accused of a crime. Because I presented to J.D.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2287 - Josh Dubin & J.D. Tomlinson
and, you know, at one point he welled up. To prove a negative is one of the most difficult things. Our standard is the presumption of innocence. When someone is already convicted and they're wrongfully convicted, in order for you to get someone in JD's position there, he was tough on me, as he should have been.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2287 - Josh Dubin & J.D. Tomlinson
But I had to prove a negative because I had to prove that Al Cleveland was not in Ohio when this happened, which frankly became easy to prove because we were able to show that he was in New York visiting his probation officer on a different drug case. He had Damon John, who of Shark Tank fame, was with him the day that this allegedly happened. People saw him all over New York.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2287 - Josh Dubin & J.D. Tomlinson
There were John Edwards, who's my client, had alibi witnesses all over the place. And if Al Cleveland is in New York, this never happened because William Avery Jr. 's story was that Al Cleveland was there leading the charge and they're beating this woman to death.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2287 - Josh Dubin & J.D. Tomlinson
So when I was there and by the time I was done presenting to JD and his chief of staff, they asked if they could have some time and get back to us. And we said, well, if you guys are going to go chat, we're here in Ohio. You know, I'd come in from New York and the other attorneys had come from other parts of Ohio and we stayed for several hours.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2287 - Josh Dubin & J.D. Tomlinson
I had already extended my trip. Interesting, because he didn't make a decision until sometime about a week later, but... I never asked you what your impression was at that moment after we met.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2287 - Josh Dubin & J.D. Tomlinson
He had been a paid informant for them for a long time. And he comes in and he speaks to detectives and they say everything you're in essence, they say everything you're telling us has been public. You know, you need to give us more information. He then, that week, brings his son in, William Avery Jr., and his son claims to have information about the case.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2287 - Josh Dubin & J.D. Tomlinson
And he, I think, realized, he told me this morning when we were talking, he said, I knew you weren't going away. Tenacious.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2287 - Josh Dubin & J.D. Tomlinson
Well, Joe, it's supposed to be the grand jury system. And you know what? Most people don't know this. There's a judge in New York that has a very famous quote, which is you can indict a ham sandwich. You can get a grand jury to believe anything because the standard is much lower than it is to convict. It's that they have to be convinced. What is it?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2287 - Josh Dubin & J.D. Tomlinson
There are other jurisdictions, both federal and state, where there's more. But what happens is, and something that people don't know, is that the defense is not allowed to present anything. The defense lawyer is not allowed to be there. So it is quite literally—this is not hyperbole. It is quite literally a one-sided affair.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2287 - Josh Dubin & J.D. Tomlinson
The number of cases that go before grand juries and don't get indicted is so infinitesimal that it's probably less than .0001%. It's probably not even statistically significant.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2287 - Josh Dubin & J.D. Tomlinson
You've just stumbled into what is a wormhole. Because you've brought up so many issues that are so mired in politics and statutes that, in my mind, make no sense. You would be upending such an institution that it would cause a revolution. And it's, in fact— not that revolutionary of an idea. It's not. Fairness? If it were ever possible, I would venture to say that
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2287 - Josh Dubin & J.D. Tomlinson
And they tell him, you know, you're not telling us enough. He comes back about a week later and he says, well, I know the guys that did this. And he blames the murder on Al Cleveland, John Edwards, Lenworth Edwards and Benson Davis. And he claims that Al Cleveland confessed it to him. So they start investigating this man, William Avery Jr. 's account of what happened.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2287 - Josh Dubin & J.D. Tomlinson
These times make me feel like about anything is possible.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2287 - Josh Dubin & J.D. Tomlinson
Well, you know where you can start, which is an easier fix? If there's accountability, and I say easier fix because I don't want to throw cold water on your idea. It's a fantastic idea.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2287 - Josh Dubin & J.D. Tomlinson
but it just seems like pushing not a boulder uphill like a mountain and moving it do you think that's bigger than bobby kennedy running the hhs yeah i do i'll tell you why because you would be it there are so many constitutional issues with the grand jury system and so forth but here's something that is not that difficult prosecutors have immunity there are no consequences
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2287 - Josh Dubin & J.D. Tomlinson
So all of these cases where you hear people have been wrongfully convicted, prosecutors don't turn over evidence that would point to their innocence. That's what J.D. was referring to when he said exculpatory. That just means that would tend to prove innocence rather than guilt. That's constitutionally required that prosecutors turn that over. But these prosecutors don't have any accountability.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2287 - Josh Dubin & J.D. Tomlinson
And you're going to see in a few minutes when we're going to get to it what happened in After J.D. made his decision, what happened between when we filed it and today is if you don't have warm blood pumping through your veins, if this doesn't get you in some way. But, yeah, I think—
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2287 - Josh Dubin & J.D. Tomlinson
Right. Yeah. Yeah. It's a great quote. But when will when will this is the lesser of all the evils finally start catching up with us? And it's so, you know, it's so politically driven. If people were more aware of how politically driven some of these prosecutions are and then you you put your finger on the nerve root of of.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2287 - Josh Dubin & J.D. Tomlinson
What the problem is from the standpoint of human psychology it's been happening since the beginning of time and will continue to happen until people suffer ego death and Suffering an ego death requires you to look yourself in the mirror in a in an honest way and to be able to say four magic words I Made a mistake That's it and what stands in the way in my mind
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2287 - Josh Dubin & J.D. Tomlinson
of prosecutors just so often not moving from their position is because they can't say, I made a mistake or the office where I work made a mistake. You're going to find that one of the judges that denied relief in this case of the Ohio four Was a prosecutor in this office is friends with the current prosecutor.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2287 - Josh Dubin & J.D. Tomlinson
One of the other judges that denied relief is the same judge that denied Al Cleveland post conviction relief. When the Sixth Circuit Court of Appeals, the federal government says these guys, Al Cleveland is likely innocent. And they just shove it aside. What gets in the way? What gets in the way is you touched on it. I want to win. This is I'm not going to go against the former office.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2287 - Josh Dubin & J.D. Tomlinson
And what he is telling them happened does not match the physical evidence. state of this apartment where he claims this beating happened. So this is like one of the telltale ways to tell if someone is falsely confessing to you or falsely implicating others. He tells them that there's this horrific beating of this victim that occurs in an apartment. And they go to the apartment.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2287 - Josh Dubin & J.D. Tomlinson
Whatever swirl of emotions, you know, whatever it is that just has people. You know, when you get to that point in an argument, this happens. I always give the same example because she's always right. You know, you get to a point in an argument where you're taking a real strong position and the other person, in this case, it's my wife, is always, you know, taking the opposite position.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2287 - Josh Dubin & J.D. Tomlinson
And then you realize in the argument that you're wrong. And it's oftentimes it's like you gave me I gave you my keys to put in your purse. Where are they? No, you didn't give me your keys. You took them back since then. I'm like, no, no, no. I remember where I gave them to you. And and then you remember in the middle of the argument. Oh, yeah, that's right. She did give them back to me.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2287 - Josh Dubin & J.D. Tomlinson
And what happens is at that moment, you have a choice to make. You could stop, which I've learned to do and say, you know what? I fucked up. You're right.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2287 - Josh Dubin & J.D. Tomlinson
In my experience, especially in a case like this, it's just like the, and that's not to pat myself on the back, there's plenty of times I dig in and I know I might be wrong, but it's just the inability to say something bad might've happened here.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2287 - Josh Dubin & J.D. Tomlinson
I mean, chairs turned over, tables turned over, a bloody knockdown, drag out fight for her life. And they go to the apartment and take pictures. And it's in the most pristine condition you can imagine. Not a chair turned over, not a table. And they immediately had reason to know that this guy was bullshitting. Because he then comes and says to them, you know, I have other details.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2287 - Josh Dubin & J.D. Tomlinson
No, it's funny. A lot of cases where I ask, where I represent a client in a civil rights case for wrongful conviction, I sometimes give the law enforcement official during a deposition in a civil case, I say, you know, I did it recently for Clemente Aguirre, who was exonerated from Florida's death row.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2287 - Josh Dubin & J.D. Tomlinson
I gave the crime scene technician, the fingerprint analyst, all of who played a part in his wrongful conviction, I said, Mr. Aguirre's here. Would you like to apologize to him? No, sir, I will not. Yeah, they won't do it. So he exonerates Nancy Smith and- Joseph Allen. Joseph Allen. And all of these folks that prosecuted Nancy Smith and Joseph Allen, law enforcement, law
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2287 - Josh Dubin & J.D. Tomlinson
the prosecutors, they all turn on him. I had no idea about anything.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2287 - Josh Dubin & J.D. Tomlinson
So just so we're clear, this prosecutor... Rosenbaum prosecuted Nancy Smith and Joseph Allen, and I believe he prosecuted all four of the Ohio Four.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2287 - Josh Dubin & J.D. Tomlinson
So after I presented to J.D., he had a cart. This is like a popular thing with prosecutors. They wheel in a cart of evidence. You know, it's like a shopping cart, it looks like, without the... Full of files. Yeah, and it's full of files. And he had read a lot of it in years prior, and he said he wanted to re-familiarize himself with more. So...
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2287 - Josh Dubin & J.D. Tomlinson
I think we both canceled our Thanksgiving plans and got into a lot of, I was annoyed because when I left Ohio, it was so obvious to me that these men were innocent and that there was a terrible mistake made and a federal court never goes out of their way to say something like this. I have the opinion here. And I showed this to JD and his chief of staff. And it says this is the way it concludes.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2287 - Josh Dubin & J.D. Tomlinson
And the more details he gives them, the less it's matching up with the evidence that they have. So they're trying these four men separately. When the first trial happens, William Avery Jr. has an idea. And his idea is, I'm going to extort these people for money. He shows up at the trial and he tells the prosecutors, I want $10,000. And the prosecutors say to him, what are you talking about?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2287 - Josh Dubin & J.D. Tomlinson
It goes through the things that the juries in the case heard that were bad about Avery, that he was a liar, he was a liar. But it didn't have – all these prosecutors that are trying to protect convictions and the man that's the county prosecutor now in his motion to withdraw J.D. 's decision to grant these men a new trial and then dismiss the case. We're going to get to this in a minute.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2287 - Josh Dubin & J.D. Tomlinson
This is what ended up happening. He says, well, these cases have gone through the courts for 30 years. That could be said about every single human that has ever been exonerated in this country. It's the weakest argument. It's the weakest argument. What's the evidence that they did it? And here's one court that says, had the jury also been able to consider Avery's unsolicited 2004 recantation?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2287 - Josh Dubin & J.D. Tomlinson
That's when he went into the FBI. Mm-hmm. The 2006 recanting affidavit, that's the one that Al Cleveland had in his post-conviction filings, evidence that Cleveland was in New York a couple of hours before Blakely's murder and could not have flown from New York to Ohio in time to commit the murder, along with the fact that there was no other evidence tying Cleveland to the crime, quote,
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2287 - Josh Dubin & J.D. Tomlinson
Now they're quoting a case in this opinion. It surely cannot be said that a juror conscientiously following the judge's instructions requiring proof beyond a reasonable doubt would vote to convict. We find that Cleveland has presented a credible claim of actual innocence. It's amazing. That is such a rare thing for a federal court to say those things.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2287 - Josh Dubin & J.D. Tomlinson
That's the federal court telling the lower courts in Lorain County, you have to give Al Cleveland a hearing. It's at that hearing where the judge advises Avery Jr., you know, you're basically going to get charged with perjury. So I make the presentation to J.D., and he spends roughly the next five days.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2287 - Josh Dubin & J.D. Tomlinson
You know, at some point we were joking to each other, and there was a lot of arguing because he wanted to go out to the apartment where the alleged beating took place, and he did, and he was reading – lines of transcript from four different trials. And he'd say, well, what about this? What about that? And I just said, you know what? I'm going to cancel my Thanksgiving. He canceled his.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2287 - Josh Dubin & J.D. Tomlinson
And I was just there to answer any question he had. And there weren't really many questions of substance. And I started to realize the second or third day that he's looking for something to say they're guilty. He's looking for some evidence, and around every corner he looked, he would say things to me like, what is going on here? Why in the world would this happen?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2287 - Josh Dubin & J.D. Tomlinson
I'd be curious as to what your thought process was before you finally told us.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2287 - Josh Dubin & J.D. Tomlinson
And, you know, what the federal court is saying is that, yeah, they could damage his credibility at trial, but they didn't know... obviously, because he does it later, that he made the whole thing up. And they didn't know that he's admitted he made the whole thing up. And importantly, who walks in unsolicited To the FBI and says, here's what I did.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2287 - Josh Dubin & J.D. Tomlinson
You have to testify. You got the reward money. And he says, I'm not testifying. They put him in jail for contempt. And he says, I made the whole thing up anyways. I did it for the reward money. I made it up. They should have known right then and there before any of these four men were tried that this was someone that led them down the wrong path. But instead of doing that, they keep him in jail.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2287 - Josh Dubin & J.D. Tomlinson
And I want to clear my conscience and I want to tell you what I did.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2287 - Josh Dubin & J.D. Tomlinson
Yeah. And it's a crime to lie. And I knew I started to feel like, oh, OK, we're about to get hometown, small town. Something bad is happening here because. This should have been a moment to – here we are, myself, my co-counsel.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2287 - Josh Dubin & J.D. Tomlinson
We're about to change the trajectory not of just these four men's lives but of their families that have lived under the crushing weight of these wrongful convictions for three decades. My client, John Edwards, and Al Cleveland and the other two as well, Lenworth and Benson – John is in, Al is out, but Al is suffering the most horrific psychological damage you can imagine.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2287 - Josh Dubin & J.D. Tomlinson
And John calls me from prison all the time. JD tells us that he is going to file a joint motion. joint meeting between defense counsel and the prosecutor to grant these men a new trial that's the procedural mechanism based on new evidence based on new evidence which is the 2004 recantation which they never had the benefit of of taking the trial that evidence was never seen
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2287 - Josh Dubin & J.D. Tomlinson
And then the 2006 affidavit and that once the new trial was granted, he would dismiss the case. So that all gets filed in front of one judge because it really should have been a matter of procedure in all my years of doing this.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2287 - Josh Dubin & J.D. Tomlinson
25 years, 24 years, have never seen a judge do anything other than have the hearing and respect what the prosecutor has filed for and asked for, especially when it's joined by the defense. So all of a sudden, the judge that this has filed before is silent. Now, the clock is ticking because now we have the whole month of December. And after January 6th, he's out of office.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2287 - Josh Dubin & J.D. Tomlinson
And right away, within a few days of us filing this joint motion, there's a newspaper article that comes out. What's your local paper again? The Chronicle Telegraph. Telegraph or Telegram? The Chronicle Telegram. And it has the person that just defeated him in the election. His name is Tony Sillow.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2287 - Josh Dubin & J.D. Tomlinson
It has comments from him and from this prosecutor Rosenberg saying that I don't understand what the rush is. I don't understand, you know, essentially saying, wait until I take office. I, Tony Sillow, take office and I want to review this. And I thought that that was really interesting because. He's someone that worked in that office. He's someone that actually.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2287 - Josh Dubin & J.D. Tomlinson
played a role in some of the investigation that I believe should have taken place when he was a prosecutor in that office. And he did not have the benefit of the thorough investigation that J.D. had done. And he's a private citizen until he takes office. So I found that to be interesting.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2287 - Josh Dubin & J.D. Tomlinson
And all of a sudden, a brief gets filed from the attorney general of Ohio saying, whoa, it's a brief that gets filed to the court where we filed this joint motion for a new trial. And the attorney general gets involved. You don't have to look far to see other attorney generals getting involved in criminal cases, right? That's happened on a national stage. Happened in New York.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2287 - Josh Dubin & J.D. Tomlinson
And he basically is taking the position that this man, this should all wait until Tony Silla takes office. And I thought, what? This is weird. Then I come to find out that Tony Silla used to work at the attorney general's office. So I started to have hope when the judge said,
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2287 - Josh Dubin & J.D. Tomlinson
One of the judges in the case, because I won't bore you with the details, but the cases get sent out to different judges that were assigned to each man's case. And what the judge says is the AG's motion. This is a quote. This is from an order from the Honorable Chris Cook. The AG, and this is dated December 23rd.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2287 - Josh Dubin & J.D. Tomlinson
The AG's motion is not to advocate for either party to this litigation, which in most situations is the sole purpose of filing an amicus brief, but instead to ask this court to delay ruling on the pending motions until such time as the newly elected Lorain County prosecutor is in office and the victims can be notified.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2287 - Josh Dubin & J.D. Tomlinson
I don't remember if it was for 30 days or 60 days. And they let him cool his heels a little bit. The judge in the trial calls a mistrial, and when there's a mistrial, you can try someone again. So about a month goes by, and William Avery Jr. 's story has now evolved. He now no longer claims that Al Cleveland confessed to him. He claims that he was a witness to it.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2287 - Josh Dubin & J.D. Tomlinson
Neither of these purported reasons to opine on this litigation are persuasive or necessary to aid the court. First, the AG argues that the current prosecutor will be leaving office shortly, referring to J.D. Within the next two weeks, in fact, and any ruling should be delayed in order to allow the incoming prosecutor to evaluate the matter and weigh in on the issues.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2287 - Josh Dubin & J.D. Tomlinson
But this reason is hardly compelling. After all, all elected officials eventually leave office and to suggest that simply because a newly elected prosecutor is taking over, a pending matter should be delayed for the incoming official to review is unwieldy, inconvenient, invites delay, and not how the system operates.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2287 - Josh Dubin & J.D. Tomlinson
Moreover, why should rulings or evaluation of this case be singled out and subject to delay in favor of the new administration, but not the other 150 pending criminal cases on this court's docket?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2287 - Josh Dubin & J.D. Tomlinson
At the end of the day, the concept that a court or any government entity, for that matter, should come to a grinding halt because a newly elected official will be taking over is not how government should or does work.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2287 - Josh Dubin & J.D. Tomlinson
Yeah. Put that thought on hold because three days later, three days later. Now, this is curious. What changes in three days? Well, I don't know if it happened during these three days, but this is the prosecutor. I mean, this is the judge that swears in the new prosecuting attorney. Three days later. There is another another order filed by the same judge. And.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2287 - Josh Dubin & J.D. Tomlinson
Because we had moved for an emergency hearing. Because in our mind, this incoming prosecutor opines on the case in the paper, had worked at that prosecutor's office and obviously had some feeling about the case. And if he had taken such an interest in talking to the press, we were concerned and filed an emergency motion not to let these men suffer any longer.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2287 - Josh Dubin & J.D. Tomlinson
So the same judge that you just said, shout out, which was exactly my sentiment, issues another order. You could not get a more stark 180 degree turn than this. I'm going to quote from that order.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2287 - Josh Dubin & J.D. Tomlinson
How can it be possibly an emergency that a hearing and potential ruling be accomplished in a matter of weeks for a case and cases that have been pending for almost three decades, not to mention four years on the current prosecutor's watch?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2287 - Josh Dubin & J.D. Tomlinson
Moreover, no rational person would conclude that a change in county prosecutor constitutes an emergency, an inconvenience to the movement, to the movements, arguably a delay in rulings, no doubt, but an emergency. I don't think so. In addition to the lack of emergency, two additional but troubling issues are apparent by this motion. This is three days later.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2287 - Josh Dubin & J.D. Tomlinson
First, the movements go to great pains to paint the incoming prosecutor as incapable of fairly and rationally evaluating the defendant's claims of innocence and requests for new trial. To pause there because this man had sat and listened to and dove through and tore through this entire trial record. So, yeah, we had concerns that we would face further delay. It already agreed. We filed.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2287 - Josh Dubin & J.D. Tomlinson
This is oftentimes right away. The court will call a hearing and grant the relief. So the judge goes on to say this effort is unfounded. Contra the movement's reliance on a newspaper article. That's the one I was talking about. The same article quotes prosecutor-elect Silla was saying he would review the matter anew, just like prosecutor Tomlinson did. And it goes on to say.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2287 - Josh Dubin & J.D. Tomlinson
Second, even more troubling is the movement's assertion that Tomlinson's successor has no authority to review agreements made by Tomlinson. I've never seen this in an opinion before. Oh, really? With a question mark. The movement's right that Mr. Tomlinson's successor has an obligation to honor the good faith decisions made by the prior administration, J.D.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2287 - Josh Dubin & J.D. Tomlinson
And what happens in that intervening month, I think people can draw their own obvious conclusions about what happens. But suffice to say, it's my opinion and my belief that they did a number on this guy. So he goes on to testify at all four of their trials individually. During which time the lead prosecutor gets a correspondence from the U.S.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2287 - Josh Dubin & J.D. Tomlinson
And it then goes on to use the Head Start case, the Nancy Smith case and Joe Allen, where he granted these people, he exonerated these people. He then goes on to throw it in their face, in my opinion. He says, recall the Head Start case. And he goes through personalizing this and saying that because J.D.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2287 - Josh Dubin & J.D. Tomlinson
Tomlinson exonerated these people, thereby undoing a prior administration's prosecution, that why should the same not apply to you? So in other words, three days before he says, why should justice wait? Three days later, He says. What? Wait a second. This should wait and it should wait. And by the way. Here's one to poke this man in the eye because he exonerated people.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2287 - Josh Dubin & J.D. Tomlinson
You're undermining the decision of a prior administration. So he's using his granting of innocence, in my opinion, to now go back on what he said three days earlier, which is why should this wait? What happened in these three days? I don't know. But I can tell you that you've taken position A and then you've taken position Z. So what happens is.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2287 - Josh Dubin & J.D. Tomlinson
On these judges, one of the judges, the one that denied Al Cleveland post-conviction relief that, you know, said to Avery Jr., you know, there are potential consequences here. He denies the joint motion for a new trial for Al Cleveland based on nothing. He doesn't call a hearing. This is in December. He says, I'm not I'm denying it. He then, this man, Sillo, takes office.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2287 - Josh Dubin & J.D. Tomlinson
All the other judges deny it, by the way, or delay it. The other judges punt until the new prosecutor comes to office. And you don't think this is personal? This man's second day in office, Tony Sillo takes office. His first order of business is to withdraw the joint motion on behalf of the state. So he undoes everything that we did.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2287 - Josh Dubin & J.D. Tomlinson
Because he worked at that office, because he's friends with these guys, I don't know. But I'd like to know. And to make these men suffer. is truly at this point, it's really, really difficult to understand. The craziest part about these is that this Judge Cook in that first opinion, he said the AG cites as one of the reasons why this should be delayed is that the victims have to be notified.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2287 - Josh Dubin & J.D. Tomlinson
He notified the victims and the judge calls them on it here. So this is like... It's fascinating.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2287 - Josh Dubin & J.D. Tomlinson
Well, I refuse to think it won't get done. I hope it does. It's interesting to me that I had spoken to Mr. Silla when he took office. And his first my conversation with him wasn't about all the reasons they're innocent. He said, you know, there's this phone call between Al Cleveland and his dad where they're talking about giving Avery money. And I said, what are you talking about?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2287 - Josh Dubin & J.D. Tomlinson
And I went and read the transcript. It's about them giving him money in 2006 for his expenses to put him in a hotel room so he could feel safe with a court reporter and to do the affidavit. And I felt like saying, you know, so let me get this straight. You your office. pays this man reward money. He then tries to extort your office for more money in exchange for testimony.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2287 - Josh Dubin & J.D. Tomlinson
Secret Service saying that we know you use this man, William Avery Jr., as an informant. We have been using him as a paid informant in some food stamp sting, and we just caught him.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2287 - Josh Dubin & J.D. Tomlinson
He has gone into the FBI before this affidavit was ever a thing.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2287 - Josh Dubin & J.D. Tomlinson
He went into the FBI and admitted he made the whole thing up and you want to talk about a conversation between Al Cleveland and his father when they're talking about whether or not they could reimburse him for expenses if they have to fly him to Florida or get him to a place where he feels safe because he felt like if he told the truth again,
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2287 - Josh Dubin & J.D. Tomlinson
that there would be consequences for him because he was going against his father. He'd be labeled a snitch in the community. And I then emailed him and asked him for a meeting. And I didn't hear back. I heard back finally last week for the first time that we have a meeting with him on March 18th. And I found that curious timing. And I said to J.D.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2287 - Josh Dubin & J.D. Tomlinson
this morning, did you tell anyone you were coming on the show? And he looked at me and it's a small town. A word travels fast. So I have my suspicions. But I would make Tony Sillow the following offer. Two things. If you have any evidence that these men actually did this, any whatsoever. With your blessing, Joe, I'd offer him a seat right next to me to show the world what the evidence is.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2287 - Josh Dubin & J.D. Tomlinson
You tell me what the evidence is. Open invitation. Come on on. And how about this? Rather than do this behind closed doors on the 18th, how about let's open it to the public? I just argued for a sentence commutation before Governor DeSantis last week. It was a public hearing. I had been told, just as I heard from J.D., it just gives me fuel. I don't think it'll happen.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2287 - Josh Dubin & J.D. Tomlinson
I was told that he has never publicly listened to a sentence commutation ever. And you know what? It happened. And he listened and he's considering the case. And I feel like if we talk with each other and not at each other, we can get to the right place. And I'm not this. I want to be really clear. I have deep respect for what prosecutors do.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2287 - Josh Dubin & J.D. Tomlinson
in a lie and he's compromising our investigations because he is accepting reward money and making things up and we're ceasing to use him as an informant and we are investigating him for crimes and giving us false information and accepting reward money for it. So the prosecutor you would think at that point would say, all right, it's over. Obviously it's over.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2287 - Josh Dubin & J.D. Tomlinson
I have deep respect for Tony Sillo's commitment to public service. I don't know the man. I don't know him personally. I don't know anything about him. But I do find I find it. really difficult to understand why he took such an interest in this case, such that he blocked
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2287 - Josh Dubin & J.D. Tomlinson
justice from happening and withdrew the state's position, how about hear us out and meet with us before you withdraw the joint motion to dismiss? How about that? How about you hear the evidence before making it the first official act or among the first official acts? It was just... So I'm not optimistic going in, but I can tell you this.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2287 - Josh Dubin & J.D. Tomlinson
I have found something as recent as yesterday where alternative suspects were brought to the attention of the Lorain County prosecutor. And wouldn't you know that the person assigned to investigate these alternative suspects and to liaise with the police department was one Tony Sillo? I saw that document for the first time yesterday. So what do you think that could mean?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2287 - Josh Dubin & J.D. Tomlinson
I don't know what it means. I'd like I have a lot of questions. Do you what did you do to investigate these men? One of their one of their ex wives says that he was cleaning bloody clothes the night of the Marshall Blakely murder and he knew her. I don't know what it means, but I'd like to know. I have questions. You know, what is it?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2287 - Josh Dubin & J.D. Tomlinson
Truth crushed to earth, truth crushed to earth shall rise again. It always, the truth comes out at some point. And I am, I am, uh, singularly focused on finding out as much truth as I can about this case. And I just won't let up until I find it. Something's wrong, and I want to figure out what it is. But these men are suffering. They should have been out in December.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2287 - Josh Dubin & J.D. Tomlinson
And to continuously, needlessly delay the process, hard to imagine.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2287 - Josh Dubin & J.D. Tomlinson
You know, and where do I... Scary. Yeah, and all I want to do is, what I want to do is do what I did with JD, is to say, you know, how many times in your life do you have a chance to say, you know, something was really wrong and I helped make it right? And Tony Sillow has that chance.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2287 - Josh Dubin & J.D. Tomlinson
I mean, how many moments are there when you have the ability to impact other human beings in a way to set them literally free and to end the most unfathomable of nightmares? And he has that chance. I'm trying to appeal to, you know, I don't want there to be some nefarious conclusion drawn from maybe he did investigate alternative Sussex. Maybe there is an explanation for it.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2287 - Josh Dubin & J.D. Tomlinson
One thing I know for sure is that no one has been able to show me any physical evidence, any eyewitness account. And actually, we have been able to prove their innocence. What constellation of fate would come together so that you could show to a factual certainty that Al Cleveland was not in Ohio on the night these killings took place?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2287 - Josh Dubin & J.D. Tomlinson
So these guys all get sentenced and convicted to, I believe it was 25 years to life. That's right. And I became involved in the case about two years ago, a year and a half ago, and dissected the record, and I was blown away by what I had seen, and I've seen it all. I found out that William Avery Jr., Walked into the FBI in 2004, and the FBI documents it, and he says, look, I was a drug addict.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2287 - Josh Dubin & J.D. Tomlinson
He meets with his probation officer and he's seen by multiple people. And, you know. What more do you need? That's standing alone. And then you factor in Avery saying, I made it all up. And you factor in the fact that the story he tells is belied by the physical evidence. It is so easy to put people behind those bars. And it takes almost a miracle to fight their way out.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2287 - Josh Dubin & J.D. Tomlinson
So am I hoping for a miracle here? I hope not. I hope that these individuals that are presiding over this put whatever it is aside that is causing them to hang on and say, you know what, we just got this one wrong. We can't stand by this.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2287 - Josh Dubin & J.D. Tomlinson
And for the retort to be, well, four juries saw it another way and court saw it another way, that's not true. These juries did not see that this man said, I made it all up. And, you know, it always leads to this place, like, what do we do? You know, I... If you're a citizen of Lorain County... You want to feel that this couldn't happen to you, regardless of what your background is.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2287 - Josh Dubin & J.D. Tomlinson
I would think that the citizens of Lorain County would at some point demand action here. These men are not expendable. Whether you disagree with, look, I'll be the first one to say it on behalf of my client, on behalf of Al Cleveland and the others. They're not proud of the fact that they were dealing drugs back then. They're not proud of the life they were living.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2287 - Josh Dubin & J.D. Tomlinson
That's not a reason to pin a murder on them.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2287 - Josh Dubin & J.D. Tomlinson
And I do. I've been called a lot of things. One of them that I take exception to is being called a race baiter. I find that really problematic. Who calls you that? You know, trolls on the internet that don't matter. Stop reading comments. I know.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2287 - Josh Dubin & J.D. Tomlinson
But one of the things that people should read, if you want a better understanding of what it's like to grow up a minority in this country or black in America, again, four black men in a very white community that were from out of town and drug dealers. So read Cast by Isabel Wilkerson.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2287 - Josh Dubin & J.D. Tomlinson
My father had threatened me. He was a drug addict, and he made me go in there and tell a lie about these men and falsely implicate them in a murder that they didn't commit. I'm now off drugs, and I want to clear my conscience. So the FBI documents it and sends the report to the Lorain County prosecutors.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2287 - Josh Dubin & J.D. Tomlinson
And, you know, before you go judging what is going on in terms of, you know, your perception that people should pull themselves up by their bootstraps, you try being born into a cast system. C.A.S.T. C.A.S.T. And we are a country and I'm not on my soapbox. This is a fact. And if you can dispute anything in Isabel Wilkerson's book, this is a caste system that exists in America since its inception.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2287 - Josh Dubin & J.D. Tomlinson
And the experience of a black American in this country is different. than that of a white American. So I think that these wrongful convictions happen disproportionately to people of color for a reason. And we have to start changing minds and we have to start getting people to come back to. I don't know what's more innate.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2287 - Josh Dubin & J.D. Tomlinson
Is it innate to be to find the humanity within ourselves or is it more innate to tear each other down? We all have that decision to make. I don't know what it is about human beings where there's some sort of, ostensibly it's like some satisfaction in the tearing down of another. I know where that comes from. It comes from a weakness within you. It comes from a hole that you're trying to fill.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2287 - Josh Dubin & J.D. Tomlinson
What we should want is, you know, uplifting these people that have been born into circumstances that are just different. I come from a middle, middle class family, you know, sometimes trending toward the lower end. My dad had the knock around guy from Brooklyn. My mom was a school teacher.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2287 - Josh Dubin & J.D. Tomlinson
And I think that going through some of those struggles set me up for success and to learn how to scrape a little bit. But I didn't have the experience of someone that was born in Watts or Bedford Stuyvesant or Harlem. I just didn't. And, you know, I'm a little less quick to judge that, you know, if more people had your sentiment, Joe, right, that sometimes it's a little bit deeper than you think.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2287 - Josh Dubin & J.D. Tomlinson
As to why someone resorts to committing a crime? It's almost always deeper than you think.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2287 - Josh Dubin & J.D. Tomlinson
You would love this book. I mean, the cast by Isabel Wilkerson, I feel like a paid spokesperson for it. But she talks about how, you know, there's very real consequences from the practical implications of what Jim Crow laws did to fragmenting our society. And it's not as if this went on a thousand years ago.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2287 - Josh Dubin & J.D. Tomlinson
In 2006, Al Cleveland has an investigator searching for this man, William Avery Jr., for years. They couldn't find him. They finally find him. And they get an affidavit explaining, William Avery Jr. explains how he made the whole thing up. He recounts what he told the FBI. And post-conviction proceedings get scheduled.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2287 - Josh Dubin & J.D. Tomlinson
I remember where I was when that verdict was read. I was shucking oysters at Barnacle Bills on North Monroe when I was a student at Florida State. Wow. And I remember feeling like something really awful had just happened, but I understood it.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2287 - Josh Dubin & J.D. Tomlinson
Because of Rodney King, and I understood it not just because of Rodney King, because of what had happened to the community in Los Angeles that for decades had been abused by police. Now, whether or not one wrong begets another and whether that's rough justice, you know, I don't even feel like I'm in a position to say. I don't think that there's ever been a more guilty person put on trial than O.J.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2287 - Josh Dubin & J.D. Tomlinson
I mean, you have the victim's blood in your car, in your house. It's extraordinary.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2287 - Josh Dubin & J.D. Tomlinson
You know, on various social and criminal justice reform issues. And always in the back of my mind, I'd be like, you fucking defended O.J. Simpson. What are you talking about? That's number one. And the second part of it is.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2287 - Josh Dubin & J.D. Tomlinson
The human cost behind that tragedy also, I have these seared images into my brain of that Goldman family, the sister and the father, where they were very outward with their torment. And I recently watched the, I'm a sucker for it, I guess I'm admitting it, for the true crime genre, but I watched the latest documentary called There's a new one on Netflix. There's always a new one. On OJ? On OJ.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2287 - Josh Dubin & J.D. Tomlinson
So the Ohio Four are four gentlemen that were wrongfully convicted of a murder they didn't commit. And the last time I came on, we talked extensively about the case. You could read about it at freetheohiofour.com. We have on that site my submission that I made to J.D. when he was the prosecuting attorney and all the exhibits supporting it. But what happened is this woman is murdered. in the 90s.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2287 - Josh Dubin & J.D. Tomlinson
And it's very well done. It is. And it's like 30 years later. And I know that there have been a few. This one is excellent. And, you know, Kim Goldman is still... This ruined her life. And, you know, on the flip side, you have these... You know, when there's a wrongful conviction... That was, in my mind, a tragedy going the other way. But when there's a wrongful conviction...
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2287 - Josh Dubin & J.D. Tomlinson
And post-conviction proceedings is we're going to have a hearing as to whether Al Cleveland is innocent. So the hearing is before a judge named Judge Rothgary in Lorain County. And what happens in essence is that William Avery Jr. shows up to testify. And the judge tells him, before you testify, you should know your rights in words or substance. And he tells him that if you testify here.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2287 - Josh Dubin & J.D. Tomlinson
It's not just the people that are in there doing all the suffering. It's their families. It's their kids. It has a ripple effect where there is a community of people fighting for them. And I just wish I had some sort of magical power to pull these prosecutors into what that emotional tumult is like. I was grateful that I had... You know, J.D. was able to let his guard down.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2287 - Josh Dubin & J.D. Tomlinson
And I don't know but for his experience being wrongfully accused of something and, you know, that he would have have had the openness to hearing it. And, you know, the way that he was charged with a crime without a grand jury.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2287 - Josh Dubin & J.D. Tomlinson
And I don't think that there's a person among us that if in your worst moments, if someone was recording you and you're saying things you wish you didn't say to a significant other, That's what he did. That's the crime. I mean, hey, I'll tell on myself.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2287 - Josh Dubin & J.D. Tomlinson
There are things that I've done that if someone was recording it or things that I've said that I wish I didn't do or say that, you know, but for the grace of God, I fucked it up. But, you know, I mean, I... Anyone in their private moments, you know, and then to just use that to weaponize and undermine, you know, to me, is he a perfect man? No, he's not a perfect man. Perfect man doesn't exist.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2287 - Josh Dubin & J.D. Tomlinson
Am I saying it because he ended up agreeing with me? No. He's a human that errs, just like all of us. And I think we need more prosecutors, more judges like this man that have been on both sides of it. And are willing to set their egos aside, willing to willing to suffer whatever consequences come from it.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2287 - Josh Dubin & J.D. Tomlinson
You know, he told me at one point he when he was nervous about doing this, these people ruined my life because I exonerated. He said, they've been after me ever since. And the fact that that sort of one-upsmanship and that competitiveness that you referred to earlier, it's just sad to me that we can't get over ourselves enough.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2287 - Josh Dubin & J.D. Tomlinson
that these men actually didn't do it, there are potential consequences for making it up. And if you're lying now and saying they didn't do it just to help them out, there's consequences for that. So he's quickly told that he's gonna be facing potential perjury charges. So he decides not to testify at that post-conviction hearing. He walks out of the courthouse
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2287 - Josh Dubin & J.D. Tomlinson
Well, I also think that if there's more lurking beneath, it's going to get found out at some point. You know, we've filed a public records request with the AG's office so that we could see what communications occurred between, if any, between the incoming prosecutor, Sillo, and Yost, who's the AG of Ohio. We're entitled to that.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2287 - Josh Dubin & J.D. Tomlinson
And, you know, at the time this decision came out, the first decision from Judge Cook, the we filed a public records request with him and he sent it to us. And it turned out that I don't know if it was before or after this decision, but this guy Rosenbaum was the one I believe that made the request or that sent an email to Judge Cook saying you were at the Lorain County prosecutor's office.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2287 - Josh Dubin & J.D. Tomlinson
in the past maybe you shouldn't be sitting in judgment of this so there are communications that that must exist i would think between the ag and the prosecutor but yeah all this will come to light and we have we're not going anywhere we're going to keep on pushing until and the easy thing to do is just all we're asking is look at the objective facts that's why i want to do it i think what what would help
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2287 - Josh Dubin & J.D. Tomlinson
you know, in terms of reform, is what's the downside of hearing this out publicly? Let me make my presentation to you and make it a public hearing. What's the downside of the community knowing what evidence exists against these four men or the lack of evidence?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2287 - Josh Dubin & J.D. Tomlinson
And I just hope we end up connecting with them on some sort of human level so that they can put whatever it is aside that is causing them to have this pushback. And, you know, the these I used to be way harder on myself about making a change happen. And, you know, this because I've you've watched my evolution in that regard.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2287 - Josh Dubin & J.D. Tomlinson
And I just realized we just got to keep, you know, building the sandcastle one grain at a time. And when you again said it before, I'll say it again. When you walk hand in hand with another individual and helping restore their freedom. I don't care. There's nothing like it. Yeah, there's no drug. There's no material.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2287 - Josh Dubin & J.D. Tomlinson
There's just nothing that can match that feeling of playing a role in that and helping them just live out their days breathing free air.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2287 - Josh Dubin & J.D. Tomlinson
And reporters for the local paper ask him, why didn't you testify what happened? And he says, look, I made the whole thing up. These guys didn't do it, but I'm not going to jail for 25 years.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2287 - Josh Dubin & J.D. Tomlinson
It happens in every state. I was on the way here. I just took this card out of my wallet. I was on the way up here and I was sitting next to a guy that I asked to borrow his phone cord to charge my phone. And we started talking. And it turns out he's in the Florida House of Representatives. His name is John Snyder.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2287 - Josh Dubin & J.D. Tomlinson
Marine Corps veteran, wasn't a lawyer, which made him in many ways a heck of a lot more down to earth. And he told me he got into politics because he was like tired of complaining and wanted to actually do something different. And we got to talking, where are you going? I told him where I was going. He happened to have you, he happened to be listening to you and Elon from the other day.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2287 - Josh Dubin & J.D. Tomlinson
And I said, I'm actually going there. And he said, you know, I'm a Republican. Growing up in this party, it was all tough on crime. And now I sit through the claims bill process. A claims bill in Florida is when you have been wrongfully incarcerated and you're asking the legislator to compensate you.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2287 - Josh Dubin & J.D. Tomlinson
And he said it changed my entire perspective on you can be for a position or against a position, but you don't understand the subtleties and the vagaries until you're in it. And to have somebody – and then he took out his card and gave it to me and he said, if there's any way I can help, there's some bills pending.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2287 - Josh Dubin & J.D. Tomlinson
And that kind of openness and that kind of – he struck me as a guy that was super comfortable with himself and secure with himself to be able to have that approach. And if we could all have that approach, I'm not right about – I've fucked up plenty. I'm not right about every position I take. I'm just trying to find –
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2287 - Josh Dubin & J.D. Tomlinson
You know, some common ground, the humanity in all of us should always bend toward the truth, right? And that's what we mean when we say we want justice for these men. That's what we want.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2287 - Josh Dubin & J.D. Tomlinson
Well, Al and his wife Roberta are remarkable. Still married. Still married. Married the whole time, Joe. Crazy, man. And, you know, John Edwards is still suffering. He's in prison. Benson Davis and Lenworth Edwards, you know, my message to the four of you is I won't stop fighting.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2287 - Josh Dubin & J.D. Tomlinson
Unfortunately for my mental health, but fortunately for your prospects, I'm going to keep digging until I get you guys free. And thank you again. I always want to make sure I show my gratitude to continuing to give this forum. It makes a huge difference. I mean, if if anybody not saying it makes a huge difference is a terrible understatement.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2287 - Josh Dubin & J.D. Tomlinson
In my wildest dreams, if someone would have said to me, the prosecutor that agreed to set these men free would be sitting next to you on the show, I would have I would have bet the house against it. And I think that this is just a remarkable forum to be able to tell these stories and to get into the level of detail where we can touch people.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2287 - Josh Dubin & J.D. Tomlinson
And there's too many people in criminal justice reform that don't extend their hand to prosecutors and people in law enforcement. And I have... It's been an eye-opening and incredibly rewarding experience to get to know these folks that feel just as passionate about issues that are on the other side. And that's what, you know, has led me more to the middle.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2287 - Josh Dubin & J.D. Tomlinson
And, you know, I thank you for your humanity, J.D. And I hope you do run for something again because we need more people like you in those seats.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2287 - Josh Dubin & J.D. Tomlinson
Recap. I was at that hearing. So this is crazy. I found out from Al Cleveland, Al Cleveland spent so much time in prison that he timed out and was paroled. I think he spent close to 30 years in prison. And he approached J.D. and he approached J.D. with his wife.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2287 - Josh Dubin & J.D. Tomlinson
I think the big problem that people have these days is you see something and you see it often and you see it replayed. And it's just like you said, it becomes a slideshow in your mind. And it's hard to know how frequent the occurrence is. I had an interesting thing happen to me recently. where my son Carter made the travel baseball team.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2287 - Josh Dubin & J.D. Tomlinson
And it turned out that J.D., as a young lawyer, was sitting at that hearing watching it and knew as a young lawyer that there was something terribly wrong. But back to just to get... listeners and viewers up to speed on where we're at. So I came on the show in November, about a week before Thanksgiving. And I laid the case out in finer detail than I just did.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2287 - Josh Dubin & J.D. Tomlinson
And I'm like, he's like the new kid on the team because we moved from New York. And we went to our first tournament and we're on the new dad hanging out because it's out of town. And I sit down at a table with these other three dads and they're introducing themselves. And we just struck up a conversation and we were talking about bias. And I said, you know, I would probably be the wrong.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2287 - Josh Dubin & J.D. Tomlinson
We're talking about, you know, juries and jury service. And he I said, you know, I'd be like the wrong. Oh, someone asked me. One of the dads asked me, how do I get out of jury service? I said, tell the truth. Because we're all biased. We all have a bias against something. Like for me, I've done a bunch of cases where corrections officers did something bad to someone.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2287 - Josh Dubin & J.D. Tomlinson
So I'd probably be bad for a case like that. Because the reality is that most of them do their job and want to go home and it's dangerous. But I was recognizing my own bias. And I look around the table and they're all looking at each other smiling. And I knew it in that moment. that one of them was a corrections officer. It was my buddy Ryan Gillis.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2287 - Josh Dubin & J.D. Tomlinson
And it was like, oh, how do I wipe this shit off my foot? So I've gotten to know Ryan, and he's a corrections officer in Florida. And he's just a great guy.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2287 - Josh Dubin & J.D. Tomlinson
He's quiet and soft-spoken, and my daughter was going to the county fair, and there's rough nights, some nights where kids try to start fights, and I was talking to him about it, and he goes, I do security detail there, and I'm not there that night, but I'm going to tell the guys if she has an issue, have her call, and he's a great dude. There's great people in all walks of life.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2287 - Josh Dubin & J.D. Tomlinson
And I look at him, And sometimes I'll be thinking, man, I wonder what his day was like. Because he has, you know, a really tough, dangerous job. And I have such deep respect for him. And it was like one of those moments where I was like, shit, that came out wrong. I articulated it wrong.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2287 - Josh Dubin & J.D. Tomlinson
And I think the problem that a lot of people have, and we're in a society where you're so quick to pick a side and to label something. And I'm just trying to do a lot less... Be quicker to listen and slower to speak when it comes to making some big judgment about a group of people because, you know, you got to take each of these situations individually. Well said.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2287 - Josh Dubin & J.D. Tomlinson
Thank you for having me. That was really great, man.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2287 - Josh Dubin & J.D. Tomlinson
I love you more, bro. Thank you for everything.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2287 - Josh Dubin & J.D. Tomlinson
And like I said, if you want more details, you could go to freetheohio4.com and my submission to JD and all the exhibits are there. But that's basically the story as I told it. Yeah. So I had been trying to get in touch with JD because he was running for reelection. He had listed his cell phone number on the internet. So I had a cell phone number and I was...
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2287 - Josh Dubin & J.D. Tomlinson
sending him text messages and emails and calling him, and I was getting ghosted. We had communicated for a little bit beforehand. Is that true? No, sir. No, sir. So I couldn't get in touch with him. And then as I'm trying to get in touch with him prior to my coming on the show and speaking to you about it in November, J.D. gets indicted. Oh, excuse me. No, he gets charged by complaint.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2287 - Josh Dubin & J.D. Tomlinson
No grand jury. They charge him with three felonies. And I take a look and I see that he's running against someone. And that person that he's running against is posting about the fact that he was charged with three felonies. And I'm like, all right, well, this seems like a political witch hunt. I don't know much about it, but it seems like a tactic.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2287 - Josh Dubin & J.D. Tomlinson
So I came on the show and I said, look, I know this guy's up against it. Hopefully he now knows what it's like to be accused of something he didn't do. And I said—
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2287 - Josh Dubin & J.D. Tomlinson
He's either under so much stress or isn't tech savvy enough to know that every time I text him and say, please, I just need five minutes of your time, I could see he's reading my text because he had his read receipts on and he didn't know it. Whoopsies. I learned, Joe. I learned. So I leave Austin, fly back to New York. I'm in New York. The episode aired, I think, at 12 p.m. or 1 p.m.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2287 - Josh Dubin & J.D. Tomlinson
Eastern time. And at about 5.30, I see on my phone J.D. Tomlinson. And I said, I was about to teach my law school class, these kids at the Cardozo Law School that take the Freedom Clinic at the Perlmutter Center for Legal Justice. They all know about the case. They know what just happened. I was like... Holy shit, this guy is trying to get in touch with me now. And I pick up the phone.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2287 - Josh Dubin & J.D. Tomlinson
And these four men become suspects actually before there's any evidence against them whatsoever. In two and a half decades of doing post-conviction work, I had never seen the police put in an affidavit where they're, excuse me, not an affidavit, a police report when they're investigating this murder That these four men are people we should look at.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2287 - Josh Dubin & J.D. Tomlinson
I said, hello? And he said, Josh, this is JD Tomlinson. He's like, hey, man. He said, I've been under a lot of stress. There's people calling and emailing and flooding our office. You got to make this stop. And I said, that's the Joe Rogan fact. There's no stopping what can't be stopped. So it had its intended effect. And JD and I got into a discussion right away.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2287 - Josh Dubin & J.D. Tomlinson
And I had to quickly figure out a way to connect with him and tell him, I feel your pain. I hear what you're going through. And he told me, listen, I'm fighting for my life over here. These people have upended my life. They're threatening my freedom. I've been charged with crimes I didn't commit.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2287 - Josh Dubin & J.D. Tomlinson
And I just quickly pivoted and I said, if you just give me a date, I want to come down and I want to just show you. You now know what this is like. Imagine going through this for 30 years. So... I have to say in all my years of doing this, considering the circumstances that he was in, for him to say, you know, he was wrestling with it on the call.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2287 - Josh Dubin & J.D. Tomlinson
And he said, you know, I'll never forget what he said to me. He said, you know, if I don't at least agree to meet with you, who am I? And I said, thank you. And he said, I just don't know if there's time, but I owe you at least a meeting. And given what he was going through and what he was up against, and he knew the case well.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2287 - Josh Dubin & J.D. Tomlinson
He had had the Ohio Innocence Project had presented to him years earlier, and he knew the case well. So I think he had a sense that there was something really wrong going on.