John Ruich

Yeah, Beijing really came out swinging today, once again, as it had promised. As you say, China announced that it was adding a 50% tariff on top of its other tariffs on U.S. imports, matching Trump's latest two escalations step for step. This takes the base tariff rate on U.S. imports into China up to 84%. Now, that's different than the base U.S. rate on Chinese imports to the U.S., which is 104%.

Yeah, Beijing really came out swinging today, once again, as it had promised. As you say, China announced that it was adding a 50% tariff on top of its other tariffs on U.S. imports, matching Trump's latest two escalations step for step. This takes the base tariff rate on U.S. imports into China up to 84%. Now, that's different than the base U.S. rate on Chinese imports to the U.S., which is 104%.

And that's because Trump imposed 20% tariffs earlier in the year and China responded differently. Since then, though, it's taken the gloves off. Here's Foreign Ministry spokesman Lin Jian speaking through an interpreter earlier today.

And that's because Trump imposed 20% tariffs earlier in the year and China responded differently. Since then, though, it's taken the gloves off. Here's Foreign Ministry spokesman Lin Jian speaking through an interpreter earlier today.

So in addition to the tariffs that were announced today, Beijing once again blacklisted a handful of U.S. companies, putting them on export control lists or unreliable entity lists.

So in addition to the tariffs that were announced today, Beijing once again blacklisted a handful of U.S. companies, putting them on export control lists or unreliable entity lists.

Well, China's casting this whole thing in kind of stark black and white terms. It's essentially right versus wrong. Beijing projects itself as a champion of free and fair trade now and of multilateralism. And it accuses the U.S. of engaging in selfish and irresponsible protectionism, even blackmail in this case.

Well, China's casting this whole thing in kind of stark black and white terms. It's essentially right versus wrong. Beijing projects itself as a champion of free and fair trade now and of multilateralism. And it accuses the U.S. of engaging in selfish and irresponsible protectionism, even blackmail in this case.

You know, President Trump said yesterday China wants to make a deal and he's waiting for them to call. Well, China's leadership has also flagged that it's willing to negotiate, but not under duress. The foreign ministry spokesman Lin Jian said the U.S. must adopt an attitude of equality, mutual benefit and respect.

You know, President Trump said yesterday China wants to make a deal and he's waiting for them to call. Well, China's leadership has also flagged that it's willing to negotiate, but not under duress. The foreign ministry spokesman Lin Jian said the U.S. must adopt an attitude of equality, mutual benefit and respect.

I mean, ultimately, I think the Chinese leadership believes that China can tough it out and that in the long run, this trade war is going to damage the U.S. more than China. It's worth noting, of course, that China isn't the only country taking the path of retaliation. The European Union is planning to put sanctions on a range of U.S. goods from steel to non-alcoholic beer.

I mean, ultimately, I think the Chinese leadership believes that China can tough it out and that in the long run, this trade war is going to damage the U.S. more than China. It's worth noting, of course, that China isn't the only country taking the path of retaliation. The European Union is planning to put sanctions on a range of U.S. goods from steel to non-alcoholic beer.

Yes, there absolutely will be pain from these tariffs and from the retaliation, you know. And that actually sorted the point, according to Guo Shan, who is a partner at the Beijing-based research firm Hutong Research. She says tariffs are basically so high now that meaningful negotiations are impossible until one side or the other cries uncle in caves.

Yes, there absolutely will be pain from these tariffs and from the retaliation, you know. And that actually sorted the point, according to Guo Shan, who is a partner at the Beijing-based research firm Hutong Research. She says tariffs are basically so high now that meaningful negotiations are impossible until one side or the other cries uncle in caves.

Escalate to de-escalate is what's happening. She says Beijing has been preparing for this since the first trade war back in 2018. And leadership's confident. You know, China's been doubling down on policies to strengthen its self-sufficiency. Policymakers feel like they have a lot of ammunition for economic stimulus if they should need it. The currency's been allowed to weaken.

Escalate to de-escalate is what's happening. She says Beijing has been preparing for this since the first trade war back in 2018. And leadership's confident. You know, China's been doubling down on policies to strengthen its self-sufficiency. Policymakers feel like they have a lot of ammunition for economic stimulus if they should need it. The currency's been allowed to weaken.

The government's been propping up share prices, et cetera, et cetera. So China's been expanding its trade also with diplomatic and diplomatic relations with other countries.

The government's been propping up share prices, et cetera, et cetera. So China's been expanding its trade also with diplomatic and diplomatic relations with other countries.

Well, Asian stocks fell sharply today. Some governments in the region are trying to position their economies to cushion the blow. India, for instance, cut benchmark interest rates today. Governments haven't said a whole lot. They're working quietly, trying to negotiate to get these tariffs lowered or dropped.

Well, Asian stocks fell sharply today. Some governments in the region are trying to position their economies to cushion the blow. India, for instance, cut benchmark interest rates today. Governments haven't said a whole lot. They're working quietly, trying to negotiate to get these tariffs lowered or dropped.

Hey, Steve.

Hey, Steve.

Well, no. Li Cheng's speech was wrapping up as Trump was getting started. So we haven't really seen a Chinese response to Trump's speech yet. The Chinese government responded, though, to the new tariffs by Trump. You know, he ratcheted tariffs on Chinese imports up to 20 percent yesterday.

Well, no. Li Cheng's speech was wrapping up as Trump was getting started. So we haven't really seen a Chinese response to Trump's speech yet. The Chinese government responded, though, to the new tariffs by Trump. You know, he ratcheted tariffs on Chinese imports up to 20 percent yesterday.

They retaliated with their own tariffs on American chicken, wheat, corn, soybeans and such, blacklisted about 15 U.S. companies. The Chinese premier did not mention the U.S. by name in his address. It's the kind of document that's drafted over the course of months, doesn't change with headlines. But he did talk about, quote, an increasingly complex and severe external environment.

They retaliated with their own tariffs on American chicken, wheat, corn, soybeans and such, blacklisted about 15 U.S. companies. The Chinese premier did not mention the U.S. by name in his address. It's the kind of document that's drafted over the course of months, doesn't change with headlines. But he did talk about, quote, an increasingly complex and severe external environment.

Now, those are words we've heard from Chinese leaders before. And analysts say they're basically code for this confrontational situation they have with the U.S. On that front, Li flagged some concerns that that environment external environment may actually have a greater impact on China going forward.

Now, those are words we've heard from Chinese leaders before. And analysts say they're basically code for this confrontational situation they have with the U.S. On that front, Li flagged some concerns that that environment external environment may actually have a greater impact on China going forward.

Rank-and-file delegates to the National People's Congress didn't seem too worried, though, about the tariffs.

Rank-and-file delegates to the National People's Congress didn't seem too worried, though, about the tariffs.

Yeah, well, we had a chance to talk to a handful of delegates on their way into the opening session today. One of them was Tian Xuan, who's a professor of finance, part of the Shanghai delegation.

Yeah, well, we had a chance to talk to a handful of delegates on their way into the opening session today. One of them was Tian Xuan, who's a professor of finance, part of the Shanghai delegation.

So he told me that China's basically in a better position to handle the tariffs now and to offset them than before. China has a huge domestic market, for instance. It's got comprehensive supply chains. He says the authorities are taking steps to stimulate domestic demand.

So he told me that China's basically in a better position to handle the tariffs now and to offset them than before. China has a huge domestic market, for instance. It's got comprehensive supply chains. He says the authorities are taking steps to stimulate domestic demand.

And he says the tariffs are also kind of a motivator for China to promote high tech and to expand relations with other countries. Economists, like you say, say the tariffs will probably start to hurt, especially if they keep going up. But these handpicked delegates to parliament were projecting confidence, as you might expect.

And he says the tariffs are also kind of a motivator for China to promote high tech and to expand relations with other countries. Economists, like you say, say the tariffs will probably start to hurt, especially if they keep going up. But these handpicked delegates to parliament were projecting confidence, as you might expect.

Well, the premier flagged the risks like that external environment, like sluggish domestic demand. But he also projected some confidence. He set a growth target of around 5 percent this year. It's about the same as last year.

Well, the premier flagged the risks like that external environment, like sluggish domestic demand. But he also projected some confidence. He set a growth target of around 5 percent this year. It's about the same as last year.

And to get there, announced some fresh fiscal stimulus, a willingness to pursue more accommodative monetary policy to, you know, increase funding for industries of the future like quantum technology, AI, these type of things.

And to get there, announced some fresh fiscal stimulus, a willingness to pursue more accommodative monetary policy to, you know, increase funding for industries of the future like quantum technology, AI, these type of things.

Well, one interesting thing we'll be looking out for is that the NPC may pass some legislation that would support and protect private businesses.

Well, one interesting thing we'll be looking out for is that the NPC may pass some legislation that would support and protect private businesses.

And that's pretty interesting because the leadership here seems to have renewed its interest in these companies as drivers of the economy and innovation, especially after the Chinese company DeepSeek released an advanced AI model in January that shocked the world. NPR's John Ruich with some insights from Beijing.

And that's pretty interesting because the leadership here seems to have renewed its interest in these companies as drivers of the economy and innovation, especially after the Chinese company DeepSeek released an advanced AI model in January that shocked the world. NPR's John Ruich with some insights from Beijing.

Yeah, DeepSeek is a spinoff from a Chinese hedge fund. It was established just two years ago in 2023. And it's based in the eastern city of Hangzhou, which is sort of a tech hub here in China.

Yeah, DeepSeek is a spinoff from a Chinese hedge fund. It was established just two years ago in 2023. And it's based in the eastern city of Hangzhou, which is sort of a tech hub here in China.

And in a nutshell, what they did was hire a bunch of top-notch engineers and develop new algorithms, basically more efficient ways of training and running artificial intelligence with less computational power.

And in a nutshell, what they did was hire a bunch of top-notch engineers and develop new algorithms, basically more efficient ways of training and running artificial intelligence with less computational power.

Well, the product is said to rival tools from competitors like OpenAI and Google in terms of what it can do, things like analyzing data and solving complex problems. It's impressed a lot of people. It rattled markets.

Well, the product is said to rival tools from competitors like OpenAI and Google in terms of what it can do, things like analyzing data and solving complex problems. It's impressed a lot of people. It rattled markets.

And what rattled the markets is the narrative, which comes with some caveats, that DeepSeek basically did it all cheaper, quicker, and with less powerful microprocessors than its big competitors.

And what rattled the markets is the narrative, which comes with some caveats, that DeepSeek basically did it all cheaper, quicker, and with less powerful microprocessors than its big competitors.

Sure, the first one is around cost. DeepSeek says that it spent under $6 million to make this thing. That's tiny relative to the hundreds of millions of dollars that others are investing, even billions. But analysts say that that low figure is easy to misinterpret because it doesn't include, for instance, the cost of developing various versions from which this latest version was distilled.

Sure, the first one is around cost. DeepSeek says that it spent under $6 million to make this thing. That's tiny relative to the hundreds of millions of dollars that others are investing, even billions. But analysts say that that low figure is easy to misinterpret because it doesn't include, for instance, the cost of developing various versions from which this latest version was distilled.

So we really don't know what the total development cost was, how inexpensive it was. The second caveat is It has to do with the hardware, has to do with the chips that are critical to developing AI.

So we really don't know what the total development cost was, how inexpensive it was. The second caveat is It has to do with the hardware, has to do with the chips that are critical to developing AI.

It's tricky. You know, the chips that really matter for AI are made by NVIDIA, which, by the way, took a massive tumble on the stock market after the deep-seek news. Back in 2022, NVIDIA were told they couldn't sell their best product to China. Of course, some of those chips were already there. Some may have leaked in.

It's tricky. You know, the chips that really matter for AI are made by NVIDIA, which, by the way, took a massive tumble on the stock market after the deep-seek news. Back in 2022, NVIDIA were told they couldn't sell their best product to China. Of course, some of those chips were already there. Some may have leaked in.

But they made a slightly downgraded version at the time that they could sell to China legally. That's what DeepSeek says it used to train its latest model. Wow. The Biden administration subsequently decided that those chips were actually too powerful. They banned those ones from being sold to China, too. That was in 2023. A year had passed. The horse was sort of out of the barn.

But they made a slightly downgraded version at the time that they could sell to China legally. That's what DeepSeek says it used to train its latest model. Wow. The Biden administration subsequently decided that those chips were actually too powerful. They banned those ones from being sold to China, too. That was in 2023. A year had passed. The horse was sort of out of the barn.

Here's Gregory Allen, the director of the Wadwani AI Center at the Center for Strategic and International Studies in Washington.

Here's Gregory Allen, the director of the Wadwani AI Center at the Center for Strategic and International Studies in Washington.

So Alan says that era will end. Chinese companies like DeepSeq will run out of those near cutting edge chips pretty soon or sooner or later. They can't buy new ones because of the export ban. China doesn't have the capability to make anything like them. So yes, they did something pathbreaking here. But China faces a potential worsening computation constraint on the horizon.

So Alan says that era will end. Chinese companies like DeepSeq will run out of those near cutting edge chips pretty soon or sooner or later. They can't buy new ones because of the export ban. China doesn't have the capability to make anything like them. So yes, they did something pathbreaking here. But China faces a potential worsening computation constraint on the horizon.

You bet.

You bet.

Well, the most common visa for working scientists is called the H-1B. It was created in 1990. The idea was to have a limited number of highly skilled foreign nationals working in the U.S. for up to six years. You have to have at least a bachelor's degree to qualify, but many of the scientists working under an H-1B actually have a Ph.D. And in the science world, this visa is a big deal.

Well, the most common visa for working scientists is called the H-1B. It was created in 1990. The idea was to have a limited number of highly skilled foreign nationals working in the U.S. for up to six years. You have to have at least a bachelor's degree to qualify, but many of the scientists working under an H-1B actually have a Ph.D. And in the science world, this visa is a big deal.

It's sometimes called the secret weapon because it allows universities and tech companies to hire top talent from around the world.

It's sometimes called the secret weapon because it allows universities and tech companies to hire top talent from around the world.

So three months into his first term, President Trump spoke at Snap-on Tools in Kenosha, Wisconsin. He was standing in front of this flag made of red, white, and blue tools, and he unveiled a plan to restrict work visas, specifically the H-1B.

So three months into his first term, President Trump spoke at Snap-on Tools in Kenosha, Wisconsin. He was standing in front of this flag made of red, white, and blue tools, and he unveiled a plan to restrict work visas, specifically the H-1B.

At the time, Trump issued several executive orders designed to make these visas harder to get. Then in 2020, he temporarily suspended the new H-1B visas. Now, the Biden administration came in, reversed a lot of those changes. But with Trump returning to office now, there could be another shift.

At the time, Trump issued several executive orders designed to make these visas harder to get. Then in 2020, he temporarily suspended the new H-1B visas. Now, the Biden administration came in, reversed a lot of those changes. But with Trump returning to office now, there could be another shift.

Trump has named Stephen Miller as his deputy chief of staff, and Miller was the main architect of the H-1B restrictions under the first Trump administration's. On the other hand, Elon Musk has been a supporter of the visas and he's pretty influential.

Trump has named Stephen Miller as his deputy chief of staff, and Miller was the main architect of the H-1B restrictions under the first Trump administration's. On the other hand, Elon Musk has been a supporter of the visas and he's pretty influential.

It means a lot of anxiety. High-level science is this increasingly international sport. So, for example, I talked to Leili Mordezavi. She's a brain scientist who was born in Iran and is now getting her doctorate at Stanford University. She almost didn't get to come because of what's often called the Trump administration's Muslim ban, which kept out Iranian citizens.

It means a lot of anxiety. High-level science is this increasingly international sport. So, for example, I talked to Leili Mordezavi. She's a brain scientist who was born in Iran and is now getting her doctorate at Stanford University. She almost didn't get to come because of what's often called the Trump administration's Muslim ban, which kept out Iranian citizens.

But Murtazavi was able to get a Canadian passport to attend Stanford.

But Murtazavi was able to get a Canadian passport to attend Stanford.

Right. I mean, she's worried about getting a visa to work in the U.S. So she's looking at jobs in other countries like Canada. She's also looked at Oxford and University College London.

Right. I mean, she's worried about getting a visa to work in the U.S. So she's looking at jobs in other countries like Canada. She's also looked at Oxford and University College London.

They're clearly worried. You have some tech firms like Box, you know, the cloud computing firm, that are making the case that H-1B visas are good for the U.S. economy. Universities are saying very little. I contacted at least half a dozen major research institutions over the past few weeks, and they pretty much declined to comment.

They're clearly worried. You have some tech firms like Box, you know, the cloud computing firm, that are making the case that H-1B visas are good for the U.S. economy. Universities are saying very little. I contacted at least half a dozen major research institutions over the past few weeks, and they pretty much declined to comment.

I also reached out to the Trump transition team, but I haven't heard back yet.

I also reached out to the Trump transition team, but I haven't heard back yet.

Always happy to be here.

Always happy to be here.

Hey, yeah. So the thing to keep in mind about Carney is that he won this election running with an anti-Trump message. Canadians were voting as Trump was ramping up his tariff war, and Canada's economy is highly dependent on exports to the U.S. Trump doesn't like that Canada sells more than it buys.

Hey, yeah. So the thing to keep in mind about Carney is that he won this election running with an anti-Trump message. Canadians were voting as Trump was ramping up his tariff war, and Canada's economy is highly dependent on exports to the U.S. Trump doesn't like that Canada sells more than it buys.

And like you heard in that NBC interview, that clip you just played, Trump continues to say he wants to make Canada into America's 51st state. So The election there was seen as a referendum against Trump. Carney has a background in banking and has never held an elected position before. And he ran with the argument that Canada needs to forge its own path and be less reliant on the U.S.

And like you heard in that NBC interview, that clip you just played, Trump continues to say he wants to make Canada into America's 51st state. So The election there was seen as a referendum against Trump. Carney has a background in banking and has never held an elected position before. And he ran with the argument that Canada needs to forge its own path and be less reliant on the U.S.

Yeah, exactly. I mean, here's what Carney said on election night.

Yeah, exactly. I mean, here's what Carney said on election night.

It's typical for new Canadian prime ministers to make their first foreign trip to the U.S., but Carney instead chose to go to Europe, and that sends a certain message.

It's typical for new Canadian prime ministers to make their first foreign trip to the U.S., but Carney instead chose to go to Europe, and that sends a certain message.

So I talked to Asa McKercher. He's a professor of public policy at St. Francis Xavier University in Nova Scotia. And he says Carney has to play this balancing act, right, of standing up for Canada, but also not irking Trump, which is kind of tricky. But he says Carney could have a less conflicted relationship with Trump compared to his predecessor, Justin Trudeau, who Trump often mocked.

So I talked to Asa McKercher. He's a professor of public policy at St. Francis Xavier University in Nova Scotia. And he says Carney has to play this balancing act, right, of standing up for Canada, but also not irking Trump, which is kind of tricky. But he says Carney could have a less conflicted relationship with Trump compared to his predecessor, Justin Trudeau, who Trump often mocked.

And he also says that the meeting might be a chance for Trump and Carney to kind of have a reset.

And he also says that the meeting might be a chance for Trump and Carney to kind of have a reset.

Yeah, you know, it's a pretty unprecedented thing to say, but it speaks to how much relations have soured since Trump's tariff war. Carney told Canadian reporters a few days ago not to expect white smoke out of this meeting on a new trade deal. And, you know, he's referencing the smoke signal that goes up when a new pope is chosen. So he's already tempering expectations.

Yeah, you know, it's a pretty unprecedented thing to say, but it speaks to how much relations have soured since Trump's tariff war. Carney told Canadian reporters a few days ago not to expect white smoke out of this meeting on a new trade deal. And, you know, he's referencing the smoke signal that goes up when a new pope is chosen. So he's already tempering expectations.

But, you know, at the same time, Canada is already looking for new, more reliable trading partners. There's reports that South Korean companies are pitching sales of military equipment to Canada, which is significant because in the past, Canada's gotten most of their defense products from the U.S.

But, you know, at the same time, Canada is already looking for new, more reliable trading partners. There's reports that South Korean companies are pitching sales of military equipment to Canada, which is significant because in the past, Canada's gotten most of their defense products from the U.S.

Thank you.

Thank you.

They stole our voice, they stole our future, and we do not accept that.

They stole our voice, they stole our future, and we do not accept that.

They stole our voice, they stole our future. And we do not accept that. We will stand here, how long it takes. I will protect my country, I will protect my voice. And I'll be glad if many, many people will join us.

They stole our voice, they stole our future. And we do not accept that. We will stand here, how long it takes. I will protect my country, I will protect my voice. And I'll be glad if many, many people will join us.

We're going to find out whether or not he's tapping us along or not.

We're going to find out whether or not he's tapping us along or not.

If I think I'm close to getting a deal, I don't want to screw it up by doing that. Let me tell you, I'm a lot tougher than the people you're talking about, but you have to know when to use that.

If I think I'm close to getting a deal, I don't want to screw it up by doing that. Let me tell you, I'm a lot tougher than the people you're talking about, but you have to know when to use that.

I used an appropriate channel to communicate sensitive information. It was permissible to do so. I didn't transfer any classified information.

I used an appropriate channel to communicate sensitive information. It was permissible to do so. I didn't transfer any classified information.

Look, we get it. When it comes to new music, there is a lot of it, and it all comes really fast. But on All Songs Considered, NPR's music recommendation podcast, we'll handpick what we think is the greatest music happening right now and give you your next great listen. So kick back, settle in, get those eardrums wide open, and get your dose of new music from All Songs Considered, only from NPR.

Look, we get it. When it comes to new music, there is a lot of it, and it all comes really fast. But on All Songs Considered, NPR's music recommendation podcast, we'll handpick what we think is the greatest music happening right now and give you your next great listen. So kick back, settle in, get those eardrums wide open, and get your dose of new music from All Songs Considered, only from NPR.

Well, the fallout in markets has been far and wide. You know, some of the countries that are hardest hit by the tariffs and actually that are most dependent on trade with the U.S. are in Asia. And we saw a broad sell off here from Hong Kong and China to South Korea, all the way down to Southeast Asia. Markets were down.

Well, the fallout in markets has been far and wide. You know, some of the countries that are hardest hit by the tariffs and actually that are most dependent on trade with the U.S. are in Asia. And we saw a broad sell off here from Hong Kong and China to South Korea, all the way down to Southeast Asia. Markets were down.

Trump put a 24 percent tariff on Japanese goods, which apparently surprised markets there. The Nikkei 225 dropped close to 3 percent today. In Vietnam, which has been a huge beneficiary of U.S.-China trade friction as manufacturers have moved south of the border, Trump hit it with one of the highest tariff rates, 46 percent.

Trump put a 24 percent tariff on Japanese goods, which apparently surprised markets there. The Nikkei 225 dropped close to 3 percent today. In Vietnam, which has been a huge beneficiary of U.S.-China trade friction as manufacturers have moved south of the border, Trump hit it with one of the highest tariff rates, 46 percent.

And the country's Ho Chi Minh stock index shed nearly 7 percent on the day. In Europe, it seems to be a similar story of selling. You know, economists are recalibrating their expectations now and investors are just nervous.

And the country's Ho Chi Minh stock index shed nearly 7 percent on the day. In Europe, it seems to be a similar story of selling. You know, economists are recalibrating their expectations now and investors are just nervous.

Unhappiness and frustration so far. I mean, many say these tariffs were unwarranted. Here's Prime Minister Anthony Albanese of Australia, which got the bare minimum 10%.

Unhappiness and frustration so far. I mean, many say these tariffs were unwarranted. Here's Prime Minister Anthony Albanese of Australia, which got the bare minimum 10%.

Britain was hit with the minimum 10% also, but the prime minister's office there expressed some relief that the country wasn't hit with 20% like the EU. Speaking of which, the European Commission president said Europe was open to negotiations but working on countermeasures in case the talks fail.

Britain was hit with the minimum 10% also, but the prime minister's office there expressed some relief that the country wasn't hit with 20% like the EU. Speaking of which, the European Commission president said Europe was open to negotiations but working on countermeasures in case the talks fail.

You know, President Trump has signaled that he's open to dealmaking, so many countries are taking these sweeping tariffs as kind of an opening salvo for negotiations. Others are looking at a range of options. You know, Japan, Brazil, China have suggested that tariffs break World Trade Organization rules.

You know, President Trump has signaled that he's open to dealmaking, so many countries are taking these sweeping tariffs as kind of an opening salvo for negotiations. Others are looking at a range of options. You know, Japan, Brazil, China have suggested that tariffs break World Trade Organization rules.

Well, the Commerce Ministry issued a statement calling for the removal of these tariffs, and it says protectionism leads nowhere. China's been hammered by tariffs before and was frankly girding for this moment. The across-the-board tariff rate on Chinese imports to the U.S. now is about 54 percent. Trump was talking about 60 percent while he was campaigning, so it's not far off from that.

Well, the Commerce Ministry issued a statement calling for the removal of these tariffs, and it says protectionism leads nowhere. China's been hammered by tariffs before and was frankly girding for this moment. The across-the-board tariff rate on Chinese imports to the U.S. now is about 54 percent. Trump was talking about 60 percent while he was campaigning, so it's not far off from that.

Professor Wu Xinbo of Fudan University in Shanghai thinks China will retaliate once the Trump tariffs take effect in a few days, and then hopefully at some point the two sides can talk.

Professor Wu Xinbo of Fudan University in Shanghai thinks China will retaliate once the Trump tariffs take effect in a few days, and then hopefully at some point the two sides can talk.

But he thinks China can afford to punch back and then wait for a bit to see if Trump administration feels some heat from all these tariffs. Any sense of how damaging these tariffs will be to these countries? Yeah, I asked Jack Zhang about this. He's a professor at the University of Kansas, and he runs the trade war lab there. He says it kind of all depends.

But he thinks China can afford to punch back and then wait for a bit to see if Trump administration feels some heat from all these tariffs. Any sense of how damaging these tariffs will be to these countries? Yeah, I asked Jack Zhang about this. He's a professor at the University of Kansas, and he runs the trade war lab there. He says it kind of all depends.

I still hold out a sliver of hope because it depends on how much trade destruction happens, and that depends on how much retaliation we're going to see. You know, a lot of economists think these tariffs are going to be a big global shock anyway and could push, you know, many countries into recession. That is NPR's John Wirtz in Beijing.

I still hold out a sliver of hope because it depends on how much trade destruction happens, and that depends on how much retaliation we're going to see. You know, a lot of economists think these tariffs are going to be a big global shock anyway and could push, you know, many countries into recession. That is NPR's John Wirtz in Beijing.

You're welcome.

You're welcome.

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After that, I'm not going to be a dictator.

After that, I'm not going to be a dictator.

We always ask our respondents to rate the performance of American democracy on a 0 to 100 scale. So 0 would be complete dictatorship and 100 would be perfect democracy.

We always ask our respondents to rate the performance of American democracy on a 0 to 100 scale. So 0 would be complete dictatorship and 100 would be perfect democracy.

If you had asked me five years ago, I never would have expected the United States to have fallen this far.

If you had asked me five years ago, I never would have expected the United States to have fallen this far.

I have stopped all government censorship and brought back free speech in America.

I have stopped all government censorship and brought back free speech in America.

I always say, you know, nobody is born believing in the First Amendment. You know, we have to learn that. And so it's a continual effort by a democracy.

I always say, you know, nobody is born believing in the First Amendment. You know, we have to learn that. And so it's a continual effort by a democracy.

I'm very alarmed by efforts to get media, major media, to become more silent. I'm worried about intrusions into university decision-making, traditional doctrines of academic freedom. I'm worried about threats of prosecution and other types of means of quelling dissent.

I'm very alarmed by efforts to get media, major media, to become more silent. I'm worried about intrusions into university decision-making, traditional doctrines of academic freedom. I'm worried about threats of prosecution and other types of means of quelling dissent.

You're really using the enormous power of the federal government to act. Now, Turley...

You're really using the enormous power of the federal government to act. Now, Turley...

Insofar as the government is going after this person, Khalil, because of ideas that he expressed, we have a direct collision with the First Amendment.

Insofar as the government is going after this person, Khalil, because of ideas that he expressed, we have a direct collision with the First Amendment.

Insofar as the government is going after this person, Khalil, because of ideas that he expressed, we have a direct collision with the First Amendment.

Insofar as the government is going after this person, Khalil, because of ideas that he expressed, we have a direct collision with the First Amendment.

Yeah, it is the product of years of disputes. Taylor Swift's first six albums came out on a label called Big Machine Records. In 2019, after she'd completed that contract, Big Machine was sold to a group led by her former manager, Scooter Braun. The next year, he sold the masters to a group called Shamrock Holdings. Taylor Swift was furious.

Yeah, it is the product of years of disputes. Taylor Swift's first six albums came out on a label called Big Machine Records. In 2019, after she'd completed that contract, Big Machine was sold to a group led by her former manager, Scooter Braun. The next year, he sold the masters to a group called Shamrock Holdings. Taylor Swift was furious.

She still coveted ownership of her masters and felt like she'd been kind of denied the chance to bid on her own work. And so she set about recording new versions of those albums herself, basically to create a new set of master recordings that she would control. But she has openly wished for years that she could acquire those rights and to essentially own her entire career output outright,

She still coveted ownership of her masters and felt like she'd been kind of denied the chance to bid on her own work. And so she set about recording new versions of those albums herself, basically to create a new set of master recordings that she would control. But she has openly wished for years that she could acquire those rights and to essentially own her entire career output outright,

How much did this cost Taylor Swift to get back her own masters? Billboard magazine is reporting that she paid roughly $360 million and that that's not far off from what Shamrock Holdings paid. What does it mean for an artist to own their own master recordings? Well, Taylor Swift has always retained publishing rights to her songs. She writes her own material.

How much did this cost Taylor Swift to get back her own masters? Billboard magazine is reporting that she paid roughly $360 million and that that's not far off from what Shamrock Holdings paid. What does it mean for an artist to own their own master recordings? Well, Taylor Swift has always retained publishing rights to her songs. She writes her own material.

That's part of what allowed her to re-record the albums herself. But owning the masters means that she has complete control of how her music is used. like the actual recordings themselves. She can authorize their use on soundtracks and commercials, however she wants. And it goes without saying that the catalog for an artist like Taylor Swift is worth an absolute fortune.

That's part of what allowed her to re-record the albums herself. But owning the masters means that she has complete control of how her music is used. like the actual recordings themselves. She can authorize their use on soundtracks and commercials, however she wants. And it goes without saying that the catalog for an artist like Taylor Swift is worth an absolute fortune.

It's no longer a tradable asset to anyone but Taylor Swift herself. And I think it's safe to say that her catalog is no longer for sale.

It's no longer a tradable asset to anyone but Taylor Swift herself. And I think it's safe to say that her catalog is no longer for sale.

There's definitely precedent for it. You know, artists have gone back and reacquired their rights. Jay-Z, Rihanna, you know, a few others have gone back and gone through the process of purchasing their own works. But she's kind of trying to set a template for other artists going forward to make sure that in the deals they sign, they have the opportunity to reacquire control of their own work.

There's definitely precedent for it. You know, artists have gone back and reacquired their rights. Jay-Z, Rihanna, you know, a few others have gone back and gone through the process of purchasing their own works. But she's kind of trying to set a template for other artists going forward to make sure that in the deals they sign, they have the opportunity to reacquire control of their own work.

Well, in the statement that she made on her website, she said she's still going to put out those Taylor's versions of the other two records that haven't come out yet. Her self-titled debut from 2006 and her album Reputation from 2017. She said the debut record is basically done. It's ready to be released.

Well, in the statement that she made on her website, she said she's still going to put out those Taylor's versions of the other two records that haven't come out yet. Her self-titled debut from 2006 and her album Reputation from 2017. She said the debut record is basically done. It's ready to be released.

But that Reputation is going to take a while because it's the one she feels the least need to retool. So the way she put it is. is that those new versions are still going to come out, but there'll be a celebration instead of a bittersweet reclamation. She's now the soul keeper of the Taylor Swift empire. I hope she writes a whole album about how happy she is.

But that Reputation is going to take a while because it's the one she feels the least need to retool. So the way she put it is. is that those new versions are still going to come out, but there'll be a celebration instead of a bittersweet reclamation. She's now the soul keeper of the Taylor Swift empire. I hope she writes a whole album about how happy she is.

These North Korean soldiers appear to be highly indoctrinated, pushing attacks even when it is clear that those attacks are futile. We also have reports of North Korean soldiers taking their own lives.

These North Korean soldiers appear to be highly indoctrinated, pushing attacks even when it is clear that those attacks are futile. We also have reports of North Korean soldiers taking their own lives.

I'm a changed person, and it's primarily because it has changed me fundamentally in the way I go about life every day.

I'm a changed person, and it's primarily because it has changed me fundamentally in the way I go about life every day.

These North Korean soldiers appear to be highly indoctrinated, pushing attacks even when it is clear that those attacks are futile.

These North Korean soldiers appear to be highly indoctrinated, pushing attacks even when it is clear that those attacks are futile.

Well, it started with those reciprocal tariffs on Liberation Day. Trump imposed tariffs on countries from around the world, of course, and China was hit with a 34% levy. Beijing was less than pleased about it. So two days later, China matched that with a tit-for-tat 34% tariff on U.S. imports. Trump didn't like that. He added 50% on top of it. China responded with 50%. Trump added more.

Well, it started with those reciprocal tariffs on Liberation Day. Trump imposed tariffs on countries from around the world, of course, and China was hit with a 34% levy. Beijing was less than pleased about it. So two days later, China matched that with a tit-for-tat 34% tariff on U.S. imports. Trump didn't like that. He added 50% on top of it. China responded with 50%. Trump added more.

China responded. So by the end of the week, the base tariff on Chinese imports into the United States was 145 percent. And U.S. products entering China now get hit with a 125 percent tariff. It was a dizzying upward spiral. And these are crippling numbers.

China responded. So by the end of the week, the base tariff on Chinese imports into the United States was 145 percent. And U.S. products entering China now get hit with a 125 percent tariff. It was a dizzying upward spiral. And these are crippling numbers.

Yeah, there's no end in sight to the acrimony at the moment. But Beijing did something kind of interesting on Friday when they increased tariffs that last time to 125 percent. They said they were done playing the tit for tat game. So with tariffs at that rate, they said U.S. products are no longer competitive in China.

Yeah, there's no end in sight to the acrimony at the moment. But Beijing did something kind of interesting on Friday when they increased tariffs that last time to 125 percent. They said they were done playing the tit for tat game. So with tariffs at that rate, they said U.S. products are no longer competitive in China.

And if Trump continues to raise tariffs on Chinese goods, it would be a, quote, joke. And China just wouldn't match them. Now, China is not going to roll over. Officials in Beijing said they will continue to protect their rights and interests. So perhaps it's a dual signal, you know, restraint on one hand on the tariffs, but also kind of a don't mess with us signal.

And if Trump continues to raise tariffs on Chinese goods, it would be a, quote, joke. And China just wouldn't match them. Now, China is not going to roll over. Officials in Beijing said they will continue to protect their rights and interests. So perhaps it's a dual signal, you know, restraint on one hand on the tariffs, but also kind of a don't mess with us signal.

Experts do say there does come a point, you know, when raising tariffs further just doesn't do anything. And these tariffs are already sky high. Victor Gao is with the Beijing based think tank, the Center for China and Globalization.

Experts do say there does come a point, you know, when raising tariffs further just doesn't do anything. And these tariffs are already sky high. Victor Gao is with the Beijing based think tank, the Center for China and Globalization.

Well, there's a lot of confusion and caution now. Things have been moving at such a high speed. A few weeks ago, your colleague, Morning Edition host Steve Inskeep was here. He went to a city called Yiwu, which is famous for trading, and talked to a woman there named Nicole Zhang, who sells hairpins and claw clips for the hair. We caught up with her.

Well, there's a lot of confusion and caution now. Things have been moving at such a high speed. A few weeks ago, your colleague, Morning Edition host Steve Inskeep was here. He went to a city called Yiwu, which is famous for trading, and talked to a woman there named Nicole Zhang, who sells hairpins and claw clips for the hair. We caught up with her.

So she's saying that she had an order from February, which she previously told us was for Target. The deposit still hasn't been paid on that. Everybody's just waiting to see what happens. She's putting on a brave face, though. She thinks this whole thing is going to be temporary.

So she's saying that she had an order from February, which she previously told us was for Target. The deposit still hasn't been paid on that. Everybody's just waiting to see what happens. She's putting on a brave face, though. She thinks this whole thing is going to be temporary.

We don't. It's hard to imagine the world's top two economies not doing trade with each other. Trump says he's willing to talk and that China wants to do a deal but hasn't called him. China says it's open to talks, but they have to be conducted on the basis of mutual respect. And so it's unclear where things go from here. It doesn't seem like conditions are right for talks or a breakthrough.

We don't. It's hard to imagine the world's top two economies not doing trade with each other. Trump says he's willing to talk and that China wants to do a deal but hasn't called him. China says it's open to talks, but they have to be conducted on the basis of mutual respect. And so it's unclear where things go from here. It doesn't seem like conditions are right for talks or a breakthrough.

Maybe it'll take some economic pain from these tariffs before either side decides they want to get together and have these conversations.

Maybe it'll take some economic pain from these tariffs before either side decides they want to get together and have these conversations.

The origins of the modern civil service. Listen to ThruLine wherever you get your podcasts.

The origins of the modern civil service. Listen to ThruLine wherever you get your podcasts.

It is absolutely alarming from a privacy perspective. It's reckless. It is an unprecedented extension of the administration's campaign to consolidate personal data.

It is absolutely alarming from a privacy perspective. It's reckless. It is an unprecedented extension of the administration's campaign to consolidate personal data.

Good morning.

Good morning.

Yeah, late on Friday, Customs and Border Protection posted a notice online. It was full of legalese and arcane tariff codes, and what it translated into was no tariffs on mobile phones, computers, memory chips, flat screens, LEDs, stuff like that. This is substantial because electronics account for roughly a quarter of Chinese exports to the U.S.

Yeah, late on Friday, Customs and Border Protection posted a notice online. It was full of legalese and arcane tariff codes, and what it translated into was no tariffs on mobile phones, computers, memory chips, flat screens, LEDs, stuff like that. This is substantial because electronics account for roughly a quarter of Chinese exports to the U.S.

China's Commerce Ministry responded fairly quickly over the weekend, calling it a small step toward correcting the error of imposing those so-called reciprocal tariffs on China and on other countries.

China's Commerce Ministry responded fairly quickly over the weekend, calling it a small step toward correcting the error of imposing those so-called reciprocal tariffs on China and on other countries.

It was initially, but it doesn't look like it is. You know, Trump's come out on social media to say that nobody's getting off the hook. These products are just moving to a different tariff bucket. Commerce Secretary Howard Lutnick explained it on Sunday on ABC's This Week.

It was initially, but it doesn't look like it is. You know, Trump's come out on social media to say that nobody's getting off the hook. These products are just moving to a different tariff bucket. Commerce Secretary Howard Lutnick explained it on Sunday on ABC's This Week.

So he's saying they're exempted from the so-called reciprocal tariffs that Trump announced so that they're sort of off the menu for negotiation. Why? Because they're going to be lumped in with semiconductors under a separate tariff that he says will be announced in the next month or two. And not just on China. And the idea is to force supply chains of those products back to the U.S.

So he's saying they're exempted from the so-called reciprocal tariffs that Trump announced so that they're sort of off the menu for negotiation. Why? Because they're going to be lumped in with semiconductors under a separate tariff that he says will be announced in the next month or two. And not just on China. And the idea is to force supply chains of those products back to the U.S.

Well, China's been pretty consistent. They've projected defiance throughout this. You know, Trump seems to be waiting for Chinese leader Xi Jinping to pick up the phone and call him. That's not how China operates. It doesn't mean that they're not open to discussion, though. I asked Andy Rothman about this last night here in Beijing.

Well, China's been pretty consistent. They've projected defiance throughout this. You know, Trump seems to be waiting for Chinese leader Xi Jinping to pick up the phone and call him. That's not how China operates. It doesn't mean that they're not open to discussion, though. I asked Andy Rothman about this last night here in Beijing.

He advises investors and corporate boards on China, and he's been on a trip here meeting companies and contacts.

He advises investors and corporate boards on China, and he's been on a trip here meeting companies and contacts.

Meanwhile, China has taken steps to, you know, gird for these tariffs. One part of that is deepening relations with other countries, in particular neighbors. And it just so happens that Xi Jinping left today on his first overseas trip of the year. OK, now that's interesting. So where is he headed? First stop is Vietnam. He's in Hanoi now.

Meanwhile, China has taken steps to, you know, gird for these tariffs. One part of that is deepening relations with other countries, in particular neighbors. And it just so happens that Xi Jinping left today on his first overseas trip of the year. OK, now that's interesting. So where is he headed? First stop is Vietnam. He's in Hanoi now.

He heads to Malaysia next for three days and then to Cambodia. The Chinese government's projecting China as sort of an anchor in rough seas, a reliable trading partner. In fact, she had a piece in the Vietnamese Communist Party's mouthpiece newspaper today calling for joint efforts to protect the multilateral trading system and maintain stable supply chains.

He heads to Malaysia next for three days and then to Cambodia. The Chinese government's projecting China as sort of an anchor in rough seas, a reliable trading partner. In fact, she had a piece in the Vietnamese Communist Party's mouthpiece newspaper today calling for joint efforts to protect the multilateral trading system and maintain stable supply chains.

But these Southeast Asian countries are in a tough spot. They've all benefited to some extent from the trade friction between the U.S. and China in recent years because manufacturing has moved their way. And also, they are all negotiating or seeking to negotiate with the Trump administration to keep the tariffs off.

But these Southeast Asian countries are in a tough spot. They've all benefited to some extent from the trade friction between the U.S. and China in recent years because manufacturing has moved their way. And also, they are all negotiating or seeking to negotiate with the Trump administration to keep the tariffs off.

You're welcome.

You're welcome.

In total, 117 drones were used in the operation.

In total, 117 drones were used in the operation.

So the group that was attacked is the local chapter of what's known as Run for Their Lives. These are groups that walk weekly to keep the attention on the hostages. And in Boulder, they walk up a pedestrian mall and stop at the courthouse to sing and to recite names.

So the group that was attacked is the local chapter of what's known as Run for Their Lives. These are groups that walk weekly to keep the attention on the hostages. And in Boulder, they walk up a pedestrian mall and stop at the courthouse to sing and to recite names.

And this week when they did that, they were met by a shirtless man holding homemade incendiary devices who yelled at the walkers and apparently set some of them on fire.

And this week when they did that, they were met by a shirtless man holding homemade incendiary devices who yelled at the walkers and apparently set some of them on fire.

Well, eight people were injured by the latest count, two seriously enough to be airlifted to a hospital near Denver. And they were aged 52 to 88. Organizers have told other news outlets that one of them was a Holocaust survivor. And as you can imagine, this has really shaken and horrified the Jewish community in Boulder and the wider community as well.

Well, eight people were injured by the latest count, two seriously enough to be airlifted to a hospital near Denver. And they were aged 52 to 88. Organizers have told other news outlets that one of them was a Holocaust survivor. And as you can imagine, this has really shaken and horrified the Jewish community in Boulder and the wider community as well.

At this point, not much more than his name. He's 45-year-old Mohamed Sabri Solomon of Colorado Springs. Authorities think that he acted on his own, but we haven't been able to learn all that much more about him so far.

At this point, not much more than his name. He's 45-year-old Mohamed Sabri Solomon of Colorado Springs. Authorities think that he acted on his own, but we haven't been able to learn all that much more about him so far.

Well, there was swift condemnation, of course. Colorado's attorney general called it a hate crime. Our governor, who's Jewish, noted that it occurred hours before the start of the Jewish holiday of Shavuot. And for some of the people we talked to in the Jewish community, what we really heard was this feeling that they wanted to say they were surprised by what happened.

Well, there was swift condemnation, of course. Colorado's attorney general called it a hate crime. Our governor, who's Jewish, noted that it occurred hours before the start of the Jewish holiday of Shavuot. And for some of the people we talked to in the Jewish community, what we really heard was this feeling that they wanted to say they were surprised by what happened.

But after the killing of Israeli embassy workers in D.C. last month and the attack on the governor's mansion in Pennsylvania last They just weren't surprised in that same way. That's certainly what we heard from Stephanie Clark. She's one of the leaders of Stop Antisemitism Colorado.

But after the killing of Israeli embassy workers in D.C. last month and the attack on the governor's mansion in Pennsylvania last They just weren't surprised in that same way. That's certainly what we heard from Stephanie Clark. She's one of the leaders of Stop Antisemitism Colorado.

I'll say the reaction goes way beyond Colorado. Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu issued a statement this morning saying he, his wife, and the people of Israel are praying for the recovery of the victims. And Israel's ambassador to the UN, Danny Dannen, said, In Boulder, Colorado, Jewish people marched with a moral and humane demand to return the hostages.

I'll say the reaction goes way beyond Colorado. Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu issued a statement this morning saying he, his wife, and the people of Israel are praying for the recovery of the victims. And Israel's ambassador to the UN, Danny Dannen, said, In Boulder, Colorado, Jewish people marched with a moral and humane demand to return the hostages.

In response, the Jewish protesters were brutally attacked. Make no mistake, this is not a political protest. This is terrorism.

In response, the Jewish protesters were brutally attacked. Make no mistake, this is not a political protest. This is terrorism.

Thank you.

Thank you.

I keep learning again and again that hope is the right response to the human condition. And I have to learn this over and over again because despair is an incredibly powerful force in my life.

I keep learning again and again that hope is the right response to the human condition. And I have to learn this over and over again because despair is an incredibly powerful force in my life.

In total, 117 drones were used in the operation.

So the group that was attacked is the local chapter of what's known as Run for Their Lives. These are groups that walk weekly to keep the attention on the hostages. And in Boulder, they walk up a pedestrian mall and stop at the courthouse to sing and to recite names.

And this week when they did that, they were met by a shirtless man holding homemade incendiary devices who yelled at the walkers and apparently set some of them on fire.

Well, eight people were injured by the latest count, two seriously enough to be airlifted to a hospital near Denver. And they were aged 52 to 88. Organizers have told other news outlets that one of them was a Holocaust survivor. And as you can imagine, this has really shaken and horrified the Jewish community in Boulder and the wider community as well.

At this point, not much more than his name. He's 45-year-old Mohamed Sabri Solomon of Colorado Springs. Authorities think that he acted on his own, but we haven't been able to learn all that much more about him so far.

Well, there was swift condemnation, of course. Colorado's attorney general called it a hate crime. Our governor, who's Jewish, noted that it occurred hours before the start of the Jewish holiday of Shavuot. And for some of the people we talked to in the Jewish community, what we really heard was this feeling that they wanted to say they were surprised by what happened.

But after the killing of Israeli embassy workers in D.C. last month and the attack on the governor's mansion in Pennsylvania last They just weren't surprised in that same way. That's certainly what we heard from Stephanie Clark. She's one of the leaders of Stop Antisemitism Colorado.

I'll say the reaction goes way beyond Colorado. Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu issued a statement this morning saying he, his wife, and the people of Israel are praying for the recovery of the victims. And Israel's ambassador to the UN, Danny Dannen, said, In Boulder, Colorado, Jewish people marched with a moral and humane demand to return the hostages.

In response, the Jewish protesters were brutally attacked. Make no mistake, this is not a political protest. This is terrorism.

Thank you.

Yeah, it is the product of years of disputes. Taylor Swift's first six albums came out on a label called Big Machine Records. In 2019, after she'd completed that contract, Big Machine was sold to a group led by her former manager, Scooter Braun. The next year, he sold the masters to a group called Shamrock Holdings. Taylor Swift was furious.

She still coveted ownership of her masters and felt like she'd been kind of denied the chance to bid on her own work. And so she set about recording new versions of those albums herself, basically to create a new set of master recordings that she would control. But she has openly wished for years that she could acquire those rights and to essentially own her entire career output outright,

How much did this cost Taylor Swift to get back her own masters? Billboard magazine is reporting that she paid roughly $360 million and that that's not far off from what Shamrock Holdings paid. What does it mean for an artist to own their own master recordings? Well, Taylor Swift has always retained publishing rights to her songs. She writes her own material.

That's part of what allowed her to re-record the albums herself. But owning the masters means that she has complete control of how her music is used. like the actual recordings themselves. She can authorize their use on soundtracks and commercials, however she wants. And it goes without saying that the catalog for an artist like Taylor Swift is worth an absolute fortune.

It's no longer a tradable asset to anyone but Taylor Swift herself. And I think it's safe to say that her catalog is no longer for sale.

There's definitely precedent for it. You know, artists have gone back and reacquired their rights. Jay-Z, Rihanna, you know, a few others have gone back and gone through the process of purchasing their own works. But she's kind of trying to set a template for other artists going forward to make sure that in the deals they sign, they have the opportunity to reacquire control of their own work.

Well, in the statement that she made on her website, she said she's still going to put out those Taylor's versions of the other two records that haven't come out yet. Her self-titled debut from 2006 and her album Reputation from 2017. She said the debut record is basically done. It's ready to be released.

But that Reputation is going to take a while because it's the one she feels the least need to retool. So the way she put it is. is that those new versions are still going to come out, but there'll be a celebration instead of a bittersweet reclamation. She's now the soul keeper of the Taylor Swift empire. I hope she writes a whole album about how happy she is.

We're going to find out whether or not he's tapping us along or not.

If I think I'm close to getting a deal, I don't want to screw it up by doing that. Let me tell you, I'm a lot tougher than the people you're talking about, but you have to know when to use that.

After that, I'm not going to be a dictator.

We always ask our respondents to rate the performance of American democracy on a 0 to 100 scale. So 0 would be complete dictatorship and 100 would be perfect democracy.

If you had asked me five years ago, I never would have expected the United States to have fallen this far.

It is absolutely alarming from a privacy perspective. It's reckless. It is an unprecedented extension of the administration's campaign to consolidate personal data.

Hey, yeah. So the thing to keep in mind about Carney is that he won this election running with an anti-Trump message. Canadians were voting as Trump was ramping up his tariff war, and Canada's economy is highly dependent on exports to the U.S. Trump doesn't like that Canada sells more than it buys.

And like you heard in that NBC interview, that clip you just played, Trump continues to say he wants to make Canada into America's 51st state. So The election there was seen as a referendum against Trump. Carney has a background in banking and has never held an elected position before. And he ran with the argument that Canada needs to forge its own path and be less reliant on the U.S.

Yeah, exactly. I mean, here's what Carney said on election night.

It's typical for new Canadian prime ministers to make their first foreign trip to the U.S., but Carney instead chose to go to Europe, and that sends a certain message.

So I talked to Asa McKercher. He's a professor of public policy at St. Francis Xavier University in Nova Scotia. And he says Carney has to play this balancing act, right, of standing up for Canada, but also not irking Trump, which is kind of tricky. But he says Carney could have a less conflicted relationship with Trump compared to his predecessor, Justin Trudeau, who Trump often mocked.

And he also says that the meeting might be a chance for Trump and Carney to kind of have a reset.

Yeah, you know, it's a pretty unprecedented thing to say, but it speaks to how much relations have soured since Trump's tariff war. Carney told Canadian reporters a few days ago not to expect white smoke out of this meeting on a new trade deal. And, you know, he's referencing the smoke signal that goes up when a new pope is chosen. So he's already tempering expectations.

But, you know, at the same time, Canada is already looking for new, more reliable trading partners. There's reports that South Korean companies are pitching sales of military equipment to Canada, which is significant because in the past, Canada's gotten most of their defense products from the U.S.

Thank you.

Good morning.

Yeah, late on Friday, Customs and Border Protection posted a notice online. It was full of legalese and arcane tariff codes, and what it translated into was no tariffs on mobile phones, computers, memory chips, flat screens, LEDs, stuff like that. This is substantial because electronics account for roughly a quarter of Chinese exports to the U.S.

China's Commerce Ministry responded fairly quickly over the weekend, calling it a small step toward correcting the error of imposing those so-called reciprocal tariffs on China and on other countries.

It was initially, but it doesn't look like it is. You know, Trump's come out on social media to say that nobody's getting off the hook. These products are just moving to a different tariff bucket. Commerce Secretary Howard Lutnick explained it on Sunday on ABC's This Week.

So he's saying they're exempted from the so-called reciprocal tariffs that Trump announced so that they're sort of off the menu for negotiation. Why? Because they're going to be lumped in with semiconductors under a separate tariff that he says will be announced in the next month or two. And not just on China. And the idea is to force supply chains of those products back to the U.S.

Well, China's been pretty consistent. They've projected defiance throughout this. You know, Trump seems to be waiting for Chinese leader Xi Jinping to pick up the phone and call him. That's not how China operates. It doesn't mean that they're not open to discussion, though. I asked Andy Rothman about this last night here in Beijing.

He advises investors and corporate boards on China, and he's been on a trip here meeting companies and contacts.

Meanwhile, China has taken steps to, you know, gird for these tariffs. One part of that is deepening relations with other countries, in particular neighbors. And it just so happens that Xi Jinping left today on his first overseas trip of the year. OK, now that's interesting. So where is he headed? First stop is Vietnam. He's in Hanoi now.

He heads to Malaysia next for three days and then to Cambodia. The Chinese government's projecting China as sort of an anchor in rough seas, a reliable trading partner. In fact, she had a piece in the Vietnamese Communist Party's mouthpiece newspaper today calling for joint efforts to protect the multilateral trading system and maintain stable supply chains.

But these Southeast Asian countries are in a tough spot. They've all benefited to some extent from the trade friction between the U.S. and China in recent years because manufacturing has moved their way. And also, they are all negotiating or seeking to negotiate with the Trump administration to keep the tariffs off.

You're welcome.

I have stopped all government censorship and brought back free speech in America.

I always say, you know, nobody is born believing in the First Amendment. You know, we have to learn that. And so it's a continual effort by a democracy.

I'm very alarmed by efforts to get media, major media, to become more silent. I'm worried about intrusions into university decision-making, traditional doctrines of academic freedom. I'm worried about threats of prosecution and other types of means of quelling dissent.

You're really using the enormous power of the federal government to act. Now, Turley...

Insofar as the government is going after this person, Khalil, because of ideas that he expressed, we have a direct collision with the First Amendment.

Insofar as the government is going after this person, Khalil, because of ideas that he expressed, we have a direct collision with the First Amendment.

Well, it started with those reciprocal tariffs on Liberation Day. Trump imposed tariffs on countries from around the world, of course, and China was hit with a 34% levy. Beijing was less than pleased about it. So two days later, China matched that with a tit-for-tat 34% tariff on U.S. imports. Trump didn't like that. He added 50% on top of it. China responded with 50%. Trump added more.

China responded. So by the end of the week, the base tariff on Chinese imports into the United States was 145 percent. And U.S. products entering China now get hit with a 125 percent tariff. It was a dizzying upward spiral. And these are crippling numbers.

Yeah, there's no end in sight to the acrimony at the moment. But Beijing did something kind of interesting on Friday when they increased tariffs that last time to 125 percent. They said they were done playing the tit for tat game. So with tariffs at that rate, they said U.S. products are no longer competitive in China.

And if Trump continues to raise tariffs on Chinese goods, it would be a, quote, joke. And China just wouldn't match them. Now, China is not going to roll over. Officials in Beijing said they will continue to protect their rights and interests. So perhaps it's a dual signal, you know, restraint on one hand on the tariffs, but also kind of a don't mess with us signal.

Experts do say there does come a point, you know, when raising tariffs further just doesn't do anything. And these tariffs are already sky high. Victor Gao is with the Beijing based think tank, the Center for China and Globalization.

Well, there's a lot of confusion and caution now. Things have been moving at such a high speed. A few weeks ago, your colleague, Morning Edition host Steve Inskeep was here. He went to a city called Yiwu, which is famous for trading, and talked to a woman there named Nicole Zhang, who sells hairpins and claw clips for the hair. We caught up with her.

So she's saying that she had an order from February, which she previously told us was for Target. The deposit still hasn't been paid on that. Everybody's just waiting to see what happens. She's putting on a brave face, though. She thinks this whole thing is going to be temporary.

We don't. It's hard to imagine the world's top two economies not doing trade with each other. Trump says he's willing to talk and that China wants to do a deal but hasn't called him. China says it's open to talks, but they have to be conducted on the basis of mutual respect. And so it's unclear where things go from here. It doesn't seem like conditions are right for talks or a breakthrough.

Maybe it'll take some economic pain from these tariffs before either side decides they want to get together and have these conversations.

The origins of the modern civil service. Listen to ThruLine wherever you get your podcasts.

I keep learning again and again that hope is the right response to the human condition. And I have to learn this over and over again because despair is an incredibly powerful force in my life.

Yeah, Beijing really came out swinging today, once again, as it had promised. As you say, China announced that it was adding a 50% tariff on top of its other tariffs on U.S. imports, matching Trump's latest two escalations step for step. This takes the base tariff rate on U.S. imports into China up to 84%. Now, that's different than the base U.S. rate on Chinese imports to the U.S., which is 104%.

And that's because Trump imposed 20% tariffs earlier in the year and China responded differently. Since then, though, it's taken the gloves off. Here's Foreign Ministry spokesman Lin Jian speaking through an interpreter earlier today.

So in addition to the tariffs that were announced today, Beijing once again blacklisted a handful of U.S. companies, putting them on export control lists or unreliable entity lists.

Well, China's casting this whole thing in kind of stark black and white terms. It's essentially right versus wrong. Beijing projects itself as a champion of free and fair trade now and of multilateralism. And it accuses the U.S. of engaging in selfish and irresponsible protectionism, even blackmail in this case.

You know, President Trump said yesterday China wants to make a deal and he's waiting for them to call. Well, China's leadership has also flagged that it's willing to negotiate, but not under duress. The foreign ministry spokesman Lin Jian said the U.S. must adopt an attitude of equality, mutual benefit and respect.

I mean, ultimately, I think the Chinese leadership believes that China can tough it out and that in the long run, this trade war is going to damage the U.S. more than China. It's worth noting, of course, that China isn't the only country taking the path of retaliation. The European Union is planning to put sanctions on a range of U.S. goods from steel to non-alcoholic beer.

Yes, there absolutely will be pain from these tariffs and from the retaliation, you know. And that actually sorted the point, according to Guo Shan, who is a partner at the Beijing-based research firm Hutong Research. She says tariffs are basically so high now that meaningful negotiations are impossible until one side or the other cries uncle in caves.

Escalate to de-escalate is what's happening. She says Beijing has been preparing for this since the first trade war back in 2018. And leadership's confident. You know, China's been doubling down on policies to strengthen its self-sufficiency. Policymakers feel like they have a lot of ammunition for economic stimulus if they should need it. The currency's been allowed to weaken.

The government's been propping up share prices, et cetera, et cetera. So China's been expanding its trade also with diplomatic and diplomatic relations with other countries.

Well, Asian stocks fell sharply today. Some governments in the region are trying to position their economies to cushion the blow. India, for instance, cut benchmark interest rates today. Governments haven't said a whole lot. They're working quietly, trying to negotiate to get these tariffs lowered or dropped.

Well, the fallout in markets has been far and wide. You know, some of the countries that are hardest hit by the tariffs and actually that are most dependent on trade with the U.S. are in Asia. And we saw a broad sell off here from Hong Kong and China to South Korea, all the way down to Southeast Asia. Markets were down.

Trump put a 24 percent tariff on Japanese goods, which apparently surprised markets there. The Nikkei 225 dropped close to 3 percent today. In Vietnam, which has been a huge beneficiary of U.S.-China trade friction as manufacturers have moved south of the border, Trump hit it with one of the highest tariff rates, 46 percent.

And the country's Ho Chi Minh stock index shed nearly 7 percent on the day. In Europe, it seems to be a similar story of selling. You know, economists are recalibrating their expectations now and investors are just nervous.

Unhappiness and frustration so far. I mean, many say these tariffs were unwarranted. Here's Prime Minister Anthony Albanese of Australia, which got the bare minimum 10%.

Britain was hit with the minimum 10% also, but the prime minister's office there expressed some relief that the country wasn't hit with 20% like the EU. Speaking of which, the European Commission president said Europe was open to negotiations but working on countermeasures in case the talks fail.

You know, President Trump has signaled that he's open to dealmaking, so many countries are taking these sweeping tariffs as kind of an opening salvo for negotiations. Others are looking at a range of options. You know, Japan, Brazil, China have suggested that tariffs break World Trade Organization rules.

Well, the Commerce Ministry issued a statement calling for the removal of these tariffs, and it says protectionism leads nowhere. China's been hammered by tariffs before and was frankly girding for this moment. The across-the-board tariff rate on Chinese imports to the U.S. now is about 54 percent. Trump was talking about 60 percent while he was campaigning, so it's not far off from that.

Professor Wu Xinbo of Fudan University in Shanghai thinks China will retaliate once the Trump tariffs take effect in a few days, and then hopefully at some point the two sides can talk.

But he thinks China can afford to punch back and then wait for a bit to see if Trump administration feels some heat from all these tariffs. Any sense of how damaging these tariffs will be to these countries? Yeah, I asked Jack Zhang about this. He's a professor at the University of Kansas, and he runs the trade war lab there. He says it kind of all depends.

I still hold out a sliver of hope because it depends on how much trade destruction happens, and that depends on how much retaliation we're going to see. You know, a lot of economists think these tariffs are going to be a big global shock anyway and could push, you know, many countries into recession. That is NPR's John Wirtz in Beijing.

You're welcome.

I used an appropriate channel to communicate sensitive information. It was permissible to do so. I didn't transfer any classified information.

Hey, Steve.

Well, no. Li Cheng's speech was wrapping up as Trump was getting started. So we haven't really seen a Chinese response to Trump's speech yet. The Chinese government responded, though, to the new tariffs by Trump. You know, he ratcheted tariffs on Chinese imports up to 20 percent yesterday.

They retaliated with their own tariffs on American chicken, wheat, corn, soybeans and such, blacklisted about 15 U.S. companies. The Chinese premier did not mention the U.S. by name in his address. It's the kind of document that's drafted over the course of months, doesn't change with headlines. But he did talk about, quote, an increasingly complex and severe external environment.

Now, those are words we've heard from Chinese leaders before. And analysts say they're basically code for this confrontational situation they have with the U.S. On that front, Li flagged some concerns that that environment external environment may actually have a greater impact on China going forward.

Rank-and-file delegates to the National People's Congress didn't seem too worried, though, about the tariffs.

Yeah, well, we had a chance to talk to a handful of delegates on their way into the opening session today. One of them was Tian Xuan, who's a professor of finance, part of the Shanghai delegation.

So he told me that China's basically in a better position to handle the tariffs now and to offset them than before. China has a huge domestic market, for instance. It's got comprehensive supply chains. He says the authorities are taking steps to stimulate domestic demand.

And he says the tariffs are also kind of a motivator for China to promote high tech and to expand relations with other countries. Economists, like you say, say the tariffs will probably start to hurt, especially if they keep going up. But these handpicked delegates to parliament were projecting confidence, as you might expect.

Well, the premier flagged the risks like that external environment, like sluggish domestic demand. But he also projected some confidence. He set a growth target of around 5 percent this year. It's about the same as last year.

And to get there, announced some fresh fiscal stimulus, a willingness to pursue more accommodative monetary policy to, you know, increase funding for industries of the future like quantum technology, AI, these type of things.

Well, one interesting thing we'll be looking out for is that the NPC may pass some legislation that would support and protect private businesses.

And that's pretty interesting because the leadership here seems to have renewed its interest in these companies as drivers of the economy and innovation, especially after the Chinese company DeepSeek released an advanced AI model in January that shocked the world. NPR's John Ruich with some insights from Beijing.

Yeah, DeepSeek is a spinoff from a Chinese hedge fund. It was established just two years ago in 2023. And it's based in the eastern city of Hangzhou, which is sort of a tech hub here in China.

And in a nutshell, what they did was hire a bunch of top-notch engineers and develop new algorithms, basically more efficient ways of training and running artificial intelligence with less computational power.

Well, the product is said to rival tools from competitors like OpenAI and Google in terms of what it can do, things like analyzing data and solving complex problems. It's impressed a lot of people. It rattled markets.

And what rattled the markets is the narrative, which comes with some caveats, that DeepSeek basically did it all cheaper, quicker, and with less powerful microprocessors than its big competitors.

Sure, the first one is around cost. DeepSeek says that it spent under $6 million to make this thing. That's tiny relative to the hundreds of millions of dollars that others are investing, even billions. But analysts say that that low figure is easy to misinterpret because it doesn't include, for instance, the cost of developing various versions from which this latest version was distilled.

So we really don't know what the total development cost was, how inexpensive it was. The second caveat is It has to do with the hardware, has to do with the chips that are critical to developing AI.

It's tricky. You know, the chips that really matter for AI are made by NVIDIA, which, by the way, took a massive tumble on the stock market after the deep-seek news. Back in 2022, NVIDIA were told they couldn't sell their best product to China. Of course, some of those chips were already there. Some may have leaked in.

But they made a slightly downgraded version at the time that they could sell to China legally. That's what DeepSeek says it used to train its latest model. Wow. The Biden administration subsequently decided that those chips were actually too powerful. They banned those ones from being sold to China, too. That was in 2023. A year had passed. The horse was sort of out of the barn.

Here's Gregory Allen, the director of the Wadwani AI Center at the Center for Strategic and International Studies in Washington.

So Alan says that era will end. Chinese companies like DeepSeq will run out of those near cutting edge chips pretty soon or sooner or later. They can't buy new ones because of the export ban. China doesn't have the capability to make anything like them. So yes, they did something pathbreaking here. But China faces a potential worsening computation constraint on the horizon.

You bet.

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These North Korean soldiers appear to be highly indoctrinated, pushing attacks even when it is clear that those attacks are futile. We also have reports of North Korean soldiers taking their own lives.

I'm a changed person, and it's primarily because it has changed me fundamentally in the way I go about life every day.

These North Korean soldiers appear to be highly indoctrinated, pushing attacks even when it is clear that those attacks are futile.

Well, the most common visa for working scientists is called the H-1B. It was created in 1990. The idea was to have a limited number of highly skilled foreign nationals working in the U.S. for up to six years. You have to have at least a bachelor's degree to qualify, but many of the scientists working under an H-1B actually have a Ph.D. And in the science world, this visa is a big deal.

It's sometimes called the secret weapon because it allows universities and tech companies to hire top talent from around the world.

So three months into his first term, President Trump spoke at Snap-on Tools in Kenosha, Wisconsin. He was standing in front of this flag made of red, white, and blue tools, and he unveiled a plan to restrict work visas, specifically the H-1B.

At the time, Trump issued several executive orders designed to make these visas harder to get. Then in 2020, he temporarily suspended the new H-1B visas. Now, the Biden administration came in, reversed a lot of those changes. But with Trump returning to office now, there could be another shift.

Trump has named Stephen Miller as his deputy chief of staff, and Miller was the main architect of the H-1B restrictions under the first Trump administration's. On the other hand, Elon Musk has been a supporter of the visas and he's pretty influential.

It means a lot of anxiety. High-level science is this increasingly international sport. So, for example, I talked to Leili Mordezavi. She's a brain scientist who was born in Iran and is now getting her doctorate at Stanford University. She almost didn't get to come because of what's often called the Trump administration's Muslim ban, which kept out Iranian citizens.

But Murtazavi was able to get a Canadian passport to attend Stanford.

Right. I mean, she's worried about getting a visa to work in the U.S. So she's looking at jobs in other countries like Canada. She's also looked at Oxford and University College London.

They're clearly worried. You have some tech firms like Box, you know, the cloud computing firm, that are making the case that H-1B visas are good for the U.S. economy. Universities are saying very little. I contacted at least half a dozen major research institutions over the past few weeks, and they pretty much declined to comment.

I also reached out to the Trump transition team, but I haven't heard back yet.

Always happy to be here.

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They stole our voice, they stole our future, and we do not accept that.

They stole our voice, they stole our future. And we do not accept that. We will stand here, how long it takes. I will protect my country, I will protect my voice. And I'll be glad if many, many people will join us.