John Avlon
Appearances
The Bulwark Podcast
Melissa Murray and John Avlon: The Dark Legal Clouds Ahead
Number one TV dealmaker.
The Bulwark Podcast
Melissa Murray and John Avlon: The Dark Legal Clouds Ahead
So talk about that a little bit for listeners who aren't familiar. The remit of the Solicitor General is what exactly? Yeah.
The Bulwark Podcast
Melissa Murray and John Avlon: The Dark Legal Clouds Ahead
Yeah, I just I'm kind of imagining a solicitor general, like speaking in truth social, you know, for presenting to this court, but that might work in this court, actually.
The Bulwark Podcast
Melissa Murray and John Avlon: The Dark Legal Clouds Ahead
I just meant the type of rhetoric.
The Bulwark Podcast
Melissa Murray and John Avlon: The Dark Legal Clouds Ahead
You know, the Trumpian bombast, you know, the writing it in digital crayon, you know, they're at least a handful of justices.
The Bulwark Podcast
Melissa Murray and John Avlon: The Dark Legal Clouds Ahead
This takes us to the game I wanted to play with you, since you're monitoring the court kind of briefs and the Q&As that these justices are asking closer than I am. We saw the 5-4 ruling with regards to New York, and I don't really want to get into that, because to be honest, I just don't care that much about the New York case at this point.
The Bulwark Podcast
Melissa Murray and John Avlon: The Dark Legal Clouds Ahead
What if I had three jobs?
The Bulwark Podcast
Melissa Murray and John Avlon: The Dark Legal Clouds Ahead
But I am interested in what, if we learned anything about how these justices are going to act, when being put in a bad place by Donald Trump. Let's put it that way. Over the next four years, where they have to decide whether they're siding, where it's not a constitutional question really, but it's a question of whether they're siding with Donald Trump.
The Bulwark Podcast
Melissa Murray and John Avlon: The Dark Legal Clouds Ahead
Well, it is a constitutional question where they're forced to choose whether they're siding with Trump or the law. And I'm wondering, I would like for you to rank the six conservative justices as to who you think is the most likely to stand in the breach in defense of the republic if it becomes necessary to the least likely. Yeah.
The Bulwark Podcast
Melissa Murray and John Avlon: The Dark Legal Clouds Ahead
Yeah, use the Pam Bondi tricks here. You can talk about the California fires and how sad you're feeling for all the victims and anything to run the clock.
The Bulwark Podcast
Melissa Murray and John Avlon: The Dark Legal Clouds Ahead
The New York case you're talking about.
The Bulwark Podcast
Melissa Murray and John Avlon: The Dark Legal Clouds Ahead
Yeah. I'd maybe throw Kevin on the mix just because your point about how he likes to be liked. You don't think that.
The Bulwark Podcast
Melissa Murray and John Avlon: The Dark Legal Clouds Ahead
I don't know. I just think that Kavanaugh says sometimes, this is a freebie. Donald Trump will like me if I go on the side of the floor here. But, you know, is he calculating? Might he make a different calculation at a different time? You don't think so?
The Bulwark Podcast
Melissa Murray and John Avlon: The Dark Legal Clouds Ahead
What if I once saw Bigfoot?
The Bulwark Podcast
Melissa Murray and John Avlon: The Dark Legal Clouds Ahead
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The Bulwark Podcast
Melissa Murray and John Avlon: The Dark Legal Clouds Ahead
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The Bulwark Podcast
Melissa Murray and John Avlon: The Dark Legal Clouds Ahead
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The Bulwark Podcast
Melissa Murray and John Avlon: The Dark Legal Clouds Ahead
Protect what matters most in minutes at trustandwill.com slash the bulwark and get 10% off plus free shipping. That's 10% off and free shipping at trustandwill.com slash the bulwark. Another thing you guys, you've been covering that I have been unable to get to, but is absolutely worth focusing on is really quick. There's North Carolina Supreme Court steal, really.
The Bulwark Podcast
Melissa Murray and John Avlon: The Dark Legal Clouds Ahead
I don't know what else to call it. Alison Riggs is a Democrat, won by 734 votes in the Supreme Court election this past November. Jefferson Griffin is a Republican. He's challenged 60,000 votes. What's the latest on that and how serious are your concerns that that might be an effective challenge or steal, however you want to call it, whatever you want to call it?
The Bulwark Podcast
Melissa Murray and John Avlon: The Dark Legal Clouds Ahead
It's an SAE at Ole Miss, maybe. Jefferson Griffin. Yeah.
The Bulwark Podcast
Melissa Murray and John Avlon: The Dark Legal Clouds Ahead
Yeah, we're going to keep monitoring this one. I was glad you guys have been covering it. DeMarco Elias has been on this as well. So we'll put some resources on that in the show notes for anybody who's in North Carolina and wants to send a message to some of their elected officials.
The Bulwark Podcast
Melissa Murray and John Avlon: The Dark Legal Clouds Ahead
At least, I guess North Carolina, despite the fact that Donald Trump won, a lot of Democrats did win down ballot, maybe thanks to porn shop Mark Robinson certainly gave us an assist on that.
The Bulwark Podcast
Melissa Murray and John Avlon: The Dark Legal Clouds Ahead
I will say to your point on the gerrymandering, the North Carolina one, well, we can do a whole other podcast on gerrymandering. I'm a little less up in arms about it than maybe some in the democracy movement because I think we're gerrymandering ourselves in a lot of ways. But the North Carolina gerrymander is insane.
The Bulwark Podcast
Melissa Murray and John Avlon: The Dark Legal Clouds Ahead
It's 10 Republicans and four Democrats in Congress in North Carolina in a state where The Democrat won the governor's race. It's a ludicrous breakdown.
The Bulwark Podcast
Melissa Murray and John Avlon: The Dark Legal Clouds Ahead
Final thing. You were on with Dan Pfeiffer. You were guest hosting over on, what's that other podcast called? I don't know. Whatever. We'll try to think about it. But you were guest hosting over there.
The Bulwark Podcast
Melissa Murray and John Avlon: The Dark Legal Clouds Ahead
And at the end of it, you were like, I want to get out of my legal. Out of my box. Yeah, out of my legal box, I want to have some hot takes about the election. And I loved your hot take. So I want to hear what you think about what the Democrats could learn from 2024.
The Bulwark Podcast
Melissa Murray and John Avlon: The Dark Legal Clouds Ahead
I do feel like in 2016, there was all this talk about kind of gender after that Hillary lost, and that's gotten lost here with Kamala. And part of that, I think, is there's a reason for that, which is that there was just such a uniform move towards Trump. But at other times, I sometimes think maybe I'm I'm not considering other, you know, perspectives of people with other experience than me.
The Bulwark Podcast
Melissa Murray and John Avlon: The Dark Legal Clouds Ahead
Pam Bondi definitely exists in the context of which we live and what came before us. That is true. She did not.
The Bulwark Podcast
Melissa Murray and John Avlon: The Dark Legal Clouds Ahead
So I want, I want to hear your hot take on both, you know, the kind of race and gender question, but also what you were talking to Dan about, about democratic management of blue States.
The Bulwark Podcast
Melissa Murray and John Avlon: The Dark Legal Clouds Ahead
But I think... And I just think my one thing on this, just so we can get to the other thing, is just that... This whole conversation afterwards is like, was she, you know, the manosphere and was she tough enough and all this? And I'm like, Kamala kicked his ass in the debate. Yeah, repeatedly. Like, stood right next to him. He was scared to look at her.
The Bulwark Podcast
Melissa Murray and John Avlon: The Dark Legal Clouds Ahead
Now that's what I'm talking about.
The Bulwark Podcast
Melissa Murray and John Avlon: The Dark Legal Clouds Ahead
Yeah. And still, and even still, after that, the one time they stood next to each other, like her being clearly the alpha in the situation, there was still like this sense broadly. It's like, well, I don't know. You know, we need somebody tough like Trump. Yeah. And I just, I think that's, that was a little bit of a tell for me. Anyway, that's my one thought on that item.
The Bulwark Podcast
Melissa Murray and John Avlon: The Dark Legal Clouds Ahead
We are burdened by what has been. Pam Bondi was unburdened, though, I think, based on the hearing. And that's kind of what I wanted to get at. I want to play a clip. There was a little bit of an Abbott and Costello thing at this hearing yesterday with everybody asking a similar type thing to what Adam Schiff did. But I thought that Adam Schiff kind of
The Bulwark Podcast
Melissa Murray and John Avlon: The Dark Legal Clouds Ahead
encapsulated the major question for Pam Bondi in the challenge here. So I want to listen to that and talk about it.
The Bulwark Podcast
Melissa Murray and John Avlon: The Dark Legal Clouds Ahead
I'm snapping over here. Amen. I love every bit of that take. I was in Medellin a couple years ago, Columbia, and I was on the subway, and I was like, this subway is great.
The Bulwark Podcast
Melissa Murray and John Avlon: The Dark Legal Clouds Ahead
And some of that's money, and I get that investment and all that, but taxes are pretty high in New York City and L.A., and some of this money is being wasted and not being used to actually make people's lives better.
The Bulwark Podcast
Melissa Murray and John Avlon: The Dark Legal Clouds Ahead
Melissa Murray, I love that. Thank you for coming on the pod. Let's do it again soon sometime. People should go listen to Strict Scrutiny if they want to get nerdy on legal stuff.
The Bulwark Podcast
Melissa Murray and John Avlon: The Dark Legal Clouds Ahead
I'm on board with that.
The Bulwark Podcast
Melissa Murray and John Avlon: The Dark Legal Clouds Ahead
Check out Strict Scrutiny.
The Bulwark Podcast
Melissa Murray and John Avlon: The Dark Legal Clouds Ahead
Nerdy sexy. Nerdy sexy. I'll get the order right. Check out Strict Scrutiny. It's nerdy. It's sexy. It's Melissa Murray. Up next, John Evelyn.
The Bulwark Podcast
Melissa Murray and John Avlon: The Dark Legal Clouds Ahead
all right we are back with john avalon author journalist recent congressional candidate we'll get to that in a second uh he's also host of the new bulwark podcast how to fix it what's going on man hey man it's good to talk to you as always good to talk to you too i want to get to the new pod i want to do just briefly on some uh run for something lessons but first we got some news on the hill that i really wanted to pick your brain about uh
The Bulwark Podcast
Melissa Murray and John Avlon: The Dark Legal Clouds Ahead
Mike Turner, who is the chairman of the Intelligence Committee or was set to be the chairman of the Intelligence Committee, has been purged by Trump and Mike Johnson. Mike Johnson says that apparently Trump asked him to get rid of Turner. This might seem like kind of.
The Bulwark Podcast
Melissa Murray and John Avlon: The Dark Legal Clouds Ahead
inside baseball congressional news but to me it is very ominous because mike turner is a strong national security hawk pro-ukraine and it seems to me to signal that they don't want anybody you know in these top intel you know top secret meetings you know pushing back on tulsi or pushing back on whatever it is that trump is trying to to rationalize so i don't know pretty ominous for me wondering if you had thoughts on it
The Bulwark Podcast
Melissa Murray and John Avlon: The Dark Legal Clouds Ahead
It is ominous to anyone paying attention. Don't dismiss this as some kind of inside baseball house politics. This is ominous on three different levels. First, it shows a complete destruction of the separation of powers as the founders intended, because Congress, the Speaker of the House, is acting like a willing laptop for the incoming White House.
The Bulwark Podcast
Melissa Murray and John Avlon: The Dark Legal Clouds Ahead
And for the President of the United States to get involved with a committee chairmanship means this is a priority for him, who is not traditionally focused on the details of governing. Right.
The Bulwark Podcast
Melissa Murray and John Avlon: The Dark Legal Clouds Ahead
So all of a sudden you're removing a strong conservative who happens to be strong on national security by also giving blowing up the lie that a lot of Republicans were telling themselves that this would be some kind of new Trump with a bigger tent. And we wouldn't actually write how many times in history do we need to learn that people who do what they say they're going to do?
The Bulwark Podcast
Melissa Murray and John Avlon: The Dark Legal Clouds Ahead
He is going to commit himself to a what seems to be a neo isolationist foreign policy that is weak on autocrats around the world. And one of the stakes of this election, as many of us were making the case, is the fate of Ukraine.
The Bulwark Podcast
Melissa Murray and John Avlon: The Dark Legal Clouds Ahead
is the support for our fellow democracies against autocratic aggression and the removal of turner is a quite about a quashing of dissent something we've seen a lot of this falling in line it shows that there's a a voluntary sort of self-castration of the congressional branch out of fealty this lapdog impulse in the house of representatives even by the speaker of the house and it says very bad things about the united states laying claim to any credible
The Bulwark Podcast
Melissa Murray and John Avlon: The Dark Legal Clouds Ahead
vision of remaining the leader of the free world, because that's not what Donald Trump is interested in. And kneecapping Mike Turner is parcel of that. So watch out, pay attention.
The Bulwark Podcast
Melissa Murray and John Avlon: The Dark Legal Clouds Ahead
Also, it shows that you don't actually get anything in the end for sucking up to Trump, as long as you want to do one thing that is against Trump's interest. Because Mike Turner, it wasn't exactly Adam Kinzinger over there on the Hill. You know, I mean, he maintained his views on national security. But, you know, he didn't vote for impeachment. He voted for Trump.
The Bulwark Podcast
Melissa Murray and John Avlon: The Dark Legal Clouds Ahead
He surrogates for Trump sometimes on TV. So what was his reward for all that? Nada.
The Bulwark Podcast
Melissa Murray and John Avlon: The Dark Legal Clouds Ahead
That's exactly right. This is about fealty. This is about walking in lockstep. And look, you can try to say, you know, I'll give Trump administration one credit for the Abraham Accords, let's say. There are always good things that can come about.
The Bulwark Podcast
Melissa Murray and John Avlon: The Dark Legal Clouds Ahead
But this persistent focus on kneecapping strong foreign policy, traditional, what had been bipartisan American foreign policy, and knocking out one of their own at the incoming president's behest, that is sinister. And if you don't think so, you're probably not paying attention.
The Bulwark Podcast
Melissa Murray and John Avlon: The Dark Legal Clouds Ahead
I'm going to have more on this over on YouTube. I've got the ranking Dem member on that committee, Jim Himes. Couldn't get to him this morning, but I think we're going to talk this afternoon. So folks can check it out on our YouTube feed. I want to get also your take on the Biden farewell. Daily listeners of the podcast will probably know that I was not overcome with warm feelings.
The Bulwark Podcast
Melissa Murray and John Avlon: The Dark Legal Clouds Ahead
when it came to this farewell. And I really just had to turn it off, actually, and read it on my phone. But you, as maybe somebody that has a little bit more distance or a little bit more of a historical view, having been a speechwriter, having written about this, wondering what your thoughts were on his speech last night.
The Bulwark Podcast
Melissa Murray and John Avlon: The Dark Legal Clouds Ahead
Yeah, I thought it was a strong farewell address that will stand the test of time. And I do view it through a historic prism. Don't get caught up in the politics of the moment for things like this. You're writing for posterity. And I wrote a book on George Washington's farewell address. So I see it through that prism as well.
The Bulwark Podcast
Melissa Murray and John Avlon: The Dark Legal Clouds Ahead
George Washington started off an occasional tradition of the most powerful farewell addresses being focused on warnings. which is not typically the thing you think of with a farewell address. Usually they're gonna take a valedictory, a victory lap and ride off onto the sunset.
The Bulwark Podcast
Melissa Murray and John Avlon: The Dark Legal Clouds Ahead
Washington warned primarily about the dangers of what we would call hyper-partisanship, also excessive debt and foreign interference in our elections, all things we're dealing with today. Probably the second most famous farewell address is Eisenhower, where he warns about the rise of the military industrial complex. And so if you look at this speech,
The Bulwark Podcast
Melissa Murray and John Avlon: The Dark Legal Clouds Ahead
Ronnie, you got Ronnie defining shiny city on the hill. Throw him in there, too.
The Bulwark Podcast
Melissa Murray and John Avlon: The Dark Legal Clouds Ahead
Well, Ron Reagan's written by Peggy Noonan, as I understand, is a beautiful farewell address. And it is a kind of touchstone document, but it is a love letter to a certain kind to his vision of America. It's not a warning. And that's the tradition I would put this in. Biden gave a very full throated warning about the rise of a new oligarchy.
The Bulwark Podcast
Melissa Murray and John Avlon: The Dark Legal Clouds Ahead
rooted in technology that is undermining our ability to reason together as a democracy. He did not pull punches. It was stark, especially by any historical standard. And he also talked about, look, you know, we've dealt with oligarchies in the past. They can't undermine not just democracies, but any form of government.
The Bulwark Podcast
Melissa Murray and John Avlon: The Dark Legal Clouds Ahead
The founders were incredibly concerned about deep disparities between the super rich and the working poor, because that's how governments have been stabilized throughout human history. And what he said is, look, we just made the robber barons, you know, have the laws that apply to everybody else apply to them.
The Bulwark Podcast
Melissa Murray and John Avlon: The Dark Legal Clouds Ahead
And it led to the greatest economic period in our history and the growth of the great American middle class, which I think Biden does deserve a lot of credit for and will receive more in the eyes of history than maybe from you.
The Bulwark Podcast
Melissa Murray and John Avlon: The Dark Legal Clouds Ahead
Look, I give credit. The economy is fine. The economy is good. The things that I worry about in the eyes of history is that the thing we'll be a member for is just the disastrous decision that allowed us, that got us to this place where Donald Trump is coming back in the office. And so, you know, everything else kind of gets overshadowed by that a little bit. The CHIPS Act.
The Bulwark Podcast
Melissa Murray and John Avlon: The Dark Legal Clouds Ahead
I don't know if they're going to be talking about the CHIPS Act in 2020.
The Bulwark Podcast
Melissa Murray and John Avlon: The Dark Legal Clouds Ahead
Look, obviously, you know, if you see the pantheon of presidents, he's going to be like Benjamin Harrison, sort of sandwiched between two Trumps and Harrison's class, the guys, Grover Cleveland. I will history nerd with you all day long.
The Bulwark Podcast
Melissa Murray and John Avlon: The Dark Legal Clouds Ahead
But, you know, he did between the infrastructure bill and the CHIPS Act and 300 bipartisan bills and the climate change things he got passed probably did more in the fullness of time to help rebuild the middle class. Now, that could easily get derailed. He has certainly problems with perceptions of vigor, which reminds us how much politics is on the strength, weakness, access.
The Bulwark Podcast
Melissa Murray and John Avlon: The Dark Legal Clouds Ahead
But if you look at his economic record, job growth, wage growth, certainly stock market, although that was not his focus. I think one of the things people will puzzle over is that there was such disquiet. I think the deal is, is that the affordability crisis, the middle class squeeze that's been going on for decades was really insulted by inflation. And that's a lesson Democrats learned.
The Bulwark Podcast
Melissa Murray and John Avlon: The Dark Legal Clouds Ahead
One of many lessons Democrats need to keep in mind going forward. But it was a strong speech and one worth reading, not necessarily listening to if you can't handle the halting time.
The Bulwark Podcast
Melissa Murray and John Avlon: The Dark Legal Clouds Ahead
One worth reading. That's true. If people can read in the future, I don't know, after TikTok and Redbook. Yeah, if people can read, then I think I'll be in better shape. If they can only watch short form video, I don't think it will probably age that well. One last thing on the Biden speech that struck me. Just this focus on the tech oligarchs and the modern day robber barons. Yeah.
The Bulwark Podcast
Melissa Murray and John Avlon: The Dark Legal Clouds Ahead
All of that has congealed in the last month. It's intriguing to do a speech that is really quite different from what the speech would have looked like in any different moment of his presidency. That it is, you know, based upon just how quickly, you know, these...
The Bulwark Podcast
Melissa Murray and John Avlon: The Dark Legal Clouds Ahead
tech billionaires have cozied up to trump and gotten their claws in our government when he was a candidate he wasn't really talking about this kamala didn't really talk about this that much and it's just pretty striking that you're using your farewell address to to address something that is really only come into focus in the last month i don't know i don't know what you think about that
The Bulwark Podcast
Melissa Murray and John Avlon: The Dark Legal Clouds Ahead
Well, I think that shows how urgent it is, but I think it is about tectonic plates as well as a reaction to sort of the lining up to kiss the ring with like a lot of CEOs have convinced themselves are basically a form of fiduciary duty to their shareholders that, you know, Trump is transactional. If people kiss the ring, maybe you get beneficial.
The Bulwark Podcast
Melissa Murray and John Avlon: The Dark Legal Clouds Ahead
And by the way, that's not the way democracy traditionally works, certainly here in America. The larger issue, I mean, he had a very pointed paragraph about the free press.
The Bulwark Podcast
Melissa Murray and John Avlon: The Dark Legal Clouds Ahead
about the way that the disinformation and misinformation is free flowing through these social medias that he referenced Zuckerberg's recent decision obliquely to sort of pull the goalie when it comes to fact checkers and the way that that spells dangerous things for our democracy and probably made a nod to some of the work that Jonathan Haidt's been doing about protecting our kids from these algorithms as well.
The Bulwark Podcast
Melissa Murray and John Avlon: The Dark Legal Clouds Ahead
So I don't think it was just sort of, you know, short-term sour grapes about the shows of fealty we're seeing. I think it's about something deeper. And I think in Kamala's case, look, she's from the Bay Area. She, I think, was not full-throated enough, but trying to say that, look, the extent this administration has not been pro-technology, she comes from a different perspective.
The Bulwark Podcast
Melissa Murray and John Avlon: The Dark Legal Clouds Ahead
But obviously all that's academic at the moment.
The Bulwark Podcast
Melissa Murray and John Avlon: The Dark Legal Clouds Ahead
Here's a really quick academic item on running for office. One thing I'm going to be urging people, including you, I'm not putting you on the spot right now. You know, it's still only two months.
The Bulwark Podcast
Melissa Murray and John Avlon: The Dark Legal Clouds Ahead
So there's a good set of questions that came after that. But the problem was that Pam Bondi just sort of refused the premise, right? She acted as if, you know, Bill Barr and Jeff Sessions didn't exist, right? And so we didn't ever get there. Wow.
The Bulwark Podcast
Melissa Murray and John Avlon: The Dark Legal Clouds Ahead
Is that if you wanted to run for office, if you got heterodox views on things, if you want to run for office as a Democrat and you got heterodox views on things, I should say, 2026 is probably going to be a good time to run. Maybe not, but if you're, you know, making a bet.
The Bulwark Podcast
Melissa Murray and John Avlon: The Dark Legal Clouds Ahead
If you're putting your chips down, I would make a bet that Donald Trump does not wear that well back in the White House and that his first midterm will be as disastrous as the last midterm is. And it's at these moments when kind of new voices can emerge.
The Bulwark Podcast
Melissa Murray and John Avlon: The Dark Legal Clouds Ahead
And so I'm wondering if you, A, agree with that, and B, if so, if there are any lessons you'd like to share for people that might be thinking about that.
The Bulwark Podcast
Melissa Murray and John Avlon: The Dark Legal Clouds Ahead
I do agree with that. I think now's the time for citizens to step up and sort of strengthen their civic backbone and get in the arena. That's what I did earlier this year because I cared so much about the stakes of this race that I didn't feel like talking about it on TV. I'm glad I ran. I do think the pendulum is going to swing back.
The Bulwark Podcast
Melissa Murray and John Avlon: The Dark Legal Clouds Ahead
I would say to folks who want to run, whether it's for Congress or any local, run. Democracy depends on people who show up. And there are a lot of disincentives to run that we've set up. But people should not just talk about it or listen about it. They should do something about it.
The Bulwark Podcast
Melissa Murray and John Avlon: The Dark Legal Clouds Ahead
And I think particularly, I think liberals are about to fall in love with federalism and see the wisdom of those structures. And I think that is yet another safety valve the founders put in place that's worth leaning into. I would say for my own learnings, if you feel the call, do it. Know that it's going to be difficult.
The Bulwark Podcast
Melissa Murray and John Avlon: The Dark Legal Clouds Ahead
It's difficult on families and finances and all those things, but it's the right thing to do. You know, we had a big win, a 40 point win in the primary against a self-funded candidate. And I think that showed that, you know, in primaries, the Democratic Party, there is a pragmatism. You know, they understand the importance of heterodox views, particularly if you're running in a purple district.
The Bulwark Podcast
Melissa Murray and John Avlon: The Dark Legal Clouds Ahead
I do think often these things are the function of wave elections, particularly if you're a challenger. I think Democrats need especially to focus on building bridges. I've always believed deeply in sort of, you know, the building coalition between the center-right and the center-left, reaching out to moderates, independents.
The Bulwark Podcast
Melissa Murray and John Avlon: The Dark Legal Clouds Ahead
That's what Democrats uniquely need to do because there's always, you know, 50% more self-identified conservatives than liberals in our country. I think that this is a moment where there's going to be a lot of impulses for people to lean back. They're going to say, oh, I need a mental health break. In effect, that's an ostrich option. I don't think that's sufficient.
The Bulwark Podcast
Melissa Murray and John Avlon: The Dark Legal Clouds Ahead
It doesn't mean you need to go crazy every day and have the Trump presidency ruin your quality of life. You know, there are opportunities in every environment. The core of my campaign was rebuild the middle, right? We got to rebuild the middle of our politics, rebuild the middle of our economy. Those two things are connected.
The Bulwark Podcast
Melissa Murray and John Avlon: The Dark Legal Clouds Ahead
We hollowed out the middle of our politics at the same time we hollowed out the middle of our economy. My unified field theory of sort of what's been happening is the hollowing out of the middle class. The squeeze of the middle class has been driving the anger and disaffection.
The Bulwark Podcast
Melissa Murray and John Avlon: The Dark Legal Clouds Ahead
And Republicans have benefited, it's a little bit of an arsonist being a firefighter, from some of the policies they put in place that hollowed out a lot of communities. Democrats need to focus on getting the big things right, public safety, border security, but rebuilding middle class economic security.
The Bulwark Podcast
Melissa Murray and John Avlon: The Dark Legal Clouds Ahead
And I think Democrats also need to realize how much of politics, I think fundamentally on a guttural level, operates on a strength-weakness axis. And Democrats need to be seen as stronger. And reformers need to be seen as stronger. Democrats cannot be the party that defends the status quo. I've never thought in our recent polarization that the center is the status quo position.
The Bulwark Podcast
Melissa Murray and John Avlon: The Dark Legal Clouds Ahead
I think it's the insurgent position, but it's got to act like it. And I think you need to see reform as something rebellious. Defending our democracy is something rebellious. and really build a movement where there hasn't been that energy in the past. And if Democrats aren't seen as the party of reform, they're going to keep getting their ass handed to them.
The Bulwark Podcast
Melissa Murray and John Avlon: The Dark Legal Clouds Ahead
No doubt. We'll be spending many more hours on that topic in the coming year. Lastly, we're pumped that you're in the family. We have a new pod from you here at The Bulwark called How to Fix It. You've had a couple of episodes. You talked to Tom Swasey, a Democrat from New York on partisan gridlock, Richard Haass on civics. At the end, we kind of had a test run last year.
The Bulwark Podcast
Melissa Murray and John Avlon: The Dark Legal Clouds Ahead
And you had one episode with my man Ryan Holiday on lessons from the Stoics. It was really good. Talk to folks about what you want to do with this pod and what you got coming down the pike.
The Bulwark Podcast
Melissa Murray and John Avlon: The Dark Legal Clouds Ahead
Yeah, man. It's something that we started during the late days of the campaign and got a great response on. The response has been really phenomenal. The core idea, and this stems out of a longstanding frustration on my part as a journalist when I was at CNN, is we need to talk more about solutions and not just fixate on problems. Shockingly, there's white space here.
The Bulwark Podcast
Melissa Murray and John Avlon: The Dark Legal Clouds Ahead
Not a lot of podcasts are focused on finding solutions.
The Bulwark Podcast
Melissa Murray and John Avlon: The Dark Legal Clouds Ahead
There are a lot of problems out there for us to talk about.
The Bulwark Podcast
Melissa Murray and John Avlon: The Dark Legal Clouds Ahead
Yeah, we can do that all day long and people do, but really having focused conversations on how can we fix that in ways that aren't just play to the base partisan ideas, but ideas that could get bipartisan support. That's the focus of the podcast, of how to fix it. That I think is something that's hopeful for people. It's empowering for people.
The Bulwark Podcast
Melissa Murray and John Avlon: The Dark Legal Clouds Ahead
If we only talk about our problems, no wonder if citizens feel sort of disempowered and dismayed. If we talk to issue experts about, hey, we can solve this together, not be in pie in the sky that it's going to be easy. But there are areas that can find support from the center right and center left together. And that's that's the focus. And and so, as you say, we've talked about civics education.
The Bulwark Podcast
Melissa Murray and John Avlon: The Dark Legal Clouds Ahead
We talked to Tom Suozzi, who said, here's some areas where Democrats might be able to work with an incoming Republican administration. And we'll get really focused. But I think it's important just to lay down a marker that we're not as divided as we seem and that we can solve problems if we reason together. And that is as much as anything is a flag we need to fly right now.
The Bulwark Podcast
Melissa Murray and John Avlon: The Dark Legal Clouds Ahead
I hope you're correct. I'm not sure that you're correct, that we are capable. But I hope you're correct. And I'm excited for people. It's also good for people to take an hour away from all this. Actually, think through it. Use your brain. Think through problems. I think that is healthy. I think that there's a demand for that. So I hope people enjoyed the pod. Excited that we're welcoming you.
The Bulwark Podcast
Melissa Murray and John Avlon: The Dark Legal Clouds Ahead
As we say, farewell to Joe Biden. Thanks so much, John. Anytime, Tim. Thanks, brother. Be well. Everybody else, we'll be back here tomorrow for a Friday edition of the podcast. Come on down. Peace.
The Bulwark Podcast
Melissa Murray and John Avlon: The Dark Legal Clouds Ahead
The Bulwark Podcast is produced by Katie Cooper with audio engineering and editing by Jason Brough.
The Bulwark Podcast
Melissa Murray and John Avlon: The Dark Legal Clouds Ahead
Hello and welcome to the Bullard Podcast. I'm your host, Tim Miller. We've got a double today. We've got a bonus segment and segment two with John Avalon, who's got a new podcast with us. So stick around for that. But first, she's a law professor at NYU, co-host of Strict Scrutiny, and a contributor on MSNBC, occasionally across from me. It's Melissa Murray. How are you doing?
The Bulwark Podcast
Melissa Murray and John Avlon: The Dark Legal Clouds Ahead
She hadn't heard of the Raffensperger call? She was like, I was aware this existed, but I don't I don't actually I don't think I've actually seen the transcripts or something.
The Bulwark Podcast
Melissa Murray and John Avlon: The Dark Legal Clouds Ahead
I think that was the frustrating part for me. Especially because you just kept going round and round in this same thing that we're talking about, right? Where there'd be legit questions to her, like in the situation that Bill Barr was in, in the situation that Jeff Sessions was in, would you do what they did, right? And stand up to Trump?
The Bulwark Podcast
Melissa Murray and John Avlon: The Dark Legal Clouds Ahead
And she wouldn't even acknowledge the premise of the question, right? Like that this had happened. Yeah. We are living in this imaginary world where who knows what Trump might do. And I don't need to answer your hypotheticals because why would we assume that Trump might pressure me to do something illegal, right? And so, you know, the Democrats kept pushing on that.
The Bulwark Podcast
Melissa Murray and John Avlon: The Dark Legal Clouds Ahead
And then the Republicans would say they had TDS. And then she would pretend like she was a baby born yesterday. And I think that you're right. And she's going to end up being confirmed. But I just wonder, there certainly wasn't anything there that assuaged my concerns that she would actually stand up to Trump. I don't know how you felt about that.
The Bulwark Podcast
Melissa Murray and John Avlon: The Dark Legal Clouds Ahead
Hi, thanks for having me. First time, welcome to the Bullard Podcast. There's a hazing ritual.
The Bulwark Podcast
Melissa Murray and John Avlon: The Dark Legal Clouds Ahead
We have to start with Pam Bondi, though. As somebody who's been kind of a watcher of her and of the MAGA legal world, I just was wondering just your broadest thoughts on her nomination as Attorney General.
The Bulwark Podcast
Melissa Murray and John Avlon: The Dark Legal Clouds Ahead
I was going to ask you about Comstock next. What else concerns you the most thinking about Bondi just substantively as far as her potential powers at the Justice Department? I mean, like Obergefell, certainly anything is on the table these days. I don't want to say it's a 0% chance, but to me that's lower down the list of my concerns. I think Comstock's a legit concern.
The Bulwark Podcast
Melissa Murray and John Avlon: The Dark Legal Clouds Ahead
What are some specific things that you think that she might be doing at the Justice Department that has your warning flare up?
The Bulwark Podcast
Melissa Murray and John Avlon: The Dark Legal Clouds Ahead
Yeah, I want to get to that next.
The Bulwark Podcast
Melissa Murray and John Avlon: The Dark Legal Clouds Ahead
Yeah, that worries me about the cash thing too, right? Because it's one thing to be like, oh, well, at one point she said, I don't think he actually had an enemies list. I think you're referring to something he said on a podcast.
The Bulwark Podcast
Melissa Murray and John Avlon: The Dark Legal Clouds Ahead
It was in the book. It was a whole addendum. It was an addendum to the book. It was an actual list.
The Bulwark Podcast
Melissa Murray and John Avlon: The Dark Legal Clouds Ahead
Yeah, so luckily I wasn't on there. But a lengthy list of friends of the pod were on there. And so like, you know, to say that, leads me to believe that this is the type of person that if cash is hassling people, you know, using the power of the FBI to go after people without subpoenas or just using the investigative power to go after people, uh,
The Bulwark Podcast
Melissa Murray and John Avlon: The Dark Legal Clouds Ahead
Does this seem like a person that's going to intervene in that or that's going to put her head in the sand and be like, well, you know, who knows what's going on over there? I'll worry about it when it comes to me.
The Bulwark Podcast
Melissa Murray and John Avlon: The Dark Legal Clouds Ahead
That's what it seems like to me.
The Bulwark Podcast
Melissa Murray and John Avlon: The Dark Legal Clouds Ahead
All right. Well, more Bondi today. We'll keep an eye on it. You mentioned John Sauer. I was listening to... your pod from this week at Strict Scrutiny. I can tell you, I've done no coverage of the Solicitor General nominee here at the Bulwark. A lot of bad nominees, you know, so there's only so much time in the day.
The Bulwark Podcast
Melissa Murray and John Avlon: The Dark Legal Clouds Ahead
But you guys had me cackling, kind of just sort of reviewing some of the briefs that he put forth and the absurdity of this person being the Solicitor General. So I just kind of want to put a quarter in the machine and let you roll on John Sauer as Solicitor General.
The Bulwark Podcast
Melissa Murray and John Avlon: The Dark Legal Clouds Ahead
What if I have lots of forms?