Joel Salatin
Appearances
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
539. The Best Argument Against Veganism | Joel Salatin
So I call this diaper grass, teenage grass, and nursing home grass, okay, just to help. And so if you want to accumulate the most biomass possible, you want to let it go through that blaze of growth.
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
539. The Best Argument Against Veganism | Joel Salatin
So the whole idea of controlled grazing is to hit it at the second break point, not this break point, not this point down here, when it's long enough to graze, but it hasn't gone through this teenage growth spurt.
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
539. The Best Argument Against Veganism | Joel Salatin
So that's what the electric fence becomes, then a steering wheel, an accelerator, and a brake on the four-legged sauerkraut pruner to be able to steer them around the landscape to catch this second growth point all the time. And suddenly what happens is by letting the grass go through there, you get a completely different energy flow Because now the grass is always at energy equilibrium.
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
539. The Best Argument Against Veganism | Joel Salatin
What do you mean by energy equilibrium? What I mean is when the forage gets pruned or grazed, I use the word pruning because grazing is now, that's a bad word. Okay. So pruning, all right? When it gets pruned, if it gets pruned too frequently, you actually weaken the plant. And so by only allowing, by controlling when the pruner can prune strategically,
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
539. The Best Argument Against Veganism | Joel Salatin
you allow that plant to actually accumulate energy and vibrancy and flourish, just like pruning a vineyard or an apple tree or anything else. And so, for example, in our area, the average grass— Right, so the optimal amount of grazing in a grassland is not zero. No. So rather than grazing 20 times this long, we're grazing six times this long, for example.
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
539. The Best Argument Against Veganism | Joel Salatin
So five times the efficiency. Yeah, right.
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
539. The Best Argument Against Veganism | Joel Salatin
Because they think it's too hard to move cows. Yeah, well, fair enough. They're big. And they think it's too hard to move cows. Well, I mean, we have 1,000 heads, so we're not a backyard operation by any means. But most people—because it's new. It's just different. It's new. It's not what Grandpa— Yeah, yeah, fair enough.
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
539. The Best Argument Against Veganism | Joel Salatin
And you've got to realize that, you know, with America's average farmer being 60 years old, the average farmer is still in Grandpa's paradigm— When land was cheap, fuel was cheap, and it was still in this 1950s paradigm, when we talk about— The average farmer is 60. Is 60 years old, which means in the next 15 years, half of all America's agriculture equity is going to change hands.
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
539. The Best Argument Against Veganism | Joel Salatin
So that means there's a time for a potential transformation there. Exactly. Yeah, or catastrophic failure. Yes, yes. And that level of agrarian equity transfer has never happened that fast in any civilization in history except in conquest. You know, the Huns come out and run over Rome or whatever. Now, I'm not saying we're getting ready to have conquest.
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
539. The Best Argument Against Veganism | Joel Salatin
I am suggesting that we're in a guinea pig time here if we can pull this off at peace and have this level of transfer. So obviously the question is, well, who's gonna control this land in 15 years? Is it BlackRock? Is it Bill Gates? Is it to Chinese? Is it, you know, what is it? And that's why I'm a bit on a tear to try to germinate young farmers. So to speak.
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
539. The Best Argument Against Veganism | Joel Salatin
young farmers to jump on this because I think we're in an unprecedented time of opportunity in farming because so much is going to become available.
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
539. The Best Argument Against Veganism | Joel Salatin
Yeah, so some of the gullies were on gentle land, you know, pasture land. And those, we actually built, dug ponds, built ponds in low ground and hauled the silt, all that silt that had accumulated down in the ground valley, we hauled it up and actually literally filled in those ditches, you know, with taking the silt that had washed down.
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
539. The Best Argument Against Veganism | Joel Salatin
And we actually found 100-year-old fence posts buried 10 feet under silt. Can you truck that? Yes, yes. And what trucks and what front-end loaders? Yeah, a track loader, you know, and a couple dump trucks. I mean, you're just running it, whatever, you know, 200 yards. I mean, it's close. Boom, boom, boom. So you're flattening everything back out. So we're filling in those gullies.
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
539. The Best Argument Against Veganism | Joel Salatin
You just fill it in with the material you're digging to build a pond. I see. So you're just digging out.
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
539. The Best Argument Against Veganism | Joel Salatin
Well, we hired an excavator. Yeah. Yeah. But that wasn't done early. That was done much, much later. We just started moving animals around. On the land you had. And the choreography of moving them around itself was a tremendous healer. And I watched over my lifetime these big quarter-acre saucers of bare rock, just like a scab on your hand,
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
539. The Best Argument Against Veganism | Joel Salatin
You know, it heals from the outside in, doesn't heal from the inside out. It heals from the outside in. You know, it gets smaller and smaller, and finally that last little, you know, and you pull it off and you have new skin. That's exactly the way the soil was on these barren places.
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
539. The Best Argument Against Veganism | Joel Salatin
Every year, you know, 18 inches, the soil would come up on the edge, 18 inches, 18 inches, till eventually the rocks weren't out there today. And so why did it come back exactly? Because vegetation... If you can get enough decomposing vegetation, that builds soil. Right, right. That's how you build soil. So blow up, like the dead leaves blow along the edges and collect.
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
539. The Best Argument Against Veganism | Joel Salatin
And so by letting the grass grow to this second point where we're getting this, you know, more manure from the animals themselves. So the plants will colonize the rocks, essentially. Yes, the plants, absolutely. And so today, all those areas that when I was a kid, you know, it was bare rock, today has, you know, 16 inches of soil on it.
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
539. The Best Argument Against Veganism | Joel Salatin
Yes, absolutely.
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
539. The Best Argument Against Veganism | Joel Salatin
Right. In fact, when we look at that, in 1961, the first soil test that we took, we averaged about 1% organic matter. Organic matter is a kissing cousin to carbon. Organic matter is something is— Right, because carbon is life-based. Life-based. Life is carbon-based. Yeah, right, right, right.
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
539. The Best Argument Against Veganism | Joel Salatin
And so organic matter is something that was living at one time, and now it's in some state of decomposition in the soil. Yeah. It's what gives soil its porosity, its bounce, its, you know, its... It's what segregates it from sand or dust. Yes, yes, or even clay. Right, right, right. And so 1% today... we're a little over 8%.
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
539. The Best Argument Against Veganism | Joel Salatin
So all it would take, I mean, if you want to talk climate, you know, atmospheric carbon, all it would take is all of our farmland to change 1% in organic matter, and we would return to pre-1960 atmospheric carbon levels.
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
539. The Best Argument Against Veganism | Joel Salatin
That's exactly right. And as pastures, as perennials, and of course, you know, a lot of North America was a prairie, okay? That's a perennial prairie, as opposed to an annual, which is corn, soybeans, and crops. You don't have to plant perennials. They just grow year after year. That's right.
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
539. The Best Argument Against Veganism | Joel Salatin
So in a perennial prairie situation, pasture situation, if it's healthy, there's enough methanotrophic bacteria. This is a special kind of freestanding bacteria, methanotrophic bacteria. And like its name suggests, it's there to pull down methane. There's enough there to metabolize into the soil bank the methane released from 1,000 cows per acre.
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
539. The Best Argument Against Veganism | Joel Salatin
Well, you're never going to have 1,000 cows per acre.
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
539. The Best Argument Against Veganism | Joel Salatin
Sure. So we farm in Virginia's Shenandoah Valley, which is in the western part of the state, known historically as the breadbasket of the Confederacy during the Civil War, where Cyrus McCormick invented the the other reaper and that part of the industrial revolution really took place in 1837. And so we farmed there full time with a pastured livestock,
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
539. The Best Argument Against Veganism | Joel Salatin
No, they're not the same thing.
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
539. The Best Argument Against Veganism | Joel Salatin
And then we began adding the other species. So you've got the cattle. And so we look around. Jordan, a lot of what developed here was in the mid-60s, dad looked around and he said, well, 10, 10, 10 chemical fertilizer doesn't build soil. What does build soil? What makes regeneration happen? And it's very simple. There is no animal-less ecology, so you gotta have animals.
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
539. The Best Argument Against Veganism | Joel Salatin
Well, what about these animals? Well, they move. Well, if they move, then we have to give them shelter, water, and control. And so all of our innovations that we're now famous for grew out of not, we didn't sit around in a focus group saying, how can we innovate? It was strictly, How does nature work? So how do we mimic that on a domestic scale? That was all. You're basically mimicking migration.
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
539. The Best Argument Against Veganism | Joel Salatin
Mimicking the choreography. We call this mob stalking, herbivorous, solar conversion, lignified carbon, sequestration, fertilization. I knew you would enjoy that. Say that again. I did practice that. Okay, let's hear it again. Mob stalking, herbivorous solar conversion, lignified carbon sequestration.
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
539. The Best Argument Against Veganism | Joel Salatin
Yeah, plenty scientific. So then we say, well... How does this maintain sanitation? You've got all this manure and urine and stuff. Well, birds. Birds follow herbivores. So we built egg mobiles for laying chickens, and they follow the cow herd.
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
539. The Best Argument Against Veganism | Joel Salatin
The chickens scratch through the cow pies, eat out the fly larva, scratch the cow patties into the ground, stimulating the fertility, eating the grasshoppers and crickets that compete with the cows for the vegetation. And instead of where most farmers would shoot- So the chickens chase the cows.
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
539. The Best Argument Against Veganism | Joel Salatin
Yes, yes. So they're in egg mobiles, that's what we call them, egg mobiles.
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
539. The Best Argument Against Veganism | Joel Salatin
Yeah, so you're like- egret on the rhino's nose. I mean, look at any herd, wildebeest in nature, and you'll see these flocks of birds following, and they're the sanitizers with the herbivores. So instead of shooting the cows up with parasiticides and grubicides and things like that, we just collect $100,000 worth of eggs as a byproduct of the pasture sanitation program and the fertility program.
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
539. The Best Argument Against Veganism | Joel Salatin
Well, I mean, there are dung beetles, but the sanitation is that the manure is what carries the cattle parasites. That's where the parasites live and propagate to reinfect the cows when they come back through. So when the cows scatter them, the sun and now not having enough of a pie to procreate in, to live in, then they don't live for another day.
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
539. The Best Argument Against Veganism | Joel Salatin
Okay, yeah. So we move the... So... We move the cows every day around 4 o'clock. We like the afternoon move best for a number of reasons. But it's electric fence, one strand of electric fence. Cows are very smart. They don't want to get shocked. And so we just go out and open a cross fence. So imagine a ladder.
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
539. The Best Argument Against Veganism | Joel Salatin
with rungs, and so our permanent wires, our permanent fence is the stringers on the outside. Our portables are the rungs on the inside, and we can expand and contract those based on how big the herd is, how much grass there is, all sorts of factors. as to how much we're going to give them.
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
539. The Best Argument Against Veganism | Joel Salatin
Well, the edges. The edges. The edges define like between the field and the forest or the field and a creek, field and a pond. All right. So you... Okay. So that's permanently fenced off. That's permanent. Okay. And then you simply run, you know, you had a little reel, okay, with polywire on it, and you run that across from side to side, and that gives— That demarcates an area.
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
539. The Best Argument Against Veganism | Joel Salatin
operation that doesn't use vaccines, hormones, chemical fertilizers. My mom and dad bought the original core property in 1961. So I was four years old and we came there and it was a gullied rock pile, cheap land. And dad asked agriculture experts, how do I make a living on this small farm? Small being what's the size? So at that time, it was about 100 acres open and 450 in woodland.
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
539. The Best Argument Against Veganism | Joel Salatin
That demarcates an area, and you're simply giving those cows a segment of that, you know, we call it a paddock.
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
539. The Best Argument Against Veganism | Joel Salatin
Every day. And the beauty is that— In no time, the cows respond to you coming. I mean, think about your dog or your cat. When you bang the dish, they come running. They know what that is. Well, the cows, when we go out to move them roughly, we try to do it as close to four as possible,
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
539. The Best Argument Against Veganism | Joel Salatin
If you got called every day at four o'clock for a bowl of ice cream, about 345, your tail would wag and your ears would wiggle too. And so the cows are ready and we go out and we just call them, come on, cows. And they just come running through. We close behind them. Why do they...
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
539. The Best Argument Against Veganism | Joel Salatin
Because, yes, because they've got a new salad bar. Okay, so they've learned that. They've got a new salad bar. They've learned that. It doesn't take them long to learn that. They learn that very, very quickly. And so they just, so you don't have to herd them.
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
539. The Best Argument Against Veganism | Joel Salatin
Animals love routine.
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
539. The Best Argument Against Veganism | Joel Salatin
Yes, yes. Even though they think they don't. Yeah, yeah. Oh, no, we are creatures of routine. So the moving them, But you have to understand.
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
539. The Best Argument Against Veganism | Joel Salatin
It stops them from going into tomorrow's dinner. So basically, we're giving them one day's plate of menu every day. Right. One plate full. If somebody came and gave you five platefuls of food, for five days, you'd probably just pick out the good stuff and leave the stuff you didn't want. And, you know, you'd be a lot more. Right. So they have enough.
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
539. The Best Argument Against Veganism | Joel Salatin
And they actually change their behavior to eat more aggressively. and with less prejudice on the liver and onions, if you will. And so this actually is healthy for the cows to actually increase their palatability index to eat things that they wouldn't. So they'll eat thistles and they'll eat all sorts of things that are actually good for them that They wouldn't eat. If they had more choice.
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
539. The Best Argument Against Veganism | Joel Salatin
If they had all the choice.
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
539. The Best Argument Against Veganism | Joel Salatin
We never planted anything. This is natural seed bank. Whatever's there grows. And so the management affects the type of vegetation you have.
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
539. The Best Argument Against Veganism | Joel Salatin
Because there's a seed bank. Already in nature. There's a seed bank in nature. It comes in on bird wings, deer hide, possums waddle across. The ability of nature to spread seeds is almost incomprehensible. Right, right. It's almost incomprehensible.
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
539. The Best Argument Against Veganism | Joel Salatin
So that's crucial. So the seed bank... So the seeds will come all by themselves. So the key is for us... to create a habitat that will allow as many different kinds of plants to flourish as possible. And so that's what revegetated these fields.
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
539. The Best Argument Against Veganism | Joel Salatin
Because each one of them creates a different enzyme. Makes it more resilient to it. Some have spreader roots, some have tap roots, some like sun, some like shade.
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
539. The Best Argument Against Veganism | Joel Salatin
And not only that, but the research... being done by the Bionutrient Food Association right now. They're two years into this beef study. It's being done at the University of Utah, the lab. they're measuring 150 different nutrients in beef. And what makes one have more than the other? What makes beef different nutritively?
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
539. The Best Argument Against Veganism | Joel Salatin
And interestingly, there's no difference in organic, there's no difference in breed, no difference in age. The only metric that makes a big difference in the amount of riboflavin, the amount of niacin, whatever, 150 nutrients. The only thing that makes a big difference is how many different types of plants did the animal eat?
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
539. The Best Argument Against Veganism | Joel Salatin
So it was very much a forest. It goes up along, you know, one of those Appalachian mountains there. And then, you know, the nice... The bottom land is out, you know, from the base. And so 100 acres of, you know, decent usable land that was one of the gullies we measured was 16 feet deep, 16 feet from the top to the bottom. That's a deep gully.
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
539. The Best Argument Against Veganism | Joel Salatin
Jury's out on that. I mean, there are certainly people who have planted things in their fields. In general, if I'm going to convert, for example, a a cornfield into pasture, I'm going to plant. I don't have time. Time to wait. I don't have time to wait. In 20 years, yes, it'll be a pasture, but I don't want to wait 20 years. So in that case, I would certainly plant. You would plant what?
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
539. The Best Argument Against Veganism | Joel Salatin
Alfalfa, maybe? What do you plant? No, I would plant a cocktail. Two clovers, three grasses, some plantain. You just sprinkle that together? Yeah. I see. So you'd make an artificial diverse plant. Artificial cocktail. Yeah, yeah. Okay. And then it'll gradually diversify over time.
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
539. The Best Argument Against Veganism | Joel Salatin
And what else do you raise? More than that, we went... Two things. One, we went multi-species. So we have cows, chickens, both meat and eggs, pigs, lamb, rabbit, duck. So multi-species. Okay, okay.
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
539. The Best Argument Against Veganism | Joel Salatin
Yeah. I mean, well, it's for eggs and meat. Mm-hmm. That's a small—we won't do a lot of those. Our main is beef, pork, and chicken. I mean, that's our main thing. Rabbit, duck, lamb, those are all kind of peripheral things. But the other part of this is that we elected to direct market. Yeah, okay.
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
539. The Best Argument Against Veganism | Joel Salatin
So remember, Dad was an accountant, and he understood very early on that as a small farm, the commodity margin—the commodity business— The whole goal is to become the least cost producer. Yeah, at high scale. At high scale. Yeah, yeah, right. Okay? Right. And as a small farm, he understood we can't compete at that. So I'm sure you've heard farmers say, well, the middleman makes all the money.
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
539. The Best Argument Against Veganism | Joel Salatin
Exactly. So— He realized, well, in order for us to compete to actually make a living on this small farm, we need to become a middleman. We need to own that. So basically, the retail dollar is divided into producer, processor, marketer, distributor. Those four basic— Say that again. Producer, processor, marketer, and distributor.
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
539. The Best Argument Against Veganism | Joel Salatin
But there were just, you know, the hillsides were just gullies like that, like corrugated roofing from back from erosion back in, you know, plowing in the day. And large areas, a quarter acre that were just solid rock, five to eight feet of topsoil had washed off over the years of tillage. And there was no vegetation.
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
539. The Best Argument Against Veganism | Joel Salatin
Right, of course. So it's got to get to the retail interface somehow, okay? So the retail dollars divided those four ways in different commodities. There are different percentages in each of those four categories. And tremendous competition between them. Yes, tremendous competition.
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
539. The Best Argument Against Veganism | Joel Salatin
The farmer, there's only one part of that that is subject to what I call the four horsemen of the apocalypse, which is weather, price, pestilence, and disease. Right. That's production.
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
539. The Best Argument Against Veganism | Joel Salatin
He takes all the risks. Yeah, yeah. Whereas, you know, when the grasshoppers come, they don't eat the tires on your delivery vehicle. When the drought comes, it doesn't eliminate your Wi-Fi connection to your customers. So these other three, the three, the processing, marketing, and distribution are relatively immune for weather, price, pestilence.
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
539. The Best Argument Against Veganism | Joel Salatin
That's right. So we began when we established, headed into this, we established a direct marketing persona. It eventually became our brand, Polyface, P-O-L-Y-F-A-C, Polyface Farm, Farm of Many Faces. That became our brand. And we now sell to restaurants, institutions, boutique groceries. We ship nationwide. We have a farm store. We direct sell into about 35 drop points in the urban sector around
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
539. The Best Argument Against Veganism | Joel Salatin
Northern Virginia, D.C., Richmond, Virginia Beach, Williamsburg. And those drop, tell me about those.
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
539. The Best Argument Against Veganism | Joel Salatin
No, no. We're not involved in any farmer's markets. And I'm not opposed to farmer's markets. But I just don't think, in general, they're not a very efficient interface because they're primarily social circles. Yeah. They're primarily social clubs.
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
539. The Best Argument Against Veganism | Joel Salatin
Yeah. So they're like a boutique product. Yeah, because most of the people who go are there to show their support of local food and assuage their guilt from taking it. Yeah, and have a nice, And have a nice day and show off their newly clothed little poodle dog, you know, that they had done. And so they can only buy a little baby food jar with a pink ribbon on it of kimchi or some special thing.
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
539. The Best Argument Against Veganism | Joel Salatin
They're not buying bushels of green beans or bushels of apples or things. And so we just found farmer's markets a very inefficient retail industry. How do you build your customer network? That's work, man. Yeah, it is. It is. We spend as much time marketing as we do the entire farm production.
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
539. The Best Argument Against Veganism | Joel Salatin
I remember as a child being able to walk the whole farm and never setting foot on a piece of vegetation. It was that barren. It was very, very poor, but it was cheap. And so that's- And worth every penny by the sounds of it. Well, so, you know, dad says, well, how do I make a living on this farm?
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
539. The Best Argument Against Veganism | Joel Salatin
So you guys figured that out. Messaging is everything. So... And the messaging always has to be in terms of the possible buyer. Right. In other words, it's not about you.
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
539. The Best Argument Against Veganism | Joel Salatin
It's about their need, describing their need. What's their problem? What's their need? What can I fix for you? Yeah, absolutely. And that's a hard thing when I'm not like my normal consumer. Right, definitely. I have a big garden. I walk out the back door, I've got eggs, I've got cows, I've got, you know. So you don't even exist in the landscape where the problem is. Exactly.
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
539. The Best Argument Against Veganism | Joel Salatin
So for me, I almost have to get into some sort of a, you know, a yin position or something to, okay. How do I think when I don't have these? How do I think like my consumer, like my customer thinks? Very difficult, yeah. Very, very difficult. But when you can get into that position, you can absolutely message it.
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
539. The Best Argument Against Veganism | Joel Salatin
So remember when we started, so I came back to the farm full-time September 24, 1982. Okay, 1982. I was an investigative reporter at the local newspaper for two and a half years after college. So now I'm wanting to come back to the farm full-time. Now I'm working in town trying to, how do I come back to the farm full-time? Teresa and I got married. We remodeled the attic of the old farmhouse.
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
539. The Best Argument Against Veganism | Joel Salatin
We didn't call it the attic. We called it our penthouse. And we lived on, we drove a $50 car, lived on $300 a month. And within two years, we were able to save enough that we could live for one year without an income. And so September 24, 1982, I walked out of the office. I didn't think we'd make it. Why the hell was your wife on board with this? Like, why did she think?
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
539. The Best Argument Against Veganism | Joel Salatin
Because I married the greatest gal in the world, man. I mean, she is the ultimate home economist. She cans 800 quarts of stuff a summer. She can sew clothes, make. I see. I see. She was interested in doing all of that. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, I mean, she thought I was pretty sharp. I think he still does. You were working as a reporter, and she was working as what?
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
539. The Best Argument Against Veganism | Joel Salatin
Well, we had Daniel, so she worked at a fabric store for a little bit, clerking, but Daniel came very early, and so she stayed at home, and I'm working at the newspaper.
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
539. The Best Argument Against Veganism | Joel Salatin
And it was, you know, buy chemical fertilizer, plant corn, borrow money, build silos, you know, graze the woods. And my grandfather, his dad, had been a charter subscriber to Rodale's Organic Gardening and Farming magazine when it first came out in 1945. And so he always aspired to be a My dad was an accountant. Mom was a schoolteacher. And so he saw the chemical approach as a rat race.
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
539. The Best Argument Against Veganism | Joel Salatin
I mean, is that fair enough?
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
539. The Best Argument Against Veganism | Joel Salatin
I mean, you want your wife to be seriously on board with this. This is hard work. The single biggest reason farms fail is inconsistency. contradictory visions of husband-wife.
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
539. The Best Argument Against Veganism | Joel Salatin
But I can see it being particularly acute with a project like this because it's all consuming. You don't go to work every day. You're with each other. And you've got the four horsemen of the apocalypse nipping at your heels all the time. Yes, exactly. So we... So I came back to the farm full time. Now I'm there in 82. And it took us three years. Jordan, until I say we could exhale.
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
539. The Best Argument Against Veganism | Joel Salatin
I think we're gonna make it. It took us three years.
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
539. The Best Argument Against Veganism | Joel Salatin
No, that's right.
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
539. The Best Argument Against Veganism | Joel Salatin
Yeah, but 10 to 11 is a lot easier. Yeah, right, right, right. So what I did at that time, Fortunately, I was blessed and have been blessed with a bit of a gift of gab, communication. I'm an extrovert. In high school, college, I did interscholastic, intercollegiate debate. I've got a room full of debate trophies. And did theater, drama, plays, public speaking, all that.
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
539. The Best Argument Against Veganism | Joel Salatin
I didn't do the athletic thing. I was not... I was a late bloomer. The best thing that ever happened to me was getting cut from the seventh grade basketball team. My mother was a health and phys ed teacher, so she was extremely athletic. My older brother was very athletic. And here I come along, well, I've got to be athletic, right? You've got to join the family brand, after all.
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
539. The Best Argument Against Veganism | Joel Salatin
And so I'm a pudgy 14-year-old late bloomer. And I get cut from the seventh grade baseball team. I get cut from the eighth grade basketball team. In other words, I don't make the teams. I'm on the team and get cut. I mean, I didn't even make the tryouts, okay? I didn't make them.
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
539. The Best Argument Against Veganism | Joel Salatin
And I remember like yesterday in eighth grade looking and not seeing my name on that roster and making a mental decision. Okay, athletics is done. I'm a great communicator. I win spelling bees. I win whatever, speaking contests. I'm going to put all my attention on that. So I tell kids, I say, you be thankful for what you fail at early because that helps you determine your path in life.
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
539. The Best Argument Against Veganism | Joel Salatin
The people who communicate lead their professions. Right. Across the board. Right, right, right. Exactly. And I have moms come up to me with their little, you know, 10-year-old in tow. My son wants to be a farmer or daughter wants to be a farmer. What would you suggest to them? I say... find your local amateur theater group, enroll them.
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
539. The Best Argument Against Veganism | Joel Salatin
Get them, get them. So counterintuitively. Yes, and they look at me like, yeah. I say, become a storyteller. Yeah. Storytellers are what changed the world. Yeah, right, that's exactly right. And so we, obviously, 82, this is before computers, before, you know, internet, any of this stuff. And so we basically did a three-prong approach. I put together a slide program
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
539. The Best Argument Against Veganism | Joel Salatin
you know, the old Kodak carousel, you know, a slide projector. And at that time, every city had a very vibrant kind of, you know, philanthropy, you know, Rotary Club, Ruritan, Kiwanis, Toastmasters, Elks, Moose, right, all these. And they do, you know, weekly or monthly dinner meetings. And they're always looking for an interesting program.
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
539. The Best Argument Against Veganism | Joel Salatin
And so I put together a carousel program, how we can heal the planet with pasture-based livestock. And it was the beginning of this. This was when did you do this? In 82. Oh, yeah. So, okay. So, this was just the beginning. You know, Tom Brokaw, Peter Jennings were just beginning to once in a while put in a tidbit about cow burps.
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
539. The Best Argument Against Veganism | Joel Salatin
And, you know, there was just the beginning of this kind of demonization of livestock.
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
539. The Best Argument Against Veganism | Joel Salatin
And so anyway, I put this together. And at the end, I would say, now, if you'd like to participate in this, I'll be glad to add your name to our customer list. You'll get a newsletter and order blank. And each one of those would yield two, three, four people. You know, so that was one thing I did.
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
539. The Best Argument Against Veganism | Joel Salatin
Because you're always trying to outrun the—it's like a drug addiction. You're trying to outrun the adaptation of— You know, the chemicals, they cannibalize in the soil. There's a lot of things that happen there. And so you're trying to chase that. You're hoping that human creativity will keep you one step ahead of biological adaptation.
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
539. The Best Argument Against Veganism | Joel Salatin
How many did you have to collect? Fortunately, at that time, you know, we, with our low expenses and all that, we didn't need more than, goodness, 100 families, 100, 200 families. Right, okay, okay.
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
539. The Best Argument Against Veganism | Joel Salatin
So you put together this slide presentation and you collected 150 avid customers. Yes, yes, yes. And if you've got 100 people that are spending $1,000 a year with you, that's, That's significant. Right, right. Especially if they're loyal and they had also talked to other people, because word of mouth really matters.
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
539. The Best Argument Against Veganism | Joel Salatin
Okay, so the next thing we did was when somebody would call us and say, hey, I heard about you, I want your stuff. you're tempted to say, oh, good, good. Well, what do you want? You want five chickens and three T-bone steaks? My first question was, where did you hear about us? Where did you hear about us? Oh, I had dinner over at Mary Jane's.
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
539. The Best Argument Against Veganism | Joel Salatin
And so then I'd go to the customer box and I'd put a post-it note at Mary Jane's to remind me the next time Mary Jane came out and picked up something, Mary Jane's Thank you. I just hug her, slobber all over her, say, thank you for spreading the word. And tell you what, go over and take a dozen eggs home with you for free. And people are starved for appreciation. They're starved for love.
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
539. The Best Argument Against Veganism | Joel Salatin
They're starved for appreciation. They will jump off a cliff for you.
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
539. The Best Argument Against Veganism | Joel Salatin
I don't want you to tear the scale. Stephen Covey in The Seven Habits of Highly Effective People talks about emotional equity. And he says it takes roughly 10 positives, 10 praises, To take one criticism.
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
539. The Best Argument Against Veganism | Joel Salatin
Oh, we're hardwired to remember. Nobody comes back from town and says, honey, I hit five go lights. We hit stop lights. We never call them go lights, even though they let us go. We never think about them letting us go. We think about them making us stop. Yes, yes. So I did the slide program, kind of what I call infotainment. Yeah, and the story.
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
539. The Best Argument Against Veganism | Joel Salatin
The story is so important because you have an interesting story to tell. Exactly, the story. And people, listen, people still love to feel like they're a part of a great cause, of a great thing. And so the whole theme here is you can participate in... in healing the planet, making vegetation, building soil, clean water, clean air. You can participate with what you eat. Here's how you do it.
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
539. The Best Argument Against Veganism | Joel Salatin
And so people love, they're drawn, they're attracted to this what? All of our little bags at the farm store, our little slogan is healing the planet or healing the land one bite at a time. We're trying to connect what you're eating to the landscape. And you're actually doing it. And we're actually doing it. All right, so. It's an important detail as well. Yeah, yeah.
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
539. The Best Argument Against Veganism | Joel Salatin
The thing I love most is when people come to visit the farm, we have a 24-7, 365 open-door policy. Anyone can come from anywhere in the world to see anything, anytime, anywhere unannounced. That's our dedication to transparency. And we love to hear people come and say, wow, it was better than I imagined. Yeah, that's good. That's good stuff. So we did that.
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
539. The Best Argument Against Veganism | Joel Salatin
We actually, dad was, so dad flew in the Navy in World War II and and on GI Bill, went to Indiana University, got his degree in economics. He met mom there. And then he had a dream of farming. His dad never farmed full-time, but he wanted to farm. Well, I'm a Midwestern boy, no money, no land. How do I farm? And at that time, this was 1940s, and he saw Atlas Shrugged and Rand.
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
539. The Best Argument Against Veganism | Joel Salatin
And then the other thing we did was that when somebody was interested, we gave them a sample. Samples work. If you've got a good product or you've got good content, samples work. And so we tease them with a sample. Give them a chicken. Give them a dozen eggs. Give them a T-bone steak. Give them a pound of ground beef or a pound of bacon or something.
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
539. The Best Argument Against Veganism | Joel Salatin
And because for the very reason that you said earlier, nobody's looking for something new. Nobody goes down the shampoo aisle and says, you know, I've been a head and shoulders guy all my life, but today, for some reason, I've got a hankering for something else. Pantene Pro-V, you know. Nobody does that.
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
539. The Best Argument Against Veganism | Joel Salatin
And so maybe you want four. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, something like that. Yeah, that's exactly right. So we'd give a sample so that they could try something new with no risk. Right. And what we found was a lot of times people are naturally intuitively prejudiced to a gift more than they are something that they bought. Because when you buy something, you have buyer's remorse.
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
539. The Best Argument Against Veganism | Joel Salatin
When somebody gives you something, there's no remorse. And so you have this feel-good thing. Even if they're equal, the one you were given, you tend to have more positive emotion for than what you had to buy. And so I'm not saying our stuff wasn't as good. I'm just saying. But you are saying if it was equally good, that would be Good enough. Yeah, you tap into these emotional things.
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
539. The Best Argument Against Veganism | Joel Salatin
So that was kind of our three-pronged approach early on to kind of start and build a patron base. In fact, we don't call them customers. We call them patrons. We call them patron saints, and we address them as patron saints.
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
539. The Best Argument Against Veganism | Joel Salatin
Yes. And we call this relationship marketing. We're really marketing a relationship because they're not buying it because it's a label. They're buying it because they trust us. Because they trust us.
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
539. The Best Argument Against Veganism | Joel Salatin
And now with food choice and, you know, labeling confusion and, you know, what is a cage-free, natural, you know, all this stuff, what is all this stuff, we've now presented ourselves as our patrons' food coach. you don't ever have to be confused again. Just buy it from us and you'll know it's the best and it doesn't matter. Right.
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
539. The Best Argument Against Veganism | Joel Salatin
Yeah. Yeah. So the problem is... Because every mom is scared to death. Am I buying the best for my kid? Am I buying the best for my kid? So I just come in straight away and say, you never have to be concerned about that at all. I'll solve that. Right. Get it from us and you never have to worry about that again. Right.
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
539. The Best Argument Against Veganism | Joel Salatin
There was a lot of socialism going on in America there World War II-ish. And he said, you know, I'm going to go to a developing country. You know, it's a really free market, small government. You know, we can do what we want. So he got on with Texas Oil Company as a bilingual accountant to Venezuela.
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
539. The Best Argument Against Veganism | Joel Salatin
Well, you also have to think about it as persuasion that people don't move too far too fast. People move incrementally. Yeah. So one of the things that we deal with all the time is on a scale of, say, 1 to 10, 1 being your food comes from the gas station. Yeah. And let's say we're a 10, okay? Yeah. You irritate somebody if you try to move them from a one to a 10. Yeah.
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
539. The Best Argument Against Veganism | Joel Salatin
That's because you're criticizing everything you do. That's right. That's right. But if we can move them, if as a result of a discussion, a friendly discussion, a non-aggressive discussion, we can move them from a one to a two. Yeah. They're on their way.
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
539. The Best Argument Against Veganism | Joel Salatin
And they might not buy from us, but now instead of buying from the gas station, they're going to the, whatever, organic section of the supermarket or something, okay? And you gradually move them up. And so too many times in persuasion, people try to move people too fast. And people resist being moved too fast. Definitely. And that's why you have to start with a...
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
539. The Best Argument Against Veganism | Joel Salatin
with a question that moves you to common ground quickly if you're going to make progress. Because if you move too fast, then you lose them. And now there's no discount. Yeah, well, they can't see a way to bridge the gap. Plus, you're criticizing their whole lifestyle. So in marketing, one of the things that we teach and promote through our team is No sale is an end to itself.
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
539. The Best Argument Against Veganism | Joel Salatin
Every sale is a springboard for the next sale. Right, of course. You cannot stay in business finding new customers. The only way you stay in business is to please the customers you have enough that they buzz and tell people about it and bring them back to you. And that's a long-term relationship. It's akin to a friendship relationship. You don't want to play with someone once.
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
539. The Best Argument Against Veganism | Joel Salatin
Which is why you don't want to irritate somebody at your lectures or your presentations. Yeah, because they're already in the camp, right? They're the last people you want to irritate, right? Exactly, exactly. Yeah, yeah. They've done all the work coming to you. Yeah, you need to do backflips to make them happy and meet their expectations.
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
539. The Best Argument Against Veganism | Joel Salatin
And in seven years, was able to save enough money to buy a 1,000-acre farm in the highlands of Venezuela. We started raising chickens. 1,000 acres. 1,000 acres. Started raising chickens. And because our chickens were so clean, immediately he took over the local—
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
539. The Best Argument Against Veganism | Joel Salatin
The local chicken market, you know how those Latin American, all the farmers come in with their wares and the middlemen, you know, this is 1950s. And so he quickly took over the chicken market because the indigenous chickens had a, they had snot. They had a nasal mucus. They were running in open sewers and things like that.
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
539. The Best Argument Against Veganism | Joel Salatin
Yes, indeed. Yeah, yeah. Why is that? I'll tell you something. Most farmers my age, and I'm almost 70, most farmers my age are lonelier than they've ever been in their life. Their kids are gone. And they've had enough. The kids are gone. It's Matilda and I by ourselves.
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
539. The Best Argument Against Veganism | Joel Salatin
And boy, I can't get up and down off that tractor as well as I used to, you know, that sort of thing. And they're And for me, Jordan, creating this model, this farm that, yes, the multispeciation makes it different every day. Different animals, different things. The diversity of ecology.
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
539. The Best Argument Against Veganism | Joel Salatin
We've built 20 ponds, so there's ducks and there's wood ducks and there's deer and there's bear and there's wildlife and pollinators and everything. So there's just vibrant life and earthworms. And so you have all of that. You have that aesthetic and aromatic sensual beauty and attractiveness. And then you add the component of the social element, the people, our customers.
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
539. The Best Argument Against Veganism | Joel Salatin
In other words, we're not just out here hauling grain to a Cargill grain bin. Yeah. You have a social community. Every day, there are people at the farm saying, I so thank you for what you do. You're just, our family depends on you. Thank you.
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
539. The Best Argument Against Veganism | Joel Salatin
From our day one, our kids grow up with our customers pinching them on the cheek saying, we just think your parents are the coolest in the world and thank you for being a part of this. And so here I am, 22 of us now basically earn a full-time living from the farm.
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
539. The Best Argument Against Veganism | Joel Salatin
And I'm surrounded now by these 20s and 30s-year-old—you know, the oldest ones are in their early 40s now—but these team and these young people that are just—just can't wait to do what I've done. And every day, they— They think I'm cool, you know, and they want to do this.
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
539. The Best Argument Against Veganism | Joel Salatin
And so, I mean, I just break down in tears when I, you know, explain the blessing and the gratitude that I have that at this stage in my life, I'm surrounded by this youthful enthusiasm to appreciate what I've spent a lifetime carving out, and they will now take it to new heights that I never dreamed of.
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
539. The Best Argument Against Veganism | Joel Salatin
And, of course, all the farmers accused us of witchcraft and voodoo and that. And so when there was a— I thought witchcraft generally made sick chickens, not healthy ones. Well— Well, it's amazing what you can come up with when you're looking for an excuse. So then in 1959, there was the junta of Pérez Jiménez there.
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
539. The Best Argument Against Veganism | Joel Salatin
Yeah, some Bovira or something.
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
539. The Best Argument Against Veganism | Joel Salatin
And when you have anarchy like that, it allows scores to be settled that wouldn't be otherwise settled under normal times. And so this gave a way for people to develop their— Well, to run us out, if you will. And basically the machine guns came in the front door. We went out the back door and we spent another eight months.
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
539. The Best Argument Against Veganism | Joel Salatin
Dad met with every minister, you know, the secretary of interior, agriculture, treasury, trying to get protection. And nobody would, it was all bribe. You know, how much you pay me or they were scared they'd be assassinated. And so the only thing to do was to, dad was there 12 years, loved the culture, loved the country and loved the language, loved the people.
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
539. The Best Argument Against Veganism | Joel Salatin
But we couldn't stay with no protection like that. So we came back to the States Easter Sunday, 1961. When were you born? So I was born in 1957. So were you ever in Venezuela? Yeah. You were there, too. Do you have any memories of it at all? Toward the end, yes, yes. There's a big difference between being three years old and four years old. Yeah.
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
539. The Best Argument Against Veganism | Joel Salatin
And so I don't remember the farm, but I remember Caracas. Of course, I spoke Spanish, you know, as well as English. And I remember some of that trauma at the end, like dad turning the car around and running away from gorillas and, you know, things like that. Right, right. And so there was some trauma there. So that was your encounter with socialism. Yes, yes. Man, fun, fun, fun. Yes.
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
539. The Best Argument Against Veganism | Joel Salatin
So then your family moved to the States and bought this. We came back to the States, and dad was 39, lost everything. And I remember when I hit 39 thinking, if I lost it all, would I start over? And he went way up in my respect and honor at that point. And so we did.
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
539. The Best Argument Against Veganism | Joel Salatin
The reason that we didn't go back to the Midwest where both he and mom were from and had family was because he was still hoping to go back to Venezuela. He was hoping that when things settled, you know, we'd get a call from the ambassador. And by being that close to D.C., You know, we could run up there in hours, sign paperwork, and be back to the farm in Venezuela. I see.
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
539. The Best Argument Against Veganism | Joel Salatin
That was his— So this was an interim plan to begin with. This was an interim plan, and it ended up not being an interim plan.
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
539. The Best Argument Against Veganism | Joel Salatin
It would be an average size farm for that area, you know, 150 acres of open land, you know, usable land with, you know, with a woodlot. Compared to most farms, it had a much bigger woodlot, you know, being 450 acres. That's a lot of wood. Any commercial utility in the wood? Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. This is Appalachian hardwoods. This is oak and black walnut and poplar.
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
539. The Best Argument Against Veganism | Joel Salatin
And yeah, there's some good timber there. It had been timbered, though. It had been all timbered, so it was primarily newer growth. It wasn't large trees. And so there was really not much value there. There was some, but not a lot of value.
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
539. The Best Argument Against Veganism | Joel Salatin
You implied that all of it. All of it was poor land. some of it was, was a poorer than others. It wasn't all rock for sure. You know, the, the shale lies in a, it lies like this in, in the ground. And so, you know, you can, you can go down three feet here and then here you're on rock and then three feet here and you're on, you know, it's, it's layers. It kind of lays in there like that.
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
539. The Best Argument Against Veganism | Joel Salatin
So, so, you know, that's the way that that's the way the land was. But dad was a, Dad was a – he was such a visionary. And so when – we realized the advice from the system is not acceptable.
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
539. The Best Argument Against Veganism | Joel Salatin
Right. Well, A, we didn't, He had a tremendous conservation ethic, and these gullies, he knew. Oh, I see. We couldn't plant corn. I mean, there wasn't enough. That's why we had gullies.
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
539. The Best Argument Against Veganism | Joel Salatin
So we could see that it had been mismanaged. Right. Oh, yeah, yeah. You could tell that it had been very mismanaged. So we started a very aggressive tree planting campaign. We planted about 60 acres in trees over those first 10 years. So we actually shrunk some of the open land, and we put brush down in the gullies, and he started experimenting. That was to stabilize the soil against erosion?
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
539. The Best Argument Against Veganism | Joel Salatin
If you want to talk atmospheric carbon, all it would take is all of our farmland to change 1% in organic matter. We call this mob-stalking, herbivorous, solar conversion, lignified carbon, sequestration, fertilization. We spend as much time marketing as we do the entire farm production.
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
539. The Best Argument Against Veganism | Joel Salatin
To at least stop the erosion. And one of my most poignant childhood memories was one Sunday, he said, I met this guy, I want to go see him. So we got in the car on a Sunday afternoon, took this drive, And I don't remember what the guy had. I don't remember whether he had sheep or chickens or pigs or whatever he had. All I remember was coming home. I was, what, maybe six or seven.
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
539. The Best Argument Against Veganism | Joel Salatin
I remember coming home and dad just literally levitating as he drove the car. This guy had portable animal shelters. And dad had never seen anything like that before. And it clicked in his head. Wow, portable animal shelters. Suddenly, I don't have to build stationary. I don't have to build a barn. I can build mobile infrastructure. And because he'd already gotten onto this moving animals around.
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
539. The Best Argument Against Veganism | Joel Salatin
Andre Voisini was a Frenchman who wrote Grass Productivity, kind of still the Bible of rotational or controlled grazing. Mm-hmm. And where you mimic native choreography, where animals— Because the animals migrate. The animals migrate. They move around. Right. And so, you know, we don't have wolves, and they won't let us do fire very much. And so—but we do have electric fence.
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
539. The Best Argument Against Veganism | Joel Salatin
Electric fence was just coming in. This is the early 60s. And so Dad actually invented a portable electric fencing system to where we could start moving the cows around. And— And, you know, we moved them, whatever, once every 10 days or so and gradually got better and better and better until by the, you know, by the time I was a teenager, we were moving them, you know, every three or four days.
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
539. The Best Argument Against Veganism | Joel Salatin
Then when I was in college, I put in our basic permanent grid so we could move them every day. And that was a quantum leap. That moved us. When we started moving them every day, everything started to kick in.
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
539. The Best Argument Against Veganism | Joel Salatin
Yeah, so the thing you have to understand from an ecology standpoint is if we had a graph and we charted the way vegetation grows, it grows in a sigmoid curve. It's just like a person. They start small, little baby, you know, and then they hit teenage years and they grow real fast, and then they quit growing and eventually go into senescence.