JD Vance

And by the way, just not to wade back into January 6th territory, like what is a bigger threat to American democracy? Is it that we had a big fight about some of the

And by the way, just not to wade back into January 6th territory, like what is a bigger threat to American democracy? Is it that we had a big fight about some of the

some of the certification in January the 6th, and of course you had some rioters at the Capitol, or is it that, for example, the Joint Chiefs of Staff didn't obey the President of the United States on troop redeployments in Syria, which actually happened during Trump's administration?

some of the certification in January the 6th, and of course you had some rioters at the Capitol, or is it that, for example, the Joint Chiefs of Staff didn't obey the President of the United States on troop redeployments in Syria, which actually happened during Trump's administration?

Like, if we're going to talk about threats to democracy, we need the government to be responsive to the American people's elected president. If you don't have that, you don't have a real democracy.

Like, if we're going to talk about threats to democracy, we need the government to be responsive to the American people's elected president. If you don't have that, you don't have a real democracy.

Well. At a high level, certainly, I'm one of the co-chairs of the transition team. There are a few others of us who are working on it. You just sort of think about, I mean, look, the way the founders set up our government, whether you like it or not, there are certain things, especially when it comes to budget and appropriations, you just have to go through Congress, right?

Well. At a high level, certainly, I'm one of the co-chairs of the transition team. There are a few others of us who are working on it. You just sort of think about, I mean, look, the way the founders set up our government, whether you like it or not, there are certain things, especially when it comes to budget and appropriations, you just have to go through Congress, right?

You fundamentally have to. Now, I do think that Congress is willing to work with us at least the first couple of years of an administration. You can largely get the budgetary and appropriations things that you need. But there's a lot that you can do through EO. And by the way, in a lot of ways, I think the enlargement of the president at the expense of Congress is a bad thing.

You fundamentally have to. Now, I do think that Congress is willing to work with us at least the first couple of years of an administration. You can largely get the budgetary and appropriations things that you need. But there's a lot that you can do through EO. And by the way, in a lot of ways, I think the enlargement of the president at the expense of Congress is a bad thing.

But fundamentally, there is a lot that happens in our government purely through executive orders, through EOs. And yes, we're thinking very deliberately about all the things that you could do through EOs on day one.

But fundamentally, there is a lot that happens in our government purely through executive orders, through EOs. And yes, we're thinking very deliberately about all the things that you could do through EOs on day one.

or in the early parts of the administration, and again, not to make this too partisan, but one of the ways that Biden and Harris opened up the American southern border was through executive orders, right? It was an executive order that submitted deportations, an executive order that ended the Remain in Mexico policy. So you can screw up a lot through EOs.

or in the early parts of the administration, and again, not to make this too partisan, but one of the ways that Biden and Harris opened up the American southern border was through executive orders, right? It was an executive order that submitted deportations, an executive order that ended the Remain in Mexico policy. So you can screw up a lot through EOs.

You can also fix a lot through EOs, which is certainly something that we're focused on.

You can also fix a lot through EOs, which is certainly something that we're focused on.

And now I find myself agreeing with everything the Democrats said in 2008. Right. Total coincidence.

And now I find myself agreeing with everything the Democrats said in 2008. Right. Total coincidence.

Yeah, I mean, look, one way to think about it is that we traded Dick Cheney for Bobby Kennedy, and that's an upgrade I'll take every single day. Look, I mean, one way of understanding is you have to ask yourself who has benefited and who has harmed from the last 30 years of the bipartisan consensus in this country, right?

Yeah, I mean, look, one way to think about it is that we traded Dick Cheney for Bobby Kennedy, and that's an upgrade I'll take every single day. Look, I mean, one way of understanding is you have to ask yourself who has benefited and who has harmed from the last 30 years of the bipartisan consensus in this country, right?

So you want to talk about a manufacturing policy that I think promoted the offshoring of millions of good American manufacturing jobs and in the process, by the way, made us less self-reliant as a country. That really benefited people like Dick Cheney and Kamala Harris and their donors. It didn't benefit the people that I serve in the state of Ohio, okay?

So you want to talk about a manufacturing policy that I think promoted the offshoring of millions of good American manufacturing jobs and in the process, by the way, made us less self-reliant as a country. That really benefited people like Dick Cheney and Kamala Harris and their donors. It didn't benefit the people that I serve in the state of Ohio, okay?

If you ask yourself, who actually went off and fought these ridiculous wars? It was very often working and middle-class kids in communities like mine it wasn't the family of our current leadership class by and large, though, of course, there are exceptions. And you go through each of these issues, and what you find is increasingly Republicans are the party of working and middle-class people.

If you ask yourself, who actually went off and fought these ridiculous wars? It was very often working and middle-class kids in communities like mine it wasn't the family of our current leadership class by and large, though, of course, there are exceptions. And you go through each of these issues, and what you find is increasingly Republicans are the party of working and middle-class people.

You know, Bobby Kennedy has talked about this a lot, and I think he puts it better than I ever could, but that, you know, you go back even 30 years ago, and approximately 80% of the counties that represent, sorry, 80% of the wealth in American counties went in places that voted Republican and about 20% of the wealth went to places that voted Democrat.

You know, Bobby Kennedy has talked about this a lot, and I think he puts it better than I ever could, but that, you know, you go back even 30 years ago, and approximately 80% of the counties that represent, sorry, 80% of the wealth in American counties went in places that voted Republican and about 20% of the wealth went to places that voted Democrat.

Now it's 70% of the wealth goes for Democrats and about 30% of the wealth goes for Republicans. And you saw this in a big way. I mean, just one illustration is I believe that in 2012, Wall Street, which I think Wall Street fundamentally has been the main beneficiary of globalization of a lot of the policies that I pushed back against and criticized over the last 30 years.

Now it's 70% of the wealth goes for Democrats and about 30% of the wealth goes for Republicans. And you saw this in a big way. I mean, just one illustration is I believe that in 2012, Wall Street, which I think Wall Street fundamentally has been the main beneficiary of globalization of a lot of the policies that I pushed back against and criticized over the last 30 years.

Wall Street went three to one for Romney over Obama in 2012. I believe they went four to one for Trump for Clinton over Trump in 2016, and then like nine to one for Biden over Trump in 2020. So there was a massive shift in who makes up these parties. Wealthy people direct their money to Democrats as well.

Wall Street went three to one for Romney over Obama in 2012. I believe they went four to one for Trump for Clinton over Trump in 2016, and then like nine to one for Biden over Trump in 2020. So there was a massive shift in who makes up these parties. Wealthy people direct their money to Democrats as well.

Increasingly, wealthy people direct their money to Democrats, working and middle-class people direct their money to Republicans.

Increasingly, wealthy people direct their money to Democrats, working and middle-class people direct their money to Republicans.

Again, because I think their policies have benefited, look, the Uniparty, the Kamala Harris's and Dick Cheney's, their parties have benefited a certain group of people. Those people are increasingly Democrats. Donald Trump has been pushing back against that consensus in his party, in his policies, I think benefit the majority of the country.

Again, because I think their policies have benefited, look, the Uniparty, the Kamala Harris's and Dick Cheney's, their parties have benefited a certain group of people. Those people are increasingly Democrats. Donald Trump has been pushing back against that consensus in his party, in his policies, I think benefit the majority of the country.

So increasingly, I think the working middle class heart of the country is going for Republicans. Like another spin on this, because I know we're, you know, focused on tech in this conference is big tech has become increasingly pro-Democrat, little tech has become increasingly pro-Republican, right? So if you're an upstart, if you're in crypto, if you're

So increasingly, I think the working middle class heart of the country is going for Republicans. Like another spin on this, because I know we're, you know, focused on tech in this conference is big tech has become increasingly pro-Democrat, little tech has become increasingly pro-Republican, right? So if you're an upstart, if you're in crypto, if you're

If you're like a small AI company, I think you're much more likely to be pro-Republican. If you're a monopolist in big tech, I mean, look at Facebook, Google, how they're putting their resources. It's much, much more pro-Democrat. So there are a lot of different spins on it. But fundamentally, I think the people who've benefited from the American decline are becoming Democrats.

If you're like a small AI company, I think you're much more likely to be pro-Republican. If you're a monopolist in big tech, I mean, look at Facebook, Google, how they're putting their resources. It's much, much more pro-Democrat. So there are a lot of different spins on it. But fundamentally, I think the people who've benefited from the American decline are becoming Democrats.

The people who have suffered from it and are pushing back against it are Republicans.

The people who have suffered from it and are pushing back against it are Republicans.

Yeah, so this is obviously very complicated. Jason, you probably understand this better than I do. But as somebody, by the way, who's defended Lena Kahn against some of her critics from the right, I think what Lena Kahn fundamentally gets correct is that big tech really is a threat. It's a threat to free speech. It's increasingly oligarchic. It controls too much of what we're allowed to say.

Yeah, so this is obviously very complicated. Jason, you probably understand this better than I do. But as somebody, by the way, who's defended Lena Kahn against some of her critics from the right, I think what Lena Kahn fundamentally gets correct is that big tech really is a threat. It's a threat to free speech. It's increasingly oligarchic. It controls too much of what we're allowed to say.

And also, it controls a lot of the ways in which capital gets invested in these various ecosystems. But But where I think Lena Kahn goes wrong is that you're exactly right. You need the singles and doubles. You need sometimes a medium-sized company to buy a smaller company for $300 million. That liquidates founders. That gives the venture fund some money to go back into the system.

And also, it controls a lot of the ways in which capital gets invested in these various ecosystems. But But where I think Lena Kahn goes wrong is that you're exactly right. You need the singles and doubles. You need sometimes a medium-sized company to buy a smaller company for $300 million. That liquidates founders. That gives the venture fund some money to go back into the system.

And I think that... I don't know her super well, but my basic read on Lena is that she is so anti-monopoly as sort of a baseline bias, and that becomes anti-merger and acquisition as a baseline bias, that Google buying YouTube is a much, much different thing from a $2 billion market cap healthcare company buying a $500 million market cap healthcare company.

And I think that... I don't know her super well, but my basic read on Lena is that she is so anti-monopoly as sort of a baseline bias, and that becomes anti-merger and acquisition as a baseline bias, that Google buying YouTube is a much, much different thing from a $2 billion market cap healthcare company buying a $500 million market cap healthcare company.

And I think that we have to sort of draw a very big distinction between little tech and big tech. And look, I'm going to keep on making that argument both in public and private to Lena, and hopefully she comes around to our view a little bit, because I do think some of her ideas on big tech are right.

And I think that we have to sort of draw a very big distinction between little tech and big tech. And look, I'm going to keep on making that argument both in public and private to Lena, and hopefully she comes around to our view a little bit, because I do think some of her ideas on big tech are right.

Well, I think the reason why it's so difficult right now, and I mean, look, generally, I agree that, okay, we're going to let some immigrants in. We want them to be high talent, high quality people. You don't want to let a large number of illegal aliens in. Obviously, that's President Trump's view.

Well, I think the reason why it's so difficult right now, and I mean, look, generally, I agree that, okay, we're going to let some immigrants in. We want them to be high talent, high quality people. You don't want to let a large number of illegal aliens in. Obviously, that's President Trump's view.

But I think that the reason why it's so broken down right now is because you have 25 million illegal aliens in this country. And you can't fix what I would call the minor or sort of less important immigration question that until you fix the real problem. And part of that goes back, by the way, to the way in which the system got broken in the first place.

But I think that the reason why it's so broken down right now is because you have 25 million illegal aliens in this country. And you can't fix what I would call the minor or sort of less important immigration question that until you fix the real problem. And part of that goes back, by the way, to the way in which the system got broken in the first place.

So Ronald Reagan, of course, great governor of California, a great president, but Reagan did in 1986 a massive amnesty program where in some ways he was trying to do exactly what you're talking about. Fix the problem of people who are already here, make sure that our immigration system is more pro-skill, but also close down the border.

So Ronald Reagan, of course, great governor of California, a great president, but Reagan did in 1986 a massive amnesty program where in some ways he was trying to do exactly what you're talking about. Fix the problem of people who are already here, make sure that our immigration system is more pro-skill, but also close down the border.

And what happened is we got all the amnesty, but we didn't get the closing down of the borders. And so in order to do anything, I think, meaningful on immigration policy, meaning legal immigration policy, you've got to close down the border and establish some basic order.

And what happened is we got all the amnesty, but we didn't get the closing down of the borders. And so in order to do anything, I think, meaningful on immigration policy, meaning legal immigration policy, you've got to close down the border and establish some basic order.

And to go back to first principles here, I think that people who are generally, I mean, look, this is, I'm sure, a very diverse crowd. And I'm sure there are a lot of immigrants in this crowd, legal immigrants, hopefully. I'm married to the daughter. I'm married to the daughter of legal immigrants to this country. And I, of course, love not just my wife, but the whole extended family.

And to go back to first principles here, I think that people who are generally, I mean, look, this is, I'm sure, a very diverse crowd. And I'm sure there are a lot of immigrants in this crowd, legal immigrants, hopefully. I'm married to the daughter. I'm married to the daughter of legal immigrants to this country. And I, of course, love not just my wife, but the whole extended family.

I do think they've brought a lot to this country. But here's the thing. When you allow 25 million people into this country, it breaks down the entire social compact, right? So think about this. Okay, you're down on your luck. You lost your job. You get unemployment insurance. You're really down on your luck. You need food assistance from the federal government.

I do think they've brought a lot to this country. But here's the thing. When you allow 25 million people into this country, it breaks down the entire social compact, right? So think about this. Okay, you're down on your luck. You lost your job. You get unemployment insurance. You're really down on your luck. You need food assistance from the federal government.

I believe, as a conservative, that part of being in the same American family, whether your family's been here for a generation or 10 generations— is that we support people who are down on the luck. We don't want a cradle to grave welfare state, but we want to support people. We don't want kids who are dying because of starvation, because of no fault of their own.

I believe, as a conservative, that part of being in the same American family, whether your family's been here for a generation or 10 generations— is that we support people who are down on the luck. We don't want a cradle to grave welfare state, but we want to support people. We don't want kids who are dying because of starvation, because of no fault of their own.

We want to promote some basic fairness, and we want to help people out when times get tough. But you can't do that if you extend that generosity to tens of millions of people who can't even be here in the first place. And I think that what Kamala Harris has done at the border, it's not just bad economically. It's not just bad for public safety.

We want to promote some basic fairness, and we want to help people out when times get tough. But you can't do that if you extend that generosity to tens of millions of people who can't even be here in the first place. And I think that what Kamala Harris has done at the border, it's not just bad economically. It's not just bad for public safety.

She has eroded the very foundation of the social contract in this country. And we talk about division in our politics, and Kamala has this ridiculous slogan, we're not going back. The reason why politics is so divided is because she has turned American citizens against one another while she's placed the interests of illegal aliens above American citizens.

She has eroded the very foundation of the social contract in this country. And we talk about division in our politics, and Kamala has this ridiculous slogan, we're not going back. The reason why politics is so divided is because she has turned American citizens against one another while she's placed the interests of illegal aliens above American citizens.

You want to turn the page and get back to common American citizenship? Stop putting illegal aliens to the front of the line of American citizens.

You want to turn the page and get back to common American citizenship? Stop putting illegal aliens to the front of the line of American citizens.

Yeah, I mean, empathy is different than guilt. It's all of these things, right? I mean, so let me tell you a brief story. And this goes back to my changing my mind on Donald Trump. I was probably, it's probably 2017, 2018. I was at a business conference and I happened to be seated next to one of the largest hotel chain CEOs in America. And my wife was there.

Yeah, I mean, empathy is different than guilt. It's all of these things, right? I mean, so let me tell you a brief story. And this goes back to my changing my mind on Donald Trump. I was probably, it's probably 2017, 2018. I was at a business conference and I happened to be seated next to one of the largest hotel chain CEOs in America. And my wife was there.

And we talk about this as the monopoly story because the guy is just going off. Maybe he'd had too much to drink. He's going off about how Donald Trump's immigration policies had forced him to raise the wages of his workers. And I was like, oh, that's an interesting fact. Like, explain more about this, sir. Please, I want to understand. And he said, well, because we can hire a lot of immigrants.

And we talk about this as the monopoly story because the guy is just going off. Maybe he'd had too much to drink. He's going off about how Donald Trump's immigration policies had forced him to raise the wages of his workers. And I was like, oh, that's an interesting fact. Like, explain more about this, sir. Please, I want to understand. And he said, well, because we can hire a lot of immigrants.

And frankly, we can hire a lot of illegal immigrants under the table. And we can't do that because there are fewer illegal immigrants. So we have to pay our American citizen workers more money. And I'm like, oh, shit, that sounds pretty good, actually. Isn't that like what we want is for people to be earning higher wages for doing a good job? So there's definitely an economic piece of it.

And frankly, we can hire a lot of illegal immigrants under the table. And we can't do that because there are fewer illegal immigrants. So we have to pay our American citizen workers more money. And I'm like, oh, shit, that sounds pretty good, actually. Isn't that like what we want is for people to be earning higher wages for doing a good job? So there's definitely an economic piece of it.

But I also think, I mean, look, this is chilled out a little bit, partially because we're in election year. If Kamala Harris won, I think it would come back with a vengeance. But I think

But I also think, I mean, look, this is chilled out a little bit, partially because we're in election year. If Kamala Harris won, I think it would come back with a vengeance. But I think

about all these like ridiculous land acknowledgements right where people say well you know I want to acknowledge that this belong to like this tribe before I was here and if you genuinely think that you have to acknowledge a Native American tribe from 300 years ago then one attitude that comes along with this is why can I control at all who comes into the country right I have no right there's this basic I think this is the empathy it's the guilt it's sort of all these things I

about all these like ridiculous land acknowledgements right where people say well you know I want to acknowledge that this belong to like this tribe before I was here and if you genuinely think that you have to acknowledge a Native American tribe from 300 years ago then one attitude that comes along with this is why can I control at all who comes into the country right I have no right there's this basic I think this is the empathy it's the guilt it's sort of all these things I

I have no right to say who comes into my community. And I think, again, it's deranged. But I think that's part of it. I think the economic piece of it is part of it. It's certainly a vote argument. I mean, Democrats will say this. Of course, Republicans are accused of racism. for just repeating what Democrats have said.

I have no right to say who comes into my community. And I think, again, it's deranged. But I think that's part of it. I think the economic piece of it is part of it. It's certainly a vote argument. I mean, Democrats will say this. Of course, Republicans are accused of racism. for just repeating what Democrats have said.

When somebody like Chuck Schumer says, well, you know, we're going to have an emerging Democratic majority because we're going to have all these new immigrants and all the old Americans, well, they're going to vote for Republicans, but we're going to replace them with a bunch of new people who vote for Democrats. It's like, that's pretty sick.

When somebody like Chuck Schumer says, well, you know, we're going to have an emerging Democratic majority because we're going to have all these new immigrants and all the old Americans, well, they're going to vote for Republicans, but we're going to replace them with a bunch of new people who vote for Democrats. It's like, that's pretty sick.

But again, if you call it out, you're somehow a racist, even though Chuck Schumer is himself calling it out as if it were a good thing.

But again, if you call it out, you're somehow a racist, even though Chuck Schumer is himself calling it out as if it were a good thing.

Well, Jason, it's... I like it.

Well, Jason, it's... I like it.

I do. Though...

I do. Though...

You did say that. I think Jason should be on the left and David should be on my right. He's been pulling me to the right.

You did say that. I think Jason should be on the left and David should be on my right. He's been pulling me to the right.

I'm on the left right now, but I could go right. Okay, yeah, I guess it depends on perspective. It's my perspective here. It's good debate prep, right? But, you know, Jason, if the VC thing doesn't work out, you'd make a great panelist at CNN. Oh! By the way, I love this.

I'm on the left right now, but I could go right. Okay, yeah, I guess it depends on perspective. It's my perspective here. It's good debate prep, right? But, you know, Jason, if the VC thing doesn't work out, you'd make a great panelist at CNN. Oh! By the way, I love this.

And I genuinely think this is what a person who wants to be your vice president should actually do is answer some tough questions. I do give you credit for that.

And I genuinely think this is what a person who wants to be your vice president should actually do is answer some tough questions. I do give you credit for that.

Tell me about dragging millions of people out of the country. Here's why I find this question a little off and I will answer it, but it's like somebody who comes to me and I'm like eating my lunch and they say, look, that sandwich is 10 times the size of your mouth. How are you possibly going to eat that whole sandwich?

Tell me about dragging millions of people out of the country. Here's why I find this question a little off and I will answer it, but it's like somebody who comes to me and I'm like eating my lunch and they say, look, that sandwich is 10 times the size of your mouth. How are you possibly going to eat that whole sandwich?

And it's like, well, I'm going to take a first bite and then I'm going to take a second bite. And I want to take a third bite. And eventually the problem is going to be, look, you start out with a million people who are what we call criminal migrants, people who have committed violent crimes in some form or another. Get them out of our country.

And it's like, well, I'm going to take a first bite and then I'm going to take a second bite. And I want to take a third bite. And eventually the problem is going to be, look, you start out with a million people who are what we call criminal migrants, people who have committed violent crimes in some form or another. Get them out of our country.

Yes, handcuff those people and force them out of the country. But you also do other things simultaneously. First of all, you stop the bleeding, right? You undo Kamala Harris's policies that opened the southern border in the first place. I've got a piece of legislation in the United States Senate that we've got a lot of colleagues who have signed up for it, which would tax remittances, right?

Yes, handcuff those people and force them out of the country. But you also do other things simultaneously. First of all, you stop the bleeding, right? You undo Kamala Harris's policies that opened the southern border in the first place. I've got a piece of legislation in the United States Senate that we've got a lot of colleagues who have signed up for it, which would tax remittances, right?

Well, you know, first of all, thanks all for having me. I've been a big fan of the pod for a while. I think my first appearance, so it's good to be with you. You know, the only thing I'll say to that, David, is I do think there is a deep connection between the poverty that I saw growing up and the fact that our entire economy is just less innovative than we pretend that it is.

Well, you know, first of all, thanks all for having me. I've been a big fan of the pod for a while. I think my first appearance, so it's good to be with you. You know, the only thing I'll say to that, David, is I do think there is a deep connection between the poverty that I saw growing up and the fact that our entire economy is just less innovative than we pretend that it is.

Because we know a lot of people are earning money and then sending it back to Central America or wherever they came from. If you end that practice, then you have a lot of people who go back willingly. I think you ought to make it harder for people to hire illegal labor as opposed to American citizens. You tick through these things.

Because we know a lot of people are earning money and then sending it back to Central America or wherever they came from. If you end that practice, then you have a lot of people who go back willingly. I think you ought to make it harder for people to hire illegal labor as opposed to American citizens. You tick through these things.

And I do think that, you know, that's the sandwich approach to this is you try to take it one step at a time. But the most important thing And I think the deportations focus, again, it is important because we're eventually, we are going to deport people. But the most important thing is to stop the bleeding.

And I do think that, you know, that's the sandwich approach to this is you try to take it one step at a time. But the most important thing And I think the deportations focus, again, it is important because we're eventually, we are going to deport people. But the most important thing is to stop the bleeding.

You've got to stop the millions of people flowing across the southern border every single year. It happened because of Kamala Harris's policies. It's going to stop when Donald Trump is president.

You've got to stop the millions of people flowing across the southern border every single year. It happened because of Kamala Harris's policies. It's going to stop when Donald Trump is president.

Yeah, so, well, part of the reason it's happening is that— Right, it's not Hondurans necessarily. No, no, that's right. It's Iranians. It's Iranians. It's people from all over Asia, Africa, Europe. I mean, look, if you look at this, that is the open door, right? So if you want to come to this country, that is the open door. And God knows why some of them want to be here.

Yeah, so, well, part of the reason it's happening is that— Right, it's not Hondurans necessarily. No, no, that's right. It's Iranians. It's Iranians. It's people from all over Asia, Africa, Europe. I mean, look, if you look at this, that is the open door, right? So if you want to come to this country, that is the open door. And God knows why some of them want to be here.

I mean, given what's going on in the Middle East, I do worry about military-age males from Iran coming into this country through the American southern border. But, you know, I actually asked a border patrol agent about this on one of my visits. And, you know, great guy was actually kind of heartbroken because he signed up to protect his country. And he's a relatively recent immigrant.

I mean, given what's going on in the Middle East, I do worry about military-age males from Iran coming into this country through the American southern border. But, you know, I actually asked a border patrol agent about this on one of my visits. And, you know, great guy was actually kind of heartbroken because he signed up to protect his country. And he's a relatively recent immigrant.

I could tell that by his accent. Guy's like very nervous. And very heartbroken about the fact that he can't do his job. And he told me this story and I feel like an idiot in hindsight because he's like, we have a guy who came in here. I asked the guy like, why do you think this guy's Iranian? And he said, well, because he came through and he said that he was Mexican.

I could tell that by his accent. Guy's like very nervous. And very heartbroken about the fact that he can't do his job. And he told me this story and I feel like an idiot in hindsight because he's like, we have a guy who came in here. I asked the guy like, why do you think this guy's Iranian? And he said, well, because he came through and he said that he was Mexican.

And I was like, well, couldn't he have been Mexican? And he said, well, he didn't speak Spanish. It's like, oh, that's a tell. You know, guy comes from Mexico, illegal alien, doesn't speak Spanish. That's probably a pretty significant tell. But it's happening because this is what Kamala Harris has done. She's created this massive gap in our national security and people are taking advantage of it.

And I was like, well, couldn't he have been Mexican? And he said, well, he didn't speak Spanish. It's like, oh, that's a tell. You know, guy comes from Mexico, illegal alien, doesn't speak Spanish. That's probably a pretty significant tell. But it's happening because this is what Kamala Harris has done. She's created this massive gap in our national security and people are taking advantage of it.

It's really not that surprising.

It's really not that surprising.

And, you know, I know, you know, Peter Thiel and Tyler Cowen and other folks have talked about this, but if you look at the real innovation in the American economy, it's been in the world of software.

And, you know, I know, you know, Peter Thiel and Tyler Cowen and other folks have talked about this, but if you look at the real innovation in the American economy, it's been in the world of software.

Well, so there's a lot there. And let me try to sort of take a few pieces of it because I know we're relatively short on time. So number one is the energy piece of it's very important. Part of the way that you reshore American manufacturing is that you open up American energy. It matters for crypto. It matters for AI.

Well, so there's a lot there. And let me try to sort of take a few pieces of it because I know we're relatively short on time. So number one is the energy piece of it's very important. Part of the way that you reshore American manufacturing is that you open up American energy. It matters for crypto. It matters for AI.

You've got to open up American energy or you're never going to have, whether it's the next generation of manufactured goods or the past generations, you've got to open up American energy. energy. Okay. That's number one. Number two is, look, I don't want to go to war with China. I think it would be hugely destructive, but I do think that we have to reshore more American manufacturing.

You've got to open up American energy or you're never going to have, whether it's the next generation of manufactured goods or the past generations, you've got to open up American energy. energy. Okay. That's number one. Number two is, look, I don't want to go to war with China. I think it would be hugely destructive, but I do think that we have to reshore more American manufacturing.

And one of the weird things about China, if you think about past eras of developing nations, right? So go back to like when the UK was the most advanced economy in the world and America was a developing nation. Well, one of the things that happened is that capital was flowing from the UK into the United States, from the developed into the developing nation.

And one of the weird things about China, if you think about past eras of developing nations, right? So go back to like when the UK was the most advanced economy in the world and America was a developing nation. Well, one of the things that happened is that capital was flowing from the UK into the United States, from the developed into the developing nation.

What's really weird about China is that it's like Americans borrow money from Chinese peasants, to then buy the things the Chinese peasants are making for us, right? So it's not just the goods flow that's jacked up, it's the capital flows that are jacked up.

What's really weird about China is that it's like Americans borrow money from Chinese peasants, to then buy the things the Chinese peasants are making for us, right? So it's not just the goods flow that's jacked up, it's the capital flows that are jacked up.

If you look at where the economy has been most stagnant, it's been in basically the heavily regulated parts of the economy, which is where 90% of the people that I represent in the Senate and 80% of the people that I hope to represent as their vice president actually make their living, run their business, and go to work every single day.

If you look at where the economy has been most stagnant, it's been in basically the heavily regulated parts of the economy, which is where 90% of the people that I represent in the Senate and 80% of the people that I hope to represent as their vice president actually make their living, run their business, and go to work every single day.

And I really think that the next, you know, Donald Trump is going to be the next president of the United States, and this is something we're going to have to figure out, is that you need to balance both the capital and the goods flows, okay?

And I really think that the next, you know, Donald Trump is going to be the next president of the United States, and this is something we're going to have to figure out, is that you need to balance both the capital and the goods flows, okay?

I'm not saying we're going to have absolutely no trade with China, but right now the relationship is fundamentally that the Chinese have figured out they can create a massively powerful producerist society while America becomes a weaker, weaker consumerist society.

I'm not saying we're going to have absolutely no trade with China, but right now the relationship is fundamentally that the Chinese have figured out they can create a massively powerful producerist society while America becomes a weaker, weaker consumerist society.

That is the broken nature of the relationship, and I think rebalancing is the right way to think about it, but we have got to do it, and I think we're way, way behind the airport.

That is the broken nature of the relationship, and I think rebalancing is the right way to think about it, but we have got to do it, and I think we're way, way behind the airport.

Yeah, I mean, I really do think that we have to recognize that we have massively over-regulated the real world, right? Over-regulated transportation, over-regulated energy, over-regulated home construction.

Yeah, I mean, I really do think that we have to recognize that we have massively over-regulated the real world, right? Over-regulated transportation, over-regulated energy, over-regulated home construction.

I don't know how easy it is to get another 300 bps of growth, but I think you could get a lot more growth, whether it's 300 or 150, just by massively reducing the amount of regulatory burden in the real economy. And again, I'm an optimist. I'm fundamentally an optimist on both crypto... blockchain, Web3 stuff, but also on AI.

I don't know how easy it is to get another 300 bps of growth, but I think you could get a lot more growth, whether it's 300 or 150, just by massively reducing the amount of regulatory burden in the real economy. And again, I'm an optimist. I'm fundamentally an optimist on both crypto... blockchain, Web3 stuff, but also on AI.

One of the real conceits of the 30 years of globalization that I think was really, really deranged and hindsight very wrong, Bob Lighthizer, who is Trump's trade representative, talks a lot about this, is we had this conceit that we could separate the manufacture of things from the design of things, right?

One of the real conceits of the 30 years of globalization that I think was really, really deranged and hindsight very wrong, Bob Lighthizer, who is Trump's trade representative, talks a lot about this, is we had this conceit that we could separate the manufacture of things from the design of things, right?

So if you get an iPhone right now and you get it out of the box, you will see that it says designed in Cupertino, California. Of course, the implication is that it's manufactured in Shenzhen or wherever they're manufacturing iPhones these days. The idea that the iPhone is designed in Cupertino is increasingly no longer even true.

So if you get an iPhone right now and you get it out of the box, you will see that it says designed in Cupertino, California. Of course, the implication is that it's manufactured in Shenzhen or wherever they're manufacturing iPhones these days. The idea that the iPhone is designed in Cupertino is increasingly no longer even true.

It's something that we lie to ourselves about because the people who are doing all the manufacturing of the hardware of the iPhone are getting much better at design and innovation. And part of the reason why I care so much about this manufacturing thing is whether it's antibiotics, for example. Why hasn't America invented an antibiotic in 30 years?

It's something that we lie to ourselves about because the people who are doing all the manufacturing of the hardware of the iPhone are getting much better at design and innovation. And part of the reason why I care so much about this manufacturing thing is whether it's antibiotics, for example. Why hasn't America invented an antibiotic in 30 years?

And I think that when I think about tech, one of the things I'd like us to do is broaden the aperture a little bit and think about innovation not just in software, but innovation in transportation and logistics and innovation in

And I think that when I think about tech, one of the things I'd like us to do is broaden the aperture a little bit and think about innovation not just in software, but innovation in transportation and logistics and innovation in

It probably has something to do with the manufacture of antibiotics is done almost entirely in very low cost manufacturing areas. You can go through a whole host of goods like this, but if you want to build a high tech, high dynamic growth economy, you have to have some native manufacturing and some self-reliance. And so these two things are very related.

It probably has something to do with the manufacture of antibiotics is done almost entirely in very low cost manufacturing areas. You can go through a whole host of goods like this, but if you want to build a high tech, high dynamic growth economy, you have to have some native manufacturing and some self-reliance. And so these two things are very related.

And I think it's a big part of getting back to four or 5% growth is accepting that, yes, we're going to have trade, but we can't let everybody make all of our stuff.

And I think it's a big part of getting back to four or 5% growth is accepting that, yes, we're going to have trade, but we can't let everybody make all of our stuff.

And energy and the whole suite of things, because unless our economy is actually technologically innovative, then the stagnant economy is fundamentally like the worst thing. And I think a lot of actually America's pathologies right now stem from the fact that we feel like we live in a very zero-sum country, because in some ways we do. Right.

And energy and the whole suite of things, because unless our economy is actually technologically innovative, then the stagnant economy is fundamentally like the worst thing. And I think a lot of actually America's pathologies right now stem from the fact that we feel like we live in a very zero-sum country, because in some ways we do. Right.

Well, and by the way, available wherever books are sold.

Well, and by the way, available wherever books are sold.

Do you have an affiliate? 529 account for the kids. Can I just, just two things. First of all, Jason, I appreciate what you said, but I also just want to defend my running mate here because I think that Again, the media doesn't often tell you the truth about Donald Trump. Donald Trump cares more about the details of public policy than almost anyone I've ever met in public life.

Do you have an affiliate? 529 account for the kids. Can I just, just two things. First of all, Jason, I appreciate what you said, but I also just want to defend my running mate here because I think that Again, the media doesn't often tell you the truth about Donald Trump. Donald Trump cares more about the details of public policy than almost anyone I've ever met in public life.

That's actually real. He thinks about how this stuff affects the real economy and real Americans. So if you're on the fence, whether you like what I said or dislike what I said, I just encourage you, listen to what he actually says, because I think that you'll become a believer that he can make the country great again, as he promises. But separate from that, I just want to say

That's actually real. He thinks about how this stuff affects the real economy and real Americans. So if you're on the fence, whether you like what I said or dislike what I said, I just encourage you, listen to what he actually says, because I think that you'll become a believer that he can make the country great again, as he promises. But separate from that, I just want to say

This is such an important conversation and you guys hold and host important conversations every single day. We should do more of it as a country, but I'm glad to participate today. God bless everyone. Thank you.

This is such an important conversation and you guys hold and host important conversations every single day. We should do more of it as a country, but I'm glad to participate today. God bless everyone. Thank you.

When the economy is growing four or five, six percent a year, then Democrats can kind of get what they want. Republicans can kind of get what they want. And it all makes sense. If the economy is growing between zero and one percent a year, then I think it makes the whole society and our political system much, much more insane.

When the economy is growing four or five, six percent a year, then Democrats can kind of get what they want. Republicans can kind of get what they want. And it all makes sense. If the economy is growing between zero and one percent a year, then I think it makes the whole society and our political system much, much more insane.

And I think that's kind of a subtext of what's been going on in this country for the last 30 years.

And I think that's kind of a subtext of what's been going on in this country for the last 30 years.

Yeah. So first of all, when Biden was running against Trump, one of the things the media tried to do is to say, well, you know, you have these two guys who are a little bit older than average and both of them clearly aren't fully with it. And I would hear the media talk about Biden like this and then talk about Trump like this.

Yeah. So first of all, when Biden was running against Trump, one of the things the media tried to do is to say, well, you know, you have these two guys who are a little bit older than average and both of them clearly aren't fully with it. And I would hear the media talk about Biden like this and then talk about Trump like this.

And it's like, guys, Donald Trump remembers exactly what I said about him nine and a half years ago to the minute, to the day, to the exact line. Like, trust me, his memory is 100% there, even if it would be more in my interest if it wasn't. And, you know, what changed for me, I mean, two things.

And it's like, guys, Donald Trump remembers exactly what I said about him nine and a half years ago to the minute, to the day, to the exact line. Like, trust me, his memory is 100% there, even if it would be more in my interest if it wasn't. And, you know, what changed for me, I mean, two things.

One, Chamath, you just sort of hit on this, is a lot of the things the press said about Donald Trump and says about Donald Trump are just straight-up fabrications. And so if you think the press is, like, biased, that's one thing.

One, Chamath, you just sort of hit on this, is a lot of the things the press said about Donald Trump and says about Donald Trump are just straight-up fabrications. And so if you think the press is, like, biased, that's one thing.

But if you think the press is fundamentally trying to tell you the truth, even if it's in a biased way, and then you realize that, like, Donald Trump never called white supremacists very fine people after Charlottesville.

But if you think the press is fundamentally trying to tell you the truth, even if it's in a biased way, and then you realize that, like, Donald Trump never called white supremacists very fine people after Charlottesville.

a total fabrication of the american media it's like okay what other things am i hearing about donald trump that are actually not true right the second thing is you know we talked about this a little bit last night but look if you go back to the date of my or the year of my birth which is 1984 there's this chart that's really interesting and it tracks corporate profits the

a total fabrication of the american media it's like okay what other things am i hearing about donald trump that are actually not true right the second thing is you know we talked about this a little bit last night but look if you go back to the date of my or the year of my birth which is 1984 there's this chart that's really interesting and it tracks corporate profits the

the wages of workers and the size of government. And for pretty much my entire life, the wages of workers were stagnant, corporate profits were going up, and the size of government was going up. And there was a four year period where the wages of workers outpaced the size of government corporate profits. It's the four years that Donald Trump was president.

the wages of workers and the size of government. And for pretty much my entire life, the wages of workers were stagnant, corporate profits were going up, and the size of government was going up. And there was a four year period where the wages of workers outpaced the size of government corporate profits. It's the four years that Donald Trump was president.

And I think that we have to like give some credit where it's due, the policies actually work.

And I think that we have to like give some credit where it's due, the policies actually work.

And if you go into the presidency saying, I don't think Donald Trump's going to be a good president, and then lo and behold, he's the best president at least in a generation, it's like, okay, time to change my mind, admit to myself, but also to all the people who listen to me, I was wrong about Donald Trump. He was a hell of a good president.

And if you go into the presidency saying, I don't think Donald Trump's going to be a good president, and then lo and behold, he's the best president at least in a generation, it's like, okay, time to change my mind, admit to myself, but also to all the people who listen to me, I was wrong about Donald Trump. He was a hell of a good president.

Of course, I'm running as his running mate, because I think he'll do it again.

Of course, I'm running as his running mate, because I think he'll do it again.

You know, I think the president, one thing I'll say about him is, again, the media perception of Donald Trump is that he's like this deeply... a grieved guy who holds really terrible grudges. The actual reality of Donald Trump is that, yeah, he remembers what you said about him because it's like part of the inputs that he takes as he tries to evaluate a human being.

You know, I think the president, one thing I'll say about him is, again, the media perception of Donald Trump is that he's like this deeply... a grieved guy who holds really terrible grudges. The actual reality of Donald Trump is that, yeah, he remembers what you said about him because it's like part of the inputs that he takes as he tries to evaluate a human being.

But most importantly, he's asking like, what can you do now? How can you help the country now? How can you help me as I try to help the country now? And I think for whatever complicated set of factors, he decided that I was the guy who could help him the most. But no, I mean, it is interesting that,

But most importantly, he's asking like, what can you do now? How can you help the country now? How can you help me as I try to help the country now? And I think for whatever complicated set of factors, he decided that I was the guy who could help him the most. But no, I mean, it is interesting that,

The perception of him as this guy who holds grudges, he selected a guy who was very much a critic of his back in 2015 as his running mate. Clearly something doesn't make sense. And I think that what doesn't make sense is this idea that Trump is more motivated by grievance than he is by the public interest. He's actually much more motivated by the public interest. That's the truth.

The perception of him as this guy who holds grudges, he selected a guy who was very much a critic of his back in 2015 as his running mate. Clearly something doesn't make sense. And I think that what doesn't make sense is this idea that Trump is more motivated by grievance than he is by the public interest. He's actually much more motivated by the public interest. That's the truth.

Well, I think it's, let me take issue with the premise a little bit, Jason, because I don't think the argument was Mike Pence could overturn the election results. I think the argument was that Mike Pence could have done more, whether you agree or disagree, Mike Pence could have done more to sort of surface some of the problems in the 2020 election. Would you have not certified the election?

Well, I think it's, let me take issue with the premise a little bit, Jason, because I don't think the argument was Mike Pence could overturn the election results. I think the argument was that Mike Pence could have done more, whether you agree or disagree, Mike Pence could have done more to sort of surface some of the problems in the 2020 election. Would you have not certified the election?

Well, I think that what I would have done, I mean, look, I happen to think that there were issues back in 2020, particularly in Pennsylvania. Even some of the courts that refused to throw out certified ballots did say that there were ballots that were cast in an illegal way. They just refused to actually decertify the election results in Pennsylvania.

Well, I think that what I would have done, I mean, look, I happen to think that there were issues back in 2020, particularly in Pennsylvania. Even some of the courts that refused to throw out certified ballots did say that there were ballots that were cast in an illegal way. They just refused to actually decertify the election results in Pennsylvania.

Do I think that we could have had a much more rational conversation about how to ensure that only legal ballots are cast? Yes. And do I think that Mike Pence could have played a better role? Yes. But again, the two premises that I take issue on is, one, Pence was not asked to overturn the election. He couldn't have. But two, the reason— He was asked to not certify it. Sure.

Do I think that we could have had a much more rational conversation about how to ensure that only legal ballots are cast? Yes. And do I think that Mike Pence could have played a better role? Yes. But again, the two premises that I take issue on is, one, Pence was not asked to overturn the election. He couldn't have. But two, the reason— He was asked to not certify it. Sure.

Again, I would have asked the states to submit alternative slates of electors and let the country have the debate about what actually matters and what kind of an election that we have in these important states.

Again, I would have asked the states to submit alternative slates of electors and let the country have the debate about what actually matters and what kind of an election that we have in these important states.

I would have asked the states to submit alternative slates of electors. That's what I would have done. Again, I've said that publicly many times. But again, Jason, the important part is we would have had a big debate.

I would have asked the states to submit alternative slates of electors. That's what I would have done. Again, I've said that publicly many times. But again, Jason, the important part is we would have had a big debate.

And it doesn't necessarily mean the results would have been any different, but we at least would have had the debate in Pennsylvania and Georgia about how to better have a rational election system where legal ballots are cast. And again, I, you know, look, I have no personal problem with Mike Pence. I've never really talked to him.

And it doesn't necessarily mean the results would have been any different, but we at least would have had the debate in Pennsylvania and Georgia about how to better have a rational election system where legal ballots are cast. And again, I, you know, look, I have no personal problem with Mike Pence. I've never really talked to him.

But I think that the idea that the reason Mike Pence isn't on board with Donald Trump is over the election of 2020. That's the other thing I want to take issue with, Jason, because I think in reality that if Donald Trump wanted to start a nuclear war with Russia, Mike Pence would be at the front of the line endorsing him right now.

But I think that the idea that the reason Mike Pence isn't on board with Donald Trump is over the election of 2020. That's the other thing I want to take issue with, Jason, because I think in reality that if Donald Trump wanted to start a nuclear war with Russia, Mike Pence would be at the front of the line endorsing him right now.

And fundamentally, the reason the old guard of the Republican Party hates Donald Trump, it's not because of January the 6th, 2021, whatever your views on it. It's because Donald Trump doesn't think that we should start stupid wars in foreign countries. And that's why they all hate him.

And fundamentally, the reason the old guard of the Republican Party hates Donald Trump, it's not because of January the 6th, 2021, whatever your views on it. It's because Donald Trump doesn't think that we should start stupid wars in foreign countries. And that's why they all hate him.

I want to hear David, especially if he gets me out of answering tough questions.

I want to hear David, especially if he gets me out of answering tough questions.

Let's talk about January 6th for the next 45 minutes. I'm sure it's the most important thing going on in the country right now.

Let's talk about January 6th for the next 45 minutes. I'm sure it's the most important thing going on in the country right now.

For those of you who are really bad at context clues, I'm JD Vance. I'm running for vice president.

For those of you who are really bad at context clues, I'm JD Vance. I'm running for vice president.

So I agree with you. And let me just say, let me say two things and I'll try to answer briefly because I know there are a lot of topics that we can get through. So number one is one of the things that our government should do, obviously, I think it should be doing less than it currently does, but what it does, I want it to do well.

So I agree with you. And let me just say, let me say two things and I'll try to answer briefly because I know there are a lot of topics that we can get through. So number one is one of the things that our government should do, obviously, I think it should be doing less than it currently does, but what it does, I want it to do well.

And most importantly, I want the critical social welfare functions of our government to go to the people who actually deserve to be here. So as a United States Senator, I have asked multiple staff members, I've asked officials in various government departments to

And most importantly, I want the critical social welfare functions of our government to go to the people who actually deserve to be here. So as a United States Senator, I have asked multiple staff members, I've asked officials in various government departments to

If you take the give or take 25 million illegal aliens that are here in this country right now, how much money do we spend on illegal aliens every single year in this country? And I've gotten estimates that range between $100 billion a year to $600 billion a year. And where does that money come from?

If you take the give or take 25 million illegal aliens that are here in this country right now, how much money do we spend on illegal aliens every single year in this country? And I've gotten estimates that range between $100 billion a year to $600 billion a year. And where does that money come from?

Well, it comes from healthcare benefits, even though illegal aliens aren't entitled to Section 8 housing. Their children are entitled to Section 8 housing. There's also a lot of Social Security fraud, a lot of Medicare fraud. So one thing that we could save a lot of money on

Well, it comes from healthcare benefits, even though illegal aliens aren't entitled to Section 8 housing. Their children are entitled to Section 8 housing. There's also a lot of Social Security fraud, a lot of Medicare fraud. So one thing that we could save a lot of money on

is actually focusing our national interest on American citizens, people who deserve to be here, we'd save a lot of money that way. That'd be a huge and transformative thing.

is actually focusing our national interest on American citizens, people who deserve to be here, we'd save a lot of money that way. That'd be a huge and transformative thing.

If you call it a $1.7 trillion deficit, right, again, it's between $100 billion to $600 billion, depending on how you cut the numbers. Now, the other thing about that, just to answer your question about efficiency, is I think the government procurement process, especially in military equipment, is really broken.

If you call it a $1.7 trillion deficit, right, again, it's between $100 billion to $600 billion, depending on how you cut the numbers. Now, the other thing about that, just to answer your question about efficiency, is I think the government procurement process, especially in military equipment, is really broken.

That's right. She's at like the tar pits or whatever. Yeah. Oh, yeah. We brought our three kids out here. So she wanted to take and see some fossil stuff.

That's right. She's at like the tar pits or whatever. Yeah. Oh, yeah. We brought our three kids out here. So she wanted to take and see some fossil stuff.

If you go back to Eisenhower's warning about the military-industrial complex, I mean, I was a seed investor in Anduril. I imagine you guys have some Anduril people here today. We had Palmer Luckey here two years ago. Great company.

If you go back to Eisenhower's warning about the military-industrial complex, I mean, I was a seed investor in Anduril. I imagine you guys have some Anduril people here today. We had Palmer Luckey here two years ago. Great company.

Yeah. You know, one of the things that that company, as I haven't talked to the guys about the details of the business in the last few years, but one of the things that they founded the company on was the idea that the procurement process was broken. And that is definitely true in the, you know, We do way too much cost plus procurement and way too little actual spurring of innovation.

Yeah. You know, one of the things that that company, as I haven't talked to the guys about the details of the business in the last few years, but one of the things that they founded the company on was the idea that the procurement process was broken. And that is definitely true in the, you know, We do way too much cost plus procurement and way too little actual spurring of innovation.

And what it ends up meaning is that our equipment isn't as good as it should be, and we end up spending a lot more money than we should be. I actually do think you could cut the American defense budget and make our country stronger, but you would have to make the procurement process much more efficient. Now, that's a big thing to tackle, but that's what we're in this business doing.

And what it ends up meaning is that our equipment isn't as good as it should be, and we end up spending a lot more money than we should be. I actually do think you could cut the American defense budget and make our country stronger, but you would have to make the procurement process much more efficient. Now, that's a big thing to tackle, but that's what we're in this business doing.

I don't know that you have to pass legislation, but you really, as a president and vice president, you have to be willing to take on some very powerful defense contractors. And that's something that I know President Trump and I very much want to do.

I don't know that you have to pass legislation, but you really, as a president and vice president, you have to be willing to take on some very powerful defense contractors. And that's something that I know President Trump and I very much want to do.

I want to do all of the good things and none of the bad things. That's my goal as vice president. So the ribbon cuttings of the new federal... I mean, obviously joking, but the reality is that I want to be a second set of eyes and ears for the president's agenda. Right.

I want to do all of the good things and none of the bad things. That's my goal as vice president. So the ribbon cuttings of the new federal... I mean, obviously joking, but the reality is that I want to be a second set of eyes and ears for the president's agenda. Right.

One of the things that was true, and he will tell you this the first time he was he was president United States, is there were people in government. There were people in his own administration that he was a newcomer to politics. He didn't fully trust everybody who was around him.

One of the things that was true, and he will tell you this the first time he was he was president United States, is there were people in government. There were people in his own administration that he was a newcomer to politics. He didn't fully trust everybody who was around him.

We want to build a team who's actually aligned on the agenda because agree or disagree with Donald Trump on a specific policy issue, assuming the American people make him the next president. And I think that they will. that is the next president and his policy determinations should dictate the executive administration of government. If they don't, we don't have a real democracy.

We want to build a team who's actually aligned on the agenda because agree or disagree with Donald Trump on a specific policy issue, assuming the American people make him the next president. And I think that they will. that is the next president and his policy determinations should dictate the executive administration of government. If they don't, we don't have a real democracy.

Well, a couple of thoughts on this.

So first of all, I am a little bit more optimistic about automation.

And if you look at some of the doom narratives about automation, you know, the robots are coming to take all of our jobs.

If the robots were coming to take all of our jobs, you would see labor productivity skyrocketing in this country.

But you actually see labor productivity flatlining.

And what that means actually is that our country is under-indexed in technology and not over-indexed in technology.

Maybe we're over-indexed in software, but we're under-indexed in the real kind of technology that boosts productivity.

So I'm not saying there won't be job displacement, but I always think of the example of the bank teller.

In the 1970s, when the ATM machine, the automated teller machine was created,

there was a whole host of articles about how this would destroy a ton of middle-class jobs in the banking sector what actually happened is we have more bank tellers now than we did in the 1970s they do slightly different jobs and they're more productive and they earn higher wages but i think that's the story of technology productivity is fundamentally good now there is a a displacement that i worry about and i you know i was frankly not even aware this was an issue until a couple of weeks ago and i'm trying to dig into it a little bit

which is where on the one hand you see some silicon valley technology firms especially the big firms say that they are desperate for workers that they can't find for work workers that they have to use you know overseas visa programs to find workers and yet at the same time the college educated employment rate for stem graduates in this country seems to be declining yeah

Well, wait a second.

If you're not hiring American workers coming out of colleges for these jobs, then how can you say that you have a massive shortage in these jobs?

And by the way, you see some big tech companies where they'll lay off 9,000 workers

and then they'll apply for a bunch of overseas visas.

And I sort of wonder, that doesn't totally make sense to me.

That displacement and that math worries me a bit.

And what the president has said, he said very clearly, we want the very best and the brightest to make America their home.

We want them to build great companies and so forth.

But I don't want companies to fire 9,000 American workers and then to go and say, we can't find workers here in America.

That's a bullshit story in

Have you talked to them about it?

I have not.

I just became aware of this a couple weeks ago.

Somebody sent me an article about this, and they said, well, you know, and it maybe was Microsoft.

It was Microsoft.

It fired, I think, 9,000 people.

And then I was like, wait a second.

Record profits, record market cap.

but also saying they're desperate for workers.

We didn't have the resources necessary to actually process a lot of those people.

So I have not yet had that conversation with Microsoft.

In my defense, I just found out.

We'll have a conversation.

Yeah, so one, I agree with that, though.

I think it's a slightly different question, right?

You can believe that you want American firms to hire American college graduates, but then also wonder if the college education system we have in this country is broken.

That has changed because of the big, beautiful bill.

And I certainly think that it is.

I mean, you know, one, I really...

I went to Ohio State for undergrad and then Yale Law School.

When I was at Yale, I guess it was 2010 to 2013, I felt like it was a very left-leaning place, but it was still fundamentally a place where you could debate ideas, where you wouldn't be penalized for stepping outside of the orthodoxy.

We've also gotten some court case wins.

When I talked to college kids, when I talked to 21-year-olds at some of these universities,

Some of them feel like they're living in like a North Korean totalitarian style dictatorship where the social and employment costs of saying anything outside of the Overton window is so severe.

So I expect that the pace of deportations will increase a little bit.

That's not a useful social institution.

Like I want colleges to promote free thinking, even dangerous ideas, you know, challenge those ideas.

Maybe some of them are wrong.

Maybe some of them are right.

But if you as a college are actually promoting

social conventional thinking, then you're not serving your fundamental purpose.

And I think the entire university system in this country is broken because of that fact.

But importantly, when people criticize us and they say, you know, sometimes I'll hear this criticism, well, the pace of deportations from the Trump administration is actually lower than it was the Biden administration.

Yeah, so, Shabbat, if you think about the great era of American economic dominance, right, it's the 40s, it's the 50s, it's the 60s, it's when we were so far ahead of the rest of the world that, you know, economically, it just felt like nobody could possibly catch up to us.

And back in that era, one of the great things that worked was true public-private partnerships, where we let the free market, we let private industries do what private industries were really good at, but we had a discrete goal in public policy and we tried to facilitate it, right?

There were certain basic research things that didn't make sense

in a private sector context, but maybe they made sense for the country overall.

There are certain weapons systems that maybe weren't profitable.

We were going to make them profitable because they were important for American national security.

Of course, the entire moon landing is a story of a great public-private partnership that produced a whole host

of great technological development and economic benefit downstream.

I do think that we're taking a very discreet view of certain industries, of certain core technologies, certain core weapons systems, and saying the United States is not going to allow our industrial base, our technology base to atrophy anymore.

And that's actually a completely fake statistic.

You've seen some stuff out of that.

I mean, we're only six months into this thing, and I think we've done a hell of a job.

I'm obviously biased, but we're only six months into this.

You're going to see a lot more over the next three and a half years.

It's based on the fact

Well, OK, I have one David Sachs story.

But if you come into the country illegally, and then the Biden administration processes you and sends you out, that counts as a deportation.

It was actually in the Navy mess, which is sort of the cafeteria in the White House.

And we're sitting down there, and we're eating lunch.

And some young kid, I don't know if it was a White House intern or somebody, walks over.

They see David Sachs.

Oh, David Sachs.

And they were so impressed.

And they look at me, and they go, oh, shit.

It's also impressive.

Yeah.

It's so like, oh, there's the vice president.

So, you know, even for the vice president of the United States, we're all just shadows in the sun.

It counts as an illegal immigration, and then it counts as deportation.

I appreciate you guys.

We appreciate you.

Good to see you guys.

Good stuff.

Thank you.

So you have to look at the net number, right?

If you do plus one, minus one, I'm not a math expert, but I'm pretty sure that's zero.

The net number is what really matters.

And where the Trump administration, where we've been most wildly successful is that we have, I think in 2025, we will have the first net negative immigration number in about 50 or 60 years in the United States.

And so there has been a major, a major, major shift in immigration policy.

Now, again, I'm like, you know, me and Stephen Miller are probably the two most hard line people in the entire administration when it comes to immigration.

So there's always more that we can do.

And like I said, I think that there is more that we can do.

But if you just look fundamentally, what people said is that if you actually take border enforcement seriously, the entire economy is going to collapse.

Inflation is going to go through the roof.

Housing costs are going to go through the roof.

And if you look, while there's still a lot more to do, inflation has cooled.

Housing costs are now showing signs of peaking, I think, according to Zillow.

Over the past 12 months, housing costs have gone up 0.8%.

The previous, the Biden administration, they basically nearly doubled the cost of a mortgage for an average family.

So there are a lot of things that we're showing work and we're showing importantly that it turns out if you put your faith in American workers,

You can build great companies.

You can build a great economy.

You don't have to build an entire economy on illegal labor, which is what the Democrats told us we had to do.

So we're not just doing a good job.

I think we're also proving out the use case and proving out what the Trump campaign said that it was going to do in the Trump administration.

Well, first, the the Trump administration obviously is a big group of people with a lot of different opinions.

And we all have to talk about this stuff and try to come up with the right decision.

But the Trump, the administration, the decision maker is, of course, one man.

Yeah.

And while he listens to everybody, he's also going to make the decisions that he thinks are best for the country.

And then we go and execute that after, of course, having a big a big conversation around the inner circle.

You know what?

What the president has said is, number one, we're not going to do amnesty in this country.

We're actually not going to tell people who have come into the country illegally that they're allowed to break our laws and be rewarded for it.

We're just not going to do that.

But there are a whole host of other ways when we talk to agricultural industries and others where they say, well, we really need labor.

Good to see you.

Well, there are a whole host of ways in which you can try to solve those problems.

My favorite solution for those problems is automation.

David, good to see you.

Right?

I actually think there's a lot of evidence that the American agricultural economy is a little behind the eight ball when it comes to using technology.

There are ways where we're talking about facilitating the use of automation.

So we're not going to have amnesty, but we also recognize that there are a lot of industries out there we want to thrive.

And I think the president is trying to strike the right balance.

What's up, brother?

And Jason, you said something about compassion, and I think this is really important.

I do think that we have to make a stronger argument here.

There's nothing

Nice to see you.

discompassionate, where there's nothing hateful about enforcing your own borders.

It's a question of do you facilitate

Thank you, guys.

Wow.

How are you, man?

But do you facilitate these Mexican drug cartels, the drug trafficking that they're engaged in?

The hundreds of thousands, I'm not saying you would ever say this, but the hundreds of thousands of missing children under the Biden administration, the fact that some of these young girls are being sex trafficked by Mexican drug cartels, when you enforce the nation's border laws, that is the most compassionate thing to do, both for your own people, but also for the people who are legally trafficked.

Good to see you.

How you doing?

Good.

So the last time I did this podcast, I think Jason was a huge asshole to me.

Yeah, so for the AI Summit, the President really wanted me to do this, and of course, happy to go to Paris and give a speech and talk about American priorities, but there was this big moment we thought we had an opportunity to sort of plant our flag and say, America is done with the

overregulating with the constant worrying about the future.

We're going to lean into the future.

We're going to embrace the future and try to make sure America dominates in the future.

And that's such a radical departure from both the safety ism of the Biden administration, but also, frankly, the safety ism of a lot of our friends in Europe.

I'm the vice president here in D.C.

And I had been there for about 24 hours.

You have to be nice to me now, Jason.

I had met with Emmanuel Macron, the leader of France, had a good conversation and a lot of the other people in Europe.

And the thing that I kind of picked up is that they're so terrified

about the problems with AI.

And to be clear, there are problems with AI.

But if you're so terrified with the problems with AI, you don't actually embrace the potential, then you're going to get the worst of the problems without any of the benefits at the upside of it.

And that's what I think was so broken about our administration's approach during the Biden years.

And it's what's so different about our actual administration here during the Trump years.

So our attitude is, yeah, there are some consumer protection issues.

There are some data privacy issues.

We don't want the AI companies to do what the big tech companies did in 2020 and 2021, which is steal people's data and then censor an entire large swath of the American people for saying things that were said to be conspiracies, but later turned out to be true.

We're not going to do that.

But we're also going to embrace innovation.

We're going to make sure that America stays at the leading edge of the artificial intelligence boom.

And we think when that happens, it's going to create a lot of jobs.

It's going to create a lot of productivity.

We talked about agriculture.

I think it's going to lead to a new food revolution where we can grow a lot more food on a lot less land.

There's just a whole host of things that being forward focused on technology can bring to this country.

And that is the story.

I think the story of American entrepreneurship and American economic growth is that when we grow through technology and development and productivity, that enters to the benefit of all Americans and makes us more powerful and more wealthy.

You're welcome to have a White House tour.

When we try to grow our economy, frankly, through importing cheap labor, that I think is a dead end.

We've taken that pathway for far too long in this country.

The Trump administration is going to take a different path.

Really?

I know a guy.

I asked David three times.

Yeah, it's got to be a little bit of both.

You know, it's always tough to strike the right balance.

I mean, look, China is our biggest economic competitor in the entire world.

When you look at their technology industry, I think that's the only tech industry, especially when it comes to things like AI, where they're even sort of knocking on the door of America.

Now, I still think that we have the best hardware.

I think that we have the best software.

I still think that we're the most technologically forward economy.

But our edge is not something we can sort of rest on our laurels.

So I think it is useful to look to the Chinese to benchmark our own progress and to say that if we're regulating ourselves to death and allowing the Chinese to catch up to us, that's not something, frankly, we should blame the Chinese for.

That's something we should blame our own leaders for, for having stupid policies that allow other countries to catch up to America.

So it's a useful benchmark, but I still think fundamentally we have to take the attitude of we want the world to be built, I think, on an American technology stack, not on a Chinese or some other country's technology stack.

And if you're too focused on the relative comparison and not focused enough on just building and creating great things, I think that it can become a little bit of a crutch and a little bit

of, I don't know, an impediment to focusing on your own stuff and doing your own thing.

That's why we have a great AI czar here in David Sachs, but we're really focused on how does America just do as well as we possibly can.

Yes, we want to stay ahead of China, but we want to stay ahead of everybody else because this is America and we want it to stay the greatest country in the world.

Yeah, so as the president said, it's a bit of a balance, right?

There are certain critical elements of our technology stack.

There are certain critical technologies.

We know that some Chinese firms engage in IP theft, so we don't want to give them our very best stuff because we're worried a little bit that they might steal it.

But of course, there are certain industries that we want to sell into China.

We actually want to broaden American workers' access to the world.

And part of our frustration with China is on the one hand, they steal some of our newest technology.

And on the other hand, they don't let American-made products into their country.

What we want to do is actually reverse that.

We want to sell American-made products into China, but we don't want to allow them to steal our critical intellectual property.

And we have to strike that balance in a much better way.

And not just the Biden administration, but better than the

the Obama administration and the Bush administration did too.

But striking that balance is something I think the president's very focused on.

I'm certainly very focused on.

And we've now got a much better approach now than we have in a long time in this country.

Yeah, it's a very interesting question and I don't want to predict the future too much here.

It's always a fraught business, especially in politics.

You know, one of the things that's interesting, a foreign leader came to me relatively recently, this is actually last week, small country but very important country strategically, very good ally of the United States, and basically pitched me on creating a NATO alternative outside of Europe

but where countries that were aligned with the United States built on the same technology stack.

There was a shared access to technology, shared access to certain weaponry and so forth.

And he was like, we really want to be part of Team America, but there isn't even an existing infrastructure that would allow us to be Team America.

And I had never thought about it in that way.

I haven't even talked to the president yet about it, but it's interesting that world leaders are coming and saying, this is how we're thinking about the future.

And the technology piece of it's a very critical angle, because as you guys probably appreciate, I assume the audience appreciates, is that sometimes when you build with Chinese firms or Chinese technology, it seems like a pretty good deal, right?

Larry Summers once had this famous quote that in Africa, when developing countries talk to the United States and talk to

China, the Americans show up with a moral lecture and the Chinese show up with a bag of money.

Well, the bag of money, obviously, I prefer that to the moral lecture, but you realize that bag of money sometimes comes with debt servitude.

It sometimes comes with a sort of neocolonial control of the host country.

What a lot of nations are realizing is they're not just showing up with a bag of money, and we'd much rather be on Team America, but it does require much more forward leadership.

And the Biden administration, I don't know what it was.

but there was just this deep-seated fear of the future.

I'm sure it was motivated by having a president who didn't necessarily know where he was from day to day, but there was such a deep-seated... Easy on the elder abuse.

Sorry.

It's over.

You won, J.D.

You won.

We still get to have a little fun with Uncle Joe.

There was just this really weird fear of the future that I think is totally absent in the Trump administration.

I mean, I think it's an abstract question that's interesting.

But fundamentally, in some ways, the world is going to be multipolar in the sense that there are different.

We want regional allies to step up.

I mean, you've heard the president say this before.

You know, we'd love a Middle East where we have to spend a little bit less time and a little bit less money, and our regional allies, both Israeli and Arab, step up in a bigger way.

We'd like to see that, of course, in Europe.

And I think one of the big accomplishments of the president in the first term, something that the media still doesn't give enough credit for, is he actually got NATO to step up and make major security commitments about their own sector of the world.

Now, that's sometimes interpreted as, well, America doesn't like Europe anymore.

No, we like Europe so much,

that we want Europe to step up and take a little bit more self-control of its own continent.

Of course, we're gonna be their friends, and of course, we're gonna work with them, but we definitely see a world where some of our regional allies step up a little bit more.

I think that's a good thing.

Of course, they're gonna be allied with the United States, aligned with the United States in important ways, but other countries taking a bigger,

a bigger role in their own self-defense and in their own region, that's fundamentally a good thing for America.

i think it's going well i mean we are criticized interestingly by some folks on the right who want the pace of deportations to be higher and i certainly understand that frankly and share that frustration the counter argument is the courts are trying to stay stop us at every step of the way and until about a month ago we didn't have the resources for ice to actually get this massive invasion that joe biden led into our country

I actually think the number is much closer to 20 than to 12 million.

I actually think the number is much closer to 20 than to 12 million.

They did. And I think they're undercounting it because I think they're counting the people that we were aware of. I don't think they were counting that estimate, unknown gotaways. They weren't counting certain classes of asylum seekers, of TPS seekers. So they were answering the question as honestly as they could. But I think if you look at the grand scheme of it, it's higher. But

They did. And I think they're undercounting it because I think they're counting the people that we were aware of. I don't think they were counting that estimate, unknown gotaways. They weren't counting certain classes of asylum seekers, of TPS seekers. So they were answering the question as honestly as they could. But I think if you look at the grand scheme of it, it's higher. But

Look, whether it's 12 million or whether it's 20 million, it's a lot. And that is a lot of work ahead of us. Now, there are two things that we can do. I think one thing is a little bit easier and one thing is a little bit harder. And the first thing is you just have to have the actual law enforcement infrastructure to make this possible. And again, I think that we should treat people humanely.

Look, whether it's 12 million or whether it's 20 million, it's a lot. And that is a lot of work ahead of us. Now, there are two things that we can do. I think one thing is a little bit easier and one thing is a little bit harder. And the first thing is you just have to have the actual law enforcement infrastructure to make this possible. And again, I think that we should treat people humanely.

I think we have an obligation to treat people humanely. But I do think that a lot of these illegal immigrants have to go back to where they came from. and that requires more law enforcement officers, it requires more beds at deportation facilities, it just requires more of the basic nuts and bolts of how you run a law enforcement regime in the context of deportation.

I think we have an obligation to treat people humanely. But I do think that a lot of these illegal immigrants have to go back to where they came from. and that requires more law enforcement officers, it requires more beds at deportation facilities, it just requires more of the basic nuts and bolts of how you run a law enforcement regime in the context of deportation.

That's one of the main things in the big beautiful bill that is moving through Congress right now is more money for immigration enforcement. That's what that money is for, to facilitate that deportation infrastructure. There's a much more difficult question. And I think you see the president's frustration.

That's one of the main things in the big beautiful bill that is moving through Congress right now is more money for immigration enforcement. That's what that money is for, to facilitate that deportation infrastructure. There's a much more difficult question. And I think you see the president's frustration.

I've obviously expressed public frustration on this, which is, yes, illegal immigrants, by virtue of being in the United States, are entitled to some due process, okay?

I've obviously expressed public frustration on this, which is, yes, illegal immigrants, by virtue of being in the United States, are entitled to some due process, okay?

But the amount of process that is due and how you enforce those legislative standards and how you actually bring them to bear is, I think, very much an open question. And I think that what you've seen – and I remember when I was in law school, there were all of these people who were wanting to become immigration lawyers.

But the amount of process that is due and how you enforce those legislative standards and how you actually bring them to bear is, I think, very much an open question. And I think that what you've seen – and I remember when I was in law school, there were all of these people who were wanting to become immigration lawyers.

And there was almost a certain buzz around immigration law at the time because there was so much – gray area. There was so much open space where the courts would interpret how to apply these rules. Now, in the context of the United States in 2011, 2012, 2013, when I was in law school, we had significant illegal immigration, but not that much.

And there was almost a certain buzz around immigration law at the time because there was so much – gray area. There was so much open space where the courts would interpret how to apply these rules. Now, in the context of the United States in 2011, 2012, 2013, when I was in law school, we had significant illegal immigration, but not that much.

there was this idea that you could use the asylum claim process, and you could use the refugee process, and you could use all of these other tools of the immigration enforcement regime to actually make it harder to deport illegal aliens. Then what happened is a lot of very well-funded NGOs went about the process of making it much harder to deport illegal aliens.

there was this idea that you could use the asylum claim process, and you could use the refugee process, and you could use all of these other tools of the immigration enforcement regime to actually make it harder to deport illegal aliens. Then what happened is a lot of very well-funded NGOs went about the process of making it much harder to deport illegal aliens.

And that's what we inherited in the year of our Lord, 2025, is a whole host of legal rules. And in some cases, not even legal rules as much as arguments that had made by left-wing NGOs that hadn't actually been ruled on by the courts yet. Right. And what we're finding, of course, is that a small but substantial number of courts are just making it very, very hard for us to deport illegal aliens.

And that's what we inherited in the year of our Lord, 2025, is a whole host of legal rules. And in some cases, not even legal rules as much as arguments that had made by left-wing NGOs that hadn't actually been ruled on by the courts yet. Right. And what we're finding, of course, is that a small but substantial number of courts are just making it very, very hard for us to deport illegal aliens.

And, you know, Stephen Miller, who, of course, is sort of our immigration czar in the White House, a good friend of mine, you know, he's thinking of all of these different and new statutory authorities, right? Because there are a lot of different statutory authorities the president has to enforce the nation's immigration laws.

And, you know, Stephen Miller, who, of course, is sort of our immigration czar in the White House, a good friend of mine, you know, he's thinking of all of these different and new statutory authorities, right? Because there are a lot of different statutory authorities the president has to enforce the nation's immigration laws.

And there is candidly frustration on the White House side that we think that the law is very clear. We think the president has extraordinary plenary power. Yes, you have to, you need some process to confirm that these illegal aliens are in fact illegal aliens, not American citizens. But that it's not like we're just throwing that process out.

And there is candidly frustration on the White House side that we think that the law is very clear. We think the president has extraordinary plenary power. Yes, you have to, you need some process to confirm that these illegal aliens are in fact illegal aliens, not American citizens. But that it's not like we're just throwing that process out.

We're trying to comply with it as much as possible and actually do the job that we were left. And I, let me just make One final sort of philosophical point here. I worry that unless the Supreme Court steps in here or unless the district courts exercise a little bit more discretion, we are running into a real conflict between two important principles in the United States.

We're trying to comply with it as much as possible and actually do the job that we were left. And I, let me just make One final sort of philosophical point here. I worry that unless the Supreme Court steps in here or unless the district courts exercise a little bit more discretion, we are running into a real conflict between two important principles in the United States.

Principle one, of course, is that courts interpret the law differently. I think principle two is that the American people decide how they're governed, right? That's the fundamental small d democratic principle that's at the heart of the American project.

Principle one, of course, is that courts interpret the law differently. I think principle two is that the American people decide how they're governed, right? That's the fundamental small d democratic principle that's at the heart of the American project.

I think that you are seeing, and I know this is inflammatory, but I think you are seeing an effort by the courts to quite literally overturn the will of the American people. And to be clear, it's not most courts, but I think what the Supreme Court has to do, and I saw an interview with Chief Justice Roberts recently where he said, The role of the court is to check the excesses of the executive.

I think that you are seeing, and I know this is inflammatory, but I think you are seeing an effort by the courts to quite literally overturn the will of the American people. And to be clear, it's not most courts, but I think what the Supreme Court has to do, and I saw an interview with Chief Justice Roberts recently where he said, The role of the court is to check the excesses of the executive.

I thought that was a profoundly wrong sentiment. That's one half of his job. The other half of his job is to check the excesses of his own branch. And you cannot have a country where the American people keep on electing immigration enforcement and the courts tell the American people they're not allowed to have what they voted for. And that's where we are right now.

I thought that was a profoundly wrong sentiment. That's one half of his job. The other half of his job is to check the excesses of his own branch. And you cannot have a country where the American people keep on electing immigration enforcement and the courts tell the American people they're not allowed to have what they voted for. And that's where we are right now.

Well, I think one of the criticisms that I get from the right is that I am insufficiently committed to the capital M market. And I am a capitalist. I believe the market economy is the best way of provisioning goods and services and coordinating people across a very complex society.

Well, I think one of the criticisms that I get from the right is that I am insufficiently committed to the capital M market. And I am a capitalist. I believe the market economy is the best way of provisioning goods and services and coordinating people across a very complex society.

We're going to keep working it through the immigration court process, through the Supreme Court as much as possible. And look, my hope is that when you ask what success is, success to me is not so much a number, though obviously I'd love to see the gross majority of the illegal immigrants who came in under Biden deported. That actually is a secondary metric of success.

We're going to keep working it through the immigration court process, through the Supreme Court as much as possible. And look, my hope is that when you ask what success is, success to me is not so much a number, though obviously I'd love to see the gross majority of the illegal immigrants who came in under Biden deported. That actually is a secondary metric of success.

Success to me is that we have established a set of rules and principles that the courts are comfortable with and that we have the infrastructure to do that allows us to deport large numbers of illegal aliens when large numbers of illegal aliens come into the country. That, to me, is real success.

Success to me is that we have established a set of rules and principles that the courts are comfortable with and that we have the infrastructure to do that allows us to deport large numbers of illegal aliens when large numbers of illegal aliens come into the country. That, to me, is real success.

But I think whether we're able to get there is a function, of course, of our efforts, but also of the courts themselves.

But I think whether we're able to get there is a function, of course, of our efforts, but also of the courts themselves.

But your administration, just to push— There's a third track, too, which is using existing legal authorities that haven't been used in the past, but we think are there.

But your administration, just to push— There's a third track, too, which is using existing legal authorities that haven't been used in the past, but we think are there.

No, it's not that 5 million are engaged in like military conflict, but that the, I take issue that it's an aggressive interpretation. So let me back up and take some issue with the premise. I don't think that the supposition, if you look at the history and the context of those laws, is that for something to be an invasion, you have to have like 5 million uniformed combatants.

No, it's not that 5 million are engaged in like military conflict, but that the, I take issue that it's an aggressive interpretation. So let me back up and take some issue with the premise. I don't think that the supposition, if you look at the history and the context of those laws, is that for something to be an invasion, you have to have like 5 million uniformed combatants.

Yes, we don't have 5 million uniformed combatants. But Ross, I mean, this is where I think, and I have to be careful here, because some of this information, of course, is classified, but I think I ought to put this point. I think that the courts need to be somewhat deferential

Yes, we don't have 5 million uniformed combatants. But Ross, I mean, this is where I think, and I have to be careful here, because some of this information, of course, is classified, but I think I ought to put this point. I think that the courts need to be somewhat deferential

In fact, I think the design is that they should be extremely deferential to these questions of political judgment made by the people's elected president of the United States. Because when you say, well, there aren't 5 million people who are waging war, okay, but are there thousands, maybe tens of thousands of people?

In fact, I think the design is that they should be extremely deferential to these questions of political judgment made by the people's elected president of the United States. Because when you say, well, there aren't 5 million people who are waging war, okay, but are there thousands, maybe tens of thousands of people?

But I'm not one of these people who says every intervention in the market, for example, trade, which I'm sure that we'll get into. If you apply a tariff on an import good, there are a lot of people who say, well, that is a violation of some market rule.

But I'm not one of these people who says every intervention in the market, for example, trade, which I'm sure that we'll get into. If you apply a tariff on an import good, there are a lot of people who say, well, that is a violation of some market rule.

And then when you take their extended family, their networks, is it much larger than that who are quite dangerous people? who I think very intentionally came to the United States to cause violence or to at least profit from violence, and they're fine if violence is an incidental effect of it. Yeah, I do, man.

And then when you take their extended family, their networks, is it much larger than that who are quite dangerous people? who I think very intentionally came to the United States to cause violence or to at least profit from violence, and they're fine if violence is an incidental effect of it. Yeah, I do, man.

And I think the people underappreciate the level of public safety stress that we're under. When the president talks about how bad crime is, you know, the one thing I'd love for the American media to do a little bit more is really go

And I think the people underappreciate the level of public safety stress that we're under. When the president talks about how bad crime is, you know, the one thing I'd love for the American media to do a little bit more is really go

to a migrant community where you have, say, 60% legal immigrants and 40% illegal immigrants, the level of chaos, the level of violence, the level of, I think, truly pre-modern brutality that some of these communities have gotten used to, So whatever law was written, I think it vests us with the power to take very serious action against this. It's bad. It's bad. It's worse than people appreciate.

to a migrant community where you have, say, 60% legal immigrants and 40% illegal immigrants, the level of chaos, the level of violence, the level of, I think, truly pre-modern brutality that some of these communities have gotten used to, So whatever law was written, I think it vests us with the power to take very serious action against this. It's bad. It's bad. It's worse than people appreciate.

And it's not, you know, Donald Trump, I know most of your listeners probably hate, you know, the president I serve under and probably hate me. Maybe not your listeners, but a lot of New York Times readers. But we'll talk about that.

And it's not, you know, Donald Trump, I know most of your listeners probably hate, you know, the president I serve under and probably hate me. Maybe not your listeners, but a lot of New York Times readers. But we'll talk about that.

Ask them, like, do not filter this through the, I see President Trump and Vice President Vance up there, and I sort of immediately assume that they're lying to me and that they're motivated by some bad value. This is not sustainable. And it's not just sustainable, like, oh, this is more immigrants than we used to have. This is a level of...

Ask them, like, do not filter this through the, I see President Trump and Vice President Vance up there, and I sort of immediately assume that they're lying to me and that they're motivated by some bad value. This is not sustainable. And it's not just sustainable, like, oh, this is more immigrants than we used to have. This is a level of...

invasion that I think our laws, we already have laws to help us deal with. And I wish the courts were more deferential. And we're going to see, again, this is, we're very early innings in the court process. And even, you know, some of the worst, capital W, worst Supreme Court decisions that have been made on, you know, the media says, oh, this is a big blow to the administration.

invasion that I think our laws, we already have laws to help us deal with. And I wish the courts were more deferential. And we're going to see, again, this is, we're very early innings in the court process. And even, you know, some of the worst, capital W, worst Supreme Court decisions that have been made on, you know, the media says, oh, this is a big blow to the administration.

I think one of the things that I take from my Christian principles and Catholic social teaching specifically, whether you agree with the specific policies of our administration, is look – The market is a tool, but it is not the end state, is not the purpose of American politics. The purpose of American politics should be to encourage our citizens to live a good life.

I think one of the things that I take from my Christian principles and Catholic social teaching specifically, whether you agree with the specific policies of our administration, is look – The market is a tool, but it is not the end state, is not the purpose of American politics. The purpose of American politics should be to encourage our citizens to live a good life.

I mean, a lot of these things are very narrow procedural rulings. I think that we're very early innings here on what the court is going to interpret the law to mean. Yeah. Right.

I mean, a lot of these things are very narrow procedural rulings. I think that we're very early innings here on what the court is going to interpret the law to mean. Yeah. Right.

Oh, sometimes no, because the people who are most victimized by this, Ross, they're not running to the FBI. They're not running to the local police. But certainly, I mean, if you look at. I mean, hell, look at the number of people dying of fentanyl overdoses. Again, just go substantively, qualitatively, you go to these communities and you see what they're dealing with.

Oh, sometimes no, because the people who are most victimized by this, Ross, they're not running to the FBI. They're not running to the local police. But certainly, I mean, if you look at. I mean, hell, look at the number of people dying of fentanyl overdoses. Again, just go substantively, qualitatively, you go to these communities and you see what they're dealing with.

I really think that we underappreciate just how violent these cartels are and how much they've made life, I think, pretty unbearable for, frankly, a lot of native-born American citizens, but also a lot of legal American migrants, especially those along the southern border. Thank you.

I really think that we underappreciate just how violent these cartels are and how much they've made life, I think, pretty unbearable for, frankly, a lot of native-born American citizens, but also a lot of legal American migrants, especially those along the southern border. Thank you.

Well, look, first of all, I understand your point. And Making these judgments, if you take the teachings of our faith seriously, they are hard. I'm not going to pretend that I haven't struggled with some of this, that I haven't thought about whether we're doing the precisely right thing. It's a fair point, and I know that you think you've got me trapped here.

Well, look, first of all, I understand your point. And Making these judgments, if you take the teachings of our faith seriously, they are hard. I'm not going to pretend that I haven't struggled with some of this, that I haven't thought about whether we're doing the precisely right thing. It's a fair point, and I know that you think you've got me trapped here.

And part of that is good, dignified work. Part of that is having a high enough wage that you can support a family. That very much flows through my Catholicism. To be clear, I'm not saying it has to flow. and that the people who don't share my faith can't worry about those things. But that is something very much that I take from Catholic social teaching.

And part of that is good, dignified work. Part of that is having a high enough wage that you can support a family. That very much flows through my Catholicism. To be clear, I'm not saying it has to flow. and that the people who don't share my faith can't worry about those things. But that is something very much that I take from Catholic social teaching.

I think it's to be clear. I think it's a totally fair question. I'm interested in what politics does to people, to to your soul. Yes, of course. So, number one, the concern that you raise is fair, right? Okay, the concern that you raised is fair.

I think it's to be clear. I think it's a totally fair question. I'm interested in what politics does to people, to to your soul. Yes, of course. So, number one, the concern that you raise is fair, right? Okay, the concern that you raised is fair.

There has to be some way in which you're asking yourself as you go about enforcing the law, even to your point against some very dangerous people, that you're enforcing the law consistent with the Catholic Church's moral dictates and so forth. And also to be clear, I'm the vice—

There has to be some way in which you're asking yourself as you go about enforcing the law, even to your point against some very dangerous people, that you're enforcing the law consistent with the Catholic Church's moral dictates and so forth. And also to be clear, I'm the vice—

And American law and basic principles. Most importantly, American law. But we're talking about, you know, we're in Rome. And so that's why I brought up the Catholic faith part of it. The American flag is positioned behind you. Sure. So here's the thing. So.

And American law and basic principles. Most importantly, American law. But we're talking about, you know, we're in Rome. And so that's why I brought up the Catholic faith part of it. The American flag is positioned behind you. Sure. So here's the thing. So.

with a caveat that I'm the Vice President of the United States and I am hardly an expert in every single edge case or every single case that has become a viral sensation or that people have criticized us over. But I am pretty well read on some of the cases.

with a caveat that I'm the Vice President of the United States and I am hardly an expert in every single edge case or every single case that has become a viral sensation or that people have criticized us over. But I am pretty well read on some of the cases.

Typically what I find when I look at the worst cases, I mean, the ones that the media seems so preoccupied with, I would make a couple of observations about it. Number one, it is hard to take seriously, now this doesn't absolve me from doing my duty as an American leader and hopefully as a Christian leader too, but it is hard to take seriously

Typically what I find when I look at the worst cases, I mean, the ones that the media seems so preoccupied with, I would make a couple of observations about it. Number one, it is hard to take seriously, now this doesn't absolve me from doing my duty as an American leader and hopefully as a Christian leader too, but it is hard to take seriously

the extraordinarily emotive condemnations of people who don't care about the problem that i'm trying to solve and that the president is trying to solve that's not you it's why i take i actually take your concerns seriously you'd be i listen to most of your podcasts i read most of your columns

the extraordinarily emotive condemnations of people who don't care about the problem that i'm trying to solve and that the president is trying to solve that's not you it's why i take i actually take your concerns seriously you'd be i listen to most of your podcasts i read most of your columns

So when I see people who for legitimately four years told me that I was a xenophobe for thinking that what Joe Biden was doing at the border was a serious problem, I am less willing – there's a witness element to this, and I'm less willing to believe the witness of people who are now saying that this MS-13 gang member – and we'll talk about that case in a second –

So when I see people who for legitimately four years told me that I was a xenophobe for thinking that what Joe Biden was doing at the border was a serious problem, I am less willing – there's a witness element to this, and I'm less willing to believe the witness of people who are now saying that this MS-13 gang member – and we'll talk about that case in a second –

This guy, this guy is somehow a very sympathetic person and you violated his civil rights, et cetera, et cetera. OK, so that's number one. Number two, I still have an obligation to think about these cases. And I'll tell you, you know, a lot of times I'll read about these cases and I'll reach out to the people who are enforcing immigration law and I'll try to find out what exactly is going on.

This guy, this guy is somehow a very sympathetic person and you violated his civil rights, et cetera, et cetera. OK, so that's number one. Number two, I still have an obligation to think about these cases. And I'll tell you, you know, a lot of times I'll read about these cases and I'll reach out to the people who are enforcing immigration law and I'll try to find out what exactly is going on.

I haven't asked every question about every case, but the ones where I have asked questions and I try to get to the bottom of what's going on, I feel quite comfortable what's happened. And the one that I spent the most time understanding is the one of the Maryland father. And what I found so bizarre about that case is that the American media

I haven't asked every question about every case, but the ones where I have asked questions and I try to get to the bottom of what's going on, I feel quite comfortable what's happened. And the one that I spent the most time understanding is the one of the Maryland father. And what I found so bizarre about that case is that the American media

And it certainly influences my views on economics. I mean, obviously, I'm pro-life. I care about the rights of the unborn. That very much flows from my Christian perspective. And there's a lot of stuff, right? When we talk about family policy, you know, we talked about this a little bit with the Holy Father today. But, you know, look,

And it certainly influences my views on economics. I mean, obviously, I'm pro-life. I care about the rights of the unborn. That very much flows from my Christian perspective. And there's a lot of stuff, right? When we talk about family policy, you know, we talked about this a little bit with the Holy Father today. But, you know, look,

took one line, and I forget what line it was, but it acknowledged some error had happened in a Department of Justice filing, without actually asking the two most important questions, what is the nature of the error? And much more importantly than that, what is the remedy for an error?

took one line, and I forget what line it was, but it acknowledged some error had happened in a Department of Justice filing, without actually asking the two most important questions, what is the nature of the error? And much more importantly than that, what is the remedy for an error?

Both as a matter of law, most importantly as the vice president, but also, again, as a matter of Christian principles. I think this guy was not just a gang member, but a reasonably high-level gang member in MS-13. I think he had engaged in some pretty ugly conduct. Legally, he had had multiple hearings before an immigration judge. He had a valid deportation order.

Both as a matter of law, most importantly as the vice president, but also, again, as a matter of Christian principles. I think this guy was not just a gang member, but a reasonably high-level gang member in MS-13. I think he had engaged in some pretty ugly conduct. Legally, he had had multiple hearings before an immigration judge. He had a valid deportation order.

What he also had was a sort of exception, what's called a withholding order that basically said, yes, you can deport this guy. No one doubts that we could have deported this guy. But you can't deport this guy to El Salvador because of particular conditions that obtained in, I believe, 2019 when his case was adjudicated.

What he also had was a sort of exception, what's called a withholding order that basically said, yes, you can deport this guy. No one doubts that we could have deported this guy. But you can't deport this guy to El Salvador because of particular conditions that obtained in, I believe, 2019 when his case was adjudicated.

So you fast forward to 2025, we deport this guy, the courts hold that we've made a mistake, and then eventually it gets to the Supreme Court. And I believe, and we're getting in the weeds a little bit of the legal technicalities, but I believe the court term is you must facilitate his return.

So you fast forward to 2025, we deport this guy, the courts hold that we've made a mistake, and then eventually it gets to the Supreme Court. And I believe, and we're getting in the weeds a little bit of the legal technicalities, but I believe the court term is you must facilitate his return.

And I sat in lunch with Bukele, the leader of El Salvador, with the president of the United States and with others, and talked about this case. And Bukele basically said, I don't want to send this guy back. I think he's a bad guy. He's my citizen. He's in a prison in El Salvador, and I think that's where he belongs. And our attitude was, okay, what are we really going to do?

And I sat in lunch with Bukele, the leader of El Salvador, with the president of the United States and with others, and talked about this case. And Bukele basically said, I don't want to send this guy back. I think he's a bad guy. He's my citizen. He's in a prison in El Salvador, and I think that's where he belongs. And our attitude was, okay, what are we really going to do?

Are we going to exert extraordinary diplomatic pressure to bring a guy back to the United States who is a citizen of a foreign country who we had a valid deportation order with?

Are we going to exert extraordinary diplomatic pressure to bring a guy back to the United States who is a citizen of a foreign country who we had a valid deportation order with?

I understand there may be disagreements about the judgments that we made here, but there's just something that it's hard to take serious when so many of the people who are saying we made a terrible error here are the same people who made no... protests about how this guy got into the country in the first place or what Joe Biden did for four years to the American southern border in that meeting.

I understand there may be disagreements about the judgments that we made here, but there's just something that it's hard to take serious when so many of the people who are saying we made a terrible error here are the same people who made no... protests about how this guy got into the country in the first place or what Joe Biden did for four years to the American southern border in that meeting.

And he's also said explicitly he would follow the law and he would follow American courts on this. So I don't think it's unreasonable for the president to say, here's this thing I'd like to do so long as it's consistent with the law.

And he's also said explicitly he would follow the law and he would follow American courts on this. So I don't think it's unreasonable for the president to say, here's this thing I'd like to do so long as it's consistent with the law.

American society, I think, has become way too hostile to family formation. I think it's probably true across the West. In some ways, maybe the Europeans are even worse off than we are. But Europe and America have been quite bad at supporting families over the last generation. And I think you see that in the fact that fewer people are choosing to start families.

American society, I think, has become way too hostile to family formation. I think it's probably true across the West. In some ways, maybe the Europeans are even worse off than we are. But Europe and America have been quite bad at supporting families over the last generation. And I think you see that in the fact that fewer people are choosing to start families.

So, look, I understand the point, especially as it's, you know, what the president says or what I say is refracted through the lens of an American press that, you know, I have my complaints with. But just what did the president... Again, you know, I'm going to defend my boss here. What do you say? I'm gonna think about doing this.

So, look, I understand the point, especially as it's, you know, what the president says or what I say is refracted through the lens of an American press that, you know, I have my complaints with. But just what did the president... Again, you know, I'm going to defend my boss here. What do you say? I'm gonna think about doing this.

only in cases of the very, very worst people, number one, and number two, only if it's consistent with American law. I think that if that was the headline that was reproduced, the president is considering sending the very worst violent gang members in America to a foreign prison, so long as that is a legal thing to do, I don't think that would inspire so much passionate resistance.

only in cases of the very, very worst people, number one, and number two, only if it's consistent with American law. I think that if that was the headline that was reproduced, the president is considering sending the very worst violent gang members in America to a foreign prison, so long as that is a legal thing to do, I don't think that would inspire so much passionate resistance.

It's said that we understand facilitation to mean something. Of course, the Supreme Court or any other court can further illuminate that. But this point is interesting to me. So there are two things about my boss, and I never reveal private conversations, two things about the President of the United States that I am extremely fascinated by.

It's said that we understand facilitation to mean something. Of course, the Supreme Court or any other court can further illuminate that. But this point is interesting to me. So there are two things about my boss, and I never reveal private conversations, two things about the President of the United States that I am extremely fascinated by.

One is he has better instincts about human beings than anybody that I've ever met. We can talk about that, but I'll set that to the side. Just sort of almost a bizarre level of intuition about people.

One is he has better instincts about human beings than anybody that I've ever met. We can talk about that, but I'll set that to the side. Just sort of almost a bizarre level of intuition about people.

The second, which I think is very underappreciated and it motivates the foreign policy in Ukraine and Russia, it motivates the things that he said about the Middle East, it motivates really a lot of them, is he has this sort of humanitarian impulse. I've heard the president say,

The second, which I think is very underappreciated and it motivates the foreign policy in Ukraine and Russia, it motivates the things that he said about the Middle East, it motivates really a lot of them, is he has this sort of humanitarian impulse. I've heard the president say,

Well, you know, maybe if we sent the very worst people to different places, then American prisons would be a little less violent. Because as you know, American prisons are not a good place. They're not very good at rehabilitation. Sometimes people go in there for not, you know, I think we overstate how much people go to prison for truly petty crime.

Well, you know, maybe if we sent the very worst people to different places, then American prisons would be a little less violent. Because as you know, American prisons are not a good place. They're not very good at rehabilitation. Sometimes people go in there for not, you know, I think we overstate how much people go to prison for truly petty crime.

But they go in there for something that should at least give them an opportunity for a second chance. They end up getting stabbed while they're in prison. that there is just something fundamentally inhumane about sending a very violent person to another prison outside of the country. I don't buy that. I don't think that's what motivates the president.

But they go in there for something that should at least give them an opportunity for a second chance. They end up getting stabbed while they're in prison. that there is just something fundamentally inhumane about sending a very violent person to another prison outside of the country. I don't buy that. I don't think that's what motivates the president.

That's something else that I think a lot about because of my faith. So it would be easier to say, what does your faith not cause you to think about? Because...

That's something else that I think a lot about because of my faith. So it would be easier to say, what does your faith not cause you to think about? Because...

And again, that's a separate question from whether it's legal, which the president's been very clear he would follow the law.

And again, that's a separate question from whether it's legal, which the president's been very clear he would follow the law.

So I want to answer your question, but I want to give some context here and back up a little bit because I do think that there has been a little overconfidence from the economic class and from other watchers of this policy that They know what Donald Trump doesn't, that we're sort of motivated by chaos or stupidity or something else.

So I want to answer your question, but I want to give some context here and back up a little bit because I do think that there has been a little overconfidence from the economic class and from other watchers of this policy that They know what Donald Trump doesn't, that we're sort of motivated by chaos or stupidity or something else.

You know, when you really believe something, and I do believe it, not saying I don't have doubts, I think everybody does, but when you really believe something, it ought to influence how you think about the way that you do your job, the way that you spend time with your wife and your children. It just necessarily informs how I live my life.

You know, when you really believe something, and I do believe it, not saying I don't have doubts, I think everybody does, but when you really believe something, it ought to influence how you think about the way that you do your job, the way that you spend time with your wife and your children. It just necessarily informs how I live my life.

And you don't have to agree with the policy, but there are a couple of very important points that I think illustrate this. Number one, yes, we are at a global minimum tariff of effectively 10%. That understates it in a lot of ways because we also have substantial tariffs on automobiles. We have substantial tariffs on steel. We have substantial tariffs on a whole host of other product categories.

And you don't have to agree with the policy, but there are a couple of very important points that I think illustrate this. Number one, yes, we are at a global minimum tariff of effectively 10%. That understates it in a lot of ways because we also have substantial tariffs on automobiles. We have substantial tariffs on steel. We have substantial tariffs on a whole host of other product categories.

Okay, one of the very classic, very straightforward predictions of the economics profession is that if you do this – the currency, meaning the US dollar, the currency of the importing nation that's applying the tariff is going to appreciate, okay, what happened? The currency actually depreciated.

Okay, one of the very classic, very straightforward predictions of the economics profession is that if you do this – the currency, meaning the US dollar, the currency of the importing nation that's applying the tariff is going to appreciate, okay, what happened? The currency actually depreciated.

I think it's worth just stepping back and saying the consensus forecast of our economics profession is like profoundly wrong on this particular question. Similarly, similarly, If you look at the inflation numbers, if you look at the jobs numbers, if you look at nearly every metric, we keep on beating expectations.

I think it's worth just stepping back and saying the consensus forecast of our economics profession is like profoundly wrong on this particular question. Similarly, similarly, If you look at the inflation numbers, if you look at the jobs numbers, if you look at nearly every metric, we keep on beating expectations.

The one exception was the GDP number, which even, you know, our critics have acknowledged the GDP number, which went down, I think, by 0.3% last quarter. That is very much an artifact of how this stuff's measured. That's not real GDP actually to climb. That's how it's measured. So just step back here.

The one exception was the GDP number, which even, you know, our critics have acknowledged the GDP number, which went down, I think, by 0.3% last quarter. That is very much an artifact of how this stuff's measured. That's not real GDP actually to climb. That's how it's measured. So just step back here.

I think that we're trying a new economic paradigm, but people who think that they know everything should have a little bit more humility. We have a lot of humility. Trust me. Me and the president and the entire team, we are constantly testing this stuff.

I think that we're trying a new economic paradigm, but people who think that they know everything should have a little bit more humility. We have a lot of humility. Trust me. Me and the president and the entire team, we are constantly testing this stuff.

So again, I don't want to litigate this either. The one, let me, a bit of litigation here is, I gave you 20 more minutes. Give me 30 seconds to make this point.

So again, I don't want to litigate this either. The one, let me, a bit of litigation here is, I gave you 20 more minutes. Give me 30 seconds to make this point.

I'll be brief. I'll be brief. Look, the point of Liberation Day, as the president himself has said, was to one, announce that the old global trading system was over. Yes. And two, that America was now open for business, open for negotiation, open to talk, and open to a whole host of other policy.

I'll be brief. I'll be brief. Look, the point of Liberation Day, as the president himself has said, was to one, announce that the old global trading system was over. Yes. And two, that America was now open for business, open for negotiation, open to talk, and open to a whole host of other policy.

I totally disagree with that. I think they're based in large part on the trade deficit, which is a very reasonable place to start, especially large economies versus large economies. But anyway.

I totally disagree with that. I think they're based in large part on the trade deficit, which is a very reasonable place to start, especially large economies versus large economies. But anyway.

Goal here, Ross. is there are a few things that we want out of this. So first of all, I think the president's been very clear. The 10% minimum is going to apply nearly universally, if not universally. So yes, there is one way in which we are trying to raise revenue. Meanwhile, we're trying to lower taxes on domestic producers and consumers.

Goal here, Ross. is there are a few things that we want out of this. So first of all, I think the president's been very clear. The 10% minimum is going to apply nearly universally, if not universally. So yes, there is one way in which we are trying to raise revenue. Meanwhile, we're trying to lower taxes on domestic producers and consumers.

And if you sort of combine those two policies, he's trying to make it more expensive to import into the United States. He's trying to make it a little bit cheaper to produce or to work in the United States. So those two policies go hand in hand. Second of all, and this is related, you ask Coda, what does success look like?

And if you sort of combine those two policies, he's trying to make it more expensive to import into the United States. He's trying to make it a little bit cheaper to produce or to work in the United States. So those two policies go hand in hand. Second of all, and this is related, you ask Coda, what does success look like?

Look, does it mean that we have more manufacturing jobs than we do right now? Yes, I think that's one of the things that we want. Now, it's going to take a little while to get there.

Look, does it mean that we have more manufacturing jobs than we do right now? Yes, I think that's one of the things that we want. Now, it's going to take a little while to get there.

Does it mean, you know, one very important metric of success, which I think you already saw in the Q1 numbers, which are way more important than this sort of weird artifact of measurement on GDP, was how much private capital investment is coming into the country? You saw a very significant increase. A lot of people poo-poo, you know, the Middle Eastern term.

Does it mean, you know, one very important metric of success, which I think you already saw in the Q1 numbers, which are way more important than this sort of weird artifact of measurement on GDP, was how much private capital investment is coming into the country? You saw a very significant increase. A lot of people poo-poo, you know, the Middle Eastern term.

They say, oh, well, you know, these investment numbers that he's getting from foreign countries are from American companies. Those aren't real numbers, but if you look at the actual measured amount of capital investment in the country, that is on the rise. And we think that capital investment will produce factories and other companies will produce good jobs and so forth.

They say, oh, well, you know, these investment numbers that he's getting from foreign countries are from American companies. Those aren't real numbers, but if you look at the actual measured amount of capital investment in the country, that is on the rise. And we think that capital investment will produce factories and other companies will produce good jobs and so forth.

I think the best way of measuring where we're headed here is whether we still have a $1.2, $1.3 trillion trade deficit. And that to me, not next year, because it takes a while. You've got to build factories. You've got to change the trading regime with other countries. We're trying to make our exports cheaper, which by the way, give the president credit, if you look at the UK trade deal...

I think the best way of measuring where we're headed here is whether we still have a $1.2, $1.3 trillion trade deficit. And that to me, not next year, because it takes a while. You've got to build factories. You've got to change the trading regime with other countries. We're trying to make our exports cheaper, which by the way, give the president credit, if you look at the UK trade deal...

It is very, very good for us. Our manufacturers got better access to the sixth largest economy in the world. Our agricultural producers got major access in a way they've never been able to get to the sixth largest economy in the world. But all of this is, I think, in service of America making more of its own stuff, relying less on foreign countries.

It is very, very good for us. Our manufacturers got better access to the sixth largest economy in the world. Our agricultural producers got major access in a way they've never been able to get to the sixth largest economy in the world. But all of this is, I think, in service of America making more of its own stuff, relying less on foreign countries.

And the way, the best way to measure that, not the perfect way, but the best way to measure that is, are we still losing, as the president would say, $1.2, $1.3 trillion on trade?

And the way, the best way to measure that, not the perfect way, but the best way to measure that is, are we still losing, as the president would say, $1.2, $1.3 trillion on trade?

So, yes, but I think you're underweighting how much there's both a carrot and stick element to this and the Trump administration. Again, you see traditional Republicans, small government, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Okay, but we're talking about no tax on overtime, no tax on tips. These are things that give domestic consumers more money.

So, yes, but I think you're underweighting how much there's both a carrot and stick element to this and the Trump administration. Again, you see traditional Republicans, small government, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Okay, but we're talking about no tax on overtime, no tax on tips. These are things that give domestic consumers more money.

And if you combine giving domestic consumers more money with making it easier and cheaper to produce in America and more expensive to produce overseas, then that is, in our view, at least a form of industrial policy. There are other things that we're doing. Number two, massive, massive changes to the regulatory regime.

And if you combine giving domestic consumers more money with making it easier and cheaper to produce in America and more expensive to produce overseas, then that is, in our view, at least a form of industrial policy. There are other things that we're doing. Number two, massive, massive changes to the regulatory regime.

Our biggest belief, or at least mine, I don't want to speak for the president because I haven't talked to him on this issue, but I think his policy is consistent with his perspective is we actually have an industrial policy in this country. The biggest industrial policy that we have is a regulatory regime that is incredibly rewarding to...

Our biggest belief, or at least mine, I don't want to speak for the president because I haven't talked to him on this issue, but I think his policy is consistent with his perspective is we actually have an industrial policy in this country. The biggest industrial policy that we have is a regulatory regime that is incredibly rewarding to...

software to the world of bits, as Peter Thiel and Tyler Cowen might say, and is incredibly punitive in the world of atoms. We would like to reverse that or at least equalize it. If you look at what we're trying to do on the regulatory regime, we're trying to make it so much easier to produce things in the real world, not just to write code as important as that can be.

software to the world of bits, as Peter Thiel and Tyler Cowen might say, and is incredibly punitive in the world of atoms. We would like to reverse that or at least equalize it. If you look at what we're trying to do on the regulatory regime, we're trying to make it so much easier to produce things in the real world, not just to write code as important as that can be.