J.D. Tomlinson
Appearances
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2287 - Josh Dubin & J.D. Tomlinson
It all really started is because I had developed a relationship with a woman in my office who I had known for many years. And that was a mistake on my part. And it was contentious. It was really beautiful for a long time, like many relationships are. And then it started to entangle, disentangle. Shocker. Yeah, right. And it was all my fault, Joe.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2287 - Josh Dubin & J.D. Tomlinson
I mean, I'm really contrite about the situation because I'm very aware of my mistakes. And I've made amends with her. And thankfully, she has accepted my apologies because I put her in a position where she should have never been in. as being an employee of mine. But I had known her for 19 years. I had never really been the head of such a big office. I mean, it's about 100 people.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2287 - Josh Dubin & J.D. Tomlinson
So for me, it was a really big thing. And there's a romance that goes with kind of winning an election and coming in trying to make a difference. I think it swept us up and we really genuinely cared about each other. But then it started to kind of fail and it was my fault. And I brought a lot of toxicity to the relationship that I, and I don't like the word toxic. I don't know why I don't.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2287 - Josh Dubin & J.D. Tomlinson
It is. But that's exactly probably what it was. And so I'm lucky that. But so anyways, there was arguments that were caught, you know, on camera with her and I that were released to the public. And it showed us, you know, me arguing with her and raising my voice. And so it was extremely embarrassing time in my life. Um, but so this was all happening amidst this.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2287 - Josh Dubin & J.D. Tomlinson
And so it really, it all really did start happening when I exonerated those, uh, Nancy Smith and Joseph Allen, uh, in 2022, my life changed because, um, I knew there would be consequences to actions like that because it, it creates financial problems. People are suing people in federal courts. Um, uh, so it causes problems even in the sense that I was very close with police.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2287 - Josh Dubin & J.D. Tomlinson
I was a, I was a County prosecutor. Um, I was, I'm a very pro policeman. Um, And so it was difficult, the strain that it put on some of the police departments, even though it was an old case. You know, I'm still friends with a lot of these detectives. And to sort of make decisions like that where you have to kind of disagree, it can be difficult. It could strain relationships.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2287 - Josh Dubin & J.D. Tomlinson
But I really didn't realize the extent of how much it would do it. So when I exonerated Nancy Smith and Joseph Allen, which is one of the worst cases I've ever seen, I thought that it was the worst case I'd ever seen. And then I got Josh's case.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2287 - Josh Dubin & J.D. Tomlinson
And after I was going through all that hardship, basically on October 1st of 2024, I was charged with three felonies, tampering with records, intimidation and bribery. It was shocking to me because I couldn't figure out what the conduct was that they were referring to.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2287 - Josh Dubin & J.D. Tomlinson
So what, in essence, it was is is because of that fallout from the videos that were released and she didn't have a partner releasing the videos. And so she had called us in the summer time, even though we weren't really talking a bunch. And she had kind of expressed her sorrow that those videos had gotten out.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2287 - Josh Dubin & J.D. Tomlinson
and that she didn't intend for them to, and that she kind of wanted some help with the media about how can we kind of help a little bit with the PR. And my partner and my chief of staff, Jim Burge, who's a legend unto himself, he's the best writer I've ever seen.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2287 - Josh Dubin & J.D. Tomlinson
So he wrote a statement, and it was supposed to be prepared for her lawyers if they wanted to review it and see if they agreed with it or change it or anything like that. And to prove that that's what occurred was I have text messages from her on the day that – Jim wrote the statement that says, you know, I trust Jim and his magic pen because she knew how good of a writer he was.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2287 - Josh Dubin & J.D. Tomlinson
And then the next day, when I'm supposed to be intimidating him, according to the state, when I'm supposed to be intimidating her, according to the state, you know, I received a text message apologizing to this situation that we're in because we both were just really... It was dramatic to have your personal life right in even a small town like that. It was dramatic. So that's really what happened.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2287 - Josh Dubin & J.D. Tomlinson
But what they alleged was they alleged that we had created this false narrative, this false document, and then intimidated her into adopting it. That was the allegation, which is completely, completely false. And and we had all the evidence to prove it. So I was fairly confident in my case because I'm a lawyer. I've defended I was a defense attorney for 15 years before I took office.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2287 - Josh Dubin & J.D. Tomlinson
So I'm fairly knowledgeable about what constitutes a good case or not. And I had a great case. But the stress to put on my family and my mother and my father. Just awful. You know, I have nieces and nephews. I'm a bachelor, but I've got nieces and nephews with my last name, and that really bothered me. And so while I'm battling with this, the interesting thing, I'm charged on October 1st.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2287 - Josh Dubin & J.D. Tomlinson
On October 4th, and they had, once we broke up in 23, they had kind of been courting her because they knew that she was my weakness.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2287 - Josh Dubin & J.D. Tomlinson
um that the contentious relationship and i think they were hoping that they would turn her on me um and so they did as much as to exploit and try to try to utilize our relationship against me in fact the lead detective that was investigating her us uh was attempting to sleep with her at the same time attempting to sleep with i have text messages asking for nude photographs um asking just go over her house this is while he's investigating me joe he's trying to sleep with my girlfriend
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2287 - Josh Dubin & J.D. Tomlinson
Saying stuff like, you should get back at him. You should get back at him. How dumb is this guy to make this in text messages? I couldn't believe it when she showed it.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2287 - Josh Dubin & J.D. Tomlinson
Joe, it was extraordinary. That's why at first I didn't believe it. I was like, why would he write it? Why would he do that? And then she shared those messages with me. She showed me them. I didn't get to actually physically. And then later I acknowledged it. But so what it all occurred was in 2020, I won an election. I went against my own party and I ran in a primary and I ended up winning.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2287 - Josh Dubin & J.D. Tomlinson
And then my relationship with the sheriff who actually ended up investigating me for this case that I'm referring to. We had a pretty good relationship there for the first couple months when I got elected. I had asked for a couple of my investigators to be deputized, which is a pretty standard procedure. He agreed. And then he hired the individual that I had defeated in the election.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2287 - Josh Dubin & J.D. Tomlinson
And the whole attitude changed. Everything changed. It was now very contentious. He had withdrawn his desire to deputize my investigators. The relationship turned very sour, very fast when he hired my my predecessor, which is unusual to have a lawyer working in the sheriff's department anyways, because statutorily I'm the lawyer for the sheriff's department.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2287 - Josh Dubin & J.D. Tomlinson
So it's an unusual move to even hire a lawyer in a sheriff's department. You probably get two deputies for that kind of money. So it was unusual in a sense. So the relationship just soured, and it was kind of like they were coming after me immediately.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2287 - Josh Dubin & J.D. Tomlinson
And then in late 23, they actually hired then the guy that's running against me, another lawyer who was a former employee of mine who's now the Lorain County prosecutor. They had hired him. So the agency that was investigating me had hired my predecessor and then the individual who was now running against me for the office. Sure. Two lawyers, first of all, in a smaller town.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2287 - Josh Dubin & J.D. Tomlinson
I mean, we have about 300,000, a tenth maybe out of the 88 counties in Lorain County. It's fairly high, but it's a small town. To hire two lawyers on a sheriff's department is unusual. And they were both my political enemies. And then the detective that's investigating me is attempting to sleep with my girlfriend. So if you can think of a less objective investigation, Joe, I'm all ears.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2287 - Josh Dubin & J.D. Tomlinson
What a fun workplace environment. I'm telling you. What was it like going to that office every day? It was wild. So really what happened was on October 1st, they charged me with the... with the felonies.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2287 - Josh Dubin & J.D. Tomlinson
I was flabbergasted because I was kind of so confident in their inability to ever get anything like that on me that I was kind of boasting in the sense that, hey, all you had to do was go to a Leary Municipal Court, grab a complaint, you can do it, never thinking that it would actually happen. Yeah, because I was very confident that I did nothing illegal. So...
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2287 - Josh Dubin & J.D. Tomlinson
What occurred was on October 4th, it makes the papers on October 1st. October 4th, the woman that I had a relationship with, she sees it in the paper. She's walking in the store and she sees it in the paper and she sees me and my chief of staff, who she was very close with. And her instinct was to go, well, what did they do?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2287 - Josh Dubin & J.D. Tomlinson
Like she had no idea that the conduct that they had interviewed her about was actually the conduct they had used to charge me. So she was wondering like, what the hell did we do? You know, she had no idea. So that very same day, she sent text messages to the detective in charge. And she said, what are you guys doing? These guys, J.D. never bribed me. These are false charges.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2287 - Josh Dubin & J.D. Tomlinson
All this is on text message. He never bribed. What are you doing? You turned our personal life into charges against J.D. This is crazy. And she was emphatic. that she wanted to speak with me. And the problem was I had an order by the court that I was not to speak to her because her lawyer had represented that she didn't want to speak with us.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2287 - Josh Dubin & J.D. Tomlinson
So she was trying to get to me to tell me what had happened, but I couldn't speak with her. And so she was growing more frustrated, more frustrated. Eventually, she spoke to our lawyers. But what happened was that I was charged 30 days before the election. And and that's devastating.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2287 - Josh Dubin & J.D. Tomlinson
I mean, and so what happened was on October 4th, when she sent the text message in, I was entitled to those text messages. Those are exculpatory. I was entitled those immediately. And they waited a month and they waited till two days after the election on November 7th. And then they gave me the text messages that showed everything I had said was true.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2287 - Josh Dubin & J.D. Tomlinson
I was going through hell. I had been kind of attacked. They'd been trying to get special prosecutors on me for a year.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2287 - Josh Dubin & J.D. Tomlinson
I had to completely self-preserve. I get it. And because I had thought that I was going to be a politician for a long time, Joe. I was really passionate about it. And so it was really important to me. And I had never dreamed that I would ever be charged with felons. It's insane. So it really we had been Jim and I had been fighting, though, for a year. I mean, we were battle torn.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2287 - Josh Dubin & J.D. Tomlinson
I mean, you know, we always jostled around about how we're gunfighters. You face that way. I'll face this way. And we just got to fight our way out. And it had been like that way for a year. So I was kind of just. I was stressed. It was very difficult to think about focusing my mind on anything else other than trying to exonerate myself first.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2287 - Josh Dubin & J.D. Tomlinson
Awful. It gums everything up. Of course. I started to understand on a national level what it affects that task. Imagine what Trump went through. It's a similar thing.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2287 - Josh Dubin & J.D. Tomlinson
I think he was prepared to stay there the whole night.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2287 - Josh Dubin & J.D. Tomlinson
I've had experience not only with the assistant prosecutor that was involved in these cases, but with the Nancy Smith matter. I can't indicate to you how important that was to my thinking. and doing 15 years of being a defense attorney, I know how easy it is for this stuff to happen. It happens. And so I was open to it. I was open to it.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2287 - Josh Dubin & J.D. Tomlinson
But I was free from the stress, at least for that part, and I was going to dedicate the rest of those two months to this issue.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2287 - Josh Dubin & J.D. Tomlinson
It has to be a probable chance of success at trial. So two issues, probable cause and a success, a relatively good chance of success at trial.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2287 - Josh Dubin & J.D. Tomlinson
Are you kind of saying after the arrest, Joe?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2287 - Josh Dubin & J.D. Tomlinson
I think there's an easier way to do it, Joe. I think that you get county prosecutors that are extraordinarily powerful in their community. It's like, you know, I try to tell people vote local because, you know, the president of the United States isn't going to indict you. The guy that's sitting in the county prosecutor's office will.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2287 - Josh Dubin & J.D. Tomlinson
And so, you know, having experience as a defense attorney for that long is...
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2287 - Josh Dubin & J.D. Tomlinson
it it it changes the way you think about prosecution so i think that the easier thing is to require that a county prosecutor had some experience as a defense attorney because you get to see it from that perspective and you never are the same because you understand how these things happen you see it you if you practice long enough you will have a few minutes the clients and i don't want to get down completely on the system because i think most of the time it works most of the time
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2287 - Josh Dubin & J.D. Tomlinson
But when it doesn't work, it's awful. It's the worst thing on the face of the planet. I think that prosecutors, especially when, you know, they hide evidence, which does occur. I think they think, well, he's guilty. I'll cheat a little bit. So what? You know, which is insane. But but it happens.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2287 - Josh Dubin & J.D. Tomlinson
Well, and it's protect the state at all times, at all costs.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2287 - Josh Dubin & J.D. Tomlinson
It maintains the integrity of it. I mean, Joe, let me say something that might blow your mind. It blew mine. When I had exonerated Nancy Smith and Joseph Allen, it really was the highlight of my career. Can you tell me what the case was? Yeah, it was a 94 case, which is interesting because it was happening simultaneously with the same assistant prosecutor as the one that Josh is referring to.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2287 - Josh Dubin & J.D. Tomlinson
They were accused she was a bus driver. She's now become family to me. And they're big fans, Joe, by the way.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2287 - Josh Dubin & J.D. Tomlinson
Yeah, shout out. So, you know, they were 94. She was a bus driver for a place called Head Start for young kids. She was alleged to have driven these kids after picking them up from their homes back to another individual's house, a male, and severely abused them sexually.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2287 - Josh Dubin & J.D. Tomlinson
Now, the Broadway, which is the road where he allegedly lived off lived off of, was a main is a main thoroughfare through Lorraine. The allegations were so wild that, you know, if you can imagine seeing a school bus pull up on the main street, watch little kids go into a house. They were alleged to have been like punished by being tied up outside in trees, which is just impossible.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2287 - Josh Dubin & J.D. Tomlinson
So this this is the alleged abuse that occurred because what happened was someone coached the kids. Yes, that's that's in fact, that's exactly what occurred. So one of the mothers that eventually got paid, I think it was about one point five million and ninety five money, which is a decent amount of money. She had indicated that her daughter had been abused by Nancy, the bus driver.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2287 - Josh Dubin & J.D. Tomlinson
Now, when the investigation occurred, there was a detective on it that did a very thorough investigation and after months found out that, listen, I don't even think a crime occurred. He was very confused by the evidence. It wasn't clear. It was plain as day that he couldn't even prove that these two individuals knew one another.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2287 - Josh Dubin & J.D. Tomlinson
And so he had indicated that basically, listen, I can't go forward on this. I have no evidence that it's true. Well, the public pressure, I'm assuming, was rising because the victim, the woman that had the child, was becoming pretty public.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2287 - Josh Dubin & J.D. Tomlinson
She was organizing the other parents, was, as you well know, you can't get these parents together and start, you know, talking about the case because it just compromises so much. Now, to the police credit, they would try to tell these individuals, you can't meet and talk about the case, but they did anyways.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2287 - Josh Dubin & J.D. Tomlinson
So then a bunch of erratic stories turned into one pretty substantial story that pretty much stayed all the way through is that she would drive allegedly these kids to a house and they would take them down to the basement. And pretty much every child said that it was a basement that they went to. It turns out, for example, Joseph Smith didn't even have a basement. It was a slab home.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2287 - Josh Dubin & J.D. Tomlinson
of a million facts that are true that are that are so disturbing about the case and so when I started to look at it the funny part is during the first three or four months of me evaluating it I had a couple investigators that with me and we were reading only exculpatory information Nancy didn't do it we don't think a crime occurred and I was wondering when am I gonna start finding the inculpatory information when we're gonna start seeing the guilt and
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2287 - Josh Dubin & J.D. Tomlinson
And it just really never happened. And so when I exonerated these two individuals that were clearly innocent, she had done 15 years, Joe. He had done 25. I was in court, and my chief of staff and I had written something to kind of indicate to the court, and I apologized to them for what had occurred to them.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2287 - Josh Dubin & J.D. Tomlinson
After the hearing, Mark Gotsi of the Ohio Innocence Project came up to me and said, J.D., I've got to tell you something. You're the only prosecutor I've ever heard actually apologize to a defendant. Joe, imagine how remarkable that statement is.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2287 - Josh Dubin & J.D. Tomlinson
We took 40 years of your life combined, but we're not even going to apologize to you. Now, probably because they're assuming that it's going to protect the state's interests better. I'm a firm believer in that if the state suffers, then maybe it deserves to suffer. And that's justice.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2287 - Josh Dubin & J.D. Tomlinson
No, it was because I, yeah, I mean, it was that. I mean, the assistant prosecutor Rosenbaum that you're referring to with these cases, he was the assistant prosecutor. He was heavily tied in with that office because he had been the chief prosecutor for a very long time under an individual by the name of Greg White, who was the Lorain County prosecutor at the time.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2287 - Josh Dubin & J.D. Tomlinson
Now, Greg White doesn't get mentioned. You probably never even heard his name. Now, that's interesting. He was the county prosecutor during that time. He seems to have escaped criticism. I think part of the reason is he's smart enough to be quiet. So when these cases come out in public, he doesn't say very much. But the truth of the matter is the buck stops at the office holder.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2287 - Josh Dubin & J.D. Tomlinson
Two cases, and those are the only two I review. Now, that doesn't mean most of them are probably good. That's the way the statistics are. But I think it was pretty scary, the thought of me going through all those cases, and I think they knew that I was open to that type of stuff.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2287 - Josh Dubin & J.D. Tomlinson
And so I think that created these enemies that I never thought they would go as far as they do. I just never, you know, maybe it's naivete, but I was just, I never assumed that they would go that far. But they did. Yeah.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2287 - Josh Dubin & J.D. Tomlinson
I couldn't believe they were ultimately convicted. I couldn't believe that there were four trials where people believed Avery. You know, I never told you this story, Josh, but I knew one of the lawyers for one of the defendants, but I won't mention names.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2287 - Josh Dubin & J.D. Tomlinson
And I heard from a good source that would hang around with him in the office on Saturday that like almost like almost every Saturday, one of the defendants would call him. And after the phone call, he would cry because he would say that man does not deserve to be there. And I screwed it up.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2287 - Josh Dubin & J.D. Tomlinson
And and so and and I in when I heard that it made sense to me because what in Josh is right I was looking for some reason Why I was making the wrong decision, you know, it's a big decision to decide to maybe try to free four people from prison I want to be sure I want to get there You have to let it from all angles you have to and and I understood I appreciated Josh's tenacity because that's what good defense attorneys do but I had to get there myself and so I had a
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2287 - Josh Dubin & J.D. Tomlinson
I wanted to take my parents to Mexico City. I called my mom and said, we're not going to Mexico City. It's not happening. So we just stayed. And I just but it was so it was almost therapeutic for me because I had been so much stress on my own case. It was nice to divert attention away from me and try to think about something else. So I really immersed myself in it.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2287 - Josh Dubin & J.D. Tomlinson
And I went to crime scene, which I always believe defense attorneys should go to every every case I had. I went to the crime scene. I learned something that I didn't know. But I eventually got there, and it was extraordinary, though. Not only was this case just on this individual, Avery Jr. 's testimony, he might have been the worst witness I've ever seen in my life.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2287 - Josh Dubin & J.D. Tomlinson
I mean, so not only was there no physical evidence that linked these men to it, the only witness that was present was perhaps the worst I'd ever seen.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2287 - Josh Dubin & J.D. Tomlinson
Well, you know, I must have a caveat because I do love and respect Chris Cook. I really do. He's been there for me a lot in my career. Where I disagree with his opinion is the idea that I didn't have any experience with the idea that maybe Tony Sillow couldn't be objective.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2287 - Josh Dubin & J.D. Tomlinson
And I think where I diverge from Judge Cook is that I had a very real experience on why Tony Sillow couldn't be objective when involving the Nancy Smith case. He was involved in that case in the later stages of it. And in my humble opinion, Joe, anybody that looks at that case and doesn't do the right thing is just... It's scary. It's scary. So I did have an experience.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2287 - Josh Dubin & J.D. Tomlinson
And I know that the relationship that he shares with Attorney Rosenbaum, who was the assistant prosecutor, that I know that was a mentor protege type relationship. And so the idea that he's going to be objective in undoing such a major case for someone that's arguably his mentor is almost impossible to conceive.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2287 - Josh Dubin & J.D. Tomlinson
And so I knew that I had to be quick about it, because if I wasn't quick about it, I don't think it would ever be done. And I still don't think it'll ever get done.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2287 - Josh Dubin & J.D. Tomlinson
You know, Joe, I think we're also getting in this dangerous territory where we're not. I mean, the idea that you could ever prove them guilty with this evidence objectively is impossible. Now we're getting in this dangerous territory where we're having to prove their innocence. And that's significant because that is not the standard.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2287 - Josh Dubin & J.D. Tomlinson
And so when the case is that bad that you have to then just continue to try to find out ways to prove these guys innocent, which is, it's difficult. I was talking with my father. I said, I can't prove you didn't kill Marsha Blakely on August 8th, 1991. I can't prove that. So we're in this dangerous territory now where we're trying to actually just argue actual innocence.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2287 - Josh Dubin & J.D. Tomlinson
And the standard is proof beyond a reasonable doubt. It's not even close. It's not even close.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2287 - Josh Dubin & J.D. Tomlinson
And think about this also. The only person to ever place themselves at the murder scene is Avery Jr. He's the only one. And he's the only one that wasn't charged. It's fascinating. He admitted basically to being complicit. Fair enough. I mean, you're at the murder. It's happening. You're there. You're the only one that has been charged.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2287 - Josh Dubin & J.D. Tomlinson
In fact, I think maybe one of the facts you left out, Josh, is in 2004, he implicated his own father. Avery Senior, who went to the police originally. He said, I think he killed her. I think he killed her and told me to tell that story to cover up not only his guilt in killing, that he did know Marsha Blakely. There was some reports that they had a contentious relationship.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2287 - Josh Dubin & J.D. Tomlinson
So, you know, it's very likely that, you know, the two individuals that implicated these individuals may have been involved with the crime. It's fascinating. And, you know, I've just never seen cases like this before. Like I said, I can't stress it enough. If I took this case to a bunch of fifth graders, they would be objectively able to see that this is a crazy bad case.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2287 - Josh Dubin & J.D. Tomlinson
It's like Chris Rock had that joke. It kind of depends on what vagina you fall out of. Right? I mean, I got lucky. I mean, my parents, I didn't come from money, Joe, but my parents are still together. They cared about what I was doing. Did you get your homework done? Did you get your homework done?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2287 - Josh Dubin & J.D. Tomlinson
You know, I mean, and I remember having these clients and it really taught me a lot where it's like they never even had a shot.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2287 - Josh Dubin & J.D. Tomlinson
And, you know, resources are so important when it comes to defending yourself, too. I mean, I remember when I was a kid, I watched the OJ trial. And what $8 million can do is pretty extraordinary. You know, you can have juries that are simultaneously going on. You're testing theories out while the trial's going.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2287 - Josh Dubin & J.D. Tomlinson
And, you know, a lot of these guys that get charged with crimes, they kind of get ushered through the system. You know, sometimes they'll get a good appointed attorney. Sometimes they won't.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2287 - Josh Dubin & J.D. Tomlinson
What bothers me so much is that I gave him that opening. I gave him that opening and somebody was hurt that I cared about very much and used and exploited. And it's not like they're calling her today going, hey, how are you doing? Are you doing OK? I mean, it was simply, you know, political. It was just political in its entirety.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2287 - Josh Dubin & J.D. Tomlinson
Showing by day, Joe Rogan Podcast by night, all day.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2287 - Josh Dubin & J.D. Tomlinson
And I feel like I had a lot more years, Joe, to kind of look at these kind of cases because I was open to it. And when I mentioned that those are just the only two I reviewed, how many more are there? And I'll never see them. And it was because of a mistake I made.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2287 - Josh Dubin & J.D. Tomlinson
You know, I really loved the experience of politics. I was a door-to-door guy, Joe. I didn't have any money in the beginning because nobody gives you money when you first start. And so I just went door-to-door like eight, nine hours a day. My dad would take me. My dad's 75 now, but he was 70 and he would take me.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2287 - Josh Dubin & J.D. Tomlinson
You know what? You look a little too dangerous. I got really good at reading somebody when they came to the door, how quickly I could be, how much time I could take. My goal was to get you to smile, be happy that I show up, and then leave before you ask me to leave. And I really enjoyed doing this. I thought the rest of my career was going to be politics.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2287 - Josh Dubin & J.D. Tomlinson
And so I'm at this kind of interesting crossroads where I don't really know what I'm going to do next.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2287 - Josh Dubin & J.D. Tomlinson
You know what I find most interesting, and Nancy exonerates this, is the lack of bitterness is pretty amazing in some of these exonerees. You're dealing with somebody that did 15 years for a crime, not only that she didn't commit, but that no crime occurred. And she's still not bitter. And they still fight her at every moment.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2287 - Josh Dubin & J.D. Tomlinson
Right now she's battling, you know, there's a statutory remedy for getting paid when you're an innocent individual when you're in jail. But you have a relatively high standard of proving you're innocent to get the money. There's nobody in a better position to prove they're innocent than Nancy Smith and Joseph Allen. And they still fight them tooth and nail every day.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2287 - Josh Dubin & J.D. Tomlinson
I mean, after the case exonerated them, I tried my hardest to forego the interest of the state. And I actually stipulated in a motion that they were innocent, which is very unusual because obviously that's acknowledging that the state screwed up pretty big. And because my goal was to get her paid.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2287 - Josh Dubin & J.D. Tomlinson
I mean, you know, I got criticized from some people that basically, you know, that shouldn't be my role. But my role is, you know, if hurting the state represents justice, then that's what happens. And sometimes it's costly. You put someone in prison for 15 years because you were reckless in the way you did it. then they should deserve compensation. And she was at the peak of her earning years.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2287 - Josh Dubin & J.D. Tomlinson
She was a middle-class woman, but she was at the peak of her life. And I think what I really want to get out today is Amber is her daughter, and she's got several children. And they've become like family to me. And Amber wanted to make sure that I told you how big of a fan she was, Joe. Shout out to Amber. Shout out to Amber. She's going to love that.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2287 - Josh Dubin & J.D. Tomlinson
But the truth of the matter is I got to know them. And I got to know the fact that their story is the untold story. Imagine having your mom leave you. And then for the worst allegations that you could possibly have is child molestation. And so every day they had to fight in school. Every day. And the older brother had to take care of the family.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2287 - Josh Dubin & J.D. Tomlinson
And the fact that she's still fighting to get paid 50-something thousand a year for the time that she was in. That's what the statutory remedy is. And they're still fighting it every minute. Eventually, I had to get off. That seems so crazy. It's so crazy.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2287 - Josh Dubin & J.D. Tomlinson
No. It's pretty well laid out. When we talked about that 2008 hearing with Al Cleveland, I was a young attorney. I was probably 27. And I'd only been in practice for a year. And I remember being in there waiting for my case to be called. I had another client.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2287 - Josh Dubin & J.D. Tomlinson
And I saw one of the most unbelievable interactions I've ever seen in a courtroom still to this day was Al Cleveland begging William Avery Jr. to tell the truth. Begging him. And I didn't know exactly what the facts were. I later found out.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2287 - Josh Dubin & J.D. Tomlinson
But, you know, I'm sitting in this courtroom watching what seemed to be very genuine emotion and a man begging another man just to tell the truth so he can get out of prison. And it stuck with me. And even now, it's like Al's a very charismatic guy. You know, what's devastating is what was his potential.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2287 - Josh Dubin & J.D. Tomlinson
Well, you know, I appreciate you saying that. I think that, like you said, humility is important. And I've always tried to pride myself on humility. admitting when I'm wrong and knowing when I'm wrong and knowing when I don't know. I think one of the problems I see in society now is like everybody wants to know and they don't know. And it's like sacrilegious to say you don't know.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2287 - Josh Dubin & J.D. Tomlinson
And I find that to be really, it's just lying. You know, if you're just guessing, you're just lying, really. It's also foolish. Yeah. And so I try to always put my ego in check. And I'm telling you, I can't stress enough that Doing defense work is really what allows that vision for me to kind of understand where it can happen because I've had innocent clients.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2287 - Josh Dubin & J.D. Tomlinson
And in my experience, you know, it was most likely domestic violence cases because, you know, passions arise. There's cheating going on. There's infidelity. You know, emotions run high. It's easy to make accusations. And so those were the scenarios. Now, obviously, I got to make a caveat. There's very terrible domestic violence cases that are awful.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2287 - Josh Dubin & J.D. Tomlinson
But because of the dynamic between the victim and the perpetrator, that seemed to generate, in my view, any cases that I had that were innocent typically were cases like that where, for example, the allegations didn't match up. So, you know, someone said they struck their head on the curb, but there was no injuries, you know, stuff like that. But it's so easy to get probable cause.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2287 - Josh Dubin & J.D. Tomlinson
Probable cause is very easy. And so, you know, I was so lucky when I got charged. I joked around with Jim Burge, my my co-defendant and mentor for many years who taught me a lot was thank God I've got the smartest lawyer as a co-defendant ever. You know, thank God, you know, because I mean, you know, I was and I also learned that I'm probably not the best client as a lawyer.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2287 - Josh Dubin & J.D. Tomlinson
I used to bitch about clients like me. And I think I'm that way. I'm sitting at the defense table trying to dictate everything to my lawyer. It's like I wasn't the best client. And shout out to Mike Cameron, who was our lawyer, who really had to deal with me.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2287 - Josh Dubin & J.D. Tomlinson
But the truth of the matter is when it happens to you, the only thing I disagree, Josh, is even if it didn't happen to me, I knew that it could happen. I would have listened no matter what. I think that I was briefed about this case in 2022, 23. I was invited down to Cincinnati for a... Ohio Innocence Project, but I think I was probably the only prosecutor in there.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2287 - Josh Dubin & J.D. Tomlinson
But I got to be honest, I never really felt comfortable in the... We would go to Ohio Prosecuting Association meetings, my mentor and I, and we never really fit in. I mean, prosecutions, they're fantastic, but they're almost like the hall monitors in class. You know what I mean? And I always just thought defense attorneys were much more fun to hang out with.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2287 - Josh Dubin & J.D. Tomlinson
But we always kind of... Because I have so much respect for defense attorneys, You know, I remember the presenters would go up and kind of clown on defense attorneys, and I'd look around, and me and Jim were the only ones pissed off. You know, we were pissed off going, hey, what the hell? You know, defense attorneys try to do their thing, man, and thank God.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2287 - Josh Dubin & J.D. Tomlinson
That's what it is. And that's the problem right there, Joe, is really we're all looking for the same thing, justice, and you hit it right on the head. It's about winning. And I almost trust – I trust police much more than I almost do prosecutors because it seems like there's an inherent –
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2287 - Josh Dubin & J.D. Tomlinson
desire for them to get it right and it's it's more of the prosecutors that want to win yeah and uh i just had such a great experience with law enforcement and it they changed my mind because i i didn't really like the narrative and i criticized my own party about it the anti you know law enforcement rhetoric is just unwarranted agreed it's a terribly difficult job that gets no reward and your life is in danger every day
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2287 - Josh Dubin & J.D. Tomlinson
And Joe, when I was county prosecutor, I had about 10 police involved shootings with fatalities in four years. So about two a year, two or three year. Every one of them was good. Every one of them was good. And, you know, I would get with the officers and I had a policy, which is a little unusual, where if I made a decision that a shooting was good, I would make a decision. That's it.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2287 - Josh Dubin & J.D. Tomlinson
It never went to the grand jury. It's easy for prosecutors to kind of just dish it off over the grand jury. Then that's not their responsibility anymore. But I felt like I wasn't going to put something through the grand jury that I didn't believe in. So I had officers that, you know, the difficult part about being a police officer is when you have to use that lethal force.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2287 - Josh Dubin & J.D. Tomlinson
And then you get people armchair quarterbacking it for the next six months. Do you know what I mean? On what you should have done, what you shouldn't have done. And what happens is what they get in the end of that is a congratulations. You're not getting indicted. When in reality, maybe we should say, hey, thank you for saving your partner's life.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2287 - Josh Dubin & J.D. Tomlinson
And thank you for saving the community from a guy that's obviously dangerous enough to pull a weapon on a police officer.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2287 - Josh Dubin & J.D. Tomlinson
And so I always am very careful to kind of parse out the fact that, you know, I'm always amazed by how much patience they really do show.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2287 - Josh Dubin & J.D. Tomlinson
Yes. But those are statistically insignificant almost. When it comes to the grand scheme of things, I mean, it doesn't happen very often. When it does, we have to punish it harshly. But I grew more respectful of police officers the closer I got to them.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2287 - Josh Dubin & J.D. Tomlinson
And I had exonerated two people prior to that. So I had some experience in that.