Jason Horowitz
Appearances
The Daily
How Pope Francis Changed the Catholic Church
There's a saying in the Vatican that personnel is policy. And one of the first things that Francis starts doing is getting rid of people. And so the guy who is in charge of the office that protects the doctrine, the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith it's called, he gets fired.
The Daily
How Pope Francis Changed the Catholic Church
There's an American cardinal named Raymond Burke, who's the head of what is essentially the Supreme Court of the Vatican. He's kicked off. All these figures who are sort of the favorite heroes of the traditionalists and the conservatives in the church, the heads start rolling.
The Daily
How Pope Francis Changed the Catholic Church
It is a bit of a housecleaning is what's going on. And these are figures who, especially in the case of Burke, one of his positions was he was on something called the Congregation of Bishops. And what they do is they pick the next generation of bishops. So that's a big deal, right? Because that means that all the clergy and all the bishops who really run things
The Daily
How Pope Francis Changed the Catholic Church
Can you just describe that scene to us? Sure. Well, earlier in the day, a strange sort of scene because it was mostly tourists and you had a feeling that a lot of people didn't even know what had happened. But as the day went on and pilgrims and people who were there to mourn Francis started arriving, and you could really sense a sort of somber feeling take over.
The Daily
How Pope Francis Changed the Catholic Church
for the next generation are going to be of a different mindset. And that mindset becomes clear is much less traditional and is much more open to debate and much more pastoral. And that's sort of the guiding word for Francis, pastoral. And again, it goes back to the very beginnings with him.
The Daily
How Pope Francis Changed the Catholic Church
And he just wants a bishop and he wants a priest who's going to be with people and helping them work things out. He doesn't want somebody shaking their finger at a parishioner and saying, what we do here. And so that turns out to be a major shift. And it's not changing the laws of the church, the doctrine. What was doctrine the day before Francis got in is still doctrine now.
The Daily
How Pope Francis Changed the Catholic Church
But even if it's not changing the laws, the people who love the laws start thinking that this is a gigantic threat to that old mindset. And what is the reaction among those who see this as a threat? you know, at first they give him some time, you know, they give him a couple years, and then they start saying, well, this is really dangerous. And a couple of them start speaking out.
The Daily
How Pope Francis Changed the Catholic Church
It's very, very unusual to challenge the Pope if you're a cardinal, right? Right. And the whole thing is basically a hierarchy that's based on the idea that the Pope is in charge, and that you might agree, you might disagree, but if you disagree, you probably don't go out and say something because he's the Pope. That changes.
The Daily
How Pope Francis Changed the Catholic Church
The conservatives are so upset and they're so worried that Francis is going to wreck the church that they start even sending in these complicated technical Vatican things called dubias, which are questions. And what they're doing is they're questioning Francis' own understanding of what he's doing. They're saying, you said this thing. Do you really know what you're talking about? Wow.
The Daily
How Pope Francis Changed the Catholic Church
And so Francis, who's very politically savvy— responds in a way that drives them crazy, which is he doesn't even deign to respond. Wow. He ignores them completely. Drives them nuts. Why? Because he doesn't want to give them oxygen. is what I think is what it was. At the time, they're small but noisy, if somewhat powerful, within the Vatican group.
The Daily
How Pope Francis Changed the Catholic Church
But he knows he is a wildly popular figure around the world. He's wildly popular, especially with rank-and-file Catholics. Regular Catholics adore him because they see him as caring about them. And so why would he all of a sudden get into a theological argument with a conservative opposition group within the church, which is not what he sees himself there for? So he ignores them.
The Daily
How Pope Francis Changed the Catholic Church
But while he ignores them, they don't go away. They keep building momentum. And many of them happen to be American because the American church is extremely conservative, traditionally very conservative. And in America, there is a lot of money and there is a lot of media. And those two things amplify the opposition to Francis.
The Daily
How Pope Francis Changed the Catholic Church
And it becomes also very much attached to and married to populist politics. So you have people like Steve Bannon coming to Rome.
The Daily
How Pope Francis Changed the Catholic Church
And he's using his outlets to try and, you know, amplify the messages that are coming out of the conservative American church. And it ends up being this sort of strange ecosystem with a common target, and that is Francis.
The Daily
How Pope Francis Changed the Catholic Church
And by the end of the evening, there were tens of thousands of people there paying tribute to a pope who had led the church for a dozen years, but more important than that, who had pointed the church in a new direction. That a lot of them really hoped the church would continue following. And some were there also, maybe hoping it took a turn.
The Daily
How Pope Francis Changed the Catholic Church
It keeps getting bigger and bigger. You know, I remember being in a basement of a hotel where all the entire opposition to Francis, essentially, within the Vatican had gathered. Wow. And there was Cardinal Burke on the dais. And he basically said that we have a problem where we think the pope might be a heretic, right? He couches his language.
The Daily
How Pope Francis Changed the Catholic Church
Yeah, and it wasn't unusual in that crowd, right? They had basically become convinced that, oh, we have a major problem here. We have a pope who doesn't believe in what the Catholic Church believes in.
The Daily
How Pope Francis Changed the Catholic Church
Then eventually you have actually accusations levied against Francis, accusing him of knowing about child sexual abuse and hiding it.
The Daily
How Pope Francis Changed the Catholic Church
And it ends up being a full-on sort of revolt against Francis. He tries to stay above it. But I remember I asked him once on a flight, I said, you know, these people, they can't stand you. And they're talking about breaking apart from the church. What do you think? I mean, what's your opinion about this? And he basically said something that I thought was really interesting.
The Daily
How Pope Francis Changed the Catholic Church
He said, look, the history of the church is very, very long. There's been lots of schisms, right? These people breaking apart. I hope they don't do it. But if they do it, and he sort of shrugged and he said, then they do it. I'm not scared. In other words, he's saying, you know, have a party, guys. If you really want to break away off on this. He's daring them.
The Daily
How Pope Francis Changed the Catholic Church
Yeah, he was saying like he was playing chicken with them. Because on some level, he knows they're probably not going to do it. They're probably not going to do it. And it's also not what he thinks it's about, right? Right? He thinks that this is a distraction from doing the mission of the church, which is going out and being pastors to people who need their help.
The Daily
How Pope Francis Changed the Catholic Church
Exactly. I think what these initial sort of symbolic changes that Francis does, that what they do is they whet the appetite of liberals in the Catholic Church who start thinking, oh my God, this guy's actually going to make huge changes. And they're waiting and then they're waiting some more. And I think it starts dawning on liberals that maybe he's actually not going to change anything.
The Daily
How Pope Francis Changed the Catholic Church
And that maybe this is actually symbolic. And the very things that upset the conservatives in a way also upset the liberals because it's not enough. Right. for the liver. Fascinating. Right? What's the definition of not enough? Well, I mean, if you look across the board, there's things where he seemed to walk right up to the line on. For example, remember when we talked about divorce?
The Daily
How Pope Francis Changed the Catholic Church
It seemed like it was, he had opened the door, he was going to walk right through it. Instead, all he did was crack open the door. He never actually made the change. But then, even on, you know, sort of the hot-button topics of the Catholic Church, such as women becoming priests, no movement on that. Women becoming deacons, he... closes the door on that as well.
The Daily
How Pope Francis Changed the Catholic Church
He allows a little bit of debate, but it's debate that he's allowing and he's not changing the rules. And so at a certain point, it starts dawning on liberals in the church that, wait a minute, maybe this guy's actually not going to change anything. Maybe this is all about sort of redirecting the ship, but where are we going to go? Is he going to move it forward?
The Daily
How Pope Francis Changed the Catholic Church
In a new direction, or an old direction, depending on how you look at it.
The Daily
How Pope Francis Changed the Catholic Church
I think that the important way to see this and the important way Francis saw this is that the church is much bigger than Europe and the United States. The future of the church, if you look around, is in Africa, it is in Asia. And if you make these big changes, right, you are going to lose a lot of people.
The Daily
How Pope Francis Changed the Catholic Church
So on LGBTQ Catholics, right, which was a major issue, especially for people in the United States and Europe. He opened the church, right? He let people in, but he wouldn't change the rules. Maybe because in Africa, homosexuality amongst Catholics is viewed very, very negatively.
The Daily
How Pope Francis Changed the Catholic Church
What Europe or the United States would view as progress would be viewed as a deal breaker for the place that actually has people and has the future of the church, right? So I think if there was a conservative argument that Francis came to understand or accept was that the unity of the church was extremely important.
The Daily
How Pope Francis Changed the Catholic Church
And maybe he didn't want to be the guy who destroyed the whole thing over, you know, what might in a way be an interest group, you know, a Western liberal interest group. And I think really what he believes is that he believes that the church is going to be around a long time.
The Daily
How Pope Francis Changed the Catholic Church
And what he did is he opened up these debates and he wants the church to reach a sort of consensus on these things so that it can move together. Now that's really hard, right? Because the world's a big place with lots of different views and lots of different Catholics. He thinks differently. But I think that he thinks to make those big changes to doctrine and to law is
The Daily
How Pope Francis Changed the Catholic Church
You want everyone to be on board, or at least a consensus that you feel like you're not going to break the church apart.
The Daily
How Pope Francis Changed the Catholic Church
I think you're right that he's got a very tricky balancing act, right? I think for Francis, it's not just about being relevant, which he desperately wants the church to be relevant in the lives of Catholics all around the world, but it's not just about being relevant in the fastest growing places or the places where the future of the church is.
The Daily
How Pope Francis Changed the Catholic Church
I think for Francis, he also wants to make sure that the Catholics in Europe and the United States are still part of this giant mission. But I think what he has little patience for, and I think this is where he ran into trouble with some of the American conservatives, is what he views as ideological or politically motivated dissent.
The Daily
How Pope Francis Changed the Catholic Church
I think when he senses that the motivation behind this has more to do with power, more to do with the word he uses, which he hates more than anything, is clericalism, the idea that a priest is higher than his flock, it turns him off immediately. And I think that's what he was trying to sort of rid the church of.
The Daily
How Pope Francis Changed the Catholic Church
Yeah, I agree with you. I think in many ways he's sort of the pope of great expectations that are never fulfilled on either side. And that doesn't mean, though, that he didn't do anything, right? I think that even though he doesn't change the rules that many liberals were hoping for and that he doesn't break the place, which is what many conservatives were worried about,
The Daily
How Pope Francis Changed the Catholic Church
I think that he does something that's really important, which is he sort of changes the priorities or the idea of what the Catholic Church is around for. And that, I think, was the thing that was most important to him. And his supporters would argue that he did a pretty good job of changing priorities.
The Daily
How Pope Francis Changed the Catholic Church
people's minds or at least some people's minds about what the church is here for and it's pretty simple his idea of the church was just it's full of priests and nuns and all these people institution who are there for people and to bring the faith closer to the people and everything else is sort of a distraction and that seems really basic but
The Daily
How Pope Francis Changed the Catholic Church
And when I think of Francis, I think of sort of a dividing line in the Roman Catholic Church, that there are those who see him as finally a breath of fresh air, who came in willing to introduce or at least entertain reforms that would thrust the church into modernity. And so on the liberal sort of side of the church, they saw in Francis...
The Daily
How Pope Francis Changed the Catholic Church
He would argue, I think that, yeah, it's basic and that's not what we were doing. For decades, we were so obsessed with how we dressed and which way we faced when we said this prayer and what prayer we said that we forgot what we were here for. And so I think what his entire pontificate was really about was reminding people why the church exists in his view.
The Daily
How Pope Francis Changed the Catholic Church
And it's a big ship, the Catholic Church, right? It's 1.3 billion people. It's been around for 2,000 years. It's not easy to make big changes. There's an enormous bureaucracy that tries to stop change. But I think that he moved things around. enough that it's very hard to say he did nothing. He also opened up debates, which is something that now people forget.
The Daily
How Pope Francis Changed the Catholic Church
There were things you could not talk about. And more, do you remember when I said that within the church personnel as policy? Well, Francis named a lot of new cardinals and a lot of new bishops. And those people tend to see the church the way that Francis does.
The Daily
How Pope Francis Changed the Catholic Church
Which means that going forward in the future, the people picking the next pope within a couple of weeks are going to be people who see the church more like Francis does, who probably want more of a pastor than someone who's going to be defending doctrine and rules.
The Daily
How Pope Francis Changed the Catholic Church
Yeah, I think what Francis ultimately decided is that he was not going to be the guy who was going to make the change, but he was going to create the circumstances, the ability to discuss things, but also the personnel, the actual people who might be more willing, even than he was, to make the actual changes. So, I mean, when people look back now at Francis, was it a revolution that he led?
The Daily
How Pope Francis Changed the Catholic Church
Maybe not, but I think it's very hard to argue that he didn't make a big change within the Catholic Church.
The Daily
How Pope Francis Changed the Catholic Church
The guy who was finally going to go to bat for them and who was going to make these changes and who was going to make the church much more relevant. On the other side of the coin, you had conservatives who had been in power for decades with John Paul II and Benedict XVI. And they first saw Francis as actually on their side, but then came to fear him.
The Daily
How Pope Francis Changed the Catholic Church
And came to fear him and what he might do to the doctrine of the church, to what they consider the truth of the church, that he would basically shake it so much that he would break it. And as a result, there was a robust opposition to him within the Vatican and beyond. And I think in the end, it's not clear what side he's on because I don't think he thought of himself that way.
The Daily
How Pope Francis Changed the Catholic Church
I think he thought of himself as doing something very different, being a pope for not the partisan sides of the church, but for the flock.
The Daily
How Pope Francis Changed the Catholic Church
So Francis is born as Jorge Bergoglio. He's from Buenos Aires in Argentina. He's from a very humble neighborhood. You know, he's not poor, but he's more sort of middle class. But just a normal family of Italian descent. His grandmother, who he was deeply close to and was deeply religious, was an Italian immigrant.
The Daily
How Pope Francis Changed the Catholic Church
And also that experience of growing up in an immigrant neighborhood, I think, opened his eyes to people trying to make it. And there were also influences throughout his life and his upbringing that I think had a lasting effect. He wanted to be a chemist at a certain point. And he had teachers who had communist politics.
The Daily
How Pope Francis Changed the Catholic Church
And it didn't mean that he was a communist, right, which is what some of his critics said. But he sees the world from a bottom-up point of view. And that just imbues him with an empathy that in a way is his sort of guiding light, right, through everything.
The Daily
How Pope Francis Changed the Catholic Church
Right. The Roman Catholic faith was always really present in Bergoglio's life. So he had a sense of the church as an important institution in one's life. And, you know, at a certain point, he's a teenager. He has a bunch of friends. He's going to go hang out with them. But he passes the Basilica of St. Joseph and he has an epiphany.
The Daily
How Pope Francis Changed the Catholic Church
He feels a calling and he decides that, no, he's not going to be a chemist. He is going to dedicate his life to the church. He wants to be a priest. And that changes his life and it changes the life of the church eventually.
The Daily
How Pope Francis Changed the Catholic Church
So Francis becomes a priest, and he's a Jesuit priest, which is a Catholic order probably best known for being intellectuals. They care a lot about education. They travel around the world. They believe a lot in social justice. And even though the hierarchy isn't necessarily what interests him, he climbs the hierarchy.
The Daily
How Pope Francis Changed the Catholic Church
And eventually he becomes the Cardinal of Buenos Aires, which is a huge figure in Argentina, a huge figure within South America.
The Daily
How Pope Francis Changed the Catholic Church
And stories start being told about this cardinal in Buenos Aires who is a little bit different. And I was covering the Vatican back then. And I remember there was this image of him which made the rounds. And it was this cardinal taking the bus. And that was just something you didn't see much. You know, I thought maybe that this is someone to pay attention to.
The Daily
How Pope Francis Changed the Catholic Church
Yeah, Francis, I mean, even before he was Pope Francis, he was sort of a master of gestures. It showed his flock, the entire country, that he didn't think that he was better than them. That was a talent he had.
The Daily
How Pope Francis Changed the Catholic Church
So I think it's important to remember where the church was in 2013, the year Francis became pope. It had been governed and led for decades by a very conservative streak. And the pope at the time was Benedict XVI, who had been the keeper of the orthodoxy, the guardian of the church's doctrine. And he retired, which shocked the entire world. Right, popes don't retire. Right, it was a shock.
The Daily
How Pope Francis Changed the Catholic Church
And the question is, okay, where is the church going to go now? And so now maybe the church needed to try something new. It had been with the Italians for centuries. Then it tried Europe. And so the idea was, well, these cardinals were probably going to look elsewhere from Europe.
The Daily
How Pope Francis Changed the Catholic Church
That's right. It means with a key. They lock them in with a key so that they can't come out until they pick a new pope. But there's a small time frame before that begins in which the cardinals can sort of... Because you're not allowed to campaign, and campaign is definitely frowned upon. But you can give speeches about what you think is most important for the church, right?
The Daily
How Pope Francis Changed the Catholic Church
So Francis Bergoglio at the time gives this speech, which is very short. And basically what he says is, we have... closed the door in on ourselves. We are so self-referential. It's time not just for us to open the windows and let fresh air in. It's time for us to get out. We have got to get out of the church and go to what he calls the peripheries, right? So far away.
The Daily
How Pope Francis Changed the Catholic Church
We need to go where people are. We need to sort of be on the streets with these people. And he means it sort of literally, right? He wants priests to get out of their churches and go talk to people. But he also means it's time for us to stop being so obsessed with ourselves and go talk to people and deal with the lives they're actually living.
The Daily
How Pope Francis Changed the Catholic Church
We need to go to them to show them that we care and show them why we think that this is the best way to live. And that speech really sort of knocks everyone's socks off. And they decide when they go into the conclave, this is the guy who's going to lead us
The Daily
How Pope Francis Changed the Catholic Church
And I remember that they announced the pope's name in Latin.
The Daily
How Pope Francis Changed the Catholic Church
And what was also very important, I think, is the name he took. So he's the first pope ever to take the name Francis, who's a 13th century saint who is known for being extremely humble and vows of poverty. And by taking the name Francis, that was, again, this is a master of gestures, already a strong sign to his fellow cardinals and to the world that his priorities were going to be different.
The Daily
How Pope Francis Changed the Catholic Church
One of the things I remember is that as soon as he came out onto the balcony, he was just more colloquial. And, you know, one of the first things he said is like, you know, good evening. Right? And it just—it seemed less sort of like a regal address to the masses below him than someone who people could relate to. Right.
The Daily
How Pope Francis Changed the Catholic Church
Yeah. And he's doing all these things that symbolically say, wow, something's totally different here. But you're right. This is an institution. So the question was, you know, was this all style or was there going to be substance here? So right away, he says something which completely shocks the world, which is when he's asked about gay priests. And he says, well, who am I to judge? Right.
The Daily
How Pope Francis Changed the Catholic Church
Right, right, exactly. This is the Pope. This is the guy, like his job description is judging, right? And he says, but you know, that's not what I'm here for, right? And eyes go wide when he says that and people start saying, well, wait a minute, maybe this is something really different here. So there's tons of these little things and sometimes not so little things, right?
The Daily
How Pope Francis Changed the Catholic Church
He starts saying, if you're a married, divorced person in the church, maybe you can receive communion again, right? And now that's been a no-no, right? That's against the doctrine. Everyone is all of a sudden paying attention to Rome where you have this guy who is really turning the church on its head. And people start talking about something called the Francis effect.
The Daily
How Pope Francis Changed the Catholic Church
Are all these people gonna start coming back to the church and filling the pews because they love Francis so much? And then the sort of the policy questions start arising, especially from people who have been out in the cold for a long time in the Catholic church, right?
The Daily
How Pope Francis Changed the Catholic Church
People who want married priests, people who want women to be priests, people who want all sorts of things are saying, wait, maybe this is the guy who's going to finally change things.
The Daily
How Pope Francis Changed the Catholic Church
Exactly. And he feels very much like a man of the moment. Think about it. At that time, you have Barack Obama in the White House. You have Angela Merkel in Germany. You have liberal leaders across Europe. You have this feeling that, you know, there's this migration crisis and it's time to help these people, right? And, you know, we've got to find a solution to this.
The Daily
How Pope Francis Changed the Catholic Church
He becomes a beacon on issues like climate change, which he cares deeply about.
The Daily
How Pope Francis Changed the Catholic Church
So on that, on questions of human rights and human dignity.
The Daily
How Pope Francis Changed the Catholic Church
And he seems very much to be on the forefront of all of this, right? He's not just a spiritual leader stuck in the Vatican. He's a global player. His Twitter account, at Pontifex, ranks in the top five most searched words on the internet. And he's everywhere.
The Daily
How Pope Francis Changed the Catholic Church
It's hard to overstate how big a deal Francis was. I mean, all over the world, everyone felt it, but especially if you were someone covering the Vatican, which had sort of become sleepy and irrelevant in a way to the big discussions going on. All of a sudden,
The Daily
How Pope Francis Changed the Catholic Church
You know, the Roman Catholic Church had a leader who was not just at the table, but in some ways, you know, was sort of dictating the agenda.
The Daily
How Pope Francis Changed the Catholic Church
But while he's sort of getting all this adoration, within the church itself, there starts to be a feeling that, not just of bemusement, but of real concern amongst conservatives, that, wait a minute, is this guy actually going to start changing the rules of the church? And the rules of the church isn't just sort of legislation, right? It's the truth for them.
The Daily
How Pope Francis Changed the Catholic Church
And so the idea that you would have a pope who is extremely popular using that popularity to change doctrine, what they care most about, starts really causing a lot of fear within conservative circles and a backlash starts building.
The Daily
An American Pope
In 2015, he appointed him bishop. in Peru, but he also ends up bringing them back to Rome. And in 2023, he ends up heading up the Office for Bishops, which is this major job inside the Vatican, which is in charge of all the bishops all across the world.
The Daily
An American Pope
Yeah, he entrusts him with not just the bureaucracy, but the pastors all around the world, right? The people who are actually going to be, you know, running dioceses, the people who are going to be, you know, picking which priests are in parishes. Basically, what he's doing is he's helping Francis seed the future of the Roman Catholic Church with bishops. And that's a major thing.
The Daily
An American Pope
And his star keeps rising. And in 2023, he was made a cardinal. So if you think about that, even two years ago, you know, Prevost would not have even been allowed in the Sistine Chapel to pick the next pope. And now, you know, he's not just in there, he becomes the next pope.
The Daily
An American Pope
Yeah, it happened really quickly. It was the second day. A lot of people thought we were going to be in a long conclave. It seemed like they had a lot of new cardinals who needed to get to know each other and wasn't very clear how long they would be in there.
The Daily
An American Pope
So I think what's clear is that Pope Leo has many similar views to Francis, especially on issues that really matter right now, like, for example, migration. I think that it's pretty clear that Pope Leo is going to be a champion of migrants in much the same way that Francis was. On social issues, I think he's pretty much in the Catholic mainstream, which is pretty much don't touch doctrine, right?
The Daily
An American Pope
That there's Catholic teaching and that's not going to be changed and it's not to be touched. In 2012, he made it pretty clear that he was not going to be somebody who was going to, for example, change church teaching on homosexuality. He referred to it as the, quote, homosexual lifestyle and not in a positive way.
The Daily
An American Pope
So I think that what we can expect from him along those lines is someone who stands up for, you know, opposition to gay marriage and birth control, the sort of usual things that, you know, Catholic conservative would do. But then again, you know, when Pope Francis was a cardinal in Buenos Aires, he was also considered, you know, your classic conservative. And he changed when he became pope.
The Daily
An American Pope
And so we really don't know what Pope Leo is going to be like. Just because Cardinal Prevost held certain views, a lot of things can just change.
The Daily
An American Pope
The idea was that if it was as quick as it was, as it's been actually pretty often going back to the 1930s, it would be someone who was a frontrunner, someone we had been hearing a lot about. And that's not exactly how it shook out.
The Daily
An American Pope
Yeah, I think that is the key question, and it's going to be fascinating to watch. Pope Francis had a really antagonistic relationship with the United States. At certain points, he almost seemed hostile to it. He wasn't a fan of its style of capitalism. He thought that the bishops' conference in the United States was sort of out to get him at times. Hmm.
The Daily
An American Pope
Pope Leo, instead, you know, he's from there. He knows all these people. You know, he's from Chicago, right? So it's just going to be fascinating to see how he navigates all of this because the United States is deeply important for the Roman Catholic Church.
The Daily
An American Pope
I think maybe one of the reasons that Pope Leo is Pope right now is because the church might be able to address some of its financial difficulties online. with greater contributions from big donors in the United States. That said, he also is very much in the mold of Francis. That doesn't mean he's going to be as combative as Francis sometimes was. He might find a more diplomatic way.
The Daily
An American Pope
But I think that, especially dealing with the political sort of landscape of the United States, he is going to find places where he is in deep disagreement with the current administration. And, you know, it's going to be fascinating to see how he navigates that.
The Daily
An American Pope
It's also going to be interesting to see if his Americanness, if his nationality is used against him by the American administration, because perhaps he seems less foreign. Perhaps he seems less special because he's, you know, he's one of ours. So there's a fear, I think, within the church that he might be drawn into political fights that popes don't want to be drawn in.
The Daily
An American Pope
And I think he's going to be very reluctant to be drawn into that. I think what he wants, and this is especially from what he said out on the balcony, I think he really sees himself possibly being a bridge and perhaps a bridge back to America and to the bishops there and maybe even to the administration there just to say, well, let's lower the temperature. Let's see if we can work together.
The Daily
An American Pope
Yeah, and I think it also reflects the way the church sees the world a little bit. I don't think that they see Leo as an American. I don't think nationality is what they're looking at. I think that they see him as someone who has this deep experience in the things that they care about, right? It's not where you're from necessarily. It's what you've done in a way.
The Daily
An American Pope
He's sort of checked all the boxes, but I think the one that's most important is that he has sort of the blessing of Pope Francis. It might be a posthumous blessing at this point, but for followers of Francis, I think when Leo stepped out onto the balcony...
The Daily
An American Pope
And when he spoke in a language that they understood to be the language of Francis, they felt much more comfortable than perhaps if somebody else had stepped out there as Pope. Well, Jason, thank you very much.
The Daily
An American Pope
Like everybody else, I'm looking at a chimney surrounded by seagulls and trying to figure out if anything's coming out of it, and if it's smoke, if it's black smoke, they have an inconclusive vote, or if it is white smoke, which means we have a pope.
The Daily
An American Pope
Yeah, I think that that dynamic was at play in the conclave. But I also think that there was something else going on. I think that the cardinals saw all these people come to Francis's funeral. I think that they realized that they had had a pope who for 12 years really put the Catholic Church on the world stage. I think that they started thinking, do we really want... a bureaucrat?
The Daily
An American Pope
Hi, this is Jason Horowitz, the Rome Bureau Chief of the New York Times, and I'm here in St. Peter's Square. looking up at the roof of the Sistine Chapel where cardinals are inside voting on who the next pope should be.
The Daily
An American Pope
Do we really want someone who might suck the air out of this? And don't we really want, and this was what was most important to Francis, maybe a pastor, the pastor to guide the church and whether it be a priest in the parish, a bishop in a city, or as it turns out, maybe a Pope in Rome.
The Daily
An American Pope
Well, full disclosure, we sort of know nothing because in a way it's the I like to think of it as sort of the most beautifully frescoed black box in the world. The Sistine Chapel, when the cardinals go in there to elect the pope, we don't know what the dynamics really are. We don't know what the votes are.
The Daily
An American Pope
Yeah, so the cardinals basically go into the Sistine Chapel and they take an oath of absolute secrecy. And at a certain point, the doors close after one of the prelates says, Ex Domnus, everybody out. And everyone who's not a voting cardinal, you know, whether it be members of the choir or bishops, everybody starts filing out and the doors close.
The Daily
An American Pope
So as 133 voting cardinals entered into the Sistine Chapel, there were two guys who didn't make it in because they weren't feeling well.
The Daily
An American Pope
and of those 133 you need 89 votes you need two-thirds to become pope so that seems simple enough but two-thirds a majority in a college that represents the entire world where not everyone is speaking italian which is supposed to be the working language of the church which probably slowed things down the first night Anyway, it's very difficult to hit that threshold.
The Daily
An American Pope
And on the first day, which was Wednesday, they have one vote. And we kind of expected that it would be inconclusive. And in fact, it was. And the way that the church shows that is that black smoke starts billowing out of a chimney atop the Sistine Chapel. But when they leave the Sistine Chapel, they're still sequestered. They still have a vow of secrecy, but they aren't taking an oath of silence.
The Daily
An American Pope
They're allowed to talk to each other. And that's when the politicking starts, right? So they have seen in that first vote who's a strong candidate, who maybe is softer than they expected. And that's the really interesting part. And, you know, it could be over the cafeteria table. It could be people visiting one another's rooms. It could be hallway discussions.
The Daily
An American Pope
But I think what is happening inside is candidates are realizing whether or not they have the votes or not. And that's when coalitions start building because a candidate who thought
The Daily
An American Pope
maybe he could be pope realizes he won't be pope and so what does he do with his support does he want to throw it to a candidate that he supports to prevent to block somebody he doesn't want so that's when all the regional dynamics all the political dynamics all the theological dynamics really come together and it's all out of view
The Daily
An American Pope
So they came back the next morning and we came back the next morning and they started voting again and we started looking at the chimney again. And pretty early in the day, we saw a black smoke, which meant that, again, they had not found their candidate.
The Daily
An American Pope
But it was sort of a strange thing because throughout the day, just amongst insiders and people who follow this, there was sort of a sense that maybe though this afternoon, they would sort of form a consensus and that the smoke might not be black. And once you realize it's white, you realize that something momentous has happened. And then a few minutes later, the bell of St.
The Daily
An American Pope
Peter's Basilica starts tolling. And marching bands start surrounding the square. And the Swiss guards start marching up. And all of a sudden, you're back in a royal court from 600 years ago. And then the curtains part and a cardinal dressed in red comes out onto the balcony. And the first thing he says is, Habemus Papam. Habemus Papam, which means we have a pope.
The Daily
An American Pope
And it's revealed that he's taken the name Pope Leo XIV, and all of a sudden we have an American pope. And then a few minutes later, the new pope steps out onto the balcony. And what does he say, this pope from America? So this pope from America comes out and he is speaking Italian. Peace be with you all. And he addresses the crowd and he says, peace be upon you.
The Daily
An American Pope
And he makes it clear that he sees himself in the continuum of Francis. He names Francis twice. He talks about wanting a missionary church, and that's something also very much in the mold of Francis. He wants pastors. He wants a church that goes out there. He wants a church that's close to people.
The Daily
An American Pope
He talks about something which to secular ears probably doesn't mean anything at all, but it's something called synodality, which is this idea of consulting with the faithful, having their ideas sort of trickle up. to the church and through big meetings with bishops and laypeople. So that was Francis' major vision for how the church worked.
The Daily
An American Pope
And the fact that Pope Leo said that on the balcony was taken as a huge sign that that was going to continue. Amen.
The Daily
An American Pope
So by the end of his speech, everyone in that piazza who was hungry for more Francis, who wanted to make sure that the church continued to be inclusive, who wanted that pastoral sense that Francis cared about so much, everyone who wanted that to keep going felt like that legacy was perhaps protected.
The Daily
An American Pope
So like Francis, yes, but I don't think we got another Francis. I think that there are differences here. I think that they're not only two different people with two different backgrounds, but I think that maybe they have different ideas about the world and maybe the church. The issue is though, is that we don't really know much right now about Pope Leo. He's only been Pope for a few hours.
The Daily
An American Pope
There's not much paper on him. So that's why we're all looking at his life story. We're looking at his career. We're looking at his path in the church, trying to figure out if there are clues to how he might actually govern as Pope Leo. We're trying to figure out if, in fact, past is prologue here.
The Daily
An American Pope
Well, the first and, you know, in a way, most interesting thing about Pope Leo is that he was born in Chicago. And for a long time, the idea of having an American pope was just a non-starter. So to see birthplace Chicago, Illinois, on the biography of the Vatican website right now for the Holy Roman Pontiff is sort of stunning.
The Daily
An American Pope
Sure. Well, there's a long tradition of the idea that it was just impossible to have an American pope first because of geography. It was just seen as too far before planes and trains and things started moving fast. But then once America became a superpower, there was really a feeling, especially after World War II, that you couldn't put – so much power in the hands of one country.
The Daily
An American Pope
You couldn't have the major superpower on Earth, the largest economy, the country that was delivering the Marshall Plan and sculpting the global order. You couldn't also have someone from that country also be the head of the Roman Catholic Church. That's fascinating. So for a long time, it was just seen as concentrating too much power in the hands of one country.
The Daily
An American Pope
Yeah, so he was born in Chicago in 1955. And in a way, he's got a very American story. His father was of French and Italian descent. His mother was of Spanish descent. And it's clearly a very religious family. He enters the seminary pretty soon in his adolescence, and he's drawn to the Augustinian Fathers, which is a religious order. And he ends up at Villanova University in Pennsylvania.
The Daily
An American Pope
So, you know, it's also sort of stunning when very American when you think that the Pope went to Villanova, which a lot of people know from March Madness, you know? Right. So what else do we know about him? So like a lot of bright young things in the church, he is sent off to Rome where he studies theology and then he studies canon law.
The Daily
An American Pope
But then his story sort of changes and this sort of very American story takes a more international turn. And he's told this story before.
The Daily
An American Pope
In 1985, Prevost is sent to Peru as a missionary, and that really changes his life.
The Daily
An American Pope
And he spends a lot of time out in Peru and he really becomes committed to the country and to the Catholics there that he ends up taking Peruvian citizenship And it really becomes core to his identity. In many ways, you know, yes, he has dual citizenship, the United States and Peru, but also he sort of projects himself as Peruvian in a way.
The Daily
An American Pope
He's very much, you know, sees himself as part of South America as much as North America.
The Daily
An American Pope
Yeah, I think that that's right. Pope Francis really was shaped by his experience in Argentina. And the brand of Catholicism there was something that I think that Francis saw himself a little bit, perhaps, in Prevost. And that's one of the reasons that, you know, he brought him to Rome.
The Daily
An American Pope
So Michael, do you remember when we talked last time and I mentioned that Francis really believed, like many in the Vatican, that personnel was policy? I do. I think that what he really needed to do was to bring people in who saw the world the way he saw the world. And that's where Prevost came in.