Jamie Feldman

Hi, this is Jamie from Deadheads. This podcast is meant to be listened to in order. So if you would like a better listening experience, make like Julie Andrews and start at the very beginning. It's a very good place to start.

Hi, this is Jamie from Deadheads. This podcast is meant to be listened to in order. So if you would like a better listening experience, make like Julie Andrews and start at the very beginning. It's a very good place to start.

As you can probably guess, they only carry hayseed during the warm weather months. That's right.

As you can probably guess, they only carry hayseed during the warm weather months. That's right.

No, no. Uh, equal and sweet and low? No, white. Well, what is it then? Oh, white or brown?

No, no. Uh, equal and sweet and low? No, white. Well, what is it then? Oh, white or brown?

They just had one dress? So did Anne even like it?

They just had one dress? So did Anne even like it?

Back when she could walk more easily, her favorite place to walk was here, in the mall. What's the first word I ever read? Macy's. Why do you think that was my first word that I read? Because we were always... In the mall? Always. That's all we did. Why did we come here every week? Because it was an activity.

Back when she could walk more easily, her favorite place to walk was here, in the mall. What's the first word I ever read? Macy's. Why do you think that was my first word that I read? Because we were always... In the mall? Always. That's all we did. Why did we come here every week? Because it was an activity.

I love Anne of Green Gables! It's my favorite show!

I love Anne of Green Gables! It's my favorite show!

Before you go, have you heard of ivory?

Before you go, have you heard of ivory?

From Mean Girls to Clueless, popular culture has popularized the idea that modern women love to shop. That we are driven to the mall. In Regina George's convertible. Not with gas power, but with the sheer force of our desire for more and more and more.

From Mean Girls to Clueless, popular culture has popularized the idea that modern women love to shop. That we are driven to the mall. In Regina George's convertible. Not with gas power, but with the sheer force of our desire for more and more and more.

You think that's all I do?

You think that's all I do?

And I couldn't help but wonder, is art reflecting life? Or is life reflecting cart? Sure, we love novelty and beauty, but are these modern portrayals of the shopping-obsessed woman deserved? Think about Anne and her beautiful dress. I can't stop thinking about it.

And I couldn't help but wonder, is art reflecting life? Or is life reflecting cart? Sure, we love novelty and beauty, but are these modern portrayals of the shopping-obsessed woman deserved? Think about Anne and her beautiful dress. I can't stop thinking about it.

Mm-hmm. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Do you think that coming here all the time made me a shopper? I don't know. Dom is nodding.

Mm-hmm. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Do you think that coming here all the time made me a shopper? I don't know. Dom is nodding.

Yeah, if you just buy one thing and keep it forever, how will the wealth increase?

Yeah, if you just buy one thing and keep it forever, how will the wealth increase?

So, this guy, Paul Mazur, he's a bigwig in investment circles in the 1920s. He wrote six books about business, and he was famous for popularizing one of the most influential economic philosophies of the 20th century.

So, this guy, Paul Mazur, he's a bigwig in investment circles in the 1920s. He wrote six books about business, and he was famous for popularizing one of the most influential economic philosophies of the 20th century.

He said... And I quote, we must shape a new mentality in America. How do you shape a mentality? People must be trained to desire, to want new things, even before the old thing had been entirely consumed. Trained? Like circus animals? Man's desires must overshadow his needs. Wait, isn't that what gets us into credit card debt? Now you're thinking like an anthropologist.

He said... And I quote, we must shape a new mentality in America. How do you shape a mentality? People must be trained to desire, to want new things, even before the old thing had been entirely consumed. Trained? Like circus animals? Man's desires must overshadow his needs. Wait, isn't that what gets us into credit card debt? Now you're thinking like an anthropologist.

And just five years after Mazur publishes his sinister soliloquy for shameless stockpiling, a real estate magnate named Bernard London would coin the term planned obsolescence.

And just five years after Mazur publishes his sinister soliloquy for shameless stockpiling, a real estate magnate named Bernard London would coin the term planned obsolescence.

I know, but actually it's just something that happened out in the open. But it gets even better. Really? Perhaps more effective than planned obsolescence. psychological obsolescence. That's the idea that you can't have the old thing because there's something new, something more fashionable, and therefore better.

I know, but actually it's just something that happened out in the open. But it gets even better. Really? Perhaps more effective than planned obsolescence. psychological obsolescence. That's the idea that you can't have the old thing because there's something new, something more fashionable, and therefore better.

Like, maybe if you brought me to museums every weekend, I would... Do what? Maybe if you brought me to the museum every weekend... Maybe I became a more... More of an academic. Yeah. Instead, I just like stuff. Okay, maybe I was putting them on the spot. But this mall was the backdrop for my childhood.

Like, maybe if you brought me to museums every weekend, I would... Do what? Maybe if you brought me to the museum every weekend... Maybe I became a more... More of an academic. Yeah. Instead, I just like stuff. Okay, maybe I was putting them on the spot. But this mall was the backdrop for my childhood.

Now you're getting it.

Now you're getting it.

I think I saw Rosie the Riveter potholder at TJ Maxx.

I think I saw Rosie the Riveter potholder at TJ Maxx.

Ironically iconic. Rosie the Riveter is the symbol of America's great post-industrial interlude, where women were told to get out of the shops and get working for the greater good. We can do it!

Ironically iconic. Rosie the Riveter is the symbol of America's great post-industrial interlude, where women were told to get out of the shops and get working for the greater good. We can do it!

In this colorful ad from Maxwell House Coffee, the same woman who once fastened the steel on warships was now somehow incapable of helping with her own home renovation.

In this colorful ad from Maxwell House Coffee, the same woman who once fastened the steel on warships was now somehow incapable of helping with her own home renovation.

They were no longer portrayed in men's suiting, but suddenly revealed a lot more leg. Heels pumping. Hair shining. Lashes batting.

They were no longer portrayed in men's suiting, but suddenly revealed a lot more leg. Heels pumping. Hair shining. Lashes batting.

We were three generations of women, only each other to hold onto, searching for a way to spend time together, something that could distract us from our differences. My earliest memories, the good ones anyway, mostly exist under the fluorescent lights of the food court. I remember this one year after eight weeks at summer camp. I was in the woods, communing with nature.

We were three generations of women, only each other to hold onto, searching for a way to spend time together, something that could distract us from our differences. My earliest memories, the good ones anyway, mostly exist under the fluorescent lights of the food court. I remember this one year after eight weeks at summer camp. I was in the woods, communing with nature.

They can't even make a decent cup of coffee. So they just get out of the way, go to the store where they belong and buy instant instead. This is maddening. Oh, hey, is that why they call them madmen?

They can't even make a decent cup of coffee. So they just get out of the way, go to the store where they belong and buy instant instead. This is maddening. Oh, hey, is that why they call them madmen?

Exactly us. Prior to the mid-20th century, as far as advertisers were concerned, kids were considered part of the family.

Exactly us. Prior to the mid-20th century, as far as advertisers were concerned, kids were considered part of the family.

We needed nothing. We wanted nothing. We were there to work. But simply existing inside the store would test our will. So are you tempted to buy things? I just get really overwhelmed by the sheer quantity of items. I know. Somehow, despite being seriously overwhelmed. Those are nice. I might have to have those. I caved immediately. Try it on. Shit. You know who's not trying things on?

We needed nothing. We wanted nothing. We were there to work. But simply existing inside the store would test our will. So are you tempted to buy things? I just get really overwhelmed by the sheer quantity of items. I know. Somehow, despite being seriously overwhelmed. Those are nice. I might have to have those. I caved immediately. Try it on. Shit. You know who's not trying things on?

Probably Rachel.

Probably Rachel.

After six months of not shopping, I was alarmed to find out how quickly the deeply ingrained instinct to accumulate was unleashed. Now... egged on by my comrade in consumption, Carol, my acquisitions increased so quickly that I stopped even bothering to try things on. How can you pass it by? Look at the price. It's linen. Yeah. This is nice, actually. I can't see a size.

After six months of not shopping, I was alarmed to find out how quickly the deeply ingrained instinct to accumulate was unleashed. Now... egged on by my comrade in consumption, Carol, my acquisitions increased so quickly that I stopped even bothering to try things on. How can you pass it by? Look at the price. It's linen. Yeah. This is nice, actually. I can't see a size.

Extra large, but it's good for a cover-up. Want to try it on? No, I think I should just get it. Okay. Maybe I'll get this one, too. I'm good.

Extra large, but it's good for a cover-up. Want to try it on? No, I think I should just get it. Okay. Maybe I'll get this one, too. I'm good.

There were no stores or internet or phone for miles. My mom picked me up and asked what I wanted to do first. Smell the mall, I said. I am not exaggerating. This was home to me.

There were no stores or internet or phone for miles. My mom picked me up and asked what I wanted to do first. Smell the mall, I said. I am not exaggerating. This was home to me.

I think I should buy those markers.

I think I should buy those markers.

No, I'm not going to do this. Oh, my God. Good for you.

No, I'm not going to do this. Oh, my God. Good for you.

All right.

All right.

I know.

I know.

Turns out I'm not the only one who has an I don't love shopping disease. Even those of us who say we love it have a complicated answer when we're forced to actually think about it.

Turns out I'm not the only one who has an I don't love shopping disease. Even those of us who say we love it have a complicated answer when we're forced to actually think about it.

She wrote, "...people are preoccupied with consumer goods not because they are brainwashed, but because buying is the one pleasurable activity not only permitted, but actively encouraged by our rulers."

She wrote, "...people are preoccupied with consumer goods not because they are brainwashed, but because buying is the one pleasurable activity not only permitted, but actively encouraged by our rulers."

In a fun twist of messaging, he advised Americans to do exactly the opposite of what they told Rosie to do during World War II.

In a fun twist of messaging, he advised Americans to do exactly the opposite of what they told Rosie to do during World War II.

But if anything is a matter of life or death, it's what happens to those objects when we're done using them, which is a shorter and shorter period of time each year.

But if anything is a matter of life or death, it's what happens to those objects when we're done using them, which is a shorter and shorter period of time each year.

Not one of us in this group of four women came to TJ Maxx because we needed something. And three out of the four of us got something that we didn't need and brought it all the way home.

Not one of us in this group of four women came to TJ Maxx because we needed something. And three out of the four of us got something that we didn't need and brought it all the way home.

I just, you don't always see things that say Nana. You always see things that say grandma. We need purpose. This is like really nice. Look at that. See, that's a good deal. We need to imagine. You could wear that to a loan party. We could wear it after dinner. We need to enjoy art and beauty. See, I could just spend the entire time in this department. I'm just looking at everything.

I just, you don't always see things that say Nana. You always see things that say grandma. We need purpose. This is like really nice. Look at that. See, that's a good deal. We need to imagine. You could wear that to a loan party. We could wear it after dinner. We need to enjoy art and beauty. See, I could just spend the entire time in this department. I'm just looking at everything.

We need to spend time together. And I'm proud of you for not getting this because it's not your skin color. And I'm proud of you. Thank you. And all of this is free.

We need to spend time together. And I'm proud of you for not getting this because it's not your skin color. And I'm proud of you. Thank you. And all of this is free.

When we walked out of the store into the blinding summer sunshine, we were surrounded by cars. There was pavement and asphalt as far as the eye could see.

When we walked out of the store into the blinding summer sunshine, we were surrounded by cars. There was pavement and asphalt as far as the eye could see.

Our economy has turned stores into our oases, the most easily accessible and default place to be a human. When I asked my nana, who now dons a very cute $14.99 nana necklace, why we spent so much time in the mall, she said, There's nothing else to do. That's what's entertainment. Right, yeah. But while that might have worked for her, it doesn't work for me. There is more to do.

Our economy has turned stores into our oases, the most easily accessible and default place to be a human. When I asked my nana, who now dons a very cute $14.99 nana necklace, why we spent so much time in the mall, she said, There's nothing else to do. That's what's entertainment. Right, yeah. But while that might have worked for her, it doesn't work for me. There is more to do.

And when I do those things, I'm sticking it to this system that isn't serving me.

And when I do those things, I'm sticking it to this system that isn't serving me.

That doesn't want us to know that we were born with everything we need. Each other.

That doesn't want us to know that we were born with everything we need. Each other.

We'll try to stop being material girls, even if we're forced to live in a material world. We'll investigate how our livelihoods are both dependent on and threatened by this toxic consumer cycle. And we'll try not to lose the thread on the cost of thread by learning how to make our own lingerie. And we'll try to square our love of discounts with our love of life by singing the gospel of the earth.

We'll try to stop being material girls, even if we're forced to live in a material world. We'll investigate how our livelihoods are both dependent on and threatened by this toxic consumer cycle. And we'll try not to lose the thread on the cost of thread by learning how to make our own lingerie. And we'll try to square our love of discounts with our love of life by singing the gospel of the earth.

And this episode was mixed by Jeff Seeley. Thanks to every woman who shared her debt and shopping stories with us. Thanks to Susan Strasser for caring enough about the things that come before and after the mass market. Most of all, thanks to Samantha Feldman and Carol Bass for taking us on a tour of their favorite places.

And this episode was mixed by Jeff Seeley. Thanks to every woman who shared her debt and shopping stories with us. Thanks to Susan Strasser for caring enough about the things that come before and after the mass market. Most of all, thanks to Samantha Feldman and Carol Bass for taking us on a tour of their favorite places.

for letting us into their natural habitat and allowing us to become the anthropologists we always wanted to be.

for letting us into their natural habitat and allowing us to become the anthropologists we always wanted to be.

Our behaviors and values are shaped by its gnarly vines.

Our behaviors and values are shaped by its gnarly vines.

I want to know more. Like, who planted this seed? And can we plant something else in its place? Welcome to Deadheads. Welcome. Deadheads is an investigation into the American economy. From the perspective of people in debt. Like us. Like everybody. I'm Jamie. And I'm Rachel. And we named this podcast after ourselves.

I want to know more. Like, who planted this seed? And can we plant something else in its place? Welcome to Deadheads. Welcome. Deadheads is an investigation into the American economy. From the perspective of people in debt. Like us. Like everybody. I'm Jamie. And I'm Rachel. And we named this podcast after ourselves.

And we learned that our overlords are quite dull.

And we learned that our overlords are quite dull.

To live in denial over debt.

To live in denial over debt.

But most importantly, to start questioning why and how. America became a country full of deadheads. Shopping isn't the only reason I got into debt. It's not even the main reason. But to break out of these cycles of living beyond my means, I had to reevaluate my relationship with everything. Money, codependency, addiction, and, well, consumerism. Something that had been ingrained in me since birth.

But most importantly, to start questioning why and how. America became a country full of deadheads. Shopping isn't the only reason I got into debt. It's not even the main reason. But to break out of these cycles of living beyond my means, I had to reevaluate my relationship with everything. Money, codependency, addiction, and, well, consumerism. Something that had been ingrained in me since birth.

And in order to see what shopping was doing to me, I had to stop doing it. So I did. I challenged myself to stop buying anything but the bare necessities for a whole month. Up to this point in my life, I unwittingly associated my happiness with getting treats, whether they be meals, trips, or things.

And in order to see what shopping was doing to me, I had to stop doing it. So I did. I challenged myself to stop buying anything but the bare necessities for a whole month. Up to this point in my life, I unwittingly associated my happiness with getting treats, whether they be meals, trips, or things.

When I was sad, I'd seek out gadgets and gizmos aplenty, who's its and what's its galore, which is why I sort of expected this month of minimalism to be miserable. For example, here's my only half-joking reaction when Rachel told me we'd need to scale down my food budget. You're going to have to start eating peanut butter sandwiches.

When I was sad, I'd seek out gadgets and gizmos aplenty, who's its and what's its galore, which is why I sort of expected this month of minimalism to be miserable. For example, here's my only half-joking reaction when Rachel told me we'd need to scale down my food budget. You're going to have to start eating peanut butter sandwiches.

This week, we'll take a few trips down Memory Lane, up the Garden State Parkway, and across Queens Boulevard to visit not the closest, but the very best TJ Maxx. Growing up in my family, there were two seasons, pool season and mall season. Every Saturday during mall season, aka winter, we'd sit in traffic... trek over multiple bridges from Queens just to go to the mall in New Jersey.

This week, we'll take a few trips down Memory Lane, up the Garden State Parkway, and across Queens Boulevard to visit not the closest, but the very best TJ Maxx. Growing up in my family, there were two seasons, pool season and mall season. Every Saturday during mall season, aka winter, we'd sit in traffic... trek over multiple bridges from Queens just to go to the mall in New Jersey.

They're really good. What sort of avocado-toast-loving millennial monster had I become? I love peanut butter. It's cheap and filling. And it's the perfect meal to take on my new life of free activities. Like long walks. and bike rides and trips to the library. And you know, peanut butter and jelly sandwiches actually get better when they're smashed in your tote bag full of library books.

They're really good. What sort of avocado-toast-loving millennial monster had I become? I love peanut butter. It's cheap and filling. And it's the perfect meal to take on my new life of free activities. Like long walks. and bike rides and trips to the library. And you know, peanut butter and jelly sandwiches actually get better when they're smashed in your tote bag full of library books.

We definitely couldn't give up celebrating life with a couple of cold glasses of wine.

We definitely couldn't give up celebrating life with a couple of cold glasses of wine.

But I found comfort in the fact that box wine had become much more sophisticated than the yellowtail jugs that lined the counters of my sorority house. Is it filled to the top? It also lasted us through long, leisurely dinner parties that we were throwing at home. And in public parks that exist everywhere.

But I found comfort in the fact that box wine had become much more sophisticated than the yellowtail jugs that lined the counters of my sorority house. Is it filled to the top? It also lasted us through long, leisurely dinner parties that we were throwing at home. And in public parks that exist everywhere.

Okay, so I didn't invent the concept of enjoying a simple life, but it did feel revelatory to me. Especially the part where I was not miserable. At all. I was happy. Happier than I had been in years. So I kept going. And as the months went by, I felt capable of looking at consumerism more critically. Like the anthropologist I might have become had I not spent every weekend at the mall.

Okay, so I didn't invent the concept of enjoying a simple life, but it did feel revelatory to me. Especially the part where I was not miserable. At all. I was happy. Happier than I had been in years. So I kept going. And as the months went by, I felt capable of looking at consumerism more critically. Like the anthropologist I might have become had I not spent every weekend at the mall.

I had questions.

I had questions.

And since I wasn't shopping myself, I'd have to find another willing subject to study. Someone who loved me enough to let me document every single step they took.

And since I wasn't shopping myself, I'd have to find another willing subject to study. Someone who loved me enough to let me document every single step they took.

When we first reached out to my mom about going with her and her best friend Carol on a trip to TJ Maxx, she wasn't sure when we'd be able to make it happen. After all, they only go to the store once a week.

When we first reached out to my mom about going with her and her best friend Carol on a trip to TJ Maxx, she wasn't sure when we'd be able to make it happen. After all, they only go to the store once a week.

Heaven, I'm in heaven. To my mother, heaven is at TJ Maxx on Long Island. And apparently to a lot of other women, too. I can't believe how busy this place is.

Heaven, I'm in heaven. To my mother, heaven is at TJ Maxx on Long Island. And apparently to a lot of other women, too. I can't believe how busy this place is.

Wow, we were becoming anthropologists already. Oh, it's calling my name. So wagon time. First thing you do is get a wagon.

Wow, we were becoming anthropologists already. Oh, it's calling my name. So wagon time. First thing you do is get a wagon.

To her, it was a banquet of bling. It's so nice to look at. A cornucopia of colors. It's appealing. A deluge of decadence. I don't need this and I wouldn't buy it, but I definitely would look at it. An exhibit of extravagance. That's why, because of the color and the packaging. A veritable feast for the financially famished. Six dollars, right? So it's great. She didn't seem especially hungry.

To her, it was a banquet of bling. It's so nice to look at. A cornucopia of colors. It's appealing. A deluge of decadence. I don't need this and I wouldn't buy it, but I definitely would look at it. An exhibit of extravagance. That's why, because of the color and the packaging. A veritable feast for the financially famished. Six dollars, right? So it's great. She didn't seem especially hungry.

I'm just looking at everything. Everything. It's sickness. It's sick.

I'm just looking at everything. Everything. It's sickness. It's sick.

I followed Carol, who immediately explained why. Yeah, she's very slow. Same thing in home goods. Five minutes, I'm done with the store. But she's still an aisle one, you know?

I followed Carol, who immediately explained why. Yeah, she's very slow. Same thing in home goods. Five minutes, I'm done with the store. But she's still an aisle one, you know?

I used to give her a time limit. Every so often, it'd be, okay, we got a half hour here. And in some places, I don't mind waiting if there's a place to sit down. But sometimes it's like, yeah. I can look at every one of these boxes. Like, look at this. I just love to look at the fun stuff and feel it and touch it. And she's not into that. She just likes to get something.

I used to give her a time limit. Every so often, it'd be, okay, we got a half hour here. And in some places, I don't mind waiting if there's a place to sit down. But sometimes it's like, yeah. I can look at every one of these boxes. Like, look at this. I just love to look at the fun stuff and feel it and touch it. And she's not into that. She just likes to get something.

And even though they spend 90% of their shopping trip on different paths, it's still very much a social experience.

And even though they spend 90% of their shopping trip on different paths, it's still very much a social experience.

Sammy, I didn't vet your cart yet. That's another thing. So we put everything. It doesn't mean we're going to buy it. We just put it in the cart and then decide at the end, like, do we really need this? We'll put it in the wagon. We can decide. Okay. That's how we do it. We put it in the wagon and then I decide later.

Sammy, I didn't vet your cart yet. That's another thing. So we put everything. It doesn't mean we're going to buy it. We just put it in the cart and then decide at the end, like, do we really need this? We'll put it in the wagon. We can decide. Okay. That's how we do it. We put it in the wagon and then I decide later.

Do you feel you've picked up tactics from each other over the years of shopping together? I haven't. Because she's just, I think you're either just good at it or you're not good at it. She's just natural. You know? He's just an asshole.

Do you feel you've picked up tactics from each other over the years of shopping together? I haven't. Because she's just, I think you're either just good at it or you're not good at it. She's just natural. You know? He's just an asshole.

When's the last time you were at this mall?

When's the last time you were at this mall?

Well, actually, we were driving from Queens to New Jersey just to spend time with my Nana at the mall.

Well, actually, we were driving from Queens to New Jersey just to spend time with my Nana at the mall.

But it didn't look quite like TJ Maxx just yet.

But it didn't look quite like TJ Maxx just yet.

If my mom had to ask a clerk for everything she wanted, she couldn't spend eight hours in the store.

If my mom had to ask a clerk for everything she wanted, she couldn't spend eight hours in the store.

There was no packaging at all. There were just tersely labeled bins of generic, unbranded necessities.

There was no packaging at all. There were just tersely labeled bins of generic, unbranded necessities.

Yeah, I've never seen it.

Yeah, I've never seen it.

hi deadheads this is jamie and rachel your co-hosts fellow financial failures and semi-qualified sleuths leading this ragtag investigation to figure out why our economy is keeping us down divided and delusional we've had a big week why we broke the top 100 shows on the apple charts oh my god right that thing that happened that i haven't stopped thinking about since it happened

hi deadheads this is jamie and rachel your co-hosts fellow financial failures and semi-qualified sleuths leading this ragtag investigation to figure out why our economy is keeping us down divided and delusional we've had a big week why we broke the top 100 shows on the apple charts oh my god right that thing that happened that i haven't stopped thinking about since it happened

We garnered a very small circle of listeners, mostly our friends and family. And to them, we said, hey, we have this idea.

We garnered a very small circle of listeners, mostly our friends and family. And to them, we said, hey, we have this idea.

The grant money came in with just enough time for us to pick an auspicious goal for our pilot, the Tribeca Film Festival.

The grant money came in with just enough time for us to pick an auspicious goal for our pilot, the Tribeca Film Festival.

I know, it sounds really nice. It's a professional microphone as opposed to this phone that I carry around in my pocket all the time. It is full of crud. We stopped ripping music off the internet and asked our favorite composer to write us an original soundtrack. We found a theme song. We even got a fact checker named Serena. Yeah, thanks Serena.

I know, it sounds really nice. It's a professional microphone as opposed to this phone that I carry around in my pocket all the time. It is full of crud. We stopped ripping music off the internet and asked our favorite composer to write us an original soundtrack. We found a theme song. We even got a fact checker named Serena. Yeah, thanks Serena.

We worked from morning to night, from the beginning of January to the day after Jamie's birthday.

We worked from morning to night, from the beginning of January to the day after Jamie's birthday.

And then we finished.

And then we finished.

You know, it's like the saying goes, it's not the journey that counts, it's the destination. Just kidding. But that's suddenly how we acted.

You know, it's like the saying goes, it's not the journey that counts, it's the destination. Just kidding. But that's suddenly how we acted.

We cannot believe we're getting this project in front of an audience after struggling in relative obscurity for the last 18 months.

We cannot believe we're getting this project in front of an audience after struggling in relative obscurity for the last 18 months.

And then finally, we did hear back. And we did not get in.

And then finally, we did hear back. And we did not get in.

Dear Rachel, thank you for submitting your project for consideration for the 2024 Tribeca Festival. Unfortunately, Deadheads was not selected for this year's program.

Dear Rachel, thank you for submitting your project for consideration for the 2024 Tribeca Festival. Unfortunately, Deadheads was not selected for this year's program.

Jamie's like in therapy right now. Like literally she was in therapy like the minute we got this fucking email and I couldn't get through to her. This news brought up some deeply existential wounds for like the next 15 to 20 minutes. And I'm really trying not to let it get me down.

Jamie's like in therapy right now. Like literally she was in therapy like the minute we got this fucking email and I couldn't get through to her. This news brought up some deeply existential wounds for like the next 15 to 20 minutes. And I'm really trying not to let it get me down.

But I think the hardest thing is that I just feel like I'm never going to fucking be good enough for these fucking institutions. Like I never, I feel like I'm never going to be good enough. Eventually, I snapped out of this pity party, went for a run, and remembered, hey, we got a big grant.

But I think the hardest thing is that I just feel like I'm never going to fucking be good enough for these fucking institutions. Like I never, I feel like I'm never going to be good enough. Eventually, I snapped out of this pity party, went for a run, and remembered, hey, we got a big grant.

Maybe it's become a bit of a cliche at this point, but like most cliches, it's true. We are the cavalry and you are the cavalry. And we're going to make this project come hell or high interest rate.

Maybe it's become a bit of a cliche at this point, but like most cliches, it's true. We are the cavalry and you are the cavalry. And we're going to make this project come hell or high interest rate.

We will also be re-releasing some of our earlier episodes on this feed because, hey, they're fun.

We will also be re-releasing some of our earlier episodes on this feed because, hey, they're fun.

It's really, really nice to hear from people. Making an independently produced podcast about debt, money, shame, and the struggle to survive in late-stage capitalism has been full of high highs and low lows. So to celebrate how far we've come, we thought we'd recap our journey in what is known as a bonus episode.

It's really, really nice to hear from people. Making an independently produced podcast about debt, money, shame, and the struggle to survive in late-stage capitalism has been full of high highs and low lows. So to celebrate how far we've come, we thought we'd recap our journey in what is known as a bonus episode.

And while we're being honest, we should tell you that we're just about out of that sweet grant money.

And while we're being honest, we should tell you that we're just about out of that sweet grant money.

So if you find yourself enjoying this podcast and it's, you know, within your means, we invite you to join us on Patreon and Substack, where we're creating some extra content, experimenting, re-releasing some old stuff and doing some weird stuff about money, mental health, and this pretend thing we call the economy. A lot of stuff. Hopefully making it worth your while.

So if you find yourself enjoying this podcast and it's, you know, within your means, we invite you to join us on Patreon and Substack, where we're creating some extra content, experimenting, re-releasing some old stuff and doing some weird stuff about money, mental health, and this pretend thing we call the economy. A lot of stuff. Hopefully making it worth your while.

Most importantly, stay tuned to this feed to hear more from Season 1 of Deadheads, coming very, very soon.

Most importantly, stay tuned to this feed to hear more from Season 1 of Deadheads, coming very, very soon.

But in the meantime, please enjoy listening to me cry. Bye. Okay, so in the summer of 2023, prompted by the success of Jamie's TikTok fame, we decided to launch a podcast that investigated the American economy from the perspective of people who were not quite making ends meet.

But in the meantime, please enjoy listening to me cry. Bye. Okay, so in the summer of 2023, prompted by the success of Jamie's TikTok fame, we decided to launch a podcast that investigated the American economy from the perspective of people who were not quite making ends meet.

Hi, this is Jamie from Deadheads. This is episode two of this podcast. If you haven't done so already, go listen to part one because things will make more sense that way. Or don't. We're not your parents, but you might enjoy it more. Okay, don't forget a jacket and be careful crossing the street. We love you.

Hi, this is Jamie from Deadheads. This is episode two of this podcast. If you haven't done so already, go listen to part one because things will make more sense that way. Or don't. We're not your parents, but you might enjoy it more. Okay, don't forget a jacket and be careful crossing the street. We love you.

She wanted one in her own name.

She wanted one in her own name.

And if you didn't want to look for a man on the streets, hopefully you had a brother, an uncle, grandpa, even if they made less money than you did.

And if you didn't want to look for a man on the streets, hopefully you had a brother, an uncle, grandpa, even if they made less money than you did.

That is interesting. But okay, what was the thing you wanted to tell me? Well, this is crazy. Okay. Get ready.

That is interesting. But okay, what was the thing you wanted to tell me? Well, this is crazy. Okay. Get ready.

But I did know that the first credit card came out in 1950 and was called the Diners Club card, as is hinted in this extremely subtle commercial.

But I did know that the first credit card came out in 1950 and was called the Diners Club card, as is hinted in this extremely subtle commercial.

It paved the way for what we now consider common practice, revolving credit.

It paved the way for what we now consider common practice, revolving credit.

So as you can probably tell from Donna's personality, she was finally able to get her card after demanding they put her name on it.

So as you can probably tell from Donna's personality, she was finally able to get her card after demanding they put her name on it.

Oh, sorry. Were you saying something? Yes. I was looking at my phone. I just got a proof-of-memo credit card.

Oh, sorry. Were you saying something? Yes. I was looking at my phone. I just got a proof-of-memo credit card.

And it was letters and testimonies from women like Donna that ultimately led to the passing of what became known as the Equal Credit Opportunity Act, which made discrimination in lending illegal starting in 1974.

And it was letters and testimonies from women like Donna that ultimately led to the passing of what became known as the Equal Credit Opportunity Act, which made discrimination in lending illegal starting in 1974.

And that is in part due to the fact that women, minorities, and anyone else who'd been locked out of lending created an opportunity for a great new market.

And that is in part due to the fact that women, minorities, and anyone else who'd been locked out of lending created an opportunity for a great new market.

The answer to these questions starts back in the 70s, just a few years after Donna got her coveted gold Amex and the Equal Credit Opportunity Act was signed into law.

The answer to these questions starts back in the 70s, just a few years after Donna got her coveted gold Amex and the Equal Credit Opportunity Act was signed into law.

So nearly half of Americans have consumer debt in 2025, and just about 40 years ago, they had none? How is that possible?

So nearly half of Americans have consumer debt in 2025, and just about 40 years ago, they had none? How is that possible?

Oh, man.

Oh, man.

That is pretty interesting. Interesting.

That is pretty interesting. Interesting.

Before the Marquette decision, 38% of American households had cards. And within a decade, that number had nearly doubled.

Before the Marquette decision, 38% of American households had cards. And within a decade, that number had nearly doubled.

Welcome to Deadheads. Welcome. Deadheads is an investigation into the American economy. From the perspective of people in debt.

Welcome to Deadheads. Welcome. Deadheads is an investigation into the American economy. From the perspective of people in debt.

And once they had the incentive to make money with these interest rates, they started to figure out other ways to maximize these profits.

And once they had the incentive to make money with these interest rates, they started to figure out other ways to maximize these profits.

Thanks for listening to Deadheads. Next week, in part two of this episode, we'll find out what happened after Flashdance came out.

Thanks for listening to Deadheads. Next week, in part two of this episode, we'll find out what happened after Flashdance came out.

And we named this podcast after ourselves.

And we named this podcast after ourselves.

We'll run late for a meeting with our all-time favorite reporter. I think it'll take us 10 minutes to get there. So we'll be late?

We'll run late for a meeting with our all-time favorite reporter. I think it'll take us 10 minutes to get there. So we'll be late?

This episode was brought to you by the millions of free books at the

This episode was brought to you by the millions of free books at the

Hey, Siri? Uh-huh? Can you tell me how to get out of debt?

Hey, Siri? Uh-huh? Can you tell me how to get out of debt?

Okay, number one. Focus your budget.

Okay, number one. Focus your budget.

And I had been carrying this debt in some capacity for so many years that the principal I originally borrowed had gotten really hard to distinguish from the interest that had accumulated over the years.

And I had been carrying this debt in some capacity for so many years that the principal I originally borrowed had gotten really hard to distinguish from the interest that had accumulated over the years.

This podcast was non-judgmental. Five? Okay. So I had five credit cards and clearly I was using them wrong, but was anyone using them right? I had to find out. I had to go somewhere where people might be using credit cards. Someplace familiar. Somewhere where everybody knows my name. I had to go to the mall.

This podcast was non-judgmental. Five? Okay. So I had five credit cards and clearly I was using them wrong, but was anyone using them right? I had to find out. I had to go somewhere where people might be using credit cards. Someplace familiar. Somewhere where everybody knows my name. I had to go to the mall.

On a recent Saturday afternoon, we lured one of our city's top investigative reporters slash restaurant critics, Rachel Sun River, to a busy suburban mall in the tri-state area to investigate how people were spending their money. And all it cost us was a fried chicken sandwich from the food court.

On a recent Saturday afternoon, we lured one of our city's top investigative reporters slash restaurant critics, Rachel Sun River, to a busy suburban mall in the tri-state area to investigate how people were spending their money. And all it cost us was a fried chicken sandwich from the food court.

And despite the subpar quality of the food court's fried chicken sandwich, it was well worth the cost to hear Rivers' keen interviewing skills in action.

And despite the subpar quality of the food court's fried chicken sandwich, it was well worth the cost to hear Rivers' keen interviewing skills in action.

Confirm the legality of recording audio at a shopping mall.

Confirm the legality of recording audio at a shopping mall.

And according to the security guard, we were decidedly not allowed.

And according to the security guard, we were decidedly not allowed.

So? We told them we would stop.

So? We told them we would stop.

Okay, we didn't stop exactly. We managed to find some people to talk to in the legally gray area, better known as the vestibule between the parking lot and the mall entrance.

Okay, we didn't stop exactly. We managed to find some people to talk to in the legally gray area, better known as the vestibule between the parking lot and the mall entrance.

Even when they're not fully sure if they have a credit card or not. Do you have a credit card?

Even when they're not fully sure if they have a credit card or not. Do you have a credit card?

We learned two very important facts on this trip to the mall.

We learned two very important facts on this trip to the mall.

Yeah, having a credit card is so adult. It's basically the NC-17 rated movie showgirls.

Yeah, having a credit card is so adult. It's basically the NC-17 rated movie showgirls.

And working hard for the money is so adult.

And working hard for the money is so adult.

Smoking a motherfucking cigarette.

Smoking a motherfucking cigarette.

The credit card looks at you with your dwindling cash flow and says, here, go ahead, try me on.

The credit card looks at you with your dwindling cash flow and says, here, go ahead, try me on.

This Chase Sapphire card is really doing it for me. Like getting you perks at nearly every corporate venue? Want to get a $20 beer at Madison Square Garden for $16?

This Chase Sapphire card is really doing it for me. Like getting you perks at nearly every corporate venue? Want to get a $20 beer at Madison Square Garden for $16?

I dreamed of using a credit card when I was a kid. A fantasy that was realized when I played the game Mall Madness.

I dreamed of using a credit card when I was a kid. A fantasy that was realized when I played the game Mall Madness.

Which came with its own line of store-branded credit cards.

Which came with its own line of store-branded credit cards.

But as it turns out, my fantasy of swiping those fake cards as a child didn't exactly square with the reality of when I actually got my first credit card.

But as it turns out, my fantasy of swiping those fake cards as a child didn't exactly square with the reality of when I actually got my first credit card.

Okay, so I failed a class in college and I wanted to retake it, but I didn't want to tell anybody that I was retaking it because I was too embarrassed. So I decided I was going to try to pay for it myself. And so I went to The Gap.

Okay, so I failed a class in college and I wanted to retake it, but I didn't want to tell anybody that I was retaking it because I was too embarrassed. So I decided I was going to try to pay for it myself. And so I went to The Gap.

Well, I was at the Gap. You were already at the Gap. I was already at the Gap. And when I was there, I noticed that they had credit cards there. Oh, no. And I was like, oh, my God, this is genius. I'll get a Gap credit card. And I'll pay for my class on this Gap credit card. And nobody will ever know.

Well, I was at the Gap. You were already at the Gap. I was already at the Gap. And when I was there, I noticed that they had credit cards there. Oh, no. And I was like, oh, my God, this is genius. I'll get a Gap credit card. And I'll pay for my class on this Gap credit card. And nobody will ever know.

Well, I did. And so I did. Yeah. The visual of sitting in my bed in my shitty East Village apartment in like a hungover anxiety shame spiral, paying like $35 minimum payment on my balance, was very much not sexy. It made me feel pretty much like anything besides a sexy adult.

Well, I did. And so I did. Yeah. The visual of sitting in my bed in my shitty East Village apartment in like a hungover anxiety shame spiral, paying like $35 minimum payment on my balance, was very much not sexy. It made me feel pretty much like anything besides a sexy adult.

Credit cards were not always as ubiquitous as mob madness fans like me would assume.

Credit cards were not always as ubiquitous as mob madness fans like me would assume.

I do. That's the year that the movie Flashdance came out and launched a generation of leg warmer enthusiasts.

I do. That's the year that the movie Flashdance came out and launched a generation of leg warmer enthusiasts.

That sounded so crazy to us because it was so recent.

That sounded so crazy to us because it was so recent.

We needed to know what it was like to live in a time when the act of women burning bras in protest was documented in the daily newspapers. But the concept of a woman using her own credit card to buy a new bra was not.

We needed to know what it was like to live in a time when the act of women burning bras in protest was documented in the daily newspapers. But the concept of a woman using her own credit card to buy a new bra was not.

Thank you so much for taking this time. I really appreciate it.

Thank you so much for taking this time. I really appreciate it.

In addition to being one of the silliest strangers we've ever met on Zoom, Donna is a former radio DJ, professor of media studies at Emerson University, and music lover, who was credited during her stint as a DJ in Cleveland for launching the career of the 70s-era Canadian rock band... Rush.

In addition to being one of the silliest strangers we've ever met on Zoom, Donna is a former radio DJ, professor of media studies at Emerson University, and music lover, who was credited during her stint as a DJ in Cleveland for launching the career of the 70s-era Canadian rock band... Rush.

I don't know them.

I don't know them.

And just like Rashida Jones in the 2009 movie I Love You Man, we also didn't know anything about Rush until Paul Rudd provided us with some iTunes action.

And just like Rashida Jones in the 2009 movie I Love You Man, we also didn't know anything about Rush until Paul Rudd provided us with some iTunes action.

Oh, okay. Well, if it's not that, then it's also the year that Donna Summer was inspired by a female bathroom attendant to write the hit song, She Works Hard for the Money.

Oh, okay. Well, if it's not that, then it's also the year that Donna Summer was inspired by a female bathroom attendant to write the hit song, She Works Hard for the Money.

And every steelworker and dancer were picking up the tracks Donna was laying down on the radio.

And every steelworker and dancer were picking up the tracks Donna was laying down on the radio.

I mean, I still have my silly gold card, okay? When Donna got her first American Express gold card...

I mean, I still have my silly gold card, okay? When Donna got her first American Express gold card...

Women did not generally get approved for credit cards. See if I can find it and grab it. And if they did, they were associated with their husband's card. Here we go. But Donna didn't want a card in her husband's name.

Women did not generally get approved for credit cards. See if I can find it and grab it. And if they did, they were associated with their husband's card. Here we go. But Donna didn't want a card in her husband's name.

This episode of Deadheads contains colorful language. If you have kids in the room, you might want to turn the volume up. Okay, let the fun begin. Okay, so... Restaurants? Alcohol? Health insurance? Holy shit! Oh my god. This number is giving me a lot of anxiety.

This episode of Deadheads contains colorful language. If you have kids in the room, you might want to turn the volume up. Okay, let the fun begin. Okay, so... Restaurants? Alcohol? Health insurance? Holy shit! Oh my god. This number is giving me a lot of anxiety.

If you could describe our money situation, our financial situation when I was growing up in one word, how would you describe it? Stressful.

If you could describe our money situation, our financial situation when I was growing up in one word, how would you describe it? Stressful.

My mom was 23 when she moved in with my dad and 28 when she had me. She rushed into adulthood to get away from her own family. She made a lot of emotional decisions that had financial implications for both her life and mine.

My mom was 23 when she moved in with my dad and 28 when she had me. She rushed into adulthood to get away from her own family. She made a lot of emotional decisions that had financial implications for both her life and mine.

Yeah, like I don't have really good memories from this apartment. What do you remember about this apartment? I have memories of a lot of fighting, a lot of conflict for a lot of different reasons. But I feel like often they had to do with money and bills. Yeah. There was a lot of fighting in my house growing up, and to my six-year-old ears, it always sounded like it was about money.

Yeah, like I don't have really good memories from this apartment. What do you remember about this apartment? I have memories of a lot of fighting, a lot of conflict for a lot of different reasons. But I feel like often they had to do with money and bills. Yeah. There was a lot of fighting in my house growing up, and to my six-year-old ears, it always sounded like it was about money.

What I did and did not want to tell Rachel that day was that I had $14,000 of credit card debt. And that I'd been maintaining that level of debt in secret for years. $14,000 worth of free-floating anxiety. $14,000 worth of sleepless nights. $14,000 worth of denial. Denial that was so entrenched, it kept me from opening my credit card statements or making anything but the minimum auto payments.

What I did and did not want to tell Rachel that day was that I had $14,000 of credit card debt. And that I'd been maintaining that level of debt in secret for years. $14,000 worth of free-floating anxiety. $14,000 worth of sleepless nights. $14,000 worth of denial. Denial that was so entrenched, it kept me from opening my credit card statements or making anything but the minimum auto payments.

But as I got a little older, I realized that the money part was just one piece of a much larger issue. My dad struggled with addiction. He wasn't always able to hold a job. Most of the time, it was chaos. Sometimes I didn't know what I was going to find on the other side of the door. And I often fell asleep to the sounds of my mom screaming about something that I couldn't understand.

But as I got a little older, I realized that the money part was just one piece of a much larger issue. My dad struggled with addiction. He wasn't always able to hold a job. Most of the time, it was chaos. Sometimes I didn't know what I was going to find on the other side of the door. And I often fell asleep to the sounds of my mom screaming about something that I couldn't understand.

All I knew was that she was angry. And I hated that about her.

All I knew was that she was angry. And I hated that about her.

Okay. On restaurants, I spent $516. Clothing, I spent $649.29 because I bought those two bathing suits. I bought those two bathing suits. Two bathing suits that were each $300? Yes. Yes. Baby suits are really difficult to find, and I found one that I felt really good in, and I bought two, one black one and one navy one.

Okay. On restaurants, I spent $516. Clothing, I spent $649.29 because I bought those two bathing suits. I bought those two bathing suits. Two bathing suits that were each $300? Yes. Yes. Baby suits are really difficult to find, and I found one that I felt really good in, and I bought two, one black one and one navy one.

No.

No.

I've returned one. For over 10 years, I was engaged in a particularly modern form of cognitive dissonance. I was spending wildly without intention as to what I was buying or why. I simply could not wrap my mind around the fact that there might be another way to exist. Most experts will tell you that the first step to getting your finances under control is to make a budget. And they're not wrong.

I've returned one. For over 10 years, I was engaged in a particularly modern form of cognitive dissonance. I was spending wildly without intention as to what I was buying or why. I simply could not wrap my mind around the fact that there might be another way to exist. Most experts will tell you that the first step to getting your finances under control is to make a budget. And they're not wrong.

It works. The math is easy, and it's a really helpful tool. But I wasn't able to budget until my friend literally sat me down in a chair for several hours and held my hand while I did it, because those numbers were really fucking painful to look at.

It works. The math is easy, and it's a really helpful tool. But I wasn't able to budget until my friend literally sat me down in a chair for several hours and held my hand while I did it, because those numbers were really fucking painful to look at.

What Rachel made me realize is that I'd been operating out of a place of obligation. I was putting everyone else's needs before my own. Once I started aligning my money with my values more closely, budgeting felt not only possible, but maybe even kind of fun and exciting. I felt like I'd cracked the code, and now obviously I needed to tell everyone else.

What Rachel made me realize is that I'd been operating out of a place of obligation. I was putting everyone else's needs before my own. Once I started aligning my money with my values more closely, budgeting felt not only possible, but maybe even kind of fun and exciting. I felt like I'd cracked the code, and now obviously I needed to tell everyone else.

I'm Jamie, I live in Brooklyn, and I'm working to tackle $18,000 of credit card debt. I drove my friends to the airport, so I've been up since six. Over the years, I had cultivated a modest following from my work as a journalist, covering things like fashion, beauty, and lifestyle, all things I coincidentally spent way too much money on.

I'm Jamie, I live in Brooklyn, and I'm working to tackle $18,000 of credit card debt. I drove my friends to the airport, so I've been up since six. Over the years, I had cultivated a modest following from my work as a journalist, covering things like fashion, beauty, and lifestyle, all things I coincidentally spent way too much money on.

So that didn't really feel like the right audience to talk to about having no money. I'll talk to you guys briefly about debt management plans versus paying off a credit card. Joining TikTok felt like the Wild West. where no one knew anything about me or anything I'd ever done before. What is this place? I don't see anybody I know.

So that didn't really feel like the right audience to talk to about having no money. I'll talk to you guys briefly about debt management plans versus paying off a credit card. Joining TikTok felt like the Wild West. where no one knew anything about me or anything I'd ever done before. What is this place? I don't see anybody I know.

Just one tumbleweed and the sounds of crop top teens dancing in the glow of their ring lights behind the saloon door. This would be the perfect place to start a video journal chronicling my journey out of debt. Who in their right mind would watch a 30-something-year-old drone on about credit cards? So I hit publish and sent my very first message into the void. But wait, it's not a void.

Just one tumbleweed and the sounds of crop top teens dancing in the glow of their ring lights behind the saloon door. This would be the perfect place to start a video journal chronicling my journey out of debt. Who in their right mind would watch a 30-something-year-old drone on about credit cards? So I hit publish and sent my very first message into the void. But wait, it's not a void.

It's a 21st century social media platform with over a billion users. And even though I'd come across plenty of trolls in my time on the internet, once I started talking about money, they suddenly had a lot more to say. Should we read some of these? Ah, we'll get someone else to read them.

It's a 21st century social media platform with over a billion users. And even though I'd come across plenty of trolls in my time on the internet, once I started talking about money, they suddenly had a lot more to say. Should we read some of these? Ah, we'll get someone else to read them.

It was so deep that it was actually more than $14,000. After talking with Rachel that day, I opened all my accounts and realized the debt was more like $18,000. The denial was so bad that I didn't even realize how much debt I had.

It was so deep that it was actually more than $14,000. After talking with Rachel that day, I opened all my accounts and realized the debt was more like $18,000. The denial was so bad that I didn't even realize how much debt I had.

So here I am, stepping into my truth, bearing my insecurities, facing my past. I'm just beginning my unlearning of how I was taught and not taught about the concept of money and debt and choices and responsibility. And as I take a step toward healing the problem, this is the messaging I get. Shame on you. Actually, it was even more unhinged than that.

So here I am, stepping into my truth, bearing my insecurities, facing my past. I'm just beginning my unlearning of how I was taught and not taught about the concept of money and debt and choices and responsibility. And as I take a step toward healing the problem, this is the messaging I get. Shame on you. Actually, it was even more unhinged than that.

People are angry with people like me.

People are angry with people like me.

And they want me to know it.

And they want me to know it.

Thanks, Dottie. I came here to connect, but these voices reminded me that our culture understands financial failure as moral failure, that so much of the language around financial advice is infused with puritanical philosophies and methods. I started to hear the language everywhere, like this sentiment from personal finance columnist Michelle Singletary.

Thanks, Dottie. I came here to connect, but these voices reminded me that our culture understands financial failure as moral failure, that so much of the language around financial advice is infused with puritanical philosophies and methods. I started to hear the language everywhere, like this sentiment from personal finance columnist Michelle Singletary.

After sharing a handful of tips and tricks for getting out of debt, she said something I've struggled to forget. That I should be suffering.

After sharing a handful of tips and tricks for getting out of debt, she said something I've struggled to forget. That I should be suffering.

I remember hearing that and thinking, don't they realize that suffering is what got me here in the first place?

I remember hearing that and thinking, don't they realize that suffering is what got me here in the first place?

I didn't tell anyone anything about my debt for over a decade because I was so deeply ashamed and convinced that I was the only one. I not only believed that I alone had failed, I believed that this failure made me a bad person. I remember the day I told you about my debt, I was terrified that when you found out you were going to think differently of me.

I didn't tell anyone anything about my debt for over a decade because I was so deeply ashamed and convinced that I was the only one. I not only believed that I alone had failed, I believed that this failure made me a bad person. I remember the day I told you about my debt, I was terrified that when you found out you were going to think differently of me.

Like, that you were going to realize that I'd been lying to you about something terrible this whole time.

Like, that you were going to realize that I'd been lying to you about something terrible this whole time.

Yeah, which is really the worst part of it all.

Yeah, which is really the worst part of it all.

Okay, sure, I shouldn't have been dropping $100 at group dinners or trying to keep up with all the latest fashion trends. Those were choices. But I didn't choose to attend $100 group dinners because I'm obsessed with overpaying for mediocre food. I went to social events and bought clothes to fit in because it's culturally expected to stay part of the group.

Okay, sure, I shouldn't have been dropping $100 at group dinners or trying to keep up with all the latest fashion trends. Those were choices. But I didn't choose to attend $100 group dinners because I'm obsessed with overpaying for mediocre food. I went to social events and bought clothes to fit in because it's culturally expected to stay part of the group.

I was silent for so many years in an attempt to separate myself from my problems, but that wasn't helping. What I needed was more connection, a different kind of connection, to be part of the group in a meaningful way.

I was silent for so many years in an attempt to separate myself from my problems, but that wasn't helping. What I needed was more connection, a different kind of connection, to be part of the group in a meaningful way.

I know there's a lot of shit everywhere, but... Did you ever feel like there were bad memories here?

I know there's a lot of shit everywhere, but... Did you ever feel like there were bad memories here?

When I was 11 years old, my father lost his battle with addiction in this apartment. And it was such a chaotic time that I never worked through all the ways I felt betrayed. Perhaps the hardest part to grapple with was understanding that in many ways, my mom felt relief when he died. That him dying was going to make her life easier.

When I was 11 years old, my father lost his battle with addiction in this apartment. And it was such a chaotic time that I never worked through all the ways I felt betrayed. Perhaps the hardest part to grapple with was understanding that in many ways, my mom felt relief when he died. That him dying was going to make her life easier.

All these years later, my mom has turned this apartment into her favorite place in the world. But for me, it's the place where I had the worst day of my life. And it's always felt impossible for me to reconcile how those two things can be true at once. But that wasn't the whole story.

All these years later, my mom has turned this apartment into her favorite place in the world. But for me, it's the place where I had the worst day of my life. And it's always felt impossible for me to reconcile how those two things can be true at once. But that wasn't the whole story.

I want to know if anyone else is feeling extremely anxious like me.

I want to know if anyone else is feeling extremely anxious like me.

For so many years, I blamed my mom's anger on everything that happened. But she was angry because she couldn't pay the bills. She couldn't leave a child alone in the house. She couldn't get a job and leave me, so she couldn't pay for a family on her own. She didn't have anywhere to go. This was an economic problem as much as it was anything else.

For so many years, I blamed my mom's anger on everything that happened. But she was angry because she couldn't pay the bills. She couldn't leave a child alone in the house. She couldn't get a job and leave me, so she couldn't pay for a family on her own. She didn't have anywhere to go. This was an economic problem as much as it was anything else.

And it's the story of so many people in America, especially women, especially mothers. our freedoms are dictated by our economic stability. And my mom, like so many other moms, had to learn these lessons the hard way, but managed to keep our world spinning by building healthy communities.

And it's the story of so many people in America, especially women, especially mothers. our freedoms are dictated by our economic stability. And my mom, like so many other moms, had to learn these lessons the hard way, but managed to keep our world spinning by building healthy communities.

Over the years, she's cultivated a chosen family of women who have been there for each other in all kinds of ways, whether it's one of their Friday night cocktail parties or banding together in times of crisis. Like in the days following my dad's death, when a constant stream of people were coming in and out of our house to pay their respects.

Over the years, she's cultivated a chosen family of women who have been there for each other in all kinds of ways, whether it's one of their Friday night cocktail parties or banding together in times of crisis. Like in the days following my dad's death, when a constant stream of people were coming in and out of our house to pay their respects.

My mom sees her apartment as the place where she grew into the person and mother she wanted to be. And that person learned that financial freedom is not about doing everything on your own. It's about connecting and leaning on your community.

My mom sees her apartment as the place where she grew into the person and mother she wanted to be. And that person learned that financial freedom is not about doing everything on your own. It's about connecting and leaning on your community.

Right? So maybe my mom didn't pass along the most practical financial wisdom. I didn't learn about credit cards or 401ks. But why do we consider that to be the only valuable financial advice based on one set of financial values? And is that advice even working?

Right? So maybe my mom didn't pass along the most practical financial wisdom. I didn't learn about credit cards or 401ks. But why do we consider that to be the only valuable financial advice based on one set of financial values? And is that advice even working?

After I sifted through the gaggle of trolls under the TikTok bridge, I found that their voices, while loud and angry, were nothing compared to the many people who saw themselves in what I had to say.

After I sifted through the gaggle of trolls under the TikTok bridge, I found that their voices, while loud and angry, were nothing compared to the many people who saw themselves in what I had to say.

Jamie Feldman was once $20,000 in debt. I have $13,000 of credit card debt currently.

Jamie Feldman was once $20,000 in debt. I have $13,000 of credit card debt currently.

She was really drunk, but still. The message was clear. People do want to talk about debt. They just needed someone to talk about it in a different way than from what we usually hear.

She was really drunk, but still. The message was clear. People do want to talk about debt. They just needed someone to talk about it in a different way than from what we usually hear.

80% of American families carry consumer debt.

80% of American families carry consumer debt.

A quarter of us have student loan debt. Half of us has medical debt. And all of us are more pessimistic than ever about being able to pay it off.

A quarter of us have student loan debt. Half of us has medical debt. And all of us are more pessimistic than ever about being able to pay it off.

But we think we need a new narrative that asks a different question. It's not who is failing at the system, but who is the system failing?

But we think we need a new narrative that asks a different question. It's not who is failing at the system, but who is the system failing?

Thanks for listening to Deadheads. The rest of this five-part season is coming out starting on tax day, so it's probably already in your calendar. How convenient. While you wait, you can find bonus Deadheads subscriber content on our Patreon, get updates on the Deadheads sub stack, follow us on TikTok and Instagram at Deadheads Podcast, and I don't know, come over for dinner on Friday? Yeah.

Thanks for listening to Deadheads. The rest of this five-part season is coming out starting on tax day, so it's probably already in your calendar. How convenient. While you wait, you can find bonus Deadheads subscriber content on our Patreon, get updates on the Deadheads sub stack, follow us on TikTok and Instagram at Deadheads Podcast, and I don't know, come over for dinner on Friday? Yeah.

Seriously.

Seriously.

You know, you just hit a point where the dread rises up so far that it just completely overwhelms you. That and the fact that I had been laid off a few months prior and there was just no way of keeping myself afloat or pretending to be afloat anymore. Now there was suddenly just no money coming in. There was no way to avoid it any longer.

You know, you just hit a point where the dread rises up so far that it just completely overwhelms you. That and the fact that I had been laid off a few months prior and there was just no way of keeping myself afloat or pretending to be afloat anymore. Now there was suddenly just no money coming in. There was no way to avoid it any longer.

We love you. Bye.

We love you. Bye.

And keeping my secret did make me feel safer because it gave me a false sense of control. But I was actually spinning out of control and keeping it all to myself was beginning to make me unsafe. Why am I telling you this? In order for me to be held accountable, I'm going to need you to come with me on this journey. The goal that I've set for myself is getting out of my credit card debt.

And keeping my secret did make me feel safer because it gave me a false sense of control. But I was actually spinning out of control and keeping it all to myself was beginning to make me unsafe. Why am I telling you this? In order for me to be held accountable, I'm going to need you to come with me on this journey. The goal that I've set for myself is getting out of my credit card debt.

And if and when I'm able to do that, I'm going to get a cat.

And if and when I'm able to do that, I'm going to get a cat.

I made $7,892 and I somehow spent $10,869 in one month in June. So how many months do you think you've done that? I don't know. How many months are in 33 years? This is the conversation that changed my life. It's the first time I revealed a deep, dark secret to my best friend. It was a conversation 10 years in the making, and it started like most things start in my life, on a walk.

I made $7,892 and I somehow spent $10,869 in one month in June. So how many months do you think you've done that? I don't know. How many months are in 33 years? This is the conversation that changed my life. It's the first time I revealed a deep, dark secret to my best friend. It was a conversation 10 years in the making, and it started like most things start in my life, on a walk.

And it was then that she could see not only herself, but just how many people had been hiding in the shadows with her. And that's where the story really begins. Welcome to Debt Heads. Welcome. Debt Heads is an investigation into the American economy. From the perspective of people in debt. Like us. Like everybody. I'm Jamie. And I'm Rachel. And we named this podcast after ourselves.

And it was then that she could see not only herself, but just how many people had been hiding in the shadows with her. And that's where the story really begins. Welcome to Debt Heads. Welcome. Debt Heads is an investigation into the American economy. From the perspective of people in debt. Like us. Like everybody. I'm Jamie. And I'm Rachel. And we named this podcast after ourselves.

To live in denial over debt.

To live in denial over debt.

But most importantly, to start questioning why and how.

But most importantly, to start questioning why and how.

Unbelievable. When I started to seek out personal finance guidance, this was the first voice I heard. Dave Ramsey, one of the most recognizable and best-selling authors in the space.

Unbelievable. When I started to seek out personal finance guidance, this was the first voice I heard. Dave Ramsey, one of the most recognizable and best-selling authors in the space.

You little wussy. You go to work. It's a theory that says we are in total control of our successes and failures. And it pays little credence to the environmental, structural, or collective factors at play.

You little wussy. You go to work. It's a theory that says we are in total control of our successes and failures. And it pays little credence to the environmental, structural, or collective factors at play.

And you don't have to look too hard to find other financial influencers who have adopted his style. Stop making excuses. It's your fault that you're broke. And are successfully spouting the same philosophies.

And you don't have to look too hard to find other financial influencers who have adopted his style. Stop making excuses. It's your fault that you're broke. And are successfully spouting the same philosophies.

And it's got a clear solution. Stop being a stupid idiot child person.

And it's got a clear solution. Stop being a stupid idiot child person.

That's a wrap. Forget it. What was I thinking? There's nothing else to say. That was so easy. What should we do now? Let's go get a cocktail.

That's a wrap. Forget it. What was I thinking? There's nothing else to say. That was so easy. What should we do now? Let's go get a cocktail.

They earn less than men, they have more responsibilities in the home than men, and they experience more financial stress than men.

They earn less than men, they have more responsibilities in the home than men, and they experience more financial stress than men.

But now that I'm an adult, I do wish I'd been given a chance to at least sleep through one of these classes.

But now that I'm an adult, I do wish I'd been given a chance to at least sleep through one of these classes.

Because studies show that exposure to this type of education leads to higher credit scores and lower credit card debt.

Because studies show that exposure to this type of education leads to higher credit scores and lower credit card debt.

But unless I Josie Grossie my way into one of those classrooms never been kissed style, this form routine is shit out of luck.

But unless I Josie Grossie my way into one of those classrooms never been kissed style, this form routine is shit out of luck.

As far back as 1922, Emily Post, an American author and socialite, wrote the gold standard for what's right and wrong in American manners.

As far back as 1922, Emily Post, an American author and socialite, wrote the gold standard for what's right and wrong in American manners.

My friend Rachel and I walk all over Brooklyn.

My friend Rachel and I walk all over Brooklyn.

Should I do it with a funny voice?

Should I do it with a funny voice?

Perfect.

Perfect.

And yet the well-bred, white bread and wheat bread loving among us still intensely dislike the mention of money and never speak of it.

And yet the well-bred, white bread and wheat bread loving among us still intensely dislike the mention of money and never speak of it.

Or a grocery store.

Or a grocery store.

And that number is even higher among young people. For millennials, it's 54%. And for Gen Z, it's 64%.

And that number is even higher among young people. For millennials, it's 54%. And for Gen Z, it's 64%.

Hello.

Hello.

My mom is a very colorful person. For starters, she's got bright red hair and has a bag of yarn attached to her hip at all times, which she uses to crochet something brightly colored for just about everyone she meets, including complete strangers. Sam's apartment is as bright and inviting as she is, packed to the ceiling with all the kind of stuff she likes.

My mom is a very colorful person. For starters, she's got bright red hair and has a bag of yarn attached to her hip at all times, which she uses to crochet something brightly colored for just about everyone she meets, including complete strangers. Sam's apartment is as bright and inviting as she is, packed to the ceiling with all the kind of stuff she likes.

This is a path we've walked, I would say, maybe a hundred times before.

This is a path we've walked, I would say, maybe a hundred times before.

So many plants.

So many plants.

You missed this one back here. And I also didn't count these hanging ones.

You missed this one back here. And I also didn't count these hanging ones.

The apartment also has its own soundtrack, mainly consisting of theme songs from Nick at Night. Which ones? Oh, God. It was always either Bewitched or Mary Tyler Moore or...

The apartment also has its own soundtrack, mainly consisting of theme songs from Nick at Night. Which ones? Oh, God. It was always either Bewitched or Mary Tyler Moore or...

Yeah, the love boat. Soon we'll be making another run. Growing up, I talked to my mom about everything. She was the kind of parent who was also a friend. So there was basically nothing off limits. But I had never brought up money with her. Really? Yeah, it was just you and the whole internet. Not her. Hi, I'm Samantha. Hi, I'm Jamie. That's Samantha. I'm Samantha. That's Jamie. Okay.

Yeah, the love boat. Soon we'll be making another run. Growing up, I talked to my mom about everything. She was the kind of parent who was also a friend. So there was basically nothing off limits. But I had never brought up money with her. Really? Yeah, it was just you and the whole internet. Not her. Hi, I'm Samantha. Hi, I'm Jamie. That's Samantha. I'm Samantha. That's Jamie. Okay.

What was your reaction when you saw the first thing that you saw I posted about my money situation? What was your reaction?

What was your reaction when you saw the first thing that you saw I posted about my money situation? What was your reaction?

I was like my mom. We both had a habit of blowing through our money. Although for me, it was less about clothes and more about paying an obscene amount of money to live in a shitty slice of heaven in the East Village. This type of spending often meant that we were living beyond our means. Neither of us ever learned how to be good with money.

I was like my mom. We both had a habit of blowing through our money. Although for me, it was less about clothes and more about paying an obscene amount of money to live in a shitty slice of heaven in the East Village. This type of spending often meant that we were living beyond our means. Neither of us ever learned how to be good with money.

When I think back to my childhood, the only thing I remember knowing about money was that there never seemed to be enough of it. And so you never talked to your mom about money?

When I think back to my childhood, the only thing I remember knowing about money was that there never seemed to be enough of it. And so you never talked to your mom about money?

Did you have any thoughts about my financial education or what my relationship with money might look like?

Did you have any thoughts about my financial education or what my relationship with money might look like?

Hi, this is Jamie and Rachel from Deadheads. We hope you've enjoyed part one of our limited narrative series. We're working hard to bring you the next episode.

Hi, this is Jamie and Rachel from Deadheads. We hope you've enjoyed part one of our limited narrative series. We're working hard to bring you the next episode.

And make sure you're signed up to this feed for the Deadheads podcast, where episode two is scheduled to come out this time next week. See you then.

And make sure you're signed up to this feed for the Deadheads podcast, where episode two is scheduled to come out this time next week. See you then.

This week, it's an interview with Claire Parker and Ashley Hamilton, co-hosts of Celebrity Memoir Book Club, all about making it work in the creator economy. Here's a sneak peek.

This week, it's an interview with Claire Parker and Ashley Hamilton, co-hosts of Celebrity Memoir Book Club, all about making it work in the creator economy. Here's a sneak peek.

I mean, not wrong, not wrong.

I mean, not wrong, not wrong.

In the meantime, we wanted to introduce you to the Deadheads bonus content, which will live exclusively on Patreon and is for anyone who wants to hear a slightly less inquisitive, slightly more practical conversation about money, mental health, and this made up thing we call the economy. We're starting this content with a mini video series that we're calling The Survival Guide to Adulthood.

In the meantime, we wanted to introduce you to the Deadheads bonus content, which will live exclusively on Patreon and is for anyone who wants to hear a slightly less inquisitive, slightly more practical conversation about money, mental health, and this made up thing we call the economy. We're starting this content with a mini video series that we're calling The Survival Guide to Adulthood.

I love that.

I love that.

So if you're down to clown and want to support our work with a subscription, check out the Deadheads Patreon, where you'll find the survival guide to adulthood, plus all the extra stuff that doesn't fit into our main podcast. It's going to be fun, loose, and silly, but also serious. Think of it like a grab bag. Think of it as playing dress up in Barbie's nightmare house. With us. Fun.

So if you're down to clown and want to support our work with a subscription, check out the Deadheads Patreon, where you'll find the survival guide to adulthood, plus all the extra stuff that doesn't fit into our main podcast. It's going to be fun, loose, and silly, but also serious. Think of it like a grab bag. Think of it as playing dress up in Barbie's nightmare house. With us. Fun.

Hi, this is Jamie from Deadheads. This is Episode 2, Part 2. A lot of people loved Episode 2, Part 1, so if you haven't listened, you should do so. You might also love it, and you'll definitely be less confused. Okay, enjoy Episode 2, Part 2 of Deadheads.

Hi, this is Jamie from Deadheads. This is Episode 2, Part 2. A lot of people loved Episode 2, Part 1, so if you haven't listened, you should do so. You might also love it, and you'll definitely be less confused. Okay, enjoy Episode 2, Part 2 of Deadheads.

And that's the way it used to be in America as well. Credit bureaus have existed since the 1800s. But back then, they were only used to determine credit for business loans, not to determine your ability to do things like buy a house.

And that's the way it used to be in America as well. Credit bureaus have existed since the 1800s. But back then, they were only used to determine credit for business loans, not to determine your ability to do things like buy a house.

Whoa, that's the year I was born. So the credit score is just a little baby like me and Taylor Swift?

Whoa, that's the year I was born. So the credit score is just a little baby like me and Taylor Swift?

Oh, OK. So the credit score is meant to standardize lending, like to make it less subjective. So women like Donna and minorities and basically anyone else locked out of the old boys club could get access to lending, too.

Oh, OK. So the credit score is meant to standardize lending, like to make it less subjective. So women like Donna and minorities and basically anyone else locked out of the old boys club could get access to lending, too.

Yes. Financial Institution. Oh, okay. Financial Information.

Yes. Financial Institution. Oh, okay. Financial Information.

Okay, weird.

Okay, weird.

Oh, okay. Brangelina. Bennifer. Yeah.

Oh, okay. Brangelina. Bennifer. Yeah.

It was the Olive Garden of banks. When you're here, you're family.

It was the Olive Garden of banks. When you're here, you're family.

We met John outside on a very windy day at 3.35 p.m. We know it was 3.35 because we were running late.

We met John outside on a very windy day at 3.35 p.m. We know it was 3.35 because we were running late.

The story itself is tragic. A man died and a family was torn apart. But there's a more sinister layer to the story that Ronson shared with us too. And it involves one of those credit bureaus, Experian.

The story itself is tragic. A man died and a family was torn apart. But there's a more sinister layer to the story that Ronson shared with us too. And it involves one of those credit bureaus, Experian.

And John was able to get this information directly from the horse's mouth.

And John was able to get this information directly from the horse's mouth.

John asked how he was categorized, and according to the program, he was what's called a global connector.

John asked how he was categorized, and according to the program, he was what's called a global connector.

On a less flattering end of the spectrum were the welfare borderlines, people who Weber rudely described as having questionable aesthetics.

On a less flattering end of the spectrum were the welfare borderlines, people who Weber rudely described as having questionable aesthetics.

And here's how they described that group.

And here's how they described that group.

And while we're all out here complaining about the price of eggs, the profit margin for grocery stores is only 1.6%. And here's the icing on the grocery store sheet cake.

And while we're all out here complaining about the price of eggs, the profit margin for grocery stores is only 1.6%. And here's the icing on the grocery store sheet cake.

Lenders like to claim that their business is risky. But over time, they've turned their business into more than a sure bet.

Lenders like to claim that their business is risky. But over time, they've turned their business into more than a sure bet.

In the late 90s, when MasterCard debuted the Priceless campaign, they had been suffering as a company. People were concerned about debt, and there was a backlash.

In the late 90s, when MasterCard debuted the Priceless campaign, they had been suffering as a company. People were concerned about debt, and there was a backlash.

There are plenty of things that money can't buy. But this ad makes us question, do we need to buy a $45 autographed baseball to have a real conversation with our 11-year-old son? Certainly suggests that it would be helpful and a lot more fun.

There are plenty of things that money can't buy. But this ad makes us question, do we need to buy a $45 autographed baseball to have a real conversation with our 11-year-old son? Certainly suggests that it would be helpful and a lot more fun.

The MasterCard Priceless campaign, which persists in advertising to this day, featured one instantly recognizable tagline.

The MasterCard Priceless campaign, which persists in advertising to this day, featured one instantly recognizable tagline.

When we're choosing a card, most of us ignore the fees, the interest rates, the long-winded terms and penalties. Instead, we zero in on rewards. Like 0% APR for 18 months. Or triple points for every dollar spent at the gas station. Or best of all, a nylon drawstring backpack emblazoned with JPMorgan Chase. I signed up for a Chase Sapphire card because I heard they were giving out nylon backpacks.

When we're choosing a card, most of us ignore the fees, the interest rates, the long-winded terms and penalties. Instead, we zero in on rewards. Like 0% APR for 18 months. Or triple points for every dollar spent at the gas station. Or best of all, a nylon drawstring backpack emblazoned with JPMorgan Chase. I signed up for a Chase Sapphire card because I heard they were giving out nylon backpacks.

Really? No. I did hear, though, that they were offering people 100,000 points. And I knew a bunch of people getting married at the time, and they were all using those points to upgrade their flights and accommodations for their honeymoons.

Really? No. I did hear, though, that they were offering people 100,000 points. And I knew a bunch of people getting married at the time, and they were all using those points to upgrade their flights and accommodations for their honeymoons.

No.

No.

No, I was a broke journalist. I barely had $4,000 to cover the amount I'd have to spend on the card in the first three months to get the points in the first place. You see where this is going? Yeah.

No, I was a broke journalist. I barely had $4,000 to cover the amount I'd have to spend on the card in the first three months to get the points in the first place. You see where this is going? Yeah.

So many of us are not cashing in on these points, but somebody is. How do the credit cards pay for giving away all this free stuff?

So many of us are not cashing in on these points, but somebody is. How do the credit cards pay for giving away all this free stuff?

No. Interchange fees. Sounds like pieces of shit to me.

No. Interchange fees. Sounds like pieces of shit to me.

Even those of us who don't use credit cards?

Even those of us who don't use credit cards?

Elena calls all of this the debt machine.

Elena calls all of this the debt machine.

And how few of us seemed to know anything at all about the devious ways these companies were working against us at every turn.

And how few of us seemed to know anything at all about the devious ways these companies were working against us at every turn.

But this interview is from 15 years ago, and the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau that established the CARD Act has been under attack ever since. Just this year, Elon Musk tweeted, RIP CFPB.

But this interview is from 15 years ago, and the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau that established the CARD Act has been under attack ever since. Just this year, Elon Musk tweeted, RIP CFPB.

To Elena, the CART Act was like putting a Band-Aid on a bullet wound. But we don't need Band-Aids. We need to stop the shooting in the first place.

To Elena, the CART Act was like putting a Band-Aid on a bullet wound. But we don't need Band-Aids. We need to stop the shooting in the first place.

Sort of like the business model for cigarettes.

Sort of like the business model for cigarettes.

Cigarettes damage your organs. Cigarettes cause cancer. Tobacco smoke harms children. Cigarettes cause impotence. Cigarettes cause leukemia.

Cigarettes damage your organs. Cigarettes cause cancer. Tobacco smoke harms children. Cigarettes cause impotence. Cigarettes cause leukemia.

You cannot escape the foreboding message, which is, this product is designed to hurt you. How do we get those on American cigarettes?

You cannot escape the foreboding message, which is, this product is designed to hurt you. How do we get those on American cigarettes?

After learning everything we did from Elena, we thought about Donna and her beloved American Express. Was this the future that these feminists from the 70s were fighting for?

After learning everything we did from Elena, we thought about Donna and her beloved American Express. Was this the future that these feminists from the 70s were fighting for?

And in 2025, I don't make that much money either. What I do have is lots of access to credit.

And in 2025, I don't make that much money either. What I do have is lots of access to credit.

When we were wrapping up this episode, I got an email from Chase with the subject line, congratulations. I'm calling because I was recently sent an email that my credit limit was extended from $16,500 to $20,600 and I didn't ask for this extension and I don't want it. The customer service agent was kind and helpful and reversed it immediately.

When we were wrapping up this episode, I got an email from Chase with the subject line, congratulations. I'm calling because I was recently sent an email that my credit limit was extended from $16,500 to $20,600 and I didn't ask for this extension and I don't want it. The customer service agent was kind and helpful and reversed it immediately.

Turns out you have to opt out of these increases, which most people probably don't realize. But the call is relatively easy. Okay. Have a lovely day. All right, you too. Thanks.

Turns out you have to opt out of these increases, which most people probably don't realize. But the call is relatively easy. Okay. Have a lovely day. All right, you too. Thanks.

Welcome to Deadheads. Welcome. Deadheads is an investigation into the American economy. From the perspective of people in debt. Like us. Like everybody. I'm Jamie. And I'm Rachel. And we named this podcast after ourselves.

Welcome to Deadheads. Welcome. Deadheads is an investigation into the American economy. From the perspective of people in debt. Like us. Like everybody. I'm Jamie. And I'm Rachel. And we named this podcast after ourselves.

Yeah, and these aren't things you can put much of a price on, but in a system where profit is the goal, the things we love will always be a target for exploitation. So we just have one more question. Hey Siri, where's the nearest cash-only diner? I want to take my friend out to lunch.

Yeah, and these aren't things you can put much of a price on, but in a system where profit is the goal, the things we love will always be a target for exploitation. So we just have one more question. Hey Siri, where's the nearest cash-only diner? I want to take my friend out to lunch.

Duh. Deadheads is written, produced, and edited by us, Jamie Feldman and Rachel Webster. Our theme song is Pay for That Money by The Defibrillators. Original music is composed by Ali Helmwein. Our research assistant is Jeanette Selig. And this episode was mixed by Jeff Seeley. Thanks to our railway systems. Thank you to Sarah Sengner for inspiring us to move to Germany.

Duh. Deadheads is written, produced, and edited by us, Jamie Feldman and Rachel Webster. Our theme song is Pay for That Money by The Defibrillators. Original music is composed by Ali Helmwein. Our research assistant is Jeanette Selig. And this episode was mixed by Jeff Seeley. Thanks to our railway systems. Thank you to Sarah Sengner for inspiring us to move to Germany.

And to Kathleen McDowell for giving us the title of this episode. You can learn more about the debt machine in Elena Botea's book, Delinquent.

And to Kathleen McDowell for giving us the title of this episode. You can learn more about the debt machine in Elena Botea's book, Delinquent.

And thanks again to Donna Halper for sharing her very quotable thoughts with the world.

And thanks again to Donna Halper for sharing her very quotable thoughts with the world.

To live in denial over debt.

To live in denial over debt.

But most importantly, to start questioning why and how. America became a country full of deadheads. The chase card has the most because that's my highest limit. The limit is 16,000 and it's like about to be maxed out. So, and that's a 20.24%. Yeah. So let's,

But most importantly, to start questioning why and how. America became a country full of deadheads. The chase card has the most because that's my highest limit. The limit is 16,000 and it's like about to be maxed out. So, and that's a 20.24%. Yeah. So let's,

Yeah, that would be easier. That would be really amazing. Ah, to go back to a time when we didn't borrow money for literally every single thing. When was that?

Yeah, that would be easier. That would be really amazing. Ah, to go back to a time when we didn't borrow money for literally every single thing. When was that?

Being less of a straight-A student than Rach, I was not on a Zoom lecture with a debtors' rights activist organization. I was out on a date, which is why I answered the phone. Wasn't he wearing, like, pajama pants or something? Basketball shorts. Don't remind me. I'd never used the, like, get out of a date by faking an emergency thing before, but this actually did feel quite urgent. It was urgent.

Being less of a straight-A student than Rach, I was not on a Zoom lecture with a debtors' rights activist organization. I was out on a date, which is why I answered the phone. Wasn't he wearing, like, pajama pants or something? Basketball shorts. Don't remind me. I'd never used the, like, get out of a date by faking an emergency thing before, but this actually did feel quite urgent. It was urgent.

Off the top of my head, no. And I got some great advice from a financial expert. Hey, Siri. Uh-huh? Can you tell me how to get out of debt? This week, we'll speak to not one, but two muckraking journalists, one of whom started as an insider in the credit card industry.

Off the top of my head, no. And I got some great advice from a financial expert. Hey, Siri. Uh-huh? Can you tell me how to get out of debt? This week, we'll speak to not one, but two muckraking journalists, one of whom started as an insider in the credit card industry.

Just get extra mustard.

Just get extra mustard.

And like judgmental New Yorkers, we were shocked to find very few other people on the streets on such a gorgeous day.

And like judgmental New Yorkers, we were shocked to find very few other people on the streets on such a gorgeous day.

She's the kind of practical, level-headed person who has not one, but multiple forms of allergy medicine to offer.

She's the kind of practical, level-headed person who has not one, but multiple forms of allergy medicine to offer.

Elena knows a lot about credit cards and their profits because she spent her early career working for a bank that made so much money with its credit products, it could pay very famous people to deliver its very famous slogan. Like Sam Jackson.

Elena knows a lot about credit cards and their profits because she spent her early career working for a bank that made so much money with its credit products, it could pay very famous people to deliver its very famous slogan. Like Sam Jackson.

Or Jennifer Garner. What's in your wallet? Don't forget Alec Baldwin.

Or Jennifer Garner. What's in your wallet? Don't forget Alec Baldwin.

God, I wonder how much these people got paid for these commercials.

God, I wonder how much these people got paid for these commercials.

But this was her to-go margarita. She was a true believer that lending was the salty rim on the frosty glass of a financially stable life.

But this was her to-go margarita. She was a true believer that lending was the salty rim on the frosty glass of a financially stable life.

The only unmet need in Elena's apartment was a belly rub for the cats.

The only unmet need in Elena's apartment was a belly rub for the cats.

With each passing year, she discovered ever more sinister corporate behavior that, while not illegal, was not exactly the lofty social value that she had assumed.

With each passing year, she discovered ever more sinister corporate behavior that, while not illegal, was not exactly the lofty social value that she had assumed.

But that notion is simplistic at best, and at worst, just plain wrong.

But that notion is simplistic at best, and at worst, just plain wrong.

It's so crazy that we both spent some of our formative years here.

It's so crazy that we both spent some of our formative years here.

So that means the more they raise your limit, the more debt you're likely to have. Oh, right. And you've never even asked for it.

So that means the more they raise your limit, the more debt you're likely to have. Oh, right. And you've never even asked for it.

I was in college. And I was right around the corner in high school. And we were the exact same age, and we were always friends.

I was in college. And I was right around the corner in high school. And we were the exact same age, and we were always friends.

If you can believe it, we were able to track down another person who had some qualms about their time spent working in the credit card industry.

If you can believe it, we were able to track down another person who had some qualms about their time spent working in the credit card industry.

She worked for nearly 20 years for some of the heaviest hitters in the banking world, Visa, JPMorgan Chase, and Citi in the marketing department.

She worked for nearly 20 years for some of the heaviest hitters in the banking world, Visa, JPMorgan Chase, and Citi in the marketing department.

Not to brag, but I was the perfect credit card customer. I carried my balance diligently for 10 years, only ever making the minimum payments.

Not to brag, but I was the perfect credit card customer. I carried my balance diligently for 10 years, only ever making the minimum payments.

Elena says that most people get charged late fees when they pay their bill mere hours after it's due.

Elena says that most people get charged late fees when they pay their bill mere hours after it's due.

Everyone we spoke to echoed the sentiment.

Everyone we spoke to echoed the sentiment.

Just building credit. If Americans know one thing about credit, it's that we need to have a good credit score.

Just building credit. If Americans know one thing about credit, it's that we need to have a good credit score.

We need one to get an apartment, a phone plan, a mortgage, a business loan, utilities, a second phone plan. And we think that we have to have a credit card to build that good score. But not everyone thinks this way.

We need one to get an apartment, a phone plan, a mortgage, a business loan, utilities, a second phone plan. And we think that we have to have a credit card to build that good score. But not everyone thinks this way.

Sarah's beat is finance, but it was only when she came to America that she had to learn about consumer debt.

Sarah's beat is finance, but it was only when she came to America that she had to learn about consumer debt.

There are 3,200,000 podcasts in the world. So what's one more? Hi, I'm Jamie. And I'm Rachel.

There are 3,200,000 podcasts in the world. So what's one more? Hi, I'm Jamie. And I'm Rachel.

Good question.

Good question.

Maces. We are endeavoring to tell the millennial story by exploring the insidious political and economic policies. Do you know what your interest rate is?

Maces. We are endeavoring to tell the millennial story by exploring the insidious political and economic policies. Do you know what your interest rate is?

And we're in debt. We are in debt. I have a lot of debt.

And we're in debt. We are in debt. I have a lot of debt.

Spend, spend, spend is the marketing agenda. You can shop online. Oh, no, no, no, no, no. Shopping is my cardio. That have defined America over the last four decades.

Spend, spend, spend is the marketing agenda. You can shop online. Oh, no, no, no, no, no. Shopping is my cardio. That have defined America over the last four decades.

In a world that is increasingly difficult to live in.

In a world that is increasingly difficult to live in.

And we want you to be the first to hear it.

And we want you to be the first to hear it.

And I didn't. But both of us have struggled with money over the years because we're deadbeats. Losers. We care more about dancing than making money.

And I didn't. But both of us have struggled with money over the years because we're deadbeats. Losers. We care more about dancing than making money.

I have been struggling with debt for eight years. I have $250,000 of student loan debt. $36,000 of credit card debt. The first season of Debt Heads is a six-episode miniseries that investigates the architecture of personal finance.

I have been struggling with debt for eight years. I have $250,000 of student loan debt. $36,000 of credit card debt. The first season of Debt Heads is a six-episode miniseries that investigates the architecture of personal finance.

You unbelievable little children people. And uncovers the deeper structures that have created an economy that feels unsafe for most people.

You unbelievable little children people. And uncovers the deeper structures that have created an economy that feels unsafe for most people.

Does anybody choose to get old? Does anybody choose to be addicted to opioids? Does anybody choose to be in debt? The answer is no.

Does anybody choose to get old? Does anybody choose to be addicted to opioids? Does anybody choose to be in debt? The answer is no.

We're not sponsored by Helix mattresses.

We're not sponsored by Helix mattresses.

Or Purple mattresses.

Or Purple mattresses.