Menu
Sign In Pricing Add Podcast

Jamie Feldman

Appearances

Debt Heads

S1.E4 - CON-sumerism

0.049

Hi, this is Jamie from Deadheads. This podcast is meant to be listened to in order. So if you would like a better listening experience, make like Julie Andrews and start at the very beginning. It's a very good place to start.

Debt Heads

S1.E4 - CON-sumerism

1003.291

As you can probably guess, they only carry hayseed during the warm weather months. That's right.

Debt Heads

S1.E4 - CON-sumerism

1024.651

No, no. Uh, equal and sweet and low? No, white. Well, what is it then? Oh, white or brown?

Debt Heads

S1.E4 - CON-sumerism

1070.508

They just had one dress? So did Anne even like it?

Debt Heads

S1.E4 - CON-sumerism

111.63

Back when she could walk more easily, her favorite place to walk was here, in the mall. What's the first word I ever read? Macy's. Why do you think that was my first word that I read? Because we were always... In the mall? Always. That's all we did. Why did we come here every week? Because it was an activity.

Debt Heads

S1.E4 - CON-sumerism

1146.122

I love Anne of Green Gables! It's my favorite show!

Debt Heads

S1.E4 - CON-sumerism

1211.655

Before you go, have you heard of ivory?

Debt Heads

S1.E4 - CON-sumerism

1265.998

From Mean Girls to Clueless, popular culture has popularized the idea that modern women love to shop. That we are driven to the mall. In Regina George's convertible. Not with gas power, but with the sheer force of our desire for more and more and more.

Debt Heads

S1.E4 - CON-sumerism

1283.073

You think that's all I do?

Debt Heads

S1.E4 - CON-sumerism

1299.21

And I couldn't help but wonder, is art reflecting life? Or is life reflecting cart? Sure, we love novelty and beauty, but are these modern portrayals of the shopping-obsessed woman deserved? Think about Anne and her beautiful dress. I can't stop thinking about it.

Debt Heads

S1.E4 - CON-sumerism

134.523

Mm-hmm. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Do you think that coming here all the time made me a shopper? I don't know. Dom is nodding.

Debt Heads

S1.E4 - CON-sumerism

1388.484

Yeah, if you just buy one thing and keep it forever, how will the wealth increase?

Debt Heads

S1.E4 - CON-sumerism

1400.791

So, this guy, Paul Mazur, he's a bigwig in investment circles in the 1920s. He wrote six books about business, and he was famous for popularizing one of the most influential economic philosophies of the 20th century.

Debt Heads

S1.E4 - CON-sumerism

1415.296

He said... And I quote, we must shape a new mentality in America. How do you shape a mentality? People must be trained to desire, to want new things, even before the old thing had been entirely consumed. Trained? Like circus animals? Man's desires must overshadow his needs. Wait, isn't that what gets us into credit card debt? Now you're thinking like an anthropologist.

Debt Heads

S1.E4 - CON-sumerism

1437.193

And just five years after Mazur publishes his sinister soliloquy for shameless stockpiling, a real estate magnate named Bernard London would coin the term planned obsolescence.

Debt Heads

S1.E4 - CON-sumerism

1457.221

I know, but actually it's just something that happened out in the open. But it gets even better. Really? Perhaps more effective than planned obsolescence. psychological obsolescence. That's the idea that you can't have the old thing because there's something new, something more fashionable, and therefore better.

Debt Heads

S1.E4 - CON-sumerism

146.513

Like, maybe if you brought me to museums every weekend, I would... Do what? Maybe if you brought me to the museum every weekend... Maybe I became a more... More of an academic. Yeah. Instead, I just like stuff. Okay, maybe I was putting them on the spot. But this mall was the backdrop for my childhood.

Debt Heads

S1.E4 - CON-sumerism

1477.73

Now you're getting it.

Debt Heads

S1.E4 - CON-sumerism

1570.814

I think I saw Rosie the Riveter potholder at TJ Maxx.

Debt Heads

S1.E4 - CON-sumerism

1574.997

Ironically iconic. Rosie the Riveter is the symbol of America's great post-industrial interlude, where women were told to get out of the shops and get working for the greater good. We can do it!

Debt Heads

S1.E4 - CON-sumerism

1625.45

In this colorful ad from Maxwell House Coffee, the same woman who once fastened the steel on warships was now somehow incapable of helping with her own home renovation.

Debt Heads

S1.E4 - CON-sumerism

1657.875

They were no longer portrayed in men's suiting, but suddenly revealed a lot more leg. Heels pumping. Hair shining. Lashes batting.

Debt Heads

S1.E4 - CON-sumerism

166.069

We were three generations of women, only each other to hold onto, searching for a way to spend time together, something that could distract us from our differences. My earliest memories, the good ones anyway, mostly exist under the fluorescent lights of the food court. I remember this one year after eight weeks at summer camp. I was in the woods, communing with nature.

Debt Heads

S1.E4 - CON-sumerism

1695.12

They can't even make a decent cup of coffee. So they just get out of the way, go to the store where they belong and buy instant instead. This is maddening. Oh, hey, is that why they call them madmen?

Debt Heads

S1.E4 - CON-sumerism

1711.919

Exactly us. Prior to the mid-20th century, as far as advertisers were concerned, kids were considered part of the family.

Debt Heads

S1.E4 - CON-sumerism

1795.205

We needed nothing. We wanted nothing. We were there to work. But simply existing inside the store would test our will. So are you tempted to buy things? I just get really overwhelmed by the sheer quantity of items. I know. Somehow, despite being seriously overwhelmed. Those are nice. I might have to have those. I caved immediately. Try it on. Shit. You know who's not trying things on?

Debt Heads

S1.E4 - CON-sumerism

1820.028

Probably Rachel.

Debt Heads

S1.E4 - CON-sumerism

1859.688

After six months of not shopping, I was alarmed to find out how quickly the deeply ingrained instinct to accumulate was unleashed. Now... egged on by my comrade in consumption, Carol, my acquisitions increased so quickly that I stopped even bothering to try things on. How can you pass it by? Look at the price. It's linen. Yeah. This is nice, actually. I can't see a size.

Debt Heads

S1.E4 - CON-sumerism

1881.247

Extra large, but it's good for a cover-up. Want to try it on? No, I think I should just get it. Okay. Maybe I'll get this one, too. I'm good.

Debt Heads

S1.E4 - CON-sumerism

189.729

There were no stores or internet or phone for miles. My mom picked me up and asked what I wanted to do first. Smell the mall, I said. I am not exaggerating. This was home to me.

Debt Heads

S1.E4 - CON-sumerism

1947.155

I think I should buy those markers.

Debt Heads

S1.E4 - CON-sumerism

2043.498

No, I'm not going to do this. Oh, my God. Good for you.

Debt Heads

S1.E4 - CON-sumerism

2055.751

Turns out I'm not the only one who has an I don't love shopping disease. Even those of us who say we love it have a complicated answer when we're forced to actually think about it.

Debt Heads

S1.E4 - CON-sumerism

2153.546

She wrote, "...people are preoccupied with consumer goods not because they are brainwashed, but because buying is the one pleasurable activity not only permitted, but actively encouraged by our rulers."

Debt Heads

S1.E4 - CON-sumerism

2181.089

In a fun twist of messaging, he advised Americans to do exactly the opposite of what they told Rosie to do during World War II.

Debt Heads

S1.E4 - CON-sumerism

2211.496

But if anything is a matter of life or death, it's what happens to those objects when we're done using them, which is a shorter and shorter period of time each year.

Debt Heads

S1.E4 - CON-sumerism

2253.976

Not one of us in this group of four women came to TJ Maxx because we needed something. And three out of the four of us got something that we didn't need and brought it all the way home.

Debt Heads

S1.E4 - CON-sumerism

2271.324

I just, you don't always see things that say Nana. You always see things that say grandma. We need purpose. This is like really nice. Look at that. See, that's a good deal. We need to imagine. You could wear that to a loan party. We could wear it after dinner. We need to enjoy art and beauty. See, I could just spend the entire time in this department. I'm just looking at everything.

Debt Heads

S1.E4 - CON-sumerism

2293.658

We need to spend time together. And I'm proud of you for not getting this because it's not your skin color. And I'm proud of you. Thank you. And all of this is free.

Debt Heads

S1.E4 - CON-sumerism

2312.622

When we walked out of the store into the blinding summer sunshine, we were surrounded by cars. There was pavement and asphalt as far as the eye could see.

Debt Heads

S1.E4 - CON-sumerism

2327.888

Our economy has turned stores into our oases, the most easily accessible and default place to be a human. When I asked my nana, who now dons a very cute $14.99 nana necklace, why we spent so much time in the mall, she said, There's nothing else to do. That's what's entertainment. Right, yeah. But while that might have worked for her, it doesn't work for me. There is more to do.

Debt Heads

S1.E4 - CON-sumerism

2356.884

And when I do those things, I'm sticking it to this system that isn't serving me.

Debt Heads

S1.E4 - CON-sumerism

2384.425

That doesn't want us to know that we were born with everything we need. Each other.

Debt Heads

S1.E4 - CON-sumerism

2421.689

We'll try to stop being material girls, even if we're forced to live in a material world. We'll investigate how our livelihoods are both dependent on and threatened by this toxic consumer cycle. And we'll try not to lose the thread on the cost of thread by learning how to make our own lingerie. And we'll try to square our love of discounts with our love of life by singing the gospel of the earth.

Debt Heads

S1.E4 - CON-sumerism

2454.2

And this episode was mixed by Jeff Seeley. Thanks to every woman who shared her debt and shopping stories with us. Thanks to Susan Strasser for caring enough about the things that come before and after the mass market. Most of all, thanks to Samantha Feldman and Carol Bass for taking us on a tour of their favorite places.

Debt Heads

S1.E4 - CON-sumerism

2468.666

for letting us into their natural habitat and allowing us to become the anthropologists we always wanted to be.

Debt Heads

S1.E4 - CON-sumerism

287.718

Our behaviors and values are shaped by its gnarly vines.

Debt Heads

S1.E4 - CON-sumerism

306.539

I want to know more. Like, who planted this seed? And can we plant something else in its place? Welcome to Deadheads. Welcome. Deadheads is an investigation into the American economy. From the perspective of people in debt. Like us. Like everybody. I'm Jamie. And I'm Rachel. And we named this podcast after ourselves.

Debt Heads

S1.E4 - CON-sumerism

33.239

And we learned that our overlords are quite dull.

Debt Heads

S1.E4 - CON-sumerism

332.478

To live in denial over debt.

Debt Heads

S1.E4 - CON-sumerism

337.42

But most importantly, to start questioning why and how. America became a country full of deadheads. Shopping isn't the only reason I got into debt. It's not even the main reason. But to break out of these cycles of living beyond my means, I had to reevaluate my relationship with everything. Money, codependency, addiction, and, well, consumerism. Something that had been ingrained in me since birth.

Debt Heads

S1.E4 - CON-sumerism

379.936

And in order to see what shopping was doing to me, I had to stop doing it. So I did. I challenged myself to stop buying anything but the bare necessities for a whole month. Up to this point in my life, I unwittingly associated my happiness with getting treats, whether they be meals, trips, or things.

Debt Heads

S1.E4 - CON-sumerism

400.049

When I was sad, I'd seek out gadgets and gizmos aplenty, who's its and what's its galore, which is why I sort of expected this month of minimalism to be miserable. For example, here's my only half-joking reaction when Rachel told me we'd need to scale down my food budget. You're going to have to start eating peanut butter sandwiches.

Debt Heads

S1.E4 - CON-sumerism

41.804

This week, we'll take a few trips down Memory Lane, up the Garden State Parkway, and across Queens Boulevard to visit not the closest, but the very best TJ Maxx. Growing up in my family, there were two seasons, pool season and mall season. Every Saturday during mall season, aka winter, we'd sit in traffic... trek over multiple bridges from Queens just to go to the mall in New Jersey.

Debt Heads

S1.E4 - CON-sumerism

421.477

They're really good. What sort of avocado-toast-loving millennial monster had I become? I love peanut butter. It's cheap and filling. And it's the perfect meal to take on my new life of free activities. Like long walks. and bike rides and trips to the library. And you know, peanut butter and jelly sandwiches actually get better when they're smashed in your tote bag full of library books.

Debt Heads

S1.E4 - CON-sumerism

446.418

We definitely couldn't give up celebrating life with a couple of cold glasses of wine.

Debt Heads

S1.E4 - CON-sumerism

451.645

But I found comfort in the fact that box wine had become much more sophisticated than the yellowtail jugs that lined the counters of my sorority house. Is it filled to the top? It also lasted us through long, leisurely dinner parties that we were throwing at home. And in public parks that exist everywhere.

Debt Heads

S1.E4 - CON-sumerism

468.793

Okay, so I didn't invent the concept of enjoying a simple life, but it did feel revelatory to me. Especially the part where I was not miserable. At all. I was happy. Happier than I had been in years. So I kept going. And as the months went by, I felt capable of looking at consumerism more critically. Like the anthropologist I might have become had I not spent every weekend at the mall.

Debt Heads

S1.E4 - CON-sumerism

494.59

I had questions.

Debt Heads

S1.E4 - CON-sumerism

504.793

And since I wasn't shopping myself, I'd have to find another willing subject to study. Someone who loved me enough to let me document every single step they took.

Debt Heads

S1.E4 - CON-sumerism

521.297

When we first reached out to my mom about going with her and her best friend Carol on a trip to TJ Maxx, she wasn't sure when we'd be able to make it happen. After all, they only go to the store once a week.

Debt Heads

S1.E4 - CON-sumerism

537.465

Heaven, I'm in heaven. To my mother, heaven is at TJ Maxx on Long Island. And apparently to a lot of other women, too. I can't believe how busy this place is.

Debt Heads

S1.E4 - CON-sumerism

563.131

Wow, we were becoming anthropologists already. Oh, it's calling my name. So wagon time. First thing you do is get a wagon.

Debt Heads

S1.E4 - CON-sumerism

606.832

To her, it was a banquet of bling. It's so nice to look at. A cornucopia of colors. It's appealing. A deluge of decadence. I don't need this and I wouldn't buy it, but I definitely would look at it. An exhibit of extravagance. That's why, because of the color and the packaging. A veritable feast for the financially famished. Six dollars, right? So it's great. She didn't seem especially hungry.

Debt Heads

S1.E4 - CON-sumerism

637.956

I'm just looking at everything. Everything. It's sickness. It's sick.

Debt Heads

S1.E4 - CON-sumerism

651.322

I followed Carol, who immediately explained why. Yeah, she's very slow. Same thing in home goods. Five minutes, I'm done with the store. But she's still an aisle one, you know?

Debt Heads

S1.E4 - CON-sumerism

680.65

I used to give her a time limit. Every so often, it'd be, okay, we got a half hour here. And in some places, I don't mind waiting if there's a place to sit down. But sometimes it's like, yeah. I can look at every one of these boxes. Like, look at this. I just love to look at the fun stuff and feel it and touch it. And she's not into that. She just likes to get something.

Debt Heads

S1.E4 - CON-sumerism

703.295

And even though they spend 90% of their shopping trip on different paths, it's still very much a social experience.

Debt Heads

S1.E4 - CON-sumerism

714.446

Sammy, I didn't vet your cart yet. That's another thing. So we put everything. It doesn't mean we're going to buy it. We just put it in the cart and then decide at the end, like, do we really need this? We'll put it in the wagon. We can decide. Okay. That's how we do it. We put it in the wagon and then I decide later.

Debt Heads

S1.E4 - CON-sumerism

730.031

Do you feel you've picked up tactics from each other over the years of shopping together? I haven't. Because she's just, I think you're either just good at it or you're not good at it. She's just natural. You know? He's just an asshole.

Debt Heads

S1.E4 - CON-sumerism

76.21

When's the last time you were at this mall?

Debt Heads

S1.E4 - CON-sumerism

80.796

Well, actually, we were driving from Queens to New Jersey just to spend time with my Nana at the mall.

Debt Heads

S1.E4 - CON-sumerism

889.062

But it didn't look quite like TJ Maxx just yet.

Debt Heads

S1.E4 - CON-sumerism

904.79

If my mom had to ask a clerk for everything she wanted, she couldn't spend eight hours in the store.

Debt Heads

S1.E4 - CON-sumerism

916.435

There was no packaging at all. There were just tersely labeled bins of generic, unbranded necessities.

Debt Heads

S1.E4 - CON-sumerism

929.06

Yeah, I've never seen it.

Debt Heads

BONUS: a peek behind the pod

0.169

hi deadheads this is jamie and rachel your co-hosts fellow financial failures and semi-qualified sleuths leading this ragtag investigation to figure out why our economy is keeping us down divided and delusional we've had a big week why we broke the top 100 shows on the apple charts oh my god right that thing that happened that i haven't stopped thinking about since it happened

Debt Heads

BONUS: a peek behind the pod

132.941

We garnered a very small circle of listeners, mostly our friends and family. And to them, we said, hey, we have this idea.

Debt Heads

BONUS: a peek behind the pod

181.38

The grant money came in with just enough time for us to pick an auspicious goal for our pilot, the Tribeca Film Festival.

Debt Heads

BONUS: a peek behind the pod

202.17

I know, it sounds really nice. It's a professional microphone as opposed to this phone that I carry around in my pocket all the time. It is full of crud. We stopped ripping music off the internet and asked our favorite composer to write us an original soundtrack. We found a theme song. We even got a fact checker named Serena. Yeah, thanks Serena.

Debt Heads

BONUS: a peek behind the pod

219.904

We worked from morning to night, from the beginning of January to the day after Jamie's birthday.

Debt Heads

BONUS: a peek behind the pod

226.609

And then we finished.

Debt Heads

BONUS: a peek behind the pod

237.138

You know, it's like the saying goes, it's not the journey that counts, it's the destination. Just kidding. But that's suddenly how we acted.

Debt Heads

BONUS: a peek behind the pod

24.676

We cannot believe we're getting this project in front of an audience after struggling in relative obscurity for the last 18 months.

Debt Heads

BONUS: a peek behind the pod

253.031

And then finally, we did hear back. And we did not get in.

Debt Heads

BONUS: a peek behind the pod

262.863

Dear Rachel, thank you for submitting your project for consideration for the 2024 Tribeca Festival. Unfortunately, Deadheads was not selected for this year's program.

Debt Heads

BONUS: a peek behind the pod

281.831

Jamie's like in therapy right now. Like literally she was in therapy like the minute we got this fucking email and I couldn't get through to her. This news brought up some deeply existential wounds for like the next 15 to 20 minutes. And I'm really trying not to let it get me down.

Debt Heads

BONUS: a peek behind the pod

294.482

But I think the hardest thing is that I just feel like I'm never going to fucking be good enough for these fucking institutions. Like I never, I feel like I'm never going to be good enough. Eventually, I snapped out of this pity party, went for a run, and remembered, hey, we got a big grant.

Debt Heads

BONUS: a peek behind the pod

344.054

Maybe it's become a bit of a cliche at this point, but like most cliches, it's true. We are the cavalry and you are the cavalry. And we're going to make this project come hell or high interest rate.

Debt Heads

BONUS: a peek behind the pod

370.564

We will also be re-releasing some of our earlier episodes on this feed because, hey, they're fun.

Debt Heads

BONUS: a peek behind the pod

38.949

It's really, really nice to hear from people. Making an independently produced podcast about debt, money, shame, and the struggle to survive in late-stage capitalism has been full of high highs and low lows. So to celebrate how far we've come, we thought we'd recap our journey in what is known as a bonus episode.

Debt Heads

BONUS: a peek behind the pod

380.672

And while we're being honest, we should tell you that we're just about out of that sweet grant money.

Debt Heads

BONUS: a peek behind the pod

384.436

So if you find yourself enjoying this podcast and it's, you know, within your means, we invite you to join us on Patreon and Substack, where we're creating some extra content, experimenting, re-releasing some old stuff and doing some weird stuff about money, mental health, and this pretend thing we call the economy. A lot of stuff. Hopefully making it worth your while.

Debt Heads

BONUS: a peek behind the pod

410.92

Most importantly, stay tuned to this feed to hear more from Season 1 of Deadheads, coming very, very soon.

Debt Heads

BONUS: a peek behind the pod

65.614

But in the meantime, please enjoy listening to me cry. Bye. Okay, so in the summer of 2023, prompted by the success of Jamie's TikTok fame, we decided to launch a podcast that investigated the American economy from the perspective of people who were not quite making ends meet.

Debt Heads

S1.E2 - The House Always Wins (Part One)

0.309

Hi, this is Jamie from Deadheads. This is episode two of this podcast. If you haven't done so already, go listen to part one because things will make more sense that way. Or don't. We're not your parents, but you might enjoy it more. Okay, don't forget a jacket and be careful crossing the street. We love you.

Debt Heads

S1.E2 - The House Always Wins (Part One)

1002.961

She wanted one in her own name.

Debt Heads

S1.E2 - The House Always Wins (Part One)

1056.331

And if you didn't want to look for a man on the streets, hopefully you had a brother, an uncle, grandpa, even if they made less money than you did.

Debt Heads

S1.E2 - The House Always Wins (Part One)

109.69

That is interesting. But okay, what was the thing you wanted to tell me? Well, this is crazy. Okay. Get ready.

Debt Heads

S1.E2 - The House Always Wins (Part One)

1188.675

But I did know that the first credit card came out in 1950 and was called the Diners Club card, as is hinted in this extremely subtle commercial.

Debt Heads

S1.E2 - The House Always Wins (Part One)

1225.013

It paved the way for what we now consider common practice, revolving credit.

Debt Heads

S1.E2 - The House Always Wins (Part One)

1289.669

So as you can probably tell from Donna's personality, she was finally able to get her card after demanding they put her name on it.

Debt Heads

S1.E2 - The House Always Wins (Part One)

130.959

Oh, sorry. Were you saying something? Yes. I was looking at my phone. I just got a proof-of-memo credit card.

Debt Heads

S1.E2 - The House Always Wins (Part One)

1306.999

And it was letters and testimonies from women like Donna that ultimately led to the passing of what became known as the Equal Credit Opportunity Act, which made discrimination in lending illegal starting in 1974.

Debt Heads

S1.E2 - The House Always Wins (Part One)

1323.113

And that is in part due to the fact that women, minorities, and anyone else who'd been locked out of lending created an opportunity for a great new market.

Debt Heads

S1.E2 - The House Always Wins (Part One)

1396.881

The answer to these questions starts back in the 70s, just a few years after Donna got her coveted gold Amex and the Equal Credit Opportunity Act was signed into law.

Debt Heads

S1.E2 - The House Always Wins (Part One)

147.411

So nearly half of Americans have consumer debt in 2025, and just about 40 years ago, they had none? How is that possible?

Debt Heads

S1.E2 - The House Always Wins (Part One)

1564.398

That is pretty interesting. Interesting.

Debt Heads

S1.E2 - The House Always Wins (Part One)

1575.079

Before the Marquette decision, 38% of American households had cards. And within a decade, that number had nearly doubled.

Debt Heads

S1.E2 - The House Always Wins (Part One)

165.376

Welcome to Deadheads. Welcome. Deadheads is an investigation into the American economy. From the perspective of people in debt.

Debt Heads

S1.E2 - The House Always Wins (Part One)

1708.47

And once they had the incentive to make money with these interest rates, they started to figure out other ways to maximize these profits.

Debt Heads

S1.E2 - The House Always Wins (Part One)

1736.778

Thanks for listening to Deadheads. Next week, in part two of this episode, we'll find out what happened after Flashdance came out.

Debt Heads

S1.E2 - The House Always Wins (Part One)

175.26

And we named this podcast after ourselves.

Debt Heads

S1.E2 - The House Always Wins (Part One)

1752.582

We'll run late for a meeting with our all-time favorite reporter. I think it'll take us 10 minutes to get there. So we'll be late?

Debt Heads

S1.E2 - The House Always Wins (Part One)

1773.407

This episode was brought to you by the millions of free books at the

Debt Heads

S1.E2 - The House Always Wins (Part One)

225.205

Hey, Siri? Uh-huh? Can you tell me how to get out of debt?

Debt Heads

S1.E2 - The House Always Wins (Part One)

240.923

Okay, number one. Focus your budget.

Debt Heads

S1.E2 - The House Always Wins (Part One)

323.656

And I had been carrying this debt in some capacity for so many years that the principal I originally borrowed had gotten really hard to distinguish from the interest that had accumulated over the years.

Debt Heads

S1.E2 - The House Always Wins (Part One)

345.72

This podcast was non-judgmental. Five? Okay. So I had five credit cards and clearly I was using them wrong, but was anyone using them right? I had to find out. I had to go somewhere where people might be using credit cards. Someplace familiar. Somewhere where everybody knows my name. I had to go to the mall.

Debt Heads

S1.E2 - The House Always Wins (Part One)

382.328

On a recent Saturday afternoon, we lured one of our city's top investigative reporters slash restaurant critics, Rachel Sun River, to a busy suburban mall in the tri-state area to investigate how people were spending their money. And all it cost us was a fried chicken sandwich from the food court.

Debt Heads

S1.E2 - The House Always Wins (Part One)

423.136

And despite the subpar quality of the food court's fried chicken sandwich, it was well worth the cost to hear Rivers' keen interviewing skills in action.

Debt Heads

S1.E2 - The House Always Wins (Part One)

457.583

Confirm the legality of recording audio at a shopping mall.

Debt Heads

S1.E2 - The House Always Wins (Part One)

463.526

And according to the security guard, we were decidedly not allowed.

Debt Heads

S1.E2 - The House Always Wins (Part One)

471.389

So? We told them we would stop.

Debt Heads

S1.E2 - The House Always Wins (Part One)

476.134

Okay, we didn't stop exactly. We managed to find some people to talk to in the legally gray area, better known as the vestibule between the parking lot and the mall entrance.

Debt Heads

S1.E2 - The House Always Wins (Part One)

492.492

Even when they're not fully sure if they have a credit card or not. Do you have a credit card?

Debt Heads

S1.E2 - The House Always Wins (Part One)

510.067

We learned two very important facts on this trip to the mall.

Debt Heads

S1.E2 - The House Always Wins (Part One)

544.252

Yeah, having a credit card is so adult. It's basically the NC-17 rated movie showgirls.

Debt Heads

S1.E2 - The House Always Wins (Part One)

555.721

And working hard for the money is so adult.

Debt Heads

S1.E2 - The House Always Wins (Part One)

588.547

Smoking a motherfucking cigarette.

Debt Heads

S1.E2 - The House Always Wins (Part One)

597.172

The credit card looks at you with your dwindling cash flow and says, here, go ahead, try me on.

Debt Heads

S1.E2 - The House Always Wins (Part One)

611.161

This Chase Sapphire card is really doing it for me. Like getting you perks at nearly every corporate venue? Want to get a $20 beer at Madison Square Garden for $16?

Debt Heads

S1.E2 - The House Always Wins (Part One)

650.999

I dreamed of using a credit card when I was a kid. A fantasy that was realized when I played the game Mall Madness.

Debt Heads

S1.E2 - The House Always Wins (Part One)

661.868

Which came with its own line of store-branded credit cards.

Debt Heads

S1.E2 - The House Always Wins (Part One)

670.726

But as it turns out, my fantasy of swiping those fake cards as a child didn't exactly square with the reality of when I actually got my first credit card.

Debt Heads

S1.E2 - The House Always Wins (Part One)

682.97

Okay, so I failed a class in college and I wanted to retake it, but I didn't want to tell anybody that I was retaking it because I was too embarrassed. So I decided I was going to try to pay for it myself. And so I went to The Gap.

Debt Heads

S1.E2 - The House Always Wins (Part One)

700.595

Well, I was at the Gap. You were already at the Gap. I was already at the Gap. And when I was there, I noticed that they had credit cards there. Oh, no. And I was like, oh, my God, this is genius. I'll get a Gap credit card. And I'll pay for my class on this Gap credit card. And nobody will ever know.

Debt Heads

S1.E2 - The House Always Wins (Part One)

721.041

Well, I did. And so I did. Yeah. The visual of sitting in my bed in my shitty East Village apartment in like a hungover anxiety shame spiral, paying like $35 minimum payment on my balance, was very much not sexy. It made me feel pretty much like anything besides a sexy adult.

Debt Heads

S1.E2 - The House Always Wins (Part One)

767.624

Credit cards were not always as ubiquitous as mob madness fans like me would assume.

Debt Heads

S1.E2 - The House Always Wins (Part One)

77.608

I do. That's the year that the movie Flashdance came out and launched a generation of leg warmer enthusiasts.

Debt Heads

S1.E2 - The House Always Wins (Part One)

780.086

That sounded so crazy to us because it was so recent.

Debt Heads

S1.E2 - The House Always Wins (Part One)

790.25

We needed to know what it was like to live in a time when the act of women burning bras in protest was documented in the daily newspapers. But the concept of a woman using her own credit card to buy a new bra was not.

Debt Heads

S1.E2 - The House Always Wins (Part One)

806.195

Thank you so much for taking this time. I really appreciate it.

Debt Heads

S1.E2 - The House Always Wins (Part One)

832.0

In addition to being one of the silliest strangers we've ever met on Zoom, Donna is a former radio DJ, professor of media studies at Emerson University, and music lover, who was credited during her stint as a DJ in Cleveland for launching the career of the 70s-era Canadian rock band... Rush.

Debt Heads

S1.E2 - The House Always Wins (Part One)

864.958

And just like Rashida Jones in the 2009 movie I Love You Man, we also didn't know anything about Rush until Paul Rudd provided us with some iTunes action.

Debt Heads

S1.E2 - The House Always Wins (Part One)

87.652

Oh, okay. Well, if it's not that, then it's also the year that Donna Summer was inspired by a female bathroom attendant to write the hit song, She Works Hard for the Money.

Debt Heads

S1.E2 - The House Always Wins (Part One)

937.895

And every steelworker and dancer were picking up the tracks Donna was laying down on the radio.

Debt Heads

S1.E2 - The House Always Wins (Part One)

979.235

I mean, I still have my silly gold card, okay? When Donna got her first American Express gold card...

Debt Heads

S1.E2 - The House Always Wins (Part One)

987.472

Women did not generally get approved for credit cards. See if I can find it and grab it. And if they did, they were associated with their husband's card. Here we go. But Donna didn't want a card in her husband's name.

Debt Heads

S1.E1 - The Secret Life of Debt Heads

0.429

This episode of Deadheads contains colorful language. If you have kids in the room, you might want to turn the volume up. Okay, let the fun begin. Okay, so... Restaurants? Alcohol? Health insurance? Holy shit! Oh my god. This number is giving me a lot of anxiety.

Debt Heads

S1.E1 - The Secret Life of Debt Heads

1007.577

If you could describe our money situation, our financial situation when I was growing up in one word, how would you describe it? Stressful.

Debt Heads

S1.E1 - The Secret Life of Debt Heads

1044.508

My mom was 23 when she moved in with my dad and 28 when she had me. She rushed into adulthood to get away from her own family. She made a lot of emotional decisions that had financial implications for both her life and mine.

Debt Heads

S1.E1 - The Secret Life of Debt Heads

1077.048

Yeah, like I don't have really good memories from this apartment. What do you remember about this apartment? I have memories of a lot of fighting, a lot of conflict for a lot of different reasons. But I feel like often they had to do with money and bills. Yeah. There was a lot of fighting in my house growing up, and to my six-year-old ears, it always sounded like it was about money.

Debt Heads

S1.E1 - The Secret Life of Debt Heads

108.157

What I did and did not want to tell Rachel that day was that I had $14,000 of credit card debt. And that I'd been maintaining that level of debt in secret for years. $14,000 worth of free-floating anxiety. $14,000 worth of sleepless nights. $14,000 worth of denial. Denial that was so entrenched, it kept me from opening my credit card statements or making anything but the minimum auto payments.

Debt Heads

S1.E1 - The Secret Life of Debt Heads

1106.222

But as I got a little older, I realized that the money part was just one piece of a much larger issue. My dad struggled with addiction. He wasn't always able to hold a job. Most of the time, it was chaos. Sometimes I didn't know what I was going to find on the other side of the door. And I often fell asleep to the sounds of my mom screaming about something that I couldn't understand.

Debt Heads

S1.E1 - The Secret Life of Debt Heads

1132.423

All I knew was that she was angry. And I hated that about her.

Debt Heads

S1.E1 - The Secret Life of Debt Heads

1142.326

Okay. On restaurants, I spent $516. Clothing, I spent $649.29 because I bought those two bathing suits. I bought those two bathing suits. Two bathing suits that were each $300? Yes. Yes. Baby suits are really difficult to find, and I found one that I felt really good in, and I bought two, one black one and one navy one.

Debt Heads

S1.E1 - The Secret Life of Debt Heads

1177.712

I've returned one. For over 10 years, I was engaged in a particularly modern form of cognitive dissonance. I was spending wildly without intention as to what I was buying or why. I simply could not wrap my mind around the fact that there might be another way to exist. Most experts will tell you that the first step to getting your finances under control is to make a budget. And they're not wrong.

Debt Heads

S1.E1 - The Secret Life of Debt Heads

1202.417

It works. The math is easy, and it's a really helpful tool. But I wasn't able to budget until my friend literally sat me down in a chair for several hours and held my hand while I did it, because those numbers were really fucking painful to look at.

Debt Heads

S1.E1 - The Secret Life of Debt Heads

1244.451

What Rachel made me realize is that I'd been operating out of a place of obligation. I was putting everyone else's needs before my own. Once I started aligning my money with my values more closely, budgeting felt not only possible, but maybe even kind of fun and exciting. I felt like I'd cracked the code, and now obviously I needed to tell everyone else.

Debt Heads

S1.E1 - The Secret Life of Debt Heads

1267.955

I'm Jamie, I live in Brooklyn, and I'm working to tackle $18,000 of credit card debt. I drove my friends to the airport, so I've been up since six. Over the years, I had cultivated a modest following from my work as a journalist, covering things like fashion, beauty, and lifestyle, all things I coincidentally spent way too much money on.

Debt Heads

S1.E1 - The Secret Life of Debt Heads

1284.8

So that didn't really feel like the right audience to talk to about having no money. I'll talk to you guys briefly about debt management plans versus paying off a credit card. Joining TikTok felt like the Wild West. where no one knew anything about me or anything I'd ever done before. What is this place? I don't see anybody I know.

Debt Heads

S1.E1 - The Secret Life of Debt Heads

1306.224

Just one tumbleweed and the sounds of crop top teens dancing in the glow of their ring lights behind the saloon door. This would be the perfect place to start a video journal chronicling my journey out of debt. Who in their right mind would watch a 30-something-year-old drone on about credit cards? So I hit publish and sent my very first message into the void. But wait, it's not a void.

Debt Heads

S1.E1 - The Secret Life of Debt Heads

1332.709

It's a 21st century social media platform with over a billion users. And even though I'd come across plenty of trolls in my time on the internet, once I started talking about money, they suddenly had a lot more to say. Should we read some of these? Ah, we'll get someone else to read them.

Debt Heads

S1.E1 - The Secret Life of Debt Heads

134.509

It was so deep that it was actually more than $14,000. After talking with Rachel that day, I opened all my accounts and realized the debt was more like $18,000. The denial was so bad that I didn't even realize how much debt I had.

Debt Heads

S1.E1 - The Secret Life of Debt Heads

1382.962

So here I am, stepping into my truth, bearing my insecurities, facing my past. I'm just beginning my unlearning of how I was taught and not taught about the concept of money and debt and choices and responsibility. And as I take a step toward healing the problem, this is the messaging I get. Shame on you. Actually, it was even more unhinged than that.

Debt Heads

S1.E1 - The Secret Life of Debt Heads

1410.33

People are angry with people like me.

Debt Heads

S1.E1 - The Secret Life of Debt Heads

1414.551

And they want me to know it.

Debt Heads

S1.E1 - The Secret Life of Debt Heads

1417.998

Thanks, Dottie. I came here to connect, but these voices reminded me that our culture understands financial failure as moral failure, that so much of the language around financial advice is infused with puritanical philosophies and methods. I started to hear the language everywhere, like this sentiment from personal finance columnist Michelle Singletary.

Debt Heads

S1.E1 - The Secret Life of Debt Heads

1438.703

After sharing a handful of tips and tricks for getting out of debt, she said something I've struggled to forget. That I should be suffering.

Debt Heads

S1.E1 - The Secret Life of Debt Heads

1454.474

I remember hearing that and thinking, don't they realize that suffering is what got me here in the first place?

Debt Heads

S1.E1 - The Secret Life of Debt Heads

1499.622

I didn't tell anyone anything about my debt for over a decade because I was so deeply ashamed and convinced that I was the only one. I not only believed that I alone had failed, I believed that this failure made me a bad person. I remember the day I told you about my debt, I was terrified that when you found out you were going to think differently of me.

Debt Heads

S1.E1 - The Secret Life of Debt Heads

1528.354

Like, that you were going to realize that I'd been lying to you about something terrible this whole time.

Debt Heads

S1.E1 - The Secret Life of Debt Heads

1547.369

Yeah, which is really the worst part of it all.

Debt Heads

S1.E1 - The Secret Life of Debt Heads

1700.515

Okay, sure, I shouldn't have been dropping $100 at group dinners or trying to keep up with all the latest fashion trends. Those were choices. But I didn't choose to attend $100 group dinners because I'm obsessed with overpaying for mediocre food. I went to social events and bought clothes to fit in because it's culturally expected to stay part of the group.

Debt Heads

S1.E1 - The Secret Life of Debt Heads

1744.136

I was silent for so many years in an attempt to separate myself from my problems, but that wasn't helping. What I needed was more connection, a different kind of connection, to be part of the group in a meaningful way.

Debt Heads

S1.E1 - The Secret Life of Debt Heads

1782.556

I know there's a lot of shit everywhere, but... Did you ever feel like there were bad memories here?

Debt Heads

S1.E1 - The Secret Life of Debt Heads

1804.537

When I was 11 years old, my father lost his battle with addiction in this apartment. And it was such a chaotic time that I never worked through all the ways I felt betrayed. Perhaps the hardest part to grapple with was understanding that in many ways, my mom felt relief when he died. That him dying was going to make her life easier.

Debt Heads

S1.E1 - The Secret Life of Debt Heads

1831.854

All these years later, my mom has turned this apartment into her favorite place in the world. But for me, it's the place where I had the worst day of my life. And it's always felt impossible for me to reconcile how those two things can be true at once. But that wasn't the whole story.

Debt Heads

S1.E1 - The Secret Life of Debt Heads

186.518

I want to know if anyone else is feeling extremely anxious like me.

Debt Heads

S1.E1 - The Secret Life of Debt Heads

1958.078

For so many years, I blamed my mom's anger on everything that happened. But she was angry because she couldn't pay the bills. She couldn't leave a child alone in the house. She couldn't get a job and leave me, so she couldn't pay for a family on her own. She didn't have anywhere to go. This was an economic problem as much as it was anything else.

Debt Heads

S1.E1 - The Secret Life of Debt Heads

1984.163

And it's the story of so many people in America, especially women, especially mothers. our freedoms are dictated by our economic stability. And my mom, like so many other moms, had to learn these lessons the hard way, but managed to keep our world spinning by building healthy communities.

Debt Heads

S1.E1 - The Secret Life of Debt Heads

2006.438

Over the years, she's cultivated a chosen family of women who have been there for each other in all kinds of ways, whether it's one of their Friday night cocktail parties or banding together in times of crisis. Like in the days following my dad's death, when a constant stream of people were coming in and out of our house to pay their respects.

Debt Heads

S1.E1 - The Secret Life of Debt Heads

2082.096

My mom sees her apartment as the place where she grew into the person and mother she wanted to be. And that person learned that financial freedom is not about doing everything on your own. It's about connecting and leaning on your community.

Debt Heads

S1.E1 - The Secret Life of Debt Heads

2129.358

Right? So maybe my mom didn't pass along the most practical financial wisdom. I didn't learn about credit cards or 401ks. But why do we consider that to be the only valuable financial advice based on one set of financial values? And is that advice even working?

Debt Heads

S1.E1 - The Secret Life of Debt Heads

2148.61

After I sifted through the gaggle of trolls under the TikTok bridge, I found that their voices, while loud and angry, were nothing compared to the many people who saw themselves in what I had to say.

Debt Heads

S1.E1 - The Secret Life of Debt Heads

2165.902

Jamie Feldman was once $20,000 in debt. I have $13,000 of credit card debt currently.

Debt Heads

S1.E1 - The Secret Life of Debt Heads

2199.456

She was really drunk, but still. The message was clear. People do want to talk about debt. They just needed someone to talk about it in a different way than from what we usually hear.

Debt Heads

S1.E1 - The Secret Life of Debt Heads

2259.836

80% of American families carry consumer debt.

Debt Heads

S1.E1 - The Secret Life of Debt Heads

2265.479

A quarter of us have student loan debt. Half of us has medical debt. And all of us are more pessimistic than ever about being able to pay it off.

Debt Heads

S1.E1 - The Secret Life of Debt Heads

2288.308

But we think we need a new narrative that asks a different question. It's not who is failing at the system, but who is the system failing?

Debt Heads

S1.E1 - The Secret Life of Debt Heads

2320.762

Thanks for listening to Deadheads. The rest of this five-part season is coming out starting on tax day, so it's probably already in your calendar. How convenient. While you wait, you can find bonus Deadheads subscriber content on our Patreon, get updates on the Deadheads sub stack, follow us on TikTok and Instagram at Deadheads Podcast, and I don't know, come over for dinner on Friday? Yeah.

Debt Heads

S1.E1 - The Secret Life of Debt Heads

235.638

You know, you just hit a point where the dread rises up so far that it just completely overwhelms you. That and the fact that I had been laid off a few months prior and there was just no way of keeping myself afloat or pretending to be afloat anymore. Now there was suddenly just no money coming in. There was no way to avoid it any longer.

Debt Heads

S1.E1 - The Secret Life of Debt Heads

274.837

And keeping my secret did make me feel safer because it gave me a false sense of control. But I was actually spinning out of control and keeping it all to myself was beginning to make me unsafe. Why am I telling you this? In order for me to be held accountable, I'm going to need you to come with me on this journey. The goal that I've set for myself is getting out of my credit card debt.

Debt Heads

S1.E1 - The Secret Life of Debt Heads

296.776

And if and when I'm able to do that, I'm going to get a cat.

Debt Heads

S1.E1 - The Secret Life of Debt Heads

30.598

I made $7,892 and I somehow spent $10,869 in one month in June. So how many months do you think you've done that? I don't know. How many months are in 33 years? This is the conversation that changed my life. It's the first time I revealed a deep, dark secret to my best friend. It was a conversation 10 years in the making, and it started like most things start in my life, on a walk.

Debt Heads

S1.E1 - The Secret Life of Debt Heads

315.421

And it was then that she could see not only herself, but just how many people had been hiding in the shadows with her. And that's where the story really begins. Welcome to Debt Heads. Welcome. Debt Heads is an investigation into the American economy. From the perspective of people in debt. Like us. Like everybody. I'm Jamie. And I'm Rachel. And we named this podcast after ourselves.

Debt Heads

S1.E1 - The Secret Life of Debt Heads

359.185

To live in denial over debt.

Debt Heads

S1.E1 - The Secret Life of Debt Heads

364.129

But most importantly, to start questioning why and how.

Debt Heads

S1.E1 - The Secret Life of Debt Heads

393.661

Unbelievable. When I started to seek out personal finance guidance, this was the first voice I heard. Dave Ramsey, one of the most recognizable and best-selling authors in the space.

Debt Heads

S1.E1 - The Secret Life of Debt Heads

414.866

You little wussy. You go to work. It's a theory that says we are in total control of our successes and failures. And it pays little credence to the environmental, structural, or collective factors at play.

Debt Heads

S1.E1 - The Secret Life of Debt Heads

441.159

And you don't have to look too hard to find other financial influencers who have adopted his style. Stop making excuses. It's your fault that you're broke. And are successfully spouting the same philosophies.

Debt Heads

S1.E1 - The Secret Life of Debt Heads

464.258

And it's got a clear solution. Stop being a stupid idiot child person.

Debt Heads

S1.E1 - The Secret Life of Debt Heads

481.353

That's a wrap. Forget it. What was I thinking? There's nothing else to say. That was so easy. What should we do now? Let's go get a cocktail.

Debt Heads

S1.E1 - The Secret Life of Debt Heads

531.532

They earn less than men, they have more responsibilities in the home than men, and they experience more financial stress than men.

Debt Heads

S1.E1 - The Secret Life of Debt Heads

646.95

But now that I'm an adult, I do wish I'd been given a chance to at least sleep through one of these classes.

Debt Heads

S1.E1 - The Secret Life of Debt Heads

654.195

Because studies show that exposure to this type of education leads to higher credit scores and lower credit card debt.

Debt Heads

S1.E1 - The Secret Life of Debt Heads

664.521

But unless I Josie Grossie my way into one of those classrooms never been kissed style, this form routine is shit out of luck.

Debt Heads

S1.E1 - The Secret Life of Debt Heads

680.629

As far back as 1922, Emily Post, an American author and socialite, wrote the gold standard for what's right and wrong in American manners.

Debt Heads

S1.E1 - The Secret Life of Debt Heads

69.452

My friend Rachel and I walk all over Brooklyn.

Debt Heads

S1.E1 - The Secret Life of Debt Heads

694.801

Should I do it with a funny voice?

Debt Heads

S1.E1 - The Secret Life of Debt Heads

712.692

And yet the well-bred, white bread and wheat bread loving among us still intensely dislike the mention of money and never speak of it.

Debt Heads

S1.E1 - The Secret Life of Debt Heads

732.199

And that number is even higher among young people. For millennials, it's 54%. And for Gen Z, it's 64%.

Debt Heads

S1.E1 - The Secret Life of Debt Heads

765.148

My mom is a very colorful person. For starters, she's got bright red hair and has a bag of yarn attached to her hip at all times, which she uses to crochet something brightly colored for just about everyone she meets, including complete strangers. Sam's apartment is as bright and inviting as she is, packed to the ceiling with all the kind of stuff she likes.

Debt Heads

S1.E1 - The Secret Life of Debt Heads

77.679

This is a path we've walked, I would say, maybe a hundred times before.

Debt Heads

S1.E1 - The Secret Life of Debt Heads

795.288

You missed this one back here. And I also didn't count these hanging ones.

Debt Heads

S1.E1 - The Secret Life of Debt Heads

798.771

The apartment also has its own soundtrack, mainly consisting of theme songs from Nick at Night. Which ones? Oh, God. It was always either Bewitched or Mary Tyler Moore or...

Debt Heads

S1.E1 - The Secret Life of Debt Heads

811.523

Yeah, the love boat. Soon we'll be making another run. Growing up, I talked to my mom about everything. She was the kind of parent who was also a friend. So there was basically nothing off limits. But I had never brought up money with her. Really? Yeah, it was just you and the whole internet. Not her. Hi, I'm Samantha. Hi, I'm Jamie. That's Samantha. I'm Samantha. That's Jamie. Okay.

Debt Heads

S1.E1 - The Secret Life of Debt Heads

835.743

What was your reaction when you saw the first thing that you saw I posted about my money situation? What was your reaction?

Debt Heads

S1.E1 - The Secret Life of Debt Heads

874.31

I was like my mom. We both had a habit of blowing through our money. Although for me, it was less about clothes and more about paying an obscene amount of money to live in a shitty slice of heaven in the East Village. This type of spending often meant that we were living beyond our means. Neither of us ever learned how to be good with money.

Debt Heads

S1.E1 - The Secret Life of Debt Heads

893.983

When I think back to my childhood, the only thing I remember knowing about money was that there never seemed to be enough of it. And so you never talked to your mom about money?

Debt Heads

S1.E1 - The Secret Life of Debt Heads

918.495

Did you have any thoughts about my financial education or what my relationship with money might look like?

Debt Heads

the survival guide to adulthood

0.309

Hi, this is Jamie and Rachel from Deadheads. We hope you've enjoyed part one of our limited narrative series. We're working hard to bring you the next episode.

Debt Heads

the survival guide to adulthood

105.166

And make sure you're signed up to this feed for the Deadheads podcast, where episode two is scheduled to come out this time next week. See you then.

Debt Heads

the survival guide to adulthood

27.879

This week, it's an interview with Claire Parker and Ashley Hamilton, co-hosts of Celebrity Memoir Book Club, all about making it work in the creator economy. Here's a sneak peek.

Debt Heads

the survival guide to adulthood

53.806

I mean, not wrong, not wrong.

Debt Heads

the survival guide to adulthood

7.632

In the meantime, we wanted to introduce you to the Deadheads bonus content, which will live exclusively on Patreon and is for anyone who wants to hear a slightly less inquisitive, slightly more practical conversation about money, mental health, and this made up thing we call the economy. We're starting this content with a mini video series that we're calling The Survival Guide to Adulthood.

Debt Heads

the survival guide to adulthood

86.519

So if you're down to clown and want to support our work with a subscription, check out the Deadheads Patreon, where you'll find the survival guide to adulthood, plus all the extra stuff that doesn't fit into our main podcast. It's going to be fun, loose, and silly, but also serious. Think of it like a grab bag. Think of it as playing dress up in Barbie's nightmare house. With us. Fun.

Debt Heads

S1.E3 - The House Always Wins (Part Two)

0.349

Hi, this is Jamie from Deadheads. This is Episode 2, Part 2. A lot of people loved Episode 2, Part 1, so if you haven't listened, you should do so. You might also love it, and you'll definitely be less confused. Okay, enjoy Episode 2, Part 2 of Deadheads.

Debt Heads

S1.E3 - The House Always Wins (Part Two)

1024.194

And that's the way it used to be in America as well. Credit bureaus have existed since the 1800s. But back then, they were only used to determine credit for business loans, not to determine your ability to do things like buy a house.

Debt Heads

S1.E3 - The House Always Wins (Part Two)

1042.318

Whoa, that's the year I was born. So the credit score is just a little baby like me and Taylor Swift?

Debt Heads

S1.E3 - The House Always Wins (Part Two)

1064.21

Oh, OK. So the credit score is meant to standardize lending, like to make it less subjective. So women like Donna and minorities and basically anyone else locked out of the old boys club could get access to lending, too.

Debt Heads

S1.E3 - The House Always Wins (Part Two)

1082.846

Yes. Financial Institution. Oh, okay. Financial Information.

Debt Heads

S1.E3 - The House Always Wins (Part Two)

1095.719

Oh, okay. Brangelina. Bennifer. Yeah.

Debt Heads

S1.E3 - The House Always Wins (Part Two)

110.991

It was the Olive Garden of banks. When you're here, you're family.

Debt Heads

S1.E3 - The House Always Wins (Part Two)

1160.665

We met John outside on a very windy day at 3.35 p.m. We know it was 3.35 because we were running late.

Debt Heads

S1.E3 - The House Always Wins (Part Two)

1197.091

The story itself is tragic. A man died and a family was torn apart. But there's a more sinister layer to the story that Ronson shared with us too. And it involves one of those credit bureaus, Experian.

Debt Heads

S1.E3 - The House Always Wins (Part Two)

1252.191

And John was able to get this information directly from the horse's mouth.

Debt Heads

S1.E3 - The House Always Wins (Part Two)

1275.635

John asked how he was categorized, and according to the program, he was what's called a global connector.

Debt Heads

S1.E3 - The House Always Wins (Part Two)

1289.128

On a less flattering end of the spectrum were the welfare borderlines, people who Weber rudely described as having questionable aesthetics.

Debt Heads

S1.E3 - The House Always Wins (Part Two)

1316.026

And here's how they described that group.

Debt Heads

S1.E3 - The House Always Wins (Part Two)

1360.117

And while we're all out here complaining about the price of eggs, the profit margin for grocery stores is only 1.6%. And here's the icing on the grocery store sheet cake.

Debt Heads

S1.E3 - The House Always Wins (Part Two)

1385.14

Lenders like to claim that their business is risky. But over time, they've turned their business into more than a sure bet.

Debt Heads

S1.E3 - The House Always Wins (Part Two)

1394.266

In the late 90s, when MasterCard debuted the Priceless campaign, they had been suffering as a company. People were concerned about debt, and there was a backlash.

Debt Heads

S1.E3 - The House Always Wins (Part Two)

1425.134

There are plenty of things that money can't buy. But this ad makes us question, do we need to buy a $45 autographed baseball to have a real conversation with our 11-year-old son? Certainly suggests that it would be helpful and a lot more fun.

Debt Heads

S1.E3 - The House Always Wins (Part Two)

151.649

The MasterCard Priceless campaign, which persists in advertising to this day, featured one instantly recognizable tagline.

Debt Heads

S1.E3 - The House Always Wins (Part Two)

1547.876

When we're choosing a card, most of us ignore the fees, the interest rates, the long-winded terms and penalties. Instead, we zero in on rewards. Like 0% APR for 18 months. Or triple points for every dollar spent at the gas station. Or best of all, a nylon drawstring backpack emblazoned with JPMorgan Chase. I signed up for a Chase Sapphire card because I heard they were giving out nylon backpacks.

Debt Heads

S1.E3 - The House Always Wins (Part Two)

1569.801

Really? No. I did hear, though, that they were offering people 100,000 points. And I knew a bunch of people getting married at the time, and they were all using those points to upgrade their flights and accommodations for their honeymoons.

Debt Heads

S1.E3 - The House Always Wins (Part Two)

1585.423

No, I was a broke journalist. I barely had $4,000 to cover the amount I'd have to spend on the card in the first three months to get the points in the first place. You see where this is going? Yeah.

Debt Heads

S1.E3 - The House Always Wins (Part Two)

1622.668

So many of us are not cashing in on these points, but somebody is. How do the credit cards pay for giving away all this free stuff?

Debt Heads

S1.E3 - The House Always Wins (Part Two)

1639.006

No. Interchange fees. Sounds like pieces of shit to me.

Debt Heads

S1.E3 - The House Always Wins (Part Two)

1652.274

Even those of us who don't use credit cards?

Debt Heads

S1.E3 - The House Always Wins (Part Two)

1664.864

Elena calls all of this the debt machine.

Debt Heads

S1.E3 - The House Always Wins (Part Two)

1746.99

And how few of us seemed to know anything at all about the devious ways these companies were working against us at every turn.

Debt Heads

S1.E3 - The House Always Wins (Part Two)

1838.673

But this interview is from 15 years ago, and the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau that established the CARD Act has been under attack ever since. Just this year, Elon Musk tweeted, RIP CFPB.

Debt Heads

S1.E3 - The House Always Wins (Part Two)

1871.59

To Elena, the CART Act was like putting a Band-Aid on a bullet wound. But we don't need Band-Aids. We need to stop the shooting in the first place.

Debt Heads

S1.E3 - The House Always Wins (Part Two)

1890.694

Sort of like the business model for cigarettes.

Debt Heads

S1.E3 - The House Always Wins (Part Two)

1926.653

Cigarettes damage your organs. Cigarettes cause cancer. Tobacco smoke harms children. Cigarettes cause impotence. Cigarettes cause leukemia.

Debt Heads

S1.E3 - The House Always Wins (Part Two)

1936.604

You cannot escape the foreboding message, which is, this product is designed to hurt you. How do we get those on American cigarettes?

Debt Heads

S1.E3 - The House Always Wins (Part Two)

1951.755

After learning everything we did from Elena, we thought about Donna and her beloved American Express. Was this the future that these feminists from the 70s were fighting for?

Debt Heads

S1.E3 - The House Always Wins (Part Two)

1988.265

And in 2025, I don't make that much money either. What I do have is lots of access to credit.

Debt Heads

S1.E3 - The House Always Wins (Part Two)

1999.608

When we were wrapping up this episode, I got an email from Chase with the subject line, congratulations. I'm calling because I was recently sent an email that my credit limit was extended from $16,500 to $20,600 and I didn't ask for this extension and I don't want it. The customer service agent was kind and helpful and reversed it immediately.

Debt Heads

S1.E3 - The House Always Wins (Part Two)

2027.133

Turns out you have to opt out of these increases, which most people probably don't realize. But the call is relatively easy. Okay. Have a lovely day. All right, you too. Thanks.

Debt Heads

S1.E3 - The House Always Wins (Part Two)

203.271

Welcome to Deadheads. Welcome. Deadheads is an investigation into the American economy. From the perspective of people in debt. Like us. Like everybody. I'm Jamie. And I'm Rachel. And we named this podcast after ourselves.

Debt Heads

S1.E3 - The House Always Wins (Part Two)

2082.697

Yeah, and these aren't things you can put much of a price on, but in a system where profit is the goal, the things we love will always be a target for exploitation. So we just have one more question. Hey Siri, where's the nearest cash-only diner? I want to take my friend out to lunch.

Debt Heads

S1.E3 - The House Always Wins (Part Two)

2125.709

Duh. Deadheads is written, produced, and edited by us, Jamie Feldman and Rachel Webster. Our theme song is Pay for That Money by The Defibrillators. Original music is composed by Ali Helmwein. Our research assistant is Jeanette Selig. And this episode was mixed by Jeff Seeley. Thanks to our railway systems. Thank you to Sarah Sengner for inspiring us to move to Germany.

Debt Heads

S1.E3 - The House Always Wins (Part Two)

2145.958

And to Kathleen McDowell for giving us the title of this episode. You can learn more about the debt machine in Elena Botea's book, Delinquent.

Debt Heads

S1.E3 - The House Always Wins (Part Two)

2159.441

And thanks again to Donna Halper for sharing her very quotable thoughts with the world.

Debt Heads

S1.E3 - The House Always Wins (Part Two)

218.319

To live in denial over debt.

Debt Heads

S1.E3 - The House Always Wins (Part Two)

223.102

But most importantly, to start questioning why and how. America became a country full of deadheads. The chase card has the most because that's my highest limit. The limit is 16,000 and it's like about to be maxed out. So, and that's a 20.24%. Yeah. So let's,

Debt Heads

S1.E3 - The House Always Wins (Part Two)

298.12

Yeah, that would be easier. That would be really amazing. Ah, to go back to a time when we didn't borrow money for literally every single thing. When was that?

Debt Heads

S1.E3 - The House Always Wins (Part Two)

353.042

Being less of a straight-A student than Rach, I was not on a Zoom lecture with a debtors' rights activist organization. I was out on a date, which is why I answered the phone. Wasn't he wearing, like, pajama pants or something? Basketball shorts. Don't remind me. I'd never used the, like, get out of a date by faking an emergency thing before, but this actually did feel quite urgent. It was urgent.

Debt Heads

S1.E3 - The House Always Wins (Part Two)

36.179

Off the top of my head, no. And I got some great advice from a financial expert. Hey, Siri. Uh-huh? Can you tell me how to get out of debt? This week, we'll speak to not one, but two muckraking journalists, one of whom started as an insider in the credit card industry.

Debt Heads

S1.E3 - The House Always Wins (Part Two)

386.89

Just get extra mustard.

Debt Heads

S1.E3 - The House Always Wins (Part Two)

399.415

And like judgmental New Yorkers, we were shocked to find very few other people on the streets on such a gorgeous day.

Debt Heads

S1.E3 - The House Always Wins (Part Two)

434.614

She's the kind of practical, level-headed person who has not one, but multiple forms of allergy medicine to offer.

Debt Heads

S1.E3 - The House Always Wins (Part Two)

489.171

Elena knows a lot about credit cards and their profits because she spent her early career working for a bank that made so much money with its credit products, it could pay very famous people to deliver its very famous slogan. Like Sam Jackson.

Debt Heads

S1.E3 - The House Always Wins (Part Two)

502.839

Or Jennifer Garner. What's in your wallet? Don't forget Alec Baldwin.

Debt Heads

S1.E3 - The House Always Wins (Part Two)

507.622

God, I wonder how much these people got paid for these commercials.

Debt Heads

S1.E3 - The House Always Wins (Part Two)

539.433

But this was her to-go margarita. She was a true believer that lending was the salty rim on the frosty glass of a financially stable life.

Debt Heads

S1.E3 - The House Always Wins (Part Two)

568.049

The only unmet need in Elena's apartment was a belly rub for the cats.

Debt Heads

S1.E3 - The House Always Wins (Part Two)

584.555

With each passing year, she discovered ever more sinister corporate behavior that, while not illegal, was not exactly the lofty social value that she had assumed.

Debt Heads

S1.E3 - The House Always Wins (Part Two)

657.491

But that notion is simplistic at best, and at worst, just plain wrong.

Debt Heads

S1.E3 - The House Always Wins (Part Two)

69.164

It's so crazy that we both spent some of our formative years here.

Debt Heads

S1.E3 - The House Always Wins (Part Two)

694.732

So that means the more they raise your limit, the more debt you're likely to have. Oh, right. And you've never even asked for it.

Debt Heads

S1.E3 - The House Always Wins (Part Two)

73.187

I was in college. And I was right around the corner in high school. And we were the exact same age, and we were always friends.

Debt Heads

S1.E3 - The House Always Wins (Part Two)

733.632

If you can believe it, we were able to track down another person who had some qualms about their time spent working in the credit card industry.

Debt Heads

S1.E3 - The House Always Wins (Part Two)

746.879

She worked for nearly 20 years for some of the heaviest hitters in the banking world, Visa, JPMorgan Chase, and Citi in the marketing department.

Debt Heads

S1.E3 - The House Always Wins (Part Two)

766.489

Not to brag, but I was the perfect credit card customer. I carried my balance diligently for 10 years, only ever making the minimum payments.

Debt Heads

S1.E3 - The House Always Wins (Part Two)

867.682

Elena says that most people get charged late fees when they pay their bill mere hours after it's due.

Debt Heads

S1.E3 - The House Always Wins (Part Two)

904.119

Everyone we spoke to echoed the sentiment.

Debt Heads

S1.E3 - The House Always Wins (Part Two)

921.949

Just building credit. If Americans know one thing about credit, it's that we need to have a good credit score.

Debt Heads

S1.E3 - The House Always Wins (Part Two)

933.219

We need one to get an apartment, a phone plan, a mortgage, a business loan, utilities, a second phone plan. And we think that we have to have a credit card to build that good score. But not everyone thinks this way.

Debt Heads

S1.E3 - The House Always Wins (Part Two)

978.908

Sarah's beat is finance, but it was only when she came to America that she had to learn about consumer debt.

Debt Heads

Coming Soon: Debt Heads Season One

0.149

There are 3,200,000 podcasts in the world. So what's one more? Hi, I'm Jamie. And I'm Rachel.

Debt Heads

Coming Soon: Debt Heads Season One

107.849

Maces. We are endeavoring to tell the millennial story by exploring the insidious political and economic policies. Do you know what your interest rate is?

Debt Heads

Coming Soon: Debt Heads Season One

11.829

And we're in debt. We are in debt. I have a lot of debt.

Debt Heads

Coming Soon: Debt Heads Season One

119.99

Spend, spend, spend is the marketing agenda. You can shop online. Oh, no, no, no, no, no. Shopping is my cardio. That have defined America over the last four decades.

Debt Heads

Coming Soon: Debt Heads Season One

142.843

In a world that is increasingly difficult to live in.

Debt Heads

Coming Soon: Debt Heads Season One

154.227

And we want you to be the first to hear it.

Debt Heads

Coming Soon: Debt Heads Season One

23.557

And I didn't. But both of us have struggled with money over the years because we're deadbeats. Losers. We care more about dancing than making money.

Debt Heads

Coming Soon: Debt Heads Season One

39.156

I have been struggling with debt for eight years. I have $250,000 of student loan debt. $36,000 of credit card debt. The first season of Debt Heads is a six-episode miniseries that investigates the architecture of personal finance.

Debt Heads

Coming Soon: Debt Heads Season One

65.537

You unbelievable little children people. And uncovers the deeper structures that have created an economy that feels unsafe for most people.

Debt Heads

Coming Soon: Debt Heads Season One

83.591

Does anybody choose to get old? Does anybody choose to be addicted to opioids? Does anybody choose to be in debt? The answer is no.

Debt Heads

Coming Soon: Debt Heads Season One

92.838

We're not sponsored by Helix mattresses.

Debt Heads

Coming Soon: Debt Heads Season One

96.701

Or Purple mattresses.