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Jamie Dickerson

Appearances

Murder In America

EP. 192: TENNESSEE - The Confession: A Massive Update In The April Holt Case

1019.629

Where'd she meet him? I don't even know this guy.

Murder In America

EP. 192: TENNESSEE - The Confession: A Massive Update In The April Holt Case

1092.421

Yeah, but, you know, she was then, you know, it's good. But when you're telling me, at least I can almost also then see, like, that's a lot on her head as well. Because when you walk around and you know you're doing something that everybody else is not going to be favorable for. And yet you're trying, because I know in her heart she wanted to walk this Christian path.

Murder In America

EP. 192: TENNESSEE - The Confession: A Massive Update In The April Holt Case

1115.91

But then it's like having a good and a bad, you know, on your shoulders. And it's like a constant, like, wait, I want to do this, but this isn't my year over here. And that's really hard. And I know she loved you. I know she loved you. But she would say the same about you. She would literally say, Donovan is my best friend.

Murder In America

EP. 192: TENNESSEE - The Confession: A Massive Update In The April Holt Case

1147.603

So even though I don't know that we should be married, she said, he's my best friend. And I said, I get that, but it's okay to co-parent like people co-parent. But at the same time, I know that your love for her, that level of love is hard to give up.

Murder In America

EP. 192: TENNESSEE - The Confession: A Massive Update In The April Holt Case

1244.56

Yeah. So, you know, we had went through all that.

Murder In America

EP. 192: TENNESSEE - The Confession: A Massive Update In The April Holt Case

1315.373

i don't know if you're well i know you remember but when we lived in atlanta and we came back and look and we're living at nana's house yeah no i remember all that going down and here's and she told me that it was just an online thing with you some kind of phone relationship or whatever is she did tell me that she did tell me that it was a phone thing

Murder In America

EP. 192: TENNESSEE - The Confession: A Massive Update In The April Holt Case

1335.034

because i had asked her i was like well were they ever physically you know sexual did they do and she said no she was honest about that she just said that she was so mad but she didn't you know i didn't know about her end of anything i just knew about your end you know so like and that was my thing i just i never wanted to make her look bad at all even when things going on to me it was like okay we can handle this in-house and it was hard to you know it's hard to

Murder In America

EP. 192: TENNESSEE - The Confession: A Massive Update In The April Holt Case

1443.354

I was going to say, he wouldn't have probably... Zach's kind of more temperamental, I would say. Yeah.

Murder In America

EP. 192: TENNESSEE - The Confession: A Massive Update In The April Holt Case

1454.403

Mocha, come here. Leave Marvin alone. Sorry.

Murder In America

EP. 192: TENNESSEE - The Confession: A Massive Update In The April Holt Case

1632.864

I am too. I get it. I know. It's a problem.

Murder In America

EP. 192: TENNESSEE - The Confession: A Massive Update In The April Holt Case

2150.003

They told me that it was going to be the two years and one month is what they told me. They were like, so you can agree. This is what I had to do. They were like, you can agree to the two years, one month and eight years probation, which added up to Denzel being 18 because he couldn't get off the eight years early. Or I could take the chance and bring it before the judge.

Murder In America

EP. 192: TENNESSEE - The Confession: A Massive Update In The April Holt Case

2170.151

He might get an extra one year in jail, but that judge could have taken it off of his record and he wouldn't have had a felony. And in addition to that, the eight years could have been less. And I could have that would have been like me playing, you know, a game of, hey, I would lose Denzel. And I was like, I'm not willing to lose Denzel. So.

Murder In America

EP. 192: TENNESSEE - The Confession: A Massive Update In The April Holt Case

2191.78

So they're like, well, you chose this. I was like, no, I didn't choose it. I didn't have a choice.

Murder In America

EP. 192: TENNESSEE - The Confession: A Massive Update In The April Holt Case

2203.168

And I asked him, I said, is that judge? You know, how is this judge? Is she pretty hard on these type of cases? And they're like, well, there's a likelihood that she'll take it off of his record. And I said, absolutely not. Why would this ever be taken off of a record? No, I'm just so confused by it all.

Murder In America

EP. 192: TENNESSEE - The Confession: A Massive Update In The April Holt Case

2245.66

not having to admit that they were wrong all the way because if they would have done like first or second degree murder then it would have looked like they didn't do their job at all you know and it would have proved them completely incompetent whereby this it's like well we have to do something because she did get a confession so and she's been calling us out on our wrongdoings all this time so this is how we're going to pay her back yeah and i'm like

Murder In America

EP. 192: TENNESSEE - The Confession: A Massive Update In The April Holt Case

2269.349

What are you paying back? You're going to let somebody back out into society that shouldn't be. It doesn't make any sense. No.

Murder In America

EP. 192: TENNESSEE - The Confession: A Massive Update In The April Holt Case

2310.787

It's like they're just they've been up against us this whole time, but like almost like on his side, like on Donovan's side. Like you would think he knew somebody in there with the way that it's went. And I was like, there's no way that this judge or any of these detectives would have. This would not have been this way if it was their family. Is this only because it's us?

Murder In America

EP. 192: TENNESSEE - The Confession: A Massive Update In The April Holt Case

2366.273

I think, is that what it's called? Community corrections. I think that's the name.

Murder In America

EP. 192: TENNESSEE - The Confession: A Massive Update In The April Holt Case

2369.756

Yeah. I don't know what that is, but somebody explained to me was that it's almost like he's then protected because he's in a

Murder In America

EP. 192: TENNESSEE - The Confession: A Massive Update In The April Holt Case

2377.884

place that they placed him and now he's still going to be protected from society because now his face is about everywhere living the life because he's not in a prison he's just in the local jail and they said that they're not moving him because he'll be out in 18 months that's crazy so he's not actually having to like go to like one of those really hard places right he's just he was actually on the video game that denzel was on and denzel's like look my dad is um logged in here i was like

Murder In America

EP. 192: TENNESSEE - The Confession: A Massive Update In The April Holt Case

2406.687

So I had went and told the DCS attorney. I was like, how come they're allowed to play video games in there and reach out to the outside world? And she's like, they are. They're allowed to do that. What?

Murder In America

EP. 192: TENNESSEE - The Confession: A Massive Update In The April Holt Case

2422.215

Yes. He was playing video games. They're allowed to accept. They have internet so they can reach the outside world.

Murder In America

EP. 192: TENNESSEE - The Confession: A Massive Update In The April Holt Case

2441.808

Only because DCS, we had it added to our side. This, so. The sheriff's department, like his criminal case, they wouldn't help us at all with custody. So we had to have that added on our custody hearing. And we had a portion added on there that says until he's fulfilled all legal obligations, he can't take me to court, take us to court. And so he has to fulfill obligations.

Murder In America

EP. 192: TENNESSEE - The Confession: A Massive Update In The April Holt Case

2468.852

all of those eight years, which then Denzel will be 18. If I wouldn't have had that added, who knows if he could have got him back?

Murder In America

EP. 192: TENNESSEE - The Confession: A Massive Update In The April Holt Case

2599.284

And then I got that paper this morning saying that they're immune from even being reprimanded for the actions that these police have had, like that they're immune to it. Because I had placed a claim with like their legal department and I've placed three claims. And every time they keep kicking it back and I was like, no, I want to know why. Why is this allowed?

Murder In America

EP. 192: TENNESSEE - The Confession: A Massive Update In The April Holt Case

2617.557

And finally they sent me this thing saying, well, they're immune to it. How are you immune to it? So you can just say and do whatever you feel like. And they're protected. Pretty much.

Murder In America

EP. 192: TENNESSEE - The Confession: A Massive Update In The April Holt Case

2660.398

I don't know. I don't know. It's very, I'm just so confused. I don't, I don't understand any of it to be, I mean, I'm just baffled by the entire thing. I've never thought in a million years, if you had to live such a nightmare that then you would have to have this kind of outcome, corrupt justice system.

Murder In America

EP. 192: TENNESSEE - The Confession: A Massive Update In The April Holt Case

2682.262

At least if you had to go through a child that was murdered, you would think that the system would be on your side trying to get that person off the street and get justice. And they've been completely up against us the entire time, up until still. From the very beginning.

Murder In America

EP. 192: TENNESSEE - The Confession: A Massive Update In The April Holt Case

2699.143

Yeah. There's nothing I can do. That's the frustrating part is like I've exhausted every outcome. Now all I can do is call them out. Now all I can do is point the finger and let people know, hey, this is what you this is what you guys are relying on to to protect your family. And so that's why I was like, I'll keep calling them out. It doesn't bother me. They didn't do anything for me.

Murder In America

EP. 192: TENNESSEE - The Confession: A Massive Update In The April Holt Case

2739.766

And that's why I told you, I was like, if I'm going to release it, then I want you guys to have it. And I think he doesn't start to confess until like 20 something minutes in. So first you have to listen to him go on and on about nothingness.

Murder In America

EP. 192: TENNESSEE - The Confession: A Massive Update In The April Holt Case

2750.55

Trying to cut, trying to talk all nice and beat around it. Yeah. And then tell me that you killed my kid. Like it's a normal conversation to have with somebody. And then I'm supposed to sit there calmly and just not react. Cause I knew Denzel was still there.

Murder In America

EP. 192: TENNESSEE - The Confession: A Massive Update In The April Holt Case

2764.474

So I was like, okay, now you just have to sit here, call me and act like you're not because he was looking at my face and I'm like, what if he does something? What if he snaps again?

Murder In America

EP. 192: TENNESSEE - The Confession: A Massive Update In The April Holt Case

2780.607

Yeah. It took him literally a couple of minutes and they, they wanted to like, they kept saying. They needed April's phone for so long because they took everything off her phone.

Murder In America

EP. 192: TENNESSEE - The Confession: A Massive Update In The April Holt Case

2791.447

After we gave it to him. They gave it back to Donovan. Then he used it as his own phone. Until he was arrested. He turned it into his phone.

Murder In America

EP. 192: TENNESSEE - The Confession: A Massive Update In The April Holt Case

2818.356

Yes. I don't understand how you can like, somebody can actually confess to a murder. Like they actually, this isn't something that they're trying to prove. He's actually said he did it. And then they're like, well, you can have two years.

Murder In America

EP. 192: TENNESSEE - The Confession: A Massive Update In The April Holt Case

2833.53

And it was an accident. And then they want to believe him after he lied. And one of his charges is actually lying. And now you want to believe him again. I'm like, oh, that makes a lot of sense. It was falsifying a report. And yet you want to believe him that he unaccidentally did this.

Murder In America

EP. 192: TENNESSEE - The Confession: A Massive Update In The April Holt Case

2858.472

And I told them like when I even placed my claim, I was like, you guys should the police should be liable for putting Denzel for 10 months in danger. Anything could have happened to him, not to mention the mental health like deterioration that had happened in that 10 months that we had to try to. Now he's on medicine and he's in his trauma therapy and a psychiatrist.

Murder In America

EP. 192: TENNESSEE - The Confession: A Massive Update In The April Holt Case

2879.166

And but like how much more damage was caused because of that 10 months and he didn't get immediate help. And I'm like, they don't take responsibility. They're immune to it all. They don't have to. There's nothing. They don't have to do anything.

Murder In America

EP. 192: TENNESSEE - The Confession: A Massive Update In The April Holt Case

2910.014

Oh, my God. They didn't care at all. They're like, custody is something completely different. I'm like craziness.

Murder In America

EP. 192: TENNESSEE - The Confession: A Massive Update In The April Holt Case

2927.866

We were like, it's not even as much about views. It's that you guys get it and you guys get the frustration that's behind this system. And that's why I was like, I mean, Jeremiah hasn't even talked to anybody, but you guys, like he doesn't even talk to anybody for him to even get on here. Like he doesn't talk to nobody. He's like, so he likes you guys.

Murder In America

EP. 192: TENNESSEE - The Confession: A Massive Update In The April Holt Case

2949.407

Cause otherwise he'd be downstairs playing his video game right now.

Murder In America

EP. 192: TENNESSEE - The Confession: A Massive Update In The April Holt Case

2985.822

We're going to make sure the more people that can start pointing fingers, the more they're going to have to start to think about, hey, I'm going to do my job a little better because I'm going to be called out. And so the more people that will start to have a backbone and actually call them out, they're going to have to change their ways because people don't just keep putting up with it.

Murder In America

EP. 192: TENNESSEE - The Confession: A Massive Update In The April Holt Case

3005.81

It's that people are scared of them and they don't want to upset them. And probably for the kind of outcome we got of the two years, they don't want to risk that. But to let them get away with it, absolutely not. I'm like, I'm not, I'm not going to let that happen either.

Murder In America

EP. 192: TENNESSEE - The Confession: A Massive Update In The April Holt Case

3020.731

I do go to a commissioner meeting in March to help try to get a medical examiner office closer to where we are, because then we it's like the fourth biggest county and they don't have one. And where April's body was sent 66 counties send their bodies there. And so they're not getting the enough attention per case. And so I'm helping them try to get one.

Murder In America

EP. 192: TENNESSEE - The Confession: A Massive Update In The April Holt Case

3043.312

And they're using April's case as their case study. And they're hoping to use it for training nationwide.

Murder In America

EP. 192: TENNESSEE - The Confession: A Massive Update In The April Holt Case

3077.608

They planted seeds the whole time. So anybody that read that automatically thought, well, she was looking up suicide sites when she wasn't that she was on drugs and alcohol, which she wasn't. And you're just like, they kept making, they painted a picture of her that was so wrong. And it wasn't who she was and they just all believed it from the very get go.

Murder In America

EP. 192: TENNESSEE - The Confession: A Massive Update In The April Holt Case

3097.456

And so that's why I'm trying to get it where the investigator isn't allowed to have any say or be in the autopsy until it's been done completely. Let it be a medical evaluation only first. Yes. And then put all the pieces, but don't add their opinion to your report. No.

Murder In America

EP. 192: TENNESSEE - The Confession: A Massive Update In The April Holt Case

3123.488

Yeah. And so I don't get it. So those are some of the changes that I'm working with them. So the death investigation team in Rutherford County, that's who I'm working with. And so I'm really just hoping that

Murder In America

EP. 192: TENNESSEE - The Confession: A Massive Update In The April Holt Case

3167.454

I could have, and they actually said they would read it for me, but I told them no. I told them they can't read my words. So I just posted it publicly.

Murder In America

EP. 192: TENNESSEE - The Confession: A Massive Update In The April Holt Case

3181.338

July 29th, 2023 was a day I will never forget. A piece of my soul was taken from this earth, from her children. from her family and friends and from her future plans. I didn't get to look in April's eyes that day to see her pain. I didn't get to rescue her. The questions of did she suffer? Was she scared her last moments of life? Did she fight for her life?

Murder In America

EP. 192: TENNESSEE - The Confession: A Massive Update In The April Holt Case

3213.707

And did she cry will always haunt my mind. Her eyes last vision was looking into the eyes of the man who took her hand in marriage and promised to protect her and love her. The man she loved and the hands that she held feeling comforted in the end were the same hands that wrapped around her neck, taking her life away. The courts like to see this as an act of reckless homicide.

Murder In America

EP. 192: TENNESSEE - The Confession: A Massive Update In The April Holt Case

3246.67

After her breath was taken from her, she was treated as a piece of garbage. And that's what destroys me to the core. She was drugged to the shower and a garbage bag was placed over her head and then taped. Donovan then proceeded to go into the next room and eat lunch with their seven-year-old son, who he then sent in the bathroom to find his mother dead lying there on the floor.

Murder In America

EP. 192: TENNESSEE - The Confession: A Massive Update In The April Holt Case

3271.649

The mindset is that of someone who has a mental illness. The mindset is not of reckless homicide, but rather a premeditated act of murder. This was not an accidental death. The actions that took place after April was no longer breathing were intentional and deliberate. He staged April's death as a suicide.

Murder In America

EP. 192: TENNESSEE - The Confession: A Massive Update In The April Holt Case

3292.851

He had a bag and tape ready and prepared where no person would think to wrap up their spouse's head and take the bag if their partner, who they claimed to love, was not breathing. In a sexual act, a partner would make all attempts to rescue their spouse. The lies began the second the 911 call was made and the procedures that followed were nothing short of erratical.

Murder In America

EP. 192: TENNESSEE - The Confession: A Massive Update In The April Holt Case

3315.473

April was born into this world as a gift from God to me, her mother. I watched her grow up into the beautiful, amazing, loving woman she had become. She loved and adored her two children and often talked about how excited she was for her their futures.

Murder In America

EP. 192: TENNESSEE - The Confession: A Massive Update In The April Holt Case

3335.894

She spoke about how she was looking forward to buying a home within the next year, opening a training studio to teach others to do lashes, foster children, and continue to grow in youth ministry leadership roles. April was as soft as a feather, floating to the ground with such ease and calmness. April was a friend to all and even wore her smile when I knew she didn't want to. April was the first.

Murder In America

EP. 192: TENNESSEE - The Confession: A Massive Update In The April Holt Case

3362.458

of what our family calls the first six, which are the first six grandkids who were raised so close together that they were like siblings. All of that was taken from her and from us. She didn't ask to die. She did not take her own life. Like Donovan told many people, including her children, this lie was thought to be true by so many people for almost a year.

Murder In America

EP. 192: TENNESSEE - The Confession: A Massive Update In The April Holt Case

3387.406

So many people thought April was that sad and none of us even were aware. I knew in my heart that is not what happened and Donovan met me each week with months to exchange Denzel and looked me in my eyes knowing what he had done to my daughter. Knowing that I was fighting for justice, knowing he sent his seven-year-old son in that bathroom that day to find his mom dead on the floor.

Murder In America

EP. 192: TENNESSEE - The Confession: A Massive Update In The April Holt Case

3410.499

We have experienced every parent's worst nightmare. We live with this pain for the rest of our lives and a hole in our hearts that can never be filled. There will always be an empty chair at the table and at all of life's milestones that her children reach. This was all taken by the hands of another human being who has been given charges as if he simply made a mistake.

Murder In America

EP. 192: TENNESSEE - The Confession: A Massive Update In The April Holt Case

3437.563

It was not a mistake to lie about what happened. It was not a mistake to treat April like a piece of garbage. It was not a mistake to send Denzel in the bathroom, traumatizing him forever. It was not a mistake to tamper with evidence. It was not a mistake to falsify a report. This was intentional homicide of an innocent person. I am a Christian woman with faith that I didn't even know I had.

Murder In America

EP. 192: TENNESSEE - The Confession: A Massive Update In The April Holt Case

3459.899

Through this tragedy in my life, I have found that I am much stronger than I ever thought. I won't walk around with an anger that strips me of the person I've been created to be. I will walk in the spirit and not the flesh.

Murder In America

EP. 192: TENNESSEE - The Confession: A Massive Update In The April Holt Case

3475.365

raising april's two children serenity and denzel to have loving hearts they will carry their memories of their mom and them always and we will channel our energy of missing her into giving back just like she would want us to we have a grief um a grief center opened which now we don't but we have grieve with me still the non-profit i pray that donovan asks for true forgiveness for his actions i pray for eternity with christ because i can't imagine the alternative

Murder In America

EP. 192: TENNESSEE - The Confession: A Massive Update In The April Holt Case

3505.31

As I read this statement, there are simply just words. These are simply just words to everybody. This is part of a procedure for sentencing and considered to be a privilege to read a letter. You allow me to say a few last words to the courts and the murderer of my daughter. To me, this was my flesh and blood. This was not just a file for your filing cabinet like it has been treated since day one.

Murder In America

EP. 192: TENNESSEE - The Confession: A Massive Update In The April Holt Case

3528.056

This was my child. This is not just another number in the log of how many homicides happened this past year. This was the mother of my grandchildren. April Holt was a person. April Holt was a case that I pray makes an impact to the entire justice system of all the wrongs that happened in her investigation and that through these mistakes, changes are made.

Murder In America

EP. 192: TENNESSEE - The Confession: A Massive Update In The April Holt Case

3549.549

I will make it my mission as her mother to get policies and procedures changed so that no family has to endure grieving while investigating their own child's case because the system failed them and refused to listen or see the facts presented to them numerous times. When you hear the name April Holt from this point forward, hear an echo of the change that is to come.

Murder In America

EP. 192: TENNESSEE - The Confession: A Massive Update In The April Holt Case

3572.025

We all stand before God one day and take account for our actions and lack thereof. The justice system was intended to protect and serve, and I tell my grandkids that there are two justices, one on earth and one in heaven. So just know that whatever is seen or heard here is seen and heard there as well.

Murder In America

EP. 192: TENNESSEE - The Confession: A Massive Update In The April Holt Case

3594.477

And each person in uniform will stand on this side of the podium answering to a much higher calling one day.

Murder In America

EP. 192: TENNESSEE - The Confession: A Massive Update In The April Holt Case

3612.383

Now he's written Denzel and Serenity on the holidays. He'll send them like something and he'll like draw them a picture. Serenity throws it away and doesn't read it. She's like, I don't want to have anything to do with him. And Denzel reads his.

Murder In America

EP. 192: TENNESSEE - The Confession: A Massive Update In The April Holt Case

3630.197

You know, I kind of just tell the kids they're entitled to their opinions. I don't think Denzel quite gets what happened to him yet. I think it's going to take till he's older. And I think it's going to be waves of like, oh, my gosh, my dad actually sent me in there. I don't think he gets it right now. I mean, yeah. So hard to grasp. Yeah.

Murder In America

EP. 192: TENNESSEE - The Confession: A Massive Update In The April Holt Case

3651.48

So we kind of just like instead of like, we don't really bring it up much. It's kind of just when we found out about the sentencing, we told the kids and Denzel's like, well, I'm happy because my dad will be back out. And he's like, people should get second chances. I said, you don't get a second chance at killing people. Like, I'm very blunt about it. Right.

Murder In America

EP. 192: TENNESSEE - The Confession: A Massive Update In The April Holt Case

3672.694

And then Serenity is like, well, she's pissed. She's like total opposite. She's my feisty little fireball. She's like, oh no, this is unacceptable. So she's very mad. So I tried to tell them, I was like, because we have a difference of opinion in our house, because he asked me how I felt and I told him, I said, do you really want to know? And he said, yeah. And I was like, I'm mad.

Murder In America

EP. 192: TENNESSEE - The Confession: A Massive Update In The April Holt Case

3692.979

I was like, mommy's gone forever. Daddy should not get to be out in this world, just walking around. And so I did kind of like, I told him the honest truth, but I also just said in our home, we have to respect each other and what we feel. And if you're at a family function, cause my family's ticked, you know, like everybody's ticked. Our families are not okay with this, but I said,

Murder In America

EP. 192: TENNESSEE - The Confession: A Massive Update In The April Holt Case

3716.775

I told everybody don't talk about it around the kids. And if they do, the kids can walk in any room and say, can we please change the subject? Cause it makes me uncomfortable giving them a way out because it's just so much for them to process.

Murder In America

EP. 192: TENNESSEE - The Confession: A Massive Update In The April Holt Case

3740.245

Like we thought we were going to get, we put so much in it and it was, And it's so sad because it was like we put so much in it and it was like no community support. So we just redesigned it. And I now send out comfort packages to kids that lose parents. So our packages from home have like a teddy bear and a blanket and a grief book and coloring pencils and then a handwritten card.

Murder In America

EP. 192: TENNESSEE - The Confession: A Massive Update In The April Holt Case

3767.57

And then we wrap it all in gold because that was April's favorite color. And we put a gold dragonfly on it.

Murder In America

EP. 192: TENNESSEE - The Confession: A Massive Update In The April Holt Case

3773.391

and we just are sending those out for free to kids that lose a parent so um let's be happy and we've we've already sent we've already have kids that are signing up and i haven't even really posted about it yet because i wanted to have supplies i don't want to like have a bunch of kids sign up and then i don't have supplies um but it still lets us keep the non-profit open and we just feel like maybe god just had us do it in a different way

Murder In America

EP. 192: TENNESSEE - The Confession: A Massive Update In The April Holt Case

3800.249

I mean, it's, it's sad because we like the kids and me liked the grief center, but to spend that much money a month, it was like a little over 3000 a month with all the bills and to spend that. And then I'd have to go and sit there and nobody was coming in and we were just like,

Murder In America

EP. 192: TENNESSEE - The Confession: A Massive Update In The April Holt Case

3819.15

is this really beneficial for us as a family or if the community is not using it then it's not a need or nobody wants to you know to use it as a need so i was like okay well kids are 850 kids in a day lose a parent in the united states and so that's a need and i don't want any kid to feel like they don't have someone that loves them so i was like this is just our way of

Murder In America

EP. 192: TENNESSEE - The Confession: A Massive Update In The April Holt Case

3843.171

reaching out and just giving them a hug through a box.

Murder In America

EP. 192: TENNESSEE - The Confession: A Massive Update In The April Holt Case

898.604

You know, that's... And that kind of stuff is nuts.

Murder In America

EP. 192: TENNESSEE - The Confession: A Massive Update In The April Holt Case

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It just, it was just trickling out of control. And I think once you went to the boat and then you came back, I think then she had that freedom for a minute.