James Marson
Appearances
The Journal.
Why Trump Wants Ukrainian Minerals
— And the account went like this. Besant pushed a piece of paper across the table, which was a deal. A deal for Ukraine to sign away to the U.S. rights to some of its mineral resources.
The Journal.
Why Trump Wants Ukrainian Minerals
At the beginning of the war, the Biden administration didn't expect Ukraine to last long. It thought that the Russian army would very powerful, big army would quickly be able to seize Kiev and probably unseat the Ukrainian government and insert a puppet government. That didn't happen.
The Journal.
Why Trump Wants Ukrainian Minerals
The Ukrainian army, with the great help of civilians who took up arms, managed to stop the Russian army, prevent them taking Kiev, and preserve the independence, the sovereignty of their country.
The Journal.
Why Trump Wants Ukrainian Minerals
What we've seen since President Trump came to office is that the script has been flipped. We've seen an outreach to President Putin. Trump is engaging with Putin to try to reach a peace deal. And with Zelensky, instead of the support, which we've seen before, He has criticized him very, very heavily.
The Journal.
Why Trump Wants Ukrainian Minerals
And he has demanded payback for the support that has been given so far and clearly conditioned any future support on some kind of payback from the Ukrainian side.
The Journal.
Why Trump Wants Ukrainian Minerals
After this, things escalated quickly. President Trump said that Zelensky misused U.S. aid, and he criticized him strongly for not signing this minerals deal, which he'd been presented with by Secretary Besant a few days earlier.
The Journal.
Why Trump Wants Ukrainian Minerals
So Ukraine says it has Europe's largest reserves of titanium, which is used in manufacturing of aircraft and ships, and lithium, which is a key material in batteries. It's also got deposits of rare earths, which are used in high-tech industries, defense industries, renewable energy.
The Journal.
Why Trump Wants Ukrainian Minerals
— So Ukraine has got significant reserves of these rare minerals, minerals that are critical to modern and future industries, and that's why Trump is interested in them.
The Journal.
Why Trump Wants Ukrainian Minerals
So when it was clear that President Trump was going to be the Republican candidate in the presidential election, the Ukrainians were thinking of ways to make sure that the U.S., maintained its support for Ukraine, knowing that Trump is a lover of making deals.
The Journal.
Why Trump Wants Ukrainian Minerals
Zelensky took a look and said he'd discuss it with his team. Besant then pushed it closer to Zelensky and said, you really need to sign this. He then said that people back in Washington would be upset if Zelensky didn't. Zelensky took the document and he didn't commit to signing it.
The Journal.
Why Trump Wants Ukrainian Minerals
They came up with this idea of offering Ukraine's mineral wealth to President Trump and saying, look, we're grateful for the support that the U.S. has given us. We want to make sure that the U.S. is getting something back for that. And so we want to give the U.S., give U.S. companies access to these minerals as kind of a security and economic deal that will be good for both sides.
The Journal.
Why Trump Wants Ukrainian Minerals
We spoke with an aide to Zelensky who said, this level of deal, a multi-billion dollar deal, is the kind of thing that would be signed on the level of presidents. This is something that Zelensky would eventually sign with Trump. And I think that undoubtedly is one of Ukraine's goals.
The Journal.
Why Trump Wants Ukrainian Minerals
If you sign a big deal that would be a security and economic deal that Ukraine wants, then you would do it with President Trump.
The Journal.
Why Trump Wants Ukrainian Minerals
So the Ukrainians have said all along they are open to a deal. They're interested in a deal. They want to do a deal with the U.S. But they didn't like this initial proposal. They saw it as a demand for Ukrainian resources without the main thing that the Ukrainians are looking for, which is security guarantees. Zelensky said, this isn't a serious conversation. I can't sell our state.
The Journal.
Why Trump Wants Ukrainian Minerals
So he saw it as a demand that he sell the wealth of his nation without what he needs most in return, which is security guarantees.
The Journal.
Why Trump Wants Ukrainian Minerals
He repeated his earlier criticisms of what was on offer. He said any deal had to include security guarantees for Ukraine and that Trump's demands for payback for military and financial aid provided during the war far outstripped the $100 billion that the US had actually provided.
The Journal.
Why Trump Wants Ukrainian Minerals
My colleague Yaroslav Trofimov got hold of a document, some talking points that had been prepared by a Russian think tank for the Kremlin. And one of the talking points was the idea to tell the Americans, your companies will be welcome to develop rare mineral deposits in occupied Ukraine if you make a deal with us.
The Journal.
Why Trump Wants Ukrainian Minerals
I think the fact that Ukraine is not prepared to sign this deal speaks to a number of things. First of all, it would be giving away some of your most important assets. This would be terrible domestically for Zelensky. Not only would it be, in his telling, a bad deal for his country, it would be terrible domestically for Zelensky.
The Journal.
Why Trump Wants Ukrainian Minerals
He and his country have stood firm for three years against Russia, against Russia's invasion. Now there's this demand. You know, Russia demands that he gives up the country. Now Trump is demanding that he gives up an important asset of the country. So he can't come across as weak and simply capitulating.
The Journal.
Why Trump Wants Ukrainian Minerals
Does he want peace at any cost? If he wants peace at any cost, he can make a deal with Putin. He can say to Putin, take Ukraine. Now... in that case, Ukraine would continue fighting, for sure. But people in his administration have said that the Trump administration wants Ukraine to preserve its independence, its sovereignty, that he's going to carry out tough negotiations with Putin.
The Journal.
Why Trump Wants Ukrainian Minerals
And so then at some point, you're going to get into tough negotiations about how Putin sees the future of Ukraine.
The Journal.
Why Trump Wants Ukrainian Minerals
So the peace talks that are happening at the moment are between the US and Russia. Ukraine is not a part of them. Now, Trump has said that Ukraine will eventually take part in them. But you have the peace talks going on there with the US trying to get to a deal with Russia. But at the same time, you have the US negotiating with Ukraine to try to get the mineral deal.
The Journal.
Why Trump Wants Ukrainian Minerals
— What you see here is a microcosm of how Trump sees the world. We were giving this money to Ukraine for years. But Trump has come in and said, that's not how we're going to do things anymore. We need something back for that. We need something concrete back for that. For example, access to Ukrainian minerals.
The Journal.
Why Trump Wants Ukrainian Minerals
That's right. Ukraine has been one of the success stories of U.S. foreign policy, and that includes U.S. aid policy, over the last 20, 30 years. Ukraine gained its independence in 1991 from the Soviet Union and slowly, gradually became more and more pro-Western. It fought for its independence.
The Journal.
Why Trump Wants Ukrainian Minerals
Its people have carried out two revolutions to maintain its right to choose its own president and to be independent of Russian influence. The US has provided billions of dollars that has helped develop Ukraine's economy. Now we have President Trump has come in with a different attitude. Trump says we should get something back in return.
The Journal.
Why Trump Wants Ukrainian Minerals
And so that is how the minerals can play into the peace talks. Because if Trump feels he isn't getting anything from this support for Ukraine, then that support, allies, Ukrainians, worry will no longer be there, which will strengthen Putin's hand on the battlefield and therefore in talks.
WSJ What’s News
Renewed Israeli Strikes Kill Hundreds in Gaza
With Russia not showing any indication that it's ready to change, then this phone call will probably end with some diplomatic niceties and promises for more talks.
WSJ What’s News
Renewed Israeli Strikes Kill Hundreds in Gaza
Well, Vladimir Putin has been careful not to outright reject the idea of a ceasefire, but instead he set out a series of demands that are in fact little changed since the beginning of the war. Moscow wants Ukraine to be neutral, not a member of NATO, with a weakened army that isn't supplied by the West.
WSJ What’s News
Renewed Israeli Strikes Kill Hundreds in Gaza
It wants no European peacekeepers on Ukrainian soil, which has been one idea of how to make this ceasefire work. And then Russian officials have also been calling for a deal that addresses what Moscow calls the root causes of the conflict. Part of this is that it wants to retain certain provinces in the east and south of Ukraine, which it's claimed as its own territory.
WSJ What’s News
Renewed Israeli Strikes Kill Hundreds in Gaza
And it wants to be able to exert political influence over the rest of the country.
WSJ What’s News
Renewed Israeli Strikes Kill Hundreds in Gaza
Well, these kind of demands are unacceptable, certainly to Ukraine and to European allies who've been saying that a peace deal should only be struck in a way that's acceptable to Ukraine. President Zelensky has said that this series of demands from Russia just looks like a delaying tactic and that Putin doesn't want to irritate President Trump by rejecting the ceasefire proposal.
WSJ What’s News
Renewed Israeli Strikes Kill Hundreds in Gaza
but instead wants to set conditions that are unworkable. Zelensky has said several times in recent days that Ukraine is ready for an immediate ceasefire, just as President Trump has proposed, and that it's Russia that's dragging things out.
WSJ What’s News
Renewed Israeli Strikes Kill Hundreds in Gaza
Well, you can't make a deal to end the fighting without both parties agreeing to it. Ukraine has already agreed to a ceasefire as proposed by the US. So far, we haven't heard that from President Putin that he's ready to do it. Russia is pushing forward slowly on the battlefield. It's grinding down the Ukrainian army.
WSJ What’s News
Renewed Israeli Strikes Kill Hundreds in Gaza
It is destroying the Ukrainian electricity grid, which is a key Russian tactic to degrade the ability of Ukraine as a country to resist. So President Putin feels like he's winning. And so for him to agree to a ceasefire, to a peace deal, he would be expecting his conditions to be met. So he is quite prepared to play the long game and to not agree to a ceasefire until he gets what he wants.
WSJ What’s News
Renewed Israeli Strikes Kill Hundreds in Gaza
So one possible outcome is that President Trump comes away with a clear understanding of those conditions, and then tries to take those to the Ukrainians. But Zelensky has said that Ukraine won't accept territorial losses, limits on its army, political influence, because these are in fact the very things that Ukraine has been fighting for three years.
WSJ What’s News
Renewed Israeli Strikes Kill Hundreds in Gaza
So this single phone call certainly will not bring peace, because peace will only come when the Russians stop fighting.