James Mangold
Appearances
WTF with Marc Maron Podcast
Episode 1617 - James Mangold
And the kind of sensory overload. I mean, show business is such a broad word, I don't know how to address it, but if we talk about movies.
WTF with Marc Maron Podcast
Episode 1617 - James Mangold
Yes. Done. Now it's more the Wild West in terms of... Yeah, yeah.
WTF with Marc Maron Podcast
Episode 1617 - James Mangold
Yes. Do I subscribe to that? Did I cancel that? Is that part of my box thing that I turn on? Well, I mean, I've somehow managed, or I don't know if it's managed or been stubborn or stuck, but that I just make movies. And movies have a kind of very orderly way of... Yeah. Yeah. I don't even know completely how it works.
WTF with Marc Maron Podcast
Episode 1617 - James Mangold
Well, a lot of those movies also could fall under the make it yourself outside the system.
WTF with Marc Maron Podcast
Episode 1617 - James Mangold
Nein, das ist die Part, die mir am meisten erstaunlich ist, wenn man versucht, objektiv zu sein, und man sagt, okay, jetzt gibt es all diese Plattformen, um Filme und Shows zu sehen und jeden Art von Audiovisuellen Unterhaltung. Aber contrary to what you might expect, all this bandwidth doesn't somehow promote that independent films have a really hard time finding their way.
WTF with Marc Maron Podcast
Episode 1617 - James Mangold
Sure, because the bandwidth has its own... Well, it's just kind of a microcosm of the feature, what's happening in features, but it's all about the things everyone has to see and the mega things of the month or whatever.
WTF with Marc Maron Podcast
Episode 1617 - James Mangold
Well, also there was, what was the streaming network that closed about five years ago that was, you know, nothing but old films and now kind of Criterion has picked up that.
WTF with Marc Maron Podcast
Episode 1617 - James Mangold
It was part of, they were using the Turner Library and I think what ended up Ja, genau. Man muss schauen. Why is it that you can't? And that the claim is you can kind of see any kind of film at any time. The truth is it's really hard to find old films, particularly, you know, Criterion has a thing where they kind of have a rotating schedule. And that's heavily curated.
WTF with Marc Maron Podcast
Episode 1617 - James Mangold
Yes, because I think it's a money issue. They can only afford to license so much. That's right.
WTF with Marc Maron Podcast
Episode 1617 - James Mangold
No, but I don't. My thing is not that I... I feel like it's purely a kind of... These are the must-watch movies or the canonical films, but that it's just... It just gets you out of the current fashion. Well, what do you go back to, like movie-wise? Oh, everything. I mean, you could... I could talk and wax about Golden Age Hollywood movies.
WTF with Marc Maron Podcast
Episode 1617 - James Mangold
Wait, I mean, you remade 310 to Yuma, so that must have had an impact. Well, the original had an impact. Yeah, yeah. And that was... The Western has had a huge impact on me in terms of just how the beauty of the... Well, I guess I'd have to back up. Movies are inherently simple. Although there's a real high density of information, visual and audio, coming at you that...
WTF with Marc Maron Podcast
Episode 1617 - James Mangold
In order to preserve what I love in movies, which is kind of the spaces between things, the spaces between people, the behavior, images, you can't... Plot is the enemy of... Poetry? Of lyricism, yes. So they're at war with each other as you make a movie. And so what's interesting is you construct...
WTF with Marc Maron Podcast
Episode 1617 - James Mangold
ein Film von der Grundlage her, ist, dass man eine Entscheidung machen muss, wie verschlüsselt das Ding sein wird mit, sagen wir mal, Plot. Und Westerns sind so... Sie teilen das mit Noir-Filmen und Samurai-Filmen. Ich denke, es gibt eine Art einfaches Universum. Das bedeutet nicht einfach. Ich meine nicht einfach-meinend. Und ich meine nicht einfach thematisch oder charakterweise.
WTF with Marc Maron Podcast
Episode 1617 - James Mangold
but just less elaborate plot-wise. And that what happens with the vacuum that's created in a narrative when the story can be told, you know, I'm a struggling rancher and I get the chance for 300 bucks to escort... Ja. Ja. Right and wrong. Self-worth. Self-worth. How much am I willing to sacrifice for the public good? Yeah, yeah. For morality. And is that really it?
WTF with Marc Maron Podcast
Episode 1617 - James Mangold
But the reason I could in 12 seconds or less already have gotten to the themes that, for instance, Christian's character or Van Heflins in the original struggle with is because the story is simple. Yeah. And I don't mean, again, simple dumb. I mean simple like it's not cluttered.
WTF with Marc Maron Podcast
Episode 1617 - James Mangold
Ja, ich sehe fast alles komplett unbekannt. Ich sehe, der Western ist ein Prism, durch den ich fühle, dass es mir hilft, Yeah, those aren't really... Those aren't really it. It's this, because there is, you know, Yojimbo is a Western. There's no six guns. It's usually about a guy.
WTF with Marc Maron Podcast
Episode 1617 - James Mangold
It's about a guy, but it's also just about actually, usually an incredibly complex existential or philosophical issue this person is faced with, which runs almost counter to the perception of Westerns as kind of shoot them up or surface.
WTF with Marc Maron Podcast
Episode 1617 - James Mangold
Well, it's kind of a, it's a very 70s Western in the sense that it's starting to take kind of modern ideas of who am I, what does life mean and drop them into the context of this kind of Aber ich denke, wenn du darüber nachdenkst, dann meine ich, dass Gary Cooper mit What Does Life Mean in High Noon kämpft. Van Heflin kämpft mit What Does Life Mean in the original 310 Ayuma.
WTF with Marc Maron Podcast
Episode 1617 - James Mangold
Und ich hoffe, Christian ist in der Version, die ich gemacht habe. Aber diese Fragen, die Schönheit von What Am I, How Do I Fit In? Part of what makes the Western beautiful is the barren aspect of the landscape. And again, I don't mean just visually, I mean the absence of infrastructure means also the absence of plot complexity that is more spaghetti.
WTF with Marc Maron Podcast
Episode 1617 - James Mangold
Ich meine, ich weiß, ich habe einfach geliebt. Ich meine, mein erster Film, Heavy, wurde wirklich von der Arbeit von Yasujiro Ozu beeinflusst, der nie einen Western gemacht hat, aber Charaktere-Storys mit einer Art von... I mean precision or focus on performance, but also on the visual. Meaning that to me there's kind of a world of performance-oriented movies where the machinery of...
WTF with Marc Maron Podcast
Episode 1617 - James Mangold
Ich liebe Filme, Cassavetes. Es gibt Filme wie diese, die einfach sagen, was auch immer passiert, schießt es, folgt es. Das war nie persönlich so. Ja, genau.
WTF with Marc Maron Podcast
Episode 1617 - James Mangold
und dass manchmal, ich denke immer, dass der Trick, den du inszenierst, und ich habe darüber nachgedacht, ich denke sicherlich darüber nach, wenn ich Filme über Musiker mache, und ich kann dir sagen, warum in einem Moment, aber dieser Aspekt, dass man etwas recordiert, das interessant ist, versus die Kamera, die investigiert, frame und in etwas teilnimmt, das ich immer noch hoffe, dass es so ungewöhnlich ist,
WTF with Marc Maron Podcast
Episode 1617 - James Mangold
or improvisational or unpredictable if I were just chasing actors with cameras. But I don't want to chase actors with cameras. I want it also to feel like there's this harmony or this kind of sense that the filmmaker knows what they're doing, but at the same time there's a kind of herd of cats spontaneity to what's going on at the same time.
WTF with Marc Maron Podcast
Episode 1617 - James Mangold
I think the most tricky thing, when I teach, when I've done Sundance or film schools or whatever, and when I talk to younger directors, the most important thing is, Directing is kind of terrifying, particularly for young directors, because you make a plan, and you might have thought about this plan for years, maybe a decade. You've got this in your head, right?
WTF with Marc Maron Podcast
Episode 1617 - James Mangold
You've written it, you've rewritten it, you've got notes, you've been told no, you go back, you write it again, you do storyboards, you think, you see a movie, you revise, you have this plan. And you're alone, essentially, with your plan. And then suddenly...
WTF with Marc Maron Podcast
Episode 1617 - James Mangold
in prep the chaos begins and then you land on this set and now you have all these collaborators and if you're holding too tight to the plan um Okay. Wow, I saw this whole scene in this building looking this way, but the sun's breaking through the windows on this morning that way, and it's stunning and evocative. But if I do that, my storyboards are out the window. Fear, panic, loathing.
WTF with Marc Maron Podcast
Episode 1617 - James Mangold
I have to lead this whole group of 150 people. And now I don't have my fucking map anymore. Or my actor comes up with an idea, and I had it all built upon this player staying at the bar, while this player... Right, yeah, yeah. Man kann das als eine Art Mutiny betrachten. Manchmal fühlt es sich so an, als hätte man geplant, mit den Fingern zu fallen, durch all diese Spezialordnungen.
WTF with Marc Maron Podcast
Episode 1617 - James Mangold
Kann ich das mit Soja machen? Und plötzlich weißt du nicht mehr, wie du deinen Kaffeeshop runtern kannst. Aber ich denke, es gibt noch einen anderen Weg, um zu denken über Direktivität. Du machst deinen Plan. And then you look at your plan and you go, what is the plan? Beyond the specifics. Oh, I see. I want a hinge. I want Mark sitting here so I can hinge off his looks to the other characters.
WTF with Marc Maron Podcast
Episode 1617 - James Mangold
I want to be in his point of view. And the other characters exist at a distance. This one you'll see through the food slot in the kitchen. And this one you'll see pulling in through the window. So now, how do you take that plan? And I turn to you on the set and I go, I get you don't want to sit at the bar, Mark. Yeah. Yeah.
WTF with Marc Maron Podcast
Episode 1617 - James Mangold
That's the moment that you identify architecturally what you need without being a slave to the exact blueprint you drew in a vacuum before you got there. And someone like you, I'll bet, and now you can tell me, if I say that to you, that seems reasonable. Right, I'm not going to be like, well, I still don't know why I'm sitting here.
WTF with Marc Maron Podcast
Episode 1617 - James Mangold
No, but you can sit somewhere else, meaning it now becomes our shared problem to go, where can we put you that you can solve your problems and I can still have my plan.
WTF with Marc Maron Podcast
Episode 1617 - James Mangold
Without losing your North Star, without losing your map, meaning you still want to drive to Glendale. Yeah. I may be going a different way, but I need to... And you can't let your actors or your DP or anyone subvert the fact that you need to get to Glendale. So that's where I think it's hardest for a young director not to panic, because the cacophony of ideas on a set...
WTF with Marc Maron Podcast
Episode 1617 - James Mangold
And you've been convinced that it's practical and it's what we should do. But for me it's always being able to identify what the North Star, what is the movie about. Because I find that I've never met a DP or an actor who won't respond to and even make themselves an ally to carrying your largest purpose forward.
WTF with Marc Maron Podcast
Episode 1617 - James Mangold
Doesn't feel right. The other thing to do sometimes I do is I actually ask my actor to step off their mark and I try and do what I'm asking them to do. And I suddenly realize, oh, this is awkward. Awkward, yeah. And because you can suddenly sense, why am I having them turn 180 degrees and their drink is on this side and da, da, da.
WTF with Marc Maron Podcast
Episode 1617 - James Mangold
And it's like, who would sit like this when this person is over there? Und du merkst, das ist alles die Arbeit, die ich gemacht habe. But there's another thing that even happens, which is you get on set and you put your sketches into action and you line them up.
WTF with Marc Maron Podcast
Episode 1617 - James Mangold
And you actually, if your eyes are open as a photographer or as an eye, that these aren't the best shots for this scene as it exists with these faces in this light. But that part of the reason we cling to this is that there's this kind of... Ich habe es wahrscheinlich vor allem von Hitchcock erschaffen. Es gibt eine Art regnerische Idee, Ja. Ja. entirely as kind of a brain in a jar that talks.
WTF with Marc Maron Podcast
Episode 1617 - James Mangold
And my main responsibility is to evangelize, you could call it vision, but it's not necessarily every shot exactly like this. It's what is the broader agenda of Um es spezifisch zu machen, habe ich diesen Film 20 Jahre hergestellt mit Joaquin Phoenix und Reese Witherspoon, Johnny Cash.
WTF with Marc Maron Podcast
Episode 1617 - James Mangold
Und was mir so interessant war über ihre Geschichte und besonders seine, war, wie sie die Geschichte primär von zwei Menschen, die verliebt sind, erzählt haben. Aber was für mich so interessant war, spaziell, filmisch, wie auch immer man es beschreiben möchte, war, dass sie auf der Bühne verliebt wurden. Und das ist schon eine Art Kontradiktion. Liebe ist fast definiert von Intimität.
WTF with Marc Maron Podcast
Episode 1617 - James Mangold
Aber der Stage ist definiert von massiven Ausdrucken. Aber gleichzeitig kennt jeder, der auf einem Stage arbeitet, dass es eine Art Intimität gibt. Verheißen. Ja. Wenn du mit jemandem auf dem Stage bist, hast du eine Art Verbindung mit ihnen, die extrem ist. Und fokussiert. Yes, and that the people in the audience in a way vanish or they're omnipresent as witnesses to this kind of intimacy.
WTF with Marc Maron Podcast
Episode 1617 - James Mangold
This makes sense, right? Okay, so that became this really interesting place where I go, I haven't seen that in a movie at least. And it's really interesting to me, this aspect of two people, partly because they were married to others and partly because they...
WTF with Marc Maron Podcast
Episode 1617 - James Mangold
met and kind of vibed on stage, fall in love literally in front of 10,000 people every night and then have to kind of fold up their love relationship and return to their other domestic lives only to return to this relationship. It's like it's for two, three hours a day they connect and that it ultimately in real life ended up with Johnny Cash proposing to zu June Carter auf der Bühne.
WTF with Marc Maron Podcast
Episode 1617 - James Mangold
It occurred to me that to try... Because this is how I feel about my job. My job is to somehow photograph this unspoken thing we're just talking about. This kind of contradictory to normal logic. This intimacy that runs contradictory to normal logic. Which is that intimacy means alone. But in this case it's the opposite. It's under the gaze of 10,000. So... but yet intimate.
WTF with Marc Maron Podcast
Episode 1617 - James Mangold
So that becomes a really interesting thing to try to photograph because it's, first of all, triangles, threes, it's always more, one to one is kind of a ping pong match, but the second that audience is involved, the thing becomes Und gefällt. and felt by others, judged by others, or even misperceived or missed.
WTF with Marc Maron Podcast
Episode 1617 - James Mangold
Some of it, you know, a very cinematic thing is something the two people know is going on that none of them know is going on.
WTF with Marc Maron Podcast
Episode 1617 - James Mangold
So how do you translate all the things we're talking about right now into a visual plan that isn't necessarily shot to shot like drawn out, but I mean I did bored, but only to kind of try and solve this question for myself. What it occurred to me was that every concert film we ever see
WTF with Marc Maron Podcast
Episode 1617 - James Mangold
Most of the cameras exist for a variety of logistical and aesthetic reasons in kind of the premium seat, if you will.
WTF with Marc Maron Podcast
Episode 1617 - James Mangold
From the audience's point of view, from like third, fourth row center or tracking back and forth from that row or whatever it is, kind of capturing how a comedy special would be shot. Sure.
WTF with Marc Maron Podcast
Episode 1617 - James Mangold
Aber die Grund, warum du es nicht mit der Kamera schießen würdest, wie du es machst, die Grund, warum du eine Kamera nicht auf deiner Schulter schießen würdest, die auf deiner Schulter schaut, als du sie trinkst und deine Noten schaust, ist, weil es, naja, das könnte cool sein. Ich mag es.
WTF with Marc Maron Podcast
Episode 1617 - James Mangold
Aber die Wahrheit ist, dass die Grund, warum Leute es nicht machen, ist, dass es eine Ausbrechung der defaulten Idee ist. Hier kommen wir zum Rekordieren versus Erzählen. What most people do in a comedy special or a stage show is record the concert event. They don't invade it with cameras to where the cameras would have to make themselves visible to the other cameras.
WTF with Marc Maron Podcast
Episode 1617 - James Mangold
There's a kind of technical distance that everyone maintains with longer lenses so that everyone can kind of, all the cameras and stuff can exist without being omnipresent in the other shots. When you make a movie, you're not doing that. So I'm thinking, how do I... in diese Arena, in diese Bubble, in diese intime Bubble auf der Bühne, wo du mit den Performerinnen bist.
WTF with Marc Maron Podcast
Episode 1617 - James Mangold
Und so, wie wird das übersetzt? Also, als ich das Film 20 Jahre ago scoutete, brachten die Location Scouts mich zu all diesen Theatern in Tennis, du weißt, alten Theatern, wo wir ein Konzert machen würden, ein Konzert oder ein anderes. Und sie zeigen mir, wie es aus dem Publikum aussieht.
WTF with Marc Maron Podcast
Episode 1617 - James Mangold
Und ich wäre instinktuell, ich würde sagen, du weißt, ich interessiere mich nicht wirklich, wie es aus dem Publikum aussieht. Ja. Ja. Ja. Ja. Ja. die Tänkung erzeugen, weil die Publikation unbewusst ist, was los ist und was gerade in den Wänden passiert. Oder wer in den Wänden schaut, den die Publikation nicht sehen kann. Jetzt habe ich all diese leckere, cinematische Scheiße.
WTF with Marc Maron Podcast
Episode 1617 - James Mangold
Ich habe, wer im Hintergrund ist, wer schaut, was zwischen ihnen auf der Bühne geht. Wie viel weiß die Publikation, was sie auf der Bühne fühlen? Es ist viel mehr verpackt. als wenn ich im Leben eine Art Disney-Hall der Präsidenten-Rechreation eines berühmten Konzerts sehe.
WTF with Marc Maron Podcast
Episode 1617 - James Mangold
Yes, meaning I was building off of a confidence I had. I mean, on many levels, like encouraging the cast to sing themselves, all of that, because I had all the same people on this movie going, what if he can't do it? What if he can't sing it? What if he can't play it? And I'd be like, well, you're never going to find out if you don't try.
WTF with Marc Maron Podcast
Episode 1617 - James Mangold
So, you know, they're going to figure it out. Yes, well, that's the point. It's like I'm like a coach of a major team and I have to expect my players to reach high, right? That's kind of the whole point is lowering the bar when you have the best players. It would be raising it to where they're uncomfortable and have a challenge.
WTF with Marc Maron Podcast
Episode 1617 - James Mangold
But the point I was making about directing to whatever degree it's interesting is that So that whole philosophy doesn't translate into an exactitude about where I'm going to be, the shots I must have. Sometimes there are those. But that strategy is a strategy that converts well to an actor's mind. Yeah.
WTF with Marc Maron Podcast
Episode 1617 - James Mangold
To my DP's mind, meaning they understand what I'm trying to say with the camera and its relationship with the actors. And the actors understand, oh, I know how I can mine shit out of that. If the camera's here, you're going to see stuff you'd never see if you're frontal on me at the mic. So you got to stay open a little bit. You got to stay open a little bit, but I never let go of that idea.
WTF with Marc Maron Podcast
Episode 1617 - James Mangold
And that idea translates into a kind of visual game plan that then hopefully gets you both the mess of live performance or what you feel like is something where it hasn't been worked out to the T. There's a kind of beautiful random blossoming to the acting, but also it's in a beautiful frame that's correct or right or feels right for that moment. That's kind of
WTF with Marc Maron Podcast
Episode 1617 - James Mangold
The difference that's interesting to me... between a complete unknown and Walk the Line is at another narrative level, which is that Walk the Line is really a story of... It's a love story, but it's also a story of addiction and psychological trauma. And in that way, the narrative fits in a fairly well-established... Ja. Ja.
WTF with Marc Maron Podcast
Episode 1617 - James Mangold
Und dann kommt die klassische Ordentliche, Goodwill-Hunting-Walk-the-Line-Sequenz, wo der Charakter die Dämonen konfrontiert, die sie verletzen. Und indem er ihren Namen spricht, eklipsiert er sie in einem Sinne oder anderem. Oder er bekommt Kontrolle über die Dinge, über die er keine Kontrolle hatte. Eine wunderschöne Geschichte und eine, die ich glaube, nie müde werden wird.
WTF with Marc Maron Podcast
Episode 1617 - James Mangold
Es ist eine Teil der menschlichen Leben. Aber ich fühlte nicht, dass in Bezug auf das Schreiben und Direktieren eines Films über Dylan... Es ist wie das Gegenteil. Ich fühlte nicht, naja, zuerst dachte ich mir, was, wenn er kein Geheimnis hat? Ich habe diese Szene geschrieben in Girl Interrupted, vor einem langen Zeitpunkt. I made that takes place in a mental institution.
WTF with Marc Maron Podcast
Episode 1617 - James Mangold
It was a scene that ended up being played by Angelina Jolie and Winona Ryder. And I just thought of this, that in that scene... Angie's character confronts Winona's character, who's new at the mental institution. And it's an hour after her first therapy at the institution.
WTF with Marc Maron Podcast
Episode 1617 - James Mangold
And I'm paraphrasing, because I don't remember it exactly, but Angie says something to Winona like, so did you cough up a big one? And Winona's kind of confused by this, and she goes, a secret. Did you tell them your secret? And Und Winonnas Charakter sagt etwas wie, ich verstehe es nicht. Und Angies Charakter sagt, du musst ein Geheimnis aufrufen, sonst lassen sie dich nicht raus.
WTF with Marc Maron Podcast
Episode 1617 - James Mangold
Wenn du ein Geheimnis aufrufst, denken sie, dass du es verabschiedet hast. Das ist das, was ich beschreibe. Das Selbstbewusstsein. Das Psychologische Geschäft ist fast auf dem selben Narrativ gebaut. Oder zumindest das war es, was ich dargestellt habe. Und Winonnas Charakter sagt, was, wenn du kein Geheimnis hast? And I think Angie's response is something more than you're fucked.
WTF with Marc Maron Podcast
Episode 1617 - James Mangold
But that's always been interesting to me. Like, yes, it's very convenient and manageable in a dramatic narrative to kind of isolate the trauma of someone's life. And then kind of... navigate their journey to kind of getting in grips with it. But what if the trauma is either A or the burden or the load they're carrying as a character?
WTF with Marc Maron Podcast
Episode 1617 - James Mangold
What if it's complex to the point that it can't be reduced to one specific or kind of one kind of Hazing or torture or trauma. What if it's more of an equation? Or what if it isn't even, what if, I mean, this is a lot of what 70s and 80s Psycho, what if it's chemical? What if it isn't even trauma at all? What if it's a kind of, your burden is who you are and how you're wired.
WTF with Marc Maron Podcast
Episode 1617 - James Mangold
And the narrative has had a struggle kind of telling stories like that because it defeats, in a way, we have a very, or a kind of Aristotelian desire for kind of the simple thing that's going to get revealed. For a story's point of view, that there's something from the past that's impacting the present and the second they solve the shit from the past, the present opens. But
WTF with Marc Maron Podcast
Episode 1617 - James Mangold
As I began working, both talking to Dylan and writing and researching, it kept occurring to me that either, what if what's unusual about him is more hardwired than trauma-inspired?
WTF with Marc Maron Podcast
Episode 1617 - James Mangold
Ja, es ist so interessant, weil ich... Teil davon ist, wenn du über jemanden schreibst und du sie kennst und mit ihnen spielst und sie sind sehr freundlich und enthussiastisch und du auch in einer Art und Weise, natürlich, ich gehe auf einen tiefen Dive in sein Werk, mache ein Film wie dieses und du...
WTF with Marc Maron Podcast
Episode 1617 - James Mangold
die von der Größe, der Macht und der prolifizierten Art ihres Werks entdeckt werden, beginnst du, sehr empathisch zu ihnen zu werden. In dem Sinne, dass die einfachen Adjektive, die in den TV-Guide-Versionen beschrieben werden, enigmatisch, mysteriös, ehrgeizig, schwierig, zu einfach werden.
WTF with Marc Maron Podcast
Episode 1617 - James Mangold
Well, I don't mean empathic like I don't have objectivity to see when he's an asshole.
WTF with Marc Maron Podcast
Episode 1617 - James Mangold
It just kind of happened. It was exciting. But at first what I did creatively on the screenplay level was make this kind of mandate to myself that I wasn't going to do the kind of story we were just discussing for Walk the Line, the kind of classic trauma.
WTF with Marc Maron Podcast
Episode 1617 - James Mangold
Of course. Ja, natürlich. Aber das wird vollständig kommen, weil ich glaube, dass es ein Trauma gibt. Es ist ein bisschen interessant, aber lasst mich da hin. Einer meiner großen Lehrer war Milos Forman, der den Film aus Peter Schäfers großartigen Spiel Amadeus gemacht hat. Ja, genau.
WTF with Marc Maron Podcast
Episode 1617 - James Mangold
I found that strategy to be really inspiring for tackling Dylan's story, particularly for these years, because I felt like it freed me, at least in the beginning of the writing, from having to diagnose him, as opposed to viewing him as a kind of... Ja, ja, ja. Aber nicht paralysierend.
WTF with Marc Maron Podcast
Episode 1617 - James Mangold
Nein, ich denke, es war mehr, ich denke, es war so viel, dass es auch Menschen gab, die mit Dylan oder Mozart verliebt waren für ihren Talent. Oder es forcete sie, sich Fragen über sich selbst oder ihre eigene Arbeit zu stellen. All das wurde mir wirklich reif und wirklich interessant.
WTF with Marc Maron Podcast
Episode 1617 - James Mangold
Und mein erster Schritt auf dem Skript war, und das ist so, wie ich Dylan getroffen habe, war, dass ich wirklich in die Joan und Suze Rotolo und Albert Grossman und natürlich Pete Seeger, weil ich dachte, dass es so viel dramatische Früchte in diesen Charakteren gibt.
WTF with Marc Maron Podcast
Episode 1617 - James Mangold
Wirklich. Ja. And I was like, I don't know how to do that. I don't know how to make a movie that's just about the music. And COVID hit and kind of killed the movie for the near term anyway.
WTF with Marc Maron Podcast
Episode 1617 - James Mangold
That was always the arc. There was always the arc, but the anticipation, like the book, Elijah Wald's book, doesn't really delve into the personal. But to put the book... into film form without that other stuff to me would have been a crime. It would have removed the music from all context. It would have taken the heart out of the movie. Well, at least as I saw it.
WTF with Marc Maron Podcast
Episode 1617 - James Mangold
So we were at a kind of moment of tension or impasse and then COVID hit and in a sense made it irrelevant. And then about two months into COVID, this is 2020, I get a call from Bob's manager who goes, well, you know, Bob's tour was cancelled. I'm like, okay. And he goes, so he asked to read the script. And I go, okay. And he goes, and he likes it.
WTF with Marc Maron Podcast
Episode 1617 - James Mangold
And so suddenly the team, Team Bob, had completely changed because Bob was at a different point of view than what they had anticipated. And he goes, and he'd like to meet you. So then that became a series of meetings with Dylan where We discussed the script and his life and this period and a million other things.
WTF with Marc Maron Podcast
Episode 1617 - James Mangold
But the point being that I suddenly had license to go to places that his team had said I couldn't.
WTF with Marc Maron Podcast
Episode 1617 - James Mangold
Yes, but then I got the in-person version. Sure. And I got to ask the questions directly about all the figures in the movie and about his feelings about that time.
WTF with Marc Maron Podcast
Episode 1617 - James Mangold
No, I mean, Von Ronk didn't figure so heavily in this narrative. He's like in the movie for a second. Yes, but like Seger. I mean, we talked about all of them. Seger and Baez and certainly Suze, who is called Sylvie in the movie. And Guthrie. And Guthrie and all of that. But also him. What I wanted to know is, what he doesn't talk about much is, and how did that feel? What did that feel like?
WTF with Marc Maron Podcast
Episode 1617 - James Mangold
What do you remember about what that felt like? And you could get that out of him? He wasn't resistant at all. He wasn't... I didn't find... I mean, my... vier oder fünf Beratungen mit ihm, die stundenlang dauerten, fühlte ich mich nicht so, als wäre ich derjenige, der es wahrscheinlich auslösen würde. Es gab einen Punkt, an dem ich fühlte, dass er nie gesagt hätte, wir sind fertig.
WTF with Marc Maron Podcast
Episode 1617 - James Mangold
Es gab niemanden, der aufgab. Es gab niemanden, der aufhörte. Es gab niemanden, der kontrollierte. Wir waren zwei in einem leeren Kaffeeshop für Stunden am Ende.
WTF with Marc Maron Podcast
Episode 1617 - James Mangold
No. Well, of course, there's something to lose in the sense that this is going to be a large scale, high profile.
WTF with Marc Maron Podcast
Episode 1617 - James Mangold
No, I think he has enough distance that he's comfortable talking about them. But I also think he... He was also honest in what he doesn't know. I mean, he really, even as of 2020, when I was talking to him about this, didn't really understand why everyone freaked out so much and why, meaning there was a level... At the time.
WTF with Marc Maron Podcast
Episode 1617 - James Mangold
Yes, which you could say is disingenuous with historical perspective looking back. Right. But when you transport yourself, as I had with the research, into that moment, you're kind of... It does occur to you that... There's a whole series of interpersonal bargains and agreements and commitments that have been made and set in place between these characters that would make Bob confused.
WTF with Marc Maron Podcast
Episode 1617 - James Mangold
For instance, Bob never promised not to play rock and roll. He never, I mean, one thing he was very clear to me about was that he never, the way we each imagine our careers when we're 18, 19 years old, he never imagined himself as being The musician he imagined in his mind's eye was, sure, Woody Guthrie, but also Buddy Holly. Sure, Pete Seeger, but also Little Richard.
WTF with Marc Maron Podcast
Episode 1617 - James Mangold
He carried all of that in his mind on his way to New York. So the idea from the moment he took the stage at Gertie's Folk City or the Gaslight, that he had... According to some kind of dogma or tribunal kind of pledge... Folk dogma. Yeah, that he had pledged to never make something different in his life was completely bizarre to him.
WTF with Marc Maron Podcast
Episode 1617 - James Mangold
And he would never... I mean, and he had never made such a commitment in his mind. His point of view about his ascendance as a folk star in a solo act was that that's what happened. And therefore, of course... I had no money and no notoriety. And so I took what happened.
WTF with Marc Maron Podcast
Episode 1617 - James Mangold
He had the beauty of total singularity. Yes.
WTF with Marc Maron Podcast
Episode 1617 - James Mangold
Eine der schönsten und ehrlichsten Dinge, die er mir in diesen Sessionen erzählt hat, war, dass er die Grundlage dafür brauchte, Musik mit einer Band zu machen, weil er sich traurig fühlte. Right. I'm in a kind of loneliness, I'm sure you understand.
WTF with Marc Maron Podcast
Episode 1617 - James Mangold
Yes. He described it. He said, you're alone in the car on the way to the show, you're alone on the stage in the spotlight, you're alone when it ends, and you're alone when you're writing the material. And that at some point he was looking at some people he admired, and Johnny Cash... Richard, The Beatles, none of them were alone.
WTF with Marc Maron Podcast
Episode 1617 - James Mangold
And that I thought this married to something else going on for him at the same time, which was that all the relationships he did have in the folk community with his ascendance to this kind of megastar level had become quite transactional or at least tainted with transactionality, meaning everyone had an agenda, they needed him to appear here. And also politics within the community. Of course.
WTF with Marc Maron Podcast
Episode 1617 - James Mangold
So he felt suddenly not only alone as an act, but also alone in the community. Because as the center post holding up the whole tent at that point, I think there was a tremendous amount of pressure and a tremendous amount of agenda laid upon him. Ja, ja. Ja.
WTF with Marc Maron Podcast
Episode 1617 - James Mangold
Und deshalb kam diese Bewegung nach Elektrik und einer Band nicht von jemandem, der sagt, ich werde die Kultur verändern, ich werde heute kulturelle Geschichte machen. Und mehr so... I saw Newport as the script took shape and these conversations took shape as a kind of Thanksgiving dinner run amok in a family that had been living with some tightly held beliefs.
WTF with Marc Maron Podcast
Episode 1617 - James Mangold
And the prodigal son wasn't going to live with them anymore. He couldn't. He had to break from dad, break from sister, break from everyone. This was the night he gave the big angry speech at Thanksgiving and got in the car and drove off. dass es die Geschichte gemacht hat, war eine wunderschöne und interessante zusätzliche Überzeugung.
WTF with Marc Maron Podcast
Episode 1617 - James Mangold
Aber um es dramatisch zu machen und den Schauspielern zu helfen, es zu leben, habe ich mich gefühlt, dass das Wunder, das von Dylan selbst kommt, mit dem Sinn der extrem persönlichen Gefühle, die all das für alle führten, How uncomfortable for Pete Seeger that he's this... Seeger and Dylan are such different artists, which is so interesting to evaluate.
WTF with Marc Maron Podcast
Episode 1617 - James Mangold
Seeger probably wrote a handful of songs in his whole life where Dylan has written over 600, 700 songs of humongous importance to the culture and hits. What is the difference? Seegers focus was building a movement, was changing the world.
WTF with Marc Maron Podcast
Episode 1617 - James Mangold
Thank God for the beatniks. Right. And that the... So, you almost have them destined for a kind of conflict from the moment they're bound together because to Pete, Bob is not just an incredibly talented artist, but an instrument for elevating the movement and advancing the movement.
WTF with Marc Maron Podcast
Episode 1617 - James Mangold
To Bob, Pete is a stage and a platform for which to get started in this world as an artist and to find an audience and to find a community. But the... The goals, the agendas of each character were never alike. And Joan, to one degree or another, was very much bought into the folk dogma. Many of the artists, most of the arguments and discussions were, what is folk, what isn't folk?
WTF with Marc Maron Podcast
Episode 1617 - James Mangold
Some more so than others, maybe. Or maybe what drives them is essentially more internal than others.
WTF with Marc Maron Podcast
Episode 1617 - James Mangold
But I don't necessarily see that as arrogance. No, no. That's kind of like any one of us. Sure. I don't, I identify in my own humble way with it. I've made movies of a lot of different genre. I've made independent Sundance films. I've made gigantic studio pictures. Yeah. From where I sit, the experience is awfully similar.
WTF with Marc Maron Podcast
Episode 1617 - James Mangold
I'm not sure if you find it that different, but you essentially have to get in a space with a camera, make a scene seem real. The core tasks at hand don't change much.
WTF with Marc Maron Podcast
Episode 1617 - James Mangold
So what was so intriguing to me about the story of this period for Dylan and why I thought, because I didn't want to make, I'm not, I wasn't such a Bob Dylan superfan that I was like driven to make a Bob Dylan movie. Well, that's helpful.
WTF with Marc Maron Podcast
Episode 1617 - James Mangold
Well, it will screw you up, yes. And what you always want to do, like I was describing about Walk the Line, is how does the movie eclipse the kind of the recreation of history and characters to be about something bigger than just, I mean, obviously audiences and press are going to describe this movie as the Bob Dylan story, they're going to describe the other one as a, but...
WTF with Marc Maron Podcast
Episode 1617 - James Mangold
If the movie is going to have any kind of transcendence, it's got to be about something more than just an historical recreation of scenes from this artist's life. Well, yeah, you found the story. And the story in this case is not about all this stuff is interesting in the folk dogma and the community versus the self and all.
WTF with Marc Maron Podcast
Episode 1617 - James Mangold
But where it gets interesting is when it starts to become not about Bob and about, well, what is an artist's duty? Are you part of a movement or are you listening to your own voice?
WTF with Marc Maron Podcast
Episode 1617 - James Mangold
But even more importantly, and this is where I try and get full circle with what we were talking about earlier, when I was saying Bob didn't have a kind of visible or obvious trauma that I could see, it did start to occur to me that there was one, which was
WTF with Marc Maron Podcast
Episode 1617 - James Mangold
genius itself or or let's call it intense talent yeah because the word genius is so creates sure uh reaction is so polar but let's just say someone who is intensely talented who's touched someone Which you have to see Dylan as, given the... Yeah, it's a rare thing. You can't not see it. Even he doesn't know where the songs were coming from.
WTF with Marc Maron Podcast
Episode 1617 - James Mangold
And the honesty of it is beautiful. And... But that in itself could be a kind of trauma, meaning that, let me... Certainly in terms of loneliness. Yes, right on. It separates him from everybody else. It means that he's tuned into a station that no one else is hearing. And it means that as he's living his life, part of his brain is tuned into that thing and part of him is present with them.
WTF with Marc Maron Podcast
Episode 1617 - James Mangold
Trying to be present. Trying to be present. And the struggle becomes a kind of how do I nurture myself Und es ist immer präsent. Und ich würde mir vorstellen, in deiner Interpretation, ich würde es wahrscheinlich konsumieren.
WTF with Marc Maron Podcast
Episode 1617 - James Mangold
Yes, and also gives him the most pleasure, meaning that as success drives forward and most relationships become transactional and people want shit from him, what is the purest place he can retreat? And this is something any artist can identify with, that solitude with your voice, in his case a voice that Das ist so akut und so intensiv, so ein Lichterbruch in diesem Moment.
WTF with Marc Maron Podcast
Episode 1617 - James Mangold
Die Arbeit kommt so schnell. Wie erfreulich es ist, ein Wessel zu sein, mit dem Art von Elektrizität, die durch dich läuft. Wie könntest du nicht in das zurückkehren? Und wie navigiert man dann, wundervoll und präsent in der Welt zu sein, mit deinen Freunden und Lieben und Business-Kompassionen und so weiter. Und auch in das Ding eingeladen, das sie nicht haben.
WTF with Marc Maron Podcast
Episode 1617 - James Mangold
But even worse, some of them resent or to them feels like hokum or a mystery or it doesn't even exist. Trying to put you in a box. And that to me became, let's not call it a trauma, but a problem the character had to navigate.
WTF with Marc Maron Podcast
Episode 1617 - James Mangold
And one thing Timothy and I talked a lot about was how... Because, you know, it's hard to tell an actor to play a condition. Arrogance. Aloof. There is no such thing as aloof if you're playing it as an actor. Meaning, no one is aloof. Where is the aloof? Where are you? Meaning, you have to be somewhere else. But to play that, you need to identify, where are you that isn't here? And...
WTF with Marc Maron Podcast
Episode 1617 - James Mangold
That became what I just described became for Timothy and I at least one kind of tool to help him maintain a secondary active brain life and emotional life in every scene that in a sense was leaving everyone else out. So you explained to him... We talked a lot about it.
WTF with Marc Maron Podcast
Episode 1617 - James Mangold
But it's also, I don't view myself, Timmy was also doing, we did, I mean, he was with me on this for almost five and a half years of work.
WTF with Marc Maron Podcast
Episode 1617 - James Mangold
He was, in learning the music, in entering Bob through the music, which is largely what he did, I think he was encountering from his own end, I mean, I was telling him all I had learned from Dylan and all I was observing, but I think he was absorbing on his own end a kind of,
WTF with Marc Maron Podcast
Episode 1617 - James Mangold
similar observation which is these streams of thought and music could only come to someone what that only comes to him between like he's nine to five punches a clock and and you know it's it's when it comes it comes and you gotta you gotta write it down and it doesn't matter if you're in your girlfriend's bedroom or if you're if it's 3 a.m. or or you're in your dressing room yeah
WTF with Marc Maron Podcast
Episode 1617 - James Mangold
Shit's got to stop for you to get this down because it's good. And that struggle, that tension internal, as you said, became a way to not play aloof as a condition, arrogance as a condition, but to play, well, it's not arrogance. I'm actually carrying on. I'm actually trying to be polite to my other conversation as well." Das heißt, ich versuche, zu beiden gemeinsamen Gesprächen zu sein.
WTF with Marc Maron Podcast
Episode 1617 - James Mangold
Und manchmal verliere ich meine kreative Stimme und manchmal verliere ich definitiv mein inneres Leben.
WTF with Marc Maron Podcast
Episode 1617 - James Mangold
And in many ways, I feel like, I mean, some of it's silent in the sense that you're just drawing it off Edward Norton's eyes or Monica Barbaros' eyes. You're just looking at these people and you're seeing not just admiration, but
WTF with Marc Maron Podcast
Episode 1617 - James Mangold
But there's all sorts of thoughts they're having as they watch this, which I think is really interesting, which is that Salieri energy, which doesn't have to get to murderous jealousy, but can just get to... Ich weiß, es ist schwierig für einen kreativen Menschen. Hast du diesen Moment gehabt? Natürlich. Mit wem? Oh, well, watching old films, it's easy to be at peace with it.
WTF with Marc Maron Podcast
Episode 1617 - James Mangold
But watching, no, I remember watching Boogie Nights and just going, holy fuck, he is brilliant. And Paul. And feeling utterly dwarfed by the courage for him to leap into the kind of The world he was leaping into and then the way he was being unselfconscious about it and kind of like it was empathetic, empathetic in a world that had only been kind of treated with a kind of judgment.
WTF with Marc Maron Podcast
Episode 1617 - James Mangold
And there was there was I remember that. I mean, I can remember even as a. Ja. Ja. Ja. I just recently saw the first half hour of Saving Private Ryan. Oh my God. And it's just like, or there's someone put up a scene he did in Munich or because I did the Indiana Jones movie. I'm watching his staging, like just the beauty of his blocking and staging. And it's awe inspiring.
WTF with Marc Maron Podcast
Episode 1617 - James Mangold
There's moments where you're like, wow. How did he do that? And it's not that it's complicated, it's that it's so crystalline and pure. And that drives us. I think the place where you can always get screwed up as an artist is you can't be what they are. You have to be what you are.
WTF with Marc Maron Podcast
Episode 1617 - James Mangold
And it may be what you are will never hit like what they are. But you can be what you are. I have to be what I am. Right. Paul never knew. You just do it. And we also never know how long it's going to hold or whether it's momentary or just this movie. We all live with that fear. The world is filled with artists who have their moment and then that moment goes away and they're still artists. So
WTF with Marc Maron Podcast
Episode 1617 - James Mangold
No, the only other thing I ever thought when I was making it, it was a movie, you speak, we started talking about Westerns, and you talked about how it might apply to this, and it's a really good observation.
WTF with Marc Maron Podcast
Episode 1617 - James Mangold
The simplicity in the shooting style, I shot it in a way, I felt like Bob is such, my whole cast and the world is so eccentric in the film in a way, so rich, and their world is so rich in style. their uniforms.
WTF with Marc Maron Podcast
Episode 1617 - James Mangold
And it's like this was the last cool time. Dylan had a great observation about that, which he said to me, you know, the 60s, there really was no 60s. He said the 60 to 65 was an extension of the 50s. And 66 on was really the 70s.
WTF with Marc Maron Podcast
Episode 1617 - James Mangold
And musically and artistically, what was happening, the beats, it was all 50s and in music, and then it all went upside down. But the temptation... Like a lot of my collaborators on the movie when they came on, it's like, are we going to do this super grainy and kind of handheld like a Maisels film? And I was like, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. And I was like, I feel like putting too much...
WTF with Marc Maron Podcast
Episode 1617 - James Mangold
directorial overt style an a movie about characters who were so style-positioned already would be like a hat on a hat on a hat. And that in a way I wanted to observe. und zu sehen und zu fokussieren. Ich habe versucht, einen anderen echten Icon für mich und eine Art Touchstone für mich zu sein, wie Elia Kazan. Ich habe die Wasserfront erwähnt, aber auch East of Eden. Es ist ein toller Film.
WTF with Marc Maron Podcast
Episode 1617 - James Mangold
So that Technicolor, whatever that was. And widescreen. Yeah. And the way, I love the way close-ups, you have these kind of asymmetrical close-ups where you have this really obviously wide screen. So a face, you don't want to plop it in the center with kind of these two big wings coming off.
WTF with Marc Maron Podcast
Episode 1617 - James Mangold
So it's kind of the close-ups get asymmetrical or you end up with these incredibly beautiful two faces within the rectangle. Anyway, blah, blah, blah. But it was really interesting to me to try to just land in the world, I thought it was perfect, that color. And I have to assume though...
WTF with Marc Maron Podcast
Episode 1617 - James Mangold
Yeah, I went, well, I was born in the Lower East Side in New York in 63.
WTF with Marc Maron Podcast
Episode 1617 - James Mangold
It may have almost left at times. I have since memory, I think, of the late 60s and the pickle barrels and the Finnish salesmen and the... und die hebräischen Buchstaben und einfach, ich meine, einige davon sind noch da, nicht die Pickle Barrels, aber das und das Garbage, das in der Straße fliegt und einfach generell der Geruch und Gefühl.
WTF with Marc Maron Podcast
Episode 1617 - James Mangold
Think about that moment in New York within just a one half mile radius. You've got literally Bob Dylan at the Gaslight, Von Ronk, Baez onward. And then around the corner, you've got Coltrane and Davis. And I mean, this is literally the same place. Three blocks. Sure, and Ginsberg's around probably. Oh my God. And I mean, and Edward Hopper's painting over there.
WTF with Marc Maron Podcast
Episode 1617 - James Mangold
And I mean, it is a hot, it is, it's just a square mile with like so much shit going down. It's hard to believe. And how much that's, interbraided into trucking companies and bookstores and shipping and pickles and conditions and smoked fish and Chinese restaurants. And those clubs weren't even clubs, but kind of retrofitted Italian restaurants. They weren't built as clubs.
WTF with Marc Maron Podcast
Episode 1617 - James Mangold
They were kind of things that just happened in basements or in places. And yes, such an exciting time. There's an intimacy to it. Yes.
WTF with Marc Maron Podcast
Episode 1617 - James Mangold
Whatever it was. Where is he going to run? That's right. Why not die doing what you like? Right. But I thought that was great. It's really interesting. And this thing about plot is, I mean, we could obviously talk forever. The plot is, I think plot has been just over defined with like bad guy, good guy. And then there is such a thing as an emotional plot. Yeah.
WTF with Marc Maron Podcast
Episode 1617 - James Mangold
And I think it's more foreign to audiences at this point because they've been so stuffed to the gills with the world will end if this doesn't happen movies. But there is, you know, watching Joan fascinated, repulsed and falling in love with Bob at the same time is really interesting and has many movements to it. Watching Bob kind of in awe of Joan and kind of envying her career and her success
WTF with Marc Maron Podcast
Episode 1617 - James Mangold
Ja, genau. but they just don't involve a bank heist or needing to get X or Y. But that's where movies get exciting to me, is when that kind of, you know, I mean, I think Sid Field had a gigantic effect on a whole generation of filmmaking.
WTF with Marc Maron Podcast
Episode 1617 - James Mangold
Yeah, with like page 10 this, page 15, turnabout, blah, blah, blah. I never was able to work from that stuff. And partly because I just felt like what I was doing was so... und unerwachsen war, als ich versucht habe, so zu schreiben. Ich sage nicht, dass es für jemand anderen nicht funktionieren konnte. Ich fühlte wirklich, als hätte ich gelernt, zu schreiben,
WTF with Marc Maron Podcast
Episode 1617 - James Mangold
von einem Direktor, Milos Forman, an der Columbia University.
WTF with Marc Maron Podcast
Episode 1617 - James Mangold
Er hat mich als Beispiel unterrichtet. Aber er hat dort gelehrt? Er hat dort gelehrt und es war eine Direktionsklasse und jeder Student sollte in die Direktionsklasse kommen, um etwas zu direkten. Es waren fünf von uns und er kommt zu mir und ich habe nur eine Idee über einen blöden Mann, der unbeleuchtet ist. Und er sagt, okay. Und er fragt, worum es geht.
WTF with Marc Maron Podcast
Episode 1617 - James Mangold
Ich erinnere mich daran, dass er etwas sehr beschädigendes gesagt hat, wie das Kino. Und er sagt, du kannst keinen Film darüber machen. Was ist denn mit den Leuten? Und er sagt, hier ist die Sache. Hier ist mein Adress. Schreib 40 Seiten pro Woche und schicke sie mir. Und ich komme rein und spreche mit dir darüber. What could be more inspiring?
WTF with Marc Maron Podcast
Episode 1617 - James Mangold
So I'm writing 40 pages a week, like feverishly, and just sending them to Milos. And what he did immediately is instead of me having to follow, oh, I need a hook, or I just wrote about characters I knew. And then he would come in and he'd go, page 37, this is life.
WTF with Marc Maron Podcast
Episode 1617 - James Mangold
Es gab einen Moment im Film, in dem Debbie Harrys Charakter Liv Dyer's Charakter zeigen konnte, wie man den Cash-Reader auswählen kann. Sie sagte, nicht drücken, drücken Reset zuerst, dann drücken Sie das, dann öffnet sich der Draht. Es war so lustig, Milos zirkulierte diese Seite. Es waren nur Leute, die darüber sprachen, wie man einen alten Cash-Reader auswählen kann.
WTF with Marc Maron Podcast
Episode 1617 - James Mangold
Und er sagte, das ist das Leben. Und das war eine Lektion, die ist, dass das Leben selbst, wenn er erkennbar ist, kompelling ist. Manchmal muss man die Bombe unter dem Tisch nicht identifizieren. In der Humanität gibt es etwas Universales, in dem wir uns alle in diesem Moment kennen. Das kann einen Publikum halten. Das war eine Lektion von ihm.
WTF with Marc Maron Podcast
Episode 1617 - James Mangold
Andererseits gab es einen Punkt, als ich geschrieben habe, in dem ich keine Geschichte hatte, wo er sagte, Page 52, Dein Charakter kommt nach dem Tod seiner Mutter im Krankenhaus nach Hause. But he doesn't tell anyone that she's died. And his mother runs the place he works. And I go, yes. He goes, that's your movie.
WTF with Marc Maron Podcast
Episode 1617 - James Mangold
And he goes, just make it as long as possible before he tells anyone what happened. And that also was... He was helping me find my plot, but through a kind of organic exploration of character instead of this kind of like log line, kind of methodology, which never worked for me.
WTF with Marc Maron Podcast
Episode 1617 - James Mangold
Yeah, he's hyper-intelligent. I found that with him. I mean, there was there was a Yeah, yeah. He's an observant person. He remembers shit, you know, and he he's present. And we and he had seen Copland and 310 Yuma. And when I referred to Ozu, he knew what I was talking about.
WTF with Marc Maron Podcast
Episode 1617 - James Mangold
And he had this whole way of embracing what I was doing that a he wanted to get it true to the feelings and of the characters at the time. But he also as as a storyteller recognized artistically what I had to do with his life to make it a movie. Yeah. I remember this one, he said this like, I love the way you use Woody. And he goes, you know, it begins with Woody and it ends with Woody.
WTF with Marc Maron Podcast
Episode 1617 - James Mangold
It's like a sandwich. You're almost, you're home free because it doesn't matter what's in the middle because you got bread on both sides. And it was so Bob. First of all, he's saying this and it's just so Bob. And he's teaching me how to write him as he's saying this. But the other aspect is He's right. He's recognizing symmetry and circularity and kind of Aristotelian theory and storytelling.
WTF with Marc Maron Podcast
Episode 1617 - James Mangold
I mean, that's what he's recognizing in his own way and showing awareness of. And that was this incredibly freeing aspect, which is that he wasn't there just to protect his image. He was really interested in it being a good movie. And that was an incredible license to drive in a way that I am really grateful to.
WTF with Marc Maron Podcast
Episode 1617 - James Mangold
The whole build was to this moment. And then he just sort of... But don't you know, haven't you done, I mean, I'm in the middle of it, but the most often asked question, I arrive, how does it feel to be nominated for... What does it feel like? And it's like... Yeah, what are you going to say? Awesome. I don't want to say... The one thing I have to say, having gotten to know him a little bit, is...
WTF with Marc Maron Podcast
Episode 1617 - James Mangold
Dylan doesn't want to speak in cliche or kind of obvious. So like, like, like, It's kind of like going, do you like the cake? Yes, I like the cake. It's so boring.
WTF with Marc Maron Podcast
Episode 1617 - James Mangold
Yes, because it's just so... It's kind of, you're asking me to become a zombie by asking me a zombie question. Yeah, right. And if I... And that was... I mean, I never felt that pressure with him because I just don't think I asked... What does it feel like? So that was such a triumph. You must have been so... Like I never did that kind of thing. You just let him lead?
WTF with Marc Maron Podcast
Episode 1617 - James Mangold
Well, but also doing exactly what you're doing here, which is just talking. Did he see the movie? No, not that I know of. According to him, he hadn't seen any movie that's been made about him, that he was happy to participate in the screenplay. And I kind of get it. I kind of go, would I want to watch? There's a whole amount of kind of shit you'd have to go through watching. Ja. ... so ein Bild.
WTF with Marc Maron Podcast
Episode 1617 - James Mangold
Ja. Und ich bin mir nicht sicher. Er war wirklich daran, über das Skript zu gehen, mich zu verstehen. Ich fühlte, als ob er wirklich versucht hätte, um ... Er hat gesagt ... Ich fühlte, als ob ... Sein Manager hat mich nach dem ersten Meeting angerufen und gesagt, er mag dich. Und ich dachte, oh, gut. Das ist nicht Rosen. Ja. Oh, Jeff, ja.
WTF with Marc Maron Podcast
Episode 1617 - James Mangold
Und er hat gesagt, du weißt, was er gesagt hat, was mich macht, dass er dich mag. Und ich sage, nein, er hat keine Agenda. Und das hat mich auch so viel über... Ich meine, natürlich hatte ich viele Agendas, aber ich weiß, was er bedeutet. Ich hatte keine preordneten biografischen Observationen. Ich war raus, um zu beweisen, was er hat.
WTF with Marc Maron Podcast
Episode 1617 - James Mangold
Ich versuchte, in seinem Weltraum zu leben, um all diese Scheiße zu assimilieren. Und dann etwas auf dem Bild zu stellen, das hoffentlich transzendent oder evokativ war, aber auch wahr. to the mixed up crazy feeling of that time without having one conclusion or another.
WTF with Marc Maron Podcast
Episode 1617 - James Mangold
But that fear of the agenda, I think the agenda to categorize, that to me is a part of Dylan I really identify with, which is that need for we all have in order to talk about something to box it in in einer Art und Weise, in der drei Sätze gut genug sind. Und das ist die Todesgeschichte.
WTF with Marc Maron Podcast
Episode 1617 - James Mangold
Ich spreche nicht mit jemandem. Right. But the thing is, I didn't... And the other thing I didn't ask, which was him to explain his songs. Yeah. How is he going to do that? Well, people seem... I mean, this is a whole separate topic for another day, but like the...
WTF with Marc Maron Podcast
Episode 1617 - James Mangold
The whole idea that he's an enigma who has written over 600 songs and released 55 albums of original music played and sung by him is so unfair to me. What he really is, is a really vexing and interesting artist whose music asks questions that we want answers to and he won't give us. Well, that's what art is. Right.
WTF with Marc Maron Podcast
Episode 1617 - James Mangold
But like, it's maybe a kind of oversimplified thing, but like think of Frank Sinatra, probably released a similar amount of records, never wrote a song or just a few, but no one calls it an enigma. So why? Why does one guy get kind of, why is, and he lived behind walls, he wasn't open, they didn't do interviews all the time. Yeah.
WTF with Marc Maron Podcast
Episode 1617 - James Mangold
But why is this mantle... And I think it's because he's such a successful and provocative artist, Dylan, that we keep wanting more and there's a finite limit to what he's going to give us. And when we reach that limit, that boundary...
WTF with Marc Maron Podcast
Episode 1617 - James Mangold
Wir werden frustriert mit seinem Geheimnis, weil wir jetzt in einem Weltraum sind, wo, schau mal, was ich mit dir tue, wo Künstler kommen und sich offensichtlich erklären und nicht nur das Werk sprechen lassen. Und es gibt, es gibt, ich habe kein Problem damit, weil Film unglaublich kompliziert ist.
WTF with Marc Maron Podcast
Episode 1617 - James Mangold
Genau, und ich denke, er wäre glücklich, wenn er eine Art Garantie hätte, dass die Konversation in Kraft leben würde. Ich denke, er hat viel zu sagen. Ich denke, dass das Problem ist, dass diese Art von Profit-Charakter, dass alles ein weiteres Quote aus dem Berg kommt, das dann geamplifiziert wird und auf den Kopf gelegt wird und analysiert wird. Und es ist ein Bedürfnis.
WTF with Marc Maron Podcast
Episode 1617 - James Mangold
Es ist der Bedürfnis, den wir diskutiert haben, der Bedürfnis der Genie. Ja.
WTF with Marc Maron Podcast
Episode 1617 - James Mangold
Es hat mich immer in dem Skript erschreckt, weil wir es geschrieben haben und es war kind of just sitting there, the balls and it just and and even Matt Damon was teasing him on the day, you know, and and oh, today's you crying day, which I was shocked at, by the way, Damon was busting Tracy's balls. Ja, ich meine, es zeigt dir die Art von Lockerraum-Bullshit in den Make-up-Trailern manchmal.
WTF with Marc Maron Podcast
Episode 1617 - James Mangold
Aber Tracy hat es nicht nur genäht, sondern es ist so primal. Es ist so ein wunderschönes Ding, weil es dich tatsächlich entdehnt. Ja. What I always thought it was going to be was just a scene about kind of the corporate chairman being kind of flustered and freaked out. And what Tracy does with it makes it utterly, he's a guy who's lived in a velvet bubble all his life.
WTF with Marc Maron Podcast
Episode 1617 - James Mangold
And suddenly he's had this primal life endangering experience. And it's just caused this kind of... Tracey ist ein toller Schauspieler und ein toller Schauspieler und ein toller Mann. Aber wirklich, das ist ein Moment in dieser Szene. Es ist so gut, oder? Und das ist, weißt du, ein weiterer Film über Künstler in einer Art.
WTF with Marc Maron Podcast
Episode 1617 - James Mangold
Es hat keine Musik, Sänger in es, aber es hat einfach Gitarren für eine Rente verändert. Und es ist eine ähnliche Geschichte.
WTF with Marc Maron Podcast
Episode 1617 - James Mangold
Me too. I mean, I literally wrote to the new team at DC when they took over and just said, if this was available, I'd love to try something. What is it about Swamp Thing?
WTF with Marc Maron Podcast
Episode 1617 - James Mangold
gothic horror kind of frankenstein legend the whole concept of man plant i find really like kind of but there's something about that that character that is sort of like i love the name i love just the title i love but he's an existential character the bernie writes an art to me of the original series is so incredible yeah and the the aspect of kind of being
WTF with Marc Maron Podcast
Episode 1617 - James Mangold
separated from your life and suddenly haunting the woods and kind of living in this abject... Loneliness. Deformation and loneliness. And that's really interesting. I honestly don't know what's coming next. I kind of went really rapid fire through a series of movies, the last three. And this is kind of my kind of... And then I didn't anticipate, you know, the kind of whole fall season dance of...
WTF with Marc Maron Podcast
Episode 1617 - James Mangold
Und er war großartig in diesem Film. Und er ist auch in Walk the Line. Ich liebe ihn. Hat er den Vater gespielt? Ja. Er ist großartig. Es war toll, mit dir zu sprechen.
WTF with Marc Maron Podcast
Episode 1617 - James Mangold
But... Well, it's what I've done all my life. So there's... I mean, I'm sure there's a shit you've done all your life where it's somehow you know how to... Oh, that's... Yeah, sure.
WTF with Marc Maron Podcast
Episode 1617 - James Mangold
Ja. Ja. Ja. Ja, weil es ist, wenn man einen Film macht, ist es einfach, du hast AD, du weißt, du hast ADs, sie sagen dir, wo du sein sollst, du blickst, du gehst in dein Auto und dann machst du deine Scheiße.
WTF with Marc Maron Podcast
Episode 1617 - James Mangold
I don't. I just live with it. I mean, it's partly what fuels us, isn't it?
WTF with Marc Maron Podcast
Episode 1617 - James Mangold
Right, but that's life. I mean, I think that you ask yourself those questions. All the time? If you're that guy. If you're that guy. If you're awake in the world, you gotta ask yourself existential questions.
WTF with Marc Maron Podcast
Episode 1617 - James Mangold
I don't know better or worse, I just know that it's constant, but it's also the coarseness of everything is disturbing to me.
WTF with Marc Maron Podcast
Episode 1617 - James Mangold
Yes, that. But I also mean that the coarseness in the... I feel like we've lost our ability... Yeah, somebody wants the idea of shamelessly doubling down.