Jack Goldsmith

Thank you for having me, Ross.

Thank you for having me, Ross.

Sure. The Trump administration is pushing executive power across to unprecedented places in new ways on many dimensions. So I'll divide it up into a couple. First, vertically down through the executive branch, the administration has taken an unprecedentedly broad view of the unitary executive.

Sure. The Trump administration is pushing executive power across to unprecedented places in new ways on many dimensions. So I'll divide it up into a couple. First, vertically down through the executive branch, the administration has taken an unprecedentedly broad view of the unitary executive.

Maybe we can talk about that more later, but the basic idea is that the president gets to completely control the executive branch, its decisions, firings, interpretation of the law, that the president's views of the law prevail for the entire executive branch, and everyone has to get in line for that. And there have been elements of this before, but this is much more extreme than ever.

Maybe we can talk about that more later, but the basic idea is that the president gets to completely control the executive branch, its decisions, firings, interpretation of the law, that the president's views of the law prevail for the entire executive branch, and everyone has to get in line for that. And there have been elements of this before, but this is much more extreme than ever.

That's the vertical dimension. The horizontal dimension is that they are asserting super broad executive power claims vis-a-vis other institutions that have checkpoints against them, trying to weaken those institutions. Congress first. It's basically been attacking Congress's appropriation power, its core power.

That's the vertical dimension. The horizontal dimension is that they are asserting super broad executive power claims vis-a-vis other institutions that have checkpoints against them, trying to weaken those institutions. Congress first. It's basically been attacking Congress's appropriation power, its core power.

It's been attacking Congress's traditional ability to determine which agencies are which and how they're organized. And it's doing something analogous with courts. It's been being extremely aggressive and pushing back against and game playing with courts.

It's been attacking Congress's traditional ability to determine which agencies are which and how they're organized. And it's doing something analogous with courts. It's been being extremely aggressive and pushing back against and game playing with courts.

I would not say that there's been any sort of systematic defiance yet, but they've come close to the line, and they're being extremely disrespectful toward courts. And then they're pushing out executive power against civil society. You see this in the law firms, the universities, and the like.

I would not say that there's been any sort of systematic defiance yet, but they've come close to the line, and they're being extremely disrespectful toward courts. And then they're pushing out executive power against civil society. You see this in the law firms, the universities, and the like.

So horizontally and vertically, they're pushing executive power, sometimes through interpretation of statutes, sometimes through Article II.

So horizontally and vertically, they're pushing executive power, sometimes through interpretation of statutes, sometimes through Article II.

Right. So several things have surprised me. I wasn't prepared for the extent of the onslaught. It's really just remarkable how many things they're doing, especially inside the executive branch, to try to bring complete control of the president.

Right. So several things have surprised me. I wasn't prepared for the extent of the onslaught. It's really just remarkable how many things they're doing, especially inside the executive branch, to try to bring complete control of the president.

And I wasn't expecting the extent of the loyalty tests and the insistence that the president gets to determine what the law is and that there's no independent legal check.

And I wasn't expecting the extent of the loyalty tests and the insistence that the president gets to determine what the law is and that there's no independent legal check.

Very much what I was doing in the Bush administration. So my old office, the Office of Legal Counsel, has basically, which was traditionally in the Justice Department, traditionally the office that made legal interpretations for the executive branch, subject indeed to the review of the attorney general and the president,

Very much what I was doing in the Bush administration. So my old office, the Office of Legal Counsel, has basically, which was traditionally in the Justice Department, traditionally the office that made legal interpretations for the executive branch, subject indeed to the review of the attorney general and the president,