Interview Participant
Appearances
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
The Body Trauma Expert: Medicating Kids Can Harm Brain Development! Eye Movement Trick That Fixes Trauma! The Secret To EMDR Therapy! - Bessel van Der Kolk
When you said about your mother and the incest thing, You'd realized as an adult much of your work focused on incest. And then you turned to your mother and asked her if there was an experience she had had and she fainted. Do you believe that there's a part of you that knew?
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
The Body Trauma Expert: Medicating Kids Can Harm Brain Development! Eye Movement Trick That Fixes Trauma! The Secret To EMDR Therapy! - Bessel van Der Kolk
Okay, but the indicator was that she was always uptight about sex.
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
The Body Trauma Expert: Medicating Kids Can Harm Brain Development! Eye Movement Trick That Fixes Trauma! The Secret To EMDR Therapy! - Bessel van Der Kolk
Yep. How many of the people that you treated in your practice, could you trace their adult dysfunction back to an early childhood experience?
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
The Body Trauma Expert: Medicating Kids Can Harm Brain Development! Eye Movement Trick That Fixes Trauma! The Secret To EMDR Therapy! - Bessel van Der Kolk
90%?
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
The Body Trauma Expert: Medicating Kids Can Harm Brain Development! Eye Movement Trick That Fixes Trauma! The Secret To EMDR Therapy! - Bessel van Der Kolk
And what's the crux of what happened to them as a child, if you had to simplify it?
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
The Body Trauma Expert: Medicating Kids Can Harm Brain Development! Eye Movement Trick That Fixes Trauma! The Secret To EMDR Therapy! - Bessel van Der Kolk
When you say terrible things.
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
The Body Trauma Expert: Medicating Kids Can Harm Brain Development! Eye Movement Trick That Fixes Trauma! The Secret To EMDR Therapy! - Bessel van Der Kolk
What if it was just words?
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
The Body Trauma Expert: Medicating Kids Can Harm Brain Development! Eye Movement Trick That Fixes Trauma! The Secret To EMDR Therapy! - Bessel van Der Kolk
But secondly, it's a dream where we feel like we're only just getting started. And if you enjoy what we do here, please join the 24% of people that listen to this podcast regularly and follow us on this app. Here's a promise I'm going to make to you. I'm going to do everything in my power to make this show as good as I can now and into the future.
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
The Body Trauma Expert: Medicating Kids Can Harm Brain Development! Eye Movement Trick That Fixes Trauma! The Secret To EMDR Therapy! - Bessel van Der Kolk
Intentionally and unintentionally? Automatically. Automatically? Yeah. Is that people hurting people?
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
The Body Trauma Expert: Medicating Kids Can Harm Brain Development! Eye Movement Trick That Fixes Trauma! The Secret To EMDR Therapy! - Bessel van Der Kolk
What do you see?
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
The Body Trauma Expert: Medicating Kids Can Harm Brain Development! Eye Movement Trick That Fixes Trauma! The Secret To EMDR Therapy! - Bessel van Der Kolk
I guess it's difficult for parents because they sometimes think, well, I've got to raise a child that's not dysfunctional, so I'm going to have to punish them and I'm going to have to discipline them as a way to make sure that they grow up to be healthy and well-rounded.
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
The Body Trauma Expert: Medicating Kids Can Harm Brain Development! Eye Movement Trick That Fixes Trauma! The Secret To EMDR Therapy! - Bessel van Der Kolk
I grew up in a household where I was punished physically in pretty significant ways, ways that I probably can share because it's just quite significant. Quite horrendous. Yeah.
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
The Body Trauma Expert: Medicating Kids Can Harm Brain Development! Eye Movement Trick That Fixes Trauma! The Secret To EMDR Therapy! - Bessel van Der Kolk
I was born in Africa, so I've got an African mother and an English father. Yeah. It's funny because I look back on it and I go, and this is just me rationalizing in hindsight, I go, I'm happy that I had a home where there was discipline. Because if I didn't have that home, then I wouldn't maybe have left the city.
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
The Body Trauma Expert: Medicating Kids Can Harm Brain Development! Eye Movement Trick That Fixes Trauma! The Secret To EMDR Therapy! - Bessel van Der Kolk
We're one of the few families that actually left the city, the fairly small town, relatively small town to some of the towns I live in now. And went and did a lot of things with my life. And I didn't get caught up in drugs like some of my friends. I wasn't dysfunctional. And my mother couldn't read or write as well. So I feel somewhat thankful.
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
The Body Trauma Expert: Medicating Kids Can Harm Brain Development! Eye Movement Trick That Fixes Trauma! The Secret To EMDR Therapy! - Bessel van Der Kolk
But I'm rationalizing in hindsight because it somewhat ended up okay in certain measures of my life. In other areas of my life, there's dysfunction.
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
The Body Trauma Expert: Medicating Kids Can Harm Brain Development! Eye Movement Trick That Fixes Trauma! The Secret To EMDR Therapy! - Bessel van Der Kolk
I think that point is really interesting because although I was physically punished a lot,
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
The Body Trauma Expert: Medicating Kids Can Harm Brain Development! Eye Movement Trick That Fixes Trauma! The Secret To EMDR Therapy! - Bessel van Der Kolk
We're going to deliver the guests that you want me to speak to and we're going to continue to keep doing all of the things you love about this show. Thank you. Thank you so much. Back to the episode. to Bessel van der Kolk. You've been described as maybe the most influential psychiatrist of the 21st century by the Financial Times. What is the mission you've spent your life pursuing?
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
The Body Trauma Expert: Medicating Kids Can Harm Brain Development! Eye Movement Trick That Fixes Trauma! The Secret To EMDR Therapy! - Bessel van Der Kolk
And I said, that's the end of the story. It still causes you a lot of emotion.
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
The Body Trauma Expert: Medicating Kids Can Harm Brain Development! Eye Movement Trick That Fixes Trauma! The Secret To EMDR Therapy! - Bessel van Der Kolk
Why do you think so much emotion comes up when you talk about that?
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
The Body Trauma Expert: Medicating Kids Can Harm Brain Development! Eye Movement Trick That Fixes Trauma! The Secret To EMDR Therapy! - Bessel van Der Kolk
It's tremendously hard to do that because it's going against your, your level.
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
The Body Trauma Expert: Medicating Kids Can Harm Brain Development! Eye Movement Trick That Fixes Trauma! The Secret To EMDR Therapy! - Bessel van Der Kolk
Yeah.
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
The Body Trauma Expert: Medicating Kids Can Harm Brain Development! Eye Movement Trick That Fixes Trauma! The Secret To EMDR Therapy! - Bessel van Der Kolk
There's parts of me that manifest sometimes, and I understand that this is the behavior that I learned.
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
The Body Trauma Expert: Medicating Kids Can Harm Brain Development! Eye Movement Trick That Fixes Trauma! The Secret To EMDR Therapy! - Bessel van Der Kolk
And I think there's a part of me that's worried, actually, because I learned, I grew up in a home where physical discipline was the response to most kind of forms of unwanted behavior, that I'm worried that if I become a dad, that will be my natural... Probably will be. Yeah, I don't want it to be.
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
The Body Trauma Expert: Medicating Kids Can Harm Brain Development! Eye Movement Trick That Fixes Trauma! The Secret To EMDR Therapy! - Bessel van Der Kolk
Yeah. Yeah.
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
The Body Trauma Expert: Medicating Kids Can Harm Brain Development! Eye Movement Trick That Fixes Trauma! The Secret To EMDR Therapy! - Bessel van Der Kolk
When we see dysfunctional behavior in children, I think one of the natural reactions is to give them some kind of medication or to attach some label to them and say that they're broken in this way. How do you feel about that?
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
The Body Trauma Expert: Medicating Kids Can Harm Brain Development! Eye Movement Trick That Fixes Trauma! The Secret To EMDR Therapy! - Bessel van Der Kolk
I mean, just on that point, there's a stat I read that children from low-income families are four times more likely, as the privately insured, to receive antipsychotic medicines.
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
The Body Trauma Expert: Medicating Kids Can Harm Brain Development! Eye Movement Trick That Fixes Trauma! The Secret To EMDR Therapy! - Bessel van Der Kolk
That's true. That's true. 400% more likely to receive antipsychotic medications.
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
The Body Trauma Expert: Medicating Kids Can Harm Brain Development! Eye Movement Trick That Fixes Trauma! The Secret To EMDR Therapy! - Bessel van Der Kolk
Brain growth.
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
The Body Trauma Expert: Medicating Kids Can Harm Brain Development! Eye Movement Trick That Fixes Trauma! The Secret To EMDR Therapy! - Bessel van Der Kolk
I want to talk about all of that, specifically this idea of movement and the role it plays in healing. Just to close off on the part about childhood trauma, why is it so important for a child to grow up with a secure attachment to a caregiver?
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
The Body Trauma Expert: Medicating Kids Can Harm Brain Development! Eye Movement Trick That Fixes Trauma! The Secret To EMDR Therapy! - Bessel van Der Kolk
And this word trauma seems to be central to your work. And when I looked before this conversation at the rise in the use of this word online and people searching this word, it's pretty staggering what I found. There's this graph that shows a huge jump in people using the word trauma. What is your view on the subject matter of trauma, specifically how we've misunderstood what it is
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
The Body Trauma Expert: Medicating Kids Can Harm Brain Development! Eye Movement Trick That Fixes Trauma! The Secret To EMDR Therapy! - Bessel van Der Kolk
Imprints of early experience, are they changeable?
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
The Body Trauma Expert: Medicating Kids Can Harm Brain Development! Eye Movement Trick That Fixes Trauma! The Secret To EMDR Therapy! - Bessel van Der Kolk
So you can heal from your childhood trauma?
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
The Body Trauma Expert: Medicating Kids Can Harm Brain Development! Eye Movement Trick That Fixes Trauma! The Secret To EMDR Therapy! - Bessel van Der Kolk
Everyone?
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
The Body Trauma Expert: Medicating Kids Can Harm Brain Development! Eye Movement Trick That Fixes Trauma! The Secret To EMDR Therapy! - Bessel van Der Kolk
In your experience, you've dealt with patients your whole life, your whole professional life. How many of those patients do you think were healable?
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
The Body Trauma Expert: Medicating Kids Can Harm Brain Development! Eye Movement Trick That Fixes Trauma! The Secret To EMDR Therapy! - Bessel van Der Kolk
Your book was very interesting because when I read the cover and then I watched a video you'd made talking about the sort of six sort of treatments and stuff that exist within the body, things like yoga, you talk about theater and acting and how that helps you to get out of your trauma. The body keeps the score. This was a pretty radical approach to thinking through trauma.
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
The Body Trauma Expert: Medicating Kids Can Harm Brain Development! Eye Movement Trick That Fixes Trauma! The Secret To EMDR Therapy! - Bessel van Der Kolk
Well, I use it in my everyday language with my partner. And I've heard people say the body keeps the score, the body keeps the score. When we're talking about how our body is holding on to those traumatic memories, traumatic things that have happened to us.
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
The Body Trauma Expert: Medicating Kids Can Harm Brain Development! Eye Movement Trick That Fixes Trauma! The Secret To EMDR Therapy! - Bessel van Der Kolk
For someone who has never read your book and doesn't even understand the, like, base premise here, what is the, like, base premise of your, of the title there?
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
The Body Trauma Expert: Medicating Kids Can Harm Brain Development! Eye Movement Trick That Fixes Trauma! The Secret To EMDR Therapy! - Bessel van Der Kolk
I kind of see it as two approaches. You can either go, let's try and change the mind, which will then change the body downstream. Or you can say, let's change the body, which will then change the mind.
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
The Body Trauma Expert: Medicating Kids Can Harm Brain Development! Eye Movement Trick That Fixes Trauma! The Secret To EMDR Therapy! - Bessel van Der Kolk
Yeah.
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
The Body Trauma Expert: Medicating Kids Can Harm Brain Development! Eye Movement Trick That Fixes Trauma! The Secret To EMDR Therapy! - Bessel van Der Kolk
This somatic approach. I've only recently had this term from my partner. And she says it's amazing. And she told me to speak to you on this podcast because she says you'll really help to change her opinion on this. What is this somatic approach to healing?
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
The Body Trauma Expert: Medicating Kids Can Harm Brain Development! Eye Movement Trick That Fixes Trauma! The Secret To EMDR Therapy! - Bessel van Der Kolk
Can you do it on me?
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
The Body Trauma Expert: Medicating Kids Can Harm Brain Development! Eye Movement Trick That Fixes Trauma! The Secret To EMDR Therapy! - Bessel van Der Kolk
Why are women just seem to be so much better at this stuff than men? Because they're doing like Pilates, yoga. These are all things, dancing. These are things typically women do more than men. And it seems women are just more in touch with it.
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
The Body Trauma Expert: Medicating Kids Can Harm Brain Development! Eye Movement Trick That Fixes Trauma! The Secret To EMDR Therapy! - Bessel van Der Kolk
One of the interesting things that you write about, which I found particularly interesting because I saw little flashes of myself in the words, is you said, I found that the more traumas your patients have in their background, the more creative and successful they often become.
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
The Body Trauma Expert: Medicating Kids Can Harm Brain Development! Eye Movement Trick That Fixes Trauma! The Secret To EMDR Therapy! - Bessel van Der Kolk
Often.
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
The Body Trauma Expert: Medicating Kids Can Harm Brain Development! Eye Movement Trick That Fixes Trauma! The Secret To EMDR Therapy! - Bessel van Der Kolk
Yeah, yeah. It's the people who have had to struggle, who often see new possibilities and have no choice but to discover new options.
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
The Body Trauma Expert: Medicating Kids Can Harm Brain Development! Eye Movement Trick That Fixes Trauma! The Secret To EMDR Therapy! - Bessel van Der Kolk
They might be outside with a drug addiction.
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
The Body Trauma Expert: Medicating Kids Can Harm Brain Development! Eye Movement Trick That Fixes Trauma! The Secret To EMDR Therapy! - Bessel van Der Kolk
I think there's a bit of a joke in the investment community that says you'll get better returns if you invest in someone, an entrepreneur or a founder that is a little bit traumatized. And I actually think, I don't want to misquote her, but I had Barbara Cochran, who's a shark on Shark Tank in the USA here on the show. And one of the things she said to me was,
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
The Body Trauma Expert: Medicating Kids Can Harm Brain Development! Eye Movement Trick That Fixes Trauma! The Secret To EMDR Therapy! - Bessel van Der Kolk
with all of her investments, the ones that tend to do the best are those that have a little bit of a trauma in their past. And she says, because when they call me with a problem, they call me with the solution attached versus people who have never had trauma. They call me and just tell me the problem.
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
The Body Trauma Expert: Medicating Kids Can Harm Brain Development! Eye Movement Trick That Fixes Trauma! The Secret To EMDR Therapy! - Bessel van Der Kolk
So they'll call me and say, listen, Barbara, this has happened and this is what we're going to do about it. And that was her, you know, she said it in a slightly humorous way, but I wondered if you thought there was any truth in this idea that... Yeah, I think that's, again, a selection bias of people she worked with.
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
The Body Trauma Expert: Medicating Kids Can Harm Brain Development! Eye Movement Trick That Fixes Trauma! The Secret To EMDR Therapy! - Bessel van Der Kolk
Because I wondered if you've had an anomalous early upbringing, does that make you an anomalous adult? Does it increase the probability that you become an anomalous, slightly different adult? Oh, absolutely. And that can go everywhere.
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
The Body Trauma Expert: Medicating Kids Can Harm Brain Development! Eye Movement Trick That Fixes Trauma! The Secret To EMDR Therapy! - Bessel van Der Kolk
Is trauma a story in your brain?
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
The Body Trauma Expert: Medicating Kids Can Harm Brain Development! Eye Movement Trick That Fixes Trauma! The Secret To EMDR Therapy! - Bessel van Der Kolk
A perception.
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
The Body Trauma Expert: Medicating Kids Can Harm Brain Development! Eye Movement Trick That Fixes Trauma! The Secret To EMDR Therapy! - Bessel van Der Kolk
Give me an example of a perception.
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
The Body Trauma Expert: Medicating Kids Can Harm Brain Development! Eye Movement Trick That Fixes Trauma! The Secret To EMDR Therapy! - Bessel van Der Kolk
Because you're still forming your perception of the world.
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
The Body Trauma Expert: Medicating Kids Can Harm Brain Development! Eye Movement Trick That Fixes Trauma! The Secret To EMDR Therapy! - Bessel van Der Kolk
And an inkblot test, for anyone that doesn't know, is basically just a piece of paper with random ink stains.
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
The Body Trauma Expert: Medicating Kids Can Harm Brain Development! Eye Movement Trick That Fixes Trauma! The Secret To EMDR Therapy! - Bessel van Der Kolk
Yeah.
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
The Body Trauma Expert: Medicating Kids Can Harm Brain Development! Eye Movement Trick That Fixes Trauma! The Secret To EMDR Therapy! - Bessel van Der Kolk
I've never done an inkblot test. I feel like I should do one.
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
The Body Trauma Expert: Medicating Kids Can Harm Brain Development! Eye Movement Trick That Fixes Trauma! The Secret To EMDR Therapy! - Bessel van Der Kolk
How many people do you think, I mean, this is maybe a ridiculous question, but how many people, what percentage of people do you think have trauma in some form, how you define it?
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
The Body Trauma Expert: Medicating Kids Can Harm Brain Development! Eye Movement Trick That Fixes Trauma! The Secret To EMDR Therapy! - Bessel van Der Kolk
And what is trauma doing to my brain? You said you've done a lot of neuroimaging scans. If I was traumatized and you scanned my brain, is there something you could see?
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
The Body Trauma Expert: Medicating Kids Can Harm Brain Development! Eye Movement Trick That Fixes Trauma! The Secret To EMDR Therapy! - Bessel van Der Kolk
So how does trauma affect the brain?
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
The Body Trauma Expert: Medicating Kids Can Harm Brain Development! Eye Movement Trick That Fixes Trauma! The Secret To EMDR Therapy! - Bessel van Der Kolk
When people are suffering from some kind of psychological disorder, whether it's depression, anxiety, PTSD, what is it that you disagree with, with the traditional view of how to treat them?
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
The Body Trauma Expert: Medicating Kids Can Harm Brain Development! Eye Movement Trick That Fixes Trauma! The Secret To EMDR Therapy! - Bessel van Der Kolk
So the part of my brain, you said just around the amygdala? Below the amygdala. Below the amygdala. People that are traumatized, they have some kind of dysfunction in that typically?
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
The Body Trauma Expert: Medicating Kids Can Harm Brain Development! Eye Movement Trick That Fixes Trauma! The Secret To EMDR Therapy! - Bessel van Der Kolk
Keeps firing.
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
The Body Trauma Expert: Medicating Kids Can Harm Brain Development! Eye Movement Trick That Fixes Trauma! The Secret To EMDR Therapy! - Bessel van Der Kolk
Is that anxiety? Yes.
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
The Body Trauma Expert: Medicating Kids Can Harm Brain Development! Eye Movement Trick That Fixes Trauma! The Secret To EMDR Therapy! - Bessel van Der Kolk
You've adopted a dog and it shakes in your house still?
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
The Body Trauma Expert: Medicating Kids Can Harm Brain Development! Eye Movement Trick That Fixes Trauma! The Secret To EMDR Therapy! - Bessel van Der Kolk
So when someone says they're triggered...
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
The Body Trauma Expert: Medicating Kids Can Harm Brain Development! Eye Movement Trick That Fixes Trauma! The Secret To EMDR Therapy! - Bessel van Der Kolk
Okay.
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
The Body Trauma Expert: Medicating Kids Can Harm Brain Development! Eye Movement Trick That Fixes Trauma! The Secret To EMDR Therapy! - Bessel van Der Kolk
I've got a picture here of what the brain looks like when the brain smoke detector goes off. Is that what it looks like on the brain?
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
The Body Trauma Expert: Medicating Kids Can Harm Brain Development! Eye Movement Trick That Fixes Trauma! The Secret To EMDR Therapy! - Bessel van Der Kolk
Can you explain this to me?
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
The Body Trauma Expert: Medicating Kids Can Harm Brain Development! Eye Movement Trick That Fixes Trauma! The Secret To EMDR Therapy! - Bessel van Der Kolk
Do you get it? Yeah. So for people that can't see it in this brain scan, what I'm basically seeing is the right side is extremely activated. The left side looks like it's off. Off, yeah. And then there's these two blank, empty spaces that aren't activated called the dorsolateral prefrontal cortex.
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
The Body Trauma Expert: Medicating Kids Can Harm Brain Development! Eye Movement Trick That Fixes Trauma! The Secret To EMDR Therapy! - Bessel van Der Kolk
Okay.
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
The Body Trauma Expert: Medicating Kids Can Harm Brain Development! Eye Movement Trick That Fixes Trauma! The Secret To EMDR Therapy! - Bessel van Der Kolk
Okay. So that's when, I mean, presumably that's when you get anxiety, right? When you start thinking about the future.
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
The Body Trauma Expert: Medicating Kids Can Harm Brain Development! Eye Movement Trick That Fixes Trauma! The Secret To EMDR Therapy! - Bessel van Der Kolk
So this particular person, this brain scan that I have here, this guy was in a car accident. And the triggered brain that I'm looking at here is he was basically put in an fMRI scanner. And he was intentionally triggered to see what would happen in his brain. Exactly. So he was shown maybe a car accident or something.
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
The Body Trauma Expert: Medicating Kids Can Harm Brain Development! Eye Movement Trick That Fixes Trauma! The Secret To EMDR Therapy! - Bessel van Der Kolk
Oh, you showed him a picture of his car.
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
The Body Trauma Expert: Medicating Kids Can Harm Brain Development! Eye Movement Trick That Fixes Trauma! The Secret To EMDR Therapy! - Bessel van Der Kolk
Your sensory details. And the right side of his brain was illuminated.
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
The Body Trauma Expert: Medicating Kids Can Harm Brain Development! Eye Movement Trick That Fixes Trauma! The Secret To EMDR Therapy! - Bessel van Der Kolk
Are you consciously reliving it or is your subconscious reliving it?
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
The Body Trauma Expert: Medicating Kids Can Harm Brain Development! Eye Movement Trick That Fixes Trauma! The Secret To EMDR Therapy! - Bessel van Der Kolk
And my body?
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
The Body Trauma Expert: Medicating Kids Can Harm Brain Development! Eye Movement Trick That Fixes Trauma! The Secret To EMDR Therapy! - Bessel van Der Kolk
So I've been triggered in the past and I felt that sort of instant fight or flight response because something's happened or whatever. And it's instantaneous. So although I don't feel like I'm back there, my body does feel like it's back there.
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
The Body Trauma Expert: Medicating Kids Can Harm Brain Development! Eye Movement Trick That Fixes Trauma! The Secret To EMDR Therapy! - Bessel van Der Kolk
And is there a way for this particular gentleman here who's been through that car crash to ever stop this triggering?
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
The Body Trauma Expert: Medicating Kids Can Harm Brain Development! Eye Movement Trick That Fixes Trauma! The Secret To EMDR Therapy! - Bessel van Der Kolk
He's done quite well.
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
The Body Trauma Expert: Medicating Kids Can Harm Brain Development! Eye Movement Trick That Fixes Trauma! The Secret To EMDR Therapy! - Bessel van Der Kolk
And what was his results?
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
The Body Trauma Expert: Medicating Kids Can Harm Brain Development! Eye Movement Trick That Fixes Trauma! The Secret To EMDR Therapy! - Bessel van Der Kolk
What's the most radical improvement you've seen in your clinical practice?
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
The Body Trauma Expert: Medicating Kids Can Harm Brain Development! Eye Movement Trick That Fixes Trauma! The Secret To EMDR Therapy! - Bessel van Der Kolk
Give me the most, the best example.
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
The Body Trauma Expert: Medicating Kids Can Harm Brain Development! Eye Movement Trick That Fixes Trauma! The Secret To EMDR Therapy! - Bessel van Der Kolk
What did you do in those three sessions?
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
The Body Trauma Expert: Medicating Kids Can Harm Brain Development! Eye Movement Trick That Fixes Trauma! The Secret To EMDR Therapy! - Bessel van Der Kolk
You're telling me that wiggling your fingers in front of people's eyes can help heal their trauma.
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
The Body Trauma Expert: Medicating Kids Can Harm Brain Development! Eye Movement Trick That Fixes Trauma! The Secret To EMDR Therapy! - Bessel van Der Kolk
And in the research that's been done on this, what did the outcome, what was the conclusion in terms of its efficacy?
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
The Body Trauma Expert: Medicating Kids Can Harm Brain Development! Eye Movement Trick That Fixes Trauma! The Secret To EMDR Therapy! - Bessel van Der Kolk
early childhood trauma is much more sort of stubborn and resistant to this treatment.
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
The Body Trauma Expert: Medicating Kids Can Harm Brain Development! Eye Movement Trick That Fixes Trauma! The Secret To EMDR Therapy! - Bessel van Der Kolk
So it's called eye movement desensitization and reprocessing treatment. I was just looking up some stats about it. It says it's been extensively studied with evidence supporting its efficacy across various conditions. With PTSD, a 2014 meta-analysis of 26 randomized controlled trials found that EMDR significantly reduced PTSD symptoms with a large effect size.
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
The Body Trauma Expert: Medicating Kids Can Harm Brain Development! Eye Movement Trick That Fixes Trauma! The Secret To EMDR Therapy! - Bessel van Der Kolk
A 2024 systemic review and meta-analysis encompassing 25 studies and more than 1,000 participants reported that it alleviated depressive symptoms. The same 2014 meta-analysis noted that EMDR led to significant reductions in anxiety symptoms among PTSD patients with a large effect.
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
The Body Trauma Expert: Medicating Kids Can Harm Brain Development! Eye Movement Trick That Fixes Trauma! The Secret To EMDR Therapy! - Bessel van Der Kolk
And finally, a 2024 systemic review and individual participation data meta-analysis concluded that EMDR is as effective as other psychological treatments for PTSD, achieving comparable symptom reduction and remission rates. So can you show me how it works? Can you do it on me?
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
The Body Trauma Expert: Medicating Kids Can Harm Brain Development! Eye Movement Trick That Fixes Trauma! The Secret To EMDR Therapy! - Bessel van Der Kolk
Of course you can. Are you going to come closer?
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
The Body Trauma Expert: Medicating Kids Can Harm Brain Development! Eye Movement Trick That Fixes Trauma! The Secret To EMDR Therapy! - Bessel van Der Kolk
Yeah.
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
The Body Trauma Expert: Medicating Kids Can Harm Brain Development! Eye Movement Trick That Fixes Trauma! The Secret To EMDR Therapy! - Bessel van Der Kolk
Like a six, seven out of ten.
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
The Body Trauma Expert: Medicating Kids Can Harm Brain Development! Eye Movement Trick That Fixes Trauma! The Secret To EMDR Therapy! - Bessel van Der Kolk
Okay. So if I'm traumatized, talking about my trauma doesn't necessarily fix my trauma.
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
The Body Trauma Expert: Medicating Kids Can Harm Brain Development! Eye Movement Trick That Fixes Trauma! The Secret To EMDR Therapy! - Bessel van Der Kolk
I feel calm. Yeah, I just don't feel calm.
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
The Body Trauma Expert: Medicating Kids Can Harm Brain Development! Eye Movement Trick That Fixes Trauma! The Secret To EMDR Therapy! - Bessel van Der Kolk
It's... It's hard to recall why I was bothered.
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
The Body Trauma Expert: Medicating Kids Can Harm Brain Development! Eye Movement Trick That Fixes Trauma! The Secret To EMDR Therapy! - Bessel van Der Kolk
That's the best way to describe it.
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
The Body Trauma Expert: Medicating Kids Can Harm Brain Development! Eye Movement Trick That Fixes Trauma! The Secret To EMDR Therapy! - Bessel van Der Kolk
Why is that? Is that just because, why is that?
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
The Body Trauma Expert: Medicating Kids Can Harm Brain Development! Eye Movement Trick That Fixes Trauma! The Secret To EMDR Therapy! - Bessel van Der Kolk
Breathwork. Yeah. Yeah. What role did breathwork become a really big topic? My partner runs a business called Barney Breathwork, hashtag ad. And she takes women away. She does these breathwork retreats all around the world, has a studio, et cetera. What do you think of breathwork as a way to remove trauma?
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
The Body Trauma Expert: Medicating Kids Can Harm Brain Development! Eye Movement Trick That Fixes Trauma! The Secret To EMDR Therapy! - Bessel van Der Kolk
So you can use yoga to treat trauma?
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
The Body Trauma Expert: Medicating Kids Can Harm Brain Development! Eye Movement Trick That Fixes Trauma! The Secret To EMDR Therapy! - Bessel van Der Kolk
What did you find in those studies? I've got one particular sort of screenshot here. Yeah, that's a little story. Explain here what's going on.
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
The Body Trauma Expert: Medicating Kids Can Harm Brain Development! Eye Movement Trick That Fixes Trauma! The Secret To EMDR Therapy! - Bessel van Der Kolk
Why and how?
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
The Body Trauma Expert: Medicating Kids Can Harm Brain Development! Eye Movement Trick That Fixes Trauma! The Secret To EMDR Therapy! - Bessel van Der Kolk
So I want to make sure I understand this. So the insular part of the brain is the part that links what we do with how we feel? How we viscerally feel, yeah, what's happening in our bodies. Okay, so it links how we're feeling in our bodies to… To what we know about ourselves, yeah. The stories we have in our head about ourselves.
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
The Body Trauma Expert: Medicating Kids Can Harm Brain Development! Eye Movement Trick That Fixes Trauma! The Secret To EMDR Therapy! - Bessel van Der Kolk
So that's what the insula does, and trauma interrupts that, which causes what kind of dysfunction on a day-to-day basis.
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
The Body Trauma Expert: Medicating Kids Can Harm Brain Development! Eye Movement Trick That Fixes Trauma! The Secret To EMDR Therapy! - Bessel van Der Kolk
Or you feel hypersensitive.
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
The Body Trauma Expert: Medicating Kids Can Harm Brain Development! Eye Movement Trick That Fixes Trauma! The Secret To EMDR Therapy! - Bessel van Der Kolk
Because you talk about the two responses being disconnection or hypersensitivity.
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
The Body Trauma Expert: Medicating Kids Can Harm Brain Development! Eye Movement Trick That Fixes Trauma! The Secret To EMDR Therapy! - Bessel van Der Kolk
And how many of the people that you treated in your practice have childhood trauma?
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
The Body Trauma Expert: Medicating Kids Can Harm Brain Development! Eye Movement Trick That Fixes Trauma! The Secret To EMDR Therapy! - Bessel van Der Kolk
And the insula is playing a role.
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
The Body Trauma Expert: Medicating Kids Can Harm Brain Development! Eye Movement Trick That Fixes Trauma! The Secret To EMDR Therapy! - Bessel van Der Kolk
So if I start doing yoga, what is that then doing to that hypersensitivity disconnection?
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
The Body Trauma Expert: Medicating Kids Can Harm Brain Development! Eye Movement Trick That Fixes Trauma! The Secret To EMDR Therapy! - Bessel van Der Kolk
Really?
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
The Body Trauma Expert: Medicating Kids Can Harm Brain Development! Eye Movement Trick That Fixes Trauma! The Secret To EMDR Therapy! - Bessel van Der Kolk
Because it's...
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
The Body Trauma Expert: Medicating Kids Can Harm Brain Development! Eye Movement Trick That Fixes Trauma! The Secret To EMDR Therapy! - Bessel van Der Kolk
I was just thinking as you were speaking about a friend of mine who tends to go through life where they sort of crumpled up, Bobby. And they're low self-esteem. They're quite low confidence. I don't know if they're traumatized in any way. Can't pass judgment on that. But they started doing yoga, and it really has helped their mental health in a profound way.
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
The Body Trauma Expert: Medicating Kids Can Harm Brain Development! Eye Movement Trick That Fixes Trauma! The Secret To EMDR Therapy! - Bessel van Der Kolk
And I'm just wondering what you think the link is between someone who, I'm just telling you on the surface, is like crumpled up through their life.
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
The Body Trauma Expert: Medicating Kids Can Harm Brain Development! Eye Movement Trick That Fixes Trauma! The Secret To EMDR Therapy! - Bessel van Der Kolk
Yeah.
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
The Body Trauma Expert: Medicating Kids Can Harm Brain Development! Eye Movement Trick That Fixes Trauma! The Secret To EMDR Therapy! - Bessel van Der Kolk
The word trauma, as you say, has been thrown around a lot. And it's become a bit of a cultural joke to some people. When you say something happens to you, you go, oh, I feel triggered. I'm traumatized, et cetera. What actually does count as trauma?
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
The Body Trauma Expert: Medicating Kids Can Harm Brain Development! Eye Movement Trick That Fixes Trauma! The Secret To EMDR Therapy! - Bessel van Der Kolk
Why and how?
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
The Body Trauma Expert: Medicating Kids Can Harm Brain Development! Eye Movement Trick That Fixes Trauma! The Secret To EMDR Therapy! - Bessel van Der Kolk
People often describe meeting somebody and their body just being off. So they say, I met this person and my body was just, I just felt something in my body that they can't consciously articulate, but they just feel it in their body. This person's a bit off. What do you think they're describing there?
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
The Body Trauma Expert: Medicating Kids Can Harm Brain Development! Eye Movement Trick That Fixes Trauma! The Secret To EMDR Therapy! - Bessel van Der Kolk
And from an evolutionary standpoint, as you were speaking, I was thinking, where has this come from? You know, this ability to subconsciously just get a read for someone and then form a pattern of, okay, this type of person helped me in the past. And 20 years later, I meet someone in the street and I immediately feel the same. Is that just a survival thing?
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
The Body Trauma Expert: Medicating Kids Can Harm Brain Development! Eye Movement Trick That Fixes Trauma! The Secret To EMDR Therapy! - Bessel van Der Kolk
Are we losing that a little bit? You know, people are getting lonelier and lonelier and more individualistic.
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
The Body Trauma Expert: Medicating Kids Can Harm Brain Development! Eye Movement Trick That Fixes Trauma! The Secret To EMDR Therapy! - Bessel van Der Kolk
People talk a lot about small T trauma and big T trauma. Yeah, I'm not a fan of that. Okay. So explain why not.
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
The Body Trauma Expert: Medicating Kids Can Harm Brain Development! Eye Movement Trick That Fixes Trauma! The Secret To EMDR Therapy! - Bessel van Der Kolk
Why?
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
The Body Trauma Expert: Medicating Kids Can Harm Brain Development! Eye Movement Trick That Fixes Trauma! The Secret To EMDR Therapy! - Bessel van Der Kolk
What role does community and social connection play in trauma?
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
The Body Trauma Expert: Medicating Kids Can Harm Brain Development! Eye Movement Trick That Fixes Trauma! The Secret To EMDR Therapy! - Bessel van Der Kolk
It seems that women are better at forming those connections than men.
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
The Body Trauma Expert: Medicating Kids Can Harm Brain Development! Eye Movement Trick That Fixes Trauma! The Secret To EMDR Therapy! - Bessel van Der Kolk
Are they changeable?
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
The Body Trauma Expert: Medicating Kids Can Harm Brain Development! Eye Movement Trick That Fixes Trauma! The Secret To EMDR Therapy! - Bessel van Der Kolk
What is it about that environment that forms what you're describing there as real love?
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
The Body Trauma Expert: Medicating Kids Can Harm Brain Development! Eye Movement Trick That Fixes Trauma! The Secret To EMDR Therapy! - Bessel van Der Kolk
Is that because we would probably need each other?
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
The Body Trauma Expert: Medicating Kids Can Harm Brain Development! Eye Movement Trick That Fixes Trauma! The Secret To EMDR Therapy! - Bessel van Der Kolk
Well, also in an individualistic society, you're almost trained to not need anyone else but yourself.
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
The Body Trauma Expert: Medicating Kids Can Harm Brain Development! Eye Movement Trick That Fixes Trauma! The Secret To EMDR Therapy! - Bessel van Der Kolk
Yeah.
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
The Body Trauma Expert: Medicating Kids Can Harm Brain Development! Eye Movement Trick That Fixes Trauma! The Secret To EMDR Therapy! - Bessel van Der Kolk
Of course, yeah. I was thinking back to playing football growing up and just, you know, you're one unit effectively. And if there's a problem in this part of the pitch, then it's my problem too. If you're in trouble, I'm there to help you.
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
The Body Trauma Expert: Medicating Kids Can Harm Brain Development! Eye Movement Trick That Fixes Trauma! The Secret To EMDR Therapy! - Bessel van Der Kolk
It's really interesting because as you were talking, I was wondering how we can bring that back into our lives in the modern world.
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
The Body Trauma Expert: Medicating Kids Can Harm Brain Development! Eye Movement Trick That Fixes Trauma! The Secret To EMDR Therapy! - Bessel van Der Kolk
In a modern world where we live on screens and white walls alone. Yeah. You know, the studies say that the average, I think it said something like the average American has an average of zero people that they feel they could turn to at a time of crisis, which is down from like three, I think two decades ago. I'll have a look. I'll have a look at the stats.
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
The Body Trauma Expert: Medicating Kids Can Harm Brain Development! Eye Movement Trick That Fixes Trauma! The Secret To EMDR Therapy! - Bessel van Der Kolk
I'll pull up the stats, but the general idea of us being lonelier than ever before. And how do we, in a society that's designed to be lonely, how do I, on an individual level, fix that?
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
The Body Trauma Expert: Medicating Kids Can Harm Brain Development! Eye Movement Trick That Fixes Trauma! The Secret To EMDR Therapy! - Bessel van Der Kolk
Are you optimistic about this?
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
The Body Trauma Expert: Medicating Kids Can Harm Brain Development! Eye Movement Trick That Fixes Trauma! The Secret To EMDR Therapy! - Bessel van Der Kolk
Really?
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
The Body Trauma Expert: Medicating Kids Can Harm Brain Development! Eye Movement Trick That Fixes Trauma! The Secret To EMDR Therapy! - Bessel van Der Kolk
You're very desperate after the last election. Why?
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
The Body Trauma Expert: Medicating Kids Can Harm Brain Development! Eye Movement Trick That Fixes Trauma! The Secret To EMDR Therapy! - Bessel van Der Kolk
Yeah. So I think you're not a fan of Trump.
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
The Body Trauma Expert: Medicating Kids Can Harm Brain Development! Eye Movement Trick That Fixes Trauma! The Secret To EMDR Therapy! - Bessel van Der Kolk
Are you able to point to anything good about him? And I've, when I've had people on this show that are pro-Trump, I ask them the same questions. I say, can you point about anything bad about him? Because he's got a family.
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
The Body Trauma Expert: Medicating Kids Can Harm Brain Development! Eye Movement Trick That Fixes Trauma! The Secret To EMDR Therapy! - Bessel van Der Kolk
Going back to this point of trauma, you said that there's three broad ways to reverse the damage of trauma. So if I came to you and I was a traumatized person, whatever that trauma might be, what would step one be if I came to you for support with my trauma?
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
The Body Trauma Expert: Medicating Kids Can Harm Brain Development! Eye Movement Trick That Fixes Trauma! The Secret To EMDR Therapy! - Bessel van Der Kolk
And then once you've done that, so you find out that I had some early traumatic experience, how do you know, what treatment would you give me?
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
The Body Trauma Expert: Medicating Kids Can Harm Brain Development! Eye Movement Trick That Fixes Trauma! The Secret To EMDR Therapy! - Bessel van Der Kolk
What's neurofeedback?
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
The Body Trauma Expert: Medicating Kids Can Harm Brain Development! Eye Movement Trick That Fixes Trauma! The Secret To EMDR Therapy! - Bessel van Der Kolk
So I've got a graph up on the screen for anybody watching, and it shows five different types of brainwaves. Gamma brainwaves, which are very close brainwaves. Beta, less close. Alpha, less close. Beta, less close. And then delta, which is when you're sort of sleeping, dreaming. The waves are very, very far apart, almost flat. Yeah.
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
The Body Trauma Expert: Medicating Kids Can Harm Brain Development! Eye Movement Trick That Fixes Trauma! The Secret To EMDR Therapy! - Bessel van Der Kolk
So looking at these different types of brainwaves, if we just categorize them from one being when the brainwaves are really tight and close to five, which is delta when they're really far apart, Is one gamma, is that like anxiety or something?
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
The Body Trauma Expert: Medicating Kids Can Harm Brain Development! Eye Movement Trick That Fixes Trauma! The Secret To EMDR Therapy! - Bessel van Der Kolk
Okay, fine.
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
The Body Trauma Expert: Medicating Kids Can Harm Brain Development! Eye Movement Trick That Fixes Trauma! The Secret To EMDR Therapy! - Bessel van Der Kolk
So for the average person that comes to you, what do you typically end up telling them to do? The average person.
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
The Body Trauma Expert: Medicating Kids Can Harm Brain Development! Eye Movement Trick That Fixes Trauma! The Secret To EMDR Therapy! - Bessel van Der Kolk
A psychedelic experience. And you found yourself telling people that more and more recently.
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
The Body Trauma Expert: Medicating Kids Can Harm Brain Development! Eye Movement Trick That Fixes Trauma! The Secret To EMDR Therapy! - Bessel van Der Kolk
When you say body practices, we'll get on to psychedelics, but body practices, these are the things you're talking about, like the yoga, the martial arts.
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
The Body Trauma Expert: Medicating Kids Can Harm Brain Development! Eye Movement Trick That Fixes Trauma! The Secret To EMDR Therapy! - Bessel van Der Kolk
Massages. Any massage?
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
The Body Trauma Expert: Medicating Kids Can Harm Brain Development! Eye Movement Trick That Fixes Trauma! The Secret To EMDR Therapy! - Bessel van Der Kolk
Is touch healing?
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
The Body Trauma Expert: Medicating Kids Can Harm Brain Development! Eye Movement Trick That Fixes Trauma! The Secret To EMDR Therapy! - Bessel van Der Kolk
You know. Yeah, it's true.
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
The Body Trauma Expert: Medicating Kids Can Harm Brain Development! Eye Movement Trick That Fixes Trauma! The Secret To EMDR Therapy! - Bessel van Der Kolk
You described these three broad ways of reversing trauma, the top-down approach, which is, I guess, talk therapy? Yeah, yeah.
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
The Body Trauma Expert: Medicating Kids Can Harm Brain Development! Eye Movement Trick That Fixes Trauma! The Secret To EMDR Therapy! - Bessel van Der Kolk
And are you a fan of that?
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
The Body Trauma Expert: Medicating Kids Can Harm Brain Development! Eye Movement Trick That Fixes Trauma! The Secret To EMDR Therapy! - Bessel van Der Kolk
Number two is taking medications. Yeah. Which is to shut down the body's alarm signals, essentially. Are you a fan of that?
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
The Body Trauma Expert: Medicating Kids Can Harm Brain Development! Eye Movement Trick That Fixes Trauma! The Secret To EMDR Therapy! - Bessel van Der Kolk
And the third approach, the bottom-up approach, is allowing the body to have experiences that contradict the helplessness or rage or trauma. And this is really what you focus on, which are called somatic therapies, which target the body rather than the mind.
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
The Body Trauma Expert: Medicating Kids Can Harm Brain Development! Eye Movement Trick That Fixes Trauma! The Secret To EMDR Therapy! - Bessel van Der Kolk
In terms of energy, there are so many reasons why I'm a big matcha fan, if you don't already know by now. And so much so that I actually invested in the UK's leading matcha company called Perfect Ted. And one of my favourite Perfect Ted products is these delicious matcha pouches that come in every flavour from salted caramel to peach flavour to mint flavour to berry flavour.
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
The Body Trauma Expert: Medicating Kids Can Harm Brain Development! Eye Movement Trick That Fixes Trauma! The Secret To EMDR Therapy! - Bessel van Der Kolk
One of my favourites is this vanilla flavour, which I'm going to make... in just two seconds. You just take this mixer here, get a little bit of the powder, pop it on top of the shaker like that. Put the lid on. Shake, shake, shake. Delicious. If you haven't tried this yet, you can find Perfect Ted at Tesco and Holland Barrett stores or online where you can get 40% off with my code DIARY40.
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
The Body Trauma Expert: Medicating Kids Can Harm Brain Development! Eye Movement Trick That Fixes Trauma! The Secret To EMDR Therapy! - Bessel van Der Kolk
Head to perfectted.com and put in code DIARY40 to try this delicious multi-flavored matcha now. Highly recommend. And if you do it, please tag me, send me a message online. Can the gym help?
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
The Body Trauma Expert: Medicating Kids Can Harm Brain Development! Eye Movement Trick That Fixes Trauma! The Secret To EMDR Therapy! - Bessel van Der Kolk
So if you get fired from your job and it's a traumatic event for you because you get, I don't know, you lose your friends, you lose the job, your parents are embarrassed about you. Can that become trauma, something like that?
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
The Body Trauma Expert: Medicating Kids Can Harm Brain Development! Eye Movement Trick That Fixes Trauma! The Secret To EMDR Therapy! - Bessel van Der Kolk
Because I go to the gym, I lift weights. And so I'm wondering if that's going to help me.
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
The Body Trauma Expert: Medicating Kids Can Harm Brain Development! Eye Movement Trick That Fixes Trauma! The Secret To EMDR Therapy! - Bessel van Der Kolk
Yeah, one of the ways I think about it is actually a lot of the people that I've interviewed that are weightlifters are bullied kids. I think about Mike who I had on the show, Chrissy Chelle who I had on the show, both of them speak to, even Lane Norton actually, I think he speaks to some early trauma as well.
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
The Body Trauma Expert: Medicating Kids Can Harm Brain Development! Eye Movement Trick That Fixes Trauma! The Secret To EMDR Therapy! - Bessel van Der Kolk
They're kids that were bullied in some form or had a traumatic early upbringing and they are just massive now. And I wonder, you know, some people on the surface go, or even Liverpool actually, you're that way because you're learning to defend yourself and to build your self-esteem.
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
The Body Trauma Expert: Medicating Kids Can Harm Brain Development! Eye Movement Trick That Fixes Trauma! The Secret To EMDR Therapy! - Bessel van Der Kolk
Yeah.
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
The Body Trauma Expert: Medicating Kids Can Harm Brain Development! Eye Movement Trick That Fixes Trauma! The Secret To EMDR Therapy! - Bessel van Der Kolk
Psychedelic therapy.
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
The Body Trauma Expert: Medicating Kids Can Harm Brain Development! Eye Movement Trick That Fixes Trauma! The Secret To EMDR Therapy! - Bessel van Der Kolk
What's your view on psychedelic therapy?
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
The Body Trauma Expert: Medicating Kids Can Harm Brain Development! Eye Movement Trick That Fixes Trauma! The Secret To EMDR Therapy! - Bessel van Der Kolk
I ask this because I'm wondering if there's a lot of people listening now that I'm trying to understand if their small experience, which other people think is trivial, actually could have resulted in some kind of deeper trauma response.
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
The Body Trauma Expert: Medicating Kids Can Harm Brain Development! Eye Movement Trick That Fixes Trauma! The Secret To EMDR Therapy! - Bessel van Der Kolk
You call psychedelics a true revolution.
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
The Body Trauma Expert: Medicating Kids Can Harm Brain Development! Eye Movement Trick That Fixes Trauma! The Secret To EMDR Therapy! - Bessel van Der Kolk
Yeah. And you say it's a particular revolution because we don't know how it works. And I was looking at some stats.
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
The Body Trauma Expert: Medicating Kids Can Harm Brain Development! Eye Movement Trick That Fixes Trauma! The Secret To EMDR Therapy! - Bessel van Der Kolk
We just have a bunch of hypotheses. I was looking at some stats that say MDMA therapy assisted, which is an important point. Yeah, that's what we did, yeah. Assisted with a therapist there or someone who's a practitioner there.
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
The Body Trauma Expert: Medicating Kids Can Harm Brain Development! Eye Movement Trick That Fixes Trauma! The Secret To EMDR Therapy! - Bessel van Der Kolk
A phase three clinical trial reported that 67% of participants who received MDMA assisted therapy no longer met the PTSD criteria compared to 30 odd percent in the placebo group, which is a pretty, drastic change.
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
The Body Trauma Expert: Medicating Kids Can Harm Brain Development! Eye Movement Trick That Fixes Trauma! The Secret To EMDR Therapy! - Bessel van Der Kolk
Some really interesting studies around treatment-resistant depression as well. One with psilocybin, which is what people know as magic mushrooms. A treatment-resistant depression study in 2021 showed that a single dose of psilocybin led to a significant reduction in depression with effects lasting up to six weeks for many participants. 30% of participants were in remission after three weeks. Yep.
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
The Body Trauma Expert: Medicating Kids Can Harm Brain Development! Eye Movement Trick That Fixes Trauma! The Secret To EMDR Therapy! - Bessel van Der Kolk
And a study by Johns Hopkins University showed that 71% of participants experienced a more than 50% reduction in symptoms after two psilocybin sessions, with 54% achieving remission four weeks after the treatment. And the last study that I'll share is a follow-up study found that nearly 60% of participants maintained reductions in depression symptoms one year after treatment.
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
The Body Trauma Expert: Medicating Kids Can Harm Brain Development! Eye Movement Trick That Fixes Trauma! The Secret To EMDR Therapy! - Bessel van Der Kolk
But these compounds aren't even legal in America and the UK yet.
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
The Body Trauma Expert: Medicating Kids Can Harm Brain Development! Eye Movement Trick That Fixes Trauma! The Secret To EMDR Therapy! - Bessel van Der Kolk
Ketamine is.
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
The Body Trauma Expert: Medicating Kids Can Harm Brain Development! Eye Movement Trick That Fixes Trauma! The Secret To EMDR Therapy! - Bessel van Der Kolk
Have you ever done a psychedelic drug?
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
The Body Trauma Expert: Medicating Kids Can Harm Brain Development! Eye Movement Trick That Fixes Trauma! The Secret To EMDR Therapy! - Bessel van Der Kolk
Did that experience with psychedelics, the MDMA experience you had, change you?
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
The Body Trauma Expert: Medicating Kids Can Harm Brain Development! Eye Movement Trick That Fixes Trauma! The Secret To EMDR Therapy! - Bessel van Der Kolk
Just one dose?
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
The Body Trauma Expert: Medicating Kids Can Harm Brain Development! Eye Movement Trick That Fixes Trauma! The Secret To EMDR Therapy! - Bessel van Der Kolk
Really? Yeah. Earlier on, I asked if people could heal from their trauma.
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
The Body Trauma Expert: Medicating Kids Can Harm Brain Development! Eye Movement Trick That Fixes Trauma! The Secret To EMDR Therapy! - Bessel van Der Kolk
Have you healed from yours?
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
The Body Trauma Expert: Medicating Kids Can Harm Brain Development! Eye Movement Trick That Fixes Trauma! The Secret To EMDR Therapy! - Bessel van Der Kolk
And can you give me an overview of the work you've done in your life that have fed into all of the knowledge and information that you have? Just for anyone that might not know who you are, what is that sort of body of work?
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
The Body Trauma Expert: Medicating Kids Can Harm Brain Development! Eye Movement Trick That Fixes Trauma! The Secret To EMDR Therapy! - Bessel van Der Kolk
Of all the things that you've tried in your life to help you with your own personal trauma, what are the things that have personally helped you the most?
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
The Body Trauma Expert: Medicating Kids Can Harm Brain Development! Eye Movement Trick That Fixes Trauma! The Secret To EMDR Therapy! - Bessel van Der Kolk
I'd put my dad in this room right now. I'd put him there.
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
The Body Trauma Expert: Medicating Kids Can Harm Brain Development! Eye Movement Trick That Fixes Trauma! The Secret To EMDR Therapy! - Bessel van Der Kolk
Yeah.
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
The Body Trauma Expert: Medicating Kids Can Harm Brain Development! Eye Movement Trick That Fixes Trauma! The Secret To EMDR Therapy! - Bessel van Der Kolk
Yeah, yeah.
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
The Body Trauma Expert: Medicating Kids Can Harm Brain Development! Eye Movement Trick That Fixes Trauma! The Secret To EMDR Therapy! - Bessel van Der Kolk
Well, I put my dad at the head of the table that we're at because he was always at the head of the table in my household. He was always the one when we're at a table, he was in charge of us eating his thing.
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
The Body Trauma Expert: Medicating Kids Can Harm Brain Development! Eye Movement Trick That Fixes Trauma! The Secret To EMDR Therapy! - Bessel van Der Kolk
complicated because exactly yeah it's complicated because one of the reactions is like one of the reactions i had is when he sits there he's in charge yeah but now as an adult i have this other feeling which is like no i'm in charge now because i'm the head of the table i'm the head of my house so it's just this authority thing of like right yeah has it that would come up
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
The Body Trauma Expert: Medicating Kids Can Harm Brain Development! Eye Movement Trick That Fixes Trauma! The Secret To EMDR Therapy! - Bessel van Der Kolk
Yeah.
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
The Body Trauma Expert: Medicating Kids Can Harm Brain Development! Eye Movement Trick That Fixes Trauma! The Secret To EMDR Therapy! - Bessel van Der Kolk
So the subject matter of ADHD has become very popular in culture. In 2022, approximately 11% of children aged 3 to 17 had been diagnosed with ADHD, up from 9% roughly in 2016. And in the UK, between 2000 and 2018, ADHD diagnosis in adults rose 20-fold. What? with a 20-fold increase in medication prescriptions among men aged 18 to 29. And that's from the NHR.
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
The Body Trauma Expert: Medicating Kids Can Harm Brain Development! Eye Movement Trick That Fixes Trauma! The Secret To EMDR Therapy! - Bessel van Der Kolk
And in Australia, over the past decade, ADHD medication has surged nearly 300%, with more than a 450% increase among adults and a significant rise among women. What is going on here?
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
The Body Trauma Expert: Medicating Kids Can Harm Brain Development! Eye Movement Trick That Fixes Trauma! The Secret To EMDR Therapy! - Bessel van Der Kolk
When I spoke to Gabor Mate, do you know Gabor Mate?
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
The Body Trauma Expert: Medicating Kids Can Harm Brain Development! Eye Movement Trick That Fixes Trauma! The Secret To EMDR Therapy! - Bessel van Der Kolk
Yeah, he was describing what ADHD was to me. And he said he views it as a response to early childhood stress and trauma rather than purely genetic or neurological.
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
The Body Trauma Expert: Medicating Kids Can Harm Brain Development! Eye Movement Trick That Fixes Trauma! The Secret To EMDR Therapy! - Bessel van Der Kolk
Because I was diagnosed with ADHD, but the way... Other people that have ADHD have just like drastically different symptoms to me. Like drastically different. Like we're not the same people at all. We're not even close to the same ballpark. Like, for example, I'm really good at focusing on something for quite a long time if I'm interested.
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
The Body Trauma Expert: Medicating Kids Can Harm Brain Development! Eye Movement Trick That Fixes Trauma! The Secret To EMDR Therapy! - Bessel van Der Kolk
Whereas I often hear people with certain types of ADHD be very unfocused on things. And so I have struggled with understanding what it means to be diagnosed with ADHD when there can be so many types.
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
The Body Trauma Expert: Medicating Kids Can Harm Brain Development! Eye Movement Trick That Fixes Trauma! The Secret To EMDR Therapy! - Bessel van Der Kolk
So it almost makes me feel that... the label, the singular label, which we share, although there's all these subtypes, isn't necessarily helping me to understand myself in any way.
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
The Body Trauma Expert: Medicating Kids Can Harm Brain Development! Eye Movement Trick That Fixes Trauma! The Secret To EMDR Therapy! - Bessel van Der Kolk
Really?
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
The Body Trauma Expert: Medicating Kids Can Harm Brain Development! Eye Movement Trick That Fixes Trauma! The Secret To EMDR Therapy! - Bessel van Der Kolk
How do I not raise a traumatized kid? Because I'm going to have kids probably quite soon, hopefully. And I don't want to raise traumatized kids.
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
The Body Trauma Expert: Medicating Kids Can Harm Brain Development! Eye Movement Trick That Fixes Trauma! The Secret To EMDR Therapy! - Bessel van Der Kolk
This is central to your story, is this early experience. You said earlier that you were born in 1943.
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
The Body Trauma Expert: Medicating Kids Can Harm Brain Development! Eye Movement Trick That Fixes Trauma! The Secret To EMDR Therapy! - Bessel van Der Kolk
It takes a village.
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
The Body Trauma Expert: Medicating Kids Can Harm Brain Development! Eye Movement Trick That Fixes Trauma! The Secret To EMDR Therapy! - Bessel van Der Kolk
Is there anything that you think is healing towards trauma, childhood trauma, all forms of trauma that we haven't talked about
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
The Body Trauma Expert: Medicating Kids Can Harm Brain Development! Eye Movement Trick That Fixes Trauma! The Secret To EMDR Therapy! - Bessel van Der Kolk
And the way to recover from that is to counteract it with adult information. Yeah.
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
The Body Trauma Expert: Medicating Kids Can Harm Brain Development! Eye Movement Trick That Fixes Trauma! The Secret To EMDR Therapy! - Bessel van Der Kolk
Vessel, we have a closing tradition on this podcast where the last guest leaves a question for the next guest, not knowing who they're leaving it for. And the question that's been left for you is, what do you believe is the question that the audience have just heard this conversation are screaming down the camera?
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
The Body Trauma Expert: Medicating Kids Can Harm Brain Development! Eye Movement Trick That Fixes Trauma! The Secret To EMDR Therapy! - Bessel van Der Kolk
It was interesting as you were speaking, I was reflecting on the things that, I was thinking a lot about this idea of community and you're talking about how being in sports teams helps. And I was thinking about in my adult life, in some of my most difficult times, when things were difficult and I went and played football or some kind of sports with a group of people, I just felt radically better.
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
The Body Trauma Expert: Medicating Kids Can Harm Brain Development! Eye Movement Trick That Fixes Trauma! The Secret To EMDR Therapy! - Bessel van Der Kolk
And I think actually I put it down to, oh, well, because, you know, I did some exercise, but I actually think there's something deeper.
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
The Body Trauma Expert: Medicating Kids Can Harm Brain Development! Eye Movement Trick That Fixes Trauma! The Secret To EMDR Therapy! - Bessel van Der Kolk
Many of us, especially I think adult men, don't have these kind of things. I mean, we go to watch Manchester United play or something like that. We go to a football ground. But maybe we need to fill our lives with more of these things.
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
The Body Trauma Expert: Medicating Kids Can Harm Brain Development! Eye Movement Trick That Fixes Trauma! The Secret To EMDR Therapy! - Bessel van Der Kolk
Yeah, well, we kind of just assume that society is designed in such a way where it'll give us what we need. Yeah, yeah. But in fact, if you think about the loneliness stats and the way things, even like the pub is less pubs on the high street, shutting down across the UK and less community centers, the churches.
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
The Body Trauma Expert: Medicating Kids Can Harm Brain Development! Eye Movement Trick That Fixes Trauma! The Secret To EMDR Therapy! - Bessel van Der Kolk
Yeah. Yeah. Dr. Bessel van der Kolk, thank you so much for the work that you do. As I said to you before we started recording, you have so many extremely passionate followers, advocates, fans, because your work has made them completely rethink and understand their lived experience and also given them a much more optimistic, hopeful cure.
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
The Body Trauma Expert: Medicating Kids Can Harm Brain Development! Eye Movement Trick That Fixes Trauma! The Secret To EMDR Therapy! - Bessel van Der Kolk
or treatment for their lived experience one of which is my partner who when she she's been telling me for three years to get you on this show and was so extremely excited i think it's the happiest i've made her in the last three years when i said that you'd agreed to come on genuinely but that for me is such a personal and sort of local um sign of evidence of the impact you have on people it is tremendous so thank you on behalf of all of those people for the work that you do and please do keep on doing it because it's opening all of our eyes and you too thank you i love you sure i appreciate you thank you
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
The Body Trauma Expert: Medicating Kids Can Harm Brain Development! Eye Movement Trick That Fixes Trauma! The Secret To EMDR Therapy! - Bessel van Der Kolk
Isn't this cool? Every single conversation I have here on the Diary of a CEO, at the very end of it, you'll know, I asked the guest to leave a question in the Diary of a CEO. And what we've done is we've turned every single question written in the Diary of a CEO into these conversation cards that you can play at home.
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
The Body Trauma Expert: Medicating Kids Can Harm Brain Development! Eye Movement Trick That Fixes Trauma! The Secret To EMDR Therapy! - Bessel van Der Kolk
So you've got every guest we've ever had, their question, and on the back of it, if you scan that QR code, you get to watch the person who answered that question. We're finally revealing all of the questions and the people that answered the question. The brand new version two updated conversation cards are out right now at theconversationcards.com. They've sold out twice instantaneously.
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
The Body Trauma Expert: Medicating Kids Can Harm Brain Development! Eye Movement Trick That Fixes Trauma! The Secret To EMDR Therapy! - Bessel van Der Kolk
So if you are interested in getting hold of some limited edition conversation cards, I really, really recommend acting quickly.
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
The Body Trauma Expert: Medicating Kids Can Harm Brain Development! Eye Movement Trick That Fixes Trauma! The Secret To EMDR Therapy! - Bessel van Der Kolk
You were born in 1943 in Nazi-occupied... Netherlands. Netherlands, okay. And you're the middle children of five. That's right, yeah. You were very sick as a child. Yeah. What were your parents like in terms of love, affection, all those kinds of things?
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
The Body Trauma Expert: Medicating Kids Can Harm Brain Development! Eye Movement Trick That Fixes Trauma! The Secret To EMDR Therapy! - Bessel van Der Kolk
You described your mother as being a frozen person.
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
The Body Trauma Expert: Medicating Kids Can Harm Brain Development! Eye Movement Trick That Fixes Trauma! The Secret To EMDR Therapy! - Bessel van Der Kolk
And it had an impact on you.
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
The Body Trauma Expert: Medicating Kids Can Harm Brain Development! Eye Movement Trick That Fixes Trauma! The Secret To EMDR Therapy! - Bessel van Der Kolk
What was that impact?
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
The Body Trauma Expert: Medicating Kids Can Harm Brain Development! Eye Movement Trick That Fixes Trauma! The Secret To EMDR Therapy! - Bessel van Der Kolk
Your mother would faint whenever Bessel would ask her what her life was like when she was a little girl.
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
The Body Trauma Expert: Medicating Kids Can Harm Brain Development! Eye Movement Trick That Fixes Trauma! The Secret To EMDR Therapy! - Bessel van Der Kolk
You said that child abuse and neglect is the single most preventable cause of mental illness, the single most common cause of drug and alcohol abuse, and a significant contributor to leading causes of death, such as diabetes, heart disease, cancer, stroke, and suicide. That's true.
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
The Body Trauma Expert: Medicating Kids Can Harm Brain Development! Eye Movement Trick That Fixes Trauma! The Secret To EMDR Therapy! - Bessel van Der Kolk
And in your book, you say that eradicating child abuse in America would reduce the overall rate of depression by more than half, alcoholism by two-thirds, and suicide, drug use, and domestic violence by three-quarters.
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
The Body Trauma Expert: Medicating Kids Can Harm Brain Development! Eye Movement Trick That Fixes Trauma! The Secret To EMDR Therapy! - Bessel van Der Kolk
People have got increasingly interested in their early childhood experiences as a lens to understand who they are as adults. Is that overblown or is it important to understand?
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
The Body Trauma Expert: Medicating Kids Can Harm Brain Development! Eye Movement Trick That Fixes Trauma! The Secret To EMDR Therapy! - Bessel van Der Kolk
Quick one before we get back to this episode. Just give me 30 seconds of your time. Two things I wanted to say. The first thing is a huge thank you for listening and tuning into the show week after week. It means the world to all of us. And this really is a dream that we absolutely never had and couldn't have imagined getting to this place.