Heath Druzin
Appearances
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Theocrats on the Doorstep of Power
If you recognize that voice, it's Pastor Doug Wilson, who's a featured speaker here. Fundamentalist thinkers have come from around the country to be here. Nearly 1,500 people, according to co-founder Gabe Wrench. And that's despite a per-person ticket well north of $400. These Christian nationalists are here to put their heads together. They're planning how to take over America for Jesus.
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Theocrats on the Doorstep of Power
And they have ambitious goals. This is Pastor Toby Sumter again in a speech at the conference.
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Theocrats on the Doorstep of Power
We talked to a lot of people at the conference. They didn't pull any punches about who would be in charge in a Christian America. Christians, of course. When you talk to them, though, they're often polite, funny, and lighthearted about some heavy subjects. Gabe has a pithy term for this approach that he emphasizes in his speeches.
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Theocrats on the Doorstep of Power
Jolly as they may be, warriors are at war. And in a war, there is always an enemy. What I started to realize was to them, that enemy was me. Here's Gabe.
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Theocrats on the Doorstep of Power
Statistically speaking, there's a good chance they think of you as the enemy, too. If you're Muslim, atheist, agnostic, Hindu, Mormon, Catholic, Buddhist, you'd be out. Christian nationalist strategy isn't just ideological, though. It's practical. Remember, America is rapidly becoming less Christian— Demographics are death for Christian nationalists right now.
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Theocrats on the Doorstep of Power
And finding support from people they want to disenfranchise seems unlikely.
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Theocrats on the Doorstep of Power
That's Indiana University professor Andrew Whitehead. Andrew studies Christian nationalism and has written two books on the subject. But there's a workaround for not getting support in a democracy. If Christian nationalists get rid of entire voting blocs that might oppose their theocracy, voting blocs like women, non-Christians, anyone in the LGBTQ plus community, that starts to solve the problem.
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Theocrats on the Doorstep of Power
being in the minority isn't as much of an issue if the majority can't vote.
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Theocrats on the Doorstep of Power
And one thing we noticed at Fight, Laugh, Feast, Christian nationalists are trying to create a parallel society where as many goods and services as possible are provided by Christians. Leaders of Christian companies hawk their services on stage in between speakers. There's Christian crowdfunding in email, Christian Netflix, and a publisher putting out Christian children's books.
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Theocrats on the Doorstep of Power
When I started in 2018, I think people saw it as a really fringe movement. I certainly did too. And I definitely, even in making this podcast, there was a lot of skepticism as to whether Christian nationalists would ever really matter. But with the election of Donald Trump, I do think that a lot of that skepticism has melted away. The landscape is very different now.
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Theocrats on the Doorstep of Power
This parallel structure, parallel society, is trying to pave the way for a Christian America. And these guys are patient.
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Theocrats on the Doorstep of Power
Yeah, in the view of the Christian nationalists I talk to, it's an extremely narrow view of what Christianity can be. It's a Protestant view of it. And even more than that, really, if you're outside of the sort of Calvinist Baptist umbrella, then they don't really consider you Christian.
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Theocrats on the Doorstep of Power
So if you're Catholic, if you're Mormon, you're still in the out group in their very narrow view of what a Christian America would look like.
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Theocrats on the Doorstep of Power
Yeah, it's a pretty white movement. And Doug Wilson, who leads Christchurch, he co-wrote a pamphlet called Southern Slavery As It Was, which very much whitewashed the evils of slavery and painted the Confederacy as the victims. So there's some serious baggage there. And there's some real infighting and a bit of a civil war going on within the Christian nationalism movement.
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Theocrats on the Doorstep of Power
Trump himself has said Christians are, quote, under siege and that the left wants to tear down crosses and that we have to, quote, bring back Christianity in this country. And when Donald Trump says these things, Christian nationalists say that it's their ideology influencing the now president-elect.
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Theocrats on the Doorstep of Power
I've gone kind of down the rabbit hole and seen some people go to some dark places, mostly on the platform X, where there are elements of Christian nationalism who have really embraced anti-Semitism and racism. They've basically just, like, embraced alternative theories about the Holocaust and slavery. And then there's people...
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Theocrats on the Doorstep of Power
It's a weird thing to say, but the moderate Christian nationalists... They're a little more moderate.
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Theocrats on the Doorstep of Power
And they're pushing back like, whoa, whoa, whoa. We don't like being quote-unquote woke, but you guys are going too far and you're putting a stain on the movement. There is a big battle going on inside the movement between... The folks who see not being woke as actually being racist and the other people who are like, no, that's not what we're about. You guys need to get your head straight.
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Theocrats on the Doorstep of Power
How far can they reach? The limitation they have is that their ideas are broadly unpopular in America. but they're gaining influence, and they're gaining influence at the top of power. To many, it seems as though the theocrats are now on the doorstep of power. You've got the architect of Project 2025, Russ Vogt, who's been tapped to lead the White House Budget Office again.
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Theocrats on the Doorstep of Power
So Vogt was actually caught on a secret recording saying he wants to, quote, rehabilitate Christian nationalism. And in a speech last year for a series called The Theology of American Statecraft, he said he wants to use biblical principles to instruct government. So he's been pretty explicit about his plans. Doug Wilson, who leads Christchurch, also spoke at that event.
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Theocrats on the Doorstep of Power
You've got Fox News personality Pete Hegseth, who's been nominated to be secretary of defense. Well, he's a member of a church connected to Doug Wilson's Christian nationalist group. And he sends his kids to one of Doug Wilson's schools. And he's talked about his writings, too.
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Theocrats on the Doorstep of Power
So I think we're seeing it right there in that what's sort of ingenious about the influence campaign that Doug Wilson, sitting in Moscow, Idaho, has orchestrated, is it's this kind of intangible influence, right? What he's created is an entire ecosystem from school to church to entertainment. So if you get sucked in, all you're hearing is that ideology. And I think that's really powerful.
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Theocrats on the Doorstep of Power
My home state of Idaho has been sort of a lab for extremism in the last few years. So I think it actually can be kind of instructive as to what might be coming nationally. There's some examples where the legislature has passed laws that have really become blueprints for the rest of the country.
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Theocrats on the Doorstep of Power
Idaho had an early anti-trans bill that was used as a blueprint for later anti-trans bills that passed in other states. They also recently passed a really restrictive library bill that basically leaves libraries open to lawsuits if they are found to have harmful materials available to minors.
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Theocrats on the Doorstep of Power
Now, the definition of harmful materials is very much in the eye of the beholder and some possibilities there when it comes to books about people of color, about LGBTQ themes, things like that. And so I think what we're seeing in Idaho, it might be indicative of the kinds of pushes we're going to be seeing in this next administration.
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Theocrats on the Doorstep of Power
Yeah, Moscow, Idaho seems like a really unlikely place to be a center of Christian nationalism in the country. It's a kind of sleepy college town of about 26,000 people in north central Idaho. Kind of an idyllic area, like rolling wheat fields, a lot of agriculture around the town. Real kind of cool, quaint downtown. also a blue dot in a really red state. I live in Idaho. It's very conservative.
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Theocrats on the Doorstep of Power
As far as what Doug Wilson and his allies can achieve in the next four years, that remains to be seen. But they've said they're in a stronger position now after Trump's win.
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Theocrats on the Doorstep of Power
I can tell you that firsthand. But Moscow is one of these kind of liberal strongholds, you know, as you'll find in a lot of college towns. So it's a little weird that it's become this kind of center for this unyielding, pretty far-right Christian nationalist church called Christchurch. The pastor of Christchurch is Doug Wilson. He leads a congregation of 800 to 900 people.
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Theocrats on the Doorstep of Power
He's a Navy veteran in his early 70s and a prolific author of Christian-themed books. He spent most of his adult life evangelizing and developing a conservative Christian education model. And he's kind of built this network from Moscow where he's had a lot of influence.
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Theocrats on the Doorstep of Power
He and his church members have been able to buy up some key real estate, also working on a housing development on the edge of town. So a lot of their influence is through money and real estate right now. And that's been alarming a lot of people in town because the stated goal of Christchurch, locally at least, is to make Moscow a Christian town.
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Theocrats on the Doorstep of Power
Doug Wilson and his associates at Christchurch, they want a kind of local theocracy where the political power is held only by people who identify as Christian. Now, they haven't had much luck at the ballot box because it's a liberal town. But what's been fascinating and what kind of drew me to the story is that the fight over the town is, you know, it's really dramatic and interesting.
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Theocrats on the Doorstep of Power
But you could argue that he actually has more influence nationally. Because Doug Wilson, he's built up, well, what my co-reporter James Dawson on the podcast termed a, quote, Christian industrial complex. He's got this church in Moscow, but he also has churches across the country and across the world.
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Theocrats on the Doorstep of Power
More importantly, he's built up a Christian educational empire where he's got nearly 500 schools across the country, coast to coast, in nearly every state in the country. And as he told me, he sees his educational enterprises as munitions factories. He likes to use war terminology. So, you know, he sees his students as basically foot soldiers in the culture wars that he wants to win.
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Theocrats on the Doorstep of Power
And the school system has been really effective, as has his media empire. He's got popular streaming shows. He's got a publishing house called Canon Press that churns out dozens of titles. He himself has written dozens of books, and they've been pretty influential in these circles. Secularism is resting on America like a dense fog.
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Theocrats on the Doorstep of Power
That's Doug Wilson speaking to me in Moscow, Idaho, for the podcast in 2023.
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Theocrats on the Doorstep of Power
As far as the Christian nationalist label, they've become more and more comfortable with it. They really don't, for the most part, don't shy away from it anymore, even if they say it's coming from people that they disagree with originally. The way I got access was I just asked, and I was up front with them.
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Theocrats on the Doorstep of Power
I said, you know, I'm sure you won't like everything in my podcast, and you're going to hear from a lot of people who are really critical of you, but I do want to hear you out, and I want to get your voice in there. So they did end up talking to me, but what I quickly realized is that I think a big reason they talked to me is simply because they're very proud of what they're doing.
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Theocrats on the Doorstep of Power
When I'm telling you what their plans are, what their ideology is and what they think, I'm not telling you what I think it is. They said it all into my microphone and they were very direct. They want America to be a Christian nation, explicitly Christian nation, just kind of saying it like it is in their mind.
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Theocrats on the Doorstep of Power
Hey, Gabe. How you doing? I'm talking to Gabriel Wrench, a media personality and activist in Idaho. Most people call him Gabe. Okay. Gabe has a lot of ideas about how America should change. You said it would probably take a long time, but that you would like to see only Christians be able to run for office. So if you're Jewish, if you're Muslim, if you're atheist, certainly.
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Theocrats on the Doorstep of Power
If I had you right, you said that, yes, you would support eventually them not being allowed to run for office.
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Theocrats on the Doorstep of Power
Right. So Christian nationalism is a pretty broad movement. It can mean a lot of different things, but there are some unifying ideologies in the movement. One big example is something called dominionism. Now, that's sort of a jargony term, but really what it means is that Christianity should rule all aspects of life. and that Christ's teachings should be the foundation for all of society.
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Theocrats on the Doorstep of Power
So I'll tell you straight up, as a Jewish American, I hear that, that I can't run for office. Other non-Christians can't. And I have to admit, it's a little terrifying to me because to me, that means a fundamental freedom of mine in this theoretical world is gone.
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Theocrats on the Doorstep of Power
So Gabe wants biblical law to apply to everyone. That means a lot less democracy, especially for non-Christians like me. I should probably pause a moment here to acknowledge the bizarre journey I've been on for the past year. I've mentioned before that I'm Jewish, and it has been surreal to be immersed in this world of Christian nationalism.
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Theocrats on the Doorstep of Power
Don't get me wrong, people like Gabe have been unfailingly polite, which frankly makes it weirder. I'm being politely told I don't deserve key rights. But the reason I'm here listening to Gabe explain why I should lose my rights is not to feel uncomfortable. It's because plenty of people agree with him.
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Theocrats on the Doorstep of Power
Gabe is part of a younger vanguard of Christian nationalists trying to make their vision a reality. And they're spreading their word through popular streaming shows, including Gabe's creation, CrossPolitik.
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Theocrats on the Doorstep of Power
I mean, CrossPolitik is a mashup of fundamentalist religion, politics, and drinking.
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Theocrats on the Doorstep of Power
These aren't the megachurch pastors of yore with their faith healing and fire and brimstone. Those guys focused on arena-sized church crowds. Gabe and his allies use popular streaming shows and savvy social media. They have followers around the country. They write books extolling the patriarchy and want their followers to get political and get more Christ into government.
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Theocrats on the Doorstep of Power
Gabe and his Christian nationalist peers are a whiskey-drinking, cigar-smoking set that favor expensive boots and well-coiffed hair.
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Theocrats on the Doorstep of Power
Kind of hipster theocrats with a distinctly bro motif. And business is good. A little cinnamon. These guys have popular books, a large podcast, and a YouTube channel with about 20,000 subscribers.
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Theocrats on the Doorstep of Power
And each year, leading Christian nationalist thinkers, as well as rank-and-file believers, gather at a conference.
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Theocrats on the Doorstep of Power
It's official. It's official. This is Gabe's creation. Fight, Laugh, Feast is four days of fundamentalist Christians talking to Christians about being Christian.
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Theocrats on the Doorstep of Power
So Jimmy and I went. We flew across the country to where Gabe and his compatriots were brainstorming a Christian takeover of America. We're in the Northern Kentucky countryside.
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Theocrats on the Doorstep of Power
The landscape is rolling and wooded with lots of farms and, of course, distilleries. But we're not here just as an excuse to go bourbon tasting. We're here to attend Fight Laugh Feast. The theme is the politics of the six days of creation. This, of course, is the granddaddy of Bible verses, Genesis 1. In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth.
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Theocrats on the Doorstep of Power
From there, each day God creates a new facet of the earth. And on the seventh day, he rests. And yeah, Christian nationalists definitely go with he.
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Theocrats on the Doorstep of Power
And, you know, I've been covering extremism since 2018, just looking at how extremism interacts with politics. And a lot of my early coverage was about militias. I covered the COVID lockdown pushback, which was really strong in Idaho especially, and even, you know, elected officials pushing conspiracy theories. Eventually, my reporting turned to Christian nationalism.
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Theocrats on the Doorstep of Power
That's Toby Sumter, a pastor and a Christchurch affiliate, and one of Gabe's co-hosts on the show CrossPolitik. If you're wondering about the dragons, it's Revelations 12.3. And unicorns are actually mentioned throughout the Bible. Fight, Laugh, Feast is billed as a conference, but it feels more like a festival. Or this year, even a political convention.
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Theocrats on the Doorstep of Power
Because everyone we talk to here thinks America should be a Christian nation.