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Harry Stebbings

Appearances

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: AI Scaling Myths: More Compute is not the Answer | The Core Bottlenecks in AI Today: Data, Algorithms and Compute | The Future of Models: Open vs Closed, Small vs Large with Arvind Narayanan, Professor of Computer Science @ Princeton

113.914

And talking about incredible companies with Commandbar, I want to talk to you about a new venture fund making waves by taking a very different approach. It's a public venture fund anyone can invest in. not just institutions and accredited investors. The Fundrise Innovation Fund is democratizing venture capital, which could have big consequences for the industry.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: AI Scaling Myths: More Compute is not the Answer | The Core Bottlenecks in AI Today: Data, Algorithms and Compute | The Future of Models: Open vs Closed, Small vs Large with Arvind Narayanan, Professor of Computer Science @ Princeton

133.607

The fund is already off to a good start with $100 million into some of the largest, most in-demand AI and data infrastructure companies. Companies like OpenAI, Anthropic, and Databricks. Check out the Innovation Fund's impressive list of investments for yourself by visiting fundrise.com slash 20VC.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: AI Scaling Myths: More Compute is not the Answer | The Core Bottlenecks in AI Today: Data, Algorithms and Compute | The Future of Models: Open vs Closed, Small vs Large with Arvind Narayanan, Professor of Computer Science @ Princeton

152.884

Carefully consider the investment material before investing, including objectives, risks, charges and expenses. This and other information can be found in the Innovation Fund's prospectus at fundrise.com slash innovation. This is a paid sponsorship. And finally, let's talk about Squarespace. Squarespace is the all-in-one website platform for entrepreneurs to stand out and succeed online.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: AI Scaling Myths: More Compute is not the Answer | The Core Bottlenecks in AI Today: Data, Algorithms and Compute | The Future of Models: Open vs Closed, Small vs Large with Arvind Narayanan, Professor of Computer Science @ Princeton

175.585

Whether you're just starting out or managing a growing brand, Squarespace makes it easy to create a beautiful website, engage with your audience, and sell anything from products to content, all in one place, all on your terms. What's blown me away is the Squarespace Blueprint AI and SEO tools.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: AI Scaling Myths: More Compute is not the Answer | The Core Bottlenecks in AI Today: Data, Algorithms and Compute | The Future of Models: Open vs Closed, Small vs Large with Arvind Narayanan, Professor of Computer Science @ Princeton

191.295

It's like crafting your site with a guided system, ensuring it not only reflects your unique style, but also ranks well on search engines. Plus, their flexible payment options cater to every customer's needs, making transactions smooth and hassle-free. And the Squarespace AI? It's a content wizard helping you whip up text that truly resonates with your brand voice.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: AI Scaling Myths: More Compute is not the Answer | The Core Bottlenecks in AI Today: Data, Algorithms and Compute | The Future of Models: Open vs Closed, Small vs Large with Arvind Narayanan, Professor of Computer Science @ Princeton

210.683

So if you're ready to get started, head to squarespace.com for a free trial. And when you're ready to launch, go to squarespace.com slash 20VC and use the code 20VC to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: AI Scaling Myths: More Compute is not the Answer | The Core Bottlenecks in AI Today: Data, Algorithms and Compute | The Future of Models: Open vs Closed, Small vs Large with Arvind Narayanan, Professor of Computer Science @ Princeton

2941.26

But before we leave you today, all of you listening use tons of software every day. Sometimes it fills us with rage. You can't figure something out. The chatbot in the bottom right is useless. You keep getting bombarded with these useless pop-ups. And for those of you who build products, no one wants their product to feel like this. Thankfully, a company exists to help users without annoying them.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: AI Scaling Myths: More Compute is not the Answer | The Core Bottlenecks in AI Today: Data, Algorithms and Compute | The Future of Models: Open vs Closed, Small vs Large with Arvind Narayanan, Professor of Computer Science @ Princeton

2961.13

CommandBar. It does a couple of very helpful things. First, it's a chatbot that uses AI to give users extremely personalized responses and deflect tickets. But it can be beyond just text. It can also co-browse with the user and show them how to do things inside the UI. Magic.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: AI Scaling Myths: More Compute is not the Answer | The Core Bottlenecks in AI Today: Data, Algorithms and Compute | The Future of Models: Open vs Closed, Small vs Large with Arvind Narayanan, Professor of Computer Science @ Princeton

2977.142

But it can also detect when users would benefit from a proactive nudge, like a helpful hint, or an invitation to start a free trial. CommandBar is already used by world-class companies like Gusto, HashiCorp, Yotpo, and Angelist. If you're a product CX or marketing leader, check them out at commandbar.com slash harry.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: AI Scaling Myths: More Compute is not the Answer | The Core Bottlenecks in AI Today: Data, Algorithms and Compute | The Future of Models: Open vs Closed, Small vs Large with Arvind Narayanan, Professor of Computer Science @ Princeton

2994.719

And talking about incredible companies with Command Bar, I want to talk to you about a new venture fund making waves by taking a very different approach. It's a public venture fund anyone can invest in, not just institutions and accredited investors. The Fundrise Innovation Fund is democratizing venture capital, which could have big consequences for the industry.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: AI Scaling Myths: More Compute is not the Answer | The Core Bottlenecks in AI Today: Data, Algorithms and Compute | The Future of Models: Open vs Closed, Small vs Large with Arvind Narayanan, Professor of Computer Science @ Princeton

3014.392

The fund is already off to a good start with $100 million into some of the largest, most in-demand AI and data infrastructure companies. Companies like OpenAI, Anthropic, and Databricks. Check out the Innovation Fund's impressive list of investments for yourself by visiting fundrise.com slash 20VC.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: AI Scaling Myths: More Compute is not the Answer | The Core Bottlenecks in AI Today: Data, Algorithms and Compute | The Future of Models: Open vs Closed, Small vs Large with Arvind Narayanan, Professor of Computer Science @ Princeton

3033.688

Carefully consider the investment material before investing, including objectives, risks, charges and expenses. This and other information can be found in the Innovation Fund's prospectus at fundrise.com slash innovation. This is a paid sponsorship. And finally, let's talk about Squarespace. Squarespace is the all-in-one website platform for entrepreneurs to stand out and succeed online.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: AI Scaling Myths: More Compute is not the Answer | The Core Bottlenecks in AI Today: Data, Algorithms and Compute | The Future of Models: Open vs Closed, Small vs Large with Arvind Narayanan, Professor of Computer Science @ Princeton

3056.39

Whether you're just starting out or managing a growing brand, Squarespace makes it easy to create a beautiful website, engage with your audience, and sell anything from products to content, all in one place, all on your terms. What's blown me away is the Squarespace Blueprint AI and SEO tools.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: AI Scaling Myths: More Compute is not the Answer | The Core Bottlenecks in AI Today: Data, Algorithms and Compute | The Future of Models: Open vs Closed, Small vs Large with Arvind Narayanan, Professor of Computer Science @ Princeton

3072.085

It's like crafting your site with a guided system, ensuring it not only reflects your unique style, but also ranks well on search engines. Plus, their flexible payment options cater to every customer's needs, making transactions smooth and hassle-free. And the Squarespace AI? It's a content wizard helping you whip up text that truly resonates with your brand voice.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: AI Scaling Myths: More Compute is not the Answer | The Core Bottlenecks in AI Today: Data, Algorithms and Compute | The Future of Models: Open vs Closed, Small vs Large with Arvind Narayanan, Professor of Computer Science @ Princeton

3091.502

So if you're ready to get started, head to squarespace.com for a free trial. And when you're ready to launch, go to squarespace.com slash 20VC and use the code 20VC to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: AI Scaling Myths: More Compute is not the Answer | The Core Bottlenecks in AI Today: Data, Algorithms and Compute | The Future of Models: Open vs Closed, Small vs Large with Arvind Narayanan, Professor of Computer Science @ Princeton

60.458

But before we dive in today, all of you listening use tons of software every day. Sometimes it fills us with rage. You can't figure something out. The chatbot in the bottom right is useless. You keep getting bombarded with these useless pop-ups. And for those of you who build products, no one wants their product to feel like this. Thankfully, a company exists to help users without annoying them.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: AI Scaling Myths: More Compute is not the Answer | The Core Bottlenecks in AI Today: Data, Algorithms and Compute | The Future of Models: Open vs Closed, Small vs Large with Arvind Narayanan, Professor of Computer Science @ Princeton

80.33

CommandBar. It does a couple of very helpful things. First, it's a chatbot that uses AI to give users extremely personalized responses and deflect tickets. But it can be beyond just text. It can also co-browse with the user and show them how to do things inside the UI. Magic.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: AI Scaling Myths: More Compute is not the Answer | The Core Bottlenecks in AI Today: Data, Algorithms and Compute | The Future of Models: Open vs Closed, Small vs Large with Arvind Narayanan, Professor of Computer Science @ Princeton

96.341

But it can also detect when users would benefit from a proactive nudge, like a helpful hint, or an invitation to start a free trial. CommandBar is already used by world-class companies like Gusto, HashiCorp, Yotpo, and Angelist. If you're a product CX or marketing leader, check them out at commandbar.com slash harry.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Benchmark's Eric Vishria on Where is the Value in AI: Chips, Models or Apps | Why Nvidia Will Not Be The Only Game in Town | The Commoditisation of Foundation Models | Which AI Apps Have Sustaining Value vs Hype and Short Term Revenue

101.368

If you're a product CX or marketing leader, check them out at commandbar.com slash harry. And talking about incredible companies with Command Bar, I want to talk to you about a new venture fund making waves by taking a very different approach. It's a public venture fund anyone can invest in. not just institutions and accredited investors.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Benchmark's Eric Vishria on Where is the Value in AI: Chips, Models or Apps | Why Nvidia Will Not Be The Only Game in Town | The Commoditisation of Foundation Models | Which AI Apps Have Sustaining Value vs Hype and Short Term Revenue

1051.98

You said about markets being large enough to support massive companies. How do you think about market creation?

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Benchmark's Eric Vishria on Where is the Value in AI: Chips, Models or Apps | Why Nvidia Will Not Be The Only Game in Town | The Commoditisation of Foundation Models | Which AI Apps Have Sustaining Value vs Hype and Short Term Revenue

1182.372

I totally agree with you. But what on earth do you do in this? And we're totally switching tasks to AI companies. But in this sea of AI companies, we're both in 11x together. Great. Love Hasan. Fantastic. But there's a lot of other competitors to 11x. I'm with you. I've met five medical scribe companies. I thought Nabla was the best. But there were like 20.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Benchmark's Eric Vishria on Where is the Value in AI: Chips, Models or Apps | Why Nvidia Will Not Be The Only Game in Town | The Commoditisation of Foundation Models | Which AI Apps Have Sustaining Value vs Hype and Short Term Revenue

120.433

The Fundrise Innovation Fund is democratizing venture capital, which could have big consequences for the industry. The fund is already off to a good start with $100 million into some of the largest, most in-demand AI and data infrastructure companies. Companies like OpenAI, Anthropic, and Databricks.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Benchmark's Eric Vishria on Where is the Value in AI: Chips, Models or Apps | Why Nvidia Will Not Be The Only Game in Town | The Commoditisation of Foundation Models | Which AI Apps Have Sustaining Value vs Hype and Short Term Revenue

1204.747

And I don't have a freaking clue who's going to win. So how do you filter when everyone does the same, says the same?

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Benchmark's Eric Vishria on Where is the Value in AI: Chips, Models or Apps | Why Nvidia Will Not Be The Only Game in Town | The Commoditisation of Foundation Models | Which AI Apps Have Sustaining Value vs Hype and Short Term Revenue

1317.18

I totally agree. My worry is in a lot of these cases, the quality of product does not matter as much as the existing distribution moats that incumbents have. Could be. Like AI medical scribes, great example. Microsoft has such large enterprise.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Benchmark's Eric Vishria on Where is the Value in AI: Chips, Models or Apps | Why Nvidia Will Not Be The Only Game in Town | The Commoditisation of Foundation Models | Which AI Apps Have Sustaining Value vs Hype and Short Term Revenue

1334.565

Just crush everyone. You're a 10% better product. Agreed, better product. But they just crush everyone with bundled packaging.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Benchmark's Eric Vishria on Where is the Value in AI: Chips, Models or Apps | Why Nvidia Will Not Be The Only Game in Town | The Commoditisation of Foundation Models | Which AI Apps Have Sustaining Value vs Hype and Short Term Revenue

1359.998

Eric, does AI allow companies to charge more price per seat and have better revenues? Or does it merely denigrate their margins because of the increased cost of implementing AI?

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Benchmark's Eric Vishria on Where is the Value in AI: Chips, Models or Apps | Why Nvidia Will Not Be The Only Game in Town | The Commoditisation of Foundation Models | Which AI Apps Have Sustaining Value vs Hype and Short Term Revenue

138.297

Check out the Innovation Fund's impressive list of investments for yourself by visiting fundrise.com slash 20VC. Carefully consider the investment material before investing, including objectives, risks, charges, and expenses. This and other information can be found in the Innovation Fund's prospectus at fundrise.com slash innovation. This is a paid sponsorship.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Benchmark's Eric Vishria on Where is the Value in AI: Chips, Models or Apps | Why Nvidia Will Not Be The Only Game in Town | The Commoditisation of Foundation Models | Which AI Apps Have Sustaining Value vs Hype and Short Term Revenue

1511.449

Those companies in that trajectory are scaling revenues faster than ever. I remember when it was like, oh my gosh, they got to 10 million ARR in such a, now it's just completely different in terms of revenue scaling. How do you determine and think about analyzing revenue quality? And I've heard you set before sugar high revenue versus sustainable revenue.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Benchmark's Eric Vishria on Where is the Value in AI: Chips, Models or Apps | Why Nvidia Will Not Be The Only Game in Town | The Commoditisation of Foundation Models | Which AI Apps Have Sustaining Value vs Hype and Short Term Revenue

160.62

And finally, let's talk about Squarespace. Squarespace is the all-in-one website platform for entrepreneurs to stand out and succeed online. Whether you're just starting out or managing a growing brand, Squarespace makes it easy to create a beautiful website, engage with your audience, and sell anything from products to content, all in one place, all on your terms.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Benchmark's Eric Vishria on Where is the Value in AI: Chips, Models or Apps | Why Nvidia Will Not Be The Only Game in Town | The Commoditisation of Foundation Models | Which AI Apps Have Sustaining Value vs Hype and Short Term Revenue

1626.724

But I find it kind of paradoxical because you've got two questions here, which is the $600 billion AI question. Thanks, David Kahn. The CapEx spend is so much and the revenues are trailing so far behind. And then you also have the speed of revenue scaling is faster than ever. Oh, my gosh. They almost seem at odds.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Benchmark's Eric Vishria on Where is the Value in AI: Chips, Models or Apps | Why Nvidia Will Not Be The Only Game in Town | The Commoditisation of Foundation Models | Which AI Apps Have Sustaining Value vs Hype and Short Term Revenue

1780.322

How do you think about value in the stack? When we think about where value in the stack is today, it's obviously in compute. NVIDIA has seen that. It's also in models with open AI. Your partner Sarah wrote that models are the fastest commoditizing technology ever, which is a great statement. I've used it a couple of times in shows.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Benchmark's Eric Vishria on Where is the Value in AI: Chips, Models or Apps | Why Nvidia Will Not Be The Only Game in Town | The Commoditisation of Foundation Models | Which AI Apps Have Sustaining Value vs Hype and Short Term Revenue

1798.814

How do you think about where value accrues in the stack and where you need to spend most time aligned to that?

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Benchmark's Eric Vishria on Where is the Value in AI: Chips, Models or Apps | Why Nvidia Will Not Be The Only Game in Town | The Commoditisation of Foundation Models | Which AI Apps Have Sustaining Value vs Hype and Short Term Revenue

180.21

What's blown me away is the Squarespace Blueprint AI and SEO tools. It's like crafting your site with a guided system. ensuring it not only reflects your unique style, but also ranks well on search engines. Plus, their flexible payment options cater to every customer's needs, making transactions smooth and hassle-free. And the Squarespace AI?

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Benchmark's Eric Vishria on Where is the Value in AI: Chips, Models or Apps | Why Nvidia Will Not Be The Only Game in Town | The Commoditisation of Foundation Models | Which AI Apps Have Sustaining Value vs Hype and Short Term Revenue

1952.227

Does AI today, do AI rounds break the benchmark model? And I mean that slightly deliberately, provocatively. But your fund sizes are very disciplined. You are hailed as the boutique provider of venture. Very tailored, very artisan. But these rounds are often, you mentioned some of the software creation AI companies. These rounds are like $50 million starting price.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Benchmark's Eric Vishria on Where is the Value in AI: Chips, Models or Apps | Why Nvidia Will Not Be The Only Game in Town | The Commoditisation of Foundation Models | Which AI Apps Have Sustaining Value vs Hype and Short Term Revenue

199.223

It's a content wizard helping you whip up text that truly resonates with your brand voice. So if you're ready to get started, head to squarespace.com for a free trial. And when you're ready to launch, go to squarespace.com and use the code 20VC to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain. You have now arrived at your destination. Eric, I am so excited for this, man.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Benchmark's Eric Vishria on Where is the Value in AI: Chips, Models or Apps | Why Nvidia Will Not Be The Only Game in Town | The Commoditisation of Foundation Models | Which AI Apps Have Sustaining Value vs Hype and Short Term Revenue

2011.977

Does it not just impact your decision-making? I totally get you. Of course you could. Every LP wants to be in Benchmark. It's the one fund that every LP is like, oh, I want Benchmark. I totally get it. Of course they do. But if you have a 500 fund, you're just not as likely to write a 50 or a $75 million check.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Benchmark's Eric Vishria on Where is the Value in AI: Chips, Models or Apps | Why Nvidia Will Not Be The Only Game in Town | The Commoditisation of Foundation Models | Which AI Apps Have Sustaining Value vs Hype and Short Term Revenue

2092.325

Do you not think it helps provide a lens of focus to narrow your examination of where to spend time?

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Benchmark's Eric Vishria on Where is the Value in AI: Chips, Models or Apps | Why Nvidia Will Not Be The Only Game in Town | The Commoditisation of Foundation Models | Which AI Apps Have Sustaining Value vs Hype and Short Term Revenue

2145.419

Do you think that you always need to play the game on the field? Bill Gurley, your partner, said that once, and I oscillate.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Benchmark's Eric Vishria on Where is the Value in AI: Chips, Models or Apps | Why Nvidia Will Not Be The Only Game in Town | The Commoditisation of Foundation Models | Which AI Apps Have Sustaining Value vs Hype and Short Term Revenue

2214.197

To what extent with AI do you think we are overestimating what we can do in one year and we're all getting ahead of our skis?

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Benchmark's Eric Vishria on Where is the Value in AI: Chips, Models or Apps | Why Nvidia Will Not Be The Only Game in Town | The Commoditisation of Foundation Models | Which AI Apps Have Sustaining Value vs Hype and Short Term Revenue

222.302

We've been waiting. I think it was like five or six years since our last one, at least. So thank you so much for joining me today. You look older, Harry. The Botox isn't working. But I was just listening to you on another show, actually. Not nearly as good as mine, by the way. You said that as a CEO, you felt you fell short. And it didn't really go anywhere from there in that conversation.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Benchmark's Eric Vishria on Where is the Value in AI: Chips, Models or Apps | Why Nvidia Will Not Be The Only Game in Town | The Commoditisation of Foundation Models | Which AI Apps Have Sustaining Value vs Hype and Short Term Revenue

2281.919

I heard you say once when it came to Cerebrus that Peter's role as your partner was to help enhance your instincts.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Benchmark's Eric Vishria on Where is the Value in AI: Chips, Models or Apps | Why Nvidia Will Not Be The Only Game in Town | The Commoditisation of Foundation Models | Which AI Apps Have Sustaining Value vs Hype and Short Term Revenue

2291.784

He's amazing. I have such a man crush on Peter. I haven't told him, and so it's lucky that this isn't a podcast. My question to you there is, is that not dangerous? Should a partner not be the counterbalance, not the Duracell battery to your energy?

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Benchmark's Eric Vishria on Where is the Value in AI: Chips, Models or Apps | Why Nvidia Will Not Be The Only Game in Town | The Commoditisation of Foundation Models | Which AI Apps Have Sustaining Value vs Hype and Short Term Revenue

245.621

And I wanted to understand why... As a CEO, you think you fell short as specifically as possible?

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Benchmark's Eric Vishria on Where is the Value in AI: Chips, Models or Apps | Why Nvidia Will Not Be The Only Game in Town | The Commoditisation of Foundation Models | Which AI Apps Have Sustaining Value vs Hype and Short Term Revenue

2561.793

In the deals where your partners have saved you, as you mentioned many times, what did they see that you did not see most often?

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Benchmark's Eric Vishria on Where is the Value in AI: Chips, Models or Apps | Why Nvidia Will Not Be The Only Game in Town | The Commoditisation of Foundation Models | Which AI Apps Have Sustaining Value vs Hype and Short Term Revenue

2640.558

So I was talking to my, my partner the other day who comes out of DST. And so he's like trained on like gross margin and like real numbers guy. And he's like, oh, the gross margin of 3 million in ARR. And I'm like, dude, no one gives a fuck. No one gives a fuck. It's 3 million in ARR. The gross margin in 10 years, I've got no idea what it'll be like.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Benchmark's Eric Vishria on Where is the Value in AI: Chips, Models or Apps | Why Nvidia Will Not Be The Only Game in Town | The Commoditisation of Foundation Models | Which AI Apps Have Sustaining Value vs Hype and Short Term Revenue

2661.504

And even then, if it's still a shit gross margin and it's go-go times, we can still get a great multiple. And if it's amazing and shit times, the IPO market, there's so many fucking variables. I don't have a clue.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Benchmark's Eric Vishria on Where is the Value in AI: Chips, Models or Apps | Why Nvidia Will Not Be The Only Game in Town | The Commoditisation of Foundation Models | Which AI Apps Have Sustaining Value vs Hype and Short Term Revenue

2754.409

Can I ask you, in terms of like how you spend your time, I spoke to Victor on your team and he said Eric is so unlike most other VCs. He spends like 70% of his time with his portfolio. Yeah, at least. I would love to understand how you think about the makeup of your time between sourcing, picking and doing diligence and doing references and then servicing, helping portfolio.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Benchmark's Eric Vishria on Where is the Value in AI: Chips, Models or Apps | Why Nvidia Will Not Be The Only Game in Town | The Commoditisation of Foundation Models | Which AI Apps Have Sustaining Value vs Hype and Short Term Revenue

29.85

This is 20VC with me, Harry Stebbings, and today we have Eric Vichry, a general partner at Benchmark, joining me in the hot seat. Now, what is amazing about Eric is the breadth of his investing success. From Benchling, to Amplitude, to Cerebrus, to Confluent, these are incredible companies, but in totally uncorrelated and different industries.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Benchmark's Eric Vishria on Where is the Value in AI: Chips, Models or Apps | Why Nvidia Will Not Be The Only Game in Town | The Commoditisation of Foundation Models | Which AI Apps Have Sustaining Value vs Hype and Short Term Revenue

2903.45

Does that not go against being non-consensus? Seeing the beauty which others don't? Not necessarily. Because you have to get a quorum, so you need to get three out of the five.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Benchmark's Eric Vishria on Where is the Value in AI: Chips, Models or Apps | Why Nvidia Will Not Be The Only Game in Town | The Commoditisation of Foundation Models | Which AI Apps Have Sustaining Value vs Hype and Short Term Revenue

2984.508

Okay, we're going to do two types of quickfire. One's a short quickfire, one's a slightly longer one. Quickfire on people. You've got one takeaway from working with Gurley, Fanton and Matt Kohler. Okay, I just chose them because they're my favorites. So what's the biggest takeaway from working with Gurley?

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Benchmark's Eric Vishria on Where is the Value in AI: Chips, Models or Apps | Why Nvidia Will Not Be The Only Game in Town | The Commoditisation of Foundation Models | Which AI Apps Have Sustaining Value vs Hype and Short Term Revenue

3136.04

I remember also when I was debating whether I should get more operating experience before becoming an investor. He was like, do you want to be an investor? And I was like, yeah. He's like, then invest.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Benchmark's Eric Vishria on Where is the Value in AI: Chips, Models or Apps | Why Nvidia Will Not Be The Only Game in Town | The Commoditisation of Foundation Models | Which AI Apps Have Sustaining Value vs Hype and Short Term Revenue

3197.079

That's a good one. Credit to you, Eric. That's fantastic. Which venture investor outside of Benchmark do you most respect?

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Benchmark's Eric Vishria on Where is the Value in AI: Chips, Models or Apps | Why Nvidia Will Not Be The Only Game in Town | The Commoditisation of Foundation Models | Which AI Apps Have Sustaining Value vs Hype and Short Term Revenue

322.563

But something is wrong there. If you think about that as an investor today, you're like, it's either wrong team, wrong market, wrong product, wrong time. Something is the inhibitor there.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Benchmark's Eric Vishria on Where is the Value in AI: Chips, Models or Apps | Why Nvidia Will Not Be The Only Game in Town | The Commoditisation of Foundation Models | Which AI Apps Have Sustaining Value vs Hype and Short Term Revenue

3293.196

Are you ready for my hardest one? Okay. Off schedule. This is like for true pros. The heaviest things in life are not iron or gold, but unmade decisions. What unmade decision do you have that weighs on you most? I don't know.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Benchmark's Eric Vishria on Where is the Value in AI: Chips, Models or Apps | Why Nvidia Will Not Be The Only Game in Town | The Commoditisation of Foundation Models | Which AI Apps Have Sustaining Value vs Hype and Short Term Revenue

3421.866

Reminds me of the businessman and the fisherman. I don't know if you've heard that one. I haven't heard it.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Benchmark's Eric Vishria on Where is the Value in AI: Chips, Models or Apps | Why Nvidia Will Not Be The Only Game in Town | The Commoditisation of Foundation Models | Which AI Apps Have Sustaining Value vs Hype and Short Term Revenue

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Drink beer and chill. Yep, pretty much. An ultimate one, you can call yourself up before the birth of your first child and say, Eric, you should know this. What would you say? Man, it's hard. LAUGHTER What was the hardest?

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20VC: Benchmark's Eric Vishria on Where is the Value in AI: Chips, Models or Apps | Why Nvidia Will Not Be The Only Game in Town | The Commoditisation of Foundation Models | Which AI Apps Have Sustaining Value vs Hype and Short Term Revenue

3493.948

I'm so well trained then. In the week, I have venture, which is the easy part. And on the weekend, I have just back to back to back media stuff and Saturday and Sunday. And so I'm knackered coming into Monday.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Benchmark's Eric Vishria on Where is the Value in AI: Chips, Models or Apps | Why Nvidia Will Not Be The Only Game in Town | The Commoditisation of Foundation Models | Which AI Apps Have Sustaining Value vs Hype and Short Term Revenue

3509.155

I'm totally fucked. Final one for you. When I ask you for a memorable moment from your time at Benchmark, what's the one that you tell grandchildren?

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Benchmark's Eric Vishria on Where is the Value in AI: Chips, Models or Apps | Why Nvidia Will Not Be The Only Game in Town | The Commoditisation of Foundation Models | Which AI Apps Have Sustaining Value vs Hype and Short Term Revenue

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Thank you so much for agreeing to do it. This has been amazing. So fun. What a man. I absolutely love doing that show. If you want to check it out on YouTube, you can by searching for 20VC. There you'll find all of our episodes in video. I'd love to hear your thoughts and feedback. But before we leave you today, all of you listening use tons of software every day. Sometimes it fills us with rage.

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20VC: Benchmark's Eric Vishria on Where is the Value in AI: Chips, Models or Apps | Why Nvidia Will Not Be The Only Game in Town | The Commoditisation of Foundation Models | Which AI Apps Have Sustaining Value vs Hype and Short Term Revenue

3562.692

You can't figure something out. The chatbot in the bottom right is useless. You keep getting bombarded with these useless pop-ups. And for those of you who build products, no one wants their product to feel like this. Thankfully, a company exists to help users without annoying them, CommandBar. It does a couple of very helpful things.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Benchmark's Eric Vishria on Where is the Value in AI: Chips, Models or Apps | Why Nvidia Will Not Be The Only Game in Town | The Commoditisation of Foundation Models | Which AI Apps Have Sustaining Value vs Hype and Short Term Revenue

3579.507

First, it's a chatbot that uses AI to give users extremely personalized responses and deflect tickets. But it can be beyond just text. It can also co-browse with the user and show them how to do things inside the UI. Magic. But it can also detect when users would benefit from a proactive nudge, like a helpful hint, or an invitation to start a free trial.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Benchmark's Eric Vishria on Where is the Value in AI: Chips, Models or Apps | Why Nvidia Will Not Be The Only Game in Town | The Commoditisation of Foundation Models | Which AI Apps Have Sustaining Value vs Hype and Short Term Revenue

3598.827

CommandBar is already used by world-class companies like Gusto, HashiCorp, Yotpo, and Angelist. If you're a product CX or marketing leader, check them out at commandbar.com slash harry. And talking about incredible companies with Command Bar, I want to talk to you about a new venture fund making waves by taking a very different approach. It's a public venture fund anyone can invest in.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Benchmark's Eric Vishria on Where is the Value in AI: Chips, Models or Apps | Why Nvidia Will Not Be The Only Game in Town | The Commoditisation of Foundation Models | Which AI Apps Have Sustaining Value vs Hype and Short Term Revenue

3620.413

Not just institutions and accredited investors. The Fundrise Innovation Fund is democratizing venture capital, which could have big consequences for the industry. The fund is already off to a good start with $100 million into some of the largest, most in-demand AI and data infrastructure companies. Companies like OpenAI, Anthropic and Databricks.

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20VC: Benchmark's Eric Vishria on Where is the Value in AI: Chips, Models or Apps | Why Nvidia Will Not Be The Only Game in Town | The Commoditisation of Foundation Models | Which AI Apps Have Sustaining Value vs Hype and Short Term Revenue

3641.308

Check out the Innovation Fund's impressive list of investments for yourself by visiting fundrise.com slash 20VC. Carefully consider the investment material before investing, including objectives, risks, charges, and expenses. This and other information can be found in the Innovation Fund's prospectus at fundrise.com slash innovation. This is a paid sponsorship.

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3663.624

And finally, let's talk about Squarespace. Squarespace is the all-in-one website platform for entrepreneurs to stand out and succeed online. Whether you're just starting out or managing a growing brand, Squarespace makes it easy to create a beautiful website, engage with your audience, and sell anything from products to content, all in one place, all on your terms.

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20VC: Benchmark's Eric Vishria on Where is the Value in AI: Chips, Models or Apps | Why Nvidia Will Not Be The Only Game in Town | The Commoditisation of Foundation Models | Which AI Apps Have Sustaining Value vs Hype and Short Term Revenue

3683.234

What's blown me away is the Squarespace Blueprint AI and SEO tools. It's like crafting your site with a guided system. ensuring it not only reflects your unique style, but also ranks well on search engines. Plus, their flexible payment options cater to every customer's needs, making transactions smooth and hassle-free. And the Squarespace AI?

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20VC: Benchmark's Eric Vishria on Where is the Value in AI: Chips, Models or Apps | Why Nvidia Will Not Be The Only Game in Town | The Commoditisation of Foundation Models | Which AI Apps Have Sustaining Value vs Hype and Short Term Revenue

3702.225

It's a content wizard helping you whip up text that truly resonates with your brand voice. So if you're ready to get started, head to squarespace.com for a free trial. And when you're ready to launch, go to squarespace.com slash 20VC and use the code 20VC to save 10% off your first purchase of a website, or domain.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

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3720.559

As always, I so appreciate all your support and stay tuned for an incredible episode coming this Friday with the OG of sales and customer success at HubSpot on 20 sales.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Benchmark's Eric Vishria on Where is the Value in AI: Chips, Models or Apps | Why Nvidia Will Not Be The Only Game in Town | The Commoditisation of Foundation Models | Which AI Apps Have Sustaining Value vs Hype and Short Term Revenue

375.758

Is there anything you would have done differently about your CEO ship? Now you've worked with some of the best CEOs, the best founders.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Benchmark's Eric Vishria on Where is the Value in AI: Chips, Models or Apps | Why Nvidia Will Not Be The Only Game in Town | The Commoditisation of Foundation Models | Which AI Apps Have Sustaining Value vs Hype and Short Term Revenue

426.158

Can I ask, on one, in terms of the distribution element, how do you dig into that as an investor today, evaluating whether a founder has thought that through comprehensively enough for you to get comfortable on that?

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Benchmark's Eric Vishria on Where is the Value in AI: Chips, Models or Apps | Why Nvidia Will Not Be The Only Game in Town | The Commoditisation of Foundation Models | Which AI Apps Have Sustaining Value vs Hype and Short Term Revenue

486.514

Speaking of like changing tides, being that kind of captain of the ship and moving with the tides, you then become an investor, very different role than being a CEO. And you said something that I very much agreed with before, but I loved it. And I wanted to dig into why. You said career investors, ah, they're all better. They're always better.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Benchmark's Eric Vishria on Where is the Value in AI: Chips, Models or Apps | Why Nvidia Will Not Be The Only Game in Town | The Commoditisation of Foundation Models | Which AI Apps Have Sustaining Value vs Hype and Short Term Revenue

49.38

A once-in-a-generation investor, a true picker, and one of the greats. But before we dive in today, all of you listening use tons of software every day. Sometimes it fills us with rage. You can't figure something out. The chatbot in the bottom right is useless. You keep getting bombarded with these useless pop-ups.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Benchmark's Eric Vishria on Where is the Value in AI: Chips, Models or Apps | Why Nvidia Will Not Be The Only Game in Town | The Commoditisation of Foundation Models | Which AI Apps Have Sustaining Value vs Hype and Short Term Revenue

65.968

And for those of you who build products, no one wants their product to feel like this. Thankfully, a company exists to help users without annoying them. CommandBar. It does a couple of very helpful things. First, it's a chatbot that uses AI to give users extremely personalized responses and deflect tickets. But it can be beyond just text.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Benchmark's Eric Vishria on Where is the Value in AI: Chips, Models or Apps | Why Nvidia Will Not Be The Only Game in Town | The Commoditisation of Foundation Models | Which AI Apps Have Sustaining Value vs Hype and Short Term Revenue

654.775

My question to you is you mentioned some amazing companies there that are often completely detached in terms of sector. There are very different companies there from Confluent, Contentful to Cerubris. And I spoke to Bruce Dunleavy before the show, and he said that bluntly your breadth of sector mastering is completely unparalleled as an investor.

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20VC: Benchmark's Eric Vishria on Where is the Value in AI: Chips, Models or Apps | Why Nvidia Will Not Be The Only Game in Town | The Commoditisation of Foundation Models | Which AI Apps Have Sustaining Value vs Hype and Short Term Revenue

679.046

And he asked a great question, I thought, which was, What is your learning process for entirely new categories and how do you break it down and learn so fast?

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Benchmark's Eric Vishria on Where is the Value in AI: Chips, Models or Apps | Why Nvidia Will Not Be The Only Game in Town | The Commoditisation of Foundation Models | Which AI Apps Have Sustaining Value vs Hype and Short Term Revenue

84.137

It can also co-browse with the user and show them how to do things inside the UI. Magic! But it can also detect when users would benefit from a proactive nudge, like a helpful hint, or an invitation to start a free trial. CommandBar is already used by world-class companies like Gusto, HashiCorp, Yotpo, and Angelist.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Benchmark's Eric Vishria on Where is the Value in AI: Chips, Models or Apps | Why Nvidia Will Not Be The Only Game in Town | The Commoditisation of Foundation Models | Which AI Apps Have Sustaining Value vs Hype and Short Term Revenue

843.134

Can I pose an alternative to you there, which is actually, those are generally vertical SaaS companies with deep data reserves, which will then be able to leverage foundation models that are relatively commoditized to build much better vertically specific apps and become stronger.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Benchmark's Eric Vishria on Where is the Value in AI: Chips, Models or Apps | Why Nvidia Will Not Be The Only Game in Town | The Commoditisation of Foundation Models | Which AI Apps Have Sustaining Value vs Hype and Short Term Revenue

911.55

I've got to take this one by one, because otherwise I'm just going to go all over the place. You said the insight development. I agree, and I love that. I actually ask it. Mike Maples always taught me to ask, what is your insight development? How do you view the world in a way that others don't agree? I asked Pat Grady on the show, who says hi, by the way.

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20VC: Benchmark's Eric Vishria on Where is the Value in AI: Chips, Models or Apps | Why Nvidia Will Not Be The Only Game in Town | The Commoditisation of Foundation Models | Which AI Apps Have Sustaining Value vs Hype and Short Term Revenue

928.677

But I asked Pat Grady on the show, and I said, do you have to be contrarian and right? What if a founder says, I think that actually the world is moving to cloud? Duh. and I'm going to facilitate that much quicker. There's not really an insight. Does that matter? Do you have to be contrarian and right in your insight?

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988.344

But even now, actually, you could argue that say like in an Uber Lyft case, which is exactly what I was thinking, the insight I think would be that broad is better than narrow in terms of market expansion and being everywhere is more important than honing one.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20Sales: Biggest Lessons Scaling Slack from $6M to $1BN in ARR | How to Build a Customer Success Machine and Where Most Go Wrong | The Framework to Hire All Sales Reps: Take-Home Assignments, Hiring Panels and more with AJ Tennant @ Glean

0.089

This is 20 Sales with me, Harry Stebbings. Now, 20 Sales is the monthly show where we sit down with the best sales leaders to discuss their tips, tactics, and strategies when it comes to scaling both sales and customer success teams. Today, we have one of the best in the hot seat. AJ Tennant.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20Sales: Biggest Lessons Scaling Slack from $6M to $1BN in ARR | How to Build a Customer Success Machine and Where Most Go Wrong | The Framework to Hire All Sales Reps: Take-Home Assignments, Hiring Panels and more with AJ Tennant @ Glean

102.098

This is so, because we were planning on doing it remote. And then when you said you were in London, I was like, yes, this is it. Thank you so much for doing this. Thank you. I'm stoked to be here. Now, I want to start with sales leadership skills and sales skills. A lot of people suggest that they are born. You're a natural sales person.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20Sales: Biggest Lessons Scaling Slack from $6M to $1BN in ARR | How to Build a Customer Success Machine and Where Most Go Wrong | The Framework to Hire All Sales Reps: Take-Home Assignments, Hiring Panels and more with AJ Tennant @ Glean

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So when you go to enterprises today, they're like, oh, shiny, cool. Yeah. Let's see what we can do.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20Sales: Biggest Lessons Scaling Slack from $6M to $1BN in ARR | How to Build a Customer Success Machine and Where Most Go Wrong | The Framework to Hire All Sales Reps: Take-Home Assignments, Hiring Panels and more with AJ Tennant @ Glean

1104.464

Is that even more a case for specialized sales teams though? Because it means you need to have a much greater clearer understanding of specific verticals. Okay, the core problems for telecoms businesses today are these three things. The core problems for healthcare providers, you can only get to that granular level of insight where you can show them the value if you are deep in that domain.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20Sales: Biggest Lessons Scaling Slack from $6M to $1BN in ARR | How to Build a Customer Success Machine and Where Most Go Wrong | The Framework to Hire All Sales Reps: Take-Home Assignments, Hiring Panels and more with AJ Tennant @ Glean

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I'm a podcaster and you're a very successful sales leader, so this is where you push back on me. But I'm like, you know what? We have T-Mobile, one of the biggest brands in telecoms in the world with real data on how they've used us effectively. Fuck, I want one AE who is just purely focused on telecoms and they show explicitly with just the biggest telecoms providers, a FOMO.

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20Sales: Biggest Lessons Scaling Slack from $6M to $1BN in ARR | How to Build a Customer Success Machine and Where Most Go Wrong | The Framework to Hire All Sales Reps: Take-Home Assignments, Hiring Panels and more with AJ Tennant @ Glean

1180.129

Do you want to be like T-Mobile? Great. This is us. Now you need the entry point. You need that anchor into that market. But once you have it, hell, I want to go.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20Sales: Biggest Lessons Scaling Slack from $6M to $1BN in ARR | How to Build a Customer Success Machine and Where Most Go Wrong | The Framework to Hire All Sales Reps: Take-Home Assignments, Hiring Panels and more with AJ Tennant @ Glean

1212.535

We mentioned being in the experimental budget phase, and we mentioned showing them the value that we can provide them. Bluntly, are there buzzwords? You're a very smart and attuned sales leader. Are there buzzwords where you see these boardrooms light up and go, oh, that's exciting, or buzzwords where they're, that's cynical?

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20Sales: Biggest Lessons Scaling Slack from $6M to $1BN in ARR | How to Build a Customer Success Machine and Where Most Go Wrong | The Framework to Hire All Sales Reps: Take-Home Assignments, Hiring Panels and more with AJ Tennant @ Glean

1280.265

Okay, so we say this AI-enabled workforce, AI-centric employee, and they're leaning in. Why do you say they're still in the experimental budget phase? Is it because of the size of their contract, the speed of their rollout? What makes you say that?

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20Sales: Biggest Lessons Scaling Slack from $6M to $1BN in ARR | How to Build a Customer Success Machine and Where Most Go Wrong | The Framework to Hire All Sales Reps: Take-Home Assignments, Hiring Panels and more with AJ Tennant @ Glean

1324.87

Absolutely. Do they have urgency when it comes to AI tools? Are they like, we need to get this in now? Or is it like part of the innovation budget of excitement? Absolutely.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20Sales: Biggest Lessons Scaling Slack from $6M to $1BN in ARR | How to Build a Customer Success Machine and Where Most Go Wrong | The Framework to Hire All Sales Reps: Take-Home Assignments, Hiring Panels and more with AJ Tennant @ Glean

1383.233

You said I could ask anything. You can say no to answering. What's the biggest contract that Glean has, size-wise? Yeah, well north of $5 million. Wow, that's real money. Yeah. That's not experimental budget shit. No. I was wondering, though, when it comes to this, it's one thing to get a deal done. It's another thing to get implementation done, to get usage.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20Sales: Biggest Lessons Scaling Slack from $6M to $1BN in ARR | How to Build a Customer Success Machine and Where Most Go Wrong | The Framework to Hire All Sales Reps: Take-Home Assignments, Hiring Panels and more with AJ Tennant @ Glean

1403.925

We've seen Accenture and we've seen some big consulting firms post some amazing numbers when it comes to AI services. To what extent are these large enterprises actually able to implement new AI technologies?

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20Sales: Biggest Lessons Scaling Slack from $6M to $1BN in ARR | How to Build a Customer Success Machine and Where Most Go Wrong | The Framework to Hire All Sales Reps: Take-Home Assignments, Hiring Panels and more with AJ Tennant @ Glean

1531.596

When we think about CS, how do we bring CS in naturally without it being, thanks, AJ's closed the deal, now meet Harry. What's the right way to do that handoff from your experience?

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20Sales: Biggest Lessons Scaling Slack from $6M to $1BN in ARR | How to Build a Customer Success Machine and Where Most Go Wrong | The Framework to Hire All Sales Reps: Take-Home Assignments, Hiring Panels and more with AJ Tennant @ Glean

1627.312

What size contract does it make sense to have CS as a really built out function and really catered account?

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20Sales: Biggest Lessons Scaling Slack from $6M to $1BN in ARR | How to Build a Customer Success Machine and Where Most Go Wrong | The Framework to Hire All Sales Reps: Take-Home Assignments, Hiring Panels and more with AJ Tennant @ Glean

1674.202

Sorry. Their company. Ah, so it's an upsell potential measurement. Exactly. TAM of the upsell. What are the biggest mistakes you think founders get wrong with building out their CSM teams?

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20Sales: Biggest Lessons Scaling Slack from $6M to $1BN in ARR | How to Build a Customer Success Machine and Where Most Go Wrong | The Framework to Hire All Sales Reps: Take-Home Assignments, Hiring Panels and more with AJ Tennant @ Glean

1697.702

When you say NDR, NR, GR, all sound wonderful. Luckily, having done SaaS investing for nine or 10 years, I do know what they mean. I didn't for a couple. And then I had to ask the stupid questions. Which one's the most important?

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20Sales: Biggest Lessons Scaling Slack from $6M to $1BN in ARR | How to Build a Customer Success Machine and Where Most Go Wrong | The Framework to Hire All Sales Reps: Take-Home Assignments, Hiring Panels and more with AJ Tennant @ Glean

17.493

AJ Tennant is the Vice President of Sales and Success at Glean, where he's had more than a 20x increase in revenue and a 100x increase in user base in the two and a half years he's been at Glean. Before Glean, he had incredible runs at both Slack and Facebook. At Slack, most notably, AJ helped grow revenue from 6 million to more than a billion in ARR.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20Sales: Biggest Lessons Scaling Slack from $6M to $1BN in ARR | How to Build a Customer Success Machine and Where Most Go Wrong | The Framework to Hire All Sales Reps: Take-Home Assignments, Hiring Panels and more with AJ Tennant @ Glean

1773.983

We haven't seen renewal cycles yet for a lot of the AI tools with a lot of revenue in terms of full year cycles. Do you think we're going to see a large number of churns? Oh, yeah.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20Sales: Biggest Lessons Scaling Slack from $6M to $1BN in ARR | How to Build a Customer Success Machine and Where Most Go Wrong | The Framework to Hire All Sales Reps: Take-Home Assignments, Hiring Panels and more with AJ Tennant @ Glean

1882.372

You've got a magic wand and you can change anything about the sales comp plan for Glean. What would you change? More aggressive accelerators.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20Sales: Biggest Lessons Scaling Slack from $6M to $1BN in ARR | How to Build a Customer Success Machine and Where Most Go Wrong | The Framework to Hire All Sales Reps: Take-Home Assignments, Hiring Panels and more with AJ Tennant @ Glean

1916.967

I think it's a good thing to do. In funds, we call that kickers, which is like over a 5X fund. You get a kicker on carry, which takes it to 30%, not 20% or whatever that is, but it's over that exceptional performance. I totally get that. That totally makes sense. Hiring is really freaking hard. It is the one area where I think most early stage founders get most wrong.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20Sales: Biggest Lessons Scaling Slack from $6M to $1BN in ARR | How to Build a Customer Success Machine and Where Most Go Wrong | The Framework to Hire All Sales Reps: Take-Home Assignments, Hiring Panels and more with AJ Tennant @ Glean

1937.114

You've hired exceptional sales teams. How do you run a process when adding to the sales team? What does that look like?

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20Sales: Biggest Lessons Scaling Slack from $6M to $1BN in ARR | How to Build a Customer Success Machine and Where Most Go Wrong | The Framework to Hire All Sales Reps: Take-Home Assignments, Hiring Panels and more with AJ Tennant @ Glean

1981.213

I'm a salesperson. I'm brilliant at packaging. How do you actually determine true grit quality in my sales skills when I answer your questions beautifully?

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20Sales: Biggest Lessons Scaling Slack from $6M to $1BN in ARR | How to Build a Customer Success Machine and Where Most Go Wrong | The Framework to Hire All Sales Reps: Take-Home Assignments, Hiring Panels and more with AJ Tennant @ Glean

2033.385

so being able to see a deck that they built an email that they sent well talk to me about that because you you sent me beforehand this incredible debt that you did on joining glean what deck do you ask people to send to you and how does that look in structure

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20Sales: Biggest Lessons Scaling Slack from $6M to $1BN in ARR | How to Build a Customer Success Machine and Where Most Go Wrong | The Framework to Hire All Sales Reps: Take-Home Assignments, Hiring Panels and more with AJ Tennant @ Glean

207.389

When you look at, yeah, it's super tough and it actually just makes me think of why Mormons tend to actually be such good sellers because they actually have to go and sell the Book of Mormon to like Africa. But my question is, you see this generation of new young reps coming in today. Are there commonalities in what you see them struggle to pick up slash learn?

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20Sales: Biggest Lessons Scaling Slack from $6M to $1BN in ARR | How to Build a Customer Success Machine and Where Most Go Wrong | The Framework to Hire All Sales Reps: Take-Home Assignments, Hiring Panels and more with AJ Tennant @ Glean

2183.522

I get in trouble. I think it's IQ. I think people are just not that smart. And then they also just don't have great energy. And you need both the razor sharp intellect combined with high energy to really be able to map out a vision and articulate it well to that customer. And I just find like there's not that many insightful people. Yeah.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20Sales: Biggest Lessons Scaling Slack from $6M to $1BN in ARR | How to Build a Customer Success Machine and Where Most Go Wrong | The Framework to Hire All Sales Reps: Take-Home Assignments, Hiring Panels and more with AJ Tennant @ Glean

2211.316

How much of a date do you want me to be? Really? You want to put me on the spot? If you're a really sharp, insightful person, you're not going to be an AE. I'm going to get killed by a whole AE audience. No. But if you're really sharp, I can make money in so many better industries.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20Sales: Biggest Lessons Scaling Slack from $6M to $1BN in ARR | How to Build a Customer Success Machine and Where Most Go Wrong | The Framework to Hire All Sales Reps: Take-Home Assignments, Hiring Panels and more with AJ Tennant @ Glean

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I agree. I agree with that. But I think they, and this, I'm pretty, Maggie's going to listen to you, you prick. But it's like, I think they want to go into product. I think they want to go into strategy. I think they even might want to go into consulting because they think it's a way into venture or another thing. I don't think the smartest minds are like sales.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20Sales: Biggest Lessons Scaling Slack from $6M to $1BN in ARR | How to Build a Customer Success Machine and Where Most Go Wrong | The Framework to Hire All Sales Reps: Take-Home Assignments, Hiring Panels and more with AJ Tennant @ Glean

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Oh, yeah. You come into a hiring process with that and how you've used it before. You're like fucking job.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20Sales: Biggest Lessons Scaling Slack from $6M to $1BN in ARR | How to Build a Customer Success Machine and Where Most Go Wrong | The Framework to Hire All Sales Reps: Take-Home Assignments, Hiring Panels and more with AJ Tennant @ Glean

2559.017

I totally agree. It's a bit of a risky strategy. Some companies could be pissed that you called up their main buyer and was like interviewing them ahead of time.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20Sales: Biggest Lessons Scaling Slack from $6M to $1BN in ARR | How to Build a Customer Success Machine and Where Most Go Wrong | The Framework to Hire All Sales Reps: Take-Home Assignments, Hiring Panels and more with AJ Tennant @ Glean

2641.057

You mentioned your interview process with Glean. With the benefit of hindsight now, what could be done to have made that process better?

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20Sales: Biggest Lessons Scaling Slack from $6M to $1BN in ARR | How to Build a Customer Success Machine and Where Most Go Wrong | The Framework to Hire All Sales Reps: Take-Home Assignments, Hiring Panels and more with AJ Tennant @ Glean

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The thing I'm always amazed by also is like the desire for volume over depth. They want to send a thousand outbound messages versus 20 really well-crafted ones.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20Sales: Biggest Lessons Scaling Slack from $6M to $1BN in ARR | How to Build a Customer Success Machine and Where Most Go Wrong | The Framework to Hire All Sales Reps: Take-Home Assignments, Hiring Panels and more with AJ Tennant @ Glean

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When you look back over your mistakes as a hiring leader, what's the biggest? Moving too fast.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20Sales: Biggest Lessons Scaling Slack from $6M to $1BN in ARR | How to Build a Customer Success Machine and Where Most Go Wrong | The Framework to Hire All Sales Reps: Take-Home Assignments, Hiring Panels and more with AJ Tennant @ Glean

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Someone said to me the other day, you have to sometimes let fires burn and actually just be okay letting a fire burn if it means you've got to wait another month. As painful as it is, it's better to wait the month.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20Sales: Biggest Lessons Scaling Slack from $6M to $1BN in ARR | How to Build a Customer Success Machine and Where Most Go Wrong | The Framework to Hire All Sales Reps: Take-Home Assignments, Hiring Panels and more with AJ Tennant @ Glean

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What is the biggest mistake that founders or sales leaders make in new rep onboarding? Not doing it.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20Sales: Biggest Lessons Scaling Slack from $6M to $1BN in ARR | How to Build a Customer Success Machine and Where Most Go Wrong | The Framework to Hire All Sales Reps: Take-Home Assignments, Hiring Panels and more with AJ Tennant @ Glean

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Yeah. Listen, I want to do a quick fire. So I'm going to say a short statement. You're going to hit me with your immediate thoughts. Okay. Yes. Discounting. Is it always bad? Do you sometimes do it? How do you approach it?

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20Sales: Biggest Lessons Scaling Slack from $6M to $1BN in ARR | How to Build a Customer Success Machine and Where Most Go Wrong | The Framework to Hire All Sales Reps: Take-Home Assignments, Hiring Panels and more with AJ Tennant @ Glean

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Your friend. has just got a job as head of sales at a new company, at a series A-stage company. You call them up the night before. What do you advise them?

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20Sales: Biggest Lessons Scaling Slack from $6M to $1BN in ARR | How to Build a Customer Success Machine and Where Most Go Wrong | The Framework to Hire All Sales Reps: Take-Home Assignments, Hiring Panels and more with AJ Tennant @ Glean

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You mentioned the playbook there because they obviously run the playbook with different clients and you need to be flexible with it. How do you define the sales playbook?

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20Sales: Biggest Lessons Scaling Slack from $6M to $1BN in ARR | How to Build a Customer Success Machine and Where Most Go Wrong | The Framework to Hire All Sales Reps: Take-Home Assignments, Hiring Panels and more with AJ Tennant @ Glean

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I don't think so. Because, I mean, we can take this out, but there have been quite a few examples, and I would take this out, there's been quite a few examples of CROs that have moved to CEO roles, hasn't there? Yeah. Well, give me a shot. Yeah. That is the best answer. But it is true. I'm trying to remember. There's quite a famous one. Anyway, I shouldn't say it even if I could remember it.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20Sales: Biggest Lessons Scaling Slack from $6M to $1BN in ARR | How to Build a Customer Success Machine and Where Most Go Wrong | The Framework to Hire All Sales Reps: Take-Home Assignments, Hiring Panels and more with AJ Tennant @ Glean

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I want to finish on one though, which is like when you look at company sales strategies or GDM motions, which one have you been most impressed by recently other than Glean and why?

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20Sales: Biggest Lessons Scaling Slack from $6M to $1BN in ARR | How to Build a Customer Success Machine and Where Most Go Wrong | The Framework to Hire All Sales Reps: Take-Home Assignments, Hiring Panels and more with AJ Tennant @ Glean

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It's a really fucking good answer. Normally people have shit answers to that question. Honestly, I wondered about scrapping it because people never have any good ones. They just go open AI. Fantastic. AJ, I've loved this. Thank you so much for being so willing to free wheel with my open-ended questions. You've been amazing and I so appreciate it, dude. Yeah, amazing.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20Sales: Biggest Lessons Scaling Slack from $6M to $1BN in ARR | How to Build a Customer Success Machine and Where Most Go Wrong | The Framework to Hire All Sales Reps: Take-Home Assignments, Hiring Panels and more with AJ Tennant @ Glean

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Sure. That was the hardest part there. At every stage of my career, people have told me that I will not be able to do the next thing. Oh, well, you're a podcaster. Well, fine, but you won't be able to make the move into being an investor. Oh, well, you're an investor. Fuck them. And you won't be able to make the move into being a lead investor. Oh, well, you're a lead investor.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20Sales: Biggest Lessons Scaling Slack from $6M to $1BN in ARR | How to Build a Customer Success Machine and Where Most Go Wrong | The Framework to Hire All Sales Reps: Take-Home Assignments, Hiring Panels and more with AJ Tennant @ Glean

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You won't be able to make the move into having your own fund. You won't be able to make the move into having your own big fund.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20Sales: Biggest Lessons Scaling Slack from $6M to $1BN in ARR | How to Build a Customer Success Machine and Where Most Go Wrong | The Framework to Hire All Sales Reps: Take-Home Assignments, Hiring Panels and more with AJ Tennant @ Glean

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at every stage they tell you you can't do it and at every stage you have to be like the one solitary person in the crowd as well as my mother who claps and says like you can do it and that is hard and then also now as we you know we get bigger and bigger which is great in many ways you get a lot of hate yeah it's not very nice yeah that can hurt i was thinking about it because i was looking at obviously your linkedin followers your twitter followers like

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20Sales: Biggest Lessons Scaling Slack from $6M to $1BN in ARR | How to Build a Customer Success Machine and Where Most Go Wrong | The Framework to Hire All Sales Reps: Take-Home Assignments, Hiring Panels and more with AJ Tennant @ Glean

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I didn't have a choice. I didn't go to university. I didn't do that well in school. My life was set out to be pretty mediocre to shit if I followed any conventional rules. And so I think it's this realization that there's only one way to win, which is to work hard on everyone else. And like, I haven't had a weekend in 10 years since I started. I haven't been on holidays for 10 years.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20Sales: Biggest Lessons Scaling Slack from $6M to $1BN in ARR | How to Build a Customer Success Machine and Where Most Go Wrong | The Framework to Hire All Sales Reps: Take-Home Assignments, Hiring Panels and more with AJ Tennant @ Glean

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Like there's very few people that are willing to do that. The grind. Yeah. But it's like actually great companies are built on solving grind problems where it's not actually sometimes that difficult. Yeah. Technically, but it's just a lot of fricking work. I think to like plaid as a great example is, It is a company built on a grind problem. Intense amounts of integrations, data challenges.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20Sales: Biggest Lessons Scaling Slack from $6M to $1BN in ARR | How to Build a Customer Success Machine and Where Most Go Wrong | The Framework to Hire All Sales Reps: Take-Home Assignments, Hiring Panels and more with AJ Tennant @ Glean

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It's not technically hard, but the man hours to do that was insane. This was a grind problem. I did five shows a week, one a day for five years. By the way, we didn't have a thousand plays per show for the first 18 months. Everyone would have stopped. Everyone. 90% of podcasts don't make it to episode 10. Yeah. The other 10%, 8% more don't make it at episode 50.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20Sales: Biggest Lessons Scaling Slack from $6M to $1BN in ARR | How to Build a Customer Success Machine and Where Most Go Wrong | The Framework to Hire All Sales Reps: Take-Home Assignments, Hiring Panels and more with AJ Tennant @ Glean

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If you just keep going for 50 shows, you're top 2%. Like, this is a game of who survives the longest. Also, another big problem is that everyone's like, you know what, I'm not good at content. I don't think like in tweets like you do, Harry. I was terrible. Like, if you listen to my number one, like, first episode. Who was it again? Guy Kawasaki. But I was like, question number two.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20Sales: Biggest Lessons Scaling Slack from $6M to $1BN in ARR | How to Build a Customer Success Machine and Where Most Go Wrong | The Framework to Hire All Sales Reps: Take-Home Assignments, Hiring Panels and more with AJ Tennant @ Glean

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Question number three. It was the worst. And it's just like the gym. No one goes into the gym and is like, I feel great on the treadmill. What a natural habitat for me. It sucks. But 50 times in, you're like, okay, I got this.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20Sales: Biggest Lessons Scaling Slack from $6M to $1BN in ARR | How to Build a Customer Success Machine and Where Most Go Wrong | The Framework to Hire All Sales Reps: Take-Home Assignments, Hiring Panels and more with AJ Tennant @ Glean

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Do you agree that sales can be taught and it's not innate? I think it is innate for the top 1%. And I think that's the same with most things. Roger Federer is an innately brilliant tennis player. It's in his bones.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20Sales: Biggest Lessons Scaling Slack from $6M to $1BN in ARR | How to Build a Customer Success Machine and Where Most Go Wrong | The Framework to Hire All Sales Reps: Take-Home Assignments, Hiring Panels and more with AJ Tennant @ Glean

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Well done, my man. My sales enablement platform is a waste of money. Ever thought that? You're not alone. Most revenue leaders feel this way watching their sales team struggle to keep up with market product and competitive changes. Reps burn hours each day searching, digging, slacking, desperately trying to get the answers they need out of their clunky tech stack.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20Sales: Biggest Lessons Scaling Slack from $6M to $1BN in ARR | How to Build a Customer Success Machine and Where Most Go Wrong | The Framework to Hire All Sales Reps: Take-Home Assignments, Hiring Panels and more with AJ Tennant @ Glean

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That's why SpecIt's AI-powered enablement platform was purpose-built to cut through the noise and meet reps in their moment of need. SpecIt uses AI to recommend the exact content your reps need to close deals in any tool like Gong, Salesforce, or Outlook. It's that easy.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20Sales: Biggest Lessons Scaling Slack from $6M to $1BN in ARR | How to Build a Customer Success Machine and Where Most Go Wrong | The Framework to Hire All Sales Reps: Take-Home Assignments, Hiring Panels and more with AJ Tennant @ Glean

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If you're ready to give your reps a personalized enablement assistant at their fingertips, take five minutes and discover why leading investors like Kraft and Felicis are backing SpecIt as the platform revolutionizing sales enablement. See for yourself at specit.com slash 20VC.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20Sales: Biggest Lessons Scaling Slack from $6M to $1BN in ARR | How to Build a Customer Success Machine and Where Most Go Wrong | The Framework to Hire All Sales Reps: Take-Home Assignments, Hiring Panels and more with AJ Tennant @ Glean

379.406

Should the founder be the one to create that process slash plan? Or is it okay for me to say, listen, AJ, I'm a product person. I've built this beautiful product. You go create the sales playbook.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20Sales: Biggest Lessons Scaling Slack from $6M to $1BN in ARR | How to Build a Customer Success Machine and Where Most Go Wrong | The Framework to Hire All Sales Reps: Take-Home Assignments, Hiring Panels and more with AJ Tennant @ Glean

44.168

My sales enablement platform is a waste of money. Ever thought that? You're not alone. Most revenue leaders feel this way watching their sales team struggle to keep up with market product and competitive changes. Reps burn hours each day searching, digging, slacking, desperately trying to get the answers they need out of their clunky tech stack.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20Sales: Biggest Lessons Scaling Slack from $6M to $1BN in ARR | How to Build a Customer Success Machine and Where Most Go Wrong | The Framework to Hire All Sales Reps: Take-Home Assignments, Hiring Panels and more with AJ Tennant @ Glean

440.422

I'm just completely freewheeling here at this point. How do you feel about verticalized sales teams? When you think about a relatively horizontal product like Glean, which is that you sell to enterprise, sure, but there's many different types of enterprise from fintech to healthcare to consulting to financial services.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20Sales: Biggest Lessons Scaling Slack from $6M to $1BN in ARR | How to Build a Customer Success Machine and Where Most Go Wrong | The Framework to Hire All Sales Reps: Take-Home Assignments, Hiring Panels and more with AJ Tennant @ Glean

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Yeah, I do want to retain some sense of structure, otherwise my mind just goes everywhere. Slack was an incredible journey for you. It really shapes a lot of how one thinks when one sees such a transformational journey. What are one or two of the biggest takeaways for you from Slack? And how did that impact how you think as a sales leader?

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20Sales: Biggest Lessons Scaling Slack from $6M to $1BN in ARR | How to Build a Customer Success Machine and Where Most Go Wrong | The Framework to Hire All Sales Reps: Take-Home Assignments, Hiring Panels and more with AJ Tennant @ Glean

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That's why SpecIt's AI-powered enablement platform was purpose-built to cut through the noise and meet reps in their moment of need. SpecIt uses AI to recommend the exact content your reps need to close deals in any tool like Gong, Salesforce, or Outlook. It's that easy.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20Sales: Biggest Lessons Scaling Slack from $6M to $1BN in ARR | How to Build a Customer Success Machine and Where Most Go Wrong | The Framework to Hire All Sales Reps: Take-Home Assignments, Hiring Panels and more with AJ Tennant @ Glean

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And that's what we've done at Glean. How do you know when is the right time to move up market? It's a hard one. You don't want to get distracted too early, but you also don't want to leave great and big contracts on the table when you could take them.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20Sales: Biggest Lessons Scaling Slack from $6M to $1BN in ARR | How to Build a Customer Success Machine and Where Most Go Wrong | The Framework to Hire All Sales Reps: Take-Home Assignments, Hiring Panels and more with AJ Tennant @ Glean

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The trouble with going fast up market is I don't think it's like an easy transition for the company. You do need to move whole scale. Product needs SOC 2. It needs compliance. It needs permissioning. It's not like tomorrow we're going to be also an enterprise company. Is it possible to just move fast up market? And what do you need to do to do that?

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20Sales: Biggest Lessons Scaling Slack from $6M to $1BN in ARR | How to Build a Customer Success Machine and Where Most Go Wrong | The Framework to Hire All Sales Reps: Take-Home Assignments, Hiring Panels and more with AJ Tennant @ Glean

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If you're ready to give your reps a personalized enablement assistant at their fingertips, take five minutes and discover why leading investors like Kraft and Felicis are backing SpecIt as the platform revolutionizing sales enablement. See for yourself at specit.com slash 20VC. You have now arrived at your destination. AJ, I am so excited for this, dude. We get to do this in person.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20Sales: Biggest Lessons Scaling Slack from $6M to $1BN in ARR | How to Build a Customer Success Machine and Where Most Go Wrong | The Framework to Hire All Sales Reps: Take-Home Assignments, Hiring Panels and more with AJ Tennant @ Glean

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But that's my point, which is, like, is it possible to go up market fast when you look at all of those different elements and suddenly, like, you need someone for legal. You need, like, I mean, the sales team changes dramatically. You definitely need customer success people. You probably need security people. We've built out a whole nother company.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20Sales: Biggest Lessons Scaling Slack from $6M to $1BN in ARR | How to Build a Customer Success Machine and Where Most Go Wrong | The Framework to Hire All Sales Reps: Take-Home Assignments, Hiring Panels and more with AJ Tennant @ Glean

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Quite often, even the very large companies, they're not that confident when they sign the first land deal. Yeah. How willing are you to do small contracts? And what would your advice be to do small contracts with mega customers where they're like, hey, land and expand? I think you need to be very willing to do that.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Notion's Founder on "Founder Mode": When it Works & When it Doesn't | Why The Way Startups Fundraise & Construct Boards is Broken | Raising at a $10BN Valuation in Peak Bubble Times and How Notion Has More Money Than Ever Before with Akshay Kothari

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CommandBar is already used by world-class companies like Gusto, HashiCorp, Yotpo, and Angelist. If you're a product CX or marketing leader, check them out at commandbar.com slash harry. And talking about incredible companies with Command Bar, I want to talk to you about a new venture fund making waves by taking a very different approach. It's a public venture fund anyone can invest in.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Notion's Founder on "Founder Mode": When it Works & When it Doesn't | Why The Way Startups Fundraise & Construct Boards is Broken | Raising at a $10BN Valuation in Peak Bubble Times and How Notion Has More Money Than Ever Before with Akshay Kothari

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not just institutions and accredited investors. The Fundrise Innovation Fund is democratizing venture capital, which could have big consequences for the industry. The fund is already off to a good start with $100 million into some of the largest, most in-demand AI and data infrastructure companies. Companies like OpenAI, Anthropic, and Databricks.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Notion's Founder on "Founder Mode": When it Works & When it Doesn't | Why The Way Startups Fundraise & Construct Boards is Broken | Raising at a $10BN Valuation in Peak Bubble Times and How Notion Has More Money Than Ever Before with Akshay Kothari

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Check out the Innovation Fund's impressive list of investments for yourself by visiting fundrise.com slash 20VC. Carefully consider the investment material before investing, including objectives, risks, charges, and expenses. This and other information can be found in the Innovation Fund's prospectus at fundrise.com slash innovation. This is a paid sponsorship.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Notion's Founder on "Founder Mode": When it Works & When it Doesn't | Why The Way Startups Fundraise & Construct Boards is Broken | Raising at a $10BN Valuation in Peak Bubble Times and How Notion Has More Money Than Ever Before with Akshay Kothari

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And finally, let's talk about Squarespace. Squarespace is the all-in-one website platform for entrepreneurs to stand out and succeed online. Whether you're just starting out or managing a growing brand, Squarespace makes it easy to create a beautiful website, engage with your audience, and sell anything from products to content, all in one place, all on your terms.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Notion's Founder on "Founder Mode": When it Works & When it Doesn't | Why The Way Startups Fundraise & Construct Boards is Broken | Raising at a $10BN Valuation in Peak Bubble Times and How Notion Has More Money Than Ever Before with Akshay Kothari

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What's blown me away is the Squarespace Blueprint AI and SEO tools. It's like crafting your site with a guided system, ensuring it not only reflects your unique style, but also ranks well on search engines. Plus, their flexible payment options cater to every customer's needs, making transactions smooth and hassle-free. And the Squarespace AI?

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Notion's Founder on "Founder Mode": When it Works & When it Doesn't | Why The Way Startups Fundraise & Construct Boards is Broken | Raising at a $10BN Valuation in Peak Bubble Times and How Notion Has More Money Than Ever Before with Akshay Kothari

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It's a content wizard, helping you whip up text that truly resonates with your brand voice. So if you're ready to get started, head to squarespace.com for a free trial. And when you're ready to launch, go to squarespace.com slash 20VC and use the code 20VC to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Notion's Founder on "Founder Mode": When it Works & When it Doesn't | Why The Way Startups Fundraise & Construct Boards is Broken | Raising at a $10BN Valuation in Peak Bubble Times and How Notion Has More Money Than Ever Before with Akshay Kothari

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Welcome back to 20VC with me, Harry Stebbings, and today we have the man who makes the show at Notion run smoothly in the hot seat. Akshay Kothari. Akshay is the co-founder at Notion, and he has run almost every function in the company, from sales to marketing to finance.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Notion's Founder on "Founder Mode": When it Works & When it Doesn't | Why The Way Startups Fundraise & Construct Boards is Broken | Raising at a $10BN Valuation in Peak Bubble Times and How Notion Has More Money Than Ever Before with Akshay Kothari

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So I would love your feedback. I would love to hear, do you think shows are significantly better when recorded in person in the studio? Let me know on Twitter at Harry Stebbings and you can watch them on YouTube at 20VC. That's two zero VC. But before we leave you today, all of you listening use tons of software every day. Sometimes it fills us with rage. You can't figure something out.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Notion's Founder on "Founder Mode": When it Works & When it Doesn't | Why The Way Startups Fundraise & Construct Boards is Broken | Raising at a $10BN Valuation in Peak Bubble Times and How Notion Has More Money Than Ever Before with Akshay Kothari

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The chatbot in the bottom right is useless. You keep getting bombarded with these useless pop-ups. And for those of you who build products, no one wants their product to feel like this. Thankfully, a company exists to help users without annoying them, CommandBar. It does a couple of very helpful things.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Notion's Founder on "Founder Mode": When it Works & When it Doesn't | Why The Way Startups Fundraise & Construct Boards is Broken | Raising at a $10BN Valuation in Peak Bubble Times and How Notion Has More Money Than Ever Before with Akshay Kothari

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First, it's a chatbot that uses AI to give users extremely personalized responses and deflect tickets. But it can be beyond just text. It can also co-browse with the user and show them how to do things inside the UI. Magic. But it can also detect when users would benefit from a proactive nudge, like a helpful hint, or an invitation to start a free trial.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Notion's Founder on "Founder Mode": When it Works & When it Doesn't | Why The Way Startups Fundraise & Construct Boards is Broken | Raising at a $10BN Valuation in Peak Bubble Times and How Notion Has More Money Than Ever Before with Akshay Kothari

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CommandBar is already used by world-class companies like Gusto, HashiCorp, Yotpo, and Angelist. If you're a product CX or marketing leader, check them out at commandbar.com slash harry. And talking about incredible companies with Command Bar, I want to talk to you about a new venture fund making waves by taking a very different approach. It's a public venture fund anyone can invest in.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Notion's Founder on "Founder Mode": When it Works & When it Doesn't | Why The Way Startups Fundraise & Construct Boards is Broken | Raising at a $10BN Valuation in Peak Bubble Times and How Notion Has More Money Than Ever Before with Akshay Kothari

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not just institutions and accredited investors. The Fundrise Innovation Fund is democratizing venture capital, which could have big consequences for the industry. The fund is already off to a good start with $100 million into some of the largest, most in-demand AI and data infrastructure companies. Companies like OpenAI, Anthropic, and Databricks.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Notion's Founder on "Founder Mode": When it Works & When it Doesn't | Why The Way Startups Fundraise & Construct Boards is Broken | Raising at a $10BN Valuation in Peak Bubble Times and How Notion Has More Money Than Ever Before with Akshay Kothari

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Check out the Innovation Fund's impressive list of investments for yourself by visiting fundrise.com slash 20VC. Carefully consider the investment material before investing, including objectives, risks, charges and expenses. This and other information can be found in the Innovation Fund's prospectus at fundrise.com slash innovation. This is a paid sponsorship.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Notion's Founder on "Founder Mode": When it Works & When it Doesn't | Why The Way Startups Fundraise & Construct Boards is Broken | Raising at a $10BN Valuation in Peak Bubble Times and How Notion Has More Money Than Ever Before with Akshay Kothari

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And finally, let's talk about Squarespace. Squarespace is the all-in-one website platform for entrepreneurs to stand out and succeed online. Whether you're just starting out or managing a growing brand, Squarespace makes it easy to create a beautiful website, engage with your audience, and sell anything from products to content all in one place, all on your terms.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Notion's Founder on "Founder Mode": When it Works & When it Doesn't | Why The Way Startups Fundraise & Construct Boards is Broken | Raising at a $10BN Valuation in Peak Bubble Times and How Notion Has More Money Than Ever Before with Akshay Kothari

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What's blown me away is the Squarespace Blueprint AI and SEO tools. It's like crafting your site with a guided system, ensuring it not only reflects your unique style, but also ranks well on search engines. Plus, their flexible payment options cater to every customer's needs, making transactions smooth and hassle-free. And the Squarespace AI?

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Notion's Founder on "Founder Mode": When it Works & When it Doesn't | Why The Way Startups Fundraise & Construct Boards is Broken | Raising at a $10BN Valuation in Peak Bubble Times and How Notion Has More Money Than Ever Before with Akshay Kothari

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It's a content wizard helping you whip up text that truly resonates with your brand voice. So if you're ready to get started, head to squarespace.com for a free trial. And when you're ready to launch, go to squarespace.com slash 20VC and use the code 20VC to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Notion's Founder on "Founder Mode": When it Works & When it Doesn't | Why The Way Startups Fundraise & Construct Boards is Broken | Raising at a $10BN Valuation in Peak Bubble Times and How Notion Has More Money Than Ever Before with Akshay Kothari

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As always, I so appreciate all your support and stay tuned for an incredible episode coming this Monday. It is one of the best investing shows we've done with David Frankel at Founder Collective.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Notion's Founder on "Founder Mode": When it Works & When it Doesn't | Why The Way Startups Fundraise & Construct Boards is Broken | Raising at a $10BN Valuation in Peak Bubble Times and How Notion Has More Money Than Ever Before with Akshay Kothari

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He's even led their fundraising efforts, raising over $340 million from Sequoia, Index, and Cotu, with the latest round pricing them at $10 billion. Before Notion, Akshay was VP of product at LinkedIn for five years, and he joined LinkedIn when his previous company, Pulse, was acquired by them in 2013. But before we dive in today, all of you listening use tons of software every day.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Notion's Founder on "Founder Mode": When it Works & When it Doesn't | Why The Way Startups Fundraise & Construct Boards is Broken | Raising at a $10BN Valuation in Peak Bubble Times and How Notion Has More Money Than Ever Before with Akshay Kothari

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Sometimes it fills us with rage. You can't figure something out. The chatbot in the bottom right is useless. You keep getting bombarded with these useless pop-ups. And for those of you who build products, no one wants their product to feel like this. Thankfully, a company exists to help users without annoying them. CommandBar. It does a couple of very helpful things.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Notion's Founder on "Founder Mode": When it Works & When it Doesn't | Why The Way Startups Fundraise & Construct Boards is Broken | Raising at a $10BN Valuation in Peak Bubble Times and How Notion Has More Money Than Ever Before with Akshay Kothari

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First, it's a chatbot that uses AI to give users extremely personalized responses and deflect tickets. But it can be beyond just text. It can also co-browse with the user and show them how to do things inside the UI. Magic. But it can also detect when users would benefit from a proactive nudge, like a helpful hint, or an invitation to start a free trial.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Why Founder Mode is Dangerous & Could Encourage Bad Behaviour | Why Fundraising is a Waste of Time & OKRs are BS | Why Angel Investing is Bad for Founders to Do and the VC Model is on it's Last Legs with Zach Perret @ Plaid

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What has been the biggest hiring mistake that you've made and how have you changed as a result of it?

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Why Founder Mode is Dangerous & Could Encourage Bad Behaviour | Why Fundraising is a Waste of Time & OKRs are BS | Why Angel Investing is Bad for Founders to Do and the VC Model is on it's Last Legs with Zach Perret @ Plaid

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The fund is already off to a good start, with $100 million into some of the largest, most in-demand AI and data infrastructure companies. Companies like OpenAI, Anthropic, and Databricks. Check out the Innovation Fund's impressive list of investments for yourself by visiting fundrise.com slash 20VC.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Why Founder Mode is Dangerous & Could Encourage Bad Behaviour | Why Fundraising is a Waste of Time & OKRs are BS | Why Angel Investing is Bad for Founders to Do and the VC Model is on it's Last Legs with Zach Perret @ Plaid

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I totally agree, and it's used as a justification for a lot of bad behavior to happen. And you have people like Ryan Peterson at Flexport, who is a phenomenal CEO, and you, who are a phenomenal CEO, but not everyone is Ryan or Zach. And that doesn't mean they're bad CEOs, but it just means it's maybe not as applicable.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Why Founder Mode is Dangerous & Could Encourage Bad Behaviour | Why Fundraising is a Waste of Time & OKRs are BS | Why Angel Investing is Bad for Founders to Do and the VC Model is on it's Last Legs with Zach Perret @ Plaid

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I totally agree. I mean, Fred Wilson did this blog post on reserve utilization and the importance of reserves in early stage portfolios recently. He said basically everyone needs them and how you can use them to effectively drive DPI. And it's like, yes, if you're a brilliant picker like Fred Wilson is, who is legitimately one of the best investors of the last two decades.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Why Founder Mode is Dangerous & Could Encourage Bad Behaviour | Why Fundraising is a Waste of Time & OKRs are BS | Why Angel Investing is Bad for Founders to Do and the VC Model is on it's Last Legs with Zach Perret @ Plaid

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But most people are not very good pickers and concentrate capital into the wrong companies. What other things are very common beliefs which many agree with in Silicon Valley echo circles that you're like, I don't agree with that?

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Why Founder Mode is Dangerous & Could Encourage Bad Behaviour | Why Fundraising is a Waste of Time & OKRs are BS | Why Angel Investing is Bad for Founders to Do and the VC Model is on it's Last Legs with Zach Perret @ Plaid

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Carefully consider the investment material before investing, including objectives, risks, charges, and expenses. This and other information can be found in the Innovation Fund's prospectus at fundrise.com slash innovation. This is a paid sponsorship. And finally, let me tell you about UiPath. What do Henry Ford and AI have in common? Neither could change the world without automation.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Why Founder Mode is Dangerous & Could Encourage Bad Behaviour | Why Fundraising is a Waste of Time & OKRs are BS | Why Angel Investing is Bad for Founders to Do and the VC Model is on it's Last Legs with Zach Perret @ Plaid

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MARK BLYTHESONE- Is speed the single most important thing for companies going from zero to one? MARK MANDELMANN- No, being right is, and then speed. MARK MIRCHANDANI- What does that mean, being strategically right on the problem that you're solving and then acting with the extreme execution speed?

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Why Founder Mode is Dangerous & Could Encourage Bad Behaviour | Why Fundraising is a Waste of Time & OKRs are BS | Why Angel Investing is Bad for Founders to Do and the VC Model is on it's Last Legs with Zach Perret @ Plaid

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Ryan at Flexport told me very wisely, I think he said, velocity is the most important thing. It's speed in a given direction. And I'm like, that's a good one.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Why Founder Mode is Dangerous & Could Encourage Bad Behaviour | Why Fundraising is a Waste of Time & OKRs are BS | Why Angel Investing is Bad for Founders to Do and the VC Model is on it's Last Legs with Zach Perret @ Plaid

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Do you feel like we've got in a manufacturing line on venture funding companies? And what I mean by that is like it feels like so many founders get on this production line of I'm going to hit a million in ARR and then I'm going to raise my A and then I'm going to hit five million and raise my B and then 20.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Why Founder Mode is Dangerous & Could Encourage Bad Behaviour | Why Fundraising is a Waste of Time & OKRs are BS | Why Angel Investing is Bad for Founders to Do and the VC Model is on it's Last Legs with Zach Perret @ Plaid

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And it just feels a little bit over manufactured and almost forgetting the fact that we build products for customers who give us money.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Why Founder Mode is Dangerous & Could Encourage Bad Behaviour | Why Fundraising is a Waste of Time & OKRs are BS | Why Angel Investing is Bad for Founders to Do and the VC Model is on it's Last Legs with Zach Perret @ Plaid

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How do you think about that? Because if you want to raise money every three years, say, for example, you're going to have to raise a chunky round. You're going to have to either take a lot of dilution or you're going to have to have a really inflated price. How did you think about that?

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Why Founder Mode is Dangerous & Could Encourage Bad Behaviour | Why Fundraising is a Waste of Time & OKRs are BS | Why Angel Investing is Bad for Founders to Do and the VC Model is on it's Last Legs with Zach Perret @ Plaid

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In the future, there will be two types of businesses, those that have automated and those that wish they had. UiPath's new AI agents don't just follow rules. They think, make decisions, and work alongside the world's most powerful software robots, already trusted by over 10,000 businesses.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Why Founder Mode is Dangerous & Could Encourage Bad Behaviour | Why Fundraising is a Waste of Time & OKRs are BS | Why Angel Investing is Bad for Founders to Do and the VC Model is on it's Last Legs with Zach Perret @ Plaid

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How did you think about secondaries and money as you progress through the company? Like, again, I don't want to be a one sided journalist versus founder. Like for me, making a little bit of money really enabled me to think differently. And I actually super pro secondaries for founders. How do you think about it? And did it change your mindset at all?

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Why Founder Mode is Dangerous & Could Encourage Bad Behaviour | Why Fundraising is a Waste of Time & OKRs are BS | Why Angel Investing is Bad for Founders to Do and the VC Model is on it's Last Legs with Zach Perret @ Plaid

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If agentic automation sounds new, just think of UiPaths as your more growth, not more overhead platform, or your happier customers, happier employees platform. Whatever you want AI to do for your business, agentic automation with UiPath will make it happen. Try UiPath's new AI agents for free at UiPath.com. The future of automation is both agentic and robotic. Don't get left behind.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Why Founder Mode is Dangerous & Could Encourage Bad Behaviour | Why Fundraising is a Waste of Time & OKRs are BS | Why Angel Investing is Bad for Founders to Do and the VC Model is on it's Last Legs with Zach Perret @ Plaid

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And by the way, as a founder, your job is to raise money and dilute in some cases as little as possible.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Why Founder Mode is Dangerous & Could Encourage Bad Behaviour | Why Fundraising is a Waste of Time & OKRs are BS | Why Angel Investing is Bad for Founders to Do and the VC Model is on it's Last Legs with Zach Perret @ Plaid

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Did it enable you to do things that you couldn't do alone? Because that's the only thing that is cool. Like Instagram and Facebook, everyone's like, oh, what a mistake.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Why Founder Mode is Dangerous & Could Encourage Bad Behaviour | Why Fundraising is a Waste of Time & OKRs are BS | Why Angel Investing is Bad for Founders to Do and the VC Model is on it's Last Legs with Zach Perret @ Plaid

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It was a hard question. When we look at M&A more broadly, you know, I'm an investor. We think about liquidity now or never. And there is no fucking liquidity. There's no liquidity for LPs. They're choked up to their neck with lack of liquidity. And I look at M&A first and it's just completely shut. Is that a fair representation? And do you think M&A is completely shut one?

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Why Founder Mode is Dangerous & Could Encourage Bad Behaviour | Why Fundraising is a Waste of Time & OKRs are BS | Why Angel Investing is Bad for Founders to Do and the VC Model is on it's Last Legs with Zach Perret @ Plaid

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You have now arrived at your destination. Zach, I am so excited for this, dude. For me to do this in person is such joy. Also the first time we've met in person. So thank you for joining me.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Why Founder Mode is Dangerous & Could Encourage Bad Behaviour | Why Fundraising is a Waste of Time & OKRs are BS | Why Angel Investing is Bad for Founders to Do and the VC Model is on it's Last Legs with Zach Perret @ Plaid

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On IPOs, another form of liquidity. How do you think about IPO markets today? It's something, again, that as a late stage founder, you always have to be alert and awake to. How do you think about IPO markets today?

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Why Founder Mode is Dangerous & Could Encourage Bad Behaviour | Why Fundraising is a Waste of Time & OKRs are BS | Why Angel Investing is Bad for Founders to Do and the VC Model is on it's Last Legs with Zach Perret @ Plaid

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But like your Bill Gurley's of the world would say companies, he hasn't said this, but like companies of your profile should go public, should take the hit on valuation and they will grow into great companies in public markets.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Why Founder Mode is Dangerous & Could Encourage Bad Behaviour | Why Fundraising is a Waste of Time & OKRs are BS | Why Angel Investing is Bad for Founders to Do and the VC Model is on it's Last Legs with Zach Perret @ Plaid

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Someone said a great statement to me the other day. They said the heaviest things in life are not iron or gold, but unmade decisions. What unmade decision weighs on your mind most?

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Why Founder Mode is Dangerous & Could Encourage Bad Behaviour | Why Fundraising is a Waste of Time & OKRs are BS | Why Angel Investing is Bad for Founders to Do and the VC Model is on it's Last Legs with Zach Perret @ Plaid

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Those three need to go strongly together. Okay, so I'm exactly the same as you, but someone said to me wisely the other day, what you forget, Harry, is the weight of your words. And you said that with real confidence, and the team just went with it because of that. And I'm like, oh, shit. And so do you worry that actually your words carry a lot of weight?

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Why Founder Mode is Dangerous & Could Encourage Bad Behaviour | Why Fundraising is a Waste of Time & OKRs are BS | Why Angel Investing is Bad for Founders to Do and the VC Model is on it's Last Legs with Zach Perret @ Plaid

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Wow, this show packs a punch today, and such a joy to welcome Zach Paré to the hot seat. Zach is the co-founder and CEO at Plaid, where he's raised over $734 million from the likes of NEA, Spark, GV, KOTU, and Andreessen, to name a few.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Why Founder Mode is Dangerous & Could Encourage Bad Behaviour | Why Fundraising is a Waste of Time & OKRs are BS | Why Angel Investing is Bad for Founders to Do and the VC Model is on it's Last Legs with Zach Perret @ Plaid

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And because you do say things with great confidence, it's like, shit, Zach said that. I mean, fuck, let's do that.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Why Founder Mode is Dangerous & Could Encourage Bad Behaviour | Why Fundraising is a Waste of Time & OKRs are BS | Why Angel Investing is Bad for Founders to Do and the VC Model is on it's Last Legs with Zach Perret @ Plaid

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That is very, very kind of you. As I was saying, I did not start quite like this. I would love to start, though, on a little bit like the refounding moment, because Platter's had many iterations over the years. And in the last two to three years, it would seem like there's been like a refounding latest chapter. Can you just take me to that and how that's evolved?

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Why Founder Mode is Dangerous & Could Encourage Bad Behaviour | Why Fundraising is a Waste of Time & OKRs are BS | Why Angel Investing is Bad for Founders to Do and the VC Model is on it's Last Legs with Zach Perret @ Plaid

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I do think in the early days people don't talk about kind of manufacturing wins, which is like often there's just not much to celebrate. It just doesn't look that great. And I think your job as CEO is to kind of manufacture almost fake or small wins and to alleviate them into bigger wins just to carry teams through a bit stagnant times.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Why Founder Mode is Dangerous & Could Encourage Bad Behaviour | Why Fundraising is a Waste of Time & OKRs are BS | Why Angel Investing is Bad for Founders to Do and the VC Model is on it's Last Legs with Zach Perret @ Plaid

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I used to run marathons when I was young and had good knees. But you always break down by five miles, just the next five miles. But do you celebrate the five miles when you get to them? Absolutely. I would have a jelly bean. That's great. Or whatever that is. I need to learn that from you. Jelly beans. Jelly beans. Just get that. Jelly bean in my pocket.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Why Founder Mode is Dangerous & Could Encourage Bad Behaviour | Why Fundraising is a Waste of Time & OKRs are BS | Why Angel Investing is Bad for Founders to Do and the VC Model is on it's Last Legs with Zach Perret @ Plaid

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And I'd actually vary it up with a Lucozade on mile 10 or whatever that is. But I think that's really important. What trait do you have that you're a little bit ashamed of but it's also contributed to your success?

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Why Founder Mode is Dangerous & Could Encourage Bad Behaviour | Why Fundraising is a Waste of Time & OKRs are BS | Why Angel Investing is Bad for Founders to Do and the VC Model is on it's Last Legs with Zach Perret @ Plaid

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Okay, final one before we do a quick fire. Becoming a father is an incredibly seismic moment in one's life. How did becoming a father change you as a person, one, and as a leader, two?

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Why Founder Mode is Dangerous & Could Encourage Bad Behaviour | Why Fundraising is a Waste of Time & OKRs are BS | Why Angel Investing is Bad for Founders to Do and the VC Model is on it's Last Legs with Zach Perret @ Plaid

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For me, it's like excellence, which is like it doesn't have to be bigger. It doesn't have to be faster even. But it's like whatever we do, it has to be great. I care about the craft of interviewing. We don't have to do more shows or less shows, but they have to be really good shows. And whatever we produce, it has to be great.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Why Founder Mode is Dangerous & Could Encourage Bad Behaviour | Why Fundraising is a Waste of Time & OKRs are BS | Why Angel Investing is Bad for Founders to Do and the VC Model is on it's Last Legs with Zach Perret @ Plaid

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But it will ruin my day when I see a competitor do something that I think we should have done.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Why Founder Mode is Dangerous & Could Encourage Bad Behaviour | Why Fundraising is a Waste of Time & OKRs are BS | Why Angel Investing is Bad for Founders to Do and the VC Model is on it's Last Legs with Zach Perret @ Plaid

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Can I just ask one on the investing side? Sure. You have the fund now, Mischief, right?

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Why Founder Mode is Dangerous & Could Encourage Bad Behaviour | Why Fundraising is a Waste of Time & OKRs are BS | Why Angel Investing is Bad for Founders to Do and the VC Model is on it's Last Legs with Zach Perret @ Plaid

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yes yeah so this might be spice but like you raise money for plaid and you are a brilliant ceo in that respect and then you decide i'm going to invest i'm like if you're angel investing game on you do whatever you want it's your money go go for it but if you're raising money from other people and then spending time investing their money to me i'm like is that not a distraction to the core and to the investors that you've had invest in plaid and actually that's

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Why Founder Mode is Dangerous & Could Encourage Bad Behaviour | Why Fundraising is a Waste of Time & OKRs are BS | Why Angel Investing is Bad for Founders to Do and the VC Model is on it's Last Legs with Zach Perret @ Plaid

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Was there a time when you were like, oh shit, we're growing fast again and we're locked into this acquisition?

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Why Founder Mode is Dangerous & Could Encourage Bad Behaviour | Why Fundraising is a Waste of Time & OKRs are BS | Why Angel Investing is Bad for Founders to Do and the VC Model is on it's Last Legs with Zach Perret @ Plaid

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MARK BLYTH I agree completely. But we've moved from a boutique industry, as Doug Leone calls it, to a commoditized asset class.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Why Founder Mode is Dangerous & Could Encourage Bad Behaviour | Why Fundraising is a Waste of Time & OKRs are BS | Why Angel Investing is Bad for Founders to Do and the VC Model is on it's Last Legs with Zach Perret @ Plaid

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MARK MANDELMANN Do you think VCs add value? MARK MANDELMANN A few. MARK MANDELMANN In what way has a VC moved the needle for Plaid?

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Why Founder Mode is Dangerous & Could Encourage Bad Behaviour | Why Fundraising is a Waste of Time & OKRs are BS | Why Angel Investing is Bad for Founders to Do and the VC Model is on it's Last Legs with Zach Perret @ Plaid

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I spoke to him before actually. Yeah. He said you're a dick. I don't think he's ever said that word in his life. Yeah, no, he's way too nice. That was just me. But we'll cut out that last sentence from me and then he'll just be pissed. Listen, I want to do a quick fire. So I say a short statement. You give me your immediate thoughts. Sound okay? Yeah.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Why Founder Mode is Dangerous & Could Encourage Bad Behaviour | Why Fundraising is a Waste of Time & OKRs are BS | Why Angel Investing is Bad for Founders to Do and the VC Model is on it's Last Legs with Zach Perret @ Plaid

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What book written before 1965 would you most recommend? Oh man, too many. The wealth of nations. What's the most contrarian or unorthodox advice for founders listening?

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Why Founder Mode is Dangerous & Could Encourage Bad Behaviour | Why Fundraising is a Waste of Time & OKRs are BS | Why Angel Investing is Bad for Founders to Do and the VC Model is on it's Last Legs with Zach Perret @ Plaid

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MARK MANDELBACHER- If I ask you in five years' time, where would you be exceptional for Plaid to be, and where would be a fail, what would the answer be?

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Why Founder Mode is Dangerous & Could Encourage Bad Behaviour | Why Fundraising is a Waste of Time & OKRs are BS | Why Angel Investing is Bad for Founders to Do and the VC Model is on it's Last Legs with Zach Perret @ Plaid

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Zach, thank you so much for putting up with my variations and moving around schedules. You've been fantastic, and I've so enjoyed this, man.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Why Founder Mode is Dangerous & Could Encourage Bad Behaviour | Why Fundraising is a Waste of Time & OKRs are BS | Why Angel Investing is Bad for Founders to Do and the VC Model is on it's Last Legs with Zach Perret @ Plaid

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I have to say, that was such a special one for me to do. We first did our first episode together seven years ago, so to have the chance to do that in person was just fantastic. If you want to watch the full episode, you can find it on YouTube by searching for 20VC, that's 2-0-V-C. But before we leave you today, I'd like to introduce you to one of my favorite brands, Atteo.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Why Founder Mode is Dangerous & Could Encourage Bad Behaviour | Why Fundraising is a Waste of Time & OKRs are BS | Why Angel Investing is Bad for Founders to Do and the VC Model is on it's Last Legs with Zach Perret @ Plaid

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Atteo is the next generation of CRM. Setting up Atteo takes less than a minute, and in seconds of syncing your email and calendar, you'll see all your relationships in one place, all enriched with valuable data. Atio also lets you build Zapier-style automations, gives you powerful reports, and works perfectly for any go-to-market motion from PLG to sales-led.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Why Founder Mode is Dangerous & Could Encourage Bad Behaviour | Why Fundraising is a Waste of Time & OKRs are BS | Why Angel Investing is Bad for Founders to Do and the VC Model is on it's Last Legs with Zach Perret @ Plaid

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Atio is designed for the next era of companies like yours, and companies like yours shouldn't have to deal with inflexible, one-size-fits-all CRMs. Join industry leaders like Eleven Labs, Replicate, Modal, and more to scale your startup beyond the next level. Head to atio.com.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Why Founder Mode is Dangerous & Could Encourage Bad Behaviour | Why Fundraising is a Waste of Time & OKRs are BS | Why Angel Investing is Bad for Founders to Do and the VC Model is on it's Last Legs with Zach Perret @ Plaid

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And talking about incredible companies, I want to talk to you about a new venture fund making waves by taking a very different approach. It's a public venture fund anyone can invest in. not just institutions and accredited investors. The Fundrise Innovation Fund is democratizing venture capital, which could have big consequences for the industry.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Why Founder Mode is Dangerous & Could Encourage Bad Behaviour | Why Fundraising is a Waste of Time & OKRs are BS | Why Angel Investing is Bad for Founders to Do and the VC Model is on it's Last Legs with Zach Perret @ Plaid

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The fund is already off to a good start with $100 million into some of the largest, most in-demand AI and data infrastructure companies. Companies like OpenAI, Anthropic, and Databricks. Check out the Innovation Fund's impressive list of investments for yourself by visiting fundrise.com slash 20VC.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Why Founder Mode is Dangerous & Could Encourage Bad Behaviour | Why Fundraising is a Waste of Time & OKRs are BS | Why Angel Investing is Bad for Founders to Do and the VC Model is on it's Last Legs with Zach Perret @ Plaid

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Carefully consider the investment material before investing, including objectives, risks, charges, and expenses. This and other information can be found in the Innovation Fund's prospectus at fundrise.com slash innovation. This is a paid sponsorship. And finally, let me tell you about UiPath. What do Henry Ford and AI have in common? Neither could change the world without automation.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Why Founder Mode is Dangerous & Could Encourage Bad Behaviour | Why Fundraising is a Waste of Time & OKRs are BS | Why Angel Investing is Bad for Founders to Do and the VC Model is on it's Last Legs with Zach Perret @ Plaid

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In the future, there will be two types of businesses, those that have automated and those that wish they had. UiPath's new AI agents don't just follow rules. They think, make decisions,

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Why Founder Mode is Dangerous & Could Encourage Bad Behaviour | Why Fundraising is a Waste of Time & OKRs are BS | Why Angel Investing is Bad for Founders to Do and the VC Model is on it's Last Legs with Zach Perret @ Plaid

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and work alongside the world's most powerful software robots already trusted by over 10 000 businesses if agentic automation sounds new just think of ui paths as your more growth not more overhead platform or your happier customers happier employees platform whatever you want ai to do for your business agentic automation with uipath will make it happen try uipath's new ai agents for free at uipath.com the future of automation is both agentic and robotic don't get left behind

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Why Founder Mode is Dangerous & Could Encourage Bad Behaviour | Why Fundraising is a Waste of Time & OKRs are BS | Why Angel Investing is Bad for Founders to Do and the VC Model is on it's Last Legs with Zach Perret @ Plaid

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As always, I so appreciate your tuning into the show and stay tuned for an incredible 20 growth on Friday with Antoine Lanelle, head of growth at Revolut.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Why Founder Mode is Dangerous & Could Encourage Bad Behaviour | Why Fundraising is a Waste of Time & OKRs are BS | Why Angel Investing is Bad for Founders to Do and the VC Model is on it's Last Legs with Zach Perret @ Plaid

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He's also a co-founder of Mischief, an early-stage seed fund in San Francisco, and you can watch this full live episode from the studio on YouTube by searching for 20VC, that's 2-0-V-C. But before we dive in, I'd like to introduce you to one of my favorite brands, Atio. Atio is the next generation of CRM.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Why Founder Mode is Dangerous & Could Encourage Bad Behaviour | Why Fundraising is a Waste of Time & OKRs are BS | Why Angel Investing is Bad for Founders to Do and the VC Model is on it's Last Legs with Zach Perret @ Plaid

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How did you think about resource allocation between the products? Were you like, hey, split investment across all three. One's a much bigger opportunity. Let's put 80% here and 10 and 10. How did you think about that? First off, actually, that's a shit question. Do you believe that the best CEOs are the best resource allocators?

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Why Founder Mode is Dangerous & Could Encourage Bad Behaviour | Why Fundraising is a Waste of Time & OKRs are BS | Why Angel Investing is Bad for Founders to Do and the VC Model is on it's Last Legs with Zach Perret @ Plaid

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MARK BLYTHEUSE- So when you look at the three products, how did you approach the resource allocation problem?

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Why Founder Mode is Dangerous & Could Encourage Bad Behaviour | Why Fundraising is a Waste of Time & OKRs are BS | Why Angel Investing is Bad for Founders to Do and the VC Model is on it's Last Legs with Zach Perret @ Plaid

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Setting up Atio takes less than a minute and in seconds of syncing your email and calendar you'll see all your relationships in one place, all enriched with valuable data. Atio also lets you build Zapier style automations, gives you powerful reports and works perfectly for any go-to-market motion from PLG to sales-led. Atio is designed for the next

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Why Founder Mode is Dangerous & Could Encourage Bad Behaviour | Why Fundraising is a Waste of Time & OKRs are BS | Why Angel Investing is Bad for Founders to Do and the VC Model is on it's Last Legs with Zach Perret @ Plaid

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MARK MANDELMANN- And then you do milestone-based financing, which is like, hey, if we find sufficient product market fit, we'll open up new resources. How do you think about the next stage post-Atomic team?

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Why Founder Mode is Dangerous & Could Encourage Bad Behaviour | Why Fundraising is a Waste of Time & OKRs are BS | Why Angel Investing is Bad for Founders to Do and the VC Model is on it's Last Legs with Zach Perret @ Plaid

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In terms of the problems that they're pursuing, we chatted before and you said to me about a brilliant style of problem that you like called the grinder problem. Yeah. But I just wanted to ask, what is a Grindr problem? And why do you find them attractive to do as a company?

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Why Founder Mode is Dangerous & Could Encourage Bad Behaviour | Why Fundraising is a Waste of Time & OKRs are BS | Why Angel Investing is Bad for Founders to Do and the VC Model is on it's Last Legs with Zach Perret @ Plaid

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era of companies like yours and companies like yours shouldn't have to deal with inflexible one size fits all crms join industry leaders like 11 labs replicate modal and more to scale your startup beyond the next level head to atio.com slash 20 vc and you'll get 15 off your first year That's ATTIO.com slash 20VC.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Why Founder Mode is Dangerous & Could Encourage Bad Behaviour | Why Fundraising is a Waste of Time & OKRs are BS | Why Angel Investing is Bad for Founders to Do and the VC Model is on it's Last Legs with Zach Perret @ Plaid

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So I was talking to actually one of my partners on the investing team yesterday, and they were saying, but there's no defensibility in the company. And it's like a seed company. It's like two customers and 400k in revenue. There's no defensibility. I'm like, I don't really think any startup has defensibility on day one.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Why Founder Mode is Dangerous & Could Encourage Bad Behaviour | Why Fundraising is a Waste of Time & OKRs are BS | Why Angel Investing is Bad for Founders to Do and the VC Model is on it's Last Legs with Zach Perret @ Plaid

771.459

MARK BLYTHER- Are they, if they're coming from 10 years with knowledge of the banking sector? Do you see what I mean?

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Why Founder Mode is Dangerous & Could Encourage Bad Behaviour | Why Fundraising is a Waste of Time & OKRs are BS | Why Angel Investing is Bad for Founders to Do and the VC Model is on it's Last Legs with Zach Perret @ Plaid

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MARK BLYTHER- On the experience side, are there areas where more experience is dangerous?

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Why Founder Mode is Dangerous & Could Encourage Bad Behaviour | Why Fundraising is a Waste of Time & OKRs are BS | Why Angel Investing is Bad for Founders to Do and the VC Model is on it's Last Legs with Zach Perret @ Plaid

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What about discoverability? And what I mean by that is I think recruiting is like a search for the truth. And that sounds super lofty and like I've just swallowed a Jay Shetty book. But it's like win-loss assumes you want them.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Why Founder Mode is Dangerous & Could Encourage Bad Behaviour | Why Fundraising is a Waste of Time & OKRs are BS | Why Angel Investing is Bad for Founders to Do and the VC Model is on it's Last Legs with Zach Perret @ Plaid

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Okay, let's start on finding them. I heard you are amazing, actually, in terms of your outreach. If you find great talent, what have been your biggest lessons on how to do outreach well? Just be yourself and do it.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Why Founder Mode is Dangerous & Could Encourage Bad Behaviour | Why Fundraising is a Waste of Time & OKRs are BS | Why Angel Investing is Bad for Founders to Do and the VC Model is on it's Last Legs with Zach Perret @ Plaid

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And talking about incredible companies, I want to talk to you about a new venture fund making waves by taking a very different approach. It's a public venture fund anyone can invest in, not just institutions and accredited investors. The Fundrise Innovation Fund is democratizing venture capital, which could have big consequences for the industry.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Why Founder Mode is Dangerous & Could Encourage Bad Behaviour | Why Fundraising is a Waste of Time & OKRs are BS | Why Angel Investing is Bad for Founders to Do and the VC Model is on it's Last Legs with Zach Perret @ Plaid

953.925

Yeah, I totally agree. I think short and succinct is really important. Totally. I get a time where they're like four pages and that's long.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Why Founder Mode is Dangerous & Could Encourage Bad Behaviour | Why Fundraising is a Waste of Time & OKRs are BS | Why Angel Investing is Bad for Founders to Do and the VC Model is on it's Last Legs with Zach Perret @ Plaid

970.375

Okay, so we get on the call or we get in a process with this person. In terms of talent assessment, how have you changed your approach, mindset, appreciation towards talent assessment?

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Scaling ServiceNow to $5BN in ARR | Leadership Lessons from Doug Leone, Frank Slootman and Bill McDermott | VC Value Add: Is it Real and Why the Worst VCs are "Seagull VCs"

107.4

And talking about incredible companies with Command Bar, I want to talk to you about a new venture fund making waves by taking a very different approach. It's a public venture fund anyone can invest in. not just institutions and accredited investors. The Fundrise Innovation Fund is democratizing venture capital, which could have big consequences for the industry.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Scaling ServiceNow to $5BN in ARR | Leadership Lessons from Doug Leone, Frank Slootman and Bill McDermott | VC Value Add: Is it Real and Why the Worst VCs are "Seagull VCs"

127.085

The fund is already off to a good start with $100 million into some of the largest, most in-demand AI and data infrastructure companies. Companies like OpenAI, Anthropic, and Databricks. Check out the Innovation Fund's impressive list of investments for yourself by visiting fundrise.com slash 20VC.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Scaling ServiceNow to $5BN in ARR | Leadership Lessons from Doug Leone, Frank Slootman and Bill McDermott | VC Value Add: Is it Real and Why the Worst VCs are "Seagull VCs"

146.365

Carefully consider the investment material before investing, including objectives, risks, charges and expenses. This and other information can be found in the Innovation Fund's prospectus at fundrise.com slash innovation. This is a paid sponsorship. And finally, let's talk about Squarespace. Squarespace is the all-in-one website platform for entrepreneurs to stand out and succeed online.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Scaling ServiceNow to $5BN in ARR | Leadership Lessons from Doug Leone, Frank Slootman and Bill McDermott | VC Value Add: Is it Real and Why the Worst VCs are "Seagull VCs"

169.064

Whether you're just starting out or managing a growing brand, Squarespace makes it easy to create a beautiful website, engage with your audience, and sell anything from products to content all in one place, all on your terms. What's blown me away is the Squarespace Blueprint AI and SEO tools.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Scaling ServiceNow to $5BN in ARR | Leadership Lessons from Doug Leone, Frank Slootman and Bill McDermott | VC Value Add: Is it Real and Why the Worst VCs are "Seagull VCs"

184.773

It's like crafting your site with a guided system, ensuring it not only reflects your unique style, but also ranks well on search engines. Plus, their flexible payment options cater to every customer's needs, making transactions smooth and hassle-free. And the Squarespace AI? It's a content wizard helping you whip up text that truly resonates with your brand voice.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Scaling ServiceNow to $5BN in ARR | Leadership Lessons from Doug Leone, Frank Slootman and Bill McDermott | VC Value Add: Is it Real and Why the Worst VCs are "Seagull VCs"

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So if you're ready to get started, head to squarespace.com for a free trial. And when you're ready to launch, go to squarespace.com slash 20VC and use the code 20VC to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Scaling ServiceNow to $5BN in ARR | Leadership Lessons from Doug Leone, Frank Slootman and Bill McDermott | VC Value Add: Is it Real and Why the Worst VCs are "Seagull VCs"

26.812

This is 20VC with me, Harry Stebbings, and our guest today is one of the greatest operators of the last 30 years, David Schneider. David scaled ServiceNow to over $100 billion market cap and from $100 million in revenue to $5 billion in revenue. Before ServiceNow, David was at Dated Domain, where he joined at $0 in revenue and scaled to a billion in revenue and an IPO and an acquisition.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Scaling ServiceNow to $5BN in ARR | Leadership Lessons from Doug Leone, Frank Slootman and Bill McDermott | VC Value Add: Is it Real and Why the Worst VCs are "Seagull VCs"

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I absolutely loved having David on the show there. What an incredible operator and just 30 years of operating experience to learn from. I want to say a huge thank you, Tim, for joining me today. If you'd like to watch the full episode, then you can find it on YouTube by searching for 20VC. That's 20VC. But before we leave you today, all of you listening use tons of software every day.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Scaling ServiceNow to $5BN in ARR | Leadership Lessons from Doug Leone, Frank Slootman and Bill McDermott | VC Value Add: Is it Real and Why the Worst VCs are "Seagull VCs"

3816.414

Sometimes it fills us with rage. You can't figure something out. The chatbot in the bottom right is useless. You keep getting bombarded with these useless pop-ups. And for those of you who build products, no one wants their product to feel like this. Thankfully, a company exists to help users without annoying them, CommandBar. It does a couple of very helpful things.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Scaling ServiceNow to $5BN in ARR | Leadership Lessons from Doug Leone, Frank Slootman and Bill McDermott | VC Value Add: Is it Real and Why the Worst VCs are "Seagull VCs"

3834.971

First, it's a chatbot that uses AI to give users extremely personalized responses and deflect tickets. But it can be beyond just text. It can also co-browse with the user and show them how to do things inside the UI. Magic. But it can also detect when users would benefit from a proactive nudge, like a helpful hint, or an invitation to start a free trial.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Scaling ServiceNow to $5BN in ARR | Leadership Lessons from Doug Leone, Frank Slootman and Bill McDermott | VC Value Add: Is it Real and Why the Worst VCs are "Seagull VCs"

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CommandBar is already used by world-class companies like Gusto, HashiCorp, Yotpo, and Angelist. If you're a product CX or marketing leader, check them out at commandbar.com slash harry. And talking about incredible companies with Command Bar, I want to talk to you about a new venture fund making waves by taking a very different approach. It's a public venture fund anyone can invest in.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Scaling ServiceNow to $5BN in ARR | Leadership Lessons from Doug Leone, Frank Slootman and Bill McDermott | VC Value Add: Is it Real and Why the Worst VCs are "Seagull VCs"

3875.862

Not just institutions and accredited investors. The Fundrise Innovation Fund is democratizing venture capital, which could have big consequences for the industry. The fund is already off to a good start with $100 million into some of the largest, most in-demand AI and data infrastructure companies. Companies like OpenAI, Anthropic and Databricks.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Scaling ServiceNow to $5BN in ARR | Leadership Lessons from Doug Leone, Frank Slootman and Bill McDermott | VC Value Add: Is it Real and Why the Worst VCs are "Seagull VCs"

3896.741

Check out the Innovation Fund's impressive list of investments for yourself by visiting fundrise.com slash 20VC. Carefully consider the investment material before investing, including objectives, risks, charges, and expenses. This and other information can be found in the Innovation Fund's prospectus at fundrise.com slash innovation. This is a paid sponsorship.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Scaling ServiceNow to $5BN in ARR | Leadership Lessons from Doug Leone, Frank Slootman and Bill McDermott | VC Value Add: Is it Real and Why the Worst VCs are "Seagull VCs"

3919.068

And finally, let's talk about Squarespace. Squarespace is the all-in-one website platform for entrepreneurs to stand out and succeed online. Whether you're just starting out or managing a growing brand, Squarespace makes it easy to create a beautiful website, engage with your audience, and sell anything from products to content all in one place, all on your terms.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Scaling ServiceNow to $5BN in ARR | Leadership Lessons from Doug Leone, Frank Slootman and Bill McDermott | VC Value Add: Is it Real and Why the Worst VCs are "Seagull VCs"

3938.655

What's blown me away is the Squarespace Blueprint AI and SEO tools. It's like crafting your site with a guided system, ensuring it not only reflects your unique style, but also ranks well on search engines. Plus, their flexible payment options cater to every customer's needs, making transactions smooth and hassle-free. And the Squarespace AI?

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Scaling ServiceNow to $5BN in ARR | Leadership Lessons from Doug Leone, Frank Slootman and Bill McDermott | VC Value Add: Is it Real and Why the Worst VCs are "Seagull VCs"

3957.69

It's a content wizard helping you whip up text that truly resonates with your brand voice. So if you're ready to get started, head to squarespace.com for a free trial. And when you're ready to launch, go to squarespace.com slash 20VC and use the code 20VC to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Scaling ServiceNow to $5BN in ARR | Leadership Lessons from Doug Leone, Frank Slootman and Bill McDermott | VC Value Add: Is it Real and Why the Worst VCs are "Seagull VCs"

3975.978

As always, I so appreciate all your support and stay tuned for an incredible 20 product coming this Friday with DeepMind's head of product.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Scaling ServiceNow to $5BN in ARR | Leadership Lessons from Doug Leone, Frank Slootman and Bill McDermott | VC Value Add: Is it Real and Why the Worst VCs are "Seagull VCs"

51.403

Today, he is a general partner at KOTU. But before we dive in today, all of you listening use tons of software every day. Sometimes it fills us with rage. You can't figure something out. The chatbot in the bottom right is useless. You keep getting bombarded with these useless pop-ups. And for those of you who build products, no one wants their product to feel like this.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Scaling ServiceNow to $5BN in ARR | Leadership Lessons from Doug Leone, Frank Slootman and Bill McDermott | VC Value Add: Is it Real and Why the Worst VCs are "Seagull VCs"

70.641

Thankfully, a company exists to help users without annoying them, CommandBar. It does a couple of very helpful things. First, it's a chatbot that uses AI to give users extremely personalized responses and deflect tickets. But it can be beyond just text. It can also co-browse with the user and show them how to do things inside the UI. Magic.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Scaling ServiceNow to $5BN in ARR | Leadership Lessons from Doug Leone, Frank Slootman and Bill McDermott | VC Value Add: Is it Real and Why the Worst VCs are "Seagull VCs"

89.821

But it can also detect when users would benefit from a proactive nudge, like a helpful hint, or an invitation to start a free trial. CommandBar is already used by world-class companies like Gusto, HashiCorp, Yotpo, and Angelist. If you're a product CX or marketing leader, check them out at commandbar.com slash harry.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Sequoia Capital's $9BN Global Equities Fund on The Future for NVIDIA, Google & Meta | How to Play AI in the Public Markets | China & Europe: Is the Future Bleak | The Opportunity for Crossover Funds with Jeff Wang, Managing Partner @ SCGE

1073.605

Because if you're always looking for the opportunity cost of capital increase, in other words, that if I sell here, I can put it elsewhere, it could force you to sell something you shouldn't or keep something that you shouldn't.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Sequoia Capital's $9BN Global Equities Fund on The Future for NVIDIA, Google & Meta | How to Play AI in the Public Markets | China & Europe: Is the Future Bleak | The Opportunity for Crossover Funds with Jeff Wang, Managing Partner @ SCGE

1155.1

Where was it 10% and it didn't matter, actually? And where was it 18 months ahead of time and we needed to make a transition or a change?

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Sequoia Capital's $9BN Global Equities Fund on The Future for NVIDIA, Google & Meta | How to Play AI in the Public Markets | China & Europe: Is the Future Bleak | The Opportunity for Crossover Funds with Jeff Wang, Managing Partner @ SCGE

116.256

And talking about incredible companies, I want to talk to you about a new venture fund making waves by taking a very different approach. It's a public venture fund anyone can invest in. not just institutions and accredited investors. The Fundrise Innovation Fund is democratizing venture capital, which could have big consequences for the industry.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Sequoia Capital's $9BN Global Equities Fund on The Future for NVIDIA, Google & Meta | How to Play AI in the Public Markets | China & Europe: Is the Future Bleak | The Opportunity for Crossover Funds with Jeff Wang, Managing Partner @ SCGE

1191.741

Which portfolio has performed better, the buy and hold of portfolio company stock from Sequoia's existing portfolio or the net new?

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Sequoia Capital's $9BN Global Equities Fund on The Future for NVIDIA, Google & Meta | How to Play AI in the Public Markets | China & Europe: Is the Future Bleak | The Opportunity for Crossover Funds with Jeff Wang, Managing Partner @ SCGE

1225.198

Dude, I got to talk about that. Why do that? That seems to kind of muddy the waters a little bit. Suddenly, we're now a crossover fund. We're moving into late growth rounds, which are traditionally much less data. Pricing is not great, actually. We still haven't reached that kind of realization moment in a lot of cases quite yet of public markets.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Sequoia Capital's $9BN Global Equities Fund on The Future for NVIDIA, Google & Meta | How to Play AI in the Public Markets | China & Europe: Is the Future Bleak | The Opportunity for Crossover Funds with Jeff Wang, Managing Partner @ SCGE

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Would you not have had that existing from Doug's partnership with them? My question is, does it need your attendance at the pre-IPO stage if you just have great tie-ins with the Sequoia board member?

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Sequoia Capital's $9BN Global Equities Fund on The Future for NVIDIA, Google & Meta | How to Play AI in the Public Markets | China & Europe: Is the Future Bleak | The Opportunity for Crossover Funds with Jeff Wang, Managing Partner @ SCGE

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The fund is already off to a good start with $100 million into some of the largest, most in-demand AI and data infrastructure companies. Companies like OpenAI, Anthropic, and Databricks Check out the Innovation Fund's impressive list of investments for yourself by visiting fundrise.com slash 20VC.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Sequoia Capital's $9BN Global Equities Fund on The Future for NVIDIA, Google & Meta | How to Play AI in the Public Markets | China & Europe: Is the Future Bleak | The Opportunity for Crossover Funds with Jeff Wang, Managing Partner @ SCGE

1380.658

Laugh me with a lot to go with that. I have to ask with the crossover in mind, do you think private markets ultimately are going to compete and overtake public markets when it comes to volume, depth of activity in various asset classes?

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Sequoia Capital's $9BN Global Equities Fund on The Future for NVIDIA, Google & Meta | How to Play AI in the Public Markets | China & Europe: Is the Future Bleak | The Opportunity for Crossover Funds with Jeff Wang, Managing Partner @ SCGE

1428.104

I mean, I think he's also doing the most brilliant rebranding with his kind of removal of all software products and customer service products. Brilliant founder brand being created there. Are continuation funds helpful or do you think they're just adding to the pre-IPO backlog that we have?

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Sequoia Capital's $9BN Global Equities Fund on The Future for NVIDIA, Google & Meta | How to Play AI in the Public Markets | China & Europe: Is the Future Bleak | The Opportunity for Crossover Funds with Jeff Wang, Managing Partner @ SCGE

1467.435

Philippe Lafont published this kind of IPO data, and it was actually showing that we're actually worse than the financial crisis in terms of number of IPOs. Yeah.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Sequoia Capital's $9BN Global Equities Fund on The Future for NVIDIA, Google & Meta | How to Play AI in the Public Markets | China & Europe: Is the Future Bleak | The Opportunity for Crossover Funds with Jeff Wang, Managing Partner @ SCGE

154.312

Carefully consider the investment material before investing, including objectives, risks, charges and expenses. This and other information can be found in the Innovation Fund's prospectus at fundrise.com slash innovation. This is a paid sponsorship. And finally, let me tell you about UiPath. What do Henry Ford and AI have in common? Neither could change the world without automation.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Sequoia Capital's $9BN Global Equities Fund on The Future for NVIDIA, Google & Meta | How to Play AI in the Public Markets | China & Europe: Is the Future Bleak | The Opportunity for Crossover Funds with Jeff Wang, Managing Partner @ SCGE

1560.002

Why would you? So if you are Starlink or you're Stripe or you're any of these great firms, you can bluntly finance in private markets for as long as you need to. There is such a supply side if you're a great company. And they've shown that. Why would you go public even if you could?

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Sequoia Capital's $9BN Global Equities Fund on The Future for NVIDIA, Google & Meta | How to Play AI in the Public Markets | China & Europe: Is the Future Bleak | The Opportunity for Crossover Funds with Jeff Wang, Managing Partner @ SCGE

1583.263

I mean, I don't... I don't know with secondary markets being as transactional as they are today. Many people are getting secondaries on all of their stakes.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Sequoia Capital's $9BN Global Equities Fund on The Future for NVIDIA, Google & Meta | How to Play AI in the Public Markets | China & Europe: Is the Future Bleak | The Opportunity for Crossover Funds with Jeff Wang, Managing Partner @ SCGE

1615.508

Yeah. So with this realization, actually, that right now we see more opportunity in public markets, okay, and we're going to stay away from late-stage privates for now, what does that reshaping, resizing of the portfolio look like in reality then?

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Sequoia Capital's $9BN Global Equities Fund on The Future for NVIDIA, Google & Meta | How to Play AI in the Public Markets | China & Europe: Is the Future Bleak | The Opportunity for Crossover Funds with Jeff Wang, Managing Partner @ SCGE

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Have you ever had it where both your long and your short were in Congress? And what I mean by that is, you know, if we said, hey, I'm just making it up here. I'm going to bet on Shopify. And as a result, I'm going to short Amazon. And actually, you were right and you were wrong. Yeah. E-commerce just grew and both went up.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Sequoia Capital's $9BN Global Equities Fund on The Future for NVIDIA, Google & Meta | How to Play AI in the Public Markets | China & Europe: Is the Future Bleak | The Opportunity for Crossover Funds with Jeff Wang, Managing Partner @ SCGE

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In the future, there will be two types of businesses, those that have automated and those that wish they had. UiPath's new AI agents don't just follow rules. They think, make decisions, and work alongside the world's most powerful software robots, already trusted by over 10,000 businesses. Jeff, I am so excited for this, dude.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Sequoia Capital's $9BN Global Equities Fund on The Future for NVIDIA, Google & Meta | How to Play AI in the Public Markets | China & Europe: Is the Future Bleak | The Opportunity for Crossover Funds with Jeff Wang, Managing Partner @ SCGE

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What theme did you swim towards, plant a flag, and the boat never came to that island? Honestly, we haven't.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Sequoia Capital's $9BN Global Equities Fund on The Future for NVIDIA, Google & Meta | How to Play AI in the Public Markets | China & Europe: Is the Future Bleak | The Opportunity for Crossover Funds with Jeff Wang, Managing Partner @ SCGE

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I did the same. Everything was good. And then I saw Jeff left and I was like, right. I fucked it. I'm fucked. Like, yeah, good. Fuck. There's that moment when you're like, ah, bugger. That's the final nail. And I remember one of my oldest mentors told me, Harry, be greedy when others are fearful and fearful when others are greedy. Do you buy that?

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Sequoia Capital's $9BN Global Equities Fund on The Future for NVIDIA, Google & Meta | How to Play AI in the Public Markets | China & Europe: Is the Future Bleak | The Opportunity for Crossover Funds with Jeff Wang, Managing Partner @ SCGE

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Dude, this is why I think private and public at the same time, you're a freaking genius. Because Harry sees CrowdStrike, you know, get hit to shit. And I'm like, down 20%, still a great business, still love the management team, bye. Next day, legal lawsuits, just like down another 20%. I'm like, maybe, maybe timing is important, you know?

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Sequoia Capital's $9BN Global Equities Fund on The Future for NVIDIA, Google & Meta | How to Play AI in the Public Markets | China & Europe: Is the Future Bleak | The Opportunity for Crossover Funds with Jeff Wang, Managing Partner @ SCGE

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But thank you. I'm still down. So I'll keep holding, holding out for that one. Can I just go back to a really interesting element for me, though, which is actually the building of the business side, which is, you know, you started, as you mentioned, there were like 50 million of partner money. I think it was. Can you take me to fundraising for this business?

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Sequoia Capital's $9BN Global Equities Fund on The Future for NVIDIA, Google & Meta | How to Play AI in the Public Markets | China & Europe: Is the Future Bleak | The Opportunity for Crossover Funds with Jeff Wang, Managing Partner @ SCGE

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Listen, I spoke to Mike, I spoke to Doug, I spoke to Pat, many of our mutual friends. So thank you so much for joining me today.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Sequoia Capital's $9BN Global Equities Fund on The Future for NVIDIA, Google & Meta | How to Play AI in the Public Markets | China & Europe: Is the Future Bleak | The Opportunity for Crossover Funds with Jeff Wang, Managing Partner @ SCGE

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I'm so sorry for such a naive question, but I'm from the venture world. How on earth can anyone plan their business on a long-term horizon when you have monthly redemptions?

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Sequoia Capital's $9BN Global Equities Fund on The Future for NVIDIA, Google & Meta | How to Play AI in the Public Markets | China & Europe: Is the Future Bleak | The Opportunity for Crossover Funds with Jeff Wang, Managing Partner @ SCGE

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There are so many benefits to being tied to such great people and such a great brand. What are the negatives?

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Sequoia Capital's $9BN Global Equities Fund on The Future for NVIDIA, Google & Meta | How to Play AI in the Public Markets | China & Europe: Is the Future Bleak | The Opportunity for Crossover Funds with Jeff Wang, Managing Partner @ SCGE

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So I completely agree with you there. I think there is still a tremendous amount of room to run. Is Mag7 sustainable? It is carrying so much of this market.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Sequoia Capital's $9BN Global Equities Fund on The Future for NVIDIA, Google & Meta | How to Play AI in the Public Markets | China & Europe: Is the Future Bleak | The Opportunity for Crossover Funds with Jeff Wang, Managing Partner @ SCGE

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I pay them a lot of money to say things. And that's a big spend. Listen, I want to start in the early days, which is how did you come to join SCG? Just take me to that offer moment and the joining.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Sequoia Capital's $9BN Global Equities Fund on The Future for NVIDIA, Google & Meta | How to Play AI in the Public Markets | China & Europe: Is the Future Bleak | The Opportunity for Crossover Funds with Jeff Wang, Managing Partner @ SCGE

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How does Zuck's cash cow not being cloud impact his freedom and flexibility to act? If you think about Google on Amazon, you've got Google Cloud, cash cow, AWS, cash cow. And then Zuck is like, Instagram is the cash cow. How does that change how he acts? Because Google and Amazon do also have distribution.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Sequoia Capital's $9BN Global Equities Fund on The Future for NVIDIA, Google & Meta | How to Play AI in the Public Markets | China & Europe: Is the Future Bleak | The Opportunity for Crossover Funds with Jeff Wang, Managing Partner @ SCGE

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I tell you what I want. Would you be short or long, Google, to say, just in a hypothetical world, you've got perplexity eating a lot of consumers fast?

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Sequoia Capital's $9BN Global Equities Fund on The Future for NVIDIA, Google & Meta | How to Play AI in the Public Markets | China & Europe: Is the Future Bleak | The Opportunity for Crossover Funds with Jeff Wang, Managing Partner @ SCGE

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I totally agree with you. You also have SearchGPT, by the way, obviously from OpenAI, which will be a pretty dominant competitor, I think. A question that I am perpetually stuck by, will the infusion of AI into products lead to an increase in average revenue per user, or will it just lead to a better customer experience?

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Sequoia Capital's $9BN Global Equities Fund on The Future for NVIDIA, Google & Meta | How to Play AI in the Public Markets | China & Europe: Is the Future Bleak | The Opportunity for Crossover Funds with Jeff Wang, Managing Partner @ SCGE

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A lot of flow through, I think. Can I ask, on the infrastructure layer, do you agree with David in terms of the $600 billion question and the divergence between revenue and CapEx? How do you feel about that?

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Sequoia Capital's $9BN Global Equities Fund on The Future for NVIDIA, Google & Meta | How to Play AI in the Public Markets | China & Europe: Is the Future Bleak | The Opportunity for Crossover Funds with Jeff Wang, Managing Partner @ SCGE

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Larry Ellison yesterday said, how much do you think it is to the audience? How much do you think it is? I don't know if you saw this clip. And then he goes a hundred billion just to play the game, just to enter. What do you think that's right?

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Sequoia Capital's $9BN Global Equities Fund on The Future for NVIDIA, Google & Meta | How to Play AI in the Public Markets | China & Europe: Is the Future Bleak | The Opportunity for Crossover Funds with Jeff Wang, Managing Partner @ SCGE

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This is 20VC with me, Harry Stebbings, and I promised you the best guests in the world that have never done a podcast before. Today is exactly that. Jeff Wang has scaled Sequoia Capital global equities from $50 million of internal partner funds to $9 billion in assets under management, and he's invested $3 billion into private companies like ByteDance, SpaceX, and Stripe.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Sequoia Capital's $9BN Global Equities Fund on The Future for NVIDIA, Google & Meta | How to Play AI in the Public Markets | China & Europe: Is the Future Bleak | The Opportunity for Crossover Funds with Jeff Wang, Managing Partner @ SCGE

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The other thing that stuck out to me at Larry Ellison's talk was when he said, it was me and Elon sitting down in Nobu with Jensen, and we were both just trying to buy GPUs. And, you know, your natural takeaway is, holy shit, when you have Larry Ellison and Elon Musk begging a provider, please take my money, invest in the provider. Right. But NVIDIA's price is so high.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Sequoia Capital's $9BN Global Equities Fund on The Future for NVIDIA, Google & Meta | How to Play AI in the Public Markets | China & Europe: Is the Future Bleak | The Opportunity for Crossover Funds with Jeff Wang, Managing Partner @ SCGE

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Is 26 up another 30%? I spoke to one of them the other day who will ruin my nameless, otherwise I will literally be sued. But they were like, it's like the Manhattan Project, Harry. Yeah. We can't back out now. Right. So 26 is going to be higher.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Sequoia Capital's $9BN Global Equities Fund on The Future for NVIDIA, Google & Meta | How to Play AI in the Public Markets | China & Europe: Is the Future Bleak | The Opportunity for Crossover Funds with Jeff Wang, Managing Partner @ SCGE

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Have you gone into the infrastructure establishment category? Have you gone into really the data center deployment space?

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Sequoia Capital's $9BN Global Equities Fund on The Future for NVIDIA, Google & Meta | How to Play AI in the Public Markets | China & Europe: Is the Future Bleak | The Opportunity for Crossover Funds with Jeff Wang, Managing Partner @ SCGE

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You've mentioned Klarna several times. Everyone is beating the crap out of Europe right now. Degrowth, no growth, unbelievable regulation. How do you think about the long-term prospects of Europe and how you think about resource allocation? Does Europe even matter?

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Sequoia Capital's $9BN Global Equities Fund on The Future for NVIDIA, Google & Meta | How to Play AI in the Public Markets | China & Europe: Is the Future Bleak | The Opportunity for Crossover Funds with Jeff Wang, Managing Partner @ SCGE

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Amazingly so. I mean, that is, you know, Revolut tried, Monzo tried different products completely, but that is a very hard expansion.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Sequoia Capital's $9BN Global Equities Fund on The Future for NVIDIA, Google & Meta | How to Play AI in the Public Markets | China & Europe: Is the Future Bleak | The Opportunity for Crossover Funds with Jeff Wang, Managing Partner @ SCGE

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Do you worry that we're going to go through a period of de-globalization? I worry about this intensely, which is that we've spent the last few decades, obviously, globalizing incredibly well. And now we are more insular than ever before.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Sequoia Capital's $9BN Global Equities Fund on The Future for NVIDIA, Google & Meta | How to Play AI in the Public Markets | China & Europe: Is the Future Bleak | The Opportunity for Crossover Funds with Jeff Wang, Managing Partner @ SCGE

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Shein has gone global. Final one, and then I promise we'll do a quick fire. Everyone's so jacked up about India these days. India is kind of a bit like Europe in my mind, which everyone's kind of always going, now's the time. Now's the time. Wait for it. Wait for it. And we're still waiting.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Sequoia Capital's $9BN Global Equities Fund on The Future for NVIDIA, Google & Meta | How to Play AI in the Public Markets | China & Europe: Is the Future Bleak | The Opportunity for Crossover Funds with Jeff Wang, Managing Partner @ SCGE

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You have had the chance to work with Doug, with Mike, with Roloff. Before we do the quickfire. Yeah. What is your single biggest lesson from working with Doug?

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Sequoia Capital's $9BN Global Equities Fund on The Future for NVIDIA, Google & Meta | How to Play AI in the Public Markets | China & Europe: Is the Future Bleak | The Opportunity for Crossover Funds with Jeff Wang, Managing Partner @ SCGE

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He said that you then showed this specifically nose for longs and unique ability to make the transition between the two. How did you make the transition so successfully between the shorts to longs? And how do you assess that today?

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Sequoia Capital's $9BN Global Equities Fund on The Future for NVIDIA, Google & Meta | How to Play AI in the Public Markets | China & Europe: Is the Future Bleak | The Opportunity for Crossover Funds with Jeff Wang, Managing Partner @ SCGE

3726.842

I want to do a quick fire with you, Jeff. I can talk to you all day. What do you believe that most around you disbelieve?

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Sequoia Capital's $9BN Global Equities Fund on The Future for NVIDIA, Google & Meta | How to Play AI in the Public Markets | China & Europe: Is the Future Bleak | The Opportunity for Crossover Funds with Jeff Wang, Managing Partner @ SCGE

3782.995

I actually spoke to him before this show. Oh, really? Because I was like, right, who does private crossover that comes straight to mind? Brad. He was very helpful. What's been the most challenging moment in the SCG journey other than the 2016 transition?

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Sequoia Capital's $9BN Global Equities Fund on The Future for NVIDIA, Google & Meta | How to Play AI in the Public Markets | China & Europe: Is the Future Bleak | The Opportunity for Crossover Funds with Jeff Wang, Managing Partner @ SCGE

3895.61

The heaviest things in life are not iron or gold, but unmade decisions. What unmade decision rests on you most significantly?

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Sequoia Capital's $9BN Global Equities Fund on The Future for NVIDIA, Google & Meta | How to Play AI in the Public Markets | China & Europe: Is the Future Bleak | The Opportunity for Crossover Funds with Jeff Wang, Managing Partner @ SCGE

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I say technology- You've never seen the explosion of CapEx. You've never seen- Oh, that, that, so- 100 billion- I thought you were talking about the markets.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Sequoia Capital's $9BN Global Equities Fund on The Future for NVIDIA, Google & Meta | How to Play AI in the Public Markets | China & Europe: Is the Future Bleak | The Opportunity for Crossover Funds with Jeff Wang, Managing Partner @ SCGE

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I was with a dear friend the other day who's been married for 40 years. He said, Harry, you don't understand marriage. I said, no, I don't. Tell me. And they said, marriage is not about happiness. No, no, no. It is about endurance. Who can survive longer? There's not a way to think about it. I was like, you know what? That's romantic. Thank you for that inspiring words of wisdom.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Sequoia Capital's $9BN Global Equities Fund on The Future for NVIDIA, Google & Meta | How to Play AI in the Public Markets | China & Europe: Is the Future Bleak | The Opportunity for Crossover Funds with Jeff Wang, Managing Partner @ SCGE

4077.88

Final one for you, Jeff. What question are you not often asked by your team, by your investors, by your partners that you should be asked more?

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Sequoia Capital's $9BN Global Equities Fund on The Future for NVIDIA, Google & Meta | How to Play AI in the Public Markets | China & Europe: Is the Future Bleak | The Opportunity for Crossover Funds with Jeff Wang, Managing Partner @ SCGE

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It's kind of the same ish, but not, which is I'd be a filmmaker. And the reason I'd be a filmmaker is because I love telling people's stories and I find people fascinating. And we kind of do that. Why am I so jacked about our episode? Because you are a phenomenal talent, Jeff, that the world has not heard from. It gives me great joy to be someone who is able to tell a little bit of your story.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Sequoia Capital's $9BN Global Equities Fund on The Future for NVIDIA, Google & Meta | How to Play AI in the Public Markets | China & Europe: Is the Future Bleak | The Opportunity for Crossover Funds with Jeff Wang, Managing Partner @ SCGE

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Being a filmmaker, you're able to bring a light to previously very opaque areas, which should be told. That's a different medium. I mean, maybe you should do that too. I think Dave Fialkow's nailed it first before moving from venture investor to filmmaker. Jeff, I've so enjoyed this. Thank you so much for making this your first podcast. And honestly, it's been fantastic.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Sequoia Capital's $9BN Global Equities Fund on The Future for NVIDIA, Google & Meta | How to Play AI in the Public Markets | China & Europe: Is the Future Bleak | The Opportunity for Crossover Funds with Jeff Wang, Managing Partner @ SCGE

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It's been really fun for me too. Thanks a lot, Harry. The first time Jeff has ever done a podcast. I thought he was incredible. If you want to watch the full interview, you can find it on YouTube by searching for 20VC. That's 20VC. But before we leave you today, I'd like to introduce you to one of my favorite brands, Atteo. Atteo is the next generation of CRM.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Sequoia Capital's $9BN Global Equities Fund on The Future for NVIDIA, Google & Meta | How to Play AI in the Public Markets | China & Europe: Is the Future Bleak | The Opportunity for Crossover Funds with Jeff Wang, Managing Partner @ SCGE

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I'm so sorry for being naive. I specialize in venture where we're risk on all the time. Institutions allocate towards hedge funds in large part because of volatility minimization. Hedging is in the name. This long, short approach really concentrates risk profiles. That's right.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Sequoia Capital's $9BN Global Equities Fund on The Future for NVIDIA, Google & Meta | How to Play AI in the Public Markets | China & Europe: Is the Future Bleak | The Opportunity for Crossover Funds with Jeff Wang, Managing Partner @ SCGE

4181.983

Setting up Atteo takes less than a minute, and in seconds of syncing your email and calendar, you'll see all your relationships in one place, all enriched with valuable data. Atio also lets you build Zapier-style automations, gives you powerful reports, and works perfectly for any go-to-market motion from PLG to sales-led.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Sequoia Capital's $9BN Global Equities Fund on The Future for NVIDIA, Google & Meta | How to Play AI in the Public Markets | China & Europe: Is the Future Bleak | The Opportunity for Crossover Funds with Jeff Wang, Managing Partner @ SCGE

4198.533

Atio is designed for the next era of companies like yours, and companies like yours shouldn't have to deal with inflexible, one-size-fits-all CRMs. Join industry leaders like Eleven Labs, Replicate, Modal, and more to scale your startup beyond the next level. Head to atio.com slash 20VC and you'll get 15% off your first year. That's A-T-T-I-O dot com slash 20VC.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Sequoia Capital's $9BN Global Equities Fund on The Future for NVIDIA, Google & Meta | How to Play AI in the Public Markets | China & Europe: Is the Future Bleak | The Opportunity for Crossover Funds with Jeff Wang, Managing Partner @ SCGE

4222.048

And talking about incredible companies, I want to talk to you about a new venture fund making waves by taking a very different approach. It's a public venture fund anyone can invest in, not just institutions and accredited investors. The Fundrise Innovation Fund is democratizing venture capital, which could have big consequences for the industry.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Sequoia Capital's $9BN Global Equities Fund on The Future for NVIDIA, Google & Meta | How to Play AI in the Public Markets | China & Europe: Is the Future Bleak | The Opportunity for Crossover Funds with Jeff Wang, Managing Partner @ SCGE

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The fund is already off to a good start with $100 million into some of the largest, most in-demand AI and data infrastructure companies. Companies like OpenAI, Anthropic, and Databricks. Check out the Innovation Fund's impressive list of investments for yourself by visiting fundrise.com slash 20VC.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Sequoia Capital's $9BN Global Equities Fund on The Future for NVIDIA, Google & Meta | How to Play AI in the Public Markets | China & Europe: Is the Future Bleak | The Opportunity for Crossover Funds with Jeff Wang, Managing Partner @ SCGE

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Carefully consider the investment material before investing, including objectives, risks, charges, and expenses. This and other information can be found in the Innovation Fund's prospectus at fundrise.com slash innovation. This is a paid sponsorship. And finally, let me tell you about UiPath. What do Henry Ford and AI have in common? Neither could change the world without automation.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Sequoia Capital's $9BN Global Equities Fund on The Future for NVIDIA, Google & Meta | How to Play AI in the Public Markets | China & Europe: Is the Future Bleak | The Opportunity for Crossover Funds with Jeff Wang, Managing Partner @ SCGE

4282.401

In the future, there will be two types of businesses, those that have automated and those that wish they had. UiPath's new AI agents don't just follow rules. They think, make decisions.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Sequoia Capital's $9BN Global Equities Fund on The Future for NVIDIA, Google & Meta | How to Play AI in the Public Markets | China & Europe: Is the Future Bleak | The Opportunity for Crossover Funds with Jeff Wang, Managing Partner @ SCGE

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and work alongside the world's most powerful software robots, already trusted by over 10,000 businesses, if agentic automation sounds new, just think of UiPaths as your more growth, not more overhead platform, or your happier customers, happier employees platform. Whatever you want AI to do for your business, agentic automation with UiPath will make it happen.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Sequoia Capital's $9BN Global Equities Fund on The Future for NVIDIA, Google & Meta | How to Play AI in the Public Markets | China & Europe: Is the Future Bleak | The Opportunity for Crossover Funds with Jeff Wang, Managing Partner @ SCGE

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Try UiPath's new AI agents for free at UiPath.com. The future of automation is both agentic and robotic. Don't get left behind. As always, I so appreciate all your support and I cannot wait to bring you a fantastic episode on Friday with Owen McCabe, co-founder and CEO at Intercom.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Sequoia Capital's $9BN Global Equities Fund on The Future for NVIDIA, Google & Meta | How to Play AI in the Public Markets | China & Europe: Is the Future Bleak | The Opportunity for Crossover Funds with Jeff Wang, Managing Partner @ SCGE

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Have you ever had this combination of long and short be very wrong? And what did you learn from that?

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Sequoia Capital's $9BN Global Equities Fund on The Future for NVIDIA, Google & Meta | How to Play AI in the Public Markets | China & Europe: Is the Future Bleak | The Opportunity for Crossover Funds with Jeff Wang, Managing Partner @ SCGE

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and he also led investments in Airbnb, DoorDash, MongoDB, NewBank, and Snowflake, all when they were private. Jeff has never done a podcast before, and so this is the first time you will hear him speak, and wow, what a show we have in store for you. But Before we dive in, I'd like to introduce you to one of my favorite brands, Atteo. Atteo is the next generation of CRM.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Sequoia Capital's $9BN Global Equities Fund on The Future for NVIDIA, Google & Meta | How to Play AI in the Public Markets | China & Europe: Is the Future Bleak | The Opportunity for Crossover Funds with Jeff Wang, Managing Partner @ SCGE

564.235

You get it wrong and it goes the opposite of what you think. It could be up or it could be down, depending on your long or short. How do you know when to call the decision wrong versus when to need more data to see if you were wrong?

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Sequoia Capital's $9BN Global Equities Fund on The Future for NVIDIA, Google & Meta | How to Play AI in the Public Markets | China & Europe: Is the Future Bleak | The Opportunity for Crossover Funds with Jeff Wang, Managing Partner @ SCGE

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Setting up Atteo takes less than a minute, and in seconds of syncing your email and calendar, you'll see all your relationships in one place, all enriched with valuable data. Atio also lets you build Zapier-style automations, gives you powerful reports, and works perfectly for any go-to-market motion from PLG to sales-led.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Sequoia Capital's $9BN Global Equities Fund on The Future for NVIDIA, Google & Meta | How to Play AI in the Public Markets | China & Europe: Is the Future Bleak | The Opportunity for Crossover Funds with Jeff Wang, Managing Partner @ SCGE

797.232

In 2016, there was a leadership transition, which I think was a tough moment. Doug told me they did not know whether to keep global equities and made you earn it. I was writing down vociferously. Talk to me about that. What happened there, Jeff?

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Sequoia Capital's $9BN Global Equities Fund on The Future for NVIDIA, Google & Meta | How to Play AI in the Public Markets | China & Europe: Is the Future Bleak | The Opportunity for Crossover Funds with Jeff Wang, Managing Partner @ SCGE

92.755

Atio is designed for the next era of companies like yours, and companies like yours shouldn't have to deal with inflexible, one-size-fits-all CRMs. Join industry leaders like Eleven Labs, Replicate, Modal, and more to scale your startup beyond the next level. Head to attio.com slash 20VC and you'll get 15% off your first year. That's attio.com slash 20VC.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Sequoia Capital's $9BN Global Equities Fund on The Future for NVIDIA, Google & Meta | How to Play AI in the Public Markets | China & Europe: Is the Future Bleak | The Opportunity for Crossover Funds with Jeff Wang, Managing Partner @ SCGE

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I mean this respectfully. What's the leap of faith removing the non-tech activities and really staying cool to what Sequoia does best? My question more is why do we need a separate team to do it? This feels just like a continuation fund.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: OpenAI's Newest Board Member, Zico Colter on The Biggest Bottlenecks to the Performance of Foundation Models | The Biggest Questions and Concerns in AI Safety | How to Regulate an AI-Centric World

1020.285

One thing that I struggle when I look at model ecosystems is just the commoditization of models. I remember a year ago, 18 months ago, it was so expensive, so hard, there were so few players.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: OpenAI's Newest Board Member, Zico Colter on The Biggest Bottlenecks to the Performance of Foundation Models | The Biggest Questions and Concerns in AI Safety | How to Regulate an AI-Centric World

1030.355

Now that there's so many, the commoditization, the reduction in cost, how do you expect this model landscape to play out given the commoditization being really one of the fastest commoditizing technologies we seem to have seen in years?

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What do you think the model companies that do survive and win, what decisions do you think they'll make? When you said about the proliferation of operating systems and only a few survive, what decisions do you think the model companies that survive and thrive will make to survive and thrive?

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We've mentioned data, we've mentioned models. The third kind of pillar is something you've mentioned quite a few times, which is compute. And people are saying now, you know, we've got to the stage of diminishing returns, more compute isn't leading to an aligned level of performance in models. We've really reached this kind of diminishing returns bottleneck.

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To what extent is that true, or do we have a lot more room to run and throw in compute?

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To what extent do you think the corporations that we mentioned are chasing AGI, super intelligence, versus making amazing products and leveraging AI to make them and make more money?

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This is not the same with all new technology introductions to society. There is a gradual curve and there is employment displacement. There is societal upheaval. And that is a natural cycle with technology.

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to expedite their compliance journey for global security and privacy standards such as SOC 2, ISO 2701, HIPAA, GDPR, and more. Backed by top-tier investors and corporations such as Google, Kleiner Perkins, the company is among the Forbes list of top 100 startup employers for 2023 and Business Insider's list of the 34 most promising AI startups of 2023. Learn more today at secureframe.com.

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Do you think the current providers of models in particular give a particularly good on-ramp to consumers for how to leverage their technologies best?

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For large enterprises, a big concern is actually just the mobility or transferability of their data. They want everything on-prem. There's a big unwillingness to have anything trained on their data. Do you think we will see AI bring back a movement from large enterprises away from the cloud back to on-prem?

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What do you think are the other biggest misconceptions that people have towards AGI? There's so many. I mean, I didn't know people actually knew them. But what are others which really frustrate you?

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It really is a must. And finally, a company is nothing without its people, and so I want to talk about Cooley, the global law firm built around startups and venture capital. Since forming the first venture fund in Silicon Valley, Cooley has formed more venture capital funds than any other law firm in the world, with 60 plus years working with VCs.

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Can I ask you, you know, a big concern for me actually is misinformation. Yes. It's deep fakes. It's the creation of malicious cyber attacks. I don't think we spend enough time talking about this. When you think about reality underlying practical dangers, what most concerns you if those are some that concern me?

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Does that not lead to a reduction in the advancement of human knowledge, though, if we only trust the people around us who we've known for years when we see them in person, not even when they send us something?

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They help VCs form and manage funds, make investments, and handle the myriad issues that arise through a fund's lifetime. We use them at 20 VC and have loved working with their teams in the US, London and Asia over the last few years.

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But I think to me, this is why you see the increasing value of existing media brands, because people place validity and trust in the content that they produce. So you trust the New York Times tweet where it shows something, some random account which has a picture, don't know.

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When you think about AI safety, though, then, should the platforms themselves be the arbiters of justice of what's right and what's not right? You know, Twitter, Facebook, Reddit. And are they the ones that say, no, this is not allowed content?

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So to learn more about the number one most active law firm representing VC-backed companies going public, head over to cooley.com and also cooleygo.com, Cooley's award-winning free legal resource for entrepreneurs. You have now arrived at your destination. Zico, I am so excited for this dude. I've been looking forward to this one for a while. So thank you so much for joining me today.

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How do you respond as a government organization today where you are supposed to set regulation, supposed to set policy, and you are dealing with rag, flops, architect, transformer architecture? All of these technical words and architectural information that they have no idea what it means. My question is, are governments structurally set up to regulate AI effectively?

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Speaking of kind of the safekeeping models, a terrible interview that I am kind of jumping between so many different topics, but I do want to discuss the hierarchy of safety concerns that you have. Because I mentioned mine. How would you categorize yours?

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Now we're going to discuss some pretty meaty topics before we do dive in. Can you just give me the 60 second context on why you're so well versed to discuss them and your roles today?

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And the multiplier effects, the subsequent elements that become heightened because of this are like terrorist attacks, are fraud cases, are... So, right.

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really sort of harmful artifacts alex wang at scale said a brilliant line on the show he said that essentially we have a technology now that is more potentially dangerous and impactful than nuclear weapons if that is the case or even partially the case or even potentially the case is there any world in which it should be open

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Now, I want to start with some foundations and mechanics. When we look at kind of the basic techniques that underpin current AI systems, can you help me understand what are the basic techniques today behind current AI systems?

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Is there anything I have not asked on AI safety that I should have asked?

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What far-flung scenario do you think is most good to think about? Because most people just go robots, killing jobs, killing humans, ultimately post-killing our jobs. Yeah.

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The astonishing thing is, I don't know if you remember banking, but password tests were like, my voice is my password. I really hope yours isn't right now because 11 Labs is doing pretty great things with my voice.

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Are you optimistic about this future we're moving into? And do you want your children to speak more to LLMs and models than they do to humans?

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I could talk to you all day. I do want to move into a quick fire. I say a short statement. You give me your immediate thoughts. Does that sound okay? Okay. What did you believe about models that you later changed your mind on?

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What a breakthrough snap that is. What did you believe about data that you later changed your mind on?

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How does joining the OpenAI board look? Does Sam just call you up and go, hey, love the whiteboard, fancy coming on our board?

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What are the roles and responsibilities? Do they set them out like four board meetings a year and, you know, a biscuit and a coffee in between?

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Do you believe the statement that China's two years behind the US in terms of AI progression?

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Final one for you. What is the most common question you're asked that you don't think you should be asked?

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As you can tell from my meandering conversation, I've so enjoyed this. I'm so glad you didn't have too much time with the schedule, otherwise I would have been screwed. But thank you so much for being so brilliant.

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That was so much fun to have Zika on the show. And if you want to watch the full interview, you can find it on YouTube by searching for 20VC. That's 20VC. But before we leave you today, when a promising startup files for an IPO or a venture capital firm loses its marquee partner, being the first to know gives you an advantage and time to plan your strategic response.

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Chances are the information reported it first. The information is the trusted source for that important first look at actionable news across technology and finance, driving decisions with breaking stories, proprietary data tools and a spotlight on industry trends.

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With a subscription, you will join an elite community that includes leaders from the top VC firms, CEOs from Fortune 500 companies and esteemed banking and investment professionals. In addition to must-read journalism in your inbox every day, you'll engage with fellow leaders in their active discussions or in person at exclusive events.

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This is 20VC with me, Harry Stebbings, and today we are joined by OpenAI's newest board member and Carnegie Mellon's head of machine learning, Zico Coulter, from the bottlenecks in AI today to open versus closed systems to the biggest dangers of AI. This is an incredible discussion.

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Learn more and access a special offer for 20VC's listeners at www.theinformation.com slash deals slash 20VC. And speaking of incredible products that allows your team to do more, we need to talk about SecureFrame. SecureFrame provides incredible levels of trust to your customers through automation.

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SecureFrame empowers businesses to build trust with customers by simplifying information security and compliance through AI and automation. Thousands of fast-growing businesses including NASDAQ, AngelList, Doodle, and Coda trust SecureFrame to expedite their compliance journey for global security and privacy standards such as SOC 2, ISO 2701, HIPAA, GDPR, and more.

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backed by top-tier investors and corporations such as Google, Kleiner Perkins. The company is among the Forbes list of top 100 startup employers for 2023 and Business Insider's list of the 34 most promising AI startups of 2023. Learn more today at secureframe.com. It really is a must. And finally, a company is nothing without its people.

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3577.852

The global law firm built around startups and venture capital. Since forming the first venture fund in Silicon Valley, Cooley has formed more venture capital funds than any other law firm in the world, with 60 plus years working with VCs. They help VCs form and manage funds, make investments, and handle the myriad issues that arise through a fund's lifetime.

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We use them at 20VC and have loved working with their teams in the US, London and Asia over the last few years. So to learn more about the number one most active law firm representing VC-backed companies going public, head over to Cooley.com and also CooleyGo.com, Cooley's award-winning free legal resource for entrepreneurs.

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As always, I so appreciate all your support and stay tuned for an incredible episode coming this Wednesday.

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Can I just dive in and ask, you mentioned there the element of kind of the data input being so necessary. Everyone or a lot of people think that we've plundered the resources of data that we have already.

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We will need synthetic data to really supplement the data that we already have, or we need to create new forms, be it the transcription of YouTube videos, which is like 150 billion hours or whatever that is. To what extent do you think it's true that we've plundered the data resources that we have available and we are running into a data shortage crisis?

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But before we dive in, when a promising startup files for an IPO or a venture capital firm loses its marquee partner, being the first to know gives you an advantage and time to plan your strategic response. Chances are the information reported it first.

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644.002

If we just took it to a logical extreme, though, and said we had plundered the reserves of data, and you mentioned that even if we had, we were not seeing a plateauing in performance of models. Why is that? Because one would assume so.

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65.913

The information is the trusted source for that important first look at actionable news across technology and finance, driving decisions with breaking stories, proprietary data tools and a spotlight on industry trends. With a subscription, you will join an elite community that includes leaders from the top VC firms, CEOs from Fortune 500 companies and esteemed banking and investment professionals.

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749.269

When we think about optimizing the data that we have in terms of kind of value extraction, what could be done further to get further value from the data that we have?

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So we're in the classroom together. We've got a big cross on that, like data, not the bottleneck. Good. Models, the joys of this show is I can kind of just regurgitate statements that others might have said and test them. Everyone talks to me about kind of moving to this world of many smaller models, which are maybe more efficient. To what extent do we agree with that? Is that right?

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In addition to must-read journalism in your inbox every day, you'll engage with fellow leaders in their active discussions or in person at exclusive events. Learn more and access a special offer for 20VC's listeners at www.theinformation.com slash deals slash 20VC. And speaking of incredible products that allows your team to do more, we need to talk about SecureFrame.

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901.94

I had Aidan on from Cohere the other day, and he said that it is harder and harder to see visible gains in models, given now the incredible performance and knowledge of them. And so before, you used to be able to kind of take anyone off the street and they'd be smarter than the models. But now, actually, the models have got so smart, it's kind of harder and harder to distinguish.

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And talking about incredible companies, I want to talk to you about a new venture fund making waves by taking a very different approach. It's a public venture fund anyone can invest in. not just institutions and accredited investors. The Fundrise Innovation Fund is democratizing venture capital, which could have big consequences for the industry.

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1125.427

One thing that's really striking to me is the speed of commoditization among the models. Is this not the fastest technology to commoditize? I mean, every week I see like, you know, Mistral kills it. Next week, Gemini kills it. Next week, OpenAI has crushed it. And I'm sitting here going... Fuck, I'm getting dizzy. Like, which one should I use? Oh my God.

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And then Claude comes and it's like five things you can do with Claude that you can't do with anything else. And I'm like, Christ, I've got no idea what's going on. Are they the fastest technology to commoditize?

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The fund is already off to a good start with $100 million into some of the largest, most in-demand AI and data infrastructure companies. Companies like OpenAI, Anthropic, and Databricks. Check out the Innovation Fund's impressive list of investments for yourself by visiting fundrise.com slash 20VC.

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1312.12

Can you continue to have step function changes with every model in terms of GPT-3 to GPT-4? Obviously, there's GPT-5 coming next. Don't worry, that's not a spoiler. It would just be a natural guess. unless they're going for a radical rebrand. I'm not that smart, Brad. I'm a VC, but, you know, GPT-4 left me with one thing as an option.

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I was born in 96. But I remember reading about it. There we go. But we can't continuously have step changes, can we? Are we at a stage where you start to see slightly diminishing returns?

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20VC: Bret Taylor: The AI Bubble and What Happens Now | How the Cost of Chips and Models Will Change in AI | Will Companies Build Their Own Software | Why Pre-Training is for Morons | Leaderships Lessons from Mark Zuckerberg

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Carefully consider the investment material before investing, including objectives, risks, charges and expenses. This and other information can be found in the Innovation Fund's prospectus at fundrise.com slash innovation. This is a paid sponsorship. And finally, let me tell you about UiPath. What do Henry Ford and AI have in common? Neither could change the world without automation.

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20VC: Bret Taylor: The AI Bubble and What Happens Now | How the Cost of Chips and Models Will Change in AI | Will Companies Build Their Own Software | Why Pre-Training is for Morons | Leaderships Lessons from Mark Zuckerberg

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In terms of kind of the pursuit of AGI and then also building useful applications for consumers, a company has to have a priority. I think we both agree on that. How does one hold dual priorities of chasing AGI and building a great consumer or enterprise product at the same time?

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20VC: Bret Taylor: The AI Bubble and What Happens Now | How the Cost of Chips and Models Will Change in AI | Will Companies Build Their Own Software | Why Pre-Training is for Morons | Leaderships Lessons from Mark Zuckerberg

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I get you, but our end of complexity is like, no, we're not doing that. We're building a Google killer. That's what we want to replace. And then OpenAI has an enterprise product with an enterprise division, and then AGI and safety teams. It's kind of cloudy. Do you see what I mean?

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In the future, there will be two types of businesses, those that have automated and those that wish they had. UiPath's new AI agents don't just follow rules. They think, make decisions.

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Do you think knowledge is proprietary to companies given the incestuous nature of just some of the movements we've seen between people and teams?

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20VC: Bret Taylor: The AI Bubble and What Happens Now | How the Cost of Chips and Models Will Change in AI | Will Companies Build Their Own Software | Why Pre-Training is for Morons | Leaderships Lessons from Mark Zuckerberg

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We mentioned the commoditizations of foundation models as a technology. We've also seen price dumping and a race to the bottom in terms of price as well in a lot of cases. How do you think about AI business models that are sustainable given incredible training and inference costs?

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20VC: Bret Taylor: The AI Bubble and What Happens Now | How the Cost of Chips and Models Will Change in AI | Will Companies Build Their Own Software | Why Pre-Training is for Morons | Leaderships Lessons from Mark Zuckerberg

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and work alongside the world's most powerful software robots, already trusted by over 10,000 businesses, if agentic automation sounds new, just think of UiPaths as your more growth, not more overhead platform, or your happier customers, happier employees platform. Whatever you want AI to do for your business, agentic automation with UiPath will make it happen.

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20VC: Bret Taylor: The AI Bubble and What Happens Now | How the Cost of Chips and Models Will Change in AI | Will Companies Build Their Own Software | Why Pre-Training is for Morons | Leaderships Lessons from Mark Zuckerberg

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If we think about that reducing cost over time and Moore's Law proving out, we're also just seeing Meta, we're seeing Amazon, we're seeing Google. I say they are going to invest ungodly amounts in the next three to five years. Does that go against Moore's Law and the reducing cost for them? And how do you think about those two seemingly kind of paradoxical things?

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20VC: Bret Taylor: The AI Bubble and What Happens Now | How the Cost of Chips and Models Will Change in AI | Will Companies Build Their Own Software | Why Pre-Training is for Morons | Leaderships Lessons from Mark Zuckerberg

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Try UiPath's new AI agents for free at UiPath.com. The future of automation is both agentic and robotic. Don't get left behind. You have now arrived at your... Brett, I am so excited for this, my friend. I've been a fan from afar for a long time. You've had such an incredible career. So thank you so much for joining me.

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When you look at Google and Amazon, their cash cow to fund this is cloud. Zuck and Meta do not have a cloud business being their cash cow to fund this. What does that enable or mean that Zuck can do differently with the cash cow not being cloud? Is there anything he can do differently? Is there any freedoms that he has?

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Is there ever a stop to the cash tap that's been turned on? Someone said the other day, it's kind of like the Manhattan Project for them, which is just like you're in and you can't stop. And the sunk cost is there and you're like another 20 billion. Is there any turning off of that cash tap requirement?

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20VC: Bret Taylor: The AI Bubble and What Happens Now | How the Cost of Chips and Models Will Change in AI | Will Companies Build Their Own Software | Why Pre-Training is for Morons | Leaderships Lessons from Mark Zuckerberg

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I know this one's a little bit off back because it's not even on the schedule. So you're like you're breaking the rules from round one. But when I go through the different achievements you have, it really is incredible. When you were young, did you know that you were going to be successful? Did you have that innate feeling?

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20VC: Bret Taylor: The AI Bubble and What Happens Now | How the Cost of Chips and Models Will Change in AI | Will Companies Build Their Own Software | Why Pre-Training is for Morons | Leaderships Lessons from Mark Zuckerberg

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Everyone on the show has said that we will see consolidation in the market. We've had the founders of Adeptum. We've had Character AI. We've had Cohere. We've had Reid, obviously, from Inflection. Do you agree that if you are not one of those core, then we are in a consolidation market?

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20VC: Bret Taylor: The AI Bubble and What Happens Now | How the Cost of Chips and Models Will Change in AI | Will Companies Build Their Own Software | Why Pre-Training is for Morons | Leaderships Lessons from Mark Zuckerberg

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You mentioned agents there. I do want to move into agents and the future of agents. First off, with Sierra, you can literally do anything, Brett, if we're honest. Why did you decide to do Sierra?

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20VC: Bret Taylor: The AI Bubble and What Happens Now | How the Cost of Chips and Models Will Change in AI | Will Companies Build Their Own Software | Why Pre-Training is for Morons | Leaderships Lessons from Mark Zuckerberg

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why is chat the right form factor and is it multimodal is it like i can take a picture of the domino's pizza and put it in my agent and it's like oh that's the mighty meaty 17 inch you can tell i'm not a vegan to all vegans i'm sorry i just lost a big swathe of our audience uh And image-based is like me on a run being like, ah, you know, I want this.

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20VC: Bret Taylor: The AI Bubble and What Happens Now | How the Cost of Chips and Models Will Change in AI | Will Companies Build Their Own Software | Why Pre-Training is for Morons | Leaderships Lessons from Mark Zuckerberg

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How do we think about multimodalities and like why chat isn't, has, and may be the dominant interface?

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Bret Taylor: The AI Bubble and What Happens Now | How the Cost of Chips and Models Will Change in AI | Will Companies Build Their Own Software | Why Pre-Training is for Morons | Leaderships Lessons from Mark Zuckerberg

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Do you think we see the removal of the phone, though, as the primary interface? You've seen Zuck with the Ray-Ban glasses. Why do you need the phone at all if I can just talk to myself, which would look kind of weird but normal because I do often. I could ask myself, hey, get an Uber. I'm here. Do we see the removal of the phone?

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20VC: Bret Taylor: The AI Bubble and What Happens Now | How the Cost of Chips and Models Will Change in AI | Will Companies Build Their Own Software | Why Pre-Training is for Morons | Leaderships Lessons from Mark Zuckerberg

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This is 20VC with me, Harry Stebbings, and I'm so excited to welcome one of the true OGs of Silicon Valley to the show today. This is the most impressive CV in Silicon Valley. He co-created Google Maps. He was the CTO of Facebook. He founded Quip. and sold it to Salesforce for $800 million, where he was then co-CEO with Marc Benioff of Salesforce.

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20VC: Bret Taylor: The AI Bubble and What Happens Now | How the Cost of Chips and Models Will Change in AI | Will Companies Build Their Own Software | Why Pre-Training is for Morons | Leaderships Lessons from Mark Zuckerberg

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Are WhatsApp not best placed in terms of installing an app store for every big brand in the world to implement their own channel? And then you have existing distribution to a billion, however many users it is, integrated already into functionality and apps that they use already.

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20VC: Bret Taylor: The AI Bubble and What Happens Now | How the Cost of Chips and Models Will Change in AI | Will Companies Build Their Own Software | Why Pre-Training is for Morons | Leaderships Lessons from Mark Zuckerberg

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Brad, what was the hardest thing with Sierra that you did not anticipate being so hard?

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20VC: Bret Taylor: The AI Bubble and What Happens Now | How the Cost of Chips and Models Will Change in AI | Will Companies Build Their Own Software | Why Pre-Training is for Morons | Leaderships Lessons from Mark Zuckerberg

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What's the difference between rules versus goals and guardrails? Are guardrails not rules?

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20VC: Bret Taylor: The AI Bubble and What Happens Now | How the Cost of Chips and Models Will Change in AI | Will Companies Build Their Own Software | Why Pre-Training is for Morons | Leaderships Lessons from Mark Zuckerberg

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You know, there was an article- Wouldn't it be quite funny if you're like, I'd like to cancel. Well, you're a dick.

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20VC: Bret Taylor: The AI Bubble and What Happens Now | How the Cost of Chips and Models Will Change in AI | Will Companies Build Their Own Software | Why Pre-Training is for Morons | Leaderships Lessons from Mark Zuckerberg

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Does that mean, sorry, then you only see kind of agentic implementation for bluntly low risk activities? Hey, I want money back on my dominoes. Listen, if you fuck it up, kind of who cares? But if it's like, you know, my operating system for finances, whatever that may be, or your sales force, I really don't want to fuck up pipeline for a billion dollar business.

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20VC: Bret Taylor: The AI Bubble and What Happens Now | How the Cost of Chips and Models Will Change in AI | Will Companies Build Their Own Software | Why Pre-Training is for Morons | Leaderships Lessons from Mark Zuckerberg

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On the flip side, how much agency do you give a human who's been trained for a week and sits in your Detroit customer service department and could get high and then abuse a customer? Do you know, I always think we forget this when we talk about AI hallucinations, we're like, yeah, and humans hallucinate too.

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20VC: Bret Taylor: The AI Bubble and What Happens Now | How the Cost of Chips and Models Will Change in AI | Will Companies Build Their Own Software | Why Pre-Training is for Morons | Leaderships Lessons from Mark Zuckerberg

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I do have to start, though, with some semblance of structure. You know, we've seen some mega rounds go down in the last few months from some of the biggest people in AI. Ilya recently raised a billion dollar seed round. I just want to start on the foundations of where we are.

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20VC: Bret Taylor: The AI Bubble and What Happens Now | How the Cost of Chips and Models Will Change in AI | Will Companies Build Their Own Software | Why Pre-Training is for Morons | Leaderships Lessons from Mark Zuckerberg

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Can I ask a slightly off-tangent one? But it makes me think of moderation there when you said about how do we really think about determining whether someone went off script or not and what we do with it. My biggest concern, honestly, is, like it or not, I look at most of the stuff on my Twitter timeline and I'm like, is that real or fake? And I send it to my family and they're like, fake or real?

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20VC: Bret Taylor: The AI Bubble and What Happens Now | How the Cost of Chips and Models Will Change in AI | Will Companies Build Their Own Software | Why Pre-Training is for Morons | Leaderships Lessons from Mark Zuckerberg

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It's unbelievable, the switch in terms of our questioning the verification of content. And someone said on the show very recently, Arvind Narayanan, who's at Princeton University. I now get to interview professors, very, very intelligent. But my mother's like, really? But he said, you know, the thing is, Harry, it's not that we will believe stuff that you see that's not true.

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20VC: Bret Taylor: The AI Bubble and What Happens Now | How the Cost of Chips and Models Will Change in AI | Will Companies Build Their Own Software | Why Pre-Training is for Morons | Leaderships Lessons from Mark Zuckerberg

3488.978

It's that you won't believe anything at all. Do you agree with him? And what are your biggest worries about this next wave?

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Bret Taylor: The AI Bubble and What Happens Now | How the Cost of Chips and Models Will Change in AI | Will Companies Build Their Own Software | Why Pre-Training is for Morons | Leaderships Lessons from Mark Zuckerberg

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My question to you is, are we in peak AI? And is this the ultimate sign of a bubble?

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Bret Taylor: The AI Bubble and What Happens Now | How the Cost of Chips and Models Will Change in AI | Will Companies Build Their Own Software | Why Pre-Training is for Morons | Leaderships Lessons from Mark Zuckerberg

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Can I ask you a weird one before we move into a quick fire? You're Brett Taylor. When you go out to fundraise, it must be a little bit different now, Brett. How does that work? Do you know what I mean? It's like, so just help me understand. You decide you're going to do Sierra and you're like, ah, I mean, I guess it's kind of a question of like, why fundraise?

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20VC: Bret Taylor: The AI Bubble and What Happens Now | How the Cost of Chips and Models Will Change in AI | Will Companies Build Their Own Software | Why Pre-Training is for Morons | Leaderships Lessons from Mark Zuckerberg

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But then there's also a question of like, how did you approach that? Now you could raise from anyone.

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20VC: Bret Taylor: The AI Bubble and What Happens Now | How the Cost of Chips and Models Will Change in AI | Will Companies Build Their Own Software | Why Pre-Training is for Morons | Leaderships Lessons from Mark Zuckerberg

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I have a man crush on Peter's brain, so it's totally fine. I remember when I had him on the show first, I was like, wow, he's the most articulate orator I think I've ever had on this show. Listen, I want to do a quick fire round, Brett. So I say a short statement, you give me your immediate thoughts. Does that sound okay?

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20VC: Bret Taylor: The AI Bubble and What Happens Now | How the Cost of Chips and Models Will Change in AI | Will Companies Build Their Own Software | Why Pre-Training is for Morons | Leaderships Lessons from Mark Zuckerberg

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Can I ask your advice? You've sat on some of the best boards. I sit on boards now. I am a young board member. I want to be the best board member that I can be. Is there any advice that you'd give me having seen many different types of boards and types of entrepreneurs?

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20VC: Bret Taylor: The AI Bubble and What Happens Now | How the Cost of Chips and Models Will Change in AI | Will Companies Build Their Own Software | Why Pre-Training is for Morons | Leaderships Lessons from Mark Zuckerberg

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I first heard about venture when I was 13 because I was sitting in a cinema in London and I saw the scene with Peter Thiel and Clarion where he invests in the Young's Ark. And I was like, oh my God, I want to be a venture investor.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

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I know. I think the exact same. And also, I think everyone took entrepreneurship away from it. And I was like VC. Brad, I literally don't think anyone has the view of leaders that you've had working alongside Zuck, Benioff, board of Shopify with Toby, board of OpenAI with Sam. This is the greatest leaders of a generation. What do they have that is non-obvious that makes them great leaders?

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20VC: Bret Taylor: The AI Bubble and What Happens Now | How the Cost of Chips and Models Will Change in AI | Will Companies Build Their Own Software | Why Pre-Training is for Morons | Leaderships Lessons from Mark Zuckerberg

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Dude, rock and roll. You're a star. Thank you so much. Thank you. Thank you. I am a student of Silicon Valley, and so having the chance to do that show with Brett was just such a treat for me. If you want to watch the full episode, of course you can, on YouTube by searching for 20VC, that's 2-0-V-C. But before we leave you today, I'd like to introduce you to one of my favorite brands, Atio.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Bret Taylor: The AI Bubble and What Happens Now | How the Cost of Chips and Models Will Change in AI | Will Companies Build Their Own Software | Why Pre-Training is for Morons | Leaderships Lessons from Mark Zuckerberg

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Atio is the next generation of CRM. Setting up Atio takes less than a minute, and in seconds of syncing your email and calendar, you'll see all your relationships in one place, all enriched with valuable data. Atio also lets you build Zapier-style automations, gives you powerful reports, and works perfectly for any go-to-market motion from PLG to sales-led.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Bret Taylor: The AI Bubble and What Happens Now | How the Cost of Chips and Models Will Change in AI | Will Companies Build Their Own Software | Why Pre-Training is for Morons | Leaderships Lessons from Mark Zuckerberg

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Atio is designed for the next era of companies like yours, and companies like yours shouldn't have to deal with inflexible, one-size-fits-all CRMs. Join industry leaders like Eleven Labs, Replicate, Modal, and more to scale your startup beyond the next level. Head to atio.com.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Bret Taylor: The AI Bubble and What Happens Now | How the Cost of Chips and Models Will Change in AI | Will Companies Build Their Own Software | Why Pre-Training is for Morons | Leaderships Lessons from Mark Zuckerberg

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And talking about incredible companies, I want to talk to you about a new venture fund making waves by taking a very different approach. It's a public venture fund anyone can invest in. Not just institutions and accredited investors. The Fundrise Innovation Fund is democratizing venture capital, which could have big consequences for the industry.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Bret Taylor: The AI Bubble and What Happens Now | How the Cost of Chips and Models Will Change in AI | Will Companies Build Their Own Software | Why Pre-Training is for Morons | Leaderships Lessons from Mark Zuckerberg

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The fund is already off to a good start with $100 million into some of the largest, most in-demand AI and data infrastructure companies. Companies like OpenAI, Anthropic and Databricks. Check out the Innovation Fund's impressive list of investments for yourself by visiting fundrise.com slash 20VC.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Bret Taylor: The AI Bubble and What Happens Now | How the Cost of Chips and Models Will Change in AI | Will Companies Build Their Own Software | Why Pre-Training is for Morons | Leaderships Lessons from Mark Zuckerberg

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Carefully consider the investment material before investing, including objectives, risks, charges and expenses. This and other information can be found in the Innovation Fund's prospectus at fundrise.com slash innovation. This is a paid sponsorship. And finally, let me tell you about UiPath. What do Henry Ford and AI have in common? Neither could change the world without automation.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Bret Taylor: The AI Bubble and What Happens Now | How the Cost of Chips and Models Will Change in AI | Will Companies Build Their Own Software | Why Pre-Training is for Morons | Leaderships Lessons from Mark Zuckerberg

4192.383

In the future, there will be two types of businesses, those that have automated and those that wish they had. UiPath's new AI agents don't just follow rules. They think, make decisions.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Bret Taylor: The AI Bubble and What Happens Now | How the Cost of Chips and Models Will Change in AI | Will Companies Build Their Own Software | Why Pre-Training is for Morons | Leaderships Lessons from Mark Zuckerberg

4202.546

and work alongside the world's most powerful software robots, already trusted by over 10,000 businesses, if agentic automation sounds new, just think of UiPaths as your more growth, not more overhead platform, or your happier customers, happier employees platform. Whatever you want AI to do for your business, agentic automation with UiPath will make it happen.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Bret Taylor: The AI Bubble and What Happens Now | How the Cost of Chips and Models Will Change in AI | Will Companies Build Their Own Software | Why Pre-Training is for Morons | Leaderships Lessons from Mark Zuckerberg

4223.577

Try UiPath's new AI agents for free at UiPath.com. The future of automation is both agentic and robotic. Don't get left behind. As always, I so appreciate all your support and stay tuned for an incredible episode coming on Friday.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Bret Taylor: The AI Bubble and What Happens Now | How the Cost of Chips and Models Will Change in AI | Will Companies Build Their Own Software | Why Pre-Training is for Morons | Leaderships Lessons from Mark Zuckerberg

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And now he's the CEO and co-founder of Sierra, a conversational AI platform for businesses backed by Peter Fenton at Benchmark. Enough said, the man is a hero. The best CV in Silicon Valley history right there. But before we dive in, I'd like to introduce you to one of my favorite brands, Atteo. Atteo is the next generation of CRM.

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20VC: Bret Taylor: The AI Bubble and What Happens Now | How the Cost of Chips and Models Will Change in AI | Will Companies Build Their Own Software | Why Pre-Training is for Morons | Leaderships Lessons from Mark Zuckerberg

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Is it not different in the way that the risk was priced in? And what I mean by that is Salesforce's first rounds were not done at billion-dollar valuations. Amazon's was not either. The companies of 1998 to 2002 were priced not insanely when you have x.ai raising $18 billion. I mean, these are potential trillion-dollar companies where with dilution, you'll get less than 100x.

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20VC: Bret Taylor: The AI Bubble and What Happens Now | How the Cost of Chips and Models Will Change in AI | Will Companies Build Their Own Software | Why Pre-Training is for Morons | Leaderships Lessons from Mark Zuckerberg

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Before we discuss, I love that also, a venture investor thinks multiples and entrepreneurs like generational defining company impact. I feel like a schoolboy who's been told off, Brad. I feel terrible. I feel really guilty for that. But anyway, you mentioned kind of AGI and kind of the value that could come from that.

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20VC: Bret Taylor: The AI Bubble and What Happens Now | How the Cost of Chips and Models Will Change in AI | Will Companies Build Their Own Software | Why Pre-Training is for Morons | Leaderships Lessons from Mark Zuckerberg

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There is kind of a step before that, though, which is the models themselves are actually so good and so advanced that they bundle all verticalized or unbundled software products really and subsume them, so to speak. To what extent do you think that is a threat, that everything will really just be subsumed by very sophisticated models?

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20VC: Bret Taylor: The AI Bubble and What Happens Now | How the Cost of Chips and Models Will Change in AI | Will Companies Build Their Own Software | Why Pre-Training is for Morons | Leaderships Lessons from Mark Zuckerberg

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Setting up Atteo takes less than a minute, and in seconds of syncing your email and calendar, you'll see all your relationships in one place, all enriched with valuable data. Atio also lets you build Zapier-style automations, gives you powerful reports, and works perfectly for any go-to-market motion from PLG to sales-led.

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20VC: Bret Taylor: The AI Bubble and What Happens Now | How the Cost of Chips and Models Will Change in AI | Will Companies Build Their Own Software | Why Pre-Training is for Morons | Leaderships Lessons from Mark Zuckerberg

87.497

Atio is designed for the next era of companies like yours, and companies like yours shouldn't have to deal with inflexible, one-size-fits-all CRMs. Join industry leaders like Eleven Labs, Replicate, Modal, and more to scale your startup beyond the next level. Head to atio.com.

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20VC: Bret Taylor: The AI Bubble and What Happens Now | How the Cost of Chips and Models Will Change in AI | Will Companies Build Their Own Software | Why Pre-Training is for Morons | Leaderships Lessons from Mark Zuckerberg

915.635

There's a couple of things I just have to unpack there. You said about companies wanting to buy solutions and the ease that they require when implementing these solutions. I actually said before on Twitter that I think AI services companies over the next three to five years will actually be the biggest winners in AI. And you've seen a lot of these consulting firms post billions in profit.

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There was one that actually had more revenue than OpenAI. Do you agree that AI services companies will be a dominant strain of this community and that they will be needed though for the implementation of this next generation of application layer?

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20VC: How SHEIN Got So Big So Fast: Behind the Scenes at One of the Fastest Growing Companies in History with Donald Tang, Executive Chairman @ SHEIN

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How quickly do you know when something's a hit? Is it immediate? So you have these 100 or 200 and you do sell them. Is it very obvious when you have big winners on your hands?

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: How SHEIN Got So Big So Fast: Behind the Scenes at One of the Fastest Growing Companies in History with Donald Tang, Executive Chairman @ SHEIN

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I'm a venture capitalist for my sins. The reason I ask that is because I'm thinking about margin compression. And what I mean by that is, are you then able to say to the suppliers, we are your sole provider. We would like it at this price. And you have much more ability to squeeze on price because of that relationship.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: How SHEIN Got So Big So Fast: Behind the Scenes at One of the Fastest Growing Companies in History with Donald Tang, Executive Chairman @ SHEIN

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How else have you innovated on the supply chain? Because that is a very different approach, but that is also just one stage of a very kind of multifaceted funnel. How else have you innovated on the supply chain from factory to consumer?

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20VC: How SHEIN Got So Big So Fast: Behind the Scenes at One of the Fastest Growing Companies in History with Donald Tang, Executive Chairman @ SHEIN

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What's the biggest thing that's broken for the model? A lesson that you've had from something that didn't work. Oh, we actually didn't anticipate this. Oh, this thing didn't go as planned.

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20VC: How SHEIN Got So Big So Fast: Behind the Scenes at One of the Fastest Growing Companies in History with Donald Tang, Executive Chairman @ SHEIN

113.331

To join them, visit brex.com slash startups. And finally, let's talk about Squarespace. Squarespace is the all-in-one website platform for entrepreneurs to stand out and succeed online.

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20VC: How SHEIN Got So Big So Fast: Behind the Scenes at One of the Fastest Growing Companies in History with Donald Tang, Executive Chairman @ SHEIN

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Do you mind if the summary is made that people choose you because of price? You are very, very affordable for a wide range of people, which is fantastic. Is that okay with you when you hear that? The primary reason that people choose you and your apparel is because of price.

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20VC: How SHEIN Got So Big So Fast: Behind the Scenes at One of the Fastest Growing Companies in History with Donald Tang, Executive Chairman @ SHEIN

124.556

Whether you're just starting out or managing a growing brand, Squarespace makes it easy to create a beautiful website, engage with your audience, and sell anything from products to content, all in one place, all on your terms. What's blown me away is the Squarespace Blueprint AI and SEO tools.

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20VC: How SHEIN Got So Big So Fast: Behind the Scenes at One of the Fastest Growing Companies in History with Donald Tang, Executive Chairman @ SHEIN

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I have to ask, I spoke to my mother before this show and she said, oh, thank Donald. I bought three dresses from them and they're wonderful. And I said, that's great. And she said, yeah, they were nine pounds. I said, they were nine pounds each. And my question to you is, How do you make enough money on such low AOVs, average order values?

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20VC: How SHEIN Got So Big So Fast: Behind the Scenes at One of the Fastest Growing Companies in History with Donald Tang, Executive Chairman @ SHEIN

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When you look at the supply chain from being made to delivery, just what is the margin in it for you? We're profitable.

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20VC: How SHEIN Got So Big So Fast: Behind the Scenes at One of the Fastest Growing Companies in History with Donald Tang, Executive Chairman @ SHEIN

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Wow. And the way that you do that is because of your small sample sizes on the first sale that you do before you wrap it up.

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20VC: How SHEIN Got So Big So Fast: Behind the Scenes at One of the Fastest Growing Companies in History with Donald Tang, Executive Chairman @ SHEIN

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I love that in terms of I want to buy from a dream factory. I do. I do too, but I think it's a great statement. You mentioned very kindly, buckling me in this age of young people. Social media has been a big driver on the customer acquisition side. You have Sheen Halls and you've dominated social in a lot of ways.

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20VC: How SHEIN Got So Big So Fast: Behind the Scenes at One of the Fastest Growing Companies in History with Donald Tang, Executive Chairman @ SHEIN

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When you look at social media and how you've approached it, how do you think about what you've done that's worked well and how that's contributed to it?

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20VC: How SHEIN Got So Big So Fast: Behind the Scenes at One of the Fastest Growing Companies in History with Donald Tang, Executive Chairman @ SHEIN

140.285

It's like crafting your site with a guided system, ensuring it not only reflects your unique style, but also ranks well on search engines. Plus, their flexible payment options cater to every customer's needs, making transactions smooth and hassle-free. And the Squarespace AI? It's a content wizard, helping you whip up text that truly resonates with your brand voice.

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20VC: How SHEIN Got So Big So Fast: Behind the Scenes at One of the Fastest Growing Companies in History with Donald Tang, Executive Chairman @ SHEIN

1404.964

Some of the social posts which go very viral are hauls, which I learned in this research, which is where they buy lots and then try it on very quickly. And a lot of people say that you're in the fast fashion business. Is that fair or are you not fast fashion?

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20VC: How SHEIN Got So Big So Fast: Behind the Scenes at One of the Fastest Growing Companies in History with Donald Tang, Executive Chairman @ SHEIN

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Sorry, I don't mean to interrupt you, but it's such an individual expression of someone that they go to a bachelor party and they want to dress like, I don't know, whatever they want to dress like. But it's almost one and done. And actually we are so individually expressive that we actually change so quickly that actually what if the consumer wants fast fashion?

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20VC: How SHEIN Got So Big So Fast: Behind the Scenes at One of the Fastest Growing Companies in History with Donald Tang, Executive Chairman @ SHEIN

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How do you think about the paradox of choice? I think about this a lot, which is like sometimes if you give humans too much choice, they don't know where to go. The great Matthew McConaughey talk where he says too many choices will make an enemy of us all.

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20VC: How SHEIN Got So Big So Fast: Behind the Scenes at One of the Fastest Growing Companies in History with Donald Tang, Executive Chairman @ SHEIN

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You said there about kind of being global to everyone in every corner of the earth. Where is your biggest market today? United States. How do we think about global expansion? And when you review the last three years, how do you think you've done?

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20VC: How SHEIN Got So Big So Fast: Behind the Scenes at One of the Fastest Growing Companies in History with Donald Tang, Executive Chairman @ SHEIN

159.682

So if you're ready to get started, head to squarespace.com for a free trial. And when you're ready to launch, go to squarespace.com slash do the work to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain. And finally, before we dive into the show, I want to recommend a book, The Road to Reinvention, a New York Times bestseller on mastering change. No time to read?

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20VC: How SHEIN Got So Big So Fast: Behind the Scenes at One of the Fastest Growing Companies in History with Donald Tang, Executive Chairman @ SHEIN

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Because I agree with you and I think that's absolutely true. But then do you have CEOs of the independent companies in each nation that you expand into? How do you structure the organization for that?

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20VC: How SHEIN Got So Big So Fast: Behind the Scenes at One of the Fastest Growing Companies in History with Donald Tang, Executive Chairman @ SHEIN

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When you review the American expansion, it's been an amazing success. When you review the American expansion, what do you think you did really well? And what do you think, with the benefit of hindsight, you'd do differently if you had the time again?

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20VC: How SHEIN Got So Big So Fast: Behind the Scenes at One of the Fastest Growing Companies in History with Donald Tang, Executive Chairman @ SHEIN

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How do you improve your response time, improve your speed with the increasing size of your company and with your transitioning into Goliath? Businesses always become slower as they get bigger.

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20VC: How SHEIN Got So Big So Fast: Behind the Scenes at One of the Fastest Growing Companies in History with Donald Tang, Executive Chairman @ SHEIN

180.638

Listen to 20VC now, then download the Blinkist app to fit key reads into your schedule. With Blinkist, you can grasp the core ideas of over 7,500 non-fiction books and podcasts in just 15 minutes, covering psychology, marketing, business, and more. It's no surprise 82% of Blinkist users see themselves as self-optimizers, and 65% say it's essential for business and career growth.

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20VC: How SHEIN Got So Big So Fast: Behind the Scenes at One of the Fastest Growing Companies in History with Donald Tang, Executive Chairman @ SHEIN

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My question to you is when you look at market expansion, paid is quite a significant part of it. And you are everywhere in London for sure. And in a lot of international markets. How big a role has paid been in dominating local markets?

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20VC: How SHEIN Got So Big So Fast: Behind the Scenes at One of the Fastest Growing Companies in History with Donald Tang, Executive Chairman @ SHEIN

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I mean, there's many different things I want to move into. When you think about like where you're not, but where you want to be, you know, we spoke about geographies and expansion there. What are the biggest growth factors for you today that you have not capitalized on yet that you're excited to?

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20VC: How SHEIN Got So Big So Fast: Behind the Scenes at One of the Fastest Growing Companies in History with Donald Tang, Executive Chairman @ SHEIN

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Speaking of local and compliance, how do we think about tariffs and the ability to go beneath certain price points and what that means for where you're able to pay? I think there was a recent thing which was because of the price points of your products, they're under a certain point, which means you don't have to pay tariffs. How much of your success is on going underneath tariffs to avoid that?

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20VC: How SHEIN Got So Big So Fast: Behind the Scenes at One of the Fastest Growing Companies in History with Donald Tang, Executive Chairman @ SHEIN

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Speaking of business, Blinkist is a trusted L&D partner for industry leaders like Amazon, Hyundai and KPMG UK, empowering over 32 million users since 2012. As a 20VC listener, you can enjoy an exclusive 25% discount on Blinkist. That's B-L-I-N-K-I-S-T. Just visit Blinkist.com slash 20VC to claim your discount and transform the way you learn. You have now arrived at your destination.

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20VC: How SHEIN Got So Big So Fast: Behind the Scenes at One of the Fastest Growing Companies in History with Donald Tang, Executive Chairman @ SHEIN

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I find young people very confusing today. And now I sound old. But you absolutely have this individualism, this wanting to express themselves in a way that they never have before quite. And then you also have climate change being very important to them. And it seems like they kind of go in contradiction.

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20VC: How SHEIN Got So Big So Fast: Behind the Scenes at One of the Fastest Growing Companies in History with Donald Tang, Executive Chairman @ SHEIN

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And I have this problem with young people because they all march and they all don't quite understand a lot of the consequences of what they do and buy. How do you answer the question that people always ask, which is that you are bad for the climate?

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20VC: How SHEIN Got So Big So Fast: Behind the Scenes at One of the Fastest Growing Companies in History with Donald Tang, Executive Chairman @ SHEIN

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And then your response to, and people just use it once and throw it away, is that's actually factually incorrect. We have the data to prove that.

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20VC: How SHEIN Got So Big So Fast: Behind the Scenes at One of the Fastest Growing Companies in History with Donald Tang, Executive Chairman @ SHEIN

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it's so funny you say that probably the biggest problem facing you know retail today in this world is returns and it's actually this consumer behavior of people buying 10 things and then keeping one well if it's on demand it will be less because it's yours you know if it's not on demand

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20VC: How SHEIN Got So Big So Fast: Behind the Scenes at One of the Fastest Growing Companies in History with Donald Tang, Executive Chairman @ SHEIN

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Your success has been unbelievable. And when we look at natural financial mechanisms to achieve liquidity and the natural progression of the company, I spoke to some of your investors too, who we mentioned before, and they said the IPO is so important for the restart of the China tech ecosystem. And it's a big responsibility.

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20VC: How SHEIN Got So Big So Fast: Behind the Scenes at One of the Fastest Growing Companies in History with Donald Tang, Executive Chairman @ SHEIN

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How do you see your role and your role model status for global companies with Chinese roots?

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20VC: How SHEIN Got So Big So Fast: Behind the Scenes at One of the Fastest Growing Companies in History with Donald Tang, Executive Chairman @ SHEIN

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Do you not feel that burden? I mean, you are a, whatever the price is, a huge company. And your ability to price on a global market, whether that is NASDAQ or London or wherever it is, that will dictate how a lot of people think about a lot of maybe Chinese-rooted companies. Do you not feel that?

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20VC: How SHEIN Got So Big So Fast: Behind the Scenes at One of the Fastest Growing Companies in History with Donald Tang, Executive Chairman @ SHEIN

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Donald, I am so excited for this. I've been looking forward to this one for a long time. So thank you so much for joining me. Well, thank you for having me. Now, I would love to start. I heard that you worked in a series of restaurants to finance your education in the early days. Can you just talk to me about that? Where was it? How old were you? What did you learn from those early days?

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20VC: How SHEIN Got So Big So Fast: Behind the Scenes at One of the Fastest Growing Companies in History with Donald Tang, Executive Chairman @ SHEIN

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Why is IPO-ing a good idea? You are profitable. You are growing insanely fast. Customers love the products. Why IPO?

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20VC: How SHEIN Got So Big So Fast: Behind the Scenes at One of the Fastest Growing Companies in History with Donald Tang, Executive Chairman @ SHEIN

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I hope it's okay, but I think you're an incredibly wise person, Donald, and they would be foolish of me to not take advantage of your wisdom in another way, which is you've mentioned the importance of the pick being your wife. You've been married for many, many years very happily.

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20VC: How SHEIN Got So Big So Fast: Behind the Scenes at One of the Fastest Growing Companies in History with Donald Tang, Executive Chairman @ SHEIN

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When you look back on the marriage, what are some of your biggest lessons on what it takes to have a very happy marriage? That's pretty easy for me.

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20VC: How SHEIN Got So Big So Fast: Behind the Scenes at One of the Fastest Growing Companies in History with Donald Tang, Executive Chairman @ SHEIN

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So with the very happy marriage, you also have children. That's a very important part of your life. But you are so busy and you have a very full on working life. What have been your biggest lessons? And I worry and think about this as I look forward. What have been your biggest lessons on how to be a great father and crush it at work? Probably impossible.

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20VC: How SHEIN Got So Big So Fast: Behind the Scenes at One of the Fastest Growing Companies in History with Donald Tang, Executive Chairman @ SHEIN

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Can you take me to a time when work got out of whack and you felt like you were not being the father you wanted to be?

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20VC: How SHEIN Got So Big So Fast: Behind the Scenes at One of the Fastest Growing Companies in History with Donald Tang, Executive Chairman @ SHEIN

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I got told the other day that the heaviest things in life are not iron or gold, but unmade decisions. Oh, that's interesting. And I thought about that. And then I got asked, what is your unmade decision? And my unmade decision was very clear. I had the chance to move to San Francisco 10 years ago and be a US venture capitalist and a US technologist. And I chose to be in London.

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20VC: How SHEIN Got So Big So Fast: Behind the Scenes at One of the Fastest Growing Companies in History with Donald Tang, Executive Chairman @ SHEIN

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I don't know if that was the right choice. The unmade decision that I think about.

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20VC: How SHEIN Got So Big So Fast: Behind the Scenes at One of the Fastest Growing Companies in History with Donald Tang, Executive Chairman @ SHEIN

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Final one for you before we do a quick fire. I have also kind of thought a lot about relationships to money and how we think about kind of wealth accumulation. What have been your biggest lessons on your relationship to money? And what would you advise me, Donald?

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20VC: How SHEIN Got So Big So Fast: Behind the Scenes at One of the Fastest Growing Companies in History with Donald Tang, Executive Chairman @ SHEIN

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What is the biggest misnomer that people have about the business?

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20VC: How SHEIN Got So Big So Fast: Behind the Scenes at One of the Fastest Growing Companies in History with Donald Tang, Executive Chairman @ SHEIN

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What do you believe that most around you disbelieve? So mine, for example, is the only way you can be truly successful is if you're obsessed. And when you say successful, I mean professionally successful in achieving your goals and ambitions. This idea that you can have the weekend off every weekend and go home at seven and watch TV and chat to your partner.

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20VC: How SHEIN Got So Big So Fast: Behind the Scenes at One of the Fastest Growing Companies in History with Donald Tang, Executive Chairman @ SHEIN

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No, you have to get back on your laptop pretty much every night after dinner and work. And every weekend you work and there is no time off. There is no phone in a drawer and I'm done. If you're running a business and building a business to be a huge outcome, billion dollar plus, obsession is the only way to do it. I disagree.

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20VC: How SHEIN Got So Big So Fast: Behind the Scenes at One of the Fastest Growing Companies in History with Donald Tang, Executive Chairman @ SHEIN

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A hundred percent. Can you name a multi-billion dollar company that's built without obsession?

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20VC: How SHEIN Got So Big So Fast: Behind the Scenes at One of the Fastest Growing Companies in History with Donald Tang, Executive Chairman @ SHEIN

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Oh, totally. You can enjoy. I love what I do.

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20VC: How SHEIN Got So Big So Fast: Behind the Scenes at One of the Fastest Growing Companies in History with Donald Tang, Executive Chairman @ SHEIN

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What have you changed your mind on in the last 12 months? So an example for me here would be that people say we have this company culture and it's X. Your company culture depends on the person. Some people respond to the carrot, which is the reward. Right. Come on, we can do this. Let's build together, Donald. And some people respond to the stick.

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20VC: How SHEIN Got So Big So Fast: Behind the Scenes at One of the Fastest Growing Companies in History with Donald Tang, Executive Chairman @ SHEIN

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If we don't do this, we're going to be in trouble and we're going to lose to this competitor. You have to be plastic with how you apply company culture to get the best out of your team. I've changed my mind on that.

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20VC: How SHEIN Got So Big So Fast: Behind the Scenes at One of the Fastest Growing Companies in History with Donald Tang, Executive Chairman @ SHEIN

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I was not expecting that. That was not in the research. Can I ask you, when you look back to that time now, I think a lot of the time we look at incredibly successful people and we say they were kind of always destined for that. When you were working in a restaurant, a busboy, climbing that ladder, did you always know that you'd be successful?

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20VC: How SHEIN Got So Big So Fast: Behind the Scenes at One of the Fastest Growing Companies in History with Donald Tang, Executive Chairman @ SHEIN

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What advice would you have to someone leaving university today, entering the workforce for the first time?

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20VC: How SHEIN Got So Big So Fast: Behind the Scenes at One of the Fastest Growing Companies in History with Donald Tang, Executive Chairman @ SHEIN

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Why, I'm sorry for this not being on schedule, but I'm sure you've been asked many times to do podcasts, to do interviews. I'm so touched that you did this. Why did you decide to do this one? Well, I had a great walk with you and you're very unconventional and you've become a friend. I really appreciate that. And I love to walk and I love the wisdom.

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20VC: How SHEIN Got So Big So Fast: Behind the Scenes at One of the Fastest Growing Companies in History with Donald Tang, Executive Chairman @ SHEIN

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So final one, what question are you not asked or have I not asked that I should have done or people should have done?

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20VC: How SHEIN Got So Big So Fast: Behind the Scenes at One of the Fastest Growing Companies in History with Donald Tang, Executive Chairman @ SHEIN

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I always remember Danny Reimer, who's a very famous investor in London, says, you have to remember to keep the main thing the main thing. Yes. And the hard thing I find with success is that there's many shiny things. Yes. And the more successful you become, the more shiny they are.

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20VC: How SHEIN Got So Big So Fast: Behind the Scenes at One of the Fastest Growing Companies in History with Donald Tang, Executive Chairman @ SHEIN

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And the importance of understanding two vectors, what drives ultimate progression towards goal, and then also does that correlate to happiness?

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20VC: How SHEIN Got So Big So Fast: Behind the Scenes at One of the Fastest Growing Companies in History with Donald Tang, Executive Chairman @ SHEIN

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How do you answer the question that people always ask, which is that you are bad for the climate? Today's show is the show that every journalist wants. Shein is one of the fastest growing companies in history, $32.5 billion in revenue, 100 million shoppers, and 1 million items produced per day.

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20VC: How SHEIN Got So Big So Fast: Behind the Scenes at One of the Fastest Growing Companies in History with Donald Tang, Executive Chairman @ SHEIN

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For me, the main thing is to build the best early stage investing firm in the world. And we use media to do that. I see. I got it. You know, maybe for you, it's to provide customers with the most incredible products. And you use an incredible supply chain and fantastic apparel to give them that.

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20VC: How SHEIN Got So Big So Fast: Behind the Scenes at One of the Fastest Growing Companies in History with Donald Tang, Executive Chairman @ SHEIN

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I have to say, I'm so touched that I got the chance to do that show with Donald. He's really turned into a great friend and I really appreciate him giving me the chance to sit down with him today and ask some of those questions. If you want to watch the full episode, you can on YouTube by searching for 20VC, that's 20VC.

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20VC: How SHEIN Got So Big So Fast: Behind the Scenes at One of the Fastest Growing Companies in History with Donald Tang, Executive Chairman @ SHEIN

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20VC: How SHEIN Got So Big So Fast: Behind the Scenes at One of the Fastest Growing Companies in History with Donald Tang, Executive Chairman @ SHEIN

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20VC: How SHEIN Got So Big So Fast: Behind the Scenes at One of the Fastest Growing Companies in History with Donald Tang, Executive Chairman @ SHEIN

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20VC: How SHEIN Got So Big So Fast: Behind the Scenes at One of the Fastest Growing Companies in History with Donald Tang, Executive Chairman @ SHEIN

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Whether you're just starting out or managing a growing brand, Squarespace makes it easy to create a beautiful website, engage with your audience, and sell anything from products to content, all in one place, all on your terms. What's blown me away is the Squarespace Blueprint AI and SEO tools. It's like crafting your site with a guided system.

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20VC: How SHEIN Got So Big So Fast: Behind the Scenes at One of the Fastest Growing Companies in History with Donald Tang, Executive Chairman @ SHEIN

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ensuring it not only reflects your unique style, but also ranks well on search engines. Plus, their flexible payment options cater to every customer's needs, making transactions smooth and hassle-free. And the Squarespace AI? It's a content wizard helping you whip up text that truly resonates with your brand voice. So if you're ready to get started, head to squarespace.com for a free trial.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: How SHEIN Got So Big So Fast: Behind the Scenes at One of the Fastest Growing Companies in History with Donald Tang, Executive Chairman @ SHEIN

3273.626

And when you're ready to launch, go to squarespace.com slash do the work to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain. And finally, before we dive into the show, I want to recommend a book, The Road to Reinvention, a New York Times bestseller on mastering change. No time to read? Listen to 20VC now, then download the Blinkist app to fit key reads into your schedule. With Blinkist,

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: How SHEIN Got So Big So Fast: Behind the Scenes at One of the Fastest Growing Companies in History with Donald Tang, Executive Chairman @ SHEIN

3296.644

you can grasp the core ideas of over 7,500 non-fiction books and podcasts in just 15 minutes, covering psychology, marketing, business, and more. It's no surprise 82% of Blinkist users see themselves as self-optimizers, and 65% say it's essential for business and career growth.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: How SHEIN Got So Big So Fast: Behind the Scenes at One of the Fastest Growing Companies in History with Donald Tang, Executive Chairman @ SHEIN

331.412

Every day you live your life happily. That's a success. I don't need a lot. And so then how does the first job in finance come to be? Because you have this incredible career at Bear Stearns. You know, 15 years, you were chairman and president of Bear Stearns International. How did the job at Bear happen? And how do you get into finance?

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20VC: How SHEIN Got So Big So Fast: Behind the Scenes at One of the Fastest Growing Companies in History with Donald Tang, Executive Chairman @ SHEIN

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Speaking of business, Blinkist is a trusted L&D partner for industry leaders like Amazon, Hyundai and KPMG UK, empowering over 32 million users since 2012. As a 20VC listener, you can enjoy an exclusive 25% discount on Blinkist. That's B-L-I-N-K-I-S-T. Just visit Blinkist.com to claim your discount and transform the way you learn.

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20VC: How SHEIN Got So Big So Fast: Behind the Scenes at One of the Fastest Growing Companies in History with Donald Tang, Executive Chairman @ SHEIN

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As always, I so appreciate all your support and stay tuned for an incredible episode coming on Wednesday with Brett Taylor, former co-CEO at Salesforce and now the founder of Sierra AI.

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20VC: How SHEIN Got So Big So Fast: Behind the Scenes at One of the Fastest Growing Companies in History with Donald Tang, Executive Chairman @ SHEIN

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Do you not think a chip on your shoulder is a good thing? In our business in venture, we say, you know, chips on shoulders put chips in pockets. And a lot of VCs say they want the founder with the chip on the shoulder, the vengeance to build something.

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20VC: How SHEIN Got So Big So Fast: Behind the Scenes at One of the Fastest Growing Companies in History with Donald Tang, Executive Chairman @ SHEIN

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There are so many questions to ask, and today we sit down with Shein's executive chairman, Donald Tang, for his first ever podcast episode. But before we dive in, this episode is presented by Brex, the financial stack founders can bank on. Brex knows that nearly 40% of startups fail because they run out of cash, so they built a banking experience that takes every dollar further.

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20VC: How SHEIN Got So Big So Fast: Behind the Scenes at One of the Fastest Growing Companies in History with Donald Tang, Executive Chairman @ SHEIN

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How did Sheehan come to be? When we look at the last few years for you, it's been incredible, but it's also a different role. I mean, we had a couple of years also in media world. It's a different role. How did that come to be?

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20VC: How SHEIN Got So Big So Fast: Behind the Scenes at One of the Fastest Growing Companies in History with Donald Tang, Executive Chairman @ SHEIN

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Can I ask, is that different from historical fashion? When you look at, you know, the roots of Chanel, the roots of Hermes, and people would buy them because it was an expression of themselves. It was maybe what they felt they were or what they wanted to be. Sure. Is it not actually the same?

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20VC: How SHEIN Got So Big So Fast: Behind the Scenes at One of the Fastest Growing Companies in History with Donald Tang, Executive Chairman @ SHEIN

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It's a stark difference from traditional banking options that leave your cash sitting idle while chipping away at it with fees. To help you protect your cash,

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20VC: How SHEIN Got So Big So Fast: Behind the Scenes at One of the Fastest Growing Companies in History with Donald Tang, Executive Chairman @ SHEIN

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Can we start at the beginning of that funnel, which is actually identifying user trends, identifying what they love, listening to customers. One of the biggest kind of pillars of the success that you've had is kind of this element of real-time retail, spotting trends that consumers love and then being able to move fast on it. How does real-time retail work specifically for you?

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20VC: How SHEIN Got So Big So Fast: Behind the Scenes at One of the Fastest Growing Companies in History with Donald Tang, Executive Chairman @ SHEIN

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How do you spot trends so efficiently? And what does that look like?

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20VC: How SHEIN Got So Big So Fast: Behind the Scenes at One of the Fastest Growing Companies in History with Donald Tang, Executive Chairman @ SHEIN

85.354

and extend your runway brex combined the best things about checking treasury and fdic insurance in one powerhouse account you can send and receive money worldwide at lightning speed you can get 20x the standard fdic protection through program banks and you can earn industry leading yield from your first dollar while still being able to access your funds anytime brex is a top choice for startups in fact it's used by one in every three startups in the us

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20VC: How SHEIN Got So Big So Fast: Behind the Scenes at One of the Fastest Growing Companies in History with Donald Tang, Executive Chairman @ SHEIN

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So you will literally test with as few as 100 to 200 of a new style.

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20VC: How SHEIN Got So Big So Fast: Behind the Scenes at One of the Fastest Growing Companies in History with Donald Tang, Executive Chairman @ SHEIN

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And that differs drastically from traditional, which was much larger non-networked bases, which basically produced thousands and thousands to then sell.

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20VC: How SHEIN Got So Big So Fast: Behind the Scenes at One of the Fastest Growing Companies in History with Donald Tang, Executive Chairman @ SHEIN

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How do you think about that relationship with the supplier who gets what, how they work together with you to work so closely in that very fast moving environment?

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20VC: How SHEIN Got So Big So Fast: Behind the Scenes at One of the Fastest Growing Companies in History with Donald Tang, Executive Chairman @ SHEIN

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When it comes to actually the supply chain management software, one of the big elements of your business is that all of your suppliers also need to be on this supply chain management software. Why is that a necessity and what does that allow you to do?

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What do you use? Mostly OpenAI. A little bit of Anthropic? A little bit of Anthropic, a little bit of Mistral, yeah. To what extent do you care about price versus utility and functionality?

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The question is, you can buy OpenAI at 160 or Anthropic at 40. Which one do you buy?

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If we go back to how it's impacted the core business, every technology cycle, everyone goes, oh, we're going to lose our jobs, we're going to lose our jobs. And then every technology cycle, we actually just find new things to do. We get better, we get more efficient, more productive. Seb at Klon has fired 700 people in customer support. Which way does it go?

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Speaking of growth, Blinkist has empowered over 32 million users since 2012. And as a 20VC listener, you can enjoy an exclusive 25% discount on Blinkist. That's B-L-I-N-K-I-S-T. Just visit Blinkist.com forward slash 20VC to claim your discount and transform the way you learn.

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I'm being deliberately divisive. Because they're shit jobs. And what I mean by that is not shit, but they're not great jobs to do. Truck driving is a bit boring. Cleaning loos in cinemas and restaurants is boring. Being a hotel maid is a bit shit clearing up after other humans and wiping down loos and humans don't want to do them.

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This is the point though, which is like AI will just replace the truly shit jobs.

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I'm a believer in Adam Smith's invisible hand, you know, where you have a shortage of 50k, you see salary increases for the kindergarten providers, and suddenly that 50k goes down to 10k.

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Ah, I completely disagree with all forms of regulation and government intervention as a venture capitalist. Okay, so we have this. Does that mean that we will see essentially what Klarnav said, which is the removal of Salesforce, the removal of Workday, we're building all of the tools internally ourselves? Is that what's going to happen?

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And while you're optimizing your learning, let's also optimize your finances with Brex, the financial stack founders can bank on. Brex knows that nearly 40% of startups fail because they run out of cash. So they built a banking experience that takes every dollar further. It's such a difference from traditional banking options that leave your cash sitting idle while chipping away at it with fees.

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And so you move those people out of the business. It is tough. I think you also have a duty of responsibility to your existing team members as well, where none of them will have jobs if you don't move forward with times and with technology. And so, sadly, that is business progression.

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Did you do the let-goes in one go or did you do them in multiple rounds?

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When we chatted before, you said about an AI talent cold war. And I was like, what the fuck is that? Can you help me understand that?

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What do they want specifically? They want you to build your AI teams in their country? Yes, and relocate there. and relocate there. Do they offer anything in return? What is their sell?

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Why would you not do that? They're going to take away the cost base of your AI team.

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Why? Is it the best in Berlin? Is it most convenient? It's because you're there. Why is it Berlin?

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But for specifically AI, there's no great institution spinning out of Berlin. If you go to London, though, we've got DeepMind, we have Facebook, we have Cambridge, we have Oxford, and we have some amazing educational and large. We're better for AI. Why aren't you here?

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How many machine learning engineers do you have? Broad strokes. 15 to 18. 15 to 18. And they're in Berlin too. Where would you most be persuaded to go to?

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Okay, so first off... I actually interviewed Des Traynor quite recently from Intercom. Actually, it's like an internal Intercom event. And he was like, I'm not going to do his accent because I suck at an Irish accent. But he was like, essentially, for most of Europe, AI is just shut off.

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He's like, Facebook, they just won't entertain putting any of their AI products in Europe because of the regulatory lack of clarity. And so it's like, boop, you don't get AI. Sorry, bad luck. Is that true? Yeah.

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And it's hard. And then you said there's foundation models, there's obviously chips, and there's energy, the three factors. Yeah. Okay. So if we just go through them, I'm a European, you're a European, you're in Germany, I'm in London. I want to stay a European. So one by one, chips. Yeah. What can we do that would make you happy and make us not lost?

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So we've got chips like invest in the right winner, back them, build them here. Energy, hard problem, TBD. Happy to have a TBD. We can't have solutions to all of them. And then foundation models. Why is foundation models the hardest?

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I naively posit, well, we have DeepMind and we have actually huge amounts of long resources in Paris and incredible AI centers in Paris. We absolutely can stand up a team. And founder-wise, respectfully, I'm with you. I think the quality of European founders is much worse than U.S. We'll get into that. But we only need one, Samuel. Yes. We don't need 50. We need one. And so I disagree with you.

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We could do a foundation model. I mean, Mistral, I think Mistral is proving that we can. Respectfully, they just don't have anywhere near enough money.

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I completely agree, but I think we actually have it in our control to solve the talent shortage, which is why I'm so fucking visceral against the UK government right now, despite being in the UK. Whereas increasing capital gains tax does not make entrepreneurs want to build in your country. Before, you've said to me that regulatory is like this catch-all that we use in Europe.

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It's like, oh, that's why we haven't actually achieved. And actually, it's just a bit of an excuse for, I think it was laziness or lack of work ethic. What do you mean by that?

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First, I think we do have enough domestic capital now. Like the amount of incredible and not incredible funds in Europe. There are too many. I think there's too much money for too little good entrepreneurs. So I think we do. And then we have the globalization of capital. So right, tick. Agreed. Funding is not the problem. Regulatory.

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What about the fragmentation of countries and the different regulatory provisions that come with each different jurisdiction?

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I agree. And that's why $15 billion is the biggest with Chime and we have a $45 billion company with Revolut.

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including NASDAQ, AngelList, Doodle, and Coda, trust SecureFrame to expedite their compliance journey for global security and privacy standards such as SOC 2, ISO 27001, HIPAA, GDPR, and more, backed by top-tier investors and corporations such as Google and Kleiner Perkins.

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The company is among Forbes' list of top 100 startup employers for 2023 and Business Insider's list of the 34 most promising AI startups for 2023. Learn more today at secureframe.com. It is a must. You have now arrived at your destination. Dan, I am so excited for this, dude. We met at a KOTU dinner with Dan Rose a while ago now, so I'm so excited that we can make this happen in person.

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I don't buy that. I think it increases distractions, it reduces capital efficiency, it gives you more runway, which does not increase execution speed.

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So I want to just dive right in. You were a SaaS company. You were a darling of the traditional SaaS market, raised a lot of venture money. Why did you decide to pivot from SaaS to 100% of your revenue coming from AI?

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Why did you let that party happen? Like straight away there, I'm like, oh, like, you know, we closed the 400 million fund. We did not have a celebratory dinner. I had a walk and then dinner with my mom.

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Yeah, in hindsight, wouldn't do it again. When you look back at your management through COVID, is there anything that you would change?

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330 million. What's your single biggest lesson on fundraising? Mine is like fundamentally no one will give you money the first time they meet you. This is for funds in particular. The big problem with managers is they're like, oh, I'm fundraising. And they expect people to give them money. My biggest check in this fund was $40 million. And they've known me for eight years. Never invested before.

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To your point on upside, the thing founders don't often articulate best is like, how's this a $10 billion company? And I think we're almost trained not to in Europe because it's arrogant or it's too idealistic or it's, but I have to see a billion dollar revenue business.

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There's a very sad moment for me in a Jensen Huang interview where they said, would you do this again? And he goes, no. If I knew how hard it was, I wouldn't do it again. Respectfully, Daniel, you're in a great place now with the AIG, but with COVID, with the transition, with everything that we've been through, would you do it again? Yeah.

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I remember when I was fundraising, it was a tough time fundraising. It's a couple of years ago. And my friend who started Calm, Alex Will, said to me, Harry, you don't get it, dude. Entrepreneurship is about getting punched in the face time and time again and going, give me more. And you have to enjoy that. Not like be okay with it. You have to like actually seek it out.

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Can I ask a final one, which is you said you raised 300 and 330, whatever. Yeah. What did you spend on that you wish you hadn't spent on first?

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When everyone is raising a lot of money around you, the space got very hot very quickly. Some people say, you've got to raise two, you've got to compete. Others say, the money will dry up. What matters is actually not getting involved in the frenzy and playing your own game. Which one makes sense?

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Lions don't lose sleep over sheep. I love that. I haven't had that before. Listen, I've loved doing this. I want to do a quick fire with you. So I say a short statement, you give me your immediate thoughts. So what do you believe that most around you disbelieve?

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I know your revenue growth has scaled immensely. If I'm allowed to ask, what's your revenue?

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That is insane, though, when you look back to that flight and you look back to thinking, reminding you of that looker. Yeah, yeah. But like 300 and it's like that was that was the great. And then it got shot. And now to be at two and a half. Yeah, it's it's been wild. It's good to have the really shit times because it keeps you level on what truly shit can be.

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You can be CEO of another company for a day. Which company would you like to be CEO of?

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Also, what precedent do you set that you missed the goal and still pay it? Yeah, exactly.

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This is where if you're in the US and if we were asking for generational companies, don't laugh, you'd have someone who'd say, I'm going to build another railway. Deutsche Bahn is shit. They are completely lacking the profit incentive. They're terribly run. The next European Elon Musk would go, I can do it better.

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I'd choose Palantir, like just to peer into any global conflict and be like, what's going on?

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Daniel, final one. What question are you not ever asked by investors, by team members, by media that you think you should be asked?

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But if you thrive on competition, if that's what gets you off, the win is everything.

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And yeah. And so normally I am like pushing CEOs away from selling that company. OK, because your promotional shows are never good shows. I'm about to defend your company in the stance that you're not taking. You're like, hey, we had to make the shift. I would argue. And this is why I want this debate. You have proprietary relationships with food distributors.

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Do you ever think like, am I doing something big enough? It's like you could reinvent how a million Germans get to work every day, 10 million Germans, 20 million, how fundamentally children learn with respect. Do you ever think, am I doing big enough? Like I have one life.

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You have a huge amount of data on products, on financials, on invoicing, everything around that. Those are two huge moats that I could come in with a better product. I do not have the historical relationships. I do not have the data moats. Technology doesn't matter in that respect. Why does Facebook open source Lama? Because the values and the data that they have.

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Daniel, listen, I've so loved doing this. You have been an amazing guest. The guests that I love are ones where there's a real opinion, where we can have a conversation and it's like you have a point and you're ready to make it. The worst are when you sit on the fence. It's amazing how many people come on a podcast and sit on the fence. You've been fantastic. So thank you so much.

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And I've loved doing this, man. Harry, it was really, really cool. Thank you so much for the invite. Appreciate it. If you want to watch the full episode, you can watch it on YouTube by searching for 20VC. That's 20VC on YouTube. But before we leave you today, I want to recommend a book, The Road to Reinvention, a New York Times bestseller on mastering change. No time to read? Listen to 20VC.

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20 vc now then download the blinkist app to fit key reads into your schedule with blinkist you can grasp the core ideas of over seven and a half thousand non-fiction books and podcasts in just 15 minutes covering psychology marketing business and more it's no surprise blinkist users see themselves as self-optimizers and 65 say it's essential for business and career growth

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Speaking of growth, Blinkist has empowered over 32 million users since 2000. And as a 20VC listener, you can enjoy an exclusive 25% discount on Blinkist. That's B-L-I-N-K-I-S-T. Just visit Blinkist.com forward slash 20VC to claim your discount and transform the way you learn.

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And while you're optimizing your learning, let's also optimize your finances with Brex, the financial stack founders can bank on. Brex knows that nearly 40% of startups fail because they run out of cash. So they built a banking experience that takes every dollar further. It's such a difference from traditional banking options that leave your cash sitting idle while chipping away at it with fees.

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To help you protect your cash and extend your runway, Brex combined the best things about checking, treasury and FDIC insurance in one powerhouse account. You can send and receive money worldwide at lightning speed. You can get 20x the standard FDIC protection through program banks and you can earn industry-leading yield from your first dollar while still being able to access your funds anytime.

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Brex is a top choice for startups In fact, hey, it's used by one in every three startups in the US. Just check them out now, brex.com forward slash startups. And talking about building trust, SecureFrame provides incredible levels of trust to your customers through automation.

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SecureFrame empowers businesses to build trust with customers by simplifying information security and compliance through AI and automation. Thousands of fast-growing businesses, including NASDAQ, AngelList, Doodle, and Coda, Trust SecureFrame to expedite their compliance journey for global security and privacy standards such as SOC 2, ISO 27001, HIPAA, GDPR, and more.

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Backed by top-tier investors and corporations such as Google and Kleiner Perkins, the company is among Forbes' list of top 100 startup employers for 2023 and Business Insider's list of the 34 most promising AI startups for 2023. It is a must.

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As always, we so appreciate your support for the show and I cannot wait to bring you a fantastic episode with Carrie, founder and CEO at Linear, one of Silicon Valley's hottest startups on Wednesday.

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who overnight decided to kill their SaaS business and be an AI-first company. From why SaaS is dead, to why Europe is screwed, to the Cold War for talent, this episode is a cracker. I'm thrilled to welcome Daniel Kashap, co-founder and CEO at Choco, to the hot seat.

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20VC: Why SaaS is Dead | Why AI First Companies Will Win | We are in the Middle of a Cold War for AI Talent | Why Europe is F******* and We Need to Stop Whining with Daniel Khachab, Co-Founder @ Choco

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Which jobs have changed most significantly today and which will be slower to change?

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Other than developers, where Copilot is still a long way off and has got a lot of problems, hence the rebrand, where are you seeing meaningful, meaningful? I saw in the AI first that 80% reduction in customer service cost. But like, build with AI, it's not... It's not really changed much yet for different people in different roles.

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Now, since founding Choco in 2018, they've raised over $330 million from Bessemer, Cotu, and Insight, reaching unicorn status within just two and a half years. But before we dive into the show today, I want to recommend a book, The Road to Reinvention, a New York Times bestseller on mastering change. No time to read?

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Respectfully, are you saying that we're seeing the end of SaaS and the agentification of all software in business as a fundamental transition?

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So just so I understand, so we will have... We will still have single sources of data truth, which is like your Salesforce, which is your repository of sales data, correct? And then we will have like application layer on top of them, which will just be prompt engines. And it'll be the same for HR, the same for payroll. Is that it? Could be.

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So I have so many areas where I want to go on this one. The first one I'll just say is like, you know, we're in Europe. In Europe, 62% of large enterprises still don't know what Slack is. 91% don't know what Notion is. Respectfully, getting them to move to cloud, a challenge in itself. Embracing an agent-based SaaS ecosystem is 10 years out, Daniel.

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How do you respond to the data security compliance, large enterprise gnarly logistic challenges which prevent the adoption of new technologies like this?

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Listen to 20VC now, then download the Blinkist app to fit key reads into your schedule. With Blinkist, you can grasp the core ideas of over 7,500 non-fiction books and podcasts in just 15 minutes, covering psychology, marketing, business, and more. It's no surprise Blinkist users see themselves as self-optimizers, and 65% say it's essential for business and career growth.

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I speak to many, obviously, AI leaders, and they say the single biggest problem right now is actually implementation. It's not the sales cycle. There's budgets and they want to spend on AI. But it's implementation. It's data readiness. It's data cleanliness. And we have this post-agreement process where it's like, oh, I don't know what to do now. How do you think about that?

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I'm an investor for a living alongside the podcast, and I have to think about where value accrues in the stack. We mentioned earlier you're using OpenAI for a lot of customer support elements. Where does value accrue, and what does it make sense for foundation model companies to build applications for versus what they just let have in an app ecosystem?

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For me, it's always like, what's the growth rate? What's the gross margin? Right. And when we look at those two, there's this generation of companies that are actually a real question mark, which is your Dropbox, your Box, your Twilio.

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I'm not selecting them out deliberately or maliciously, but just the generation of fastly of SaaS companies that are in that low, low growth slash flat growth and not actually as good SaaS margins as SaaS ideally has. What happens to this plethora of SaaS companies?

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But there is a challenge, which is when you accept slow growth as the new norm, suddenly you really get hit with price. You know, we saw Salesforce, I think they missed earnings by like 100 million or a small insignificant amount given the quantum of revenue that they have.

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But it was really the acceptance from them that their growth rate was now for the second quarter in a row slower and they were moving into a period of actually just continuous slow growth.

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In addition to must-read journalism in your inbox every day, you'll engage with fellow leaders in their active discussions or in person at exclusive events. Learn more and access a special offer for 20VC's listeners at www.theinformation.com slash deals slash 20VC. And speaking of incredible products that allows your team to do more, we need to talk about SecureFrame.

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But like if you're a Stripe, Why on earth would you go public? You can provide liquidity to your employees and to your investors in the form of secondaries. You cannot be in the public spotlight in terms of exposing all your financials and not have the scrutiny of being a public company. And there's ample supply of capital that wants to buy into your business at a great price.

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The alternative to that is you can also sell the business. Yeah, you can sell the business. M&A is pretty much shut. Lina Khan seems to have really put an iron fist on the M&A market. Do you agree that the M&A market is shut in a Lina Khan environment?

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SecureFrame provides incredible levels of trust to your customers through automation. SecureFrame empowers businesses to build trust with customers by simplifying information security and compliance through AI and automation.

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Figma put the biggest thorn in the M&A market, which basically said, listen, there is a huge chance that after 18 months of grueling process, you will then be blocked. And then for a business like Wiz, we do not want to take that risk. It is a very, very significant downside if it doesn't happen for the morale of the company. And actually, it's not worth the risk if after all that time we can.

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And so the fear of it being blocked made it such a dangerous activity to engage in.

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No, listen, and you've seen your Loom sell to Atlassians for $950 million. You've seen your Clearbits even sell to HubSpot for $150 million. It is the mega acquisitions which really draw the scrutiny for sure. I am just interested though, when we think about that, you've tweeted before about Wiz and actually why, if they did walk away, maybe it was a mistake to walk away.

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Thousands of fast-growing businesses, including NASDAQ, AngelList, Doodle, and Coda, trust SecureFrame to expedite their compliance journey for global security and privacy standards such as SOC 2, ISO 2701, HIPAA, GDPR, and more. backed by top-tier investors and corporations such as Google, Kleiner Perkins.

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That's probably my favorite quote that we've had on the show, by the way. That is fantastic. I love that. I want to go to the pricing of the IPO because we've had Bill Gurley on the show a couple of times before, and he's spoken quite strongly about how we leave too much on the table with the pricing of the IPOs.

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And actually, the pop shows that actually employees and early investors didn't optimize and actually left money on the table. How do you think about pricing below to leave room for a pop versus pricing to perfection to make sure full value extraction for the early investors and early employees?

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Can I ask a stupid question, but I think the show has thrived because I ask questions that people don't know, but maybe too afraid to admit they don't know. How does the process actually work? So say I am the founder of Wiz and I want to go public in 24 months. I say I want to go public and I go and see a load of big institutions. How does that buy book building work and who sets the price?

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The company is among the Forbes list of top 100 startup employers for 2023 and Business Insider's list of the 34 most promising AI startups of 2023. Learn more today at secureframe.com. It really is a must. And finally, a company is nothing without its people, and so I want to talk about Cooley, the global law firm built around startups and venture capital.

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Since forming the first venture fund in Silicon Valley, Cooley has formed more venture capital funds than any other law firm in the world, with 60 plus years working with VCs. They help VCs form and manage funds, make investments, and handle the myriad issues that arise through a fund's lifetime.

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I remember when Instacart IPO'd, people said actually the distribution of the buy book showed that it wasn't an in-demand IPO. There wasn't a concentration of one or two great names with larger concentrated positions. And that distribution across several names suggested that it wasn't a hot or in-demand IPO. Is that a true characteristic? Is concentration a characteristic of quality?

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My question is, and I often think about this, is we've seen a lot of investors believe that because of the information they have from the company historically over the last 10 years being private, they have asymmetric information and can manage that position much better in public markets than maybe their LPs can who don't have that information. I hear that now. understand that logic.

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But I also think they've understood that company in a environment which is private and in public markets where you have activist investors, where you have shorts, where you have a huge additional amount of variance, which make it a very different environment. You do not actually have asymmetric information because of the changing landscape. Which side do you sit on?

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We use them at 20 VC and have loved working with their teams in the US, London and Asia over the last few years. So to learn more about the number one most active law firm representing VC-backed companies going public, head over to cooley.com and also cooleygo.com, Cooley's award-winning free legal resource for entrepreneurs. You have now arrived at your destination.

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So before we move into Snap and Alibaba, which I can't wait to discuss, I do just have to ask, when we look at the political environment today, it does have an impact on markets. So forgetting anything around the markets, because I don't want to wade into that, but just purely on market and market reception, how does a Harris versus a Trump administration change public market health sentiment?

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It did make me laugh because a lot of my American friends say Europe excels in stifling innovation. And I'm like, well, you seem to be doing a pretty good job with this innovation on the tax system. Listen, I do want to just discuss kind of capex spend by incumbents and then the chasm between capex spend and revenue, which is vast now.

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Imran, I am so excited for this. I've heard so many good things from Ash for quite a while now. So first, thank you so much for joining me today.

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I had David Kahn on the show from Sequoia, who you actually kind of quote tweeted one of his, and it's the $600 billion question in AI he references. How do you feel about the large chasm between capex spend by incumbents, now supposedly $600 billion, and the lagging revenue that we see, which is very, very significant and widening?

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I 100% agree. I think it goes back to a question like we said earlier on duration, one. And then I think it's kind of like an arms race in the way that the incumbents have to spend.

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Dude, it is so nice to do this in person. But I want to start right in the meat of it, which is we look at the IPO windows today, and everyone continues to moan, they are closed, they are closed. Everyone said H224, they would open. It seems that was not right. How do you analyze the closed IPO window that we have today, Imran?

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You said Google before. You said Amazon before. Both are protecting incredible cloud businesses. They have to spend to protect their cloud business. And that's their cash cow. Zark has a cash cow in Instagram and News Feed, which is not a cloud-based cash cow. How does Zuck not having a cloud-based cash cow change how he can behave?

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I do want to touch on, you mentioned Google quite a few times, but you also took Alibaba public. How did that come to be? I know this was earlier in your career. How did you come to take Alibaba public?

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And that's why analogies can be helpful. People often discredit Uber for X, Airbnb. Actually, it can sometimes really help simplify the story of Airbnb for Y. Yeah, then you understand, then you can do the work.

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I have a lot of LPs and I speak to a lot of LPs and they have existing China positions and they have no net new forward China positions. And they go, I don't know what the fuck's going to happen in China and I don't know what to do with my historical and then moving forward.

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If you were to sit down and advise me as a big institution with a historical portfolio in China and then capital allocation decision of whether we should continue to commit to China.

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Moving to Snap, it's an interesting kind of role shift because then you were chief strategy officer with Ev at Snap and you took the company from 0 to 1.6 billion in revenue. First off, working with Ev, Ev's a hailed product mind. What are your biggest lessons from working with Ev? What makes him so good?

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When you reflect back on your time, you mentioned some incredible product additions, improvements. What did you do that you wish you hadn't done?

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Zero to 1.6 billion in revenue is enormous. What did you do very well that allowed you to grow revenue as successfully, as quickly?

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And DR business is? Direct response. Direct response business. Okay. And you would have done that earlier?

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That's fantastic. So how did that correlate into the 200 million? So Joe calls you one day and says, hey, I want to formalize.

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So that's how. And then in terms of the Snap IPO process, how was that? Because Snap is a unique beast in terms of the story to public markets that I always think you need to understand your audience when you're selling a story. It's a different audience to a venture investor audience when you're selling Snap to public markets investors. How did that go down in the IPO process?

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Listen, I've loved this conversation. I want to do a quick fire round. So I say a short statement, you give me your immediate thoughts. Does that sound okay? Sounds good. So what do you believe that most around you disbelieve, Imran?

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What do you make of the large institutions and crossover funds all coming way early into private markets?

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Listen, Imran, I've absolutely loved having you on. Thank you so much for putting up with my wide array of discussion topics. Great, it was fun. You've been a fantastic guest.

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I mean, from Jack Ma and Jamie Dimon to the IPO and the M&A markets, that conversation certainly had some breadth. I so enjoyed doing that one. And if you want to see the full interview, you can watch it on YouTube by searching for 20VC. That's 2-0-V-C.

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20VC: Why the IPO Market is not Closed | Why Revenue Multiples are BS and Founders Need to Change | Advice From Jack Ma, Jamie Dimon and Evan Spiegel | Lessons from Taking Snap & Alibaba Public with Imran Khan

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But before we leave you today, when a promising startup files for an IPO or a venture capital firm loses its marquee partner, being the first to know gives you an advantage and time to plan your strategic response. Chances are the information reported it first.

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The information is the trusted source for that important first look at actionable news across technology and finance, driving decisions with breaking stories, proprietary data tools and a spotlight on industry trends. With a subscription, you will join an elite community that includes leaders from the top VC firms, CEOs from Fortune 500 companies and esteemed banking and investment professionals.

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3760.051

In addition to must-read journalism in your inbox every day, you'll engage with fellow leaders in their active discussions or in person at exclusive events. Learn more and access a special offer for 20VCs listeners at www.theinformation.com slash deals slash 20VC. And speaking of incredible products that allows your team to do more, we need to talk about SecureFrame.

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3784.065

SecureFrame provides incredible levels of trust to your customers through automation. SecureFrame empowers businesses to build trust with customers by simplifying information security and compliance through AI and automation. Thousands of fast-growing businesses, including NASDAQ, AngelList, Doodle, and Coda trust SecureFrame to expedite their compliance journey

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for global security and privacy standards such as SOC 2, ISO 2701, HIPAA, GDPR, and more. Backed by top-tier investors and corporations such as Google, Kleiner Perkins, the company is among the Forbes list of top 100 startup employers for 2023 and Business Insider's list of the 34 most promising AI startups of 2023. Learn more today at secureframe.com. It really is a must.

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And finally, a company is nothing without its people, a global law firm built around startups and venture capital. Since forming the first venture fund in Silicon Valley, Cooley has formed more venture capital funds than any other law firm in the world, with 60 plus years working with VCs.

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They help VCs form and manage funds, make investments, and handle the myriad issues that arise through a fund's lifetime. We use them at 20 VC and have loved working with their teams in the US, London and Asia over the last few years.

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So to learn more about the number one most active law firm representing VC-backed companies going public, head over to cooley.com and also cooleygo.com, Cooley's award-winning free legal resource for entrepreneurs. As always, I so appreciate all your support and stay tuned for an incredible episode coming this Wednesday.

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So if we just take those one by one, you said there about kind of founders resetting expectations and the companies maybe aren't ready for the public markets for the prices that they want to go out at. So what would you do if you're the founders? Should they bite the bullet and accept that actually they will go out and they should go out and it should just be at a lower price than they'd like?

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20VC: Why the IPO Market is not Closed | Why Revenue Multiples are BS and Founders Need to Change | Advice From Jack Ma, Jamie Dimon and Evan Spiegel | Lessons from Taking Snap & Alibaba Public with Imran Khan

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God, I love those intros. This is 20 VC with me, Harry Stebbings. Now, the core problem in venture today is liquidity, both from M&A and IPOs. The liquidity taps have turned off and LPs are screaming for liquidity. So today we sit down with the OG of IPOs, a man who's taken some of the biggest companies public from Alibaba to Snap. Imran Khan.

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Or should they consume the capital that is there in private markets and continue to stay private for longer?

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So I hear you completely there from an investor perspective. I speak to a lot of founders and they say, I get that. What people fail to understand is what the price is largely determines the morale within the company. And so if we go out and it's a crap price compared to what people thought it was or what employees had in their mind, it really is challenging for morale.

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I do want to address number two, which is actually kind of the shifting allocations of large institutions and endowments to privates. We mentioned that kind of the reduction of volatility that comes with that. The thing that also comes with that is a lot of illiquidity, which is a big challenge.

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How do we solve the problem of illiquidity in private markets with the extension of private capital, meaning IPOs are so much further off and the removal of M&As? There's just no liquidity.

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He was previously chief strategy officer at Snap, where under his leadership, Snap's annual revenue run rate increased to $1.6 billion from zero in less than four years. And he led Alibaba's $200 million investment into Snapchat.

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20VC: Why the IPO Market is not Closed | Why Revenue Multiples are BS and Founders Need to Change | Advice From Jack Ma, Jamie Dimon and Evan Spiegel | Lessons from Taking Snap & Alibaba Public with Imran Khan

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But before we dive in, when a promising startup files for an IPO or a venture capital firm loses its marquee partner, being the first to know gives you an advantage and time to plan your strategic response. Chances are the information reported it first.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Why the IPO Market is not Closed | Why Revenue Multiples are BS and Founders Need to Change | Advice From Jack Ma, Jamie Dimon and Evan Spiegel | Lessons from Taking Snap & Alibaba Public with Imran Khan

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I think people always, always, always forget also Shopify went public at 700 million. Yeah. Amazing business. Amazing business.

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So I sit with a lot of 25 to 35 year old investors, and we've only seen the last 10 years, say, of the kind of macro landscape. And a lot of them are saying, oh, my God, look at the revenue multiples that we're getting. I mean, this is this is impossible to make our business work. And my question to you is, is this actually just a reversion back to what normal was?

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And we lived in a grossly inflated, maladjusted time. Or actually, will we see revenue multiples reflate and happiness return?

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The information is the trusted source for that important first look at actionable news across technology and finance, driving decisions with breaking stories, proprietary data tools, and a spotlight on industry trends. With a subscription, you will join an elite community that includes leaders from the top VC firms, CEOs from Fortune 500 companies, and esteemed banking and investment professionals.

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Chances are the information reported it first. The information is the trusted source for that important first look at actionable news across technology and finance, driving decisions with breaking stories, proprietary data tools, and a spotlight on industry trends.

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What was it about the retention numbers that you can share that gave you such confidence? Was it the D7, which is the day seven, the D14, the D28? Was it the daily usage? What was it which made you go, wow, we have something?

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With a subscription, you will join an elite community that includes leaders from the top VC firms, CEOs from Fortune 500 companies, and esteemed banking and investment professionals. In addition to must-read journalism in your inbox every day, you'll engage with fellow leaders in their active discussions or in person at exclusive events.

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So then you have this moment of, wow, we actually have something. Six months retention is incredible. How were you acquiring customers at that point? Customer acquisition from zero to a million is very hard. You have little brand, you have little word of mouth. How were you acquiring customers and what did that look like?

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Learn more and access a special offer for 20 VCs listeners at www.theinformation.com. And speaking of incredible products that allows your team to do more, we need to talk about SecureFrame. SecureFrame provides incredible levels of trust to your customers through automation.

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So that was going to be my question, which is like, do you believe then if you build it, they will come? Or is that not the case and you actually have to have a completely paid strategy today?

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How long did it take you to get to a million users? One year. Was that much quicker than you anticipated?

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Do you really think that is just because you had a better product?

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SecureFrame empowers businesses to build trust with customers by simplifying information security and compliance through AI and automation. thousands of fast-growing businesses, including Nasdaq, AngelList, Doodle, and Coda, trust SecureFrame to expedite their compliance journey for global security and privacy standards such as SOC 2, ISO 2701, HIPAA, GDPR, and more.

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I spoke to some of your team and they said, well, not a weakness, but something interesting about Dimitri is he doesn't love brand or PR. It's an interesting point because most do actually. Why don't you like brand or PR?

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And I got 30 different answers. Can I give you mine? Yeah. I think it's like the way that it makes the customer feel. How they feel when they see your logo, when they touch your product, that is your brand. What they say when you're out of the room.

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I don't think I've ever had a CEO like you on the show. Honestly, you are one of the most humble people I've ever had on this show. And I've done 10 years of this show. Do you think there's ever a point where that holds you back? You know, Flow is a massive brand now. People care about the Flow brand.

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Do you think that the hesitation to spend money on billboards, brand, marketing is going to hold you back?

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One big piece of advice that's often given in startups, Dimitri, is speed is everything and you've got to move really fast. And that's the secret to success in the early days. Do you agree with that?

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backed by top-tier investors and corporations such as Google, Kleiner Perkins. The company is among the Forbes list of top 100 startup employers for 2023 and Business Insider's list of the 34 most promising AI startups of 2023. Learn more today at secureframe.com. It really is a must.

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I completely agree. It's about the number of at-bats you have. That means that you need to raise, in often cases with consumer, quite a large seed round. How big was your seed round?

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20VC: From Potato Farm to $200M in Revenue: The Never-Before-Told Story of Flo Health: Scaling to $1BN Valuation, 75M Users & Getting 100s of No's From Investors Along the Way with Dmitry Gurski

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Yeah, that's the business model of venture capital, Dimitri. That's why it's a very good business. It's one of the only businesses in the world where you can do 100 things and mess up 99 of them. Can you imagine if I told you you can do 99 versions of Flow and 98 can be shit? One's good.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: From Potato Farm to $200M in Revenue: The Never-Before-Told Story of Flo Health: Scaling to $1BN Valuation, 75M Users & Getting 100s of No's From Investors Along the Way with Dmitry Gurski

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And finally, a company is nothing without its people, and so I want to talk about Cooley, the global law firm built around startups and venture capital. Since forming the first venture fund in Silicon Valley, Cooley has formed more venture capital funds than any other law firm in the world, with 60 plus years working with VCs.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: From Potato Farm to $200M in Revenue: The Never-Before-Told Story of Flo Health: Scaling to $1BN Valuation, 75M Users & Getting 100s of No's From Investors Along the Way with Dmitry Gurski

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I worry that that is no longer the case. I agree with you. Crazy and obsessed. I'm not too dissimilar to you in these ways. I'm crazy and obsessed. I could have been a lawyer and paid very happily. And instead I decided to do a podcast. Which made no money. But I love what we do.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: From Potato Farm to $200M in Revenue: The Never-Before-Told Story of Flo Health: Scaling to $1BN Valuation, 75M Users & Getting 100s of No's From Investors Along the Way with Dmitry Gurski

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My worry is there's so much money in venture capital that if you're smart enough, you can be a founder, play the founder game, play startups, get paid quite well and try it. It's a free option. We didn't have such luxury in our days because... But do you see what I mean? Do you worry that it's the same now where we don't have crazy founders like you?

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: From Potato Farm to $200M in Revenue: The Never-Before-Told Story of Flo Health: Scaling to $1BN Valuation, 75M Users & Getting 100s of No's From Investors Along the Way with Dmitry Gurski

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No, it's never easy. But your numbers were so good. I saw your numbers in Sensor Tower. I tweeted about our show and I got all of these data providers send me your numbers and they are consistently great.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: From Potato Farm to $200M in Revenue: The Never-Before-Told Story of Flo Health: Scaling to $1BN Valuation, 75M Users & Getting 100s of No's From Investors Along the Way with Dmitry Gurski

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They help VCs form and manage funds, make investments, and handle the myriad issues that arise through a fund's lifetime. We use them at 20 VC and have loved working with their teams in the US, London and Asia over the last few years.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: From Potato Farm to $200M in Revenue: The Never-Before-Told Story of Flo Health: Scaling to $1BN Valuation, 75M Users & Getting 100s of No's From Investors Along the Way with Dmitry Gurski

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So I'm going to get in trouble for this. I think you are much less fundable than a minority woman from Stanford.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: From Potato Farm to $200M in Revenue: The Never-Before-Told Story of Flo Health: Scaling to $1BN Valuation, 75M Users & Getting 100s of No's From Investors Along the Way with Dmitry Gurski

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I wish we met when you were fundraising below a billion dollars. My question to you is, okay, so then we start monetization. That's a new game. We've got to prove that we can make money now. We've proved that we've got users who love it. How did monetization go? We turn it on. How did it go?

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: From Potato Farm to $200M in Revenue: The Never-Before-Told Story of Flo Health: Scaling to $1BN Valuation, 75M Users & Getting 100s of No's From Investors Along the Way with Dmitry Gurski

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So to learn more about the number one most active law firm representing VC-backed companies going public, head over to cooley.com and also cooleygo.com, Cooley's award-winning free legal resource for entrepreneurs. You have now arrived at your destination. Dimitri, I am such a fan of the incredible journey with Flo. So first off, thank you so much for joining me today. Thank you for inviting me.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: From Potato Farm to $200M in Revenue: The Never-Before-Told Story of Flo Health: Scaling to $1BN Valuation, 75M Users & Getting 100s of No's From Investors Along the Way with Dmitry Gurski

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I think you consistently undersell. I spoke to many of your investors and they said that you're their best founder, but you undersell yourself consistently. When you think about how to sell value and you produce value and then there's how to sell it, what did you learn about how to sell value through the monetization process?

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: From Potato Farm to $200M in Revenue: The Never-Before-Told Story of Flo Health: Scaling to $1BN Valuation, 75M Users & Getting 100s of No's From Investors Along the Way with Dmitry Gurski

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got better with time. Flow now does $200 million in revenue. It is worth over a billion dollars. Do you have less impostor syndrome?

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: From Potato Farm to $200M in Revenue: The Never-Before-Told Story of Flo Health: Scaling to $1BN Valuation, 75M Users & Getting 100s of No's From Investors Along the Way with Dmitry Gurski

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I love it. It's just so rare. You know, we interview a lot of American founders, Dimitri, and the humility that you have is not shared by a lot of them. What were the biggest challenges then as you started to scale monetization? What really became tough?

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: From Potato Farm to $200M in Revenue: The Never-Before-Told Story of Flo Health: Scaling to $1BN Valuation, 75M Users & Getting 100s of No's From Investors Along the Way with Dmitry Gurski

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Not at all. Listen, I've wanted to make this happen for a while. I would love to start. I read actually an interview you'd done before, and I heard that you had a single mother who worked as a librarian. You got your first job at 16. Take me to that. How did those early years shape you as an entrepreneur?

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: From Potato Farm to $200M in Revenue: The Never-Before-Told Story of Flo Health: Scaling to $1BN Valuation, 75M Users & Getting 100s of No's From Investors Along the Way with Dmitry Gurski

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cultural shift did you test pricing a lot i know what a data-driven culture you have when you look at the pricing that you have what are your biggest lessons that you have from pricing

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: From Potato Farm to $200M in Revenue: The Never-Before-Told Story of Flo Health: Scaling to $1BN Valuation, 75M Users & Getting 100s of No's From Investors Along the Way with Dmitry Gurski

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Can I ask, on the freemium versus premium split, What have been some big lessons in how to provide enough value in freemium where they retain and they love your product, but also keep enough value in premium where they're willing to pay for it and make that transition?

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: From Potato Farm to $200M in Revenue: The Never-Before-Told Story of Flo Health: Scaling to $1BN Valuation, 75M Users & Getting 100s of No's From Investors Along the Way with Dmitry Gurski

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So when did we know monetization was working? When did you look at it and go, okay, we've got a good machine here?

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: From Potato Farm to $200M in Revenue: The Never-Before-Told Story of Flo Health: Scaling to $1BN Valuation, 75M Users & Getting 100s of No's From Investors Along the Way with Dmitry Gurski

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So we have that monetization engine working. How long did it take to get to a million in revenue?

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: From Potato Farm to $200M in Revenue: The Never-Before-Told Story of Flo Health: Scaling to $1BN Valuation, 75M Users & Getting 100s of No's From Investors Along the Way with Dmitry Gurski

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How many users did you have when you started that monetization journey?

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: From Potato Farm to $200M in Revenue: The Never-Before-Told Story of Flo Health: Scaling to $1BN Valuation, 75M Users & Getting 100s of No's From Investors Along the Way with Dmitry Gurski

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That's incredible. Is there anything that you do differently about how you launched monetization? Now you know everything that you do.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: From Potato Farm to $200M in Revenue: The Never-Before-Told Story of Flo Health: Scaling to $1BN Valuation, 75M Users & Getting 100s of No's From Investors Along the Way with Dmitry Gurski

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I completely hear you on retention being so important to any consumer app. My question to you is, bluntly, given the use case being periods, it's probably one of the only use cases in consumer that is literally, you can't avoid it. Anything from eating, meaning you can fast. You can gym. You can not go to the gym. Is this a one-off case that can't be replicated?

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: From Potato Farm to $200M in Revenue: The Never-Before-Told Story of Flo Health: Scaling to $1BN Valuation, 75M Users & Getting 100s of No's From Investors Along the Way with Dmitry Gurski

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I love that. And Vinod's fantastic. My question to you is, does the super app not go against focus? Because with the super app mentality, you are building multiple products in the same time simultaneously versus purely focusing on one product at a time. Are they paradoxical?

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: From Potato Farm to $200M in Revenue: The Never-Before-Told Story of Flo Health: Scaling to $1BN Valuation, 75M Users & Getting 100s of No's From Investors Along the Way with Dmitry Gurski

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It is. It's one of the hardest things. It's how do you prevent feature creep with time and stay simple over time. So we have that success with monetization. Now we get to the series A and the B. How were the series A's and B's?

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: From Potato Farm to $200M in Revenue: The Never-Before-Told Story of Flo Health: Scaling to $1BN Valuation, 75M Users & Getting 100s of No's From Investors Along the Way with Dmitry Gurski

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What are the wrong conclusions that I would make comparing it to SaaS?

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: From Potato Farm to $200M in Revenue: The Never-Before-Told Story of Flo Health: Scaling to $1BN Valuation, 75M Users & Getting 100s of No's From Investors Along the Way with Dmitry Gurski

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Do you think the consumer multiple hit that happens with consumer revenue is fair? So if we look at, say, flow, 200 million and a billion, That's a 5x. That is much lower than traditional enterprise software companies would be afforded. Sad to admit that I'm invested in a SaaS business that is at $7 million in ARR and valued at $1.3 billion.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: From Potato Farm to $200M in Revenue: The Never-Before-Told Story of Flo Health: Scaling to $1BN Valuation, 75M Users & Getting 100s of No's From Investors Along the Way with Dmitry Gurski

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There's a brilliant statement which is the market can stay irrational longer than your company can stay solvent.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: From Potato Farm to $200M in Revenue: The Never-Before-Told Story of Flo Health: Scaling to $1BN Valuation, 75M Users & Getting 100s of No's From Investors Along the Way with Dmitry Gurski

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Do you think in five years time we'll have five plus $10 billion consumer subscription companies? We have Duolingo today, which is kind of nine, nine and a half, I believe.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: From Potato Farm to $200M in Revenue: The Never-Before-Told Story of Flo Health: Scaling to $1BN Valuation, 75M Users & Getting 100s of No's From Investors Along the Way with Dmitry Gurski

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Do you think VCs provide value? Of course. What value do you think we provide?

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: From Potato Farm to $200M in Revenue: The Never-Before-Told Story of Flo Health: Scaling to $1BN Valuation, 75M Users & Getting 100s of No's From Investors Along the Way with Dmitry Gurski

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What do annoying VCs do? I want to be the best VC. We joked about me being a VC in my ninth year. but I want to be the best VC and I care passionately about that. If you were to advise me, Harry, I've met hundreds of VCs who've said no, don't do these things. What would those things be?

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: From Potato Farm to $200M in Revenue: The Never-Before-Told Story of Flo Health: Scaling to $1BN Valuation, 75M Users & Getting 100s of No's From Investors Along the Way with Dmitry Gurski

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Do you feel vindicated now? For everyone who didn't believe in you, do you feel, ha-ha?

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: From Potato Farm to $200M in Revenue: The Never-Before-Told Story of Flo Health: Scaling to $1BN Valuation, 75M Users & Getting 100s of No's From Investors Along the Way with Dmitry Gurski

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I get you. It's just sad. Our job is to believe in the outliers. It's to believe the best in people. That's how I view our job.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: From Potato Farm to $200M in Revenue: The Never-Before-Told Story of Flo Health: Scaling to $1BN Valuation, 75M Users & Getting 100s of No's From Investors Along the Way with Dmitry Gurski

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Big market. You have a huge market. I spoke to Jesse at GA before this. She said, ask him, how does Flow go from a $1 billion company to a $10 billion company?

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: From Potato Farm to $200M in Revenue: The Never-Before-Told Story of Flo Health: Scaling to $1BN Valuation, 75M Users & Getting 100s of No's From Investors Along the Way with Dmitry Gurski

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We have approximately the same- Why is their multiple so much better than yours?

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: From Potato Farm to $200M in Revenue: The Never-Before-Told Story of Flo Health: Scaling to $1BN Valuation, 75M Users & Getting 100s of No's From Investors Along the Way with Dmitry Gurski

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Listen, my job is to be a VC, Dimitri. It's got to be worth a try, right? Can I ask you a bit of a weird one on your leadership? Do you think you're a good CEO and how have you changed as a leader over time?

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: From Potato Farm to $200M in Revenue: The Never-Before-Told Story of Flo Health: Scaling to $1BN Valuation, 75M Users & Getting 100s of No's From Investors Along the Way with Dmitry Gurski

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So after 10 years of doing 20VC, I decided I've had enough of podcast tour guests. Guests who go on the same podcast and you've heard their stories before. 20VC from now on will focus on telling the best stories from technology with guests who've never been on a podcast before.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: From Potato Farm to $200M in Revenue: The Never-Before-Told Story of Flo Health: Scaling to $1BN Valuation, 75M Users & Getting 100s of No's From Investors Along the Way with Dmitry Gurski

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Dmitry, what was your first business? You said that your first job was at 16. What was your first business?

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: From Potato Farm to $200M in Revenue: The Never-Before-Told Story of Flo Health: Scaling to $1BN Valuation, 75M Users & Getting 100s of No's From Investors Along the Way with Dmitry Gurski

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I'm fascinated on this one. You've been very successful over the last 10 years. What does money mean to you, Dmitry?

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: From Potato Farm to $200M in Revenue: The Never-Before-Told Story of Flo Health: Scaling to $1BN Valuation, 75M Users & Getting 100s of No's From Investors Along the Way with Dmitry Gurski

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Have you always been this good? You are objectively one of the kindest humans I've had on the show. Shows like this are why I love doing what I do. I didn't expect this type of show. Have you always been like this or has it come over time?

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: From Potato Farm to $200M in Revenue: The Never-Before-Told Story of Flo Health: Scaling to $1BN Valuation, 75M Users & Getting 100s of No's From Investors Along the Way with Dmitry Gurski

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You also work with your brother, Yuri. Not many people know this, but I work with my brother. He's sitting upstairs now. I love it, but everyone says don't work with family. What's your biggest advice to me on how to make it work so successfully with your brother?

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: From Potato Farm to $200M in Revenue: The Never-Before-Told Story of Flo Health: Scaling to $1BN Valuation, 75M Users & Getting 100s of No's From Investors Along the Way with Dmitry Gurski

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That is amazing. I absolutely love that. Yep, there's no way that that would work for me. Are you a wartime leader or a peacetime leader, do you think?

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: From Potato Farm to $200M in Revenue: The Never-Before-Told Story of Flo Health: Scaling to $1BN Valuation, 75M Users & Getting 100s of No's From Investors Along the Way with Dmitry Gurski

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I can't imagine that one. I also can't imagine having to move 100 plus people, which you had to do.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: From Potato Farm to $200M in Revenue: The Never-Before-Told Story of Flo Health: Scaling to $1BN Valuation, 75M Users & Getting 100s of No's From Investors Along the Way with Dmitry Gurski

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What did you learn about managing teams and people through this process?

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: From Potato Farm to $200M in Revenue: The Never-Before-Told Story of Flo Health: Scaling to $1BN Valuation, 75M Users & Getting 100s of No's From Investors Along the Way with Dmitry Gurski

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My question to you is when your mother looks at you and your brother, you guys have achieved such success and you look back to the potato farms and the mushroom picking. What does she say?

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: From Potato Farm to $200M in Revenue: The Never-Before-Told Story of Flo Health: Scaling to $1BN Valuation, 75M Users & Getting 100s of No's From Investors Along the Way with Dmitry Gurski

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Dmitry, how does this work? How do you go from mushroom gathering and farming potatoes and that very wholesome upbringing in that respect to founding one of the largest female... How do you get into technology first?

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: From Potato Farm to $200M in Revenue: The Never-Before-Told Story of Flo Health: Scaling to $1BN Valuation, 75M Users & Getting 100s of No's From Investors Along the Way with Dmitry Gurski

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I like you so much. This has been so much fun. So I'm going to do a quick fire round. So I say a short statement and you give me your immediate thoughts. Does that sound okay? So what do you believe that most around you disbelieve?

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: From Potato Farm to $200M in Revenue: The Never-Before-Told Story of Flo Health: Scaling to $1BN Valuation, 75M Users & Getting 100s of No's From Investors Along the Way with Dmitry Gurski

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You don't think smarts has got anything to do with it, like brains?

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: From Potato Farm to $200M in Revenue: The Never-Before-Told Story of Flo Health: Scaling to $1BN Valuation, 75M Users & Getting 100s of No's From Investors Along the Way with Dmitry Gurski

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Most people don't have discipline, which is you need to not go out and drink with your friends at the end of the day and go back and work. You need to come back after the 90th no and pitch for the 91st time.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: From Potato Farm to $200M in Revenue: The Never-Before-Told Story of Flo Health: Scaling to $1BN Valuation, 75M Users & Getting 100s of No's From Investors Along the Way with Dmitry Gurski

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One of my closest mentors said to me the other day, the heaviest things in life are not iron or gold, but unmade decisions.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: From Potato Farm to $200M in Revenue: The Never-Before-Told Story of Flo Health: Scaling to $1BN Valuation, 75M Users & Getting 100s of No's From Investors Along the Way with Dmitry Gurski

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Who do you not have on the board? Who you would most like to have on your board?

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: From Potato Farm to $200M in Revenue: The Never-Before-Told Story of Flo Health: Scaling to $1BN Valuation, 75M Users & Getting 100s of No's From Investors Along the Way with Dmitry Gurski

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I'll roll with it. Dimitri, I was really looking forward to this one because I love the business. I didn't know how you were going to be, respectfully. You've been fantastic. You are funny. You are direct. Thank you for being so brilliant. And I really have loved this.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: From Potato Farm to $200M in Revenue: The Never-Before-Told Story of Flo Health: Scaling to $1BN Valuation, 75M Users & Getting 100s of No's From Investors Along the Way with Dmitry Gurski

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I mean, what an amazing story. Dimitri is probably one of the most humble and kind CEOs I've ever had the opportunity to have on the show. I absolutely love that discussion and you can watch it. We recorded it in person in the studio in London. You can check that out on YouTube by searching for 20VC. That's 20VC.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: From Potato Farm to $200M in Revenue: The Never-Before-Told Story of Flo Health: Scaling to $1BN Valuation, 75M Users & Getting 100s of No's From Investors Along the Way with Dmitry Gurski

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But before we leave you today, when a promising startup files for an IPO or a venture capital firm loses its marquee partner, being the first to know gives you an advantage and time to plan your strategic response. Chances are the information reported it first.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: From Potato Farm to $200M in Revenue: The Never-Before-Told Story of Flo Health: Scaling to $1BN Valuation, 75M Users & Getting 100s of No's From Investors Along the Way with Dmitry Gurski

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The information is the trusted source for that important first look at actionable news across technology and finance, driving decisions with breaking stories, proprietary data tools and a spotlight on industry trends. With a subscription, you will join an elite community that includes leaders from the top VC firms, CEOs from Fortune 500 companies and esteemed banking and investment professionals.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: From Potato Farm to $200M in Revenue: The Never-Before-Told Story of Flo Health: Scaling to $1BN Valuation, 75M Users & Getting 100s of No's From Investors Along the Way with Dmitry Gurski

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In addition to must-read journalism in your inbox every day, you'll engage with fellow leaders in their active discussions or in person at exclusive events. Learn more and access a special offer for 20VC's listeners at www.theinformation.com slash deals slash 20VC. And speaking of incredible products that allows your team to do more, we need to talk about SecureFrame.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: From Potato Farm to $200M in Revenue: The Never-Before-Told Story of Flo Health: Scaling to $1BN Valuation, 75M Users & Getting 100s of No's From Investors Along the Way with Dmitry Gurski

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SecureFrame provides incredible levels of trust to your customers through automation. SecureFrame empowers businesses to build trust with customers by simplifying information security and compliance through AI and automation. Thousands of fast-growing businesses, including NASDAQ, AngelList, Doodle, and Coda trust SecureFrame to expedite their compliance journey

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: From Potato Farm to $200M in Revenue: The Never-Before-Told Story of Flo Health: Scaling to $1BN Valuation, 75M Users & Getting 100s of No's From Investors Along the Way with Dmitry Gurski

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for global security and privacy standards such as SOC 2, ISO 2701, HIPAA, GDPR, and more. Backed by top-tier investors and corporations such as Google, Kleiner Perkins, the company is among the Forbes list of top 100 startup employers for 2023 and Business Insider's list of the 34 most promising AI startups of 2023. Learn more today at secureframe.com. It really is a must.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: From Potato Farm to $200M in Revenue: The Never-Before-Told Story of Flo Health: Scaling to $1BN Valuation, 75M Users & Getting 100s of No's From Investors Along the Way with Dmitry Gurski

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And finally, a company is nothing without its people, a global law firm built around startups and venture capital. Since forming the first venture fund in Silicon Valley, Cooley has formed more venture capital funds than any other law firm in the world, with 60 plus years working with VCs.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: From Potato Farm to $200M in Revenue: The Never-Before-Told Story of Flo Health: Scaling to $1BN Valuation, 75M Users & Getting 100s of No's From Investors Along the Way with Dmitry Gurski

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They help VCs form and manage funds, make investments, and handle the myriad issues that arise through a fund's lifetime. We use them at 20 VC and have loved working with their teams in the US, London and Asia over the last few years.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: From Potato Farm to $200M in Revenue: The Never-Before-Told Story of Flo Health: Scaling to $1BN Valuation, 75M Users & Getting 100s of No's From Investors Along the Way with Dmitry Gurski

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So to learn more about the number one most active law firm representing VC-backed companies going public, head over to cooley.com and also cooleygo.com, Cooley's award-winning free legal resource for entrepreneurs. As always, I so appreciate all your support and stay tuned for an incredible episode coming this Wednesday.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: From Potato Farm to $200M in Revenue: The Never-Before-Told Story of Flo Health: Scaling to $1BN Valuation, 75M Users & Getting 100s of No's From Investors Along the Way with Dmitry Gurski

536.464

Well, I mean, Flow was the third app that you did. You did two before Flow. What did you learn from the two before Flow not working that you took with you to Flow?

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20VC: From Potato Farm to $200M in Revenue: The Never-Before-Told Story of Flo Health: Scaling to $1BN Valuation, 75M Users & Getting 100s of No's From Investors Along the Way with Dmitry Gurski

56.102

That's the case for our guest today, Dimitri Gursky, founder of Flow Health, the leading women's health app and the first European femtech unicorn, launched in 2015. Flow has grown to 70 million monthly active users and 5 million paid subscribers with an ARR of over $200 million. The app is recognized as the number one recommended tool for period and cycle tracking.

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20VC: From Potato Farm to $200M in Revenue: The Never-Before-Told Story of Flo Health: Scaling to $1BN Valuation, 75M Users & Getting 100s of No's From Investors Along the Way with Dmitry Gurski

660.109

When we look at Flow, you break many rules. We're often told when it comes to an idea, choose a problem that you've personally felt and can really empathize with. With respect, Dmitry, you're wonderful, but, you know, you don't empathize with period tracking. Is that bad advice to choose a problem that you know?

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20VC: From Potato Farm to $200M in Revenue: The Never-Before-Told Story of Flo Health: Scaling to $1BN Valuation, 75M Users & Getting 100s of No's From Investors Along the Way with Dmitry Gurski

79.554

And what I love most, Dimitri, the founder, started life picking mushrooms. This is such an incredible story and shows like this make me so grateful to do what I do. But before we dive in, when a promising startup files for an IPO or a venture capital firm loses its marquee partner, being the first to know gives you an advantage and time to plan your strategic response.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: From Potato Farm to $200M in Revenue: The Never-Before-Told Story of Flo Health: Scaling to $1BN Valuation, 75M Users & Getting 100s of No's From Investors Along the Way with Dmitry Gurski

817.111

How do you think about the Henry Ford quote, which is, if I listen to my customers, I'd build a faster horse?

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20VC: From Potato Farm to $200M in Revenue: The Never-Before-Told Story of Flo Health: Scaling to $1BN Valuation, 75M Users & Getting 100s of No's From Investors Along the Way with Dmitry Gurski

961.437

So I'm an investor, and we chatted before about some of your views on VCs, which was entertaining. I don't like competitive markets, Dimitri, because I think it's very hard to stand out. I think your customer acquisition costs are high, your churn is high, product marketing is difficult, and I find them challenging to invest in. What would you say to me with that mindset?

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20VC: Kleiner Perkins' Mamoon Hamid on Investing Lessons from Leading Rounds in Figma, Slack and Rippling | Lessons Building a Generational Defining Firm with Kleiner Perkins | AI: Where Value Accrues, Startups vs Incumbents & Scaling Laws

1026.045

Is there really a great business to be had in the LLM layer? When you look at the price dumping that's occurring right now, it relatively, and the commoditization that we're seeing occurring, you know, you get people like Sarah Tanville, who we love, is like the fastest depreciating asset in history. Every week is like, Anthropic is better than OpenAI. Now, yeah, OpenAI is better than Anthropic.

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And Brex combined the best things about checking, treasury and FDIC insurance in one powerhouse account. You can send and receive money worldwide at lightning speed. You can get 20x the standard FDIC protection through program banks. And you can earn industry-leading yield from your first dollar while still being able to access your funds anytime. Brex is a top choice for startups.

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1144.734

David Kahn at Sequoia wrote this article, the $600 billion AI question, pointing out the chasm, as you know, between, bluntly, the costs and the capex, and then the revenues that are incredibly lagging from AI companies, and essentially being the $600 billion question of AI. Do you share his concern with that, or do you have a different view?

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20VC: Kleiner Perkins' Mamoon Hamid on Investing Lessons from Leading Rounds in Figma, Slack and Rippling | Lessons Building a Generational Defining Firm with Kleiner Perkins | AI: Where Value Accrues, Startups vs Incumbents & Scaling Laws

1231.852

Listen, when we spoke before, you said to me that the nature of the landscape is changing so fast and it's kind of all the same but different in terms of the venture landscape.

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1285.009

When we look at the venture landscape, you have like, in my mind, boutiques, USV benchmark boutique, and you have like capital accumulators, which is Tiger, Co2, Andreessen, General Capitalist, Lightspeed, Sequoia now. Where does Kleiner sit in that? Because you kind of sat in the middle in my mind.

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133.081

In fact, it's used by one in every three startups in the U.S., To join them, visit brex.com slash startups. And finally, let's talk about Squarespace. Squarespace is the all-in-one website platform for entrepreneurs to stand out and succeed online.

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1342.833

What have been your biggest lessons? I suck at doing reserves. I think it's a very hard thing to get good at. Please give me your wisdom. What have been your biggest lessons in how to do reserves management and concentration of capital well?

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1433.155

Have you ever had a pay-to-play turnaround? I said this the other day to an investor and they said, okay, I bet you, if you never participate, you will do better off. You have? Wow. That's good to hear.

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147.847

Whether you're just starting out or managing a growing brand, Squarespace makes it easy to create a beautiful website, engage with your audience, and sell anything from products to content, all in one place, all on your terms. What's blown me away is the Squarespace Blueprint AI and SEO tools.

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1471.379

So I mean this respectfully. Yeah. When Warren Buffett, Charlie Munger would say, you know, Mr. Market, don't try and be smart on the market. Yeah. When the market is giving you signal like that, why do you do it? And how do you get comfortable doing that when the market is giving you such?

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1535.963

What are the biggest reasons breakout companies plateau in your mind? You've seen some absolute monsters and you mentioned that Box struggled in those times. What are the reasons why breakouts plateau?

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1562.948

A liquidity event is always welcomed by LPs and investors. How do you think about when's the right time to sell? It's the age old thing. You look at all of, you know, Bessemer's memos. You always underestimate the size of your winners. How do you think about when to sell?

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163.572

It's like crafting your site with a guided system, ensuring it not only reflects your unique style, but also ranks well on search engines. Plus, their flexible payment options cater to every customer's needs, making transactions smooth and hassle-free. And the Squarespace AI? It's a content wizard helping you whip up text that truly resonates with your brand voice.

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1650.359

Also, you don't have the challenge when it's acquired of like, do I hold, do I distribute, do I not? And that awful choice, it's almost easier when the choice is removed. Do you know what I mean?

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20VC: Kleiner Perkins' Mamoon Hamid on Investing Lessons from Leading Rounds in Figma, Slack and Rippling | Lessons Building a Generational Defining Firm with Kleiner Perkins | AI: Where Value Accrues, Startups vs Incumbents & Scaling Laws

1778.434

But liquidity is tough. And liquidity is tough because M&A is not what it used to be. Mamoun, are M&A markets dead?

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20VC: Kleiner Perkins' Mamoon Hamid on Investing Lessons from Leading Rounds in Figma, Slack and Rippling | Lessons Building a Generational Defining Firm with Kleiner Perkins | AI: Where Value Accrues, Startups vs Incumbents & Scaling Laws

182.979

So if you're ready to get started, head to squarespace.com for a free trial. And when you're ready to launch, go to squarespace.com slash 20VC to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain. And finally, before we dive into the show, I want to recommend a book, The Road to Reinvention, a New York Times bestseller on mastering change. No time to read?

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20VC: Kleiner Perkins' Mamoon Hamid on Investing Lessons from Leading Rounds in Figma, Slack and Rippling | Lessons Building a Generational Defining Firm with Kleiner Perkins | AI: Where Value Accrues, Startups vs Incumbents & Scaling Laws

1821.537

Well, I think the thing that you are seeing is actually like incredibly high priced companies. Yeah. I'm not going to name names because they are too high priced, but they are actually acquiring much smaller companies in only stock deals. And, you know, I've had quite a few deals back where, you know, I'm getting like shares at $10 billion in this company. I'm like, well, it's worth two.

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1839.273

And that is the kind of acquisition currency that they're going for. And they're small enough that regulatory wise, they're not getting any done. That's the only thing I'm seeing.

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20VC: Kleiner Perkins' Mamoon Hamid on Investing Lessons from Leading Rounds in Figma, Slack and Rippling | Lessons Building a Generational Defining Firm with Kleiner Perkins | AI: Where Value Accrues, Startups vs Incumbents & Scaling Laws

1861.155

Yeah, is it? I mean, being blunt, is it like, hey, Lena Kong gets replaced and then we get right M&A back?

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20VC: Kleiner Perkins' Mamoon Hamid on Investing Lessons from Leading Rounds in Figma, Slack and Rippling | Lessons Building a Generational Defining Firm with Kleiner Perkins | AI: Where Value Accrues, Startups vs Incumbents & Scaling Laws

1880.588

IPO markets are also, like, bluntly not easy. Cerebrus, I think I'm pronouncing it right. Yeah, I think Cerebrus. Cerebrus, there we go. Filed recently. But that's kind of been it recently. Are you concerned by IPO markets being closed?

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20VC: Kleiner Perkins' Mamoon Hamid on Investing Lessons from Leading Rounds in Figma, Slack and Rippling | Lessons Building a Generational Defining Firm with Kleiner Perkins | AI: Where Value Accrues, Startups vs Incumbents & Scaling Laws

1909.328

You do? I do. I think we need to see one of the big ones go out for it to open. It needs to be a Databricks, a Stripe, a Starlink. You're not going to make it on Cerebrus.

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20VC: Kleiner Perkins' Mamoon Hamid on Investing Lessons from Leading Rounds in Figma, Slack and Rippling | Lessons Building a Generational Defining Firm with Kleiner Perkins | AI: Where Value Accrues, Startups vs Incumbents & Scaling Laws

1922.517

You mentioned the $100 million thing around, for example. I spoke to quite a few of our mutual friends and they said, you've got to ask him about this. Respectfully to Dylan and team, this was pre any revenue scaling, really. This was pre any real inflection point in the company. Cash had been in before. Greylock were in already. Index were in already.

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20VC: Kleiner Perkins' Mamoon Hamid on Investing Lessons from Leading Rounds in Figma, Slack and Rippling | Lessons Building a Generational Defining Firm with Kleiner Perkins | AI: Where Value Accrues, Startups vs Incumbents & Scaling Laws

204.545

Listen to 20VC now, then download the Blinkist app to fit key reads into your schedule. With Blinkist, you can grasp the core ideas of over 7,500 non-fiction books and podcasts in just 15 minutes, covering psychology, marketing, business, and more. It's no surprise eight Blinkist users see themselves as self-optimizers, and 65% say it's essential for business and career growth.

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20VC: Kleiner Perkins' Mamoon Hamid on Investing Lessons from Leading Rounds in Figma, Slack and Rippling | Lessons Building a Generational Defining Firm with Kleiner Perkins | AI: Where Value Accrues, Startups vs Incumbents & Scaling Laws

2067.648

You mentioned Envision, you mentioned Sketch. Envision was bigger than Sketch for quite a while, actually. Both Sketch and Envision were way bigger than Figma for a while. And a lot of investors were like, this market's competitive. Do you like competitive markets and say, yes, it's competitive because that's where there's enterprise value?

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20VC: Kleiner Perkins' Mamoon Hamid on Investing Lessons from Leading Rounds in Figma, Slack and Rippling | Lessons Building a Generational Defining Firm with Kleiner Perkins | AI: Where Value Accrues, Startups vs Incumbents & Scaling Laws

2084.282

Or do you actually prefer my mindset, which is I don't want to be one of 10 going after this?

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20VC: Kleiner Perkins' Mamoon Hamid on Investing Lessons from Leading Rounds in Figma, Slack and Rippling | Lessons Building a Generational Defining Firm with Kleiner Perkins | AI: Where Value Accrues, Startups vs Incumbents & Scaling Laws

2108.951

I spoke to Owen, another one of your founders before, who I love. Intercom's a great story, but he said that you definitely have a type. You have... It's young and it's not where you're going. It's product oriented. And he said it's very much deeper than that. Unpack that with him. So when you think about your founder type, I know we say we don't have one and we have everything. Probably not true.

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2214.077

Are you okay paying a premium for the experience? I'm doing a seed now at Mamoon and I so appreciate you being our PM, my funds. Price is slightly up. It's like a 40 million for a pre-seed, pre-product, pre-anything. Yeah. The founders are unbelievable from one of the best companies in the world and exceptional and paying a premium for experience. Right. You're always happy to do that.

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228.556

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2311.27

A lot of times founders are told, listen, your job is to raise as much money as possible at the highest price. Yeah. Agree or disagree? Disagree.

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2323.204

I also think, bluntly, it can damage you incredibly for the next round. When you don't actually scale into it and suddenly you have to do a bridge or whatever it is, it makes it so much harder when you've got a hugely high watermark that you have to fill.

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2367.626

So will you back a really great founder if they're in a shit market? Probably not. Yeah. That's interesting. Yeah. Because like for me, it's like I'm precedency generally speaking. We use series as well. But like generally precedency. I'm like, you know what? Great founders find their way to great markets. And if they're truly great, honestly, they'll pivot. They'll change. They'll make their way.

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20VC: Kleiner Perkins' Mamoon Hamid on Investing Lessons from Leading Rounds in Figma, Slack and Rippling | Lessons Building a Generational Defining Firm with Kleiner Perkins | AI: Where Value Accrues, Startups vs Incumbents & Scaling Laws

2435.229

Do you think that's the wrong mindset to approach it with? A lot of investors do approach it on a revenue multiple basis.

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20VC: Kleiner Perkins' Mamoon Hamid on Investing Lessons from Leading Rounds in Figma, Slack and Rippling | Lessons Building a Generational Defining Firm with Kleiner Perkins | AI: Where Value Accrues, Startups vs Incumbents & Scaling Laws

2483.111

A lot of big firms say, we built out these amazing data platforms and that's why we're operating off this proprietary information.

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2503.337

Yeah, no, I think... It's what I tell a lot of LPs, though, which is like, you know, I remember speaking to an LP actually about you. And I was like, the thing that you've got to understand with Mamoon is like, everyone in the Valley respectfully probably sees the same deals. But you have to be aspirational capital to the best founders in the world where they say, yeah, I've got 12 term sheets, but

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2519.522

I want for that one. And that's the only thing that matters. It doesn't matter that you saw it.

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2544.199

How do you think about decision-making? One of the things I think is crazy is voting structures in venture firms. I get asked this by a lot of LPs, which is like, what is your voting structure? And they kind of seem quite upset when I say, well, there's only four of us and so anyone can write a check. And I believe that the best deals are often non-consensus and right.

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255.45

Mamoun, I am so excited for this, man. I can't believe it. You just reminded me that Sasta nine years ago was our first show. Thank you so much for joining me today. Thank you so much, Harry, for having me. It's so great to be here. Listen, I wanted to start. I started an LP update the other day that I did with, it is the most exciting time to be in venture.

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2560.471

So we don't have like four out of 10 or six out of 10. They look quite upset with me when I say this. I think that's nuts. How do you feel about voting structures in decision-making?

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2625.55

I do not see the market. I don't see the upside. The entry price is too high. If you wanted to veto me, you could veto me.

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2738.667

You had a fund that I can't remember the exact vintage, and it was a fast deployment. It was like 12 or 18 months. It was a time when everyone was deploying fast, but it was fast. How do you think about deployment pace? Is it a play the game on the field or do you take a much more structured discipline view towards it?

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2815.37

Very dear mutual friend of both of ours is Kirsch. Kirsch and Thrive think that bluntly everyone has the plasticity to move between stages in their firm. I don't think everyone, but their investors do. I think that is just really hard to do.

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2864.359

You said about kind of putting your name on the line and really believing. When have you put your name on the line most and been wrong?

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2980.941

I heard that you are such a dreamer that sometimes you believe for too long and you should cut things before. Yeah. How do you think about knowing when is the right time to cut the belief and actually we've had enough time?

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3002.208

Do you believe in VC value, Admamun? Vinod Kose has famously said, you know, 90% of VC is actually just trying to find you.

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306.013

yeah the world's not going to be the same anymore the thing that's seismically different for me when i look at the two and i don't mean to age you i was four in that kind of period we didn't have the incumbent spending a hundred billion dollars on frontier models larry allison said the other day it's gonna be a hundred billion dollars to enter the frontier model race and you're looking at that going christ that is a different level of incumbent spend than we've ever seen before how do we think about that as it is a fundamentally different edition

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3067.353

Do you mind super dilutive businesses like your DoorDash? I know Uber and DoorDash have different cash profiles intensely, but still, do you mind them?

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20VC: Kleiner Perkins' Mamoon Hamid on Investing Lessons from Leading Rounds in Figma, Slack and Rippling | Lessons Building a Generational Defining Firm with Kleiner Perkins | AI: Where Value Accrues, Startups vs Incumbents & Scaling Laws

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What would you like climate to look like in 10 years? When I hear you there, it feels like actually there is scope for you to go into the capital accumulator bucket.

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20VC: Kleiner Perkins' Mamoon Hamid on Investing Lessons from Leading Rounds in Figma, Slack and Rippling | Lessons Building a Generational Defining Firm with Kleiner Perkins | AI: Where Value Accrues, Startups vs Incumbents & Scaling Laws

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We share the love of venture and we share the kind of love of the boutique-y nature of venture. I want to move into a quick fire. What do you believe that most around you disbelieve?

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20VC: Kleiner Perkins' Mamoon Hamid on Investing Lessons from Leading Rounds in Figma, Slack and Rippling | Lessons Building a Generational Defining Firm with Kleiner Perkins | AI: Where Value Accrues, Startups vs Incumbents & Scaling Laws

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My favorite is the amount of friends I have who are operators who are like, this isn't what it said on the tin. This is so fucking hard. Totally. And you're like, yeah. I totally agree with you there. What's the most memorable first founder meeting you've had?

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The public market revenue multiples need to reflect for venture to be a sustainable business. You mentioned Box there.

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20VC: Kleiner Perkins' Mamoon Hamid on Investing Lessons from Leading Rounds in Figma, Slack and Rippling | Lessons Building a Generational Defining Firm with Kleiner Perkins | AI: Where Value Accrues, Startups vs Incumbents & Scaling Laws

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You can be CEO for a day, Mamoun, of any company. Which company are you CEO of? Easy, OpenAI. I just want to see what's going on. I just want to see how far AGI really is. What concerns you most in the world? You can be CEO for a day, Mamoun, of any company. Which company are you CEO of? Easy. OpenAI.

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This is so unfair of me, but fuck it. I've got you, I can. You can invest in a seed firm, a series A firm, and a growth firm purely on multiples basis. Who do you invest in?

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I was like, he's going to give me a new one here. Come on, hit me. I can tell you mine. You tell me yours first. Well, I mean, like one on the seed, I'd do Gili Ronan at CyberStarts in Israel. Okay. If you want a pure seed play.

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Unbelievable. It would either be Kleiner or it would either be Benchmark because of the smaller fund size. And then growth, it would have to be either Pat or Kush. I totally agree. Penultimate one, what do you know now that you wish you'd known when you joined USVP 19 years ago?

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20VC: Kleiner Perkins' Mamoon Hamid on Investing Lessons from Leading Rounds in Figma, Slack and Rippling | Lessons Building a Generational Defining Firm with Kleiner Perkins | AI: Where Value Accrues, Startups vs Incumbents & Scaling Laws

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My deep faith lies in liquidity. That's the most like capitalist way to finish the conversation. I mean, I've loved doing this. Thank you so much for joining me. And this has been so special. Amazing. Thank you so much, Harry. My word, that was so much fun to do. As I said, I met Mamoun at a SASTA conference in 2016.

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20VC: Kleiner Perkins' Mamoon Hamid on Investing Lessons from Leading Rounds in Figma, Slack and Rippling | Lessons Building a Generational Defining Firm with Kleiner Perkins | AI: Where Value Accrues, Startups vs Incumbents & Scaling Laws

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He's been a dear friend and a mentor ever since, and that was so special to do in person. You can watch the full interview on YouTube by searching for 20VC, that's 20VC. But before we leave you today, this episode is presented by Brex, the financial stack founders can bank on.

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Does that make it harder for us as venture investors with the rise of corporate investors who maybe have different motives or different incentive structures? Does that make it harder for us?

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20VC: Kleiner Perkins' Mamoon Hamid on Investing Lessons from Leading Rounds in Figma, Slack and Rippling | Lessons Building a Generational Defining Firm with Kleiner Perkins | AI: Where Value Accrues, Startups vs Incumbents & Scaling Laws

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Whether you're just starting out or managing a growing brand, Squarespace makes it easy to create a beautiful website, engage with your audience, and sell anything from products to content, all in one place, all on your terms. What's blown me away is the Squarespace Blueprint AI and SEO tools.

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20VC: Kleiner Perkins' Mamoon Hamid on Investing Lessons from Leading Rounds in Figma, Slack and Rippling | Lessons Building a Generational Defining Firm with Kleiner Perkins | AI: Where Value Accrues, Startups vs Incumbents & Scaling Laws

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20VC: Kleiner Perkins' Mamoon Hamid on Investing Lessons from Leading Rounds in Figma, Slack and Rippling | Lessons Building a Generational Defining Firm with Kleiner Perkins | AI: Where Value Accrues, Startups vs Incumbents & Scaling Laws

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So if you're ready to get started, head to squarespace.com for a free trial. And when you're ready to launch, go to squarespace.com slash 20VC to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain. And finally, before we dive into the show, I want to recommend a book, The Road to Reinvention, a New York Times bestseller on mastering change. No time to read?

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As always, I so appreciate all your support and stay tuned for a very special episode on Wednesday with a brand new firm. Three partners introducing what will be an incredible new Series A firm.

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20VC: Kleiner Perkins' Mamoon Hamid on Investing Lessons from Leading Rounds in Figma, Slack and Rippling | Lessons Building a Generational Defining Firm with Kleiner Perkins | AI: Where Value Accrues, Startups vs Incumbents & Scaling Laws

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I hate kind of broad and generous questions because they're generally for crap interviewers. But as I said, I've done 2,700, so hopefully I have some skills. But when you think about kind of the AI landscape today, how do you think about where the most value will accrue and you want to concentrate most of your time and capital?

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This is 20VC with me, Harry Stebbings, and today we are joined by one of the greatest venture investors of our time, Mahmoud Hamid, general partner at Kleiner Perkins. I will tell you why he's the best. He is able to consistently see greatness at moments in a company's lifetime when it is not clear. He did Figma when it had almost no revenue at a $100 million valuation.

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I completely understand that rationale. My question to you when I look at those is fantastic. Trouble is, there's 10 alternatives going off to every category. Yeah. How do you think about differentiation in this world when there are 10 transcribers note-taking apps for doctors?

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It's really interesting. You said that it's very much like investing of old, really backing incredible teams in the right markets, building incredible products. So many people said, listen, Mamuna is one of the greatest investors of the last decade. When we look at some of the picks from Rippling to Figma, the list goes on. It's insane. Is AI investing different to traditional SaaS investing?

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It's also challenging from a pricing perspective. I saw three companies, Mamoun, last week that raised it over $750 million pre-product. How do you think about navigating the pricing environment when there is such further pitch excitement for these companies?

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My question is then, how do you think about breaking the rules and letting the one that got away not become the norm?

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Have we ever seen revenue scaling like this either? I'm brought up in the days of like 18 months, 10 million ARR was amazing. This was like the gold standard. And now we're in 11x, which is insane revenue scaling. And you're seeing this across the board. How do you think about determining sugar high revenues, unsustainable but very fast, versus sustainable value creating?

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20VC: Kleiner Perkins' Mamoon Hamid on Investing Lessons from Leading Rounds in Figma, Slack and Rippling | Lessons Building a Generational Defining Firm with Kleiner Perkins | AI: Where Value Accrues, Startups vs Incumbents & Scaling Laws

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Similarly, he did Slack when it had almost no revenue at a $250 million valuation. The company ultimately sold for $27 billion. He also did Rippling pre-inflection point. The man is a master picker. He's also been a dear friend. I met him at SASTA nine years ago, and he's been a mentor to me ever since. This was such a special show to do.

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20VC: Kleiner Perkins' Mamoon Hamid on Investing Lessons from Leading Rounds in Figma, Slack and Rippling | Lessons Building a Generational Defining Firm with Kleiner Perkins | AI: Where Value Accrues, Startups vs Incumbents & Scaling Laws

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You've seen companies like, we said about kind of replacing labor there. We've seen companies like Klarna say, you know, we're going to replace Salesforce and Workday in that specific case. And we're going to build it with, you know, our own AI tooling. To what extent do you think we'll see the next generation of companies build their own custom tooling and replace existing SaaS solutions?

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20VC: Kleiner Perkins' Mamoon Hamid on Investing Lessons from Leading Rounds in Figma, Slack and Rippling | Lessons Building a Generational Defining Firm with Kleiner Perkins | AI: Where Value Accrues, Startups vs Incumbents & Scaling Laws

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What today do we do or not do that in 10 years time we will look back and go, that's crazy. So some examples is you would never put your credit card on the internet, one. Two, you would never find your partner on the internet.

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20VC: Kleiner Perkins' Mamoon Hamid on Investing Lessons from Leading Rounds in Figma, Slack and Rippling | Lessons Building a Generational Defining Firm with Kleiner Perkins | AI: Where Value Accrues, Startups vs Incumbents & Scaling Laws

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It's when you're waiting on insurance lines and it's like, please hold. And like 30 minutes later, it's like, they put the phone down on you like, what?

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But before we dive in, this episode is presented by Brex, the financial stack founders can bank on. Brex knows that nearly 40% of startups fail because they run out of cash, so they built a banking experience that takes every dollar further. It's a stark difference from traditional banking options that leave your cash sitting idle while chipping away at it with fees. To help you protect your cash,

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I was deeply offended. I love the balls though to have the professionalization of like hold music. Where do you think a lot of people are spending time today in the investing world that you don't understand or don't think they should be?

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I do have to ask, you know, when we look at a lot of potential use cases, a lot could be subsumed by the foundational model companies if they are big enough. An example could be talking translators, talking avatars that you could talk to in a friendly enough way.

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How do you do you worry about application layer companies being potentially subsumed by foundation model layer if they are such a core competency?

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In addition to must-read journalism in your inbox every day, you'll engage with fellow leaders in their active discussions or in person at exclusive events. Learn more and access a special offer for 20VCs listeners at www.theinformation.com slash deals slash 20VC. And speaking of incredible products that allows your team to do more, we need to talk about SecureFrame.

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What do you get wrong in market dynamics? Misunderstanding competition, misunderstanding timing, what elements there?

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If you unpack that, what do you take away from that? Like, what's the subsequent lesson for you there? Don't come to such quick conclusions. How do you change your mindset as a result of that realization?

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When you think about founders, you mentioned that kind of one, so you missed. Are there any that you believed in that you were wrong about? You don't need to name them, obviously, because that's very harsh to say. But what did you get wrong when you saw something that later turned out to not be true?

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We mentioned this company that I'm looking at doing whatever the check size is now, and I'll just leave it there because the founder will kill me if I mention it, and he'll know. It will be an incredibly dilutive company along the way. It will need a lot of cash, and that is a consideration.

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20VC: Index's Shardul Shah on Why Market Size is a Trap | Biggest Lessons on Pricing from Leading Rounds in Wiz & Datadog | Why Benchmarks & Averages in VC are BS | How Index Makes Decisions and Why Growth & Early are the Same Investing Style

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How do you think about capital requirements over time, capital intensity, potential future dilution when investing, or do you not think about that?

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20VC: Index's Shardul Shah on Why Market Size is a Trap | Biggest Lessons on Pricing from Leading Rounds in Wiz & Datadog | Why Benchmarks & Averages in VC are BS | How Index Makes Decisions and Why Growth & Early are the Same Investing Style

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So I spoke to 12 people who've either invested, like invest with you today or like have invested with you in the past. And nine of them said I had to talk to you about conviction building. Just nine? Yeah, just nine. What are the other three talking about? They said you're incredibly difficult to work with generally, always struggle to put the microphone in the frame, just challenging all over.

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But I thought it was really interesting. They said you have to ask about the conviction building process. I did want to discuss that on the theme of, hey, you have multiple different funds, and so you can concentrate capital over time. You can. Got to have some big conviction to continuously double down and double down and double down.

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Does the upside requirements change with each stage? And what I mean by that is, you know, when you are a seed or series, that's like, Hey, I need this to be a fun return. And when you get to growth, does it change to be like, we'd like to see a three to five X pathway. How do you think about that? Like upside requirements as it changes across stage?

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I had Sam on the show from Greylock, and he said that when you look at Series B and C pricing today, combined with the revenue multiple compression that we're seeing with public markets pricing, Series B and C will just be a terrible performing asset class for this vintage. Do you agree with that, or do you have a different perspective?

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But if you're seeing series B average entry prices go up by 30, 40, 50, 60% for the best, and then you're seeing compression in terms of public market pricing, even for the best, it is a worse asset class to be in, correct?

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What's the hardest thing for you when you think about doubling down on winners? When you look at, say, a Wiz or a Datadog, can you just talk to me about, break one down, let's do Wiz. What gave you the conviction with Wiz to continuously put in more and more money?

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How do you think about finding the truth together? I know it's kind of a weird tangent, but I think about this a lot now as we build our team and have the same discussions. I want to have vigorous debate and have passionate discussion about these elements, but I also don't ever want to put someone off with the forcefulness of a discussion or with just the kind of vigor of discourse.

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20VC: Index's Shardul Shah on Why Market Size is a Trap | Biggest Lessons on Pricing from Leading Rounds in Wiz & Datadog | Why Benchmarks & Averages in VC are BS | How Index Makes Decisions and Why Growth & Early are the Same Investing Style

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It really is a must. And finally, a company is nothing without its people, and so I want to talk about Cooley, the global law firm built around startups and venture capital. Since forming the first venture fund in Silicon Valley, Cooley has formed more venture capital funds than any other law firm in the world, with 60 plus years working with VCs.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Index's Shardul Shah on Why Market Size is a Trap | Biggest Lessons on Pricing from Leading Rounds in Wiz & Datadog | Why Benchmarks & Averages in VC are BS | How Index Makes Decisions and Why Growth & Early are the Same Investing Style

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What are the biggest things that gets lost and gets gained when doing decision-making virtually as well? You have an amazing team in London and in Europe, but then you also make decisions in the US. And I know that you have joint meetings together, obviously, for investment committees. What are the things that get better doing that?

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Index's Shardul Shah on Why Market Size is a Trap | Biggest Lessons on Pricing from Leading Rounds in Wiz & Datadog | Why Benchmarks & Averages in VC are BS | How Index Makes Decisions and Why Growth & Early are the Same Investing Style

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Can I ask you, going back to the kind of conviction building element, what comes to mind and how did you change as an investor on the back of it?

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Index's Shardul Shah on Why Market Size is a Trap | Biggest Lessons on Pricing from Leading Rounds in Wiz & Datadog | Why Benchmarks & Averages in VC are BS | How Index Makes Decisions and Why Growth & Early are the Same Investing Style

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They help VCs form and manage funds, make investments, and handle the myriad issues that arise through a fund's lifetime. We use them at 20 VC and have loved working with their teams in the US, London and Asia over the last few years.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Index's Shardul Shah on Why Market Size is a Trap | Biggest Lessons on Pricing from Leading Rounds in Wiz & Datadog | Why Benchmarks & Averages in VC are BS | How Index Makes Decisions and Why Growth & Early are the Same Investing Style

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Do you agree with signaling being a challenge for founders when working with multistage funds? Obviously, we've talked about kind of concentrating capital and winners over time. Do you agree that signaling is something that founders have to be careful around messaging on?

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Index's Shardul Shah on Why Market Size is a Trap | Biggest Lessons on Pricing from Leading Rounds in Wiz & Datadog | Why Benchmarks & Averages in VC are BS | How Index Makes Decisions and Why Growth & Early are the Same Investing Style

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And I completely agree with that perspective. But how do you think about making ownerships work then with those three different sleeves? If you think about index, what do you need? When you're thinking about your initial sleeve, what is that in terms of what you need?

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Index's Shardul Shah on Why Market Size is a Trap | Biggest Lessons on Pricing from Leading Rounds in Wiz & Datadog | Why Benchmarks & Averages in VC are BS | How Index Makes Decisions and Why Growth & Early are the Same Investing Style

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So to learn more about the number one most active law firm representing VC-backed companies going public, head over to cooley.com and also cooleygo.com, Cooley's award-winning free legal resource for entrepreneurs. You have now arrived at your destination. Shardul, dude, it has been so long since we did our last chat. I have aged incessantly, but thank you so much for joining me today, my friend.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Index's Shardul Shah on Why Market Size is a Trap | Biggest Lessons on Pricing from Leading Rounds in Wiz & Datadog | Why Benchmarks & Averages in VC are BS | How Index Makes Decisions and Why Growth & Early are the Same Investing Style

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Do you have any big piece of advice to founders on how to construct the best angel? an operator segment of that sleeve in terms of like lots of people, small checks, fewer people, bigger checks, filling specific roles, any lessons on mistakes that often is made when filling out that angel slash operator allocation?

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Index's Shardul Shah on Why Market Size is a Trap | Biggest Lessons on Pricing from Leading Rounds in Wiz & Datadog | Why Benchmarks & Averages in VC are BS | How Index Makes Decisions and Why Growth & Early are the Same Investing Style

2080.121

I totally agree. I say don't have minimums because some people can be amazingly helpful with 5K. And so don't rule them out because of that. Because when you look across the different spectrum of venture, you know, we mentioned sourcing. We mentioned selecting. There's securing and there's servicing.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Index's Shardul Shah on Why Market Size is a Trap | Biggest Lessons on Pricing from Leading Rounds in Wiz & Datadog | Why Benchmarks & Averages in VC are BS | How Index Makes Decisions and Why Growth & Early are the Same Investing Style

2095.773

I could be a McKinsey consultant if we have four S's, which is essentially securing, selecting, securing and servicing.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Index's Shardul Shah on Why Market Size is a Trap | Biggest Lessons on Pricing from Leading Rounds in Wiz & Datadog | Why Benchmarks & Averages in VC are BS | How Index Makes Decisions and Why Growth & Early are the Same Investing Style

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Do you think that the best founders need a VC? We've had many, Brian Singerman from Founders Fund on, and they both said literally the best founders do not need VCs, period.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Index's Shardul Shah on Why Market Size is a Trap | Biggest Lessons on Pricing from Leading Rounds in Wiz & Datadog | Why Benchmarks & Averages in VC are BS | How Index Makes Decisions and Why Growth & Early are the Same Investing Style

2191.519

What have you learned about what it takes to be the best board member? Again, I use the show as a pure learning mechanism for me. I want to be the best board member. I acknowledge it's early in my career. What do you know now about what it takes that you'd share with me?

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Index's Shardul Shah on Why Market Size is a Trap | Biggest Lessons on Pricing from Leading Rounds in Wiz & Datadog | Why Benchmarks & Averages in VC are BS | How Index Makes Decisions and Why Growth & Early are the Same Investing Style

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After 2,700 shows, I've learned that one of the biggest mistakes people make is they try and copy someone's style. Totally. That's not authentically theirs and think that's the right one. And actually it's about finding where you are uniquely great in the three pillars of venture, sourcing, selecting, and servicing, and really leaning into one over others. Actually, that's been my biggest lesson.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Index's Shardul Shah on Why Market Size is a Trap | Biggest Lessons on Pricing from Leading Rounds in Wiz & Datadog | Why Benchmarks & Averages in VC are BS | How Index Makes Decisions and Why Growth & Early are the Same Investing Style

2425.588

They can. I think it's Vinod Khosa who says that 90% of investors are net negative, which is... Potentially slightly damning. You mentioned there about liquidity situations. How do you think about when's the right time to sell? I think one of my biggest regrets in the last few years is not taking cash off the table when I could have done.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Index's Shardul Shah on Why Market Size is a Trap | Biggest Lessons on Pricing from Leading Rounds in Wiz & Datadog | Why Benchmarks & Averages in VC are BS | How Index Makes Decisions and Why Growth & Early are the Same Investing Style

2444.264

When you think about lessons that you have, how do you think about when's the right time to sell?

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Index's Shardul Shah on Why Market Size is a Trap | Biggest Lessons on Pricing from Leading Rounds in Wiz & Datadog | Why Benchmarks & Averages in VC are BS | How Index Makes Decisions and Why Growth & Early are the Same Investing Style

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Is there a situation which comes to mind when I think about not selling or selling and it being the wrong decision and it impacting how you think? Have you ever sold and you're like, you know what, we sold way too early and actually I didn't see the next card. I didn't see the next chapter.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Index's Shardul Shah on Why Market Size is a Trap | Biggest Lessons on Pricing from Leading Rounds in Wiz & Datadog | Why Benchmarks & Averages in VC are BS | How Index Makes Decisions and Why Growth & Early are the Same Investing Style

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Do you think you have asymmetric information? And so when companies go public, you have a better handling of their stock than people who do not have that same information? Or do you just want to distribute to LPs and it is theirs from that point on?

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Index's Shardul Shah on Why Market Size is a Trap | Biggest Lessons on Pricing from Leading Rounds in Wiz & Datadog | Why Benchmarks & Averages in VC are BS | How Index Makes Decisions and Why Growth & Early are the Same Investing Style

2605.51

Can I just ask you, in terms of the future of venture, I think about this actually a lot when I look forward over the next 10 years. I think it's dominated by Chanel and Walmart. Chanel is benchmark and USV, constrained fund sizes, very specific ICP, and then you have Walmart, which is walls of cash. It's Andreessen, it's Insight, it's Sequoia, it's Index, like big, big pools of cash.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Index's Shardul Shah on Why Market Size is a Trap | Biggest Lessons on Pricing from Leading Rounds in Wiz & Datadog | Why Benchmarks & Averages in VC are BS | How Index Makes Decisions and Why Growth & Early are the Same Investing Style

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Do you think we're entering into a new era of investing in terms of the assets that we invest in? We obviously see defense becoming ever larger as an investable category. We see general catalysts buying hospitals and healthcare really changing as an investable category. We see a lot more physical infrastructure plays.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Index's Shardul Shah on Why Market Size is a Trap | Biggest Lessons on Pricing from Leading Rounds in Wiz & Datadog | Why Benchmarks & Averages in VC are BS | How Index Makes Decisions and Why Growth & Early are the Same Investing Style

2692.493

Do you think we're seeing a very changing landscape in terms of where we find alpha as venture investors?

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Index's Shardul Shah on Why Market Size is a Trap | Biggest Lessons on Pricing from Leading Rounds in Wiz & Datadog | Why Benchmarks & Averages in VC are BS | How Index Makes Decisions and Why Growth & Early are the Same Investing Style

2725.319

Shadal, I'd love to do a quick fire with you. So Isaiah's short statement, you give me your immediate thoughts. Does that sound okay? Yeah, let's try it. What's the biggest advice for someone who wants to get better at public speaking? I hear that it's something you've been focusing on.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Index's Shardul Shah on Why Market Size is a Trap | Biggest Lessons on Pricing from Leading Rounds in Wiz & Datadog | Why Benchmarks & Averages in VC are BS | How Index Makes Decisions and Why Growth & Early are the Same Investing Style

2768.12

Why so? You were saying this beforehand. What did you see in Martin from this experience with him that you maybe didn't see before being with him virtually?

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Index's Shardul Shah on Why Market Size is a Trap | Biggest Lessons on Pricing from Leading Rounds in Wiz & Datadog | Why Benchmarks & Averages in VC are BS | How Index Makes Decisions and Why Growth & Early are the Same Investing Style

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Do you think that's possible though in venture firms? Like if you are a young person trying to scale the greasy ladder of a venture firm, as much as one might hate to say it, with internal politics like many have, you have to adjust yourself to the firm to be promoted. It's a game of strategic promotion.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Index's Shardul Shah on Why Market Size is a Trap | Biggest Lessons on Pricing from Leading Rounds in Wiz & Datadog | Why Benchmarks & Averages in VC are BS | How Index Makes Decisions and Why Growth & Early are the Same Investing Style

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Shardul, listen, I think it's been like seven or eight years since we did the last one. So I'm going to officially be middle-aged when we do the next one. This has been such a pleasure and thank you for putting up with my prying. You're the best. Thank you, Harry. I have to say, doing shows like that with Shardul is why I love this job so much.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Index's Shardul Shah on Why Market Size is a Trap | Biggest Lessons on Pricing from Leading Rounds in Wiz & Datadog | Why Benchmarks & Averages in VC are BS | How Index Makes Decisions and Why Growth & Early are the Same Investing Style

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You have to remember, I got into venture because the investing art is one that is my true passion. So getting the chance to sit down with Shardul and discuss what we did today, just incredible. If you want to see the episode, then you can watch it on YouTube by searching for 20VC. That's 20VC. But before we leave you today...

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Index's Shardul Shah on Why Market Size is a Trap | Biggest Lessons on Pricing from Leading Rounds in Wiz & Datadog | Why Benchmarks & Averages in VC are BS | How Index Makes Decisions and Why Growth & Early are the Same Investing Style

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When a promising startup files for an IPO or a venture capital firm loses its marquee partner, being the first to know gives you an advantage and time to plan your strategic response. Chances are the information reported it first.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Index's Shardul Shah on Why Market Size is a Trap | Biggest Lessons on Pricing from Leading Rounds in Wiz & Datadog | Why Benchmarks & Averages in VC are BS | How Index Makes Decisions and Why Growth & Early are the Same Investing Style

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The information is the trusted source for that important first look at actionable news across technology and finance, driving decisions with breaking stories, proprietary data tools, and a spotlight on industry trends.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Index's Shardul Shah on Why Market Size is a Trap | Biggest Lessons on Pricing from Leading Rounds in Wiz & Datadog | Why Benchmarks & Averages in VC are BS | How Index Makes Decisions and Why Growth & Early are the Same Investing Style

2904.349

With a subscription, you will join an elite community that includes leaders from the top VC firms, CEOs from Fortune 500 companies, and esteemed banking and investment professionals. In addition to must-read journalism in your inbox every day, you'll engage with fellow leaders in their active discussions or in person at exclusive events.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Index's Shardul Shah on Why Market Size is a Trap | Biggest Lessons on Pricing from Leading Rounds in Wiz & Datadog | Why Benchmarks & Averages in VC are BS | How Index Makes Decisions and Why Growth & Early are the Same Investing Style

2922.406

Learn more and access a special offer for 20 VCs listeners at www.theinformation.com. slash deals slash 20 VC. And speaking of incredible products that allows your team to do more, we need to talk about SecureFrame. SecureFrame provides incredible levels of trust to your customers through automation.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Index's Shardul Shah on Why Market Size is a Trap | Biggest Lessons on Pricing from Leading Rounds in Wiz & Datadog | Why Benchmarks & Averages in VC are BS | How Index Makes Decisions and Why Growth & Early are the Same Investing Style

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The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Index's Shardul Shah on Why Market Size is a Trap | Biggest Lessons on Pricing from Leading Rounds in Wiz & Datadog | Why Benchmarks & Averages in VC are BS | How Index Makes Decisions and Why Growth & Early are the Same Investing Style

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Backed by top-tier investors and corporations such as Google, Kleiner Perkins, the company is among the Forbes list of top 100 startup employers for 2023 and Business Insider's list of the 34 most promising AI startups of 2023. Learn more today at secureframe.com. It really is a must. And finally, a company is nothing without its people, a global law firm built around startups and venture capital.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Index's Shardul Shah on Why Market Size is a Trap | Biggest Lessons on Pricing from Leading Rounds in Wiz & Datadog | Why Benchmarks & Averages in VC are BS | How Index Makes Decisions and Why Growth & Early are the Same Investing Style

2990.989

Since forming the first venture fund in Silicon Valley, Cooley has formed more venture capital funds than any other law firm in the world, with 60 plus years working with VCs. They help VCs form and manage funds, make investments, and handle the myriad issues that arise through a fund's lifetime.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Index's Shardul Shah on Why Market Size is a Trap | Biggest Lessons on Pricing from Leading Rounds in Wiz & Datadog | Why Benchmarks & Averages in VC are BS | How Index Makes Decisions and Why Growth & Early are the Same Investing Style

3007.881

We use them at 20 VC and have loved working with their teams in the US, London and Asia over the last few years. So to learn more about the number one most active law firm representing VC-backed companies going public, head over to cooley.com and also cooleygo.com, Cooley's award-winning free legal resource for entrepreneurs.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Index's Shardul Shah on Why Market Size is a Trap | Biggest Lessons on Pricing from Leading Rounds in Wiz & Datadog | Why Benchmarks & Averages in VC are BS | How Index Makes Decisions and Why Growth & Early are the Same Investing Style

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As always, I so appreciate all your support and stay tuned for an incredible episode coming this Wednesday.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Index's Shardul Shah on Why Market Size is a Trap | Biggest Lessons on Pricing from Leading Rounds in Wiz & Datadog | Why Benchmarks & Averages in VC are BS | How Index Makes Decisions and Why Growth & Early are the Same Investing Style

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This is 20VC with me, Harry Stebbings, and I'm so excited to welcome today one of the best investors of the last 20 years. Few VCs have not one, but two $20 billion plus companies to their name. Shardul Shah, partner at Index Ventures and one of the best cyber investors in the business. Shardul has led rounds in Datadog, Wiz, Coalition, Duo Security, and many more incredible names.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Index's Shardul Shah on Why Market Size is a Trap | Biggest Lessons on Pricing from Leading Rounds in Wiz & Datadog | Why Benchmarks & Averages in VC are BS | How Index Makes Decisions and Why Growth & Early are the Same Investing Style

345.589

So you do not think that actually individuals and people who want to scale in a venture firm should kind of play the game on the field, know where they can get angles to get promoted and focus on that. As I said, like you have to fix problems in firms. If you return the fund, don't worry about it. Sure. But it takes eight to 10 years for them to know. Often there's a messy middle.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Index's Shardul Shah on Why Market Size is a Trap | Biggest Lessons on Pricing from Leading Rounds in Wiz & Datadog | Why Benchmarks & Averages in VC are BS | How Index Makes Decisions and Why Growth & Early are the Same Investing Style

368.432

You were in Figma for years. Figma did not look like a winner. It is not always apparent. And actually often in the early years, you have managing partners with great deal flow or partners with great flow who need assistance. It's about being a plate remover. And so doing the diligence, doing the grunt work in some cases is the strategic move to get promoted.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Index's Shardul Shah on Why Market Size is a Trap | Biggest Lessons on Pricing from Leading Rounds in Wiz & Datadog | Why Benchmarks & Averages in VC are BS | How Index Makes Decisions and Why Growth & Early are the Same Investing Style

446.975

Oh, so many ways, but how I think about building great partnerships, how I think about incentivizing partnerships, how I think about LP management, those would be the biggest. Also, I would really say with Danny, actually for me, focus. Like there is a lot of things that I could do. He always reiterates to me about the importance of keeping the main thing, the main thing.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Index's Shardul Shah on Why Market Size is a Trap | Biggest Lessons on Pricing from Leading Rounds in Wiz & Datadog | Why Benchmarks & Averages in VC are BS | How Index Makes Decisions and Why Growth & Early are the Same Investing Style

497.782

What's your initial filtering on a do I meet them or do I give to another team member? I know it sounds blunt and harsh, but you have a certain number of hours in the day. You have to have leverage with more team members, more junior team members. What's the filtering process between I will meet them versus, you know what, interesting, but I don't have time for it?

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Index's Shardul Shah on Why Market Size is a Trap | Biggest Lessons on Pricing from Leading Rounds in Wiz & Datadog | Why Benchmarks & Averages in VC are BS | How Index Makes Decisions and Why Growth & Early are the Same Investing Style

553.172

Why do you like majors? You specialize in cyber and you said that you don't particularly specialize like vertical SaaS. Can you just unpack your thinking to me around why it's important to have a major in venture? And does that mean the future of venture is specialization?

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Index's Shardul Shah on Why Market Size is a Trap | Biggest Lessons on Pricing from Leading Rounds in Wiz & Datadog | Why Benchmarks & Averages in VC are BS | How Index Makes Decisions and Why Growth & Early are the Same Investing Style

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This is an incredible discussion on investing lessons from the last 16 years at Index. But before we dive in, when a promising startup files for an IPO or a venture capital firm loses its marquee partner, being the first to know gives you an advantage and time to plan your strategic response. Chances are the information reported it first.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Index's Shardul Shah on Why Market Size is a Trap | Biggest Lessons on Pricing from Leading Rounds in Wiz & Datadog | Why Benchmarks & Averages in VC are BS | How Index Makes Decisions and Why Growth & Early are the Same Investing Style

610.215

Do you not find it difficult to adjust your mental plasticity with stage? You know, at pre-seed and seed, you have to get very comfortable at making decisions without much data or any data at all. And then at series B, you have a lot more data. How do you think about that mental plasticity with stage?

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Index's Shardul Shah on Why Market Size is a Trap | Biggest Lessons on Pricing from Leading Rounds in Wiz & Datadog | Why Benchmarks & Averages in VC are BS | How Index Makes Decisions and Why Growth & Early are the Same Investing Style

665.828

And so an example for me would be I place a lot more emphasis now on finding entrepreneurial talent early in one's career and One of the biggest determinants I found of success from interviewing 500 founders is actually that the best always start early. So I spend a lot of time on childhood and not much time on the business.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Index's Shardul Shah on Why Market Size is a Trap | Biggest Lessons on Pricing from Leading Rounds in Wiz & Datadog | Why Benchmarks & Averages in VC are BS | How Index Makes Decisions and Why Growth & Early are the Same Investing Style

747.052

Can you take me to a time when you've had the strongest intuition and it was wrong? And why do you think it was wrong?

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Index's Shardul Shah on Why Market Size is a Trap | Biggest Lessons on Pricing from Leading Rounds in Wiz & Datadog | Why Benchmarks & Averages in VC are BS | How Index Makes Decisions and Why Growth & Early are the Same Investing Style

78.795

The information is the trusted source for that important first look at actionable news across technology and finance, driving decisions with breaking stories, proprietary data tools and a spotlight on industry trends. With a subscription, you will join an elite community that includes leaders from the top VC firms, CEOs from Fortune 500 companies and esteemed banking and investment professionals.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Index's Shardul Shah on Why Market Size is a Trap | Biggest Lessons on Pricing from Leading Rounds in Wiz & Datadog | Why Benchmarks & Averages in VC are BS | How Index Makes Decisions and Why Growth & Early are the Same Investing Style

807.03

Don't be cute on price. I get it. I completely agree with you. But we're seeing the pains of that now with so many companies looking at valuations going, I don't know how we're going to grow into that. Is there a line between high and a step too high? And how do you think about that? And across different stages? Not when you have conviction, right?

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Index's Shardul Shah on Why Market Size is a Trap | Biggest Lessons on Pricing from Leading Rounds in Wiz & Datadog | Why Benchmarks & Averages in VC are BS | How Index Makes Decisions and Why Growth & Early are the Same Investing Style

874.315

When did you do a deal at a really high price? And actually, it turned out to be a great decision. And the supposedly very high price at the time was not actually high given the outcome.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Index's Shardul Shah on Why Market Size is a Trap | Biggest Lessons on Pricing from Leading Rounds in Wiz & Datadog | Why Benchmarks & Averages in VC are BS | How Index Makes Decisions and Why Growth & Early are the Same Investing Style

895.622

Have you ever had a great investment that's been a good deal as well? I don't know. Do you see what I mean by that?

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Index's Shardul Shah on Why Market Size is a Trap | Biggest Lessons on Pricing from Leading Rounds in Wiz & Datadog | Why Benchmarks & Averages in VC are BS | How Index Makes Decisions and Why Growth & Early are the Same Investing Style

937.188

I completely agree with you on like, hey, you shouldn't be comfortable. When you think about risks that you're willing to take versus risks that you're not willing to take, you've got execution risk, you've got market timing risk, you've got market sizing risk. How do you think about those different risks and your willingness to take them or not take them? Are you a Star Wars fan?

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Investing Lessons from FC Seeding Uber, Airtable and Coupang | Why Pro Rata is the Original Sin in VC | Why Liquidity Has Died in 2024 | Why LPs are Pissed with VCs | The Hard Truth About Seed Fund Economics with David Frankel @ Founder Collective

1011.781

In terms of those founders and that psychology, how do you see that differ in terms of, we spoke about it a little bit before, but like first time founders versus second time founders with huge Xs or failures or small Xs?

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Investing Lessons from FC Seeding Uber, Airtable and Coupang | Why Pro Rata is the Original Sin in VC | Why Liquidity Has Died in 2024 | Why LPs are Pissed with VCs | The Hard Truth About Seed Fund Economics with David Frankel @ Founder Collective

110.46

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The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Investing Lessons from FC Seeding Uber, Airtable and Coupang | Why Pro Rata is the Original Sin in VC | Why Liquidity Has Died in 2024 | Why LPs are Pissed with VCs | The Hard Truth About Seed Fund Economics with David Frankel @ Founder Collective

1139.432

I totally agree with you. Worst question LPs ask and I get in trouble for this is, what themes do you like? I'm like, that's the most lazy LP question. Do you know one thing that I think can be quite lazy in our landscape though is pro rata. So many funds that I see and operate today, yeah, we'll just do pro rata. It's like an easy option, an easy get out.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Investing Lessons from FC Seeding Uber, Airtable and Coupang | Why Pro Rata is the Original Sin in VC | Why Liquidity Has Died in 2024 | Why LPs are Pissed with VCs | The Hard Truth About Seed Fund Economics with David Frankel @ Founder Collective

126.166

It's like crafting your site with a guided system, ensuring it not only reflects your unique style, but also ranks well on search engines. Plus, their flexible payment options cater to every customer's needs, making transactions smooth and hassle-free. And the Squarespace AI? It's a content wizard helping you whip up text that truly resonates with your brand voice.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Investing Lessons from FC Seeding Uber, Airtable and Coupang | Why Pro Rata is the Original Sin in VC | Why Liquidity Has Died in 2024 | Why LPs are Pissed with VCs | The Hard Truth About Seed Fund Economics with David Frankel @ Founder Collective

1279.344

You mentioned stalking horse there. And I use that word exactly internally because I oscillate on the power of conviction and being the first to commit, being the first to show an entrepreneur, I believe in you. We often hear that's what founders love. Actually, quite a lot of the time, they use you as a stalking horse. They kind of take you to market.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Investing Lessons from FC Seeding Uber, Airtable and Coupang | Why Pro Rata is the Original Sin in VC | Why Liquidity Has Died in 2024 | Why LPs are Pissed with VCs | The Hard Truth About Seed Fund Economics with David Frankel @ Founder Collective

1298.658

And understandably, their job is to get the best round. But you can be used to get a better price, to get a better structure. How do you think about that?

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Investing Lessons from FC Seeding Uber, Airtable and Coupang | Why Pro Rata is the Original Sin in VC | Why Liquidity Has Died in 2024 | Why LPs are Pissed with VCs | The Hard Truth About Seed Fund Economics with David Frankel @ Founder Collective

1360.663

Do you think there's any other terms which you're like, that's BS? We had Nick on the show from Notation who we mentioned before, who was like, you know, we should take common, not prefs. I totally disagree with him on that one. But like you said there, pro-odd is kind of a very strange and wrong thing. Any others where you're like, that's berserk?

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Investing Lessons from FC Seeding Uber, Airtable and Coupang | Why Pro Rata is the Original Sin in VC | Why Liquidity Has Died in 2024 | Why LPs are Pissed with VCs | The Hard Truth About Seed Fund Economics with David Frankel @ Founder Collective

145.571

So if you're ready to get started, head to squarespace.com for a free trial. And when you're ready to launch, go to squarespace.com slash 20VC to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain. And finally, before we dive into the show, I want to recommend a book, The Road to Reinvention, a New York Times bestseller on mastering change. No time to read?

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20VC: Investing Lessons from FC Seeding Uber, Airtable and Coupang | Why Pro Rata is the Original Sin in VC | Why Liquidity Has Died in 2024 | Why LPs are Pissed with VCs | The Hard Truth About Seed Fund Economics with David Frankel @ Founder Collective

1451.441

I do notice also founders not adjusting. I was in this board meeting the other day and they're like, but we've done this, this and this. And so we should be double our last round price. And I'm like, I understand your rationale, but the market has moved. And it's like they can't get their head around the fact that external to them, totally, the market has changed.

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20VC: Investing Lessons from FC Seeding Uber, Airtable and Coupang | Why Pro Rata is the Original Sin in VC | Why Liquidity Has Died in 2024 | Why LPs are Pissed with VCs | The Hard Truth About Seed Fund Economics with David Frankel @ Founder Collective

1515.497

I love that. Can venture survive unless we get the reflation of public market multiples? So this is a great question.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Investing Lessons from FC Seeding Uber, Airtable and Coupang | Why Pro Rata is the Original Sin in VC | Why Liquidity Has Died in 2024 | Why LPs are Pissed with VCs | The Hard Truth About Seed Fund Economics with David Frankel @ Founder Collective

1661.423

But how do we solve this? When LPs are asking you, David, liquidity, where is liquidity? How do we solve this? Because IPO markets are not opening up until age 225, I think, at the earliest would be wise to say. And then M&A markets are not open, really, I don't know.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Investing Lessons from FC Seeding Uber, Airtable and Coupang | Why Pro Rata is the Original Sin in VC | Why Liquidity Has Died in 2024 | Why LPs are Pissed with VCs | The Hard Truth About Seed Fund Economics with David Frankel @ Founder Collective

167.159

Listen to 20VC now, then download the Blinkist app to fit key reads into your schedule. With Blinkist, you can grasp the core ideas of over 7,500 non-fiction books and podcasts in just 15 minutes, covering psychology, marketing, business, and more. It's no surprise eight Blinkist users see themselves as self-optimizers, and 65% say it's essential for business and career growth.

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20VC: Investing Lessons from FC Seeding Uber, Airtable and Coupang | Why Pro Rata is the Original Sin in VC | Why Liquidity Has Died in 2024 | Why LPs are Pissed with VCs | The Hard Truth About Seed Fund Economics with David Frankel @ Founder Collective

1723.018

The minute that happens, also LPs are open because there are so many LPs who have positions in those companies.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Investing Lessons from FC Seeding Uber, Airtable and Coupang | Why Pro Rata is the Original Sin in VC | Why Liquidity Has Died in 2024 | Why LPs are Pissed with VCs | The Hard Truth About Seed Fund Economics with David Frankel @ Founder Collective

1752.818

I'm looking at the 19, 20, 21, though. And I'm in a couple of funds. You're in many funds. I don't think that it is a DPI delay in a lot of cases. I think it's a permanent loss of capital that we're actually trying to avoid.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Investing Lessons from FC Seeding Uber, Airtable and Coupang | Why Pro Rata is the Original Sin in VC | Why Liquidity Has Died in 2024 | Why LPs are Pissed with VCs | The Hard Truth About Seed Fund Economics with David Frankel @ Founder Collective

1815.268

So everyone always says, eventually you need your fund returners. This is what the business is about. Are you saying that actually that's not true? You can have these demi-fund returners, these ones that return 25, 30, 40%. Yeah.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Investing Lessons from FC Seeding Uber, Airtable and Coupang | Why Pro Rata is the Original Sin in VC | Why Liquidity Has Died in 2024 | Why LPs are Pissed with VCs | The Hard Truth About Seed Fund Economics with David Frankel @ Founder Collective

1867.146

So we were the largest institutional pre-seed and we co-led the seed with Fred. But this is the other thing that people aren't talking about, which is like it did for you because you've got a 75 million fund. Yeah. But I know a lot of people, I love Index, they're great. But Index's seed fund is like 500 million. Yeah. 400 million? That same one returns less than 25%.

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20VC: Investing Lessons from FC Seeding Uber, Airtable and Coupang | Why Pro Rata is the Original Sin in VC | Why Liquidity Has Died in 2024 | Why LPs are Pissed with VCs | The Hard Truth About Seed Fund Economics with David Frankel @ Founder Collective

191.187

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The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Investing Lessons from FC Seeding Uber, Airtable and Coupang | Why Pro Rata is the Original Sin in VC | Why Liquidity Has Died in 2024 | Why LPs are Pissed with VCs | The Hard Truth About Seed Fund Economics with David Frankel @ Founder Collective

1932.539

Like admittedly, as long as they're not on 20 boards. But are they? I mean, respectfully, I know many of these mega funds, they never show up to

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Investing Lessons from FC Seeding Uber, Airtable and Coupang | Why Pro Rata is the Original Sin in VC | Why Liquidity Has Died in 2024 | Why LPs are Pissed with VCs | The Hard Truth About Seed Fund Economics with David Frankel @ Founder Collective

1956.173

We just won a Series A, and I said, you should take our check because this is 7.5% of our fund. Right. Like, you really matter to me.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Investing Lessons from FC Seeding Uber, Airtable and Coupang | Why Pro Rata is the Original Sin in VC | Why Liquidity Has Died in 2024 | Why LPs are Pissed with VCs | The Hard Truth About Seed Fund Economics with David Frankel @ Founder Collective

1972.12

Everything. What happens then to LPs? Because they continue to invest in the asset class. They're not actually pulling back. Does capital deployment from LPs change as a result of the illiquidity? It depends on who those LPs are. Endowments, pension funds. The endowments are turned off though.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Investing Lessons from FC Seeding Uber, Airtable and Coupang | Why Pro Rata is the Original Sin in VC | Why Liquidity Has Died in 2024 | Why LPs are Pissed with VCs | The Hard Truth About Seed Fund Economics with David Frankel @ Founder Collective

2007.738

I'm getting on a high horse here. This is a big problem, though, which is they all looked at Swanson and thought, hang on, we can replicate this incredibly heavy 35%, 40% allocation. But that was in a time when liquidity was much better. And actually, your hit rate on selection was much better. Now, your hit rate is way lower and you've got real illiquidity.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Investing Lessons from FC Seeding Uber, Airtable and Coupang | Why Pro Rata is the Original Sin in VC | Why Liquidity Has Died in 2024 | Why LPs are Pissed with VCs | The Hard Truth About Seed Fund Economics with David Frankel @ Founder Collective

2093.916

But the secondary markets then are like more alive than ever, almost to the point where it's the most obvious market to go into. And all LPs are like, we're super interested in secondaries now. How do you think about navigating secondary markets? Is it the duty of us seed funds to be very active in managing positions, portfolio exits?

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Investing Lessons from FC Seeding Uber, Airtable and Coupang | Why Pro Rata is the Original Sin in VC | Why Liquidity Has Died in 2024 | Why LPs are Pissed with VCs | The Hard Truth About Seed Fund Economics with David Frankel @ Founder Collective

2151.399

You mentioned the companies that raise from your Tigers and your Andreessens and your Softbanks and then have these down rounds. What happens to all of these companies with seven years of runway, which kind of aren't hitting? Are we about to see this decimation of them? Do they just kind of plateau into the unknown? What happens?

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Investing Lessons from FC Seeding Uber, Airtable and Coupang | Why Pro Rata is the Original Sin in VC | Why Liquidity Has Died in 2024 | Why LPs are Pissed with VCs | The Hard Truth About Seed Fund Economics with David Frankel @ Founder Collective

218.136

David, I am so excited for this, man. We were literally just saying how much more special it is to do it in person. So thank you so much for joining me in person. Harry, it's so awesome to be here. I love being here with you in person in London.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Investing Lessons from FC Seeding Uber, Airtable and Coupang | Why Pro Rata is the Original Sin in VC | Why Liquidity Has Died in 2024 | Why LPs are Pissed with VCs | The Hard Truth About Seed Fund Economics with David Frankel @ Founder Collective

2210.435

Do you think we're seeing a generation of VCs quite quit in companies? In these companies, they just go, I'm out.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Investing Lessons from FC Seeding Uber, Airtable and Coupang | Why Pro Rata is the Original Sin in VC | Why Liquidity Has Died in 2024 | Why LPs are Pissed with VCs | The Hard Truth About Seed Fund Economics with David Frankel @ Founder Collective

2265.445

we mentioned coupang we mentioned uber we mentioned the trade desk i love our mutual friend avi for his framework around actually selling and he broke it down on the show in three distinct parts i'm intrigued when you look at the ipos there and the great outcomes they've gone on to be do you sell when they ipo and what's your process for liquidating and how to distribute effectively

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Investing Lessons from FC Seeding Uber, Airtable and Coupang | Why Pro Rata is the Original Sin in VC | Why Liquidity Has Died in 2024 | Why LPs are Pissed with VCs | The Hard Truth About Seed Fund Economics with David Frankel @ Founder Collective

228.843

Dude, I want to start on one of my biggest, most pressing concerns actually right now, which is we are seeing these massive seed rounds, like $6 to $10 million. How can traditional seed funds, $50 to $100 million seed funds, play in this new world?

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Investing Lessons from FC Seeding Uber, Airtable and Coupang | Why Pro Rata is the Original Sin in VC | Why Liquidity Has Died in 2024 | Why LPs are Pissed with VCs | The Hard Truth About Seed Fund Economics with David Frankel @ Founder Collective

2419.855

So we were chatting before, and when we spoke, you mentioned LEACH, and I thought it was a great acronym. What is LEACH, David? Let's start there.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Investing Lessons from FC Seeding Uber, Airtable and Coupang | Why Pro Rata is the Original Sin in VC | Why Liquidity Has Died in 2024 | Why LPs are Pissed with VCs | The Hard Truth About Seed Fund Economics with David Frankel @ Founder Collective

2498.843

I remember actually TJ at Pillpack talking to me about rousing the leeches, that being a very difficult moment. Yeah.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Investing Lessons from FC Seeding Uber, Airtable and Coupang | Why Pro Rata is the Original Sin in VC | Why Liquidity Has Died in 2024 | Why LPs are Pissed with VCs | The Hard Truth About Seed Fund Economics with David Frankel @ Founder Collective

2581.146

Is that ever a business you want to be involved in though? When you are fighting against these monopolistic players with regulatory power, with lobbying power, with capital moats to the extreme. I mean, I've met so many ticketing companies. I remember Dice most recently. I don't know if you know them in London. I'm just like, hell no. Live Nation, I'm not going against you.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Investing Lessons from FC Seeding Uber, Airtable and Coupang | Why Pro Rata is the Original Sin in VC | Why Liquidity Has Died in 2024 | Why LPs are Pissed with VCs | The Hard Truth About Seed Fund Economics with David Frankel @ Founder Collective

2599.542

Ticketmaster, not a chance. You see it in travel the whole time. Am I really going to go against Booking, Expedia, TripAdvisor, Trivago? Fuck no.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Investing Lessons from FC Seeding Uber, Airtable and Coupang | Why Pro Rata is the Original Sin in VC | Why Liquidity Has Died in 2024 | Why LPs are Pissed with VCs | The Hard Truth About Seed Fund Economics with David Frankel @ Founder Collective

2727.17

I don't want this to happen to me. Do these companies not always lose? And I know PillPack returned the fund and I love TJ and so I hope I don't upset him with this. But I mean- The PBMs are still the PBMs. And yeah, Epic is still Epic. And they're still there. Booking is still booking. Live Nation is still Live Nation. Oh man, Harry, there's no fun in entrepreneurship if you believe that.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Investing Lessons from FC Seeding Uber, Airtable and Coupang | Why Pro Rata is the Original Sin in VC | Why Liquidity Has Died in 2024 | Why LPs are Pissed with VCs | The Hard Truth About Seed Fund Economics with David Frankel @ Founder Collective

28.106

This is 20VC with me, Harry Stebbings, and I'm so excited to welcome a dear friend and mentor of mine to the hot seat today. He is one of the great seed investors of our time, David Frankel. David is the founder and managing partner at Founder Collective, the firm with seed checks in Uber, Coupang, Airtable, Whoop, PillPack, and many more billion-dollar incredible companies.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Investing Lessons from FC Seeding Uber, Airtable and Coupang | Why Pro Rata is the Original Sin in VC | Why Liquidity Has Died in 2024 | Why LPs are Pissed with VCs | The Hard Truth About Seed Fund Economics with David Frankel @ Founder Collective

2820.091

You mentioned sooner that obviously incredible business at the forefront of AI as well. AI is a new capital profile. You're a big ardent believer in capital efficiency and kind of small arounds and being pragmatic around that, as am I. Do you change your stance around that in a world of AI today?

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Investing Lessons from FC Seeding Uber, Airtable and Coupang | Why Pro Rata is the Original Sin in VC | Why Liquidity Has Died in 2024 | Why LPs are Pissed with VCs | The Hard Truth About Seed Fund Economics with David Frankel @ Founder Collective

2911.398

With that in mind, How do you think about navigating AI seed rounds today? Because all the AI seed rounds I see today are just crazy competitive and crazy priced.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Investing Lessons from FC Seeding Uber, Airtable and Coupang | Why Pro Rata is the Original Sin in VC | Why Liquidity Has Died in 2024 | Why LPs are Pissed with VCs | The Hard Truth About Seed Fund Economics with David Frankel @ Founder Collective

2952.461

It becomes open AI. I'll tell you, I was one of the first investors to meet Mr. Al. Yeah, of course. And the first round was at like 250, I think. And I said, there's no way. Did you write the check? No. And I said, there's no way that I, as a seed manager, can invest in 250. Well, it goes to 5 billion. And with dilution, which there will be a lot, because I'm going to get what?

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Investing Lessons from FC Seeding Uber, Airtable and Coupang | Why Pro Rata is the Original Sin in VC | Why Liquidity Has Died in 2024 | Why LPs are Pissed with VCs | The Hard Truth About Seed Fund Economics with David Frankel @ Founder Collective

3076.912

I've been insanely impressed by perplexity, I have to say. I don't know if you've used perplexity as a product. I haven't. Oh, my God. It's a phenomenal product.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Investing Lessons from FC Seeding Uber, Airtable and Coupang | Why Pro Rata is the Original Sin in VC | Why Liquidity Has Died in 2024 | Why LPs are Pissed with VCs | The Hard Truth About Seed Fund Economics with David Frankel @ Founder Collective

3090.099

Do you think AI will create a generation of new unbelievable companies with huge market caps? Or do you think it will consolidate power into existing huge market caps?

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Investing Lessons from FC Seeding Uber, Airtable and Coupang | Why Pro Rata is the Original Sin in VC | Why Liquidity Has Died in 2024 | Why LPs are Pissed with VCs | The Hard Truth About Seed Fund Economics with David Frankel @ Founder Collective

3220.529

What I'm impressed by always with you is your humility. I mean, I don't know. Yeah, dude, but not many have the number of hits that you do. You can say I don't know when it's the one out of 50 that's a hit. But when you have the trade desk, coupang, air table, Uber, I mean, this goes on and on. Huge credit to Eric.

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20VC: Investing Lessons from FC Seeding Uber, Airtable and Coupang | Why Pro Rata is the Original Sin in VC | Why Liquidity Has Died in 2024 | Why LPs are Pissed with VCs | The Hard Truth About Seed Fund Economics with David Frankel @ Founder Collective

3239.742

You could say, well, the data shows that you do have a higher probability of knowing than anyone else.

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20VC: Investing Lessons from FC Seeding Uber, Airtable and Coupang | Why Pro Rata is the Original Sin in VC | Why Liquidity Has Died in 2024 | Why LPs are Pissed with VCs | The Hard Truth About Seed Fund Economics with David Frankel @ Founder Collective

3273.969

A lot of venture investors would say, for a seed investor to think that, that's a low bar. You need to think bigger. How would you respond to them?

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Investing Lessons from FC Seeding Uber, Airtable and Coupang | Why Pro Rata is the Original Sin in VC | Why Liquidity Has Died in 2024 | Why LPs are Pissed with VCs | The Hard Truth About Seed Fund Economics with David Frankel @ Founder Collective

3285.601

Do you know what I would respond as well? Go and read Bessemer's memos because every memo for big companies, whether it's Snap or whether it's Procore or whether it's Shopify, Every great company, you underestimate the size of your winners.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Investing Lessons from FC Seeding Uber, Airtable and Coupang | Why Pro Rata is the Original Sin in VC | Why Liquidity Has Died in 2024 | Why LPs are Pissed with VCs | The Hard Truth About Seed Fund Economics with David Frankel @ Founder Collective

3299.932

And so by thinking that, actually, you do not lose the amazing Olo, which will do great returns, the amazing PillPack, because you needed the $20 billion company.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Investing Lessons from FC Seeding Uber, Airtable and Coupang | Why Pro Rata is the Original Sin in VC | Why Liquidity Has Died in 2024 | Why LPs are Pissed with VCs | The Hard Truth About Seed Fund Economics with David Frankel @ Founder Collective

3345.469

Do you think about downside protection when you come into companies? Just in terms of, listen, they're really smart operators in payments. Bad day, stripe or buy them. That's the one thing I don't think about much.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Investing Lessons from FC Seeding Uber, Airtable and Coupang | Why Pro Rata is the Original Sin in VC | Why Liquidity Has Died in 2024 | Why LPs are Pissed with VCs | The Hard Truth About Seed Fund Economics with David Frankel @ Founder Collective

3377.139

If we're not losing, are we taking enough risk? Listen, I had Shardul on from Index the other day. And I asked him, what's your biggest loss and what did you learn? He actually went like, I haven't really lost a deal. Now, I pushed back and I said, have you taken enough risk then? I mean, to be fair on him, he's got data dog and whiz. Like, yes, he's got it.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Investing Lessons from FC Seeding Uber, Airtable and Coupang | Why Pro Rata is the Original Sin in VC | Why Liquidity Has Died in 2024 | Why LPs are Pissed with VCs | The Hard Truth About Seed Fund Economics with David Frankel @ Founder Collective

3473.802

I love that. You know, there was one great piece of advice that I was once given by a guest who will remain nameless because he's very, very confidential. I'll tell you afterwards. But he said, Harry, if you're ever willing to take less in a deal, don't do it. So if ever you have 1.25 allocation and you're like, oh, I'm fine to take one, don't do it. Do you agree with that?

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20VC: Investing Lessons from FC Seeding Uber, Airtable and Coupang | Why Pro Rata is the Original Sin in VC | Why Liquidity Has Died in 2024 | Why LPs are Pissed with VCs | The Hard Truth About Seed Fund Economics with David Frankel @ Founder Collective

3539.701

Do you think he correlates to deal quality? No, not at all. Yeah. This is my, I look back at the fund portfolio in particular, hottest deals, the worst, the five on 25s that were the hottest, the worst.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Investing Lessons from FC Seeding Uber, Airtable and Coupang | Why Pro Rata is the Original Sin in VC | Why Liquidity Has Died in 2024 | Why LPs are Pissed with VCs | The Hard Truth About Seed Fund Economics with David Frankel @ Founder Collective

3609.666

You mentioned the secondaries. We've had founders demonized over the last few years for taking secondaries, especially as the tide has turned. How do you advise founders on taking secondaries, right amount to take, when to take them? How to think about that?

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Investing Lessons from FC Seeding Uber, Airtable and Coupang | Why Pro Rata is the Original Sin in VC | Why Liquidity Has Died in 2024 | Why LPs are Pissed with VCs | The Hard Truth About Seed Fund Economics with David Frankel @ Founder Collective

362.841

Totally agree with you. I look at Bundy Olo. Like, oh, we just did a deal in a company called Aloe. Clearly there's a naming thing with restaurants. But, like, everyone's like, oh, my God, restaurants. Great. Fucking load up on that. I totally agree with you.

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20VC: Investing Lessons from FC Seeding Uber, Airtable and Coupang | Why Pro Rata is the Original Sin in VC | Why Liquidity Has Died in 2024 | Why LPs are Pissed with VCs | The Hard Truth About Seed Fund Economics with David Frankel @ Founder Collective

3687.142

But I am pissed off and I'm pissed off with growth investors who were shoveling cash down founders' throats in the good times and are now going, I can't believe all these founders that took all that money off the table. You fucking shoveled $30 million down their throats. And quite rightly, they said, fine. Yeah.

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20VC: Investing Lessons from FC Seeding Uber, Airtable and Coupang | Why Pro Rata is the Original Sin in VC | Why Liquidity Has Died in 2024 | Why LPs are Pissed with VCs | The Hard Truth About Seed Fund Economics with David Frankel @ Founder Collective

3747.305

Yeah. And I told him, even though I lost the seed in that company to Local Globe. Yeah, we co-led the seed with Local Globe. Fuck it. Saul showed it to me and said, we need someone across the ocean. And it moving swiftly on. But I remember I said, don't do it. Yeah. Fairweather and Busters.

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20VC: Investing Lessons from FC Seeding Uber, Airtable and Coupang | Why Pro Rata is the Original Sin in VC | Why Liquidity Has Died in 2024 | Why LPs are Pissed with VCs | The Hard Truth About Seed Fund Economics with David Frankel @ Founder Collective

3825.471

I see this as my opportunity, though, because you're absolutely right. But this means everyone's kind of moving out of vertical SaaS thinking that it's not attractive.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Investing Lessons from FC Seeding Uber, Airtable and Coupang | Why Pro Rata is the Original Sin in VC | Why Liquidity Has Died in 2024 | Why LPs are Pissed with VCs | The Hard Truth About Seed Fund Economics with David Frankel @ Founder Collective

3877.7

Listen, I totally agree with you. I think the subsequent question though for me is, does AI mean you can increase the price you charge per seat or just maintain your position and have denigrated margins? It's a great question. Because I had the CPO of Canva on the show and he said, oh, we're doing all these amazing things with AI. And I'm like, you're fantastic.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Investing Lessons from FC Seeding Uber, Airtable and Coupang | Why Pro Rata is the Original Sin in VC | Why Liquidity Has Died in 2024 | Why LPs are Pissed with VCs | The Hard Truth About Seed Fund Economics with David Frankel @ Founder Collective

3898.415

But he mentioned the margin denigration that happens with every query. Yeah. And then they announce a 300% price increase. It's an amazing tool. I'm sure people will pay for it. Great. But will we see prices increase or will we see margins?

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Investing Lessons from FC Seeding Uber, Airtable and Coupang | Why Pro Rata is the Original Sin in VC | Why Liquidity Has Died in 2024 | Why LPs are Pissed with VCs | The Hard Truth About Seed Fund Economics with David Frankel @ Founder Collective

3938.05

So you don't agree with, say, the David Friedbergs or the Deleons who say that AI means that companies will be able to build their own vertical solutions tailored to their specific needs and actually will see the end of vertical SaaS in that way.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Investing Lessons from FC Seeding Uber, Airtable and Coupang | Why Pro Rata is the Original Sin in VC | Why Liquidity Has Died in 2024 | Why LPs are Pissed with VCs | The Hard Truth About Seed Fund Economics with David Frankel @ Founder Collective

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we drastically overestimate the technology sophistication of these companies to be able to build with AI their own vertical solutions. Are you kidding me? They struggle to onboard Slack.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Investing Lessons from FC Seeding Uber, Airtable and Coupang | Why Pro Rata is the Original Sin in VC | Why Liquidity Has Died in 2024 | Why LPs are Pissed with VCs | The Hard Truth About Seed Fund Economics with David Frankel @ Founder Collective

4033.32

There's one final thing I want to discuss, which is boards. I spoke to so many friends of ours, founders that you work with. You're a phenomenal board member. I've actually sat with you on a board and you're, again, fantastic.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Investing Lessons from FC Seeding Uber, Airtable and Coupang | Why Pro Rata is the Original Sin in VC | Why Liquidity Has Died in 2024 | Why LPs are Pissed with VCs | The Hard Truth About Seed Fund Economics with David Frankel @ Founder Collective

4164.363

And there's also the times when the opportunity cost of capital is so real that to continue to sustain that is just not a worthwhile position. So I completely get you that. Vinod Khosa says very interestingly that 90% of VCs detract value. Do you agree? Yeah.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Investing Lessons from FC Seeding Uber, Airtable and Coupang | Why Pro Rata is the Original Sin in VC | Why Liquidity Has Died in 2024 | Why LPs are Pissed with VCs | The Hard Truth About Seed Fund Economics with David Frankel @ Founder Collective

425.197

I have done that once in a career. Wow. Could I not push? If I was your partner, I would actually say, listen.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Investing Lessons from FC Seeding Uber, Airtable and Coupang | Why Pro Rata is the Original Sin in VC | Why Liquidity Has Died in 2024 | Why LPs are Pissed with VCs | The Hard Truth About Seed Fund Economics with David Frankel @ Founder Collective

4265.164

You mentioned the word fraud. I think there are so many more frauds in portfolios that people are not talking about. Do you think there are a lot more frauds that no one is saying?

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Investing Lessons from FC Seeding Uber, Airtable and Coupang | Why Pro Rata is the Original Sin in VC | Why Liquidity Has Died in 2024 | Why LPs are Pissed with VCs | The Hard Truth About Seed Fund Economics with David Frankel @ Founder Collective

4277.213

There's so many brands that are around this. Is there anything you feel we haven't discussed about the world of venture that we should?

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20VC: Investing Lessons from FC Seeding Uber, Airtable and Coupang | Why Pro Rata is the Original Sin in VC | Why Liquidity Has Died in 2024 | Why LPs are Pissed with VCs | The Hard Truth About Seed Fund Economics with David Frankel @ Founder Collective

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No, I would disagree. And I would say actually also there is a huge amount of social validity that comes with being an incredible brand category defining winners. Being the first round investor in Suno is so important for the next generation of Sunos. You should be in that. It's a financially good decision and you will get great brand ramifications. Yeah.

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20VC: Investing Lessons from FC Seeding Uber, Airtable and Coupang | Why Pro Rata is the Original Sin in VC | Why Liquidity Has Died in 2024 | Why LPs are Pissed with VCs | The Hard Truth About Seed Fund Economics with David Frankel @ Founder Collective

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That's all I do. But advice to founders, you need to have a seed partner who knows the specific partner at the firm because it falls through the cracks and you go to die there. You need to know that it's- Alex Tauszig of Lightspeed.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Investing Lessons from FC Seeding Uber, Airtable and Coupang | Why Pro Rata is the Original Sin in VC | Why Liquidity Has Died in 2024 | Why LPs are Pissed with VCs | The Hard Truth About Seed Fund Economics with David Frankel @ Founder Collective

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I do think there's also incentives that founders don't see, which is, especially on structuring rounds, people will bring in people who are maybe not the best fit for the company, but they owe them for a deal that was done before. Or they want to curry favors with people. I see this a lot where I'm like, hey, hey, the head of growth at Revolut is a better angel than this random person.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Investing Lessons from FC Seeding Uber, Airtable and Coupang | Why Pro Rata is the Original Sin in VC | Why Liquidity Has Died in 2024 | Why LPs are Pissed with VCs | The Hard Truth About Seed Fund Economics with David Frankel @ Founder Collective

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But the founder is being pulled along by the VC who owes them a favor for a deal that they sent them last time. And I don't think founders see a lot of that.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Investing Lessons from FC Seeding Uber, Airtable and Coupang | Why Pro Rata is the Original Sin in VC | Why Liquidity Has Died in 2024 | Why LPs are Pissed with VCs | The Hard Truth About Seed Fund Economics with David Frankel @ Founder Collective

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But when you're starting out- I don't think it does matter, actually. I really don't. I think the difference between a $1 billion founder and a $10 billion founder, or sorry, $1 billion company and $10 billion company is a truly great founder who can do a great second night. I agree. And honestly, if we're coming in at sub 20, and especially when you've got the heuristic of a 10X, who gives a shit?

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Investing Lessons from FC Seeding Uber, Airtable and Coupang | Why Pro Rata is the Original Sin in VC | Why Liquidity Has Died in 2024 | Why LPs are Pissed with VCs | The Hard Truth About Seed Fund Economics with David Frankel @ Founder Collective

4629.398

He's a really good dude. Listen, I want to do a quick fire with you. So I say a short statement, you give me your immediate thoughts. Does that sound okay? Amazing. What have you changed your mind on most in the last 12 months?

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Investing Lessons from FC Seeding Uber, Airtable and Coupang | Why Pro Rata is the Original Sin in VC | Why Liquidity Has Died in 2024 | Why LPs are Pissed with VCs | The Hard Truth About Seed Fund Economics with David Frankel @ Founder Collective

4661.826

Mark Suster said on the show that liquidity will be provided by PE in the next generation as the core. Agree?

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Investing Lessons from FC Seeding Uber, Airtable and Coupang | Why Pro Rata is the Original Sin in VC | Why Liquidity Has Died in 2024 | Why LPs are Pissed with VCs | The Hard Truth About Seed Fund Economics with David Frankel @ Founder Collective

4728.728

What's the best investment advice you've received? Patience. Just be patient. What do you know now that you wish you'd known when you started Founder Collective?

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Investing Lessons from FC Seeding Uber, Airtable and Coupang | Why Pro Rata is the Original Sin in VC | Why Liquidity Has Died in 2024 | Why LPs are Pissed with VCs | The Hard Truth About Seed Fund Economics with David Frankel @ Founder Collective

4796.611

But ultimate one, I had this the other day and I thought it was incredible. The heaviest thing in life is not iron or gold, it's unmade decisions. What unmade decision weighs you most?

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Investing Lessons from FC Seeding Uber, Airtable and Coupang | Why Pro Rata is the Original Sin in VC | Why Liquidity Has Died in 2024 | Why LPs are Pissed with VCs | The Hard Truth About Seed Fund Economics with David Frankel @ Founder Collective

4928.271

David, listen, I want to finish with what question are you never asked that you should be asked more? What matters most?

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Investing Lessons from FC Seeding Uber, Airtable and Coupang | Why Pro Rata is the Original Sin in VC | Why Liquidity Has Died in 2024 | Why LPs are Pissed with VCs | The Hard Truth About Seed Fund Economics with David Frankel @ Founder Collective

4938.887

You know, I started this show to meet incredible ambassadors. I've got a good book. You've got a good book? I've got a good book for you. Oh, gosh. You've got to talk about that. What's the favorite book?

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Investing Lessons from FC Seeding Uber, Airtable and Coupang | Why Pro Rata is the Original Sin in VC | Why Liquidity Has Died in 2024 | Why LPs are Pissed with VCs | The Hard Truth About Seed Fund Economics with David Frankel @ Founder Collective

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Get that, Michael and Eric. Listen, David, I've loved this. Thank you so much. This has been so much fun. That was such a special one for me to do. David has been a supporter and friend for many years, and so it meant the world to me that we got to do that in person today. If you'd like to watch the full episode, you can find it on YouTube by searching for 20VC. That's 20VC.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Investing Lessons from FC Seeding Uber, Airtable and Coupang | Why Pro Rata is the Original Sin in VC | Why Liquidity Has Died in 2024 | Why LPs are Pissed with VCs | The Hard Truth About Seed Fund Economics with David Frankel @ Founder Collective

5067.309

But before we leave you today, this episode is presented by Brex, the financial stack founders can bank on. Brex knows that nearly 40% of startups fail because they run out of cash, so they built a banking experience that takes every dollar further. It's a stark difference from traditional banking options that leave your cash sitting idle while chipping away at it with fees.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Investing Lessons from FC Seeding Uber, Airtable and Coupang | Why Pro Rata is the Original Sin in VC | Why Liquidity Has Died in 2024 | Why LPs are Pissed with VCs | The Hard Truth About Seed Fund Economics with David Frankel @ Founder Collective

5087.797

To help you protect your cash, Brex combined the best things about checking, treasury and FDIC insurance in one powerhouse account. You can send and receive money worldwide at lightning speed. You can get 20x the standard FDIC protection through program banks. And you can earn industry-leading yield from your first dollar while still being able to access your funds anytime.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Investing Lessons from FC Seeding Uber, Airtable and Coupang | Why Pro Rata is the Original Sin in VC | Why Liquidity Has Died in 2024 | Why LPs are Pissed with VCs | The Hard Truth About Seed Fund Economics with David Frankel @ Founder Collective

51.121

But before we dive in, this episode is presented by Brex, the financial stack founders can bank on. Brex knows that nearly 40% of startups fail because they run out of cash, so they built a banking experience that takes every dollar further. It's a stark difference from traditional banking options that leave your cash sitting idle while chipping away at it with fees. To help you protect your cash,

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Investing Lessons from FC Seeding Uber, Airtable and Coupang | Why Pro Rata is the Original Sin in VC | Why Liquidity Has Died in 2024 | Why LPs are Pissed with VCs | The Hard Truth About Seed Fund Economics with David Frankel @ Founder Collective

5110.296

Brex is a top choice for startups. In fact, it's used by one in every three startups in the U.S., To join them, visit brex.com slash startups. And finally, let's talk about Squarespace. Squarespace is the all-in-one website platform for entrepreneurs to stand out and succeed online.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Investing Lessons from FC Seeding Uber, Airtable and Coupang | Why Pro Rata is the Original Sin in VC | Why Liquidity Has Died in 2024 | Why LPs are Pissed with VCs | The Hard Truth About Seed Fund Economics with David Frankel @ Founder Collective

5127.169

Whether you're just starting out or managing a growing brand, Squarespace makes it easy to create a beautiful website, engage with your audience, and sell anything from products to content, all in one place, all on your terms. What's blown me away is the Squarespace Blueprint AI and SEO tools. It's like crafting your site with a guided system.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Investing Lessons from FC Seeding Uber, Airtable and Coupang | Why Pro Rata is the Original Sin in VC | Why Liquidity Has Died in 2024 | Why LPs are Pissed with VCs | The Hard Truth About Seed Fund Economics with David Frankel @ Founder Collective

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ensuring it not only reflects your unique style, but also ranks well on search engines. Plus, their flexible payment options cater to every customer's needs, making transactions smooth and hassle-free. And the Squarespace AI? It's a content wizard helping you whip up text that truly resonates with your brand voice. So if you're ready to get started, head to squarespace.com for a free trial.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Investing Lessons from FC Seeding Uber, Airtable and Coupang | Why Pro Rata is the Original Sin in VC | Why Liquidity Has Died in 2024 | Why LPs are Pissed with VCs | The Hard Truth About Seed Fund Economics with David Frankel @ Founder Collective

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And when you're ready to launch, go to squarespace.com slash 20VC to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain. And finally, before we dive into the show, I want to recommend a book, The Road to Reinvention, a New York Times bestseller on mastering change. No time to read? Listen to 20VC now, then download the Blinkist app to fit key reads into your schedule.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Investing Lessons from FC Seeding Uber, Airtable and Coupang | Why Pro Rata is the Original Sin in VC | Why Liquidity Has Died in 2024 | Why LPs are Pissed with VCs | The Hard Truth About Seed Fund Economics with David Frankel @ Founder Collective

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The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Investing Lessons from FC Seeding Uber, Airtable and Coupang | Why Pro Rata is the Original Sin in VC | Why Liquidity Has Died in 2024 | Why LPs are Pissed with VCs | The Hard Truth About Seed Fund Economics with David Frankel @ Founder Collective

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The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Investing Lessons from FC Seeding Uber, Airtable and Coupang | Why Pro Rata is the Original Sin in VC | Why Liquidity Has Died in 2024 | Why LPs are Pissed with VCs | The Hard Truth About Seed Fund Economics with David Frankel @ Founder Collective

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As always, I so appreciate your support and stay tuned for an incredible episode coming on Wednesday with Zach Paré, co-founder and CEO at Plaid.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Investing Lessons from FC Seeding Uber, Airtable and Coupang | Why Pro Rata is the Original Sin in VC | Why Liquidity Has Died in 2024 | Why LPs are Pissed with VCs | The Hard Truth About Seed Fund Economics with David Frankel @ Founder Collective

548.305

When have you not broken the rules and you've stayed disciplined and you regret it? We spoke before about one time with me. When have you not and you regret it?

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20VC: Investing Lessons from FC Seeding Uber, Airtable and Coupang | Why Pro Rata is the Original Sin in VC | Why Liquidity Has Died in 2024 | Why LPs are Pissed with VCs | The Hard Truth About Seed Fund Economics with David Frankel @ Founder Collective

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David, how fast do you know when you are in a company that is not good? Wow, that is such a great question. I actually feel like you know very, very quickly. I'm saying first three months.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Investing Lessons from FC Seeding Uber, Airtable and Coupang | Why Pro Rata is the Original Sin in VC | Why Liquidity Has Died in 2024 | Why LPs are Pissed with VCs | The Hard Truth About Seed Fund Economics with David Frankel @ Founder Collective

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The one thing I've learned here is patience beyond anything else. Patience and like pain tolerance. Actually, one of my best friends is the founder of Calm, the meditation app. And he says, listen, being an entrepreneur, he told me this when I was fundraising, being an entrepreneur is just the ability to get punched in the face every single day and say, I'll come back tomorrow.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Investing Lessons from FC Seeding Uber, Airtable and Coupang | Why Pro Rata is the Original Sin in VC | Why Liquidity Has Died in 2024 | Why LPs are Pissed with VCs | The Hard Truth About Seed Fund Economics with David Frankel @ Founder Collective

697.445

I haven't heard that. But you're right absolutely in terms of consumer you see a little bit more, enterprise you see less, which is why, David, I do not do reserves. And I don't because I was in Hoppin', I was in Clubhouse, I was in BeReal, and then I've got a load of companies which were much slower in enterprise and are phenomenal investments.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Investing Lessons from FC Seeding Uber, Airtable and Coupang | Why Pro Rata is the Original Sin in VC | Why Liquidity Has Died in 2024 | Why LPs are Pissed with VCs | The Hard Truth About Seed Fund Economics with David Frankel @ Founder Collective

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But if I had reserves, I would put them all in the three companies with traction. How do you feel about reserves and that approach? Yeah.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Investing Lessons from FC Seeding Uber, Airtable and Coupang | Why Pro Rata is the Original Sin in VC | Why Liquidity Has Died in 2024 | Why LPs are Pissed with VCs | The Hard Truth About Seed Fund Economics with David Frankel @ Founder Collective

72.891

And Brex combined the best things about checking, treasury and FDIC insurance in one powerhouse account. You can send and receive money worldwide at lightning speed. You can get 20x the standard FDIC protection through program banks. And you can earn industry-leading yield from your first dollar while still being able to access your funds anytime. Brex is a top choice for startups.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Investing Lessons from FC Seeding Uber, Airtable and Coupang | Why Pro Rata is the Original Sin in VC | Why Liquidity Has Died in 2024 | Why LPs are Pissed with VCs | The Hard Truth About Seed Fund Economics with David Frankel @ Founder Collective

794.446

And why would you do that? I mean, because it's also very easy to set rules based on exceptions like that. But every other reserve that needed the money where that was the case went to zero.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Investing Lessons from FC Seeding Uber, Airtable and Coupang | Why Pro Rata is the Original Sin in VC | Why Liquidity Has Died in 2024 | Why LPs are Pissed with VCs | The Hard Truth About Seed Fund Economics with David Frankel @ Founder Collective

838.638

I'm so sorry to ask, but funds are 75 million. So you have a one-to-one. You've got a 35, say, for initial. I mean, there's fees and everything. So it's 35 for initial. God, if you're doing, you've got like 25 million to checks. It's not very many.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Investing Lessons from FC Seeding Uber, Airtable and Coupang | Why Pro Rata is the Original Sin in VC | Why Liquidity Has Died in 2024 | Why LPs are Pissed with VCs | The Hard Truth About Seed Fund Economics with David Frankel @ Founder Collective

888.502

It's also so tough because you are forward looking in terms of where the portfolio will be. And that is very difficult on net new investments that maybe haven't even been made yet.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Investing Lessons from FC Seeding Uber, Airtable and Coupang | Why Pro Rata is the Original Sin in VC | Why Liquidity Has Died in 2024 | Why LPs are Pissed with VCs | The Hard Truth About Seed Fund Economics with David Frankel @ Founder Collective

910.829

The company is going nowhere and you lose faith in the founder and the CEO. Do you tell them or do you do what my friend Jason Lemkin says, which is like, that never works. Just don't bother. Just don't tell them. No one wants the hard feedback.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Investing Lessons from FC Seeding Uber, Airtable and Coupang | Why Pro Rata is the Original Sin in VC | Why Liquidity Has Died in 2024 | Why LPs are Pissed with VCs | The Hard Truth About Seed Fund Economics with David Frankel @ Founder Collective

95.692

In fact, it's used by one in every three startups in the U.S., To join them, visit brex.com slash startups. And finally, let's talk about Squarespace. Squarespace is the all-in-one website platform for entrepreneurs to stand out and succeed online.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Anduril Co-Founder on How a Trump Administration Changes the Defence Industry | What Happens Between China vs Taiwan, Israel vs Palestine, Russia vs Ukraine | How Software Changes War & Why TikTok Should Be Banned with Matt Grimm

101.903

Being recommended by the New York Times and Apple CEO Tim Cook, it's no surprise that 82% of Blinkist users see themselves as self-optimizers and 65% say it's essential for business and career growth. And speaking of business, Blinkist is also a trusted L&D partner for industry leaders like Amazon, Hyundai, and KPMG UK, empowering over 32 million users since 2012.

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20VC: Anduril Co-Founder on How a Trump Administration Changes the Defence Industry | What Happens Between China vs Taiwan, Israel vs Palestine, Russia vs Ukraine | How Software Changes War & Why TikTok Should Be Banned with Matt Grimm

1018.846

How do you think about them building a faster horse? And what I mean by that is if you're following five-year vision docs, you're just kind of, oh, they want that, and so we'll align our product roadmap to that, versus governments are largely inefficient. They change every four years, so I don't know how they have a five-year vision doc.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Anduril Co-Founder on How a Trump Administration Changes the Defence Industry | What Happens Between China vs Taiwan, Israel vs Palestine, Russia vs Ukraine | How Software Changes War & Why TikTok Should Be Banned with Matt Grimm

1033.911

They're mostly run by people who've never actually had a job. I mean, you sound like the shittest customers ever. How do you think about actually leading the way, showing what technology can do and prioritizing what to build first?

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Anduril Co-Founder on How a Trump Administration Changes the Defence Industry | What Happens Between China vs Taiwan, Israel vs Palestine, Russia vs Ukraine | How Software Changes War & Why TikTok Should Be Banned with Matt Grimm

1213.714

Let's give it a go. I was speaking to a defense entrepreneur the other day, and they said the thing you will consistently overestimate is the intelligence and the intellect of government buying organizations. They largely don't know what AI is, Harry. And so it is a uphill battle selling into them. Yeah. Is that a fair picture of government buying knowledge?

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Anduril Co-Founder on How a Trump Administration Changes the Defence Industry | What Happens Between China vs Taiwan, Israel vs Palestine, Russia vs Ukraine | How Software Changes War & Why TikTok Should Be Banned with Matt Grimm

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As a 20VC listener, even better, you get 25% exclusive discount on Blinkist. That's B-L-I-N-K-I-S-T. Just visit blinkist.com forward slash 20VC to claim your discount and transform the way you learn. And while you're optimizing your learning, let's also optimize your finances with Brex, the financial stack founders can bank on.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Anduril Co-Founder on How a Trump Administration Changes the Defence Industry | What Happens Between China vs Taiwan, Israel vs Palestine, Russia vs Ukraine | How Software Changes War & Why TikTok Should Be Banned with Matt Grimm

1380.415

This is what every AI entrepreneur says, which is like, you know, there is a very large chasm between purchase and implementation. Yes. And that has not been anywhere near closed. No, no.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Anduril Co-Founder on How a Trump Administration Changes the Defence Industry | What Happens Between China vs Taiwan, Israel vs Palestine, Russia vs Ukraine | How Software Changes War & Why TikTok Should Be Banned with Matt Grimm

1410.176

I'm putting you now in charge of the MOD, the DOD, you name your Department of Defense. What would you do to create a structure of incentives that creates risk-taking mindsets for the people buying? Yeah, a few things, man.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Anduril Co-Founder on How a Trump Administration Changes the Defence Industry | What Happens Between China vs Taiwan, Israel vs Palestine, Russia vs Ukraine | How Software Changes War & Why TikTok Should Be Banned with Matt Grimm

148.376

Brex knows that nearly 40% of startups fail because they run out of cash. So they built a banking experience that takes every dollar further. It's such a difference from traditional banking options that leave your cash sitting idle while chipping away at it with fees.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Anduril Co-Founder on How a Trump Administration Changes the Defence Industry | What Happens Between China vs Taiwan, Israel vs Palestine, Russia vs Ukraine | How Software Changes War & Why TikTok Should Be Banned with Matt Grimm

162.624

To help you protect your cash and extend your runway, Brex combined the best things about checking, treasury and FDIC insurance in one powerhouse account. You can send and receive money worldwide at lightning speed. You can get 20x the standard FDIC protection through program banks, and you can earn industry-leading yield from your first dollar while still being able to access your funds anytime.

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I'm sorry, I'm really naive. Why is that when they have a shitty structure of cost plus that doesn't really incentivize them to be that innovative? I'm struggling to understand those premiums.

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But I'm just confused because if you think about a conflict in Afghanistan, the terrain and the geography of a climate will drastically change the type of equipment that you need.

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You just mentioned the market there and the kind of the primes being structured the way they are. Is this not a bad market? Forgive me in the way that I was trained on the winner take all, winner will accrue 95% of the value and the second will take 5% of the value. The very structure of this market kind of denotes that actually no government is going to say 100% buys with Anduril. Yep.

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They will always be pretty scattered. No, and we wouldn't propose that. And they'll always be pretty scattered. Mm-hmm. And so does that go against the idea of winner take all? And is this market good as a result?

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Okay, but let's look at that. 880 versus 73. That is 8% or 8.5%. Is the US spending too much or is the UK spending too little?

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But my question to you is, was Trump right then in suggesting that the EU should be spending a lot more and the US should be spending less on EU defense? Yes, absolutely. What happens then with your five primes there? Respectfully, if they're doing buybacks and not investing in R&D, I mean this in the nicest way, do they consider Angelo a threat, do you think?

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Will we see the nationalization of different providers? And what I mean by that is, like, we have Angela in the US, we have Helsing in Europe. Will we have favored purchasing by those nations?

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What did you learn from them that they've done well that you actually want to take with you?

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If we're being blunt, do the most ambitious technology oriented people want to go and work at Lockheed? No. So have they done a good job with that?

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it is a must you have now arrived at your destination matt i am so excited for this dude we get to do it in person this is so much more special thank you for joining me yeah thank you for having me excited to be here now we uh we're at an interesting time we've obviously just had the election i just want to start how do you feel post-election are you happy about it and why

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Do you worry about the impact that has on culture? I'm the same. Because nothing's ever good enough and nothing's ever fast enough and nothing's ever right. And even when it is, it's like, well, that's what I said it should have been. Yeah. But that's not great for teams. It's good for high-performing teams. Not great for shit teams. Sure, but high-performing teams still need.

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Do you think you've raised enough? You've been lean. You could have done more. If you had the time again, could you have done the same on two? No, absolutely not. Absolutely not.

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I spoke to a founder the other day who said the hardest thing that I face today is two classes of citizens within my companies. Those that take secondaries and those that haven't. And kind of the OGs who have been there and deservedly have. Yep. How did you think about the secondary decision? The ability to let people take secondaries. How much? How to provision that?

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I don't know how to say this nicely. Angel has a lot of investors through different SPVs and family offices. The amount of angel investors I've met is a lot.

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Do you know what? I think a lot of it is, hey, one person did an SPV and got 25 investors for it. And that then leads to 25 people saying I'm an investor.

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What specifically has Andral done to be the breakout success that it is? I asked Trey the same question. He gave me a great answer, which I'll reveal to you after.

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So Trey actually said the reason why you've been successful is the composition of leaders that you have in the firm, which is able to be incredible execution in you. Incredible product mind in Palmer. Fundraising ability in Trey. Ability to sell into government as well in, you know, Brian and Trey. Very different skill sets.

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And there are a lot of defense companies where you have one of them and not any of the others. And that is not enough. Agreed. Which leads me to my other question, which is we're seeing a fuck ton of spending in defense in terms of venture investments. What happens to all these venture investments in defense companies?

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I do not think we could have a more well-versed or appropriate person for this incredible discussion today. Welcome to 20 Minute VC, and I'm so excited to welcome Matt Grimm, co-founder and COO at Anduril Industries. Anduril is an American defense technology company that specializes in advanced autonomous systems.

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As a venture investor contemplating investing in the market, what should I know that I don't know?

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Final one before we do a quick fire. Before when we were chatting, I said, oh, you know, a big thought that I've had is, you know, 10 years ago I could have moved to the Valley and I didn't. And you vociferously and passionately said that you should have done and why not now? Yep. Can you just unpack why you reacted like that?

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Do you think venture has lost its way then? Because you just said they're not going to see market for two to three years. We have in the last decade been brought up on the lean startup methodology, get product in the hands of customers, focus on SMB accounting tools and e-commerce optimization cart abandonment products. Has venture lost its way focusing on the wrong things?

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real technological innovations at the heart of them the thing that worries me though is like cleantech was a fucking horrible venture performance in 2005-2006 almost took out a couple of iconic VCs almost took out a couple and my point of saying that is just like it is a very different style of investing

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analyzing a fintech procurement platform versus analyzing angel and we have a generation of investors that are very skilled and talented at the sas investing but that is a very different capex structure company build to what we used to is this generation of venture investors equipped for that next generation

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Do you think Andrew will thrive better in a Trump administration though versus a Kamala administration?

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Gosh, your wife has a very stimulating dinner discussion, doesn't she? Yeah, let me tell you about ERP integrations.

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Yeah, in the morning, I got sanctioned by China. And then you want everything about the future of ERP. Christ, can I go back to the other college guy? Exactly. Biggest lesson from working with Peter Thiel. You were miserable before.

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Incredibly hard to implement in practice. If that were the case, would you be not investing in defense now, though? Because everyone sees defense as a very investable opportunity.

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Who's counting? 14 billion. 14 posts in the last round, yeah. Okay, so 14 posts in the last round. What does it take for Andro to be 100 billion?

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It's hard. I can't believe I'm going to ask this kind of Joe Rogan-esque question, but I'm just too intrigued. How realistic is the robo-dog weaponized with guns... As the future of war. Is that possible or am I being completely pined?

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If that is the case, surely we are destined to win. I mean this in the nicest way. But if you're fighting in the hills of Afghanistan and we have, you know, 50 robo dogs or robo planes or whatever robo we choose to have and you've got local militia or whatever it is, it's not a fair fight, is it?

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Also, the control of African mineral supply is immense. You spoke about it earlier in terms of the second, third, and fourth, and I was just actually thinking, like, when you look at their ownership of cobalt, for example. Oh, very worrying.

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And the lack of strategic expenditure that the West have had, that they have had immensely strategic expenditure in terms of their acquisition of mineral supply chains.

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Speaking of the American industrial base, though. We are going to get to kind of supply chains, but I do just want to ask, what changes specifically with regards to China and Taiwan? What changes?

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Do you think it is over-exaggerated the extent to which traditional media is bias, a weapon of the existing infrastructure? Elon has been very clear about this.

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Of course I took his side. So I can say a joke, it incites mass violence and that's okay because it was a joke. You took it wrongly. Do you believe that jokes incite mass violence? It depends on your perception of what is funny and what's not funny.

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But if we took the example that I gave, which is 10 people of a certain race with machetes around one person in the middle of another race with a caption on it, that is funny to some people in certain demographics communities. And that could incite violence in retribution to that that leads to someone dying in another community. Yeah.

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But it will ultimately, with all the repercussions you just gave, there will ultimately be an arbiter of justice on whether that was right or wrong. I say a joke, you sue me and there's a lawsuit about it. There will be an arbiter on that lawsuit.

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Meshing two things together, Dalian at Founders Fund and Europe. He said on the show, Europe is a third world country. And I mean, Keith, your boy has been like, what is that? Like just this massive, like terribly underperforming countries. Do you look at Europe honestly today and go, that's a bleak future?

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You know, you remember that. I remember my grandparents using everything and going and staying with them in literally like one room house. Yeah, sure. And it's so bad that actually, fuck, dude, I have a lovely massive bed in a beautiful apartment now that overlooks the park. And yeah, times are tough in whatever you lose a deal with. They're not really that tough. Who do you spend your time with?

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That might be true. Did you think money would make you happy? Of course. And then it didn't? Yes. Was that a hard moment?

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Final, final one. What would you do if you knew you couldn't fail? I often think about this.

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Dude, I've so loved doing this. It's conversations like this, which make me love what I do. Yeah, it's been really fun. Thank you so much for joining me.

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I mean, that was so much fun to do in person. I want to say a huge thank you to Matt for being so open with that. Quite vulnerable discussion at points. It was incredible. You can see it on YouTube by searching for 20VC. But before we leave you today, we're excited to ignite your curiosity with a journey into the world of transformative ideas.

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Must be quite a funny conversation with your wife. Like, how was your day? Oh, I just got sanctioned by China.

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20VC: Anduril Co-Founder on How a Trump Administration Changes the Defence Industry | What Happens Between China vs Taiwan, Israel vs Palestine, Russia vs Ukraine | How Software Changes War & Why TikTok Should Be Banned with Matt Grimm

52.832

To date, Anduril has raised over $3.7 billion, with the latest round pricing the company at a whopping $14 billion. Before Andrewal, Matt was a principal at Mithril alongside Peter Thiel, and before Mithril, Matt was an early hire at Palantir, where he was deployed to both Iraq and Afghanistan to ensure US forces had the best technology for the mission.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Anduril Co-Founder on How a Trump Administration Changes the Defence Industry | What Happens Between China vs Taiwan, Israel vs Palestine, Russia vs Ukraine | How Software Changes War & Why TikTok Should Be Banned with Matt Grimm

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Do you think U.S. attempts to bring back semiconductor manufacturing industry back to U.S. oil will be successful? I think it has to be.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Anduril Co-Founder on How a Trump Administration Changes the Defence Industry | What Happens Between China vs Taiwan, Israel vs Palestine, Russia vs Ukraine | How Software Changes War & Why TikTok Should Be Banned with Matt Grimm

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But before we dive in today, we're excited to ignite your curiosity with a journey into the world of transformative ideas. If you're driven by the pursuit of knowledge and personal growth, you'll love exploring the vast collection of insightful book summaries on the Blinkist app.

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20VC: Anduril Co-Founder on How a Trump Administration Changes the Defence Industry | What Happens Between China vs Taiwan, Israel vs Palestine, Russia vs Ukraine | How Software Changes War & Why TikTok Should Be Banned with Matt Grimm

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You mentioned Russia, Ukraine. How do you foresee that playing out over the next few years?

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Anduril Co-Founder on How a Trump Administration Changes the Defence Industry | What Happens Between China vs Taiwan, Israel vs Palestine, Russia vs Ukraine | How Software Changes War & Why TikTok Should Be Banned with Matt Grimm

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Do you think Trump will be able to bring the two parties together and form a resolution, as he said very clearly?

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Anduril Co-Founder on How a Trump Administration Changes the Defence Industry | What Happens Between China vs Taiwan, Israel vs Palestine, Russia vs Ukraine | How Software Changes War & Why TikTok Should Be Banned with Matt Grimm

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The final one, and then I want to get to the business itself. Israel Gaza, again, another incredibly prescient one. What happens there?

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Anduril Co-Founder on How a Trump Administration Changes the Defence Industry | What Happens Between China vs Taiwan, Israel vs Palestine, Russia vs Ukraine | How Software Changes War & Why TikTok Should Be Banned with Matt Grimm

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So with Blinkist you can access expertly crafted summaries that distill the essence of thousands of influential books allowing you to read or listen to each in just 15 minutes. I know they beat 20 VC.

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20VC: Anduril Co-Founder on How a Trump Administration Changes the Defence Industry | What Happens Between China vs Taiwan, Israel vs Palestine, Russia vs Ukraine | How Software Changes War & Why TikTok Should Be Banned with Matt Grimm

903.519

You are the biggest insurance premium to governments. I totally understand that. You mentioned, hey, we want to bring the latest technology and we want to equip Western governments to feel that they have this power and they can leverage it if needed. How is software and autonomy transforming defense?

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Tinder Founder Sean Rad on Lessons Scaling Tinder to the Fastest Growing Consumer Social App in History | Leadership Lessons Scaling Tinder | The Future of Love, Dating and Social Media | The Secret to Your Relationship with Money and Marriage

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Learn more and access a special offer for 20VC's listeners at www.theinformation.com slash deals slash 20VC. And speaking of incredible products that allows your team to do more, we need to talk about SecureFrame. SecureFrame provides incredible levels of trust to your customers through automation.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Tinder Founder Sean Rad on Lessons Scaling Tinder to the Fastest Growing Consumer Social App in History | Leadership Lessons Scaling Tinder | The Future of Love, Dating and Social Media | The Secret to Your Relationship with Money and Marriage

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Is that inevitable? These are businesses with costs. They have to post quarterly numbers. I agree with you totally. And you feel it in the product. The products today, as we said earlier, unless you pay, they're pretty horrible. And you hit paywalls. I mean, they're just bad products unless you pay. And then when you pay, it opens up. But is that just inevitable? Yeah.

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20VC: Tinder Founder Sean Rad on Lessons Scaling Tinder to the Fastest Growing Consumer Social App in History | Leadership Lessons Scaling Tinder | The Future of Love, Dating and Social Media | The Secret to Your Relationship with Money and Marriage

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SecureFrame empowers businesses to build trust with customers by simplifying information security and compliance through AI and automation. Thousands of fast-growing businesses, including NASDAQ, AngelList, Doodle, and Coda, trust SecureFrame to expedite their compliance journey for global security and privacy standards such as SOC 2, ISO 2701, and more. HIPAA, GDPR, and more.

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20VC: Tinder Founder Sean Rad on Lessons Scaling Tinder to the Fastest Growing Consumer Social App in History | Leadership Lessons Scaling Tinder | The Future of Love, Dating and Social Media | The Secret to Your Relationship with Money and Marriage

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Before we talk on nothing is forever, which I have to touch on, because you said that in a kind of wonderfully calm and cavalier manner. How do you feel about founder-led companies being so central to enduring success? This is something that, you know, we had Deleon at Founders Fund really eulogize on in terms of the importance of it. And many do, but others say no.

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20VC: Tinder Founder Sean Rad on Lessons Scaling Tinder to the Fastest Growing Consumer Social App in History | Leadership Lessons Scaling Tinder | The Future of Love, Dating and Social Media | The Secret to Your Relationship with Money and Marriage

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You can, and I hope I'm not being too spicy here, but I also heard that when you were not in the role of CEO at a point, your exec team came and said, well, if he's not in the role of CEO, we're leaving. Right. Which is quite a jarring position for anyone to be in. Can you just take me to that?

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20VC: Tinder Founder Sean Rad on Lessons Scaling Tinder to the Fastest Growing Consumer Social App in History | Leadership Lessons Scaling Tinder | The Future of Love, Dating and Social Media | The Secret to Your Relationship with Money and Marriage

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Backed by top-tier investors and corporations such as Google, Kleiner Perkins, the company is among the Forbes list of top 100 startup employers for 2023 and Business Insider's list of the 34 most promising AI startups of 2023. Learn more today at secureframe.com. It really is a must.

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20VC: Tinder Founder Sean Rad on Lessons Scaling Tinder to the Fastest Growing Consumer Social App in History | Leadership Lessons Scaling Tinder | The Future of Love, Dating and Social Media | The Secret to Your Relationship with Money and Marriage

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I have to ask, I was thinking this ever since you said it, but I so agree with you when you said about product market fit comes in kind of chapters. When you look back on the different chapters, which was the hardest one? Was it international expansion? New city? If so, what city? What country? Was it new product? If so, what product? What segment was the hardest in unlocking the next?

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20VC: Tinder Founder Sean Rad on Lessons Scaling Tinder to the Fastest Growing Consumer Social App in History | Leadership Lessons Scaling Tinder | The Future of Love, Dating and Social Media | The Secret to Your Relationship with Money and Marriage

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And finally, a company is nothing without its people, and so I want to talk about Cooley, the global law firm built around startups and venture capital. Since forming the first venture fund in Silicon Valley, Cooley has formed more venture capital funds than any other law firm in the world, with 60 plus years working with VCs.

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20VC: Tinder Founder Sean Rad on Lessons Scaling Tinder to the Fastest Growing Consumer Social App in History | Leadership Lessons Scaling Tinder | The Future of Love, Dating and Social Media | The Secret to Your Relationship with Money and Marriage

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Okay. In hyperscaling, you have so many decisions coming at you so fast. What did you do that you wish you hadn't done?

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20VC: Tinder Founder Sean Rad on Lessons Scaling Tinder to the Fastest Growing Consumer Social App in History | Leadership Lessons Scaling Tinder | The Future of Love, Dating and Social Media | The Secret to Your Relationship with Money and Marriage

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They help VCs form and manage funds, make investments, and handle the myriad issues that arise through a fund's lifetime. We use them at 20 VC and have loved working with their teams in the US, London and Asia over the last few years.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Tinder Founder Sean Rad on Lessons Scaling Tinder to the Fastest Growing Consumer Social App in History | Leadership Lessons Scaling Tinder | The Future of Love, Dating and Social Media | The Secret to Your Relationship with Money and Marriage

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So to learn more about the number one most active law firm representing VC-backed companies going public, head over to cooley.com and also cooleygo.com, Cooley's award-winning free legal resource for entrepreneurs. You have now arrived at your destination. Sean, I am so excited for this, dude. I've been looking forward to this one for a while. So thank you so much for joining me today, man.

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20VC: Tinder Founder Sean Rad on Lessons Scaling Tinder to the Fastest Growing Consumer Social App in History | Leadership Lessons Scaling Tinder | The Future of Love, Dating and Social Media | The Secret to Your Relationship with Money and Marriage

2070.61

How effective was paid in the early days? I'm just thinking about what you said there on constraints. If you don't have the constraints, you can spend a lot of money on paid.

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20VC: Tinder Founder Sean Rad on Lessons Scaling Tinder to the Fastest Growing Consumer Social App in History | Leadership Lessons Scaling Tinder | The Future of Love, Dating and Social Media | The Secret to Your Relationship with Money and Marriage

2172.496

The free is smart because it removes the desperation. The hard thing is you don't want to be paid for it and it's too desperate. I am intrigued, you said about kind of the curation on liking. How do you feel about the league, which takes it to the extreme, which has like three per day and that's all you're going to get?

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20VC: Tinder Founder Sean Rad on Lessons Scaling Tinder to the Fastest Growing Consumer Social App in History | Leadership Lessons Scaling Tinder | The Future of Love, Dating and Social Media | The Secret to Your Relationship with Money and Marriage

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My pleasure. Happy to be here. Dude, it's been so long. I want to start with a bit of a kind of tougher one. You tie your identity to your company as a founder, and suddenly it's no longer part of you. How did you deal with that detachment from identity when no longer CEO of Tinder? Yeah.

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20VC: Tinder Founder Sean Rad on Lessons Scaling Tinder to the Fastest Growing Consumer Social App in History | Leadership Lessons Scaling Tinder | The Future of Love, Dating and Social Media | The Secret to Your Relationship with Money and Marriage

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Do you agree with Whitney's take that we're going to have essentially AIs talk to each other, coalesce, see if you like me and I like you AI, and then we both like tennis, form a match? Is that how we'll have like a virtual dating self? Yeah.

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20VC: Tinder Founder Sean Rad on Lessons Scaling Tinder to the Fastest Growing Consumer Social App in History | Leadership Lessons Scaling Tinder | The Future of Love, Dating and Social Media | The Secret to Your Relationship with Money and Marriage

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I didn't have money when I grew up. And I read on the tin that when you got money, you would be happy. I got a little bit of money, not quite nearly as much as you did from Tinder, but I wasn't very happy. And it was a very awkward time of like, shit, if the thing I've always been chasing isn't actually the thing that I was promised it was, what do I do now?

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20VC: Tinder Founder Sean Rad on Lessons Scaling Tinder to the Fastest Growing Consumer Social App in History | Leadership Lessons Scaling Tinder | The Future of Love, Dating and Social Media | The Secret to Your Relationship with Money and Marriage

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At what stage does it complicate? Because at some stage you have to have a family office and then you have to have people to manage your family office and then taxes become a complete nightmare and all of this becomes chains.

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20VC: Tinder Founder Sean Rad on Lessons Scaling Tinder to the Fastest Growing Consumer Social App in History | Leadership Lessons Scaling Tinder | The Future of Love, Dating and Social Media | The Secret to Your Relationship with Money and Marriage

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Do you think that's actually the case? I'm sorry, I don't mean to be provocative, but when we look at the price of food today, when we look at the increasing homelessness, when we look at the increasing levels of drug addiction, does it not feel like the standard of living is getting much better?

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20VC: Tinder Founder Sean Rad on Lessons Scaling Tinder to the Fastest Growing Consumer Social App in History | Leadership Lessons Scaling Tinder | The Future of Love, Dating and Social Media | The Secret to Your Relationship with Money and Marriage

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I won't actually, because I'm legally not allowed. I'm not allowed to drive, Sean. So I'd have to sit in it stationary, but I wouldn't enjoy it. So then you decide, okay, I'm going to do a family office and I'm going to invest a lot more work, a lot more hands-on with many more companies. Yeah. Why, why not do another company? You said you had a 10 year.

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20VC: Tinder Founder Sean Rad on Lessons Scaling Tinder to the Fastest Growing Consumer Social App in History | Leadership Lessons Scaling Tinder | The Future of Love, Dating and Social Media | The Secret to Your Relationship with Money and Marriage

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And so you have a CEO for each business. Yes. That runs day to day, and then you finance and do strategy with them.

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20VC: Tinder Founder Sean Rad on Lessons Scaling Tinder to the Fastest Growing Consumer Social App in History | Leadership Lessons Scaling Tinder | The Future of Love, Dating and Social Media | The Secret to Your Relationship with Money and Marriage

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Did you have a clear strategy from day one? I'm going to put 25% in directs, 25% in funds, 25% in cash, 25% in property?

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20VC: Tinder Founder Sean Rad on Lessons Scaling Tinder to the Fastest Growing Consumer Social App in History | Leadership Lessons Scaling Tinder | The Future of Love, Dating and Social Media | The Secret to Your Relationship with Money and Marriage

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What was the worst investment and lessons from it? If you don't want to say what it actually was, by all means, but what were the lessons from it?

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20VC: Tinder Founder Sean Rad on Lessons Scaling Tinder to the Fastest Growing Consumer Social App in History | Leadership Lessons Scaling Tinder | The Future of Love, Dating and Social Media | The Secret to Your Relationship with Money and Marriage

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Good segue. Thank you for that. That's very nice. You team me up perfectly because I think you literally must have facilitated more love in the world than anyone else in human history. 50 billion matches, according to your Twitter bio. My question to you is you have an incredible relationship with your other half.

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20VC: Tinder Founder Sean Rad on Lessons Scaling Tinder to the Fastest Growing Consumer Social App in History | Leadership Lessons Scaling Tinder | The Future of Love, Dating and Social Media | The Secret to Your Relationship with Money and Marriage

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This is 20VC with me, Harry Stebbings, and what a show we have in store for you today. Sean Radd, founder of Tinder, the man who has facilitated more love than anyone else in human history. Did you know Tinder has made, check this out, over 50 billion, 50 billion matches. Truly insane. Sean is also the founder of Radd Ventures, which has made over 100 investments in both companies and funds.

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20VC: Tinder Founder Sean Rad on Lessons Scaling Tinder to the Fastest Growing Consumer Social App in History | Leadership Lessons Scaling Tinder | The Future of Love, Dating and Social Media | The Secret to Your Relationship with Money and Marriage

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Listen, dude, there's one thing I want to discuss before we do a quick fire. And it's, you said kind of cavalierly almost that things end. It almost seemed quite natural. My question that I have for you is how do you think about your own spirituality? How do you think about dying? Just talk to me about that. I think it's quite an important one.

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20VC: Tinder Founder Sean Rad on Lessons Scaling Tinder to the Fastest Growing Consumer Social App in History | Leadership Lessons Scaling Tinder | The Future of Love, Dating and Social Media | The Secret to Your Relationship with Money and Marriage

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Do you think that's the case for many companies today? I look at many companies and I'm like, actually, they are individual led in so many respects. And if you were to take some of those great individuals out, it's tough.

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20VC: Tinder Founder Sean Rad on Lessons Scaling Tinder to the Fastest Growing Consumer Social App in History | Leadership Lessons Scaling Tinder | The Future of Love, Dating and Social Media | The Secret to Your Relationship with Money and Marriage

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I agree with that completely. I think it also makes for problems in relationships. Did making a lot of money change the dynamic of your relationship?

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20VC: Tinder Founder Sean Rad on Lessons Scaling Tinder to the Fastest Growing Consumer Social App in History | Leadership Lessons Scaling Tinder | The Future of Love, Dating and Social Media | The Secret to Your Relationship with Money and Marriage

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Sorry, I'm being specific, but a lot of founders go like, I don't get it. Like, is 5 million in secondary for a founder too much? Would you say, whoa, Harry?

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20VC: Tinder Founder Sean Rad on Lessons Scaling Tinder to the Fastest Growing Consumer Social App in History | Leadership Lessons Scaling Tinder | The Future of Love, Dating and Social Media | The Secret to Your Relationship with Money and Marriage

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I could talk to you all day, but I do want to do a quick fire round. So I'm going to give you short. Okay. So what do you believe that most around you disbelieve?

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UK is pretty great too, but... No, we are an ailing economy that is slowly moving into complete irrelevance. But I find it funny because you wonderful Americans still love to spend your wonderful US dollars on our soil and go, ah, Hermes on Bond Street.

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There we go. We should just embrace hospitality as the only thing that we have and recognize... I'm being serious. Like, you know what? Fuck it. Just take everyone's dollars and get them all to come here. But you feel America is in good shape. Do you think DEI is bullshit and the woke mind virus is this cancerous thing pervading society?

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20VC: Tinder Founder Sean Rad on Lessons Scaling Tinder to the Fastest Growing Consumer Social App in History | Leadership Lessons Scaling Tinder | The Future of Love, Dating and Social Media | The Secret to Your Relationship with Money and Marriage

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Dude, as you said, there's not many questions that I haven't asked here. I can't thank you enough for being so open. This has been incredible and I really appreciate it. Thanks, buddy. This was really fun. Now shows like that are why I love doing what I do. I interviewed Sean many years ago, we stayed friends, and having the ability to have that great conversation is just really special.

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20VC: Tinder Founder Sean Rad on Lessons Scaling Tinder to the Fastest Growing Consumer Social App in History | Leadership Lessons Scaling Tinder | The Future of Love, Dating and Social Media | The Secret to Your Relationship with Money and Marriage

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You can watch the full video on YouTube by searching for 20VC, that's two zero VC. But before we leave you today, when a promising startup files for an IPO or a venture capital firm loses its marquee partner, being the first to know gives you an advantage and time to plan your strategic response. Chances are the information reported it first.

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The information is the trusted source for that important first look at actionable news across technology and finance, driving decisions with breaking stories, proprietary data tools and a spotlight on industry trends. With a subscription, you will join an elite community that includes leaders from the top VC firms, CEOs from Fortune 500 companies and esteemed banking and investment professionals.

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In addition to must-read journalism in your inbox every day, you'll engage with fellow leaders in their active discussions or in person at exclusive events. Learn more and access a special offer for 20VC's listeners at www.theinformation.com slash deals slash 20VC. And speaking of incredible products that allows your team to do more, we need to talk about SecureFrame.

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20VC: Tinder Founder Sean Rad on Lessons Scaling Tinder to the Fastest Growing Consumer Social App in History | Leadership Lessons Scaling Tinder | The Future of Love, Dating and Social Media | The Secret to Your Relationship with Money and Marriage

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SecureFrame provides incredible levels of trust to your customers through automation. SecureFrame empowers businesses to build trust with customers by simplifying information security and compliance through AI and automation. Thousands of fast-growing businesses, including NASDAQ, AngelList, Doodle, and Coda trust SecureFrame to expedite their compliance journey

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20VC: Tinder Founder Sean Rad on Lessons Scaling Tinder to the Fastest Growing Consumer Social App in History | Leadership Lessons Scaling Tinder | The Future of Love, Dating and Social Media | The Secret to Your Relationship with Money and Marriage

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We mentioned that kind of, it's a collection of people coming together to achieve a mission. I do want to kind of rewind the clock back. I hear there's some great stories that I have to unpack. I just want to start at the beginning, which is like, when we think about the inspiration, we forget today just how revolutionary the swipe was.

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20VC: Tinder Founder Sean Rad on Lessons Scaling Tinder to the Fastest Growing Consumer Social App in History | Leadership Lessons Scaling Tinder | The Future of Love, Dating and Social Media | The Secret to Your Relationship with Money and Marriage

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for global security and privacy standards such as SOC 2, ISO 2701, HIPAA, GDPR, and more. Backed by top-tier investors and corporations such as Google, Kleiner Perkins, the company is among the Forbes list of top 100 startup employers for 2023 and Business Insider's list of the 34 most promising AI startups of 2023. Learn more today at secureframe.com. It really is a must.

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20VC: Tinder Founder Sean Rad on Lessons Scaling Tinder to the Fastest Growing Consumer Social App in History | Leadership Lessons Scaling Tinder | The Future of Love, Dating and Social Media | The Secret to Your Relationship with Money and Marriage

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And finally, a company is nothing without its people, the global law firm built around startups and venture capital. Since forming the first venture fund in Silicon Valley, Cooley has formed more venture capital funds than any other law firm in the world, with 60 plus years working with VCs.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Tinder Founder Sean Rad on Lessons Scaling Tinder to the Fastest Growing Consumer Social App in History | Leadership Lessons Scaling Tinder | The Future of Love, Dating and Social Media | The Secret to Your Relationship with Money and Marriage

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They help VCs form and manage funds, make investments, and handle the myriad issues that arise through a fund's lifetime. We use them at 20 VC and have loved working with their teams in the US, London and Asia over the last few years.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Tinder Founder Sean Rad on Lessons Scaling Tinder to the Fastest Growing Consumer Social App in History | Leadership Lessons Scaling Tinder | The Future of Love, Dating and Social Media | The Secret to Your Relationship with Money and Marriage

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So to learn more about the number one most active law firm representing VC-backed companies going public, head over to cooley.com and also cooleygo.com, Cooley's award-winning free legal resource for entrepreneurs. As always, I so appreciate all your support and stay tuned for an incredible episode coming this Wednesday.

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20VC: Tinder Founder Sean Rad on Lessons Scaling Tinder to the Fastest Growing Consumer Social App in History | Leadership Lessons Scaling Tinder | The Future of Love, Dating and Social Media | The Secret to Your Relationship with Money and Marriage

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I might've been on a swipe swipe before this interview, which shows you the importance you have to pay if you want to be successful on dating apps today. But it was such an innovation. Tell me, what was the inspiration behind Tinder? And when you go back, what did that look like?

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20VC: Tinder Founder Sean Rad on Lessons Scaling Tinder to the Fastest Growing Consumer Social App in History | Leadership Lessons Scaling Tinder | The Future of Love, Dating and Social Media | The Secret to Your Relationship with Money and Marriage

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Do you remember when you released it? Do you remember when you pressed go live? Yes. What does it look like from there? Does usage just go skyrocket from the moment you start?

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20VC: Tinder Founder Sean Rad on Lessons Scaling Tinder to the Fastest Growing Consumer Social App in History | Leadership Lessons Scaling Tinder | The Future of Love, Dating and Social Media | The Secret to Your Relationship with Money and Marriage

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This was such a fun show to do. We recorded one eight years ago or so and so this was very special to do again and you can find the video of the interview on youtube at 20 vc but before we dive in when a promising startup files for an ipo or a venture capital firm loses its marquee partner being the first to know gives you an advantage and time to plan your strategic response

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Tinder Founder Sean Rad on Lessons Scaling Tinder to the Fastest Growing Consumer Social App in History | Leadership Lessons Scaling Tinder | The Future of Love, Dating and Social Media | The Secret to Your Relationship with Money and Marriage

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So we have 700 people and we have the initial spark and we start to see that outgrow from the core. What happens then?

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20VC: Tinder Founder Sean Rad on Lessons Scaling Tinder to the Fastest Growing Consumer Social App in History | Leadership Lessons Scaling Tinder | The Future of Love, Dating and Social Media | The Secret to Your Relationship with Money and Marriage

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Let's just delve into that then. It's on the product. But first of all, we do distribution. A generation has been told about the lean startup. Just ship, get it out there, see what works. Oh, A lot of other people say, no, actually, you need to be a lot more of a craftsperson and really build a great product experience and be very deliberate about it. Which side of the fence do you sit on?

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20VC: Tinder Founder Sean Rad on Lessons Scaling Tinder to the Fastest Growing Consumer Social App in History | Leadership Lessons Scaling Tinder | The Future of Love, Dating and Social Media | The Secret to Your Relationship with Money and Marriage

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Chances are the information reported it first. The information is the trusted source for that important first look at actionable news across technology and finance, driving decisions with breaking stories, proprietary data tools and a spotlight on industry trends.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Tinder Founder Sean Rad on Lessons Scaling Tinder to the Fastest Growing Consumer Social App in History | Leadership Lessons Scaling Tinder | The Future of Love, Dating and Social Media | The Secret to Your Relationship with Money and Marriage

898.187

The one-shot wow, is that for you, match? Is that for you, surfacing a girl that someone finds pretty? Is that for you, surfacing a friend? What was the wow moment that you craved and coveted in those early days?

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Tinder Founder Sean Rad on Lessons Scaling Tinder to the Fastest Growing Consumer Social App in History | Leadership Lessons Scaling Tinder | The Future of Love, Dating and Social Media | The Secret to Your Relationship with Money and Marriage

919.002

I think product marketing is such an important skill. And I always say to founders, be as narrow as possible because you want to find your thousand true fans. You want to find those people that go, yes, that's me.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Tinder Founder Sean Rad on Lessons Scaling Tinder to the Fastest Growing Consumer Social App in History | Leadership Lessons Scaling Tinder | The Future of Love, Dating and Social Media | The Secret to Your Relationship with Money and Marriage

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With a subscription, you will join an elite community that includes leaders from the top VC firms, CEOs from Fortune 500 companies and esteemed banking and investment professionals. In addition to must-read journalism in your inbox every day, you'll engage with fellow leaders in their active discussions or in person at exclusive events.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Tinder Founder Sean Rad on Lessons Scaling Tinder to the Fastest Growing Consumer Social App in History | Leadership Lessons Scaling Tinder | The Future of Love, Dating and Social Media | The Secret to Your Relationship with Money and Marriage

990.437

How did you define a retained user? You know, at Facebook, they said like after five friends have been added, we count that as like a retained and activated user. How do you count a retained user?

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Raising $500M To Compete in the Race for AGI | Will Scaling Laws Continue: Is Access to Compute Everything | Will Nvidia Continue To Dominate | The Biggest Bottlenecks in the Race for AGI with Eiso Kant, CTO @ Poolside

113.262

Whether you're just starting out or managing a growing brand, Squarespace makes it easy to create a beautiful website, engage with your audience, and sell anything from products to content, all in one place, all on your terms. What's blown me away is the Squarespace Blueprint AI and SEO tools.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Raising $500M To Compete in the Race for AGI | Will Scaling Laws Continue: Is Access to Compute Everything | Will Nvidia Continue To Dominate | The Biggest Bottlenecks in the Race for AGI with Eiso Kant, CTO @ Poolside

128.969

It's like crafting your site with a guided system, ensuring it not only reflects your unique style, but also ranks well on search engines. Plus, their flexible payment options cater to every customer's needs, making transactions smooth and hassle-free. And the Squarespace AI? It's a content wizard helping you whip up text that truly resonates with your brand voice.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Raising $500M To Compete in the Race for AGI | Will Scaling Laws Continue: Is Access to Compute Everything | Will Nvidia Continue To Dominate | The Biggest Bottlenecks in the Race for AGI with Eiso Kant, CTO @ Poolside

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So if you're ready to get started, head to squarespace.com for a free trial. And when you're ready to launch, go to squarespace.com slash 20VC to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain. And finally, before we dive into the show, I want to recommend a book, The Road to Reinvention, a New York Times bestseller on mastering change. No time to read?

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Raising $500M To Compete in the Race for AGI | Will Scaling Laws Continue: Is Access to Compute Everything | Will Nvidia Continue To Dominate | The Biggest Bottlenecks in the Race for AGI with Eiso Kant, CTO @ Poolside

169.961

Listen to 20VC now, then download the Blinkist app to fit key reads into your schedule with Blinkist. you can grasp the core ideas of over 7,500 non-fiction books and podcasts in just 15 minutes, covering psychology, marketing, business, and more. It's no surprise 82% of Blinkist users see themselves as self-optimizers, and 65% say it's essential for business and career growth.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Raising $500M To Compete in the Race for AGI | Will Scaling Laws Continue: Is Access to Compute Everything | Will Nvidia Continue To Dominate | The Biggest Bottlenecks in the Race for AGI with Eiso Kant, CTO @ Poolside

195.006

Speaking of business, Blinkist is a trusted L&D partner for industry leaders like Amazon, Hyundai and KPMG UK, empowering over 32 million users since 2012. As a 20VC listener, you can enjoy an exclusive 25% discount on Blinkist. That's B-L-I-N-K-I-S-T. Just visit Blinkist.com to claim your discount and transform the way you learn. You have now arrived at your destination.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Raising $500M To Compete in the Race for AGI | Will Scaling Laws Continue: Is Access to Compute Everything | Will Nvidia Continue To Dominate | The Biggest Bottlenecks in the Race for AGI with Eiso Kant, CTO @ Poolside

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This is 20VC with me, Harry Stebbings, and there could not be a better time for this episode. Just last week, Poolside announced their Series B, a $500 million round, valuing the company at $3 billion. Today, we're joined by their co-founder and CEO, Iso Cant. This is an incredible episode on the future of LLMs, the race for AGI, how the chip and compute layer evolves, and so much more.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Raising $500M To Compete in the Race for AGI | Will Scaling Laws Continue: Is Access to Compute Everything | Will Nvidia Continue To Dominate | The Biggest Bottlenecks in the Race for AGI with Eiso Kant, CTO @ Poolside

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My word, I love doing that show. If you want to watch the full interview, you can find it on YouTube by searching for 20VC, where you can see ISO in the studio. It was a fantastic one. But before we leave you today, this episode is presented by Brex, the financial stack founders can bank on. Brex knows that nearly 40% of startups fail because they run out of cash.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Raising $500M To Compete in the Race for AGI | Will Scaling Laws Continue: Is Access to Compute Everything | Will Nvidia Continue To Dominate | The Biggest Bottlenecks in the Race for AGI with Eiso Kant, CTO @ Poolside

4062.779

So they built a banking experience that takes every dollar further. It's a stark difference from traditional banking options that leave your cash sitting idle while chipping away at it with fees. To help you protect your cash and extend your runway, Brex combined the best things about checking, treasury and FDIC insurance in one powerhouse account.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Raising $500M To Compete in the Race for AGI | Will Scaling Laws Continue: Is Access to Compute Everything | Will Nvidia Continue To Dominate | The Biggest Bottlenecks in the Race for AGI with Eiso Kant, CTO @ Poolside

4083.307

You can send and receive money worldwide at lightning speed. You can get 20x the standard FDIC protection through program banks. and you can earn industry-leading yield from your first dollar while still being able to access your funds anytime, Brex is a top choice for startups. In fact, it's used by one in every three startups in the US. To join them, visit brex.com slash startups.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Raising $500M To Compete in the Race for AGI | Will Scaling Laws Continue: Is Access to Compute Everything | Will Nvidia Continue To Dominate | The Biggest Bottlenecks in the Race for AGI with Eiso Kant, CTO @ Poolside

4106.245

And finally, let's talk about Squarespace. Squarespace is the all-in-one website platform for entrepreneurs to stand out and succeed online. Whether you're just starting out or managing a growing brand, Squarespace makes it easy to create a beautiful website, engage with your audience, and sell anything from products to content, all in one place, all on your terms.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Raising $500M To Compete in the Race for AGI | Will Scaling Laws Continue: Is Access to Compute Everything | Will Nvidia Continue To Dominate | The Biggest Bottlenecks in the Race for AGI with Eiso Kant, CTO @ Poolside

4125.822

What's blown me away is the Squarespace Blueprint AI and SEO tools. It's like crafting your site with a guided system. ensuring it not only reflects your unique style, but also ranks well on search engines. Plus, their flexible payment options cater to every customer's needs, making transactions smooth and hassle-free. And the Squarespace AI?

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Raising $500M To Compete in the Race for AGI | Will Scaling Laws Continue: Is Access to Compute Everything | Will Nvidia Continue To Dominate | The Biggest Bottlenecks in the Race for AGI with Eiso Kant, CTO @ Poolside

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It's a content wizard helping you whip up text that truly resonates with your brand voice. So if you're ready to get started, head to squarespace.com for a free trial. And when you're ready to launch, go to squarespace.com slash 20VC to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Raising $500M To Compete in the Race for AGI | Will Scaling Laws Continue: Is Access to Compute Everything | Will Nvidia Continue To Dominate | The Biggest Bottlenecks in the Race for AGI with Eiso Kant, CTO @ Poolside

4162.208

And finally, before we dive into the show, I want to recommend a book, The Road to Reinvention, a New York Times bestseller on mastering change. No time to read? Listen to 20VC now, then download the Blinkist app to fit key reads into your schedule. With Blinkist, you can grasp the core ideas of over 7,500 nonfiction books and podcasts.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Raising $500M To Compete in the Race for AGI | Will Scaling Laws Continue: Is Access to Compute Everything | Will Nvidia Continue To Dominate | The Biggest Bottlenecks in the Race for AGI with Eiso Kant, CTO @ Poolside

4182.495

in just 15 minutes covering psychology, marketing, business and more. It's no surprise 82% of Blinkist users see themselves as self-optimizers and 65% say it's essential for business and career growth. Speaking of business, Blinkist is a trusted L&D partner for industry leaders like Amazon, Hyundai and KPMG UK, empowering over 32 million users since 2012 as a 20VC listener.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Raising $500M To Compete in the Race for AGI | Will Scaling Laws Continue: Is Access to Compute Everything | Will Nvidia Continue To Dominate | The Biggest Bottlenecks in the Race for AGI with Eiso Kant, CTO @ Poolside

4207.577

you can enjoy an exclusive 25% discount on Blinkist. That's B-L-I-N-K-I-S-T. Just visit Blinkist.com slash 20VC to claim your discount and transform the way you learn. As always, I so appreciate all your support and stay tuned for an incredible episode on Wednesday with Jeff Wang at Sequoia, who runs their $10 billion hedge fund. An incredible show to come there.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Raising $500M To Compete in the Race for AGI | Will Scaling Laws Continue: Is Access to Compute Everything | Will Nvidia Continue To Dominate | The Biggest Bottlenecks in the Race for AGI with Eiso Kant, CTO @ Poolside

52.267

But before we dive in, this episode is presented by Brex. the financial stack founders can bank on. Brex knows that nearly 40% of startups fail because they run out of cash, so they built a banking experience that takes every dollar further. It's a stark difference from traditional banking options that leave your cash sitting idle while chipping away at it with fees.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Raising $500M To Compete in the Race for AGI | Will Scaling Laws Continue: Is Access to Compute Everything | Will Nvidia Continue To Dominate | The Biggest Bottlenecks in the Race for AGI with Eiso Kant, CTO @ Poolside

72.194

To help you protect your cash and extend your runway, Brex combined the best things about checking, treasury and FDIC insurance in one powerhouse account. You can send and receive money worldwide at lightning speed. You can get 20x the standard FDIC protection through program banks. And you can earn industry-leading yield from your first dollar while still being able to access your funds anytime.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Raising $500M To Compete in the Race for AGI | Will Scaling Laws Continue: Is Access to Compute Everything | Will Nvidia Continue To Dominate | The Biggest Bottlenecks in the Race for AGI with Eiso Kant, CTO @ Poolside

96.372

Brex is a top choice for startups. In fact, it's used by one in every three startups in the U.S., To join them, visit brex.com slash startups. And finally, let's talk about Squarespace. Squarespace is the all-in-one website platform for entrepreneurs to stand out and succeed online.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20Growth: Uber's Expansion Playbook for Scaling from 10 Cities to $10BN in Revenue | How Uber Acquired 1M Drivers | How Uber Solved the Chicken and The Egg Problem in New Markets and What Uber Would Be Like with Travis Still There with Scott Gorlick

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Not hugely dissimilar to consumer subscription, to be honest. How did the product offering look when you were doing Atlanta and the subsequent city rollout in terms of the different tiers of Ubers in terms of luxury? What did that look like?

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20Growth: Uber's Expansion Playbook for Scaling from 10 Cities to $10BN in Revenue | How Uber Acquired 1M Drivers | How Uber Solved the Chicken and The Egg Problem in New Markets and What Uber Would Be Like with Travis Still There with Scott Gorlick

1054.595

Well, did it explode from pretty much day one? Like was there immediate product market fit on UberX?

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20Growth: Uber's Expansion Playbook for Scaling from 10 Cities to $10BN in Revenue | How Uber Acquired 1M Drivers | How Uber Solved the Chicken and The Egg Problem in New Markets and What Uber Would Be Like with Travis Still There with Scott Gorlick

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They offer real insights and solutions tailored to their needs. With Outgrow's powerful no-code builder, you can create these engaging maturity assessments. The magic here is in showing your audience how you can help them level up in specific areas. If you sell analytics software, you can show users where they excel and where they're lagging.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20Growth: Uber's Expansion Playbook for Scaling from 10 Cities to $10BN in Revenue | How Uber Acquired 1M Drivers | How Uber Solved the Chicken and The Egg Problem in New Markets and What Uber Would Be Like with Travis Still There with Scott Gorlick

1094.788

That is impressive. How much money did that cost? But the idea is then you get a habit in the consumer, they build a habit of forming exercise with it and then retain.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20Growth: Uber's Expansion Playbook for Scaling from 10 Cities to $10BN in Revenue | How Uber Acquired 1M Drivers | How Uber Solved the Chicken and The Egg Problem in New Markets and What Uber Would Be Like with Travis Still There with Scott Gorlick

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Would you say now with the benefit of hindsight, free UberX week was incredibly, incredibly instrumental to the success of UberX?

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20Growth: Uber's Expansion Playbook for Scaling from 10 Cities to $10BN in Revenue | How Uber Acquired 1M Drivers | How Uber Solved the Chicken and The Egg Problem in New Markets and What Uber Would Be Like with Travis Still There with Scott Gorlick

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If your software can help them where the user's lagging, then you can clearly add value. By offering the detailed results in the maturity assessment, you're not just generating leads, you're educating users.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20Growth: Uber's Expansion Playbook for Scaling from 10 Cities to $10BN in Revenue | How Uber Acquired 1M Drivers | How Uber Solved the Chicken and The Egg Problem in New Markets and What Uber Would Be Like with Travis Still There with Scott Gorlick

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Talking about the differentiator there, being on the ground, being in person, when you launch a new city, can you just talk me through that city playbook rollout? Do you just pick random people and send them? How many do you pick? What's the organization? Can you just walk me through that?

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20Growth: Uber's Expansion Playbook for Scaling from 10 Cities to $10BN in Revenue | How Uber Acquired 1M Drivers | How Uber Solved the Chicken and The Egg Problem in New Markets and What Uber Would Be Like with Travis Still There with Scott Gorlick

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So if you want to turbocharge your demand generation and build assessments like assess your AWS setup or evaluate your integration capabilities, head over to outgrow.co slash 20growth, that's O-U-T-G-R-O-W-D-O-T-C-E-O slash 20growth to get 20% off annual plans and a free trial. Now that your leads are sorted, let's get your team in sync with Canva.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20Growth: Uber's Expansion Playbook for Scaling from 10 Cities to $10BN in Revenue | How Uber Acquired 1M Drivers | How Uber Solved the Chicken and The Egg Problem in New Markets and What Uber Would Be Like with Travis Still There with Scott Gorlick

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Okay, so they're sitting in an office day to day and they have complete free reign over the city. How does that control and decision making look like from their perspective?

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20Growth: Uber's Expansion Playbook for Scaling from 10 Cities to $10BN in Revenue | How Uber Acquired 1M Drivers | How Uber Solved the Chicken and The Egg Problem in New Markets and What Uber Would Be Like with Travis Still There with Scott Gorlick

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Were there cities that were clearly behind and struggling? And what were the reasons for those struggling cities?

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20Growth: Uber's Expansion Playbook for Scaling from 10 Cities to $10BN in Revenue | How Uber Acquired 1M Drivers | How Uber Solved the Chicken and The Egg Problem in New Markets and What Uber Would Be Like with Travis Still There with Scott Gorlick

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When you get a regulatory warning, when you get regulatory controls put on you, how does that feel? What does that look like? Can you take me to one?

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20Growth: Uber's Expansion Playbook for Scaling from 10 Cities to $10BN in Revenue | How Uber Acquired 1M Drivers | How Uber Solved the Chicken and The Egg Problem in New Markets and What Uber Would Be Like with Travis Still There with Scott Gorlick

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When I spoke to Canva co-founder Cliff Obrecht on the podcast last year, he touched on how visual content is fast becoming the fuel that's driving the modern workplace. Your team needs to create an engaging visual pitch deck to sell in an idea. A product launch needs an inspiring video to excite investors and customers. Projects gather steam with visual whiteboards. That's where Canva can help.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20Growth: Uber's Expansion Playbook for Scaling from 10 Cities to $10BN in Revenue | How Uber Acquired 1M Drivers | How Uber Solved the Chicken and The Egg Problem in New Markets and What Uber Would Be Like with Travis Still There with Scott Gorlick

1672.87

We mentioned kind of reckless versus necessary playing the game on the field. How much of an impact did promos have, discounts have? How much of an impact did that have in driving early demand?

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20Growth: Uber's Expansion Playbook for Scaling from 10 Cities to $10BN in Revenue | How Uber Acquired 1M Drivers | How Uber Solved the Chicken and The Egg Problem in New Markets and What Uber Would Be Like with Travis Still There with Scott Gorlick

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There's some elements which at the time seems brilliant. And with hindsight, you're like, that was really stupid. What at the time seemed brilliant that you look back on and are like, I can't believe we did that.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20Growth: Uber's Expansion Playbook for Scaling from 10 Cities to $10BN in Revenue | How Uber Acquired 1M Drivers | How Uber Solved the Chicken and The Egg Problem in New Markets and What Uber Would Be Like with Travis Still There with Scott Gorlick

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In the maturation of Uber as a company, With the transition of TK out and Dara in, do you think they slowly ingratiated that the regulator is our friend, friendly face?

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20Growth: Uber's Expansion Playbook for Scaling from 10 Cities to $10BN in Revenue | How Uber Acquired 1M Drivers | How Uber Solved the Chicken and The Egg Problem in New Markets and What Uber Would Be Like with Travis Still There with Scott Gorlick

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It's a game changer for visual communication at work. Canva turns your team into master visual communicators so they can get their point across with visual impact inside and outside your business with no design experience needed. With Canva, any team member and any company, whether you're a startup or a global organization, can design compelling on-brand visual content quickly and easily.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20Growth: Uber's Expansion Playbook for Scaling from 10 Cities to $10BN in Revenue | How Uber Acquired 1M Drivers | How Uber Solved the Chicken and The Egg Problem in New Markets and What Uber Would Be Like with Travis Still There with Scott Gorlick

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What's your favorite lesson from working with Travis? You saw him across different stages, across different expansion segments. When you look back, what was your biggest takeaway or lesson from seeing him operate?

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20Growth: Uber's Expansion Playbook for Scaling from 10 Cities to $10BN in Revenue | How Uber Acquired 1M Drivers | How Uber Solved the Chicken and The Egg Problem in New Markets and What Uber Would Be Like with Travis Still There with Scott Gorlick

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Do you think it was the right thing for him to move on? I don't think so. Where would it be now if he was still there?

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20Growth: Uber's Expansion Playbook for Scaling from 10 Cities to $10BN in Revenue | How Uber Acquired 1M Drivers | How Uber Solved the Chicken and The Egg Problem in New Markets and What Uber Would Be Like with Travis Still There with Scott Gorlick

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How do you think it would have been different though? Do you think it would be more products? Do you think it would be more countries, different brands? How do you think about a Travis versus a Dara in terms of how it would be different?

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20Growth: Uber's Expansion Playbook for Scaling from 10 Cities to $10BN in Revenue | How Uber Acquired 1M Drivers | How Uber Solved the Chicken and The Egg Problem in New Markets and What Uber Would Be Like with Travis Still There with Scott Gorlick

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That's why 90% of the Fortune 500 use Canva. Start designing today at canva.com. Designed for work. You have now arrived at your destination. Scott, man, I am so excited for this. I said to you before, I'm a fanboy of your Twitter threads. I think they are fantastic. So first, thank you so much for joining me today, man.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20Growth: Uber's Expansion Playbook for Scaling from 10 Cities to $10BN in Revenue | How Uber Acquired 1M Drivers | How Uber Solved the Chicken and The Egg Problem in New Markets and What Uber Would Be Like with Travis Still There with Scott Gorlick

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Can I just ask one final one on Travis? And then I do want to move to a more broad startup advice where we do a quick fire. He inspired this like followership. I think the best founders inspire followership. You see it with the Collisons, Toby Lutker at Shopify, Travis, where I know many early Uber employees and they just fucking love him and they love each other.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20Growth: Uber's Expansion Playbook for Scaling from 10 Cities to $10BN in Revenue | How Uber Acquired 1M Drivers | How Uber Solved the Chicken and The Egg Problem in New Markets and What Uber Would Be Like with Travis Still There with Scott Gorlick

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And it's like this intense familial sentiment, which is really special. What did Travis do to generate this followership?

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20Growth: Uber's Expansion Playbook for Scaling from 10 Cities to $10BN in Revenue | How Uber Acquired 1M Drivers | How Uber Solved the Chicken and The Egg Problem in New Markets and What Uber Would Be Like with Travis Still There with Scott Gorlick

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Dude, I would love to do a quick fire with you. So I say a short statement. You give me your immediate thoughts. Does that sound okay?

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20Growth: Uber's Expansion Playbook for Scaling from 10 Cities to $10BN in Revenue | How Uber Acquired 1M Drivers | How Uber Solved the Chicken and The Egg Problem in New Markets and What Uber Would Be Like with Travis Still There with Scott Gorlick

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Now, I would love to start just with a little bit of context before we dive into the incredible stories that are coming. Tell me, how did you make your way into the world of growth, join Uber, I believe as employee number 99?

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20Growth: Uber's Expansion Playbook for Scaling from 10 Cities to $10BN in Revenue | How Uber Acquired 1M Drivers | How Uber Solved the Chicken and The Egg Problem in New Markets and What Uber Would Be Like with Travis Still There with Scott Gorlick

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For me, it's like input and output metrics. The amount of times it's like, hey, revenues are metric. And I'm like, no, number of rides per week is our metric. I don't care about the revenue. That is the output metric. Final one. What's the best growth strategy that you've seen in the last 12 months? And why have you been so impressed by that one?

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20Growth: Uber's Expansion Playbook for Scaling from 10 Cities to $10BN in Revenue | How Uber Acquired 1M Drivers | How Uber Solved the Chicken and The Egg Problem in New Markets and What Uber Would Be Like with Travis Still There with Scott Gorlick

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I love that. I totally agree. I saw that partnership and I was like, I haven't smart my man. So yes, I agree with that. This has been so much fun. As I said at the beginning, for me, the best is when you have stories that then are very tied to lessons. I mean, the stories are incredible. I still can't get over the first email to Travis at, but thank you so much for joining me.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20Growth: Uber's Expansion Playbook for Scaling from 10 Cities to $10BN in Revenue | How Uber Acquired 1M Drivers | How Uber Solved the Chicken and The Egg Problem in New Markets and What Uber Would Be Like with Travis Still There with Scott Gorlick

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I mean, some of those stories are just fantastic. That South by Southwest one is just awesome to hear and incredible to hear the hustle of the early team in those early Uber days. If you want to watch the full interview, you can find it on YouTube by searching for 20VC. That's 2-0 VC. But before we leave you today, let me tell you about Outgrow. Let's get real for a second.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20Growth: Uber's Expansion Playbook for Scaling from 10 Cities to $10BN in Revenue | How Uber Acquired 1M Drivers | How Uber Solved the Chicken and The Egg Problem in New Markets and What Uber Would Be Like with Travis Still There with Scott Gorlick

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If you're in SaaS, you know the struggle of cutting through the noise to actually connect with potential customers. How do you make your product stand out without shouting into the void? Here's a practical solution. Build an interactive maturity assessment with Outgrow. Imagine you're running a project management software company.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20Growth: Uber's Expansion Playbook for Scaling from 10 Cities to $10BN in Revenue | How Uber Acquired 1M Drivers | How Uber Solved the Chicken and The Egg Problem in New Markets and What Uber Would Be Like with Travis Still There with Scott Gorlick

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You could create a team efficiency grader that helps teams see where they're killing it and where they might need a little help. Maybe their collaboration is stellar, but time management needs some work. Your tool can guide them on how to improve. Or say you've got a cybersecurity platform. Create a security preparedness test that lets companies see how they stack up against industry standards.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20Growth: Uber's Expansion Playbook for Scaling from 10 Cities to $10BN in Revenue | How Uber Acquired 1M Drivers | How Uber Solved the Chicken and The Egg Problem in New Markets and What Uber Would Be Like with Travis Still There with Scott Gorlick

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You're not just pitching your software, you're providing valuable insights that lead directly to your solution. Outgrow's no-code builder makes it easy to whip up these assessments without any technical hassle. This means you can focus on what matters, engaging your audience with real-world solutions. These assessments aren't just lead magnets, they're conversation starters.

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20Growth: Uber's Expansion Playbook for Scaling from 10 Cities to $10BN in Revenue | How Uber Acquired 1M Drivers | How Uber Solved the Chicken and The Egg Problem in New Markets and What Uber Would Be Like with Travis Still There with Scott Gorlick

2420.315

They help you show potential customers exactly how your product can fit into their world and make a difference. So if you're ready to try a more interactive approach to demand generation, check out outgrow.co slash 20growth. That's O-U-T-G-R-O-W dot co slash 20growth to get 20% off annual plans and a free trial. Let's get your team in sync with Canva.

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20Growth: Uber's Expansion Playbook for Scaling from 10 Cities to $10BN in Revenue | How Uber Acquired 1M Drivers | How Uber Solved the Chicken and The Egg Problem in New Markets and What Uber Would Be Like with Travis Still There with Scott Gorlick

2443.927

Many founders I've talked to touch on this idea of, if you want to go fast, go alone. Want to go far? Then go together. Canva helps your team go far together with their collaboration tools. Your team can work together in real time on the same presentation, dock, whiteboard, and more.

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20Growth: Uber's Expansion Playbook for Scaling from 10 Cities to $10BN in Revenue | How Uber Acquired 1M Drivers | How Uber Solved the Chicken and The Egg Problem in New Markets and What Uber Would Be Like with Travis Still There with Scott Gorlick

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With name-labeled cursors, tag teammates in comments, and assigned tasks, Canva supercharges teamwork and simplifies workflows. With Canva, you can go far together and fast thanks to Canva's AI tools. Generate text and slides in seconds. It's a serious time saver. And because AI is built right into Canva, your team can stay on task with no app switching.

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20Growth: Uber's Expansion Playbook for Scaling from 10 Cities to $10BN in Revenue | How Uber Acquired 1M Drivers | How Uber Solved the Chicken and The Egg Problem in New Markets and What Uber Would Be Like with Travis Still There with Scott Gorlick

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You can also save costs by aggregating your visual communication tools with Canva. Save costs, save time, make workflow. Start designing today at canva.com. Designed for work. Now with Labor Day weekend, we will be taking Monday off, but we will be back on Wednesday with one of OpenAI's newest board members for an incredible deep dive on the state of foundation models.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20Growth: Uber's Expansion Playbook for Scaling from 10 Cities to $10BN in Revenue | How Uber Acquired 1M Drivers | How Uber Solved the Chicken and The Egg Problem in New Markets and What Uber Would Be Like with Travis Still There with Scott Gorlick

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So I didn't know the context there when I asked that question. I did not know that it was like a direct cold email to Travis. That is awesome. And that's also a lot of responsibility on the shoulders of a 23-year-old to open a city. How did you build in Atlanta then? You go back, take me to that. Yeah.

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20Growth: Uber's Expansion Playbook for Scaling from 10 Cities to $10BN in Revenue | How Uber Acquired 1M Drivers | How Uber Solved the Chicken and The Egg Problem in New Markets and What Uber Would Be Like with Travis Still There with Scott Gorlick

35.763

This is 20 Growth with me, Harry Stebbings. Now, on 20 Growth, we sit down with the best growth leaders in the world to unpack their playbooks for scaling incredible products and communities. Today, we're joined by Scott Gawlik, employee number 99 at Uber. And today, he unpacks two incredible playbooks that Uber had.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20Growth: Uber's Expansion Playbook for Scaling from 10 Cities to $10BN in Revenue | How Uber Acquired 1M Drivers | How Uber Solved the Chicken and The Egg Problem in New Markets and What Uber Would Be Like with Travis Still There with Scott Gorlick

395.988

What did you say to them when you called them up? What did they say? What percent said yes? Just take me to that.

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20Growth: Uber's Expansion Playbook for Scaling from 10 Cities to $10BN in Revenue | How Uber Acquired 1M Drivers | How Uber Solved the Chicken and The Egg Problem in New Markets and What Uber Would Be Like with Travis Still There with Scott Gorlick

442.215

Okay, so we're onboarding our first 10, 20. Take me to the onboarding of the drivers. You fix supply and then demand just floods in the door? Just take me to that.

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20Growth: Uber's Expansion Playbook for Scaling from 10 Cities to $10BN in Revenue | How Uber Acquired 1M Drivers | How Uber Solved the Chicken and The Egg Problem in New Markets and What Uber Would Be Like with Travis Still There with Scott Gorlick

502.876

How did you retain the drivers when it was one out of 10, two out of 10? Because the whole thing is like the symmetry of timing, making sure it's aligned. How did you keep them when there was nothing coming?

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20Growth: Uber's Expansion Playbook for Scaling from 10 Cities to $10BN in Revenue | How Uber Acquired 1M Drivers | How Uber Solved the Chicken and The Egg Problem in New Markets and What Uber Would Be Like with Travis Still There with Scott Gorlick

53.849

He unpacks their driver acquisition playbook that allowed them to scale to a million drivers. And then he unpacks their city expansion playbook that allowed them to scale from 10 cities to $10 billion in revenue. Scott's also a prolific angel investor, having written early checks into Lime and Standard Cognition, to name a few. And this episode is incredibly granular.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20Growth: Uber's Expansion Playbook for Scaling from 10 Cities to $10BN in Revenue | How Uber Acquired 1M Drivers | How Uber Solved the Chicken and The Egg Problem in New Markets and What Uber Would Be Like with Travis Still There with Scott Gorlick

562.119

You have this moment where you're like, holy shit, we have 100 people on the app. We're fully utilized. How do you ramp supply at scale then? And are you doing paid marketing at this point?

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20Growth: Uber's Expansion Playbook for Scaling from 10 Cities to $10BN in Revenue | How Uber Acquired 1M Drivers | How Uber Solved the Chicken and The Egg Problem in New Markets and What Uber Would Be Like with Travis Still There with Scott Gorlick

644.298

What were the biggest things that worked in cities that you brought everywhere? So renting a hotel room, giving it to them for downtime and then pitching. What else?

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20Growth: Uber's Expansion Playbook for Scaling from 10 Cities to $10BN in Revenue | How Uber Acquired 1M Drivers | How Uber Solved the Chicken and The Egg Problem in New Markets and What Uber Would Be Like with Travis Still There with Scott Gorlick

693.704

Can I ask, what didn't work? What were some early mistakes in driver acquisition, specifically actually, that were like, oh, that was a bad one?

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20Growth: Uber's Expansion Playbook for Scaling from 10 Cities to $10BN in Revenue | How Uber Acquired 1M Drivers | How Uber Solved the Chicken and The Egg Problem in New Markets and What Uber Would Be Like with Travis Still There with Scott Gorlick

74.679

We really do go quite deep in terms of different growth playbooks. So it's time to get out the notebooks, and this is a special one. But before we dive into the show today, today I want to share a tool for all you SaaS innovators out there looking to spice up your demand generation strategy.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20Growth: Uber's Expansion Playbook for Scaling from 10 Cities to $10BN in Revenue | How Uber Acquired 1M Drivers | How Uber Solved the Chicken and The Egg Problem in New Markets and What Uber Would Be Like with Travis Still There with Scott Gorlick

773.266

Were you concerned at the time that the economics were upside down? Obviously, when you start a city, the economics are always going to be pretty ugly in the early days. It takes a while for these new cities to mature. Were you concerned in the day to day that the economics did not look good?

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20Growth: Uber's Expansion Playbook for Scaling from 10 Cities to $10BN in Revenue | How Uber Acquired 1M Drivers | How Uber Solved the Chicken and The Egg Problem in New Markets and What Uber Would Be Like with Travis Still There with Scott Gorlick

798.339

Can I ask you in terms of those kind of margin improvements, how did you see margins and economics change as the company progressed in new cities? Like did the maturation rate become much quicker? What were some lessons from that? I'm just intrigued.

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20Growth: Uber's Expansion Playbook for Scaling from 10 Cities to $10BN in Revenue | How Uber Acquired 1M Drivers | How Uber Solved the Chicken and The Egg Problem in New Markets and What Uber Would Be Like with Travis Still There with Scott Gorlick

860.094

With the increase in competition and increasing cash to competition, did you actively see it become harder to acquire drivers?

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20Growth: Uber's Expansion Playbook for Scaling from 10 Cities to $10BN in Revenue | How Uber Acquired 1M Drivers | How Uber Solved the Chicken and The Egg Problem in New Markets and What Uber Would Be Like with Travis Still There with Scott Gorlick

89.529

It's time to ditch the sales jargon and start engaging your audience with something they'll actually want to use. Picture this. You're a trusted guide helping your audience assess their strengths and weaknesses with a fun and interactive maturity assessment. Maybe it's a sales efficiency assessment or a growth readiness grader. These tools don't just draw people in.

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20Growth: Uber's Expansion Playbook for Scaling from 10 Cities to $10BN in Revenue | How Uber Acquired 1M Drivers | How Uber Solved the Chicken and The Egg Problem in New Markets and What Uber Would Be Like with Travis Still There with Scott Gorlick

909.861

How did you define a retained user? You know, with Facebook, they always said it's like after five friends, then you're a retained user. What was the metric to understand user satisfaction retention as a core North Star?

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20Growth: Uber's Expansion Playbook for Scaling from 10 Cities to $10BN in Revenue | How Uber Acquired 1M Drivers | How Uber Solved the Chicken and The Egg Problem in New Markets and What Uber Would Be Like with Travis Still There with Scott Gorlick

938.82

I would argue that rider spend is not a true reflection. I could take one long trip and it doesn't mean that I really love Uber, but if I do velocity of trips, 10 trips, it means that I do. Which one did you really focus on?

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20Sales: Scaling Hubspot from $3M to $1BN in ARR | How to Hire and Ramp Sales Teams | How to Scale Customer Success Successfully | How and When to Go International and Crush It with Jeetu Mahtani

0.069

This is 20 Sales with me, Harry Stebbings. Now, 20 Sales is the monthly show that dives into the world of sales, revealing the tips, tactics, and strategies of the best heads of sales. Today, we're joined by G2 Martani. Under his leadership, G2 grew the non-US HubSpot business from, check this out, $3 million in ARR to close to a billion in ARR.

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20Sales: Scaling Hubspot from $3M to $1BN in ARR | How to Hire and Ramp Sales Teams | How to Scale Customer Success Successfully | How and When to Go International and Crush It with Jeetu Mahtani

105.161

With over $4 trillion in revenue under management, Clary's customers have a material advantage to optimize their enterprise revenue process across all teams, from rep to the boardroom, by leveraging the world's largest and fastest-growing AI reservoir of enterprise revenue expertise.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20Sales: Scaling Hubspot from $3M to $1BN in ARR | How to Hire and Ramp Sales Teams | How to Scale Customer Success Successfully | How and When to Go International and Crush It with Jeetu Mahtani

1090.194

You mentioned there the CS element. I do want to dive into that later, but I do want to cover sales first, because you played such an important role in scaling from 3 million, where you mentioned that with the Dublin office, to either 600 million or a billion, one of the numbers.

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20Sales: Scaling Hubspot from $3M to $1BN in ARR | How to Hire and Ramp Sales Teams | How to Scale Customer Success Successfully | How and When to Go International and Crush It with Jeetu Mahtani

1105.439

So my question to you is, it looks like completely up and to the right when you look at HubSpot scaling of their sales revenues. What allowed HubSpot to scale sales so efficiently when you review what you did in the early days in probably that $3 to $30 million range?

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20Sales: Scaling Hubspot from $3M to $1BN in ARR | How to Hire and Ramp Sales Teams | How to Scale Customer Success Successfully | How and When to Go International and Crush It with Jeetu Mahtani

121.152

More than 1,500 organizations, including Okta, Adobe, Workday, Zoom, and Finastra, run revenue on Clary to improve win rates, prevent slip deals, forecast with accuracy, and boost the productivity of all revenue-critical employees. To learn more about how you can create, convert, and close revenue with Clary, visit clary.com. You have now arrived at your destination. G2, I am so excited for this.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20Sales: Scaling Hubspot from $3M to $1BN in ARR | How to Hire and Ramp Sales Teams | How to Scale Customer Success Successfully | How and When to Go International and Crush It with Jeetu Mahtani

1217.165

Okay, so I have to dig in on some elements there. One on the SEO side, that's insane, 10 million of 30 million going to the blog itself. Question for you, for founders listening today, is that SEO heavy approach still applicable today in a much more challenging SEO environment?

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20Sales: Scaling Hubspot from $3M to $1BN in ARR | How to Hire and Ramp Sales Teams | How to Scale Customer Success Successfully | How and When to Go International and Crush It with Jeetu Mahtani

1278.47

I would say it's actually the same. It's just the format with which you can create it has exploded. And so it's like, and the biggest challenge I find with startup founders is actually they do 10 different types of channels. And it's like, no, if you build the most effective SMB sales channel on TikTok, you will have millions of fans and you can redirect that back to your landing page.

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20Sales: Scaling Hubspot from $3M to $1BN in ARR | How to Hire and Ramp Sales Teams | How to Scale Customer Success Successfully | How and When to Go International and Crush It with Jeetu Mahtani

1299.837

That's just the same as having a great HubSpot blog in the early days. It's a different format, but it still redirects the same way. And I think that's just the thing that's changed, which is there's just a lot more options in terms of format. On the partner program, I hear you, but I worry that a lot of founders will go, partner programs, that's our holy grail.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20Sales: Scaling Hubspot from $3M to $1BN in ARR | How to Hire and Ramp Sales Teams | How to Scale Customer Success Successfully | How and When to Go International and Crush It with Jeetu Mahtani

1319.83

And they're often a lot harder than people think. They require a lot more investment. What stage should one think about partner programs? And what is required to do partner programs well?

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20Sales: Scaling Hubspot from $3M to $1BN in ARR | How to Hire and Ramp Sales Teams | How to Scale Customer Success Successfully | How and When to Go International and Crush It with Jeetu Mahtani

1384.847

What level of investment is required for a partner program to be successful?

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20Sales: Scaling Hubspot from $3M to $1BN in ARR | How to Hire and Ramp Sales Teams | How to Scale Customer Success Successfully | How and When to Go International and Crush It with Jeetu Mahtani

1449.858

Does every company not want someone to help their customers extra leverage? I like statements where you can prove or disprove them. When you have like...

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20Sales: Scaling Hubspot from $3M to $1BN in ARR | How to Hire and Ramp Sales Teams | How to Scale Customer Success Successfully | How and When to Go International and Crush It with Jeetu Mahtani

146.33

Listen, I just chatted to Brian at HubSpot, obviously before this. He said so many wonderful things. So thank you so much for joining me today.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20Sales: Scaling Hubspot from $3M to $1BN in ARR | How to Hire and Ramp Sales Teams | How to Scale Customer Success Successfully | How and When to Go International and Crush It with Jeetu Mahtani

1461.165

sure you want to help my customers yeah great thanks g2 everyone would want that but it requires an insane investment up front to get it over the line it requires incredible education on partner integrations that onboarding how they talk about your product how they educate customers to your product and then the life cycle management of that i think it's so much more complex than just like hey when you need more help do you know what i mean but

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20Sales: Scaling Hubspot from $3M to $1BN in ARR | How to Hire and Ramp Sales Teams | How to Scale Customer Success Successfully | How and When to Go International and Crush It with Jeetu Mahtani

158.915

Brian told me that I had to start with some context, which was you first wanted to be in product and he said that you didn't get the job. So talk to me about that moment and how you came to HubSpot then as one of the very, very first. Oh, wow.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20Sales: Scaling Hubspot from $3M to $1BN in ARR | How to Hire and Ramp Sales Teams | How to Scale Customer Success Successfully | How and When to Go International and Crush It with Jeetu Mahtani

1617.367

Were you tempted to pull Japan? The team wasn't working there. The content wasn't working there. If I was in leadership, I'd be saying, let's get the fuck out of here.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20Sales: Scaling Hubspot from $3M to $1BN in ARR | How to Hire and Ramp Sales Teams | How to Scale Customer Success Successfully | How and When to Go International and Crush It with Jeetu Mahtani

1632.999

You did Japan when it was hard. When you look back, what did you not do? It could be in sales, could be just generally that you wish you had done.

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20Sales: Scaling Hubspot from $3M to $1BN in ARR | How to Hire and Ramp Sales Teams | How to Scale Customer Success Successfully | How and When to Go International and Crush It with Jeetu Mahtani

1741.969

So that happened over time. Which country did you think you'd be a success in? And it was way harder than you thought. And which were you like, that's going to be shit. And it was way better than you thought. Japan, it was really hard.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20Sales: Scaling Hubspot from $3M to $1BN in ARR | How to Hire and Ramp Sales Teams | How to Scale Customer Success Successfully | How and When to Go International and Crush It with Jeetu Mahtani

1813.805

Everyone says BDRs and SDRs is dead now. The cold outbound, the cold email, cold LinkedIn, whatever. So 2015, do you agree or do you think that's a glib statement?

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20Sales: Scaling Hubspot from $3M to $1BN in ARR | How to Hire and Ramp Sales Teams | How to Scale Customer Success Successfully | How and When to Go International and Crush It with Jeetu Mahtani

1880.463

In the early days, the founders need to create the playbook, the sales playbook.

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20Sales: Scaling Hubspot from $3M to $1BN in ARR | How to Hire and Ramp Sales Teams | How to Scale Customer Success Successfully | How and When to Go International and Crush It with Jeetu Mahtani

1946.648

Speaking of creating feedback loops, I always think about momentum and building momentum in teams. To what extent would you advise early sales teams to focus on amazing, amazing marquee logos or just getting a load of customers in the door, high velocity, flooded with customers?

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20Sales: Scaling Hubspot from $3M to $1BN in ARR | How to Hire and Ramp Sales Teams | How to Scale Customer Success Successfully | How and When to Go International and Crush It with Jeetu Mahtani

2020.521

I also find that actually people do it because they think it will lead to subsequent immense customer acquisition. And actually it has a much smaller impact than you think working with a large name company. People are generally like, well, it's only one or two of their divisions. Well, they've just got a new CEO who doesn't know what they're doing. Well, they just raised a big round of funding.

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20Sales: Scaling Hubspot from $3M to $1BN in ARR | How to Hire and Ramp Sales Teams | How to Scale Customer Success Successfully | How and When to Go International and Crush It with Jeetu Mahtani

2039.787

And so they're spending a load on tools. And so often people always reduce the importance of it anyway.

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20Sales: Scaling Hubspot from $3M to $1BN in ARR | How to Hire and Ramp Sales Teams | How to Scale Customer Success Successfully | How and When to Go International and Crush It with Jeetu Mahtani

2082.66

Salesman. Speaking of coin operated and those coins keep coming, any big lessons on sales comp plans for sales teams?

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20Sales: Scaling Hubspot from $3M to $1BN in ARR | How to Hire and Ramp Sales Teams | How to Scale Customer Success Successfully | How and When to Go International and Crush It with Jeetu Mahtani

21.362

He then moved to lead the customer success org at HubSpot, which expanded to managing 1,500 people in CS. An incredible journey and one we deep dive on in very, very granular elements unpacking the core learnings today. But before we dive in, my sales enablement platform is a waste of money. Ever thought that? you're not alone.

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20Sales: Scaling Hubspot from $3M to $1BN in ARR | How to Hire and Ramp Sales Teams | How to Scale Customer Success Successfully | How and When to Go International and Crush It with Jeetu Mahtani

2136.784

Should customer success not also share in the financial incentive structure? of an upsell or a retention?

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20Sales: Scaling Hubspot from $3M to $1BN in ARR | How to Hire and Ramp Sales Teams | How to Scale Customer Success Successfully | How and When to Go International and Crush It with Jeetu Mahtani

2197.139

When you say a revenue-producing team, you mean they are responsible for the upsell and the retention, correct?

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20Sales: Scaling Hubspot from $3M to $1BN in ARR | How to Hire and Ramp Sales Teams | How to Scale Customer Success Successfully | How and When to Go International and Crush It with Jeetu Mahtani

2210.409

If incentives drive behaviors, which I think we both agree they do, and you incentivize me, a CS rep, with economics on upsell, G2, my dear customer, my dear customer, I think you could do with RCRM. I know you've got another CRM, but you could do with ours. It's much better for your needs, I promise you.

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20Sales: Scaling Hubspot from $3M to $1BN in ARR | How to Hire and Ramp Sales Teams | How to Scale Customer Success Successfully | How and When to Go International and Crush It with Jeetu Mahtani

2230.583

It may not be better for their needs, but the economic incentive alignment is to me, not to the benefit of the customer. In all cases, there will sometimes be misalignments. How do you prevent misalignments between provider and customer when the economic alignment is between the CS and the upsell?

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20Sales: Scaling Hubspot from $3M to $1BN in ARR | How to Hire and Ramp Sales Teams | How to Scale Customer Success Successfully | How and When to Go International and Crush It with Jeetu Mahtani

2266.428

Do you see now CFOs' bundling spend increasing? moving towards much fewer providers than we used to.

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20Sales: Scaling Hubspot from $3M to $1BN in ARR | How to Hire and Ramp Sales Teams | How to Scale Customer Success Successfully | How and When to Go International and Crush It with Jeetu Mahtani

2336.008

I think brand marketing is largely BS. I know that's unfair of me. So I'm probably going to get pushed back on that. How would you push back on that? Because I just see it and I'm like, turn it off for a month and see how revenue goes. And everyone does that. And then the revenue was not impacted. And they're like, but it could be in years time. Am I wrong to be rude about brand marketing?

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20Sales: Scaling Hubspot from $3M to $1BN in ARR | How to Hire and Ramp Sales Teams | How to Scale Customer Success Successfully | How and When to Go International and Crush It with Jeetu Mahtani

2359.488

Very charming, GT. You can tell me I'm wrong. I sometimes provoke for a reaction.

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20Sales: Scaling Hubspot from $3M to $1BN in ARR | How to Hire and Ramp Sales Teams | How to Scale Customer Success Successfully | How and When to Go International and Crush It with Jeetu Mahtani

2441.505

And you could still get there, but it will take you so much more effort. So it's so funny. When I said that, I was thinking the one example that I disagree with, actually, is I don't know if you've seen, but Expensify sponsor some form of race car. I don't know if it's F1 or whatever race car it is. And basically, for two hours, you see the driver and then Expensify on their helmet.

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20Sales: Scaling Hubspot from $3M to $1BN in ARR | How to Hire and Ramp Sales Teams | How to Scale Customer Success Successfully | How and When to Go International and Crush It with Jeetu Mahtani

2465.018

And I'm like, that is great brand marketing. two hours flat of just in your face, Expensify, or same with HubSpot in this respect with the tennis player who's got it on their arm. What are the biggest ways that startups mess up CS?

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20Sales: Scaling Hubspot from $3M to $1BN in ARR | How to Hire and Ramp Sales Teams | How to Scale Customer Success Successfully | How and When to Go International and Crush It with Jeetu Mahtani

2569.855

Two elements I have to discuss before we do a quick fire. Number one is I often sit on boards and teams say to me, you know what, that big customer, they slipped to next quarter and that's why we missed our quarterly goal. And I'm always like, what's the right way to respond to that, G2? Why don't we role play, Harry? Okay. Sales rep and I'm your manager or the other way around? Sure. Sure.

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20Sales: Scaling Hubspot from $3M to $1BN in ARR | How to Hire and Ramp Sales Teams | How to Scale Customer Success Successfully | How and When to Go International and Crush It with Jeetu Mahtani

2595.011

So like G2, I'm sorry. Like, honestly, I thought they were going to land and they just, they didn't. And so they moved into next quarter. Really sorry.

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20Sales: Scaling Hubspot from $3M to $1BN in ARR | How to Hire and Ramp Sales Teams | How to Scale Customer Success Successfully | How and When to Go International and Crush It with Jeetu Mahtani

2621.221

Honestly, I was actually just waiting for their approvals. They took it back to the group, the founding team, and I was waiting for them to confirm it.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20Sales: Scaling Hubspot from $3M to $1BN in ARR | How to Hire and Ramp Sales Teams | How to Scale Customer Success Successfully | How and When to Go International and Crush It with Jeetu Mahtani

2640.874

Yeah, I met them and they said that they were enough of a champion to get it done on their own. And they said that they had budget. We went through the use cases. It all seemed pretty good. And honestly, it was a really good fit with our core market. And then suddenly they just went a little bit more quiet and a little bit more quiet.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20Sales: Scaling Hubspot from $3M to $1BN in ARR | How to Hire and Ramp Sales Teams | How to Scale Customer Success Successfully | How and When to Go International and Crush It with Jeetu Mahtani

2659.023

And then he said, listen, I need to speak to the team and see where we're at. And it's really stalled from that.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20Sales: Scaling Hubspot from $3M to $1BN in ARR | How to Hire and Ramp Sales Teams | How to Scale Customer Success Successfully | How and When to Go International and Crush It with Jeetu Mahtani

2676.234

That's a hard one. I think that's the thing that's missing from so many sales processes. And that's the art of the great salesperson, which is how do you create synthetic urgency? Because if we're honest, very few people need HubSpot this month or they're going to die. They can have it next month. I love HubSpot, but it's not like, oh my God, the world will end.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20Sales: Scaling Hubspot from $3M to $1BN in ARR | How to Hire and Ramp Sales Teams | How to Scale Customer Success Successfully | How and When to Go International and Crush It with Jeetu Mahtani

2704.891

Crowd strike could happen to maybe too soon. But you know, there's no catastrophe.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20Sales: Scaling Hubspot from $3M to $1BN in ARR | How to Hire and Ramp Sales Teams | How to Scale Customer Success Successfully | How and When to Go International and Crush It with Jeetu Mahtani

2815.595

Do you ever do discounting? One way to get people to move faster is say, hey, you know what, G2? And you can be honest. G2, I need to hit my plan. You know what it's like. Let's not give you 25% off if you sign in the next week.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20Sales: Scaling Hubspot from $3M to $1BN in ARR | How to Hire and Ramp Sales Teams | How to Scale Customer Success Successfully | How and When to Go International and Crush It with Jeetu Mahtani

2869.093

Great. I like opinions. Fantastic. Good. Customer testimonials. G2, really help me if you could do a customer testimonial for us. You're at HubSpot, G2. Getting on our website would mean a lot. Is it okay to ask them what are the biggest lessons for startups and how to get customer testimonials and do them right?

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20Sales: Scaling Hubspot from $3M to $1BN in ARR | How to Hire and Ramp Sales Teams | How to Scale Customer Success Successfully | How and When to Go International and Crush It with Jeetu Mahtani

287.29

So clearly they liked you so much post hiring you that they decided to send you far away as soon as possible because they put you in charge of international G2. And you did such an amazing job. Brian was telling me all about what a killer you were for them, opening up eight offices around the world. First office in Dublin. Can you talk to me?

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20Sales: Scaling Hubspot from $3M to $1BN in ARR | How to Hire and Ramp Sales Teams | How to Scale Customer Success Successfully | How and When to Go International and Crush It with Jeetu Mahtani

2933.419

As I said, strong opinions are great. So always love that. Listen, GT, I could talk to you all day. So I do want to move into a quickfire round. So I say a short statement. You give me your immediate thoughts. Does that sound okay? What do you believe that most around you disbelieve?

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20Sales: Scaling Hubspot from $3M to $1BN in ARR | How to Hire and Ramp Sales Teams | How to Scale Customer Success Successfully | How and When to Go International and Crush It with Jeetu Mahtani

2964.195

I totally agree. I also always think of actually Jason Lampkin, who's like, you'll never get a truly great second sales leader, like second time sales leader to do it again. They know how freaking hard it is. G2 is not going to be like, yeah. Going to go and do another one million ARR company and go through that shit again. So I totally agree with you.

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20Sales: Scaling Hubspot from $3M to $1BN in ARR | How to Hire and Ramp Sales Teams | How to Scale Customer Success Successfully | How and When to Go International and Crush It with Jeetu Mahtani

3023.16

Tell me, what's the most contrarian or unorthodox advice for founders listening?

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20Sales: Scaling Hubspot from $3M to $1BN in ARR | How to Hire and Ramp Sales Teams | How to Scale Customer Success Successfully | How and When to Go International and Crush It with Jeetu Mahtani

3088.434

Which duties or responsibilities will get automated first do you think?

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20Sales: Scaling Hubspot from $3M to $1BN in ARR | How to Hire and Ramp Sales Teams | How to Scale Customer Success Successfully | How and When to Go International and Crush It with Jeetu Mahtani

309.084

What are your single biggest piece of advice when it comes to going international? I know it's broad, but I didn't want to corner you. Yeah.

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20Sales: Scaling Hubspot from $3M to $1BN in ARR | How to Hire and Ramp Sales Teams | How to Scale Customer Success Successfully | How and When to Go International and Crush It with Jeetu Mahtani

3154.323

Is that the fault of founders for not teaching them a more efficient sales playbook of customer discovery and qualification?

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20Sales: Scaling Hubspot from $3M to $1BN in ARR | How to Hire and Ramp Sales Teams | How to Scale Customer Success Successfully | How and When to Go International and Crush It with Jeetu Mahtani

3209.945

Final one for you, because I could talk all day, is what one company sales strategy have you been most impressed by recently?

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20Sales: Scaling Hubspot from $3M to $1BN in ARR | How to Hire and Ramp Sales Teams | How to Scale Customer Success Successfully | How and When to Go International and Crush It with Jeetu Mahtani

3269.531

G2, listen, I've loved doing this. It was very off script as you saw, but you've been fantastic. So thank you so much for being such a great guest. My pleasure, Harry.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20Sales: Scaling Hubspot from $3M to $1BN in ARR | How to Hire and Ramp Sales Teams | How to Scale Customer Success Successfully | How and When to Go International and Crush It with Jeetu Mahtani

3285.942

I so love doing these vertical shows. So many incredible lessons to unpack there. If you want to watch the full episode, you can find it on YouTube by searching for 20VC. That's 20VC. But before we leave you today, my sales enablement platform is a waste of money. Ever thought that? You're not alone.

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20Sales: Scaling Hubspot from $3M to $1BN in ARR | How to Hire and Ramp Sales Teams | How to Scale Customer Success Successfully | How and When to Go International and Crush It with Jeetu Mahtani

3301.209

Most revenue leaders feel this way watching their sales team struggle to keep up with market, product, and competitive changes. Reps burn hours each day searching, digging, slacking, desperately trying to get the answers they need out of their clunky tech stack. That's why Spekits AI-powered enablement platform was purpose-built to cut through the noise and meet reps in their moment of need.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20Sales: Scaling Hubspot from $3M to $1BN in ARR | How to Hire and Ramp Sales Teams | How to Scale Customer Success Successfully | How and When to Go International and Crush It with Jeetu Mahtani

3324.685

Spekits uses AI to recommend the exact content your reps need to close deals in any tool like Gong, Salesforce, or Outlook. It's that easy. If you're ready to give your reps a personalized enablement assistant at their fingertips, take five minutes

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20Sales: Scaling Hubspot from $3M to $1BN in ARR | How to Hire and Ramp Sales Teams | How to Scale Customer Success Successfully | How and When to Go International and Crush It with Jeetu Mahtani

3339.594

and discover why leading investors like Kraft and Felicis are backing SpecIt as the platform revolutionizing sales enablement, see for yourself at specit.com slash 20VC. Speaking of AI-powered solutions, Clary is also revolutionizing how companies optimize their revenue processes.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20Sales: Scaling Hubspot from $3M to $1BN in ARR | How to Hire and Ramp Sales Teams | How to Scale Customer Success Successfully | How and When to Go International and Crush It with Jeetu Mahtani

3358.058

Clary is an industry-leading AI-powered revenue platform that is purpose-built to help companies optimize their end-to-end revenue process. With over $4 trillion in revenue under management, Clary's customers have a material advantage to optimize their enterprise revenue process across all teams, from rep to the boardroom.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20Sales: Scaling Hubspot from $3M to $1BN in ARR | How to Hire and Ramp Sales Teams | How to Scale Customer Success Successfully | How and When to Go International and Crush It with Jeetu Mahtani

3376.385

by leveraging the world's largest and fastest growing AI reservoir of enterprise revenue expertise. More than 1,500 organizations, including Okta, Adobe, Workday, Zoom, and Finastra, run revenue on Clary to improve win rates, prevent slip deals, forecast with accuracy, and boost the productivity of all revenue-critical employees.

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20Sales: Scaling Hubspot from $3M to $1BN in ARR | How to Hire and Ramp Sales Teams | How to Scale Customer Success Successfully | How and When to Go International and Crush It with Jeetu Mahtani

3396.762

To learn more about how you can create, convert, and close revenue with Clary, visit clary.com. As always, I so appreciate all your support and stay tuned for an incredible episode coming on Monday with the executive chairman of Shein for his first ever podcast episode.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20Sales: Scaling Hubspot from $3M to $1BN in ARR | How to Hire and Ramp Sales Teams | How to Scale Customer Success Successfully | How and When to Go International and Crush It with Jeetu Mahtani

40.418

Most revenue leaders feel this way watching their sales team struggle to keep up with market, product, and competitive changes. Reps burn hours each day searching, digging, slacking, desperately trying to get the answers they need out of their clunky tech stack. That's why Spekits' AI-powered enablement platform was purpose-built to cut through the noise and meet reps in their moment of need.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20Sales: Scaling Hubspot from $3M to $1BN in ARR | How to Hire and Ramp Sales Teams | How to Scale Customer Success Successfully | How and When to Go International and Crush It with Jeetu Mahtani

418.942

G2, do CACs get worse or better over time? If you think about the CACs of enterprise in year one of doing it versus the CACs of enterprise in year four of doing it. So remaining in that segment, is it the same? Is it less? Is it more?

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20Sales: Scaling Hubspot from $3M to $1BN in ARR | How to Hire and Ramp Sales Teams | How to Scale Customer Success Successfully | How and When to Go International and Crush It with Jeetu Mahtani

450.736

And so then we have like good enough CACs to LTVs and we're like, you know what, we're ready to go international. What did HubSpot do really well to enable the international expansion to be a success?

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20Sales: Scaling Hubspot from $3M to $1BN in ARR | How to Hire and Ramp Sales Teams | How to Scale Customer Success Successfully | How and When to Go International and Crush It with Jeetu Mahtani

516.616

What ARR were we at when we made the expansion into Dublin? Oh, it was tiny. It was tiny. It was like, 3 million ARR when we opened Dublin. Would you not advise an angel investment today that that is too early? I would say you have not nearly saturated your domestic core market. Absolutely double down there until you're at 20, 25, 30.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20Sales: Scaling Hubspot from $3M to $1BN in ARR | How to Hire and Ramp Sales Teams | How to Scale Customer Success Successfully | How and When to Go International and Crush It with Jeetu Mahtani

568.138

So with the different methods that we have today, PLG, digital CS, would you still advise companies to go international as early as you did?

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20Sales: Scaling Hubspot from $3M to $1BN in ARR | How to Hire and Ramp Sales Teams | How to Scale Customer Success Successfully | How and When to Go International and Crush It with Jeetu Mahtani

63.904

Spekits uses AI to recommend the exact content your reps need to close deals in any tool like Gong, Salesforce, or Outlook. It's that easy. If you're ready to give your reps a personalized enablement assistant at their fingertips, take five minutes and discover why leading investors like Kraft and Felicis are backing SpecIt as the platform revolutionizing sales enablement.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20Sales: Scaling Hubspot from $3M to $1BN in ARR | How to Hire and Ramp Sales Teams | How to Scale Customer Success Successfully | How and When to Go International and Crush It with Jeetu Mahtani

650.945

I mean, I love that in terms of validating the demand there with the time zones. Can I ask then, is time zones the only reason you do international expansion today? Given the technologies that we have to make cross-border selling and great product experience and great touch points with customers so easy, is time zone the only reason that you do international expansion today?

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20Sales: Scaling Hubspot from $3M to $1BN in ARR | How to Hire and Ramp Sales Teams | How to Scale Customer Success Successfully | How and When to Go International and Crush It with Jeetu Mahtani

702.514

Do you always have to send talent from the core home destination to indoctrinate the new talent in the new country?

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20Sales: Scaling Hubspot from $3M to $1BN in ARR | How to Hire and Ramp Sales Teams | How to Scale Customer Success Successfully | How and When to Go International and Crush It with Jeetu Mahtani

766.667

Did you find rep ramp time? I know this is a very specific question. Did you find a rep ramp time varied by geography?

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20Sales: Scaling Hubspot from $3M to $1BN in ARR | How to Hire and Ramp Sales Teams | How to Scale Customer Success Successfully | How and When to Go International and Crush It with Jeetu Mahtani

791.937

What was that ramp time? How long was it before you expected people to start closing and start paying for themselves?

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20Sales: Scaling Hubspot from $3M to $1BN in ARR | How to Hire and Ramp Sales Teams | How to Scale Customer Success Successfully | How and When to Go International and Crush It with Jeetu Mahtani

811.669

I'm so interested. I know we had the schedule, but sod it. I'm enjoying this too much. How large an ACV, average contract value or customer value, do you have to have to justify a sales rep?

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20Sales: Scaling Hubspot from $3M to $1BN in ARR | How to Hire and Ramp Sales Teams | How to Scale Customer Success Successfully | How and When to Go International and Crush It with Jeetu Mahtani

840.319

But when you were three millionaire and in Dublin in the early days, you were only serving SMBs in those days, correct?

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20Sales: Scaling Hubspot from $3M to $1BN in ARR | How to Hire and Ramp Sales Teams | How to Scale Customer Success Successfully | How and When to Go International and Crush It with Jeetu Mahtani

86.245

See for yourself at specit.com slash 20VC. Speaking of AI-powered solutions, Clary is also revolutionizing how companies optimize their revenue processes. Clary is an industry-leading, AI-powered revenue platform that is purpose-built to help companies optimize their end-to-end revenue process.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20Sales: Scaling Hubspot from $3M to $1BN in ARR | How to Hire and Ramp Sales Teams | How to Scale Customer Success Successfully | How and When to Go International and Crush It with Jeetu Mahtani

885.58

When you look back with the benefits of hindsight, G2, what were some of the biggest mistakes that you did in the international expansion?

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: The Truth About Multi-Stage Firms; Why Portfolio Services are for VCs not Founders | Why Politics is Rife & Decision-Making is Broken in Large VCs | Why Reserves are Bad for Founders & How Boutique Firms Will Win with Mark Goldberg @ Chemistry

1018.481

I spoke to one of your LPs before and they were like, oh, well, they're not competing against their old shops because they're going a little bit before. And I was like, I compete with all of their shops and I do pre-seed. So they are competing. How do you think about that?

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: The Truth About Multi-Stage Firms; Why Portfolio Services are for VCs not Founders | Why Politics is Rife & Decision-Making is Broken in Large VCs | Why Reserves are Bad for Founders & How Boutique Firms Will Win with Mark Goldberg @ Chemistry

1049.855

Do you worry about the expanded round sizes? Something that I am genuinely just concerned about right now is like the amount of $8 million seed rounds where I'm having to stump up six. for not a huge amount of traction at a pretty high price. And that's kind of becoming the norm.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: The Truth About Multi-Stage Firms; Why Portfolio Services are for VCs not Founders | Why Politics is Rife & Decision-Making is Broken in Large VCs | Why Reserves are Bad for Founders & How Boutique Firms Will Win with Mark Goldberg @ Chemistry

1081.161

How do you determine when to pay up versus when to sit it out? Like when it's just not a chemistry deal. I look at like my biggest mistakes this year have been Suno and Eleven Labs. And both of them I didn't do because they were small checks, probably like 1% each. And that didn't fit the model. That was my lack of mental plasticity.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: The Truth About Multi-Stage Firms; Why Portfolio Services are for VCs not Founders | Why Politics is Rife & Decision-Making is Broken in Large VCs | Why Reserves are Bad for Founders & How Boutique Firms Will Win with Mark Goldberg @ Chemistry

110.302

And speaking of transforming your business with cutting-edge technology, let's dive into another game changer, Atio. Atio is the next generation of CRN. Setting up Atio takes less than a minute, and in seconds of syncing your email and calendar, you'll see all of your relationships in one place, all enriched with very valuable data.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: The Truth About Multi-Stage Firms; Why Portfolio Services are for VCs not Founders | Why Politics is Rife & Decision-Making is Broken in Large VCs | Why Reserves are Bad for Founders & How Boutique Firms Will Win with Mark Goldberg @ Chemistry

1145.42

Totally agree. Taking one by one, you said about kind of the importance of being the category winner. I so agree with you there. It's like the 95% to one and 5% to everyone else in the market. Constantly oscillating. I don't like competitive markets, but then I consistently hear people say the best markets are competitive because there is incredible value at the end of them.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: The Truth About Multi-Stage Firms; Why Portfolio Services are for VCs not Founders | Why Politics is Rife & Decision-Making is Broken in Large VCs | Why Reserves are Bad for Founders & How Boutique Firms Will Win with Mark Goldberg @ Chemistry

1165.693

How do you think about market competition? Do you like competitive markets or not competitive markets? And how do you think about my statement?

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: The Truth About Multi-Stage Firms; Why Portfolio Services are for VCs not Founders | Why Politics is Rife & Decision-Making is Broken in Large VCs | Why Reserves are Bad for Founders & How Boutique Firms Will Win with Mark Goldberg @ Chemistry

1195.353

You said about execution being everything that I so agree with you, dude. What are the reasons why from zero to one execution goes wrong? Most often you see.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: The Truth About Multi-Stage Firms; Why Portfolio Services are for VCs not Founders | Why Politics is Rife & Decision-Making is Broken in Large VCs | Why Reserves are Bad for Founders & How Boutique Firms Will Win with Mark Goldberg @ Chemistry

1235.393

Well, I mean, I had Zach from Plaid on the show and he said that OKRs at the early stage were just bullshit entirely.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: The Truth About Multi-Stage Firms; Why Portfolio Services are for VCs not Founders | Why Politics is Rife & Decision-Making is Broken in Large VCs | Why Reserves are Bad for Founders & How Boutique Firms Will Win with Mark Goldberg @ Chemistry

1248.487

What are the reasons why execution breaks most post-product market fit? You've worked with some incredible companies post.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: The Truth About Multi-Stage Firms; Why Portfolio Services are for VCs not Founders | Why Politics is Rife & Decision-Making is Broken in Large VCs | Why Reserves are Bad for Founders & How Boutique Firms Will Win with Mark Goldberg @ Chemistry

129.293

Atio also lets you build Zapier-style automations, gives you powerful reports, and works perfectly for any go-to-market motion from PLG to sales-led. And Atio is designed for the next era of companies like yours. And companies like yours shouldn't have to deal with inflexible, one-size-fits-all CRMs.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: The Truth About Multi-Stage Firms; Why Portfolio Services are for VCs not Founders | Why Politics is Rife & Decision-Making is Broken in Large VCs | Why Reserves are Bad for Founders & How Boutique Firms Will Win with Mark Goldberg @ Chemistry

1325.854

So as a pre-product market fit, also everyone forgets how long hiring takes. It takes three to six months to find the person, three to six months to ramp them, and then 50% of the time, three to six months to fire them. And you've gone 18 months and you've still got nowhere. And that's why I prefer serial founders because they have an existing network. They've worked with Mark before.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: The Truth About Multi-Stage Firms; Why Portfolio Services are for VCs not Founders | Why Politics is Rife & Decision-Making is Broken in Large VCs | Why Reserves are Bad for Founders & How Boutique Firms Will Win with Mark Goldberg @ Chemistry

1344.541

They know how Mark works. Sign Mark next week. He onboards a week later, job done, and he's fully ramped by week four. Now, I then have so many people say, but the naivety, the brilliance of first-time founders, how do you, I'm forcing you to pick one, which one and why?

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: The Truth About Multi-Stage Firms; Why Portfolio Services are for VCs not Founders | Why Politics is Rife & Decision-Making is Broken in Large VCs | Why Reserves are Bad for Founders & How Boutique Firms Will Win with Mark Goldberg @ Chemistry

1425.171

For founders listening, does the established brand, I don't think the established brand helps with hiring because I think it helps with hiring the wrong type of people. You want people who love the founder, love the team, love the mission, not love the fact that a big brand is in there. Does it help with customers?

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: The Truth About Multi-Stage Firms; Why Portfolio Services are for VCs not Founders | Why Politics is Rife & Decision-Making is Broken in Large VCs | Why Reserves are Bad for Founders & How Boutique Firms Will Win with Mark Goldberg @ Chemistry

1448.826

Tell me, when you were doing the fundraise, how did you organize it? I know that sounds strange, but did you go to friends and family style first, people you knew who were super high likelihood? Or did you go for the anchor's big names first to solidify the base? Which approach?

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: The Truth About Multi-Stage Firms; Why Portfolio Services are for VCs not Founders | Why Politics is Rife & Decision-Making is Broken in Large VCs | Why Reserves are Bad for Founders & How Boutique Firms Will Win with Mark Goldberg @ Chemistry

149.345

So join industry leaders like Eleven Labs, Replicate, Modal, and more to scale your startup beyond the next level. Head over to atio.com forward slash 20VC and you'll get 15% off. That's 15% off your first year at atio.com forward slash 20VC.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: The Truth About Multi-Stage Firms; Why Portfolio Services are for VCs not Founders | Why Politics is Rife & Decision-Making is Broken in Large VCs | Why Reserves are Bad for Founders & How Boutique Firms Will Win with Mark Goldberg @ Chemistry

1541.176

In terms of like LP construction, was there anything specifically that you wanted? I find some managers get a bit wanky about like, oh, we won't take family offices.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: The Truth About Multi-Stage Firms; Why Portfolio Services are for VCs not Founders | Why Politics is Rife & Decision-Making is Broken in Large VCs | Why Reserves are Bad for Founders & How Boutique Firms Will Win with Mark Goldberg @ Chemistry

1606.716

I have one meeting where I just couldn't stop sweating. And then it's just the most awful thing in a big meeting room with like 12 people and you're standing at the front and you're like, oh, and everyone knows you're sweating.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: The Truth About Multi-Stage Firms; Why Portfolio Services are for VCs not Founders | Why Politics is Rife & Decision-Making is Broken in Large VCs | Why Reserves are Bad for Founders & How Boutique Firms Will Win with Mark Goldberg @ Chemistry

1640.831

Did you raise money only from people you met in person? Were there any checks which were virtual checks?

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: The Truth About Multi-Stage Firms; Why Portfolio Services are for VCs not Founders | Why Politics is Rife & Decision-Making is Broken in Large VCs | Why Reserves are Bad for Founders & How Boutique Firms Will Win with Mark Goldberg @ Chemistry

168.641

And if Atio helps you stay ahead by streamlining your relationships and operations, now, if you're looking to stay ahead on the investment side too, Fundrise's Innovation Fund is taking venture capital to a whole new level. It's a public venture fund anyone can invest in, not just institutions and accredited investors.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: The Truth About Multi-Stage Firms; Why Portfolio Services are for VCs not Founders | Why Politics is Rife & Decision-Making is Broken in Large VCs | Why Reserves are Bad for Founders & How Boutique Firms Will Win with Mark Goldberg @ Chemistry

1687.207

Okay, the Tokyo test is, can you fly to Tokyo with someone and be engaged fully in conversation throughout the duration of the flight? And if you can, that is either the sign that you should marry them or start a company with them.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: The Truth About Multi-Stage Firms; Why Portfolio Services are for VCs not Founders | Why Politics is Rife & Decision-Making is Broken in Large VCs | Why Reserves are Bad for Founders & How Boutique Firms Will Win with Mark Goldberg @ Chemistry

1738.474

Okay. So you have a hundred meetings. And so you have like 20 yeses for people who don't understand fundraisers.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: The Truth About Multi-Stage Firms; Why Portfolio Services are for VCs not Founders | Why Politics is Rife & Decision-Making is Broken in Large VCs | Why Reserves are Bad for Founders & How Boutique Firms Will Win with Mark Goldberg @ Chemistry

1774.292

Okay. So you have a hundred and then say we end up with 20 there. And what was the number one reason in commonality wise why people said no?

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: The Truth About Multi-Stage Firms; Why Portfolio Services are for VCs not Founders | Why Politics is Rife & Decision-Making is Broken in Large VCs | Why Reserves are Bad for Founders & How Boutique Firms Will Win with Mark Goldberg @ Chemistry

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Did you push back when you felt like they weren't giving you the right feedback? I of course got no's and I of course got kind of bullshit ones. And I would always say like, I really appreciate your desire to protect my feelings, but I really want to get better above everything else. Please tell me the real reason why you said no.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: The Truth About Multi-Stage Firms; Why Portfolio Services are for VCs not Founders | Why Politics is Rife & Decision-Making is Broken in Large VCs | Why Reserves are Bad for Founders & How Boutique Firms Will Win with Mark Goldberg @ Chemistry

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The Fundrise Innovation Fund is democratizing venture capital, which could have big consequences for the industry. and data infrastructure companies. Companies like OpenAI, Anthropic, and Databricks. Check out the Innovation Fund's impressive list of investments for yourself by visiting fundrise.com slash 20VC.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: The Truth About Multi-Stage Firms; Why Portfolio Services are for VCs not Founders | Why Politics is Rife & Decision-Making is Broken in Large VCs | Why Reserves are Bad for Founders & How Boutique Firms Will Win with Mark Goldberg @ Chemistry

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Did you find one group more sophisticated, intelligent than others? Foundations, endowments, family offices?

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: The Truth About Multi-Stage Firms; Why Portfolio Services are for VCs not Founders | Why Politics is Rife & Decision-Making is Broken in Large VCs | Why Reserves are Bad for Founders & How Boutique Firms Will Win with Mark Goldberg @ Chemistry

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Fund investing is like a company investing in a couple of ways. One, the best fund managers are like the best founders. They make you feel a little bit uncomfortable with their intensity. And then, you know, second, there needs to be a why now. There needs to be a moment in the ecosystem that causes this company or fund to be more exciting today than it was yesterday.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: The Truth About Multi-Stage Firms; Why Portfolio Services are for VCs not Founders | Why Politics is Rife & Decision-Making is Broken in Large VCs | Why Reserves are Bad for Founders & How Boutique Firms Will Win with Mark Goldberg @ Chemistry

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Carefully consider the investment material before investing, including objectives, risks, charges, and expenses. This and other information can be found in the Innovation Fund's prospectus at fundrise.com slash innovation. This is a paid partnership. You have now arrived at your destination. Mark, dude, I am so excited for this. When we last did one, I was actually young. So this is a joy.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: The Truth About Multi-Stage Firms; Why Portfolio Services are for VCs not Founders | Why Politics is Rife & Decision-Making is Broken in Large VCs | Why Reserves are Bad for Founders & How Boutique Firms Will Win with Mark Goldberg @ Chemistry

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And I completely share the perspective there. I do worry there's just too much money in this ecosystem, though. I lost a deal this week and I lost it because the competition doubled the price and accepted common shares.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: The Truth About Multi-Stage Firms; Why Portfolio Services are for VCs not Founders | Why Politics is Rife & Decision-Making is Broken in Large VCs | Why Reserves are Bad for Founders & How Boutique Firms Will Win with Mark Goldberg @ Chemistry

2149.025

Are you worried by the extended window of privatization by great, great founders like the Collison's continuously being private for years and years and years?

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: The Truth About Multi-Stage Firms; Why Portfolio Services are for VCs not Founders | Why Politics is Rife & Decision-Making is Broken in Large VCs | Why Reserves are Bad for Founders & How Boutique Firms Will Win with Mark Goldberg @ Chemistry

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Okay. I'm going to make a statement. You can agree or not. I don't think many of the 2021 vintage funds will return 1X. Agree or disagree?

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: The Truth About Multi-Stage Firms; Why Portfolio Services are for VCs not Founders | Why Politics is Rife & Decision-Making is Broken in Large VCs | Why Reserves are Bad for Founders & How Boutique Firms Will Win with Mark Goldberg @ Chemistry

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What happens to all the companies that are marked up insanely highly with insane valuations by many of the multistage funds and are worth 2 billion, 3 billion, not 10 billion?

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: The Truth About Multi-Stage Firms; Why Portfolio Services are for VCs not Founders | Why Politics is Rife & Decision-Making is Broken in Large VCs | Why Reserves are Bad for Founders & How Boutique Firms Will Win with Mark Goldberg @ Chemistry

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I kind of have this new approach, which is I say, listen, I will let you choose the price. And they're like, what? And I'm like, there's just one clause. Whatever price you choose, you have to be 90% confident that you can 3X that by the time you're going to raise your next. And if you don't, I'm going to be pissed.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: The Truth About Multi-Stage Firms; Why Portfolio Services are for VCs not Founders | Why Politics is Rife & Decision-Making is Broken in Large VCs | Why Reserves are Bad for Founders & How Boutique Firms Will Win with Mark Goldberg @ Chemistry

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Because they're like, oh, shit, the 25. I don't know if we'll be 75 when we're 1 million in ARR. Especially at seed, I'm seeing the 25s go to 15s. Because they're like, I could do 45, but really confidently predicting 80s.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: The Truth About Multi-Stage Firms; Why Portfolio Services are for VCs not Founders | Why Politics is Rife & Decision-Making is Broken in Large VCs | Why Reserves are Bad for Founders & How Boutique Firms Will Win with Mark Goldberg @ Chemistry

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How do you think about investing in AI today, given rounds being the sizes of the AR, being the competition, being what it is? How do you think about that?

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: The Truth About Multi-Stage Firms; Why Portfolio Services are for VCs not Founders | Why Politics is Rife & Decision-Making is Broken in Large VCs | Why Reserves are Bad for Founders & How Boutique Firms Will Win with Mark Goldberg @ Chemistry

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But I think what's starting to happen is... What makes you say that we're seeing the oxygen sucked out? Because I don't see that.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: The Truth About Multi-Stage Firms; Why Portfolio Services are for VCs not Founders | Why Politics is Rife & Decision-Making is Broken in Large VCs | Why Reserves are Bad for Founders & How Boutique Firms Will Win with Mark Goldberg @ Chemistry

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This is 20VC with me, Harry Stebbings, and today we have a very special show for you. On Wednesday this week, we saw a new fund announcement in the form of Chemistry, a new $350 million seed and series A firm from Mark Goldberg, Ethan Kurzweil, and Christina Shen. Today, I sit down with Mark to unpack it all.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: The Truth About Multi-Stage Firms; Why Portfolio Services are for VCs not Founders | Why Politics is Rife & Decision-Making is Broken in Large VCs | Why Reserves are Bad for Founders & How Boutique Firms Will Win with Mark Goldberg @ Chemistry

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No, honestly, I see it being more crazy than ever. I mean, I've met three companies that raised at north of 750 pre-product. How do you structure decision making as a new firm?

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: The Truth About Multi-Stage Firms; Why Portfolio Services are for VCs not Founders | Why Politics is Rife & Decision-Making is Broken in Large VCs | Why Reserves are Bad for Founders & How Boutique Firms Will Win with Mark Goldberg @ Chemistry

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I absolutely agree that I think Revolut is that, but I would actually place a lot bigger bet on Revolut taking the US than Chime.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: The Truth About Multi-Stage Firms; Why Portfolio Services are for VCs not Founders | Why Politics is Rife & Decision-Making is Broken in Large VCs | Why Reserves are Bad for Founders & How Boutique Firms Will Win with Mark Goldberg @ Chemistry

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You know, we have Mamoun on the show. He just lost Tally. Brilliant founder, Jason, but difficult business in the lending business. And his lesson he told me was just that lending's really, really hard. Is lending just an uninvestable category?

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: The Truth About Multi-Stage Firms; Why Portfolio Services are for VCs not Founders | Why Politics is Rife & Decision-Making is Broken in Large VCs | Why Reserves are Bad for Founders & How Boutique Firms Will Win with Mark Goldberg @ Chemistry

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Dude, it is great. And there's nothing like having your own shop. I always say this to people, like having your name above the door is the most special thing and building your own is just so special. I do just want to start with that, which is like, there are so many venture firms, respectfully. Why did you feel like the world needed another one?

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: The Truth About Multi-Stage Firms; Why Portfolio Services are for VCs not Founders | Why Politics is Rife & Decision-Making is Broken in Large VCs | Why Reserves are Bad for Founders & How Boutique Firms Will Win with Mark Goldberg @ Chemistry

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What do you do when you meet an amazing founder in a shit market where you're like, oh, I hate this?

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: The Truth About Multi-Stage Firms; Why Portfolio Services are for VCs not Founders | Why Politics is Rife & Decision-Making is Broken in Large VCs | Why Reserves are Bad for Founders & How Boutique Firms Will Win with Mark Goldberg @ Chemistry

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My question to you is, what other markets are you like? Like for me, recruitment software. Oh, oh, no. I'm like, honestly, I'm pretty sorry, education. Ad tech just sucks.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: The Truth About Multi-Stage Firms; Why Portfolio Services are for VCs not Founders | Why Politics is Rife & Decision-Making is Broken in Large VCs | Why Reserves are Bad for Founders & How Boutique Firms Will Win with Mark Goldberg @ Chemistry

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I would say the smartest in FinTech are Matt Harris and Mickey Malka. Listen, though, I mean... And they've made a fuck ton of money.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: The Truth About Multi-Stage Firms; Why Portfolio Services are for VCs not Founders | Why Politics is Rife & Decision-Making is Broken in Large VCs | Why Reserves are Bad for Founders & How Boutique Firms Will Win with Mark Goldberg @ Chemistry

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How do you turn people down? Do you say the honest truth or would you rather gloss it over because there's no point being that honest and blunt?

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: The Truth About Multi-Stage Firms; Why Portfolio Services are for VCs not Founders | Why Politics is Rife & Decision-Making is Broken in Large VCs | Why Reserves are Bad for Founders & How Boutique Firms Will Win with Mark Goldberg @ Chemistry

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The other big change, though, in you is you've moved from a multistage fund where you have to preserve optionality and you have to keep them on side.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: The Truth About Multi-Stage Firms; Why Portfolio Services are for VCs not Founders | Why Politics is Rife & Decision-Making is Broken in Large VCs | Why Reserves are Bad for Founders & How Boutique Firms Will Win with Mark Goldberg @ Chemistry

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I remember Brian Singerman said to me on the show that the enemy of great venture returns is capital concentration limits on a per company basis. And he mentioned that they have 30% in some funds just for one company.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: The Truth About Multi-Stage Firms; Why Portfolio Services are for VCs not Founders | Why Politics is Rife & Decision-Making is Broken in Large VCs | Why Reserves are Bad for Founders & How Boutique Firms Will Win with Mark Goldberg @ Chemistry

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If I were to give you just one bit of advice, everyone will tell you the opposite. Don't be afraid to do brand deals where you do get into brand names with tiny ownerships. The most important thing is that you align yourself with incredible founders and incredible companies in this new era, especially in this new era of AI. Just get into some great companies and be aligned with them.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: The Truth About Multi-Stage Firms; Why Portfolio Services are for VCs not Founders | Why Politics is Rife & Decision-Making is Broken in Large VCs | Why Reserves are Bad for Founders & How Boutique Firms Will Win with Mark Goldberg @ Chemistry

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Listen, my friend, are you ready to do a quick fire? Yeah, let's do it. So who outside of chemistry do you learn most from in the venture industry?

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: The Truth About Multi-Stage Firms; Why Portfolio Services are for VCs not Founders | Why Politics is Rife & Decision-Making is Broken in Large VCs | Why Reserves are Bad for Founders & How Boutique Firms Will Win with Mark Goldberg @ Chemistry

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One thing I do say to founders is like, you are either fundraising or you're not nowadays. Sadly, what WhatsApp groups have changed is the ability for associates to communicate very, very fast with large groups that actually, oh, I met Mark. He wasn't great. And actually, they're not even at half a million in ARR. So we turned it down. It can really damage a raise when you're not even raising.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: The Truth About Multi-Stage Firms; Why Portfolio Services are for VCs not Founders | Why Politics is Rife & Decision-Making is Broken in Large VCs | Why Reserves are Bad for Founders & How Boutique Firms Will Win with Mark Goldberg @ Chemistry

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I mean it nicely, but like you get board seats, portfolios accumulate. You can't. You have team members, they have culture, morale, promotions...

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: The Truth About Multi-Stage Firms; Why Portfolio Services are for VCs not Founders | Why Politics is Rife & Decision-Making is Broken in Large VCs | Why Reserves are Bad for Founders & How Boutique Firms Will Win with Mark Goldberg @ Chemistry

3030.117

You can invest in a seed firm, a series A firm, and a growth firm. Can't be yours or mine. Which would you invest in?

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: The Truth About Multi-Stage Firms; Why Portfolio Services are for VCs not Founders | Why Politics is Rife & Decision-Making is Broken in Large VCs | Why Reserves are Bad for Founders & How Boutique Firms Will Win with Mark Goldberg @ Chemistry

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Mine would be like CyberStars at seed or Nico at adjacent. A, it would have to be benchmark. And then growth, I'd do Thrive.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: The Truth About Multi-Stage Firms; Why Portfolio Services are for VCs not Founders | Why Politics is Rife & Decision-Making is Broken in Large VCs | Why Reserves are Bad for Founders & How Boutique Firms Will Win with Mark Goldberg @ Chemistry

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Dude, listen, I'm so thrilled for you. Honestly, I'm so happy to see the news. And this is such an exciting time. So thank you for doing this with me. And it really means a lot to have the friendship.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: The Truth About Multi-Stage Firms; Why Portfolio Services are for VCs not Founders | Why Politics is Rife & Decision-Making is Broken in Large VCs | Why Reserves are Bad for Founders & How Boutique Firms Will Win with Mark Goldberg @ Chemistry

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I want to say a huge thank you to Mark for joining us today. It was the only podcast episode that Chemistry have done as part of the release. Such a joy to make that happen. And you can watch the full episode on YouTube by searching for 20VC. That's 2-0-V-C. But before we leave you today, what do Henry Ford and AI have in common? Neither could change the world without automation.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: The Truth About Multi-Stage Firms; Why Portfolio Services are for VCs not Founders | Why Politics is Rife & Decision-Making is Broken in Large VCs | Why Reserves are Bad for Founders & How Boutique Firms Will Win with Mark Goldberg @ Chemistry

3196.226

In the future, there will be two types of businesses, those that have automated and those that wish they had. UiPath, the undisputed leader in automation, is taking us into the era of agentic automation. UiPath's new AI agents don't just follow rules, they think, they make decisions, they work alongside the world's most powerful software robots, already trusted by over 10,000 businesses.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: The Truth About Multi-Stage Firms; Why Portfolio Services are for VCs not Founders | Why Politics is Rife & Decision-Making is Broken in Large VCs | Why Reserves are Bad for Founders & How Boutique Firms Will Win with Mark Goldberg @ Chemistry

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If agentic automation sounds new, just think of UiPath as more growth, not more overhead platform, or happier customers, happier employees platform. Whatever you want AI to do for your business, agentic automation with UiPath will make it happen. Try UiPath's new AI agents for free at UiPath.com. The future of automation is both agentic and robotic, so don't get left behind.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: The Truth About Multi-Stage Firms; Why Portfolio Services are for VCs not Founders | Why Politics is Rife & Decision-Making is Broken in Large VCs | Why Reserves are Bad for Founders & How Boutique Firms Will Win with Mark Goldberg @ Chemistry

3246.138

And speaking of transforming your business with cutting-edge technology, let's dive into another game changer, Atio. Atio is the next generation of CRN. Setting up Atio takes less than a minute, and in seconds of syncing your email and calendar, you'll see all of your relationships in one place, all enriched with very valuable data.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: The Truth About Multi-Stage Firms; Why Portfolio Services are for VCs not Founders | Why Politics is Rife & Decision-Making is Broken in Large VCs | Why Reserves are Bad for Founders & How Boutique Firms Will Win with Mark Goldberg @ Chemistry

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Atio also lets you build Zapier-style automations, gives you powerful reports, and works perfectly for any go-to-market motion from PLG to sales-led. And Atio is designed for the next era of companies like yours. And companies like yours shouldn't have to deal with inflexible, one-size-fits-all CRMs.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: The Truth About Multi-Stage Firms; Why Portfolio Services are for VCs not Founders | Why Politics is Rife & Decision-Making is Broken in Large VCs | Why Reserves are Bad for Founders & How Boutique Firms Will Win with Mark Goldberg @ Chemistry

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So join industry leaders like Eleven Labs, Replicate, Modal, and more to scale your startup beyond the next level. Head over to atio.com forward slash 20VC and you'll get 15% off. That's 15% off your first year at atio.com forward slash 20VC.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: The Truth About Multi-Stage Firms; Why Portfolio Services are for VCs not Founders | Why Politics is Rife & Decision-Making is Broken in Large VCs | Why Reserves are Bad for Founders & How Boutique Firms Will Win with Mark Goldberg @ Chemistry

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And if Atio helps you stay ahead by streamlining your relationships and operations, now, if you're looking to stay ahead on the investment side too, Fundrise's Innovation Fund is taking venture capital to a whole new level. It's a public venture fund anyone can invest in, not just institutions and accredited investors.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: The Truth About Multi-Stage Firms; Why Portfolio Services are for VCs not Founders | Why Politics is Rife & Decision-Making is Broken in Large VCs | Why Reserves are Bad for Founders & How Boutique Firms Will Win with Mark Goldberg @ Chemistry

3322.423

The Fundrise Innovation Fund is democratizing venture capital, which could have big consequences for the industry. and data infrastructure companies. Companies like OpenAI, Anthropic, and Databricks. Check out the Innovation Fund's impressive list of investments for yourself by visiting fundrise.com slash 20VC.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: The Truth About Multi-Stage Firms; Why Portfolio Services are for VCs not Founders | Why Politics is Rife & Decision-Making is Broken in Large VCs | Why Reserves are Bad for Founders & How Boutique Firms Will Win with Mark Goldberg @ Chemistry

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Carefully consider the investment material before investing, including objectives, risks, charges, and expenses. This and other information can be found in the Innovation Fund's prospectus at fundrise.com slash innovation. This is a paid partnership.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: The Truth About Multi-Stage Firms; Why Portfolio Services are for VCs not Founders | Why Politics is Rife & Decision-Making is Broken in Large VCs | Why Reserves are Bad for Founders & How Boutique Firms Will Win with Mark Goldberg @ Chemistry

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As always, I so appreciate all your support and stay tuned for an incredible episode coming on Monday with a business that was valued at over a billion dollars and overnight said no more SaaS company. We're going AI first and AI revenue only. An incredible turnaround story on Monday.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: The Truth About Multi-Stage Firms; Why Portfolio Services are for VCs not Founders | Why Politics is Rife & Decision-Making is Broken in Large VCs | Why Reserves are Bad for Founders & How Boutique Firms Will Win with Mark Goldberg @ Chemistry

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Is that not just nature of a maturing portfolio that even if you are a series A only investor at a multi-stage firm, if you're 10 years in to a year over a five year period, fuck, you've got 10 board seats there.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: The Truth About Multi-Stage Firms; Why Portfolio Services are for VCs not Founders | Why Politics is Rife & Decision-Making is Broken in Large VCs | Why Reserves are Bad for Founders & How Boutique Firms Will Win with Mark Goldberg @ Chemistry

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They would say that they have incredible teams and they have IR and they have legal and accounting and portfolio services, which mean they are able to just be finding the next Dylan Field. What do you say back to that?

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: The Truth About Multi-Stage Firms; Why Portfolio Services are for VCs not Founders | Why Politics is Rife & Decision-Making is Broken in Large VCs | Why Reserves are Bad for Founders & How Boutique Firms Will Win with Mark Goldberg @ Chemistry

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For those that do not know, prior to Chemistry, Mark was a partner at Index Ventures, where he led early stage investments in Plaid, Bridge, Pilot, Anrock, and Persona, to name a few. But before we dive in, what do Henry Ford and AI have in common? Neither could change the world without automation.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: The Truth About Multi-Stage Firms; Why Portfolio Services are for VCs not Founders | Why Politics is Rife & Decision-Making is Broken in Large VCs | Why Reserves are Bad for Founders & How Boutique Firms Will Win with Mark Goldberg @ Chemistry

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I think it's also used as a justification for the increase in fund size, because now you can show to LP as well. We've got 10 people in talent, 10 in BD. We even do sales for our companies, in which case we need the new huge fund because this is how we've structured our team.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: The Truth About Multi-Stage Firms; Why Portfolio Services are for VCs not Founders | Why Politics is Rife & Decision-Making is Broken in Large VCs | Why Reserves are Bad for Founders & How Boutique Firms Will Win with Mark Goldberg @ Chemistry

502.062

You said it kind of like, what would it be if it was like true alignment between GP and founder? Sounded so nice. So do you guys only take common shares then? I'm being serious. I can be deliberately spicy with you.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: The Truth About Multi-Stage Firms; Why Portfolio Services are for VCs not Founders | Why Politics is Rife & Decision-Making is Broken in Large VCs | Why Reserves are Bad for Founders & How Boutique Firms Will Win with Mark Goldberg @ Chemistry

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Do you know what? As I get older, Mark, I'm sorry. It's the end of the day on a Friday, dude. Like, no, I actually, I take the key through a boy's school of thought, which is like the best founders don't need you. I say to founders, listen, generally 90% of VCs don't really add value. I try to be no different, but I'm a really nice guy. I will always have more money for you.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: The Truth About Multi-Stage Firms; Why Portfolio Services are for VCs not Founders | Why Politics is Rife & Decision-Making is Broken in Large VCs | Why Reserves are Bad for Founders & How Boutique Firms Will Win with Mark Goldberg @ Chemistry

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And I have the world's best network. Other than that, inshallah. But I will never be a bad investor for you. And I'm super supportive. I think they love that. It's like, just don't get in my way. Give me fucking money and shut up. That's what they want.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: The Truth About Multi-Stage Firms; Why Portfolio Services are for VCs not Founders | Why Politics is Rife & Decision-Making is Broken in Large VCs | Why Reserves are Bad for Founders & How Boutique Firms Will Win with Mark Goldberg @ Chemistry

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In the future, there will be two types of businesses, those that have automated and those that wish they had. UiPath, the undisputed leader in automation, is taking us into the era of agentic automation. UiPath's new AI agents don't just follow rules, they think, they make decisions, they work alongside the world's most powerful software robots already trusted by over 10,000 businesses.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: The Truth About Multi-Stage Firms; Why Portfolio Services are for VCs not Founders | Why Politics is Rife & Decision-Making is Broken in Large VCs | Why Reserves are Bad for Founders & How Boutique Firms Will Win with Mark Goldberg @ Chemistry

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I agree with you. I think this is one of those ones where there's nuance because you're speaking from Silicon Valley and I'm speaking from Europe. Our competitive sets and landscapes are very different. I guess my question to you is like, when you looked at that landscape, why were you like, oh yes, we should be here?

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: The Truth About Multi-Stage Firms; Why Portfolio Services are for VCs not Founders | Why Politics is Rife & Decision-Making is Broken in Large VCs | Why Reserves are Bad for Founders & How Boutique Firms Will Win with Mark Goldberg @ Chemistry

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I think the younger the founder, the more they want the brand. It's the lesson that I have. Different to what people think. People think younger people will take a new firm, younger people. They crave the brand more. I find the second tier serial founders have had the multi-stage product before. They've seen that it's not all it's cracked up to be.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: The Truth About Multi-Stage Firms; Why Portfolio Services are for VCs not Founders | Why Politics is Rife & Decision-Making is Broken in Large VCs | Why Reserves are Bad for Founders & How Boutique Firms Will Win with Mark Goldberg @ Chemistry

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Doug Leone said to me, I think it was on a show. He said that the venture has transitioned from a high margin boutique community to a low margin commoditized industry. Do you agree with that transition?

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: The Truth About Multi-Stage Firms; Why Portfolio Services are for VCs not Founders | Why Politics is Rife & Decision-Making is Broken in Large VCs | Why Reserves are Bad for Founders & How Boutique Firms Will Win with Mark Goldberg @ Chemistry

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Their funds are relatively constrained for what they do. Like their seed fund is 190. I think their growth is like a billion. Like they're not crazy. They are always collated in this, like Sequoia raises 8 billion and you're like, wow. But actually when you look at it, they are quite constrained products.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: The Truth About Multi-Stage Firms; Why Portfolio Services are for VCs not Founders | Why Politics is Rife & Decision-Making is Broken in Large VCs | Why Reserves are Bad for Founders & How Boutique Firms Will Win with Mark Goldberg @ Chemistry

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The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: The Truth About Multi-Stage Firms; Why Portfolio Services are for VCs not Founders | Why Politics is Rife & Decision-Making is Broken in Large VCs | Why Reserves are Bad for Founders & How Boutique Firms Will Win with Mark Goldberg @ Chemistry

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So how big is the fund? The fund's $350 million. How did you... come to $350 million being the right size fund. And stage-wise, this is seed in A?

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: The Truth About Multi-Stage Firms; Why Portfolio Services are for VCs not Founders | Why Politics is Rife & Decision-Making is Broken in Large VCs | Why Reserves are Bad for Founders & How Boutique Firms Will Win with Mark Goldberg @ Chemistry

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Do you think it's big enough for the A? Because if you think about Series A funds, okay, if we take average Series A check, we're like, say, 10 to 15 million. Let's say 15 to be consistent. 15, 15, so we're at 300. Minus fees, that's your fund done. Not enough diversification and no seeds in that.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: The Truth About Multi-Stage Firms; Why Portfolio Services are for VCs not Founders | Why Politics is Rife & Decision-Making is Broken in Large VCs | Why Reserves are Bad for Founders & How Boutique Firms Will Win with Mark Goldberg @ Chemistry

927.26

I would argue, you know, I'm seeing... If you're doing Iliad from open AIs, it means a $10 billion check.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: The Truth About Multi-Stage Firms; Why Portfolio Services are for VCs not Founders | Why Politics is Rife & Decision-Making is Broken in Large VCs | Why Reserves are Bad for Founders & How Boutique Firms Will Win with Mark Goldberg @ Chemistry

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But does that work in terms of portfolio construction? Because that's on assuming no reserves. You just don't have enough.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20Sales: How Snowflake Built a Sales Machine | Why You Have to Hire a CRO Pre-Product | Why Most Sales Reps Do Not Perform | Why Hiring Panels are BS in Interviews | Why Remote Sales Reps Do Not Care About Their Development with Chad Peets

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I'm just interested. When we think about kind of moving from 50 ICP accounts to 150, to what extent are the product requests of those sales prospects that we want to add to that ICP profile, to what extent is that product request common and they all want the same thing? What do you do if it's like everyone kind of wants something different and it's like...

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20Sales: How Snowflake Built a Sales Machine | Why You Have to Hire a CRO Pre-Product | Why Most Sales Reps Do Not Perform | Why Hiring Panels are BS in Interviews | Why Remote Sales Reps Do Not Care About Their Development with Chad Peets

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Chad, I don't think I've ever been quite so excited about doing a show following a discussion pre us starting recording. So this is going to be a lot of fun. Thank you for joining me today.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20Sales: How Snowflake Built a Sales Machine | Why You Have to Hire a CRO Pre-Product | Why Most Sales Reps Do Not Perform | Why Hiring Panels are BS in Interviews | Why Remote Sales Reps Do Not Care About Their Development with Chad Peets

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Why is sales not doing product marketing if you have a thousand calls? I mean, right. I mean, seriously, just pause. Just let me run with this. If you have a thousand, not literally, but hundreds of calls with customers, you see the words, you see how they describe pain, the things that they look for, what excites them.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20Sales: How Snowflake Built a Sales Machine | Why You Have to Hire a CRO Pre-Product | Why Most Sales Reps Do Not Perform | Why Hiring Panels are BS in Interviews | Why Remote Sales Reps Do Not Care About Their Development with Chad Peets

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You can create the most compelling copy campaigns, billboards, you name it, because you're the ones that live those customer conversations. Why are you not doing product marketing too?

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20Sales: How Snowflake Built a Sales Machine | Why You Have to Hire a CRO Pre-Product | Why Most Sales Reps Do Not Perform | Why Hiring Panels are BS in Interviews | Why Remote Sales Reps Do Not Care About Their Development with Chad Peets

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Okay. When we think about that right type of sales org, what are the biggest ways that companies go wrong in creating that sales org?

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20Sales: How Snowflake Built a Sales Machine | Why You Have to Hire a CRO Pre-Product | Why Most Sales Reps Do Not Perform | Why Hiring Panels are BS in Interviews | Why Remote Sales Reps Do Not Care About Their Development with Chad Peets

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Okay. I'm the CEO and I have this. I have this where they don't trust each other. There is this bad culture between product and sales. Chad, what do I do now? Help me. You've come in. Lead. Lead. Your job as a CEO is to be a leader.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20Sales: How Snowflake Built a Sales Machine | Why You Have to Hire a CRO Pre-Product | Why Most Sales Reps Do Not Perform | Why Hiring Panels are BS in Interviews | Why Remote Sales Reps Do Not Care About Their Development with Chad Peets

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The thing I find just so fucked in sales orgs today is like measuring and incentives. And you said like, you know, tied to revenue there, but then we have some that are like tied to a load of different metrics, whether it's MQLs, SQLs, you name it. And I'm just going like, what is the right way to think about attribution and success within sales teams today?

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20Sales: How Snowflake Built a Sales Machine | Why You Have to Hire a CRO Pre-Product | Why Most Sales Reps Do Not Perform | Why Hiring Panels are BS in Interviews | Why Remote Sales Reps Do Not Care About Their Development with Chad Peets

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Do you know what? Also, I spoke to Chris Dagnon and Mike Spicer before this show. And if you want like hard heavyweights who are incredible at what they do, saying someone is the best in the world at what they do. I'm like, oh, shit. So I'm looking forward to this. So I want to start off with just a little bit, though, in terms of context. How did you make your way into sales first?

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20Sales: How Snowflake Built a Sales Machine | Why You Have to Hire a CRO Pre-Product | Why Most Sales Reps Do Not Perform | Why Hiring Panels are BS in Interviews | Why Remote Sales Reps Do Not Care About Their Development with Chad Peets

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Would you have different attribution then according to different companies that you work with? Or is it always, we're revenue, we're sales?

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20Sales: How Snowflake Built a Sales Machine | Why You Have to Hire a CRO Pre-Product | Why Most Sales Reps Do Not Perform | Why Hiring Panels are BS in Interviews | Why Remote Sales Reps Do Not Care About Their Development with Chad Peets

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How big an ACV do you think you have to have to have a proper sales motion to justify it? So my biggest worry today is you see a lot of SaaS companies have 10K ACVs. And actually, Jesus, when you have SDRs, AEs, customer success, for a 10K ACV that has a variability on expansion, it's not enough.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20Sales: How Snowflake Built a Sales Machine | Why You Have to Hire a CRO Pre-Product | Why Most Sales Reps Do Not Perform | Why Hiring Panels are BS in Interviews | Why Remote Sales Reps Do Not Care About Their Development with Chad Peets

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How do you think about ramp time? When we think about getting to that 3x OTE, a lot of people say, well, it's enterprise sales. It's very long sales cycles. The ramp time's tough. How do you think about that?

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20Sales: How Snowflake Built a Sales Machine | Why You Have to Hire a CRO Pre-Product | Why Most Sales Reps Do Not Perform | Why Hiring Panels are BS in Interviews | Why Remote Sales Reps Do Not Care About Their Development with Chad Peets

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Do you think people hire or founders specifically hire sales enablement early enough? And I'm intrigued. What do you think are the biggest mistakes you see founders make with enablement?

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20Sales: How Snowflake Built a Sales Machine | Why You Have to Hire a CRO Pre-Product | Why Most Sales Reps Do Not Perform | Why Hiring Panels are BS in Interviews | Why Remote Sales Reps Do Not Care About Their Development with Chad Peets

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You said about incentivizing expansions. It made me think of a conversation I had with Chris before when we spoke about CS, customer success. Often customer success are attributed or given the role of expansions and making sure that customers expand as they would want to.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20Sales: How Snowflake Built a Sales Machine | Why You Have to Hire a CRO Pre-Product | Why Most Sales Reps Do Not Perform | Why Hiring Panels are BS in Interviews | Why Remote Sales Reps Do Not Care About Their Development with Chad Peets

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When you see founders today and when you work with companies today, what are the biggest mistakes you see in terms of that relationship between sales and customer success?

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20Sales: How Snowflake Built a Sales Machine | Why You Have to Hire a CRO Pre-Product | Why Most Sales Reps Do Not Perform | Why Hiring Panels are BS in Interviews | Why Remote Sales Reps Do Not Care About Their Development with Chad Peets

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It completely is different. We mentioned there about kind of Chris, Snowflake, they're not agreeing with CS. I'm just interested because when I spoke to Chris beforehand, he said that you were essentially core to hiring really the entire sales team for the first five years at Snowflake. I just want to dive into that because you mentioned before about the velocity that you had.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20Sales: How Snowflake Built a Sales Machine | Why You Have to Hire a CRO Pre-Product | Why Most Sales Reps Do Not Perform | Why Hiring Panels are BS in Interviews | Why Remote Sales Reps Do Not Care About Their Development with Chad Peets

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Then you got to dig in. What is the biggest reason why previously well-performing rep turns into a non-performing rep?

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20Sales: How Snowflake Built a Sales Machine | Why You Have to Hire a CRO Pre-Product | Why Most Sales Reps Do Not Perform | Why Hiring Panels are BS in Interviews | Why Remote Sales Reps Do Not Care About Their Development with Chad Peets

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Are there any other core elements that you absolutely nailed with Snowflake that enabled the velocity, the scaling of that sales machine that we haven't touched on?

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20Sales: How Snowflake Built a Sales Machine | Why You Have to Hire a CRO Pre-Product | Why Most Sales Reps Do Not Perform | Why Hiring Panels are BS in Interviews | Why Remote Sales Reps Do Not Care About Their Development with Chad Peets

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On the flip side, what did you not do well? When you look back now, you're like, okay, we nailed the consistency of messaging. We nailed the process. What are you like, with the benefit of hindsight, we'd do that differently?

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20Sales: How Snowflake Built a Sales Machine | Why You Have to Hire a CRO Pre-Product | Why Most Sales Reps Do Not Perform | Why Hiring Panels are BS in Interviews | Why Remote Sales Reps Do Not Care About Their Development with Chad Peets

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What have been your biggest mistakes in recruiting? I heard you were the best in the world at sales recruiting. That's something from Spicer.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20Sales: How Snowflake Built a Sales Machine | Why You Have to Hire a CRO Pre-Product | Why Most Sales Reps Do Not Perform | Why Hiring Panels are BS in Interviews | Why Remote Sales Reps Do Not Care About Their Development with Chad Peets

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Everyone wants to work at a hot company. Snowflake's a sexy company in many respects. And when it was growing super fast as a startup, it was, how do you detect the company, the people who just want to seat on the rocket ship because it's a rocket ship?

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20Sales: How Snowflake Built a Sales Machine | Why You Have to Hire a CRO Pre-Product | Why Most Sales Reps Do Not Perform | Why Hiring Panels are BS in Interviews | Why Remote Sales Reps Do Not Care About Their Development with Chad Peets

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I prioritize quality over quantity. Is what you're saying, there are much fewer sales people and talent that are willing to give the intensity, the competitiveness, the unwavering commitment that is required to be excellent?

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20Sales: How Snowflake Built a Sales Machine | Why You Have to Hire a CRO Pre-Product | Why Most Sales Reps Do Not Perform | Why Hiring Panels are BS in Interviews | Why Remote Sales Reps Do Not Care About Their Development with Chad Peets

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I love you, Chad. No, one, I totally agree with you. But I also think there's like real information advantages that come from physical co-location, which is like, oh, you hear product talk about the new feature that they're building. You hear customer support talk about problems. You hear those customer conversations.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20Sales: How Snowflake Built a Sales Machine | Why You Have to Hire a CRO Pre-Product | Why Most Sales Reps Do Not Perform | Why Hiring Panels are BS in Interviews | Why Remote Sales Reps Do Not Care About Their Development with Chad Peets

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So I think content is the most important thing in the world today when it comes to the sales process. Because I think if you call me and say, hey, I'm here from Snowflake. And I go, oh, I actually loved your guide that you released last month. What can I help with? Suddenly that's a much better sale.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20Sales: How Snowflake Built a Sales Machine | Why You Have to Hire a CRO Pre-Product | Why Most Sales Reps Do Not Perform | Why Hiring Panels are BS in Interviews | Why Remote Sales Reps Do Not Care About Their Development with Chad Peets

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It's also where verticalization helps a lot. If you are selling to restaurants only, I can way more... Totally agree. Because it's customized content, right? And that's why it's so interesting you said earlier, you like the horizontal approach. I love the verticalized approach. I look at Notion and I look at Airtable and I look at all these companies. Actually, question for you.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20Sales: How Snowflake Built a Sales Machine | Why You Have to Hire a CRO Pre-Product | Why Most Sales Reps Do Not Perform | Why Hiring Panels are BS in Interviews | Why Remote Sales Reps Do Not Care About Their Development with Chad Peets

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All of them are trying to scale into enterprise with a PLG motion. I think that's really fucking hard. Getting the world's biggest enterprises to adopt Notion. Are you kidding me?

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20Sales: How Snowflake Built a Sales Machine | Why You Have to Hire a CRO Pre-Product | Why Most Sales Reps Do Not Perform | Why Hiring Panels are BS in Interviews | Why Remote Sales Reps Do Not Care About Their Development with Chad Peets

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This is 20 Sales with me, Harry Stebbings, the show where we sit down with the best sales leaders in the world and unveil their tips and tactics. Today, this is the best 20 sales I have ever done. The guest is an absolute OG. and one of the greatest sales leaders and recruiters of the last 25 years, Chad Peets.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20Sales: How Snowflake Built a Sales Machine | Why You Have to Hire a CRO Pre-Product | Why Most Sales Reps Do Not Perform | Why Hiring Panels are BS in Interviews | Why Remote Sales Reps Do Not Care About Their Development with Chad Peets

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One of the biggest mistakes I find founders make that I invest in is they say, too early, we're going to expand into enterprise. They say, oh, we're getting pulled in, we're getting pulled in. And I'm like, you're $3 million in ARR. You don't need to be pulled anywhere. How do you think about timing of the expansion?

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20Sales: How Snowflake Built a Sales Machine | Why You Have to Hire a CRO Pre-Product | Why Most Sales Reps Do Not Perform | Why Hiring Panels are BS in Interviews | Why Remote Sales Reps Do Not Care About Their Development with Chad Peets

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Do you agree with the common statement that your smallest customers will most often be your most painful?

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20Sales: How Snowflake Built a Sales Machine | Why You Have to Hire a CRO Pre-Product | Why Most Sales Reps Do Not Perform | Why Hiring Panels are BS in Interviews | Why Remote Sales Reps Do Not Care About Their Development with Chad Peets

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Gross revenue retention or net revenue retention? I always have this conversation with Dave. Two different metrics that measure two different things. Which one do you think founders should focus on more? Everyone talks about NRR.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20Sales: How Snowflake Built a Sales Machine | Why You Have to Hire a CRO Pre-Product | Why Most Sales Reps Do Not Perform | Why Hiring Panels are BS in Interviews | Why Remote Sales Reps Do Not Care About Their Development with Chad Peets

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If your GRR starts to slip and the company starts to not do as well, it's tough to have that morale that's still in good shape. It's a problem. How do you advise sales leaders on how to keep a sales team together when you're in a really shit patch and there's not momentum and it's just shit?

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20Sales: How Snowflake Built a Sales Machine | Why You Have to Hire a CRO Pre-Product | Why Most Sales Reps Do Not Perform | Why Hiring Panels are BS in Interviews | Why Remote Sales Reps Do Not Care About Their Development with Chad Peets

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I think the challenge I often see is I think CEOs set forecasts or set revenue goals, which are well above the expectations or beliefs of a CRO. And it sets everyone up for failure.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20Sales: How Snowflake Built a Sales Machine | Why You Have to Hire a CRO Pre-Product | Why Most Sales Reps Do Not Perform | Why Hiring Panels are BS in Interviews | Why Remote Sales Reps Do Not Care About Their Development with Chad Peets

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What is the biggest way that people fuck up onboarding? I had that head of SDRs from Rippling on the show. She's hired 350 SDRs in a year or two years. That's a lot. Yeah, I mean, no, I'm credit to her. I'm saying that with compliments, but it's like, I'm thinking about the onboarding. It's got to be programmatic and you got to dedicate resources to it.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20Sales: How Snowflake Built a Sales Machine | Why You Have to Hire a CRO Pre-Product | Why Most Sales Reps Do Not Perform | Why Hiring Panels are BS in Interviews | Why Remote Sales Reps Do Not Care About Their Development with Chad Peets

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Chad, I could talk to you all day. I kind of knew that from the first moment when you said about Wall Street. But I want to start, I'm sorry, I want to finish on a quick fire round. So I say a short statement, you give me your immediate thoughts. Does that sound okay? Sure. What have you changed your mind on most in the last 12 months?

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20Sales: How Snowflake Built a Sales Machine | Why You Have to Hire a CRO Pre-Product | Why Most Sales Reps Do Not Perform | Why Hiring Panels are BS in Interviews | Why Remote Sales Reps Do Not Care About Their Development with Chad Peets

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take the time to invest in your career reach out to people to learn learn as fast as you can and work as hard as you can and you will become better than everybody else around you on the flip side in terms of hierarchy you've got a sales leader and i call you up the night before i'm starting my first like role as a sales leader what would you advise me knowing all that you do now

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20Sales: How Snowflake Built a Sales Machine | Why You Have to Hire a CRO Pre-Product | Why Most Sales Reps Do Not Perform | Why Hiring Panels are BS in Interviews | Why Remote Sales Reps Do Not Care About Their Development with Chad Peets

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How do you do that? Because most people do like customer discovery where they ask the most inane, annoying questions. You know, what are your most prying challenges? And as a customer, you're like, for fuck's sake, this is a crap experience.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20Sales: How Snowflake Built a Sales Machine | Why You Have to Hire a CRO Pre-Product | Why Most Sales Reps Do Not Perform | Why Hiring Panels are BS in Interviews | Why Remote Sales Reps Do Not Care About Their Development with Chad Peets

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Tell me, what's the biggest mistake you see founders make in scaling to 10 million in ARL? In that first journey, what is the biggest mistake that you see founders that you work with make?

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20Sales: How Snowflake Built a Sales Machine | Why You Have to Hire a CRO Pre-Product | Why Most Sales Reps Do Not Perform | Why Hiring Panels are BS in Interviews | Why Remote Sales Reps Do Not Care About Their Development with Chad Peets

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Final one for you, Chad. What question are you not normally asked that you think you should be asked more?

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20Sales: How Snowflake Built a Sales Machine | Why You Have to Hire a CRO Pre-Product | Why Most Sales Reps Do Not Perform | Why Hiring Panels are BS in Interviews | Why Remote Sales Reps Do Not Care About Their Development with Chad Peets

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Chad, listen, I absolutely love this. I knew when Degnan and Spicer said what they did, it would be a special one. But thank you so much for doing this. And I've so enjoyed it.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20Sales: How Snowflake Built a Sales Machine | Why You Have to Hire a CRO Pre-Product | Why Most Sales Reps Do Not Perform | Why Hiring Panels are BS in Interviews | Why Remote Sales Reps Do Not Care About Their Development with Chad Peets

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I mean, I think that's probably the best 20 sales that we've ever done. The thing I love so much about Chad, honestly, is you get so much BS or presentation from most guests on the show. That was raw. It was honest. I thought Chad was fantastic. If you want to see more and watch the full episode, you can on YouTube, of course, by searching for 20VC. That's 20VC.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20Sales: How Snowflake Built a Sales Machine | Why You Have to Hire a CRO Pre-Product | Why Most Sales Reps Do Not Perform | Why Hiring Panels are BS in Interviews | Why Remote Sales Reps Do Not Care About Their Development with Chad Peets

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But before we leave you today, we need to talk about our sponsor for the day, Clary. Clary is an industry-leading AI-powered revenue platform that is purpose-built to help companies optimize their end-to-end revenue process.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20Sales: How Snowflake Built a Sales Machine | Why You Have to Hire a CRO Pre-Product | Why Most Sales Reps Do Not Perform | Why Hiring Panels are BS in Interviews | Why Remote Sales Reps Do Not Care About Their Development with Chad Peets

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With over $4 trillion in revenue under management, Clary's customers have a material advantage to optimize their enterprise revenue process across all teams, from rep to the boardroom. by leveraging the world's largest and fastest growing AI reservoir of enterprise revenue expertise.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20Sales: How Snowflake Built a Sales Machine | Why You Have to Hire a CRO Pre-Product | Why Most Sales Reps Do Not Perform | Why Hiring Panels are BS in Interviews | Why Remote Sales Reps Do Not Care About Their Development with Chad Peets

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More than 1,500 organizations including Okta, Adobe, Workday, Zoom and Finastra run revenue on Clary to improve win rates, prevent slip deals, forecast with accuracy and boost the productivity of all revenue critical employees. To learn more about how you can create, convert and close revenue with Clary, visit clary.com.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20Sales: How Snowflake Built a Sales Machine | Why You Have to Hire a CRO Pre-Product | Why Most Sales Reps Do Not Perform | Why Hiring Panels are BS in Interviews | Why Remote Sales Reps Do Not Care About Their Development with Chad Peets

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As always, I so appreciate all your support and stay tuned for an incredible episode coming on Monday with Imran Khan, the OG of public markets. The man took Alibaba public. He also took Snap public. There is no better person for a public company breakdown.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20Sales: How Snowflake Built a Sales Machine | Why You Have to Hire a CRO Pre-Product | Why Most Sales Reps Do Not Perform | Why Hiring Panels are BS in Interviews | Why Remote Sales Reps Do Not Care About Their Development with Chad Peets

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But you mentioned the focus and knowing the customer so intimately well. Wonderful. But what do you do in a world which isn't verticalized sales when you have a horizontal customer base, which could be in aerospace or it could be in fintech and banking? How do you do that when you have a horizontal customer base you're selling?

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20Sales: How Snowflake Built a Sales Machine | Why You Have to Hire a CRO Pre-Product | Why Most Sales Reps Do Not Perform | Why Hiring Panels are BS in Interviews | Why Remote Sales Reps Do Not Care About Their Development with Chad Peets

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Chad is the man who was instrumental in the hiring process of Snowflake's sales team for the first five years, alongside Chris Degnan. He was then a managing director at Sutter Hill, one of the great firms of the last two decades. This is one of the best, as I said. It's time to get the notebooks out. There's a lot in this one.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20Sales: How Snowflake Built a Sales Machine | Why You Have to Hire a CRO Pre-Product | Why Most Sales Reps Do Not Perform | Why Hiring Panels are BS in Interviews | Why Remote Sales Reps Do Not Care About Their Development with Chad Peets

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Development is key because if you don't care about getting better, then you don't care about your career. What you just said sounds lovely, but salespeople who are good are often good at selling themselves. How do you detect the BS in the, I want growth, development, empowerment? No, I fucking don't. I just want the money.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20Sales: How Snowflake Built a Sales Machine | Why You Have to Hire a CRO Pre-Product | Why Most Sales Reps Do Not Perform | Why Hiring Panels are BS in Interviews | Why Remote Sales Reps Do Not Care About Their Development with Chad Peets

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I can validate that based on the career moves in your resume. To what extent do you place weight on references? And what I mean by that? A lot. Culture can be different. It can be not suited to someone. Some cultures are suited, some are not. Some leaders are suited, some are not. How do you think about the weight on references and how to do that well and right?

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20Sales: How Snowflake Built a Sales Machine | Why You Have to Hire a CRO Pre-Product | Why Most Sales Reps Do Not Perform | Why Hiring Panels are BS in Interviews | Why Remote Sales Reps Do Not Care About Their Development with Chad Peets

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Can I ask a blunt question? There's going to be a lot of people who listen and go, well, that's not going to encourage a diverse set of candidates.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20Sales: How Snowflake Built a Sales Machine | Why You Have to Hire a CRO Pre-Product | Why Most Sales Reps Do Not Perform | Why Hiring Panels are BS in Interviews | Why Remote Sales Reps Do Not Care About Their Development with Chad Peets

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But before we dive in, we need to talk about our sponsor for the day, Clary. Clary is an industry-leading AI-powered revenue platform that is purpose-built to help companies optimize their end-to-end revenue process.

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So you have to look for the next generation. This was one of my questions, which was like, it's often said that actually it's so hard being a sales leader. No one in their right mind would do it twice. Is that true? Early stage, 100%.

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You think you know, but you don't know. You do customer discovery before and during product build. Who's doing it? Hopefully the founder. Yeah.

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With over $4 trillion in revenue under management, Clary's customers have a material advantage to optimize their enterprise revenue process across all teams, from rep to the boardroom, by leveraging the world's largest and fastest-growing AI reservoir of enterprise revenue expertise.

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Just so I understand, what do you believe that sales leaders or CROs, pre-product, bring that a founder cannot? The extensive nature of the questions they ask?

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And by the way, they're not the best people to do it. So we always hear that actually, you know, you should create the sales playbook as the founder. And then once you have some form of early playbook, you should hire the sales leader.

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So do you then have to, by nature, raise large seed rounds? Because if you're going to bring in a CRO and a couple of people, this is not a $2 to $3 million seed round.

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You don't need 20, but you probably need 10. Is that a genuinely viable and realistic option though?

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I agree with that completely. I think the data probably shows that. But once you have that CRO then in place, I'm just intrigued because when we chatted before, you said that you're super passionate about building the right type of sales org. And when you said this, I was like, great. But what does the right type of sales org actually mean in reality? How do you think about that?

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More than 1,500 organizations, including Okta, Adobe, Workday, Zoom, and Finastra, run revenue on Clary to improve win rates, prevent slip deals, forecast with accuracy, and boost the productivity of all revenue-critical employees. To learn more about how you can create, convert, and close revenue with Clary, visit clary.com. You have now arrived at your destination.

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What are the biggest mistakes that you see founders and growth leaders make when it comes to setting that North Star metric, that guiding user metric that determines successful growth?

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I'm totally with you. The biggest mistake that I see as an investor today, you know, with the investing ad is like focus on revenue. And it's actually like actually seats per contract drives the total revenue size. And so the growth team should be focused on what product changes or growth initiatives can we do to increase the per seat contract?

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And speaking of truly game-changing products, when I spoke to Canva co-founder Cliff Obrecht on the podcast last year, he touched on how visual content is fast becoming the fuel that's driving the modern workplace. Your team needs to create an engaging visual pitch deck to sell in an idea. A product launch needs an inspiring video to excite investors and customers.

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We're going to dive into the nitty gritty, like we mentioned there. Really, I'm so excited for that across a couple of different examples as well. I did just want to start, though, on a statement that you said before about consumer subscription, which is kind of a core focus for you in growth and one of my passion points, reason why I have few friends.

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You've said before that, you know, in particular, consumer subscription apps are easy to launch, but hard to scale. If we just deconstruct that, why are they easy to launch?

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And I think what you're seeing with a lot of AI consumer subscription products is the revenue scalability is very sharp. You're able to ramp much quicker than with AEs and SDRs and BDRs and the customer success teams. But then let's go to that. Why are they hard to scale?

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Projects gather steam with visual whiteboards. That's where Canva can help. It's a game changer for visual communication at work. Canva turns your team into master visual communicators so they can get their point across with visual impact inside and outside your business.

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So I wanted to start just at the start of this funnel. I love this. This is freaking as much down my alley as possible. If we start just on the CACs alone, when you review the different companies that you've worked at and CACs and how they change over time, do CACs get higher as you saturate your core market and expand into ancillary markets that are maybe less direct?

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Or do they get lower because you get brand recognition, word of mouth, and a lot of other ancillary benefits from just being bigger and more pronounced?

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With no design experience needed, with Canva, any team member and any company, whether you're a startup or a global organization, can design compelling on-brand visual content quickly and easily. That's why 90% of the Fortune 500 use Canva. Start designing today at canva.com. Designed for work. You have now arrived at your destination. Phil, I am so excited for this, dude.

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So what should early stage startups do if you don't get enough data with five to ten thousand dollars a month, but you don't have huge amounts of money? What do you recommend they do?

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When do you think we should start thinking about secondary channels? Because you don't want to get to a stage where you saturate efficiency and suddenly you're pretty screwed, actually, because your channel's topping out and you don't have a secondary and you don't have any others that you've tested or tried at all.

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But then you also don't want to be diverting attention and resources away from a channel that's working when it's so hard to get just one working.

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Phil, can we just spend our way to dominance? Can we spend our way to growth?

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We were just chatting and I was like, shit, I wish we were recording this. But thank you so much for joining me today.

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On the CAC and the payback element, CAC obviously is incredibly important because the higher the CAC, the longer the payback will be if the ARPU is the same. What is good versus great in terms of payback when you're looking at consumer subscription apps today?

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That's very, very kind of you. I would love to just start with some context. So it's been a pretty diverse and interesting career. But why are you so versed to discuss the topics that we're about to discuss diving into the granular of growth?

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And you have to have it within that time period because the churn rates are just so high. I mean, I'm going to butcher this and I hope Lewis at Duolingo doesn't sue me, but I think like, you know, retention rates on Duolingo is like 50% for 12 months and that's considered great. How do you think about retention rates of good versus great after different time periods?

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And help me out as an investor here. What time period should I be looking at, Phil? Should it be 30, 60, 90? Should it be 30, 180, 365? What are the important time milestones and what is good for them?

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I think that's why you can't have vertical consumer subscription. You can have vertical SaaS with dentists, with gardeners, with architects. You can't with consumer subs because you just churn through so many. You have to have such a big original pool.

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so i argue with nico at adjacent all the time about this and he is fucking successful and i think the world of him so he's right and i'm wrong but i don't think consumer subscription as an asset class as a subcategory or category is a venture backable large enough category there might be one like duolingo and maybe a couple more but that make it to venture scale returns

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Like when you think about... I went through that list though, and I was looking at half the private names thinking I can buy these on secondaries for 50% of this price.

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Do you think the harsh revenue multiple applied to consumer subscription businesses is fair or unfairly ascribed to them?

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We were talking before about the definition of growth. If I were to ask you, how do you define growth and growth team? What comes to mind when I say that?

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You mentioned some great consumer subscription businesses that Tinder, Spotify being two of them. And you said that if you want to build a monster consumer subscription business, every successful one is built on an enduring core value promise. What is a core value promise? And how do you describe that to founders listening?

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How do you solve for that, dude? You mentioned Aura, there's Whoop as well. I see so many people and, bluntly, everyone says, hey, I kind of get what works and what doesn't after a certain time period. What would you do if you were within Whoop or Aura to solve for that diminishing value over time?

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You mentioned that the stats, the streaks element, there's also like badges and leaderboards and notifications. If we take that as a kind of tactic that people use or a lever that people use for engagement, for retention, what are the biggest lessons that you have in how to do stats, streaks, badges well?

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Do you buy notifications as a retention mechanism today? They are so overused. We have such notification overload. How do you think about that?

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But I would actually argue against Lewis here, which is incredibly bold of me, given that he's created a $10 billion company and I haven't at all. So very venture capitalist of me and my confidence here. But it is like bluntly saying, hey, the less that you do, maybe the more value that one ascribes to it.

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Not really in the grand scheme of notification overload, where people are just paying less attention to other notifications because there are so many. If you did less, people won't put more value on it because they're just getting bombarded. Do you see what I mean?

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If you send fewer, people won't pay more attention because they're just drowning in 50 other channel notifications from every other... Yeah.

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This is 20 Growth with me, Harry Stebbings. 20 Growth is the monthly show where we sit down with the best growth leaders in the world to unpack their strategies and tactics. Today is probably the most dense episode when it comes to really granular tactical advice.

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I think notifications like social posts, which is very simple. Everyone must either educate or inspire. Educate would be a great example. Aura goes, well done. You got 92 out of 100 on your sleep. Oh, great. I learned that I got 92 out of 100. Spotify goes, hey, Dua Lipa's new album came out. Great. I didn't know Dua Lipa's got a new album. Fantastic. The ones that don't work are like, hurry.

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So the next step post definition is great. Should we have a growth team that is separate or should we have it baked into product, into marketing? How do you answer that to founders that ask?

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X happens if you don't. Right. But there's no actual learning or inspiration.

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Another cool element that I just love to dig in on with you while I have the chance is like paywall visibility and conversion is one of probably the most important ones to think about. How do you think about paywall visibility and conversion and lessons from the greats?

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What is paywall view rate, just so we understand the basics, the amount of people that see the paywall?

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How do you think about hard decisions on paywalls? There's quite a few products. I think PhotoRoom is one of them, which has a very hard product decision where you don't get anything for free. It's like you hit it and you got to pay versus three free, a freemium layer. How do you think about that hard versus softer paywall decision?

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Thinking of those different price points, how do you think about single versus multiple tiers when it comes to pricing?

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What are the biggest mistakes you think startups make when it comes to the pricing and the packaging of their products in this way?

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Why do you think Tinder has done so, and what can we learn from them in that respect?

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I think one thing they do really well is kind of the gamification of it in a way, though, actually. And that takes me to, like, games love to give easy levels to start with. Oh, yay, I passed level one, super easy. And it makes me think of, like, time to value. How important do we think or how do we think about time to value today in consumer subs apps?

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I would love to see the abandonment rate and how it changes in the different durations of the flow. Because no one's going to go through 15 minutes and be like, ah, fuck it. Nah, don't feel like it. You're like, I'm nearly there. I'm nearly there.

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But the final element I do want to discuss, though, is the element of discounts and promotions. They can be a real lever to juice up conversions, to juice up engagement. How do you feel about the most effective discounting methods? And are they effective?

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Can I ask you, if you have a seasonal behavior, like you said there with Quizlet or like you might have with diet apps where New Year is often a big time in terms of starting new habits, new routines. Do you just say to them when you're messaging to investors, embrace seasonality and say, hey, we can't help it?

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Or is there anything you can do to juice it to prevent the seasonal lows being as fucking brutal as they can be?

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So then do you as a team then just go, ah, fuck it. They're all on summer holidays anyway. Like, let's just prep product for the next.

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How do you think about when's the right time to hire a growth team? I actually interviewed someone and they said you should hire one pre-product market fit because product market fit is about getting the data to determine what works and what doesn't work. And growth people will be able to increase the supply side of data.

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I'm going to give you a quick fire round where I give you a statement and you give me your immediate thoughts. So what's the most common irreversible mistake you see founders make?

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Penultimate one, what have you changed your mind on in the last 12 months?

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20Growth: The 7 Core Levers to Win at Consumer Subscription: Growth Loops, CAC + LTV Benchmarks, Pricing, Packaging, Notifications, Discounts, Paywalls | The Breakdown with Phil Carter

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Final one, Phil, what's the best growth strategy you've seen enacted in the last 12 months?

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20Growth: The 7 Core Levers to Win at Consumer Subscription: Growth Loops, CAC + LTV Benchmarks, Pricing, Packaging, Notifications, Discounts, Paywalls | The Breakdown with Phil Carter

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Joining us in the hot seat is Phil Carter, one of the best growth leaders of the last decade, helping world-class companies like FAIR, Quizlet, and Ibotta accelerate their growth. But before we dive in today, as this is my growth podcast,

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20Growth: The 7 Core Levers to Win at Consumer Subscription: Growth Loops, CAC + LTV Benchmarks, Pricing, Packaging, Notifications, Discounts, Paywalls | The Breakdown with Phil Carter

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My question to you, you said you were an investor in that company. You're going to hate me for this. Isn't that the definition of a company that can get to 30, 40, 50 million in revenue, but even a hundred million in revenue, it's not enough with a three X multiple applied to it.

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20Growth: The 7 Core Levers to Win at Consumer Subscription: Growth Loops, CAC + LTV Benchmarks, Pricing, Packaging, Notifications, Discounts, Paywalls | The Breakdown with Phil Carter

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Phil, I've loved doing this. Thank you so much for putting up with my wayward questions. You've been incredible in terms of bringing me back from that, but I've loved it. So thank you so much for joining me. Of course, it was my pleasure. Thanks for having me here. What can I say? I told you. The most granular and tactical episode we've done in a long time. I so love doing shows like that.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20Growth: The 7 Core Levers to Win at Consumer Subscription: Growth Loops, CAC + LTV Benchmarks, Pricing, Packaging, Notifications, Discounts, Paywalls | The Breakdown with Phil Carter

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And you can watch it on YouTube by searching for 20VC. That's 2-0-V-C. But before we leave you today, as this is my growth podcast, I'm so excited to share with you the story of the fastest growing company in my portfolio, Voyantis.ai, who isn't being asked by their board to improve unit economics. Voyantis is the first and only company I've seen that has found the way for you to crack this nut.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20Growth: The 7 Core Levers to Win at Consumer Subscription: Growth Loops, CAC + LTV Benchmarks, Pricing, Packaging, Notifications, Discounts, Paywalls | The Breakdown with Phil Carter

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By not only leveraging your first-party data to predict customers' lifetime value, but truly coupling these predictions with a prescriptive layer integrating with and influencing each and every step of your customer's growth journey, Voyantis helps you acquire the right customers in Google and Meta, allocate incentives to the right customers via your Salesforce and Braze, and trigger the right upsell option at the right time for each of your customers.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20Growth: The 7 Core Levers to Win at Consumer Subscription: Growth Loops, CAC + LTV Benchmarks, Pricing, Packaging, Notifications, Discounts, Paywalls | The Breakdown with Phil Carter

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Oh, and the best part, Voyantis are not only increasing ROI by 20-40% and improving the quality of your customers, their solution has already improved unit economics for leading companies such as Miro, Rappi, Moneyline, and many, many more.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20Growth: The 7 Core Levers to Win at Consumer Subscription: Growth Loops, CAC + LTV Benchmarks, Pricing, Packaging, Notifications, Discounts, Paywalls | The Breakdown with Phil Carter

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So if you want to improve your LTV CAC ratio before your next board meeting, start by heading over to voyantis.ai.20vc, that's V-O-Y-N-T-I-S.A-I.20vc to get a free value assessment. And speaking of game-changing product with Voyantis there, many founders I've talked to touch on this idea of, if you want to go fast, go alone. Want to go far? Then go together.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20Growth: The 7 Core Levers to Win at Consumer Subscription: Growth Loops, CAC + LTV Benchmarks, Pricing, Packaging, Notifications, Discounts, Paywalls | The Breakdown with Phil Carter

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Canva helps your team go far together with their collaboration tools. Your team can work together in real time on the same presentation, dock, whiteboard, and more. With name-labeled cursors, tag teammates in comments, and assigned tasks, Canva supercharges teamwork and simplifies workflows. With Canva, you can go far together and fast thanks to Canva's AI tools.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20Growth: The 7 Core Levers to Win at Consumer Subscription: Growth Loops, CAC + LTV Benchmarks, Pricing, Packaging, Notifications, Discounts, Paywalls | The Breakdown with Phil Carter

4720.515

Generate text and slides in seconds. It's a serious time saver. And because AI is built right into Canva, your team can stay on task with no app switching. You can also save costs by aggregating your visual communication tools. With Canva, save costs, save time, make workflow. Start designing today at canva.com. Designed for work.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20Growth: The 7 Core Levers to Win at Consumer Subscription: Growth Loops, CAC + LTV Benchmarks, Pricing, Packaging, Notifications, Discounts, Paywalls | The Breakdown with Phil Carter

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As always, I so appreciate all your support and stay tuned for an incredible episode. The first time Dimitri Gursky, co-founder at Flow, has ever been on a podcast. This is the number one period tracking app on a podcast on Monday on 20VC.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20Growth: The 7 Core Levers to Win at Consumer Subscription: Growth Loops, CAC + LTV Benchmarks, Pricing, Packaging, Notifications, Discounts, Paywalls | The Breakdown with Phil Carter

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Do you think growth leaders and teams should be focused on iterating on backlinks to optimize SEO for Quizlet to ensure that you're one of the top ranked sites in the country? Or should they be focused on one or two really big bets per year that will change the trajectory of a company? How do you think about that? Little iterations which lead to changes or big bets that are bold? Sure.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20Growth: The 7 Core Levers to Win at Consumer Subscription: Growth Loops, CAC + LTV Benchmarks, Pricing, Packaging, Notifications, Discounts, Paywalls | The Breakdown with Phil Carter

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I'm so excited to share with you the story of the fastest growing company in my portfolio, Voyantis.ai, who isn't being asked by their board to improve unit economics.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20Growth: The 7 Core Levers to Win at Consumer Subscription: Growth Loops, CAC + LTV Benchmarks, Pricing, Packaging, Notifications, Discounts, Paywalls | The Breakdown with Phil Carter

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What are the biggest mistakes that you think startups make when they hire the first one or two people in growth?

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20Growth: The 7 Core Levers to Win at Consumer Subscription: Growth Loops, CAC + LTV Benchmarks, Pricing, Packaging, Notifications, Discounts, Paywalls | The Breakdown with Phil Carter

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Voyantis is the first and only company I've seen that has found the way for you to crack this nut by not only leveraging your first party data to predict customers' lifetime value, but truly coupling these predictions with a prescriptive layer integrating with and influencing each and every step of your customer's growth journey.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20Growth: The 7 Core Levers to Win at Consumer Subscription: Growth Loops, CAC + LTV Benchmarks, Pricing, Packaging, Notifications, Discounts, Paywalls | The Breakdown with Phil Carter

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So you're an angel in my company and I'm hiring this first few growth people. And I'm like, the interview process, okay, I want those traits. What questions should I ask that will lead to revealing answers that will let me know if they're potentially good growth hires?

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20Growth: The 7 Core Levers to Win at Consumer Subscription: Growth Loops, CAC + LTV Benchmarks, Pricing, Packaging, Notifications, Discounts, Paywalls | The Breakdown with Phil Carter

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Voiantis helps you acquire the right customers in Google and Meta, allocate incentives to the right customers via your Salesforce and Braze, and trigger the right upsell option at the right time for each of your customers. Oh, and the best part?

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20Growth: The 7 Core Levers to Win at Consumer Subscription: Growth Loops, CAC + LTV Benchmarks, Pricing, Packaging, Notifications, Discounts, Paywalls | The Breakdown with Phil Carter

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And I think that they could fuck up in that process that would make you go, oh, not a good response to a take-home assignment.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20Growth: The 7 Core Levers to Win at Consumer Subscription: Growth Loops, CAC + LTV Benchmarks, Pricing, Packaging, Notifications, Discounts, Paywalls | The Breakdown with Phil Carter

99.419

Voiantis are not only increasing ROI by 20-40% and improving the quality of your customers, their solution has already improved unit economics for leading companies such as Miro, Rappi, Moneyline, and many, many more.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20Growth: Revolut's Chief Growth Officer on The Growth Playbook Revolut Used to Scale to $2.2BN in Revenue | How Revolut Launch and Grow Products | Why the Best PMs Don't Need A/B Tests & Why CAC is a BS Metric with Antoine Le Nel

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Start designing today at canva.com. Designed for work. And talking about growth, let's dive into how Voyantis is transforming customer acquisition. As this is my growth podcast, I'm so excited to share with you the story of the fastest growing company in my portfolio, Voyantis.ai, who isn't being asked by their board to improve unit economics.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20Growth: Revolut's Chief Growth Officer on The Growth Playbook Revolut Used to Scale to $2.2BN in Revenue | How Revolut Launch and Grow Products | Why the Best PMs Don't Need A/B Tests & Why CAC is a BS Metric with Antoine Le Nel

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voyantis is the first and only company i've seen that has found the way for you to crack this nut by not only leveraging your first party data to predict customers lifetime value but truly coupling these predictions with a prescriptive layer integrating with and influencing each and every step of your customers growth journey voyantis helps you acquire the right customers in google and meter

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20Growth: Revolut's Chief Growth Officer on The Growth Playbook Revolut Used to Scale to $2.2BN in Revenue | How Revolut Launch and Grow Products | Why the Best PMs Don't Need A/B Tests & Why CAC is a BS Metric with Antoine Le Nel

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allocate incentives to the right customers via your salesforce and braze and trigger the right upsell option at the right time for each of your customers oh and the best part voyantis are not only increasing roi by 20 to 40 percent and improving the quality of your customers their solution has already improved unit economics for leading companies such as miro rappy moneyline and many many more so if you want to improve your ltv cac ratio before your next board meeting

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20Growth: Revolut's Chief Growth Officer on The Growth Playbook Revolut Used to Scale to $2.2BN in Revenue | How Revolut Launch and Grow Products | Why the Best PMs Don't Need A/B Tests & Why CAC is a BS Metric with Antoine Le Nel

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start by heading over to voyantis.ai slash 20VC, that's V-O-Y-N-T-I-S dot A-I slash 20VC, to get a free value assessment.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20Growth: Revolut's Chief Growth Officer on The Growth Playbook Revolut Used to Scale to $2.2BN in Revenue | How Revolut Launch and Grow Products | Why the Best PMs Don't Need A/B Tests & Why CAC is a BS Metric with Antoine Le Nel

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This is 20 Growth with me, Harry Stebbings. Now, 20 Growth is a monthly show where we sit down with the best growth leaders on the planet to reveal their tips, tactics, and strategies. And today, we bring you one of the best growth leaders from one of the fastest growing companies, Antoine Lanel, Chief Growth and Marketing Officer at Revolut, one of the fastest growing fintechs on the planet.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20Growth: Revolut's Chief Growth Officer on The Growth Playbook Revolut Used to Scale to $2.2BN in Revenue | How Revolut Launch and Grow Products | Why the Best PMs Don't Need A/B Tests & Why CAC is a BS Metric with Antoine Le Nel

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I so hope you enjoyed it. You can find the full episode on YouTube by searching for 20VC. But before we leave you today, many founders I've talked to touch on this idea of if you want to go fast, go alone. Want to go far? Then go together. Canva helps your team go far together with their collaboration tools.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20Growth: Revolut's Chief Growth Officer on The Growth Playbook Revolut Used to Scale to $2.2BN in Revenue | How Revolut Launch and Grow Products | Why the Best PMs Don't Need A/B Tests & Why CAC is a BS Metric with Antoine Le Nel

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Your team can work together in real time on the same presentation, dock, whiteboard, and more with name-labeled cursors. Tag teammates in comments and assign tasks. Canva supercharges teamwork and simplifies workflows. With Canva, you can go far together and fast thanks to Canva's AI tools. Generate text and slides in seconds. It's a serious time saver.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20Growth: Revolut's Chief Growth Officer on The Growth Playbook Revolut Used to Scale to $2.2BN in Revenue | How Revolut Launch and Grow Products | Why the Best PMs Don't Need A/B Tests & Why CAC is a BS Metric with Antoine Le Nel

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And because AI is built right into Canva, your team can stay on task with no app switching. You can also save costs by aggregating your visual communication tools with Canva. Save costs, save time, make workflow. Start designing today at canva.com. designed for work. And talking about growth, let's dive into how Voyantis is transforming customer acquisition.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20Growth: Revolut's Chief Growth Officer on The Growth Playbook Revolut Used to Scale to $2.2BN in Revenue | How Revolut Launch and Grow Products | Why the Best PMs Don't Need A/B Tests & Why CAC is a BS Metric with Antoine Le Nel

3321.681

As this is my growth podcast, I'm so excited to share with you the story of the fastest growing company in my portfolio, Voyantis.ai, who isn't being asked by their board to improve unit economics

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20Growth: Revolut's Chief Growth Officer on The Growth Playbook Revolut Used to Scale to $2.2BN in Revenue | How Revolut Launch and Grow Products | Why the Best PMs Don't Need A/B Tests & Why CAC is a BS Metric with Antoine Le Nel

3333.41

voyantis is the first and only company i've seen that has found the way for you to crack this nut by not only leveraging your first party data to predict customers lifetime value but truly coupling these predictions with a prescriptive layer integrating with and influencing each and every step of your customers growth journey voyantis helps you acquire the right customers in google and meter

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20Growth: Revolut's Chief Growth Officer on The Growth Playbook Revolut Used to Scale to $2.2BN in Revenue | How Revolut Launch and Grow Products | Why the Best PMs Don't Need A/B Tests & Why CAC is a BS Metric with Antoine Le Nel

3355.936

allocate incentives to the right customers via your salesforce and braze and trigger the right upsell option at the right time for each of your customers oh and the best part voyantis are not only increasing roi by 20 to 40 percent and improving the quality of your customers their solution has already improved unit economics for leading companies such as miro rappy moneyline and many many more so if you want to improve your ltv cac ratio before your next board meeting

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20Growth: Revolut's Chief Growth Officer on The Growth Playbook Revolut Used to Scale to $2.2BN in Revenue | How Revolut Launch and Grow Products | Why the Best PMs Don't Need A/B Tests & Why CAC is a BS Metric with Antoine Le Nel

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start by heading over to voyantis.ai slash 20VC. That's V-O-Y-N-T-I-S dot A-I slash 20VC to get a free value assessment. As always, I so appreciate all your support and stay tuned for an incredible episode this coming Monday with one of the greats of our vintage of venture investors, Mamoun Hamid at Kleiner Perkins.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20Growth: Revolut's Chief Growth Officer on The Growth Playbook Revolut Used to Scale to $2.2BN in Revenue | How Revolut Launch and Grow Products | Why the Best PMs Don't Need A/B Tests & Why CAC is a BS Metric with Antoine Le Nel

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Prior to Revolut, Antoine spent an incredible seven years at King, the makers of Candy Crush, overseeing the continuous expansion of of the world's most famous mobile game where he was VP of growth. But before we dive in today, when I spoke to Canva co-founder Cliff Obrecht on the podcast last year, he touched on how visual content is fast becoming the fuel that's driving the modern workplace.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20Growth: Revolut's Chief Growth Officer on The Growth Playbook Revolut Used to Scale to $2.2BN in Revenue | How Revolut Launch and Grow Products | Why the Best PMs Don't Need A/B Tests & Why CAC is a BS Metric with Antoine Le Nel

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Your team needs to create an engaging visual pitch deck to sell in an idea. A product launch needs an inspiring video to excite investors and customers. Projects gather steam with visual whiteboards. That's where Canva can help. It's a game changer for visual communication at work.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20Growth: Revolut's Chief Growth Officer on The Growth Playbook Revolut Used to Scale to $2.2BN in Revenue | How Revolut Launch and Grow Products | Why the Best PMs Don't Need A/B Tests & Why CAC is a BS Metric with Antoine Le Nel

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Canva turns your team into master visual communicators so they can get their point across with visual impact inside and outside your business with no design experience needed. With Canva, any team member and any company, whether you're a startup or a global organization, can design compelling on-brand visual content quickly and easily. That's why 90% of the Fortune 500 use Canva.

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20Product: What Facebook, Monzo and Deliveroo Do and Do Not Do To Build Great Products | How to Structure Product Teams For Success | Is Simple Always Better in Product and The Art vs Science of Product Design with Mike Hudack

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The challenge is there's always a lot of voices in a room that say we should keep going, that say we should stop. You know, I had Gustav from Spotify on the show, and he was like, you know, talk is cheap, Harry, so we should do more of it. I'm always perturbed by that almost because I don't see how that's right, but Gustav is brilliant. Sure. How do you think about discussion within teams?

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20Product: What Facebook, Monzo and Deliveroo Do and Do Not Do To Build Great Products | How to Structure Product Teams For Success | Is Simple Always Better in Product and The Art vs Science of Product Design with Mike Hudack

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While building a basic CSV importer may seem simple, product teams typically spend over three to six months building and rebuilding their CSV import experiences. Why? Customer files are full of unexpected formats for dates, numbers, and addresses, and your first pass at building an importer never has all the edge cases handled.

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20Product: What Facebook, Monzo and Deliveroo Do and Do Not Do To Build Great Products | How to Structure Product Teams For Success | Is Simple Always Better in Product and The Art vs Science of Product Design with Mike Hudack

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But now you're itching at the core of, like, the true question in product, which is art or science. And by kind of leading with data... you're potentially missing out on that. I have no data to support this for you, but I just feel like filters in Snap would be hugely popular.

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20Product: What Facebook, Monzo and Deliveroo Do and Do Not Do To Build Great Products | How to Structure Product Teams For Success | Is Simple Always Better in Product and The Art vs Science of Product Design with Mike Hudack

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I'm bringing in like a grenade here. Does that change in a world of AI where maybe the screen is no longer the primary interface?

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20Product: What Facebook, Monzo and Deliveroo Do and Do Not Do To Build Great Products | How to Structure Product Teams For Success | Is Simple Always Better in Product and The Art vs Science of Product Design with Mike Hudack

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Failed imports lead to unhappy customers and endless emails and tickets for your support and engineering teams. Enter OneSchema with the largest library of pre-built validations and intelligent transforms. OneSchema helps you launch a guided CSV import experience in just 30 minutes.

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20Product: What Facebook, Monzo and Deliveroo Do and Do Not Do To Build Great Products | How to Structure Product Teams For Success | Is Simple Always Better in Product and The Art vs Science of Product Design with Mike Hudack

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But, you know, part of our way rather do referral codes or discounts on new accounts, whatever it is, than spending on Facebook every day, every day.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20Product: What Facebook, Monzo and Deliveroo Do and Do Not Do To Build Great Products | How to Structure Product Teams For Success | Is Simple Always Better in Product and The Art vs Science of Product Design with Mike Hudack

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But I think that's the biggest problem that I actually see a lot of our investments make, which is their ICP is not tight enough. And so it's too broad. The product marketing then doesn't hit because it's not concise enough and it doesn't really resonate with a small enough target market. And then it kind of just goes in the...

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20Product: What Facebook, Monzo and Deliveroo Do and Do Not Do To Build Great Products | How to Structure Product Teams For Success | Is Simple Always Better in Product and The Art vs Science of Product Design with Mike Hudack

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Get your customers to the value of your product in minutes and say goodbye to frustrating messages like import error online 53 with over 4x faster performance compared with alternatives. It's clear why OneSchema is the choice for top startups like Ramp, Scale.ai and Pave to streamline their CSV import process. Importing clean customer data into your product is easier than ever.

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20Product: What Facebook, Monzo and Deliveroo Do and Do Not Do To Build Great Products | How to Structure Product Teams For Success | Is Simple Always Better in Product and The Art vs Science of Product Design with Mike Hudack

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If you think about like money transfer... Say, for example, you're going to get a lot better conversion and a lot better reviews, recommendations, word of mouth if you have it heavily verticalised. What do you mean by that? Focus on moving money from the Philippines to the US, expats from 30 to 40 who have high income jobs and want to shift large amounts of money back.

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20Product: What Facebook, Monzo and Deliveroo Do and Do Not Do To Build Great Products | How to Structure Product Teams For Success | Is Simple Always Better in Product and The Art vs Science of Product Design with Mike Hudack

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That product marketing is going to convert way better. You're going to get virality in communities. Sure, sure, sure.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20Product: What Facebook, Monzo and Deliveroo Do and Do Not Do To Build Great Products | How to Structure Product Teams For Success | Is Simple Always Better in Product and The Art vs Science of Product Design with Mike Hudack

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The thing that I find harder, with total respect, is actually just product marketing and differentiation, where there's a lot of products which are better, different, but the markets are so crowded that actually Revolut actually sell it pretty well, TransferWise sell it pretty well, and there's 15 other players that sell it pretty well. And so even if you are better, you can't sell it better.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20Product: What Facebook, Monzo and Deliveroo Do and Do Not Do To Build Great Products | How to Structure Product Teams For Success | Is Simple Always Better in Product and The Art vs Science of Product Design with Mike Hudack

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Speaking of serving communities incredibly well, delivery. Serves incredible communities with immense products. I obviously consume delivery every day, hence my complete inability to cook. But you were CPO there for two and a half years. It's a fascinating role change really from Facebook to delivery CPO in that respect. How did your time at delivery impact your product thinking?

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20Product: What Facebook, Monzo and Deliveroo Do and Do Not Do To Build Great Products | How to Structure Product Teams For Success | Is Simple Always Better in Product and The Art vs Science of Product Design with Mike Hudack

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Learn more by visiting oneschema.com slash 20. And finally, we need to talk about Pendo. A really simple way to describe Pendo's value is to simply say, get your users to do what you want them to do. What is Pendo? The only all-in-one product experience platform for any type of application. What are the features that make Pendo so awesome? Pendo's differentiation is in its platform.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20Product: What Facebook, Monzo and Deliveroo Do and Do Not Do To Build Great Products | How to Structure Product Teams For Success | Is Simple Always Better in Product and The Art vs Science of Product Design with Mike Hudack

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How do you determine the products that you build? Because there's so many that you could build. You could build like driver insights products, you could build driver messaging, driver platform products.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20Product: What Facebook, Monzo and Deliveroo Do and Do Not Do To Build Great Products | How to Structure Product Teams For Success | Is Simple Always Better in Product and The Art vs Science of Product Design with Mike Hudack

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Oh, yeah, of course. You did? Yeah, yeah. A lot of people have a late delivery now, and it's like, well, I'm still going to get back to delivery tomorrow.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20Product: What Facebook, Monzo and Deliveroo Do and Do Not Do To Build Great Products | How to Structure Product Teams For Success | Is Simple Always Better in Product and The Art vs Science of Product Design with Mike Hudack

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Every capability from analytics to in-app guidance to session replay, mobile feedback management and roadmapping are all purpose-built to work together. What is the social validity? 10,000 companies use Pendo and we also manage Mind the Product, the world's largest community of product management professionals. Where do we want to drive people?

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20Product: What Facebook, Monzo and Deliveroo Do and Do Not Do To Build Great Products | How to Structure Product Teams For Success | Is Simple Always Better in Product and The Art vs Science of Product Design with Mike Hudack

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Give it a try and visit pendo.io slash 20product-podcast to learn how your team can use Pendo to start building better digital experiences. There you can also check out Pendo's lineup of free certification courses, 12 hours of in-depth training for your product management teams on topics from AI to product analytics to product-led growth. You have now arrived at your destination.

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20Product: What Facebook, Monzo and Deliveroo Do and Do Not Do To Build Great Products | How to Structure Product Teams For Success | Is Simple Always Better in Product and The Art vs Science of Product Design with Mike Hudack

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I think it's also heavily subjective now in terms of the food quality reducing to your point. It's like, I only actually ever get sashimi and broccoli. Okay. That doesn't degrade it. Sashimi is cold already. Sure. Broccoli warm is fine versus hot. Yeah. So it doesn't actually matter, but Nando's is the same. Like the chicken, it's not like a burger where it's the same.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20Product: What Facebook, Monzo and Deliveroo Do and Do Not Do To Build Great Products | How to Structure Product Teams For Success | Is Simple Always Better in Product and The Art vs Science of Product Design with Mike Hudack

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Where he says too many options will make an enemy of us all. For sure. And consumers are not always rational and you can give them that time and they'll go, that wasn't a great service because it took so long and fuck them. Yeah. So it's just an interesting question of like how much options is enough.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20Product: What Facebook, Monzo and Deliveroo Do and Do Not Do To Build Great Products | How to Structure Product Teams For Success | Is Simple Always Better in Product and The Art vs Science of Product Design with Mike Hudack

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When did you look at data, come to a conclusion, and that conclusion was really wrong? Like from the data?

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20Product: What Facebook, Monzo and Deliveroo Do and Do Not Do To Build Great Products | How to Structure Product Teams For Success | Is Simple Always Better in Product and The Art vs Science of Product Design with Mike Hudack

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And then it is so rooted in context, which is that you can have the same data and two incredibly different teams, and the outcomes will be wildly different.

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20Product: What Facebook, Monzo and Deliveroo Do and Do Not Do To Build Great Products | How to Structure Product Teams For Success | Is Simple Always Better in Product and The Art vs Science of Product Design with Mike Hudack

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Mike, I am so excited for this, my friend. I've wanted to do this for a long time. We met a couple of years ago and I've wanted to make it happen since then. So thank you so much for joining me today. Thank you for having me. I mean, this is awesome. I'm really glad to do it. This is so great.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20Product: What Facebook, Monzo and Deliveroo Do and Do Not Do To Build Great Products | How to Structure Product Teams For Success | Is Simple Always Better in Product and The Art vs Science of Product Design with Mike Hudack

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Is there anything that you learned from, you very rightly did, I think, described as like a knife fight in terms of Uber Eats versus delivery. Is there anything that you learned from that time on competition and how to approach competition?

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20Product: What Facebook, Monzo and Deliveroo Do and Do Not Do To Build Great Products | How to Structure Product Teams For Success | Is Simple Always Better in Product and The Art vs Science of Product Design with Mike Hudack

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I'm so glad you said that. The amount of companies I meet that are like SAP are shit for these reasons and they're shit. I'm like, they're not shit. Yeah. There's a reason they're worth hundreds of billions of dollars. For sure. For sure. They're incredible. With late delivery, you get a lot of feedback very quickly. There's a lot of consumers that use it daily.

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20Product: What Facebook, Monzo and Deliveroo Do and Do Not Do To Build Great Products | How to Structure Product Teams For Success | Is Simple Always Better in Product and The Art vs Science of Product Design with Mike Hudack

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But like when you see like the ability to message drivers, the ability to know timing, the ability to add notes to orders, all those little things which actually people can love.

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20Product: What Facebook, Monzo and Deliveroo Do and Do Not Do To Build Great Products | How to Structure Product Teams For Success | Is Simple Always Better in Product and The Art vs Science of Product Design with Mike Hudack

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Now, I think there is a moment when someone falls in love with product and the design and the simplicity of it. When did you fall in love with product, Mike?

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20Product: What Facebook, Monzo and Deliveroo Do and Do Not Do To Build Great Products | How to Structure Product Teams For Success | Is Simple Always Better in Product and The Art vs Science of Product Design with Mike Hudack

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When you think about the move to Monzo before we touch on Sling, what product lessons from Deliveroo were transferable and what weren't?

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20Product: What Facebook, Monzo and Deliveroo Do and Do Not Do To Build Great Products | How to Structure Product Teams For Success | Is Simple Always Better in Product and The Art vs Science of Product Design with Mike Hudack

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The question I have is like, you know, at Monzo, you are a bank. That really impacts your ability to ship. For sure. How you approach products. How did being a regulated bank impact your approach to product?

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20Product: What Facebook, Monzo and Deliveroo Do and Do Not Do To Build Great Products | How to Structure Product Teams For Success | Is Simple Always Better in Product and The Art vs Science of Product Design with Mike Hudack

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What would you most like to have done but were prohibited because of regulation banking license?

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20Product: What Facebook, Monzo and Deliveroo Do and Do Not Do To Build Great Products | How to Structure Product Teams For Success | Is Simple Always Better in Product and The Art vs Science of Product Design with Mike Hudack

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Do you think the US was the right move? I mean, both Revolut and Monzo did it, both with limited success.

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20Product: What Facebook, Monzo and Deliveroo Do and Do Not Do To Build Great Products | How to Structure Product Teams For Success | Is Simple Always Better in Product and The Art vs Science of Product Design with Mike Hudack

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Okay, so you would have maybe gone more global earlier. You had Revolut who were innovating on product incredibly fast with everything from access to airline lounges, to crypto products, to investing products, to savings products. How do you sit and think as a product team when you see your competitors shipping respectfully at a much faster pace?

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20Product: What Facebook, Monzo and Deliveroo Do and Do Not Do To Build Great Products | How to Structure Product Teams For Success | Is Simple Always Better in Product and The Art vs Science of Product Design with Mike Hudack

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Like it's just what I always wanted to do. We were talking just beforehand on this. How do you feel about founder mode? I know we're diving straight in, but it's dominated the airwaves. Yeah. And I'm just intrigued because you have this unique perspective having spent ten years plus at some of the best companies. Yeah. And then also having founded several companies.

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20Product: What Facebook, Monzo and Deliveroo Do and Do Not Do To Build Great Products | How to Structure Product Teams For Success | Is Simple Always Better in Product and The Art vs Science of Product Design with Mike Hudack

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This is 20 Product with me, Harry Stebbings. Now, 20 Product is the monthly show where we sit down with the best product leaders in the world to unpack how they approach building category-defining products. Our guest today, Mike Hudak, is a total OG in the product world.

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20Product: What Facebook, Monzo and Deliveroo Do and Do Not Do To Build Great Products | How to Structure Product Teams For Success | Is Simple Always Better in Product and The Art vs Science of Product Design with Mike Hudack

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Does that not go against every concept of positive visualization? I see the success. I make it happen.

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20Product: What Facebook, Monzo and Deliveroo Do and Do Not Do To Build Great Products | How to Structure Product Teams For Success | Is Simple Always Better in Product and The Art vs Science of Product Design with Mike Hudack

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Does that not go against the inspiring leader? When you think about being the Jordan Belfort, Wolf of Wall Street, standing at the front. And it's like, I want my teams to be G'd up going into a product launch, being like, expect this to fail and then don't be disheartened.

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20Product: What Facebook, Monzo and Deliveroo Do and Do Not Do To Build Great Products | How to Structure Product Teams For Success | Is Simple Always Better in Product and The Art vs Science of Product Design with Mike Hudack

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Can you take me to a time when you've had really shit morale in a product team? Oh my God, so many times.

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20Product: What Facebook, Monzo and Deliveroo Do and Do Not Do To Build Great Products | How to Structure Product Teams For Success | Is Simple Always Better in Product and The Art vs Science of Product Design with Mike Hudack

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I agree. I actually think that people demonize ads too much, where if done well, they're a discovery mechanism for things that I buy a lot of gym kit that is actually suggested to me. And I'm like, great, I wouldn't have found this brand otherwise.

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20Product: What Facebook, Monzo and Deliveroo Do and Do Not Do To Build Great Products | How to Structure Product Teams For Success | Is Simple Always Better in Product and The Art vs Science of Product Design with Mike Hudack

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Final one, but I spoke to your co-founder beforehand, and he said that one of your greatest skills is your ability to balance family and incredible execution as a founder. I'm pre-family, but it's something that I would like over time, and it makes me very nervous to think about being able to maintain the same level of quality execution whilst also being a great father.

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20Product: What Facebook, Monzo and Deliveroo Do and Do Not Do To Build Great Products | How to Structure Product Teams For Success | Is Simple Always Better in Product and The Art vs Science of Product Design with Mike Hudack

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What advice would you have for me, specifically as possible, on how to do both really well?

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20Product: What Facebook, Monzo and Deliveroo Do and Do Not Do To Build Great Products | How to Structure Product Teams For Success | Is Simple Always Better in Product and The Art vs Science of Product Design with Mike Hudack

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But I do think in zero to one, brute force is really important. I am a believer in Elon Musk. When I started, I slept in the office. I'm not saying you don't have a girlfriend, but...

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20Product: What Facebook, Monzo and Deliveroo Do and Do Not Do To Build Great Products | How to Structure Product Teams For Success | Is Simple Always Better in Product and The Art vs Science of Product Design with Mike Hudack

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Mike, listen, I could talk to you all day. I want to do a quick fire. So I say a short statement. You give me your immediate thoughts. Does that sound okay? Sure. Okay. So tell me about a time when you most vociferously disagreed with a manager.

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20Product: What Facebook, Monzo and Deliveroo Do and Do Not Do To Build Great Products | How to Structure Product Teams For Success | Is Simple Always Better in Product and The Art vs Science of Product Design with Mike Hudack

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We'll never know. Okay. Angel Investing. What's your biggest advice to an operator at Angel Investing today?

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20Product: What Facebook, Monzo and Deliveroo Do and Do Not Do To Build Great Products | How to Structure Product Teams For Success | Is Simple Always Better in Product and The Art vs Science of Product Design with Mike Hudack

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What are the biggest mistakes that founders make when building out their product team?

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20Product: What Facebook, Monzo and Deliveroo Do and Do Not Do To Build Great Products | How to Structure Product Teams For Success | Is Simple Always Better in Product and The Art vs Science of Product Design with Mike Hudack

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I diluted everyone 99% because I'm operating in founder mode. Yeah, totally. I want to start on Facebook, Mike. You spent four and a half years there, two and a half years leading as product team. But when you look back on that time, it is an incredible experience to have. Yeah. What are some of your biggest takeaways?

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20Product: What Facebook, Monzo and Deliveroo Do and Do Not Do To Build Great Products | How to Structure Product Teams For Success | Is Simple Always Better in Product and The Art vs Science of Product Design with Mike Hudack

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Everybody has a different style. You can call in a CPO before they start their first day at their new gig. What advice do you give them?

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20Product: What Facebook, Monzo and Deliveroo Do and Do Not Do To Build Great Products | How to Structure Product Teams For Success | Is Simple Always Better in Product and The Art vs Science of Product Design with Mike Hudack

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What two to three trays or one to two trays are less obvious but crucial in great PMs?

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20Product: What Facebook, Monzo and Deliveroo Do and Do Not Do To Build Great Products | How to Structure Product Teams For Success | Is Simple Always Better in Product and The Art vs Science of Product Design with Mike Hudack

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And, you know, it's going to be great. Mike, I've absolutely loved this. I love the meandering. I'm glad that I told you beforehand that we didn't really stick to schedule. But you've been such a fantastic guest. So thank you so much for doing this. Thank you. Yeah, pleasure. Oh my god, I so much prefer doing shows in person.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20Product: What Facebook, Monzo and Deliveroo Do and Do Not Do To Build Great Products | How to Structure Product Teams For Success | Is Simple Always Better in Product and The Art vs Science of Product Design with Mike Hudack

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If you want to watch that full interview you can on YouTube by searching for 20VC, that's two zero VC. It really is a fun one to watch in person, I have to say. But before we leave you today, ever wondered what your customers actually do?

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20Product: What Facebook, Monzo and Deliveroo Do and Do Not Do To Build Great Products | How to Structure Product Teams For Success | Is Simple Always Better in Product and The Art vs Science of Product Design with Mike Hudack

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The team over at Thay Do have been living it for decades, and they have recently built a product that is frankly enabling the world's biggest businesses to literally know what they do. Harnessing journey mining with AI, you can turn unstructured data into structured customer journeys in minutes, saving weeks of work and months of analysis.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20Product: What Facebook, Monzo and Deliveroo Do and Do Not Do To Build Great Products | How to Structure Product Teams For Success | Is Simple Always Better in Product and The Art vs Science of Product Design with Mike Hudack

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TheyDo journey management platform is already helping over 100 leading businesses, including Ford, Johnson & Johnson, Royal London and Home Depot, to know what they do. Don't waste another step. Check out theydo.com. But before we continue, let me tell you about One Schema. One Schema is the embeddable CSV importer that will save your team months of development time.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20Product: What Facebook, Monzo and Deliveroo Do and Do Not Do To Build Great Products | How to Structure Product Teams For Success | Is Simple Always Better in Product and The Art vs Science of Product Design with Mike Hudack

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While building a basic CSV importer may seem simple, product teams typically spend over three to six months building and rebuilding their CSV import experiences. Why? Customer files are full of unexpected formats for dates, numbers, and addresses, and your first pass at building an importer never has all the edge cases handled.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20Product: What Facebook, Monzo and Deliveroo Do and Do Not Do To Build Great Products | How to Structure Product Teams For Success | Is Simple Always Better in Product and The Art vs Science of Product Design with Mike Hudack

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Failed imports lead to unhappy customers and endless emails and tickets for your support and engineering teams. Enter OneSchema with the largest library of pre-built validations and intelligent transforms. OneSchema helps you launch a guided CSV import experience in just 30 minutes.

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20Product: What Facebook, Monzo and Deliveroo Do and Do Not Do To Build Great Products | How to Structure Product Teams For Success | Is Simple Always Better in Product and The Art vs Science of Product Design with Mike Hudack

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Get your customers to the value of your product in minutes and say goodbye to frustrating messages like import error online 53 with over 4x faster performance compared with alternatives. It's clear why OneSchema is the choice for top startups like Ramp, Scale AI and Pave to streamline their CSV import process. Importing clean customer data into your product is easier than ever.

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20Product: What Facebook, Monzo and Deliveroo Do and Do Not Do To Build Great Products | How to Structure Product Teams For Success | Is Simple Always Better in Product and The Art vs Science of Product Design with Mike Hudack

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Learn more by visiting oneschema.com slash 20. And finally, we need to talk about Pendo. A really simple way to describe Pendo's value is to simply say, get your users to do what you want them to do. What is Pendo? The only all in one product experience platform for any type of application. What are the features that make Pendo so awesome? Pendo's differentiation is in its platform.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20Product: What Facebook, Monzo and Deliveroo Do and Do Not Do To Build Great Products | How to Structure Product Teams For Success | Is Simple Always Better in Product and The Art vs Science of Product Design with Mike Hudack

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Every capability from analytics to in-app guidance to session replay, mobile feedback management and roadmapping are all purpose-built to work together. What is the social validity? 10,000 companies use Pendo and we also manage Mind the Product, the world's largest community of product management professionals. Where do we want to drive people?

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20Product: What Facebook, Monzo and Deliveroo Do and Do Not Do To Build Great Products | How to Structure Product Teams For Success | Is Simple Always Better in Product and The Art vs Science of Product Design with Mike Hudack

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Give it a try and visit pendo.io slash 20product-podcast to learn how your team can use Pendo to start building better digital experiences. There you can also check out Pendo's lineup of free certification courses, 12 hours of in-depth training for your product management teams on topics from AI to product analytics to product-led growth.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20Product: What Facebook, Monzo and Deliveroo Do and Do Not Do To Build Great Products | How to Structure Product Teams For Success | Is Simple Always Better in Product and The Art vs Science of Product Design with Mike Hudack

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As always, I so appreciate all your support and stay tuned for an incredible episode coming this Monday with Shardul Shah, General Partner at Index Ventures.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20Product: What Facebook, Monzo and Deliveroo Do and Do Not Do To Build Great Products | How to Structure Product Teams For Success | Is Simple Always Better in Product and The Art vs Science of Product Design with Mike Hudack

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In the past, he was at Facebook, where he led ads product and sharing product, and then he went on to become CPO and CTO at Deliveroo. before joining Monzo as their CPO. Today, he's the co-founder of Sling, simplifying the way the world connects financially, and they have backing from some of the best, including USV and Ribbit. But before we dive in, ever wondered what your customers actually do?

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20Product: What Facebook, Monzo and Deliveroo Do and Do Not Do To Build Great Products | How to Structure Product Teams For Success | Is Simple Always Better in Product and The Art vs Science of Product Design with Mike Hudack

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There's so many things I want to unpack there. You said about kind of simplifying insights page in particular and the importance of that. Is simplifying product always better?

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20Product: What Facebook, Monzo and Deliveroo Do and Do Not Do To Build Great Products | How to Structure Product Teams For Success | Is Simple Always Better in Product and The Art vs Science of Product Design with Mike Hudack

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I do have to ask, you mentioned also the reorging of the different teams. Yeah. What are some big lessons to you in the right way to structure those teams? Could be size, could be roles, could be mentality. Any big lessons on the right way to structure those teams?

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20Product: What Facebook, Monzo and Deliveroo Do and Do Not Do To Build Great Products | How to Structure Product Teams For Success | Is Simple Always Better in Product and The Art vs Science of Product Design with Mike Hudack

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The team over at Thay Do have been living it for decades, and they have recently built a product that is frankly enabling the world's biggest businesses to literally know what they do. Harnessing journey mining with AI, you can turn unstructured data into structured customer journeys in minutes, saving weeks of work and months of analysis.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20Product: What Facebook, Monzo and Deliveroo Do and Do Not Do To Build Great Products | How to Structure Product Teams For Success | Is Simple Always Better in Product and The Art vs Science of Product Design with Mike Hudack

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That kind of thing. I'm just thinking of actually Des Trainor now, who talks about the length to kind of the start line, so to speak. And he, like you, is kind of great product line, but also an angel investor. And he likes a long road to the start line in terms of product, whereby it's actually quite difficult to get V1 out the door because there is so much to do.

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20Product: What Facebook, Monzo and Deliveroo Do and Do Not Do To Build Great Products | How to Structure Product Teams For Success | Is Simple Always Better in Product and The Art vs Science of Product Design with Mike Hudack

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MARK BLYTH I'm just intrigued for you. How do you think about that long road to the start line versus get a quick V1 out, test, see?

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20Product: What Facebook, Monzo and Deliveroo Do and Do Not Do To Build Great Products | How to Structure Product Teams For Success | Is Simple Always Better in Product and The Art vs Science of Product Design with Mike Hudack

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How do you know when that is? You have a lot of angel investments. You've got a great angel portfolio. You know when it's just not hitting? How do you tell them, guys or girls, this is just not working?

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20Product: What Facebook, Monzo and Deliveroo Do and Do Not Do To Build Great Products | How to Structure Product Teams For Success | Is Simple Always Better in Product and The Art vs Science of Product Design with Mike Hudack

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TheyDo journey management platform is already helping over 100 leading businesses, including Ford, Johnson & Johnson, Royal London and Home Depot, to know what they do. Don't waste another step. Check out theydo.com. But before we continue, let me tell you about One Schema. One Schema is the embeddable CSV importer that will save your team months of development time.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20Product: What Facebook, Monzo and Deliveroo Do and Do Not Do To Build Great Products | How to Structure Product Teams For Success | Is Simple Always Better in Product and The Art vs Science of Product Design with Mike Hudack

881.099

On the flip side of the brilliance of the insights page and that working incredibly well, we learn a lot from mistakes. because what did you learn from that?

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20Product: What Facebook, Monzo and Deliveroo Do and Do Not Do To Build Great Products | How to Structure Product Teams For Success | Is Simple Always Better in Product and The Art vs Science of Product Design with Mike Hudack

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It's a good addition and people like it, but it's not cool. If you took it away, wouldn't terribly distract from the user experience.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20Product: What Facebook, Monzo and Deliveroo Do and Do Not Do To Build Great Products | How to Structure Product Teams For Success | Is Simple Always Better in Product and The Art vs Science of Product Design with Mike Hudack

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So the takeaway for you from audience insights is it was a nice to have and you shouldn't have done it at all. I wouldn't do it again.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Why Most AI Investments Will Do Worse than the S&P 500 | Why Early Stage VC is F******* | The Danger of Kamala Harris and Why Trump and Vance are Best | Freedom of Speech, Censorship and Government Control with Eoghan McCabe @ Intercom

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How do you feel about the photographer who's going to have their spend cut in half because we can do AI backgrounds so much easier. We can reduce spend on a photo. I literally just came from a photo shoot and I was like, dude, this is going to be mostly AI in three years. And he was like, I know.

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20VC: Why Most AI Investments Will Do Worse than the S&P 500 | Why Early Stage VC is F******* | The Danger of Kamala Harris and Why Trump and Vance are Best | Freedom of Speech, Censorship and Government Control with Eoghan McCabe @ Intercom

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Something I find really challenging, Owen, is like, you know, you look at the latest YC batch, all the companies are relatively interesting AI consumer application-led companies in large part. And actually, when you dig deeper, a lot of them is kind of 11 labs tagged to an open AI model. And it's really just bringing together different foundation model companies.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Why Most AI Investments Will Do Worse than the S&P 500 | Why Early Stage VC is F******* | The Danger of Kamala Harris and Why Trump and Vance are Best | Freedom of Speech, Censorship and Government Control with Eoghan McCabe @ Intercom

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And the core thing comes back to, well, there's not really that much defensibility. It's just kind of architecture stuck together. How do you feel about defensibility in startups? I know you've invested too.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Why Most AI Investments Will Do Worse than the S&P 500 | Why Early Stage VC is F******* | The Danger of Kamala Harris and Why Trump and Vance are Best | Freedom of Speech, Censorship and Government Control with Eoghan McCabe @ Intercom

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Investments in private stock are risky. Only accredited investors may buy through Hive. And just like Hive transforms liquidity, Tegas transforms how we gather insights for investing. When I invest in software today, I think software is valuable when it saves time and makes something easier.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Why Most AI Investments Will Do Worse than the S&P 500 | Why Early Stage VC is F******* | The Danger of Kamala Harris and Why Trump and Vance are Best | Freedom of Speech, Censorship and Government Control with Eoghan McCabe @ Intercom

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Can I ask you, if we think about Silicon Valley Central casting, PG's essay on founder mode went incredibly viral, obviously, in the last month. How did you feel and think about it when you read it?

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20VC: Why Most AI Investments Will Do Worse than the S&P 500 | Why Early Stage VC is F******* | The Danger of Kamala Harris and Why Trump and Vance are Best | Freedom of Speech, Censorship and Government Control with Eoghan McCabe @ Intercom

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I always hear Gurley and Brad at Altimeter and they're like, more companies need to go public when they're in this range. Yeah, the valuation will take a hit.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Why Most AI Investments Will Do Worse than the S&P 500 | Why Early Stage VC is F******* | The Danger of Kamala Harris and Why Trump and Vance are Best | Freedom of Speech, Censorship and Government Control with Eoghan McCabe @ Intercom

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And you don't think it would be better for you in terms of rigor, accountability, all the reasons that they say?

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20VC: Why Most AI Investments Will Do Worse than the S&P 500 | Why Early Stage VC is F******* | The Danger of Kamala Harris and Why Trump and Vance are Best | Freedom of Speech, Censorship and Government Control with Eoghan McCabe @ Intercom

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But when it enables the user to do something they simply could not do without it, then it's insanely powerful and valuable. That's the case with Tegas. Tegas, I literally could not live without. When I'm investing in a company, Tegas lets me see the most incredible reference calls with experts in a space who work at competitive companies or incumbents.

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20VC: Why Most AI Investments Will Do Worse than the S&P 500 | Why Early Stage VC is F******* | The Danger of Kamala Harris and Why Trump and Vance are Best | Freedom of Speech, Censorship and Government Control with Eoghan McCabe @ Intercom

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I am an investor, though. We need liquidity. And M&A, what, you're going to do a Dylan and go through 18 months of hell and then get blocked? No, you're probably going to do a whiz and just say no thanks at the start. And then IPOs, I'm with you on everything you just said. So what happens then? We just have this extended private window?

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Why Most AI Investments Will Do Worse than the S&P 500 | Why Early Stage VC is F******* | The Danger of Kamala Harris and Why Trump and Vance are Best | Freedom of Speech, Censorship and Government Control with Eoghan McCabe @ Intercom

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You mentioned the revenue there and the seismic shifts that you've made to cause the changes. Why did revenue plateau, growth plateau? What happened?

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Why Most AI Investments Will Do Worse than the S&P 500 | Why Early Stage VC is F******* | The Danger of Kamala Harris and Why Trump and Vance are Best | Freedom of Speech, Censorship and Government Control with Eoghan McCabe @ Intercom

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These calls and data provide the most incredible insight that really informs our opinions and investment decisions. I can then share snippets from calls with team members. This is a tool that will change how you work And honestly, you cannot imagine life without it once you've experienced how powerful it is. You can tell how much I love Tegus. So simply head over to Tegus.com.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Why Most AI Investments Will Do Worse than the S&P 500 | Why Early Stage VC is F******* | The Danger of Kamala Harris and Why Trump and Vance are Best | Freedom of Speech, Censorship and Government Control with Eoghan McCabe @ Intercom

1479.946

I always struggle with this, like the values of hard work and resilience. I mean it in the nicest way. No one disagrees with them. One of our values is unreasonably hard work. I expect you to cancel your friend's dinner to continue working when you have a project. People will say, no, that's wrong, and you should have that balance. I say, that's fine. You should have another job somewhere else.

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1519.183

Oh, no, no. There are people who don't work very hard, but it doesn't mean that they're like, I disagree with it. They know they're lazy.

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1625.707

It's a divisive topic. Another divisive topic is politics. And you have leaned in to political commentary on social support. Just start off. Why did you decide to lean in on expressing your political views?

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That's T-E-G-U-S.com to check them out. You have now arrived at your destination. Owen, I am so excited for this, dude. I always remember our last show. It's one of my favorites that we've done. So thank you so much for joining me today, man.

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1768.932

So how do you feel about Brian Armstrong's famous piece about politics not having a place in the workspace?

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185.089

Not at all. But we always start with the context. And you've been asked 10,000 fucking times how many times you founded Intercom. And so we're just going to skip it. I want to dive right in. We are in a very interesting time of AI. And a lot of people are saying that customer service is the most impacted and will be removed. With Intercom's position, why are you not fucked by AI?

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1881.216

You said about authenticity and leadership there. When were you inauthentic to yourself as a leader, do you think?

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1959.182

Evil or rational? I always like to draw a different case, which is like, okay, everyone has a boss, okay? I have a boss as an investor, they're my LPs. No, if you are in my companies, you cannot say what you want because it could offend one of our LPs and they pay your rent.

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1992.209

What happens when freedom of speech is fake news? Who gets to decide what fake news is? Elon Musk posting a picture about Vinod Khosla's beach with no plebs allowed. He knew it wasn't fucking no plebs allowed.

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2031.457

Jokes are protected by freedom of speech. So if I say a joke and it's egregiously false misinformation that has massive- Absolutely.

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2135.214

No, but I think we should actually have rules. Again, God, maybe I'm just getting- Who makes the rules, my friend? Maybe I'm just getting so infected by Europeanism. But like, I could walk a situation where, you know, a black person or a white person or a Muslim, you choose your race, is getting beaten in the street by 10 others. And it's completely staged because it's a joke. And guess what?

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2158.432

I will put it in the right forums at the right time and incite a fuck ton of hatred. But it's a joke.

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2245.362

But everything from DEI to their being afraid to say about Trump, like, I don't feel any freedom to say anything around that.

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2283.307

In the refounding of Intercom, how have you most significantly changed as a CEO? It kind of feels like you found yourself.

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2356.132

What trait do you have that you're slightly ashamed of, but you think has contributed to your success?

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2402.879

Final one before we do a quick fire. SF is known for its productivity, benefits your career. You've got the new club. Yeah. Why you did it? Let's start there.

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244.907

So the conventional wisdom kind of in AI circles now is that actually customer service and customer support is the low-hanging fruit, and that's going to be picked off in the next year or two. What position does Intercom play in that landscape moving forwards? Or do you disagree that is not the timeframe and it will be a decade plus?

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2493.997

3.7 000 people on the wait lists we invited 600 people it's really apparent that the vast majority of people want fun and they want freedom i saw the pictures online they're fucking awesome so well done for that dude please please come to the next one it's in december if we could get you there that'll be outstanding that would be fun but listen i want to do a quick fire so i say a short statement you give me your immediate thoughts that sound okay sounds wonderful

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2518.226

What do you believe that most around you disbelieve, Owen? That nuclear holocaust is super possible.

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2599.756

If you were starting a new company, this is a different question. If you were starting a new company today, who would you take your first check from?

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2621.593

Mamoon's one of my favorites. One of the best of the best. Okay, final one for you. What question are you not often asked that you think you should be asked more? What is great leadership?

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2650.99

Dude, I love having you on because you actually get honesty and you don't get the veneer of corporate. I so appreciate this. As always, you've been wonderful to have on.

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2664.815

My word, that was so much fun to do. I love it when it's a natural discussion. You can watch the full interview by searching for 20VC on YouTube. That's 20VC, where you'll be able to find it easily to see the full discussion in video. But before we leave you today, I want to share something interesting about the private market.

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2681.141

There are many ways to buy and sell private stock today, but Hive is the only platform that provides a one-stop liquidity solution for private companies and their shareholders. It not only provides access to an active market, but also allows companies and boards to control key elements like buyer approvals, seller eligibility and even pricing, offering liquidity on their own terms.

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2701.661

What's more, Hive's comprehensive transaction execution service and centralized transaction tracking allow companies to stay on top of all past, pending, and upcoming transfer requests effortlessly and at no cost. Visit Hive.com, that's Hive with two I's, and see why they're the fastest growing liquidity platform in the world. Hive Markets Limited is a broker dealer and member of FINRA and SIPC.

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2724.375

Investments in private stock are risky. Only accredited investors may buy through Hive. And just like Hive transforms liquidity, Tegas transforms how we gather insights for investing. in software today, I think software is valuable when it saves time and makes something easier.

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2740.849

But when it enables the user to do something they simply could not do without it, then it's insanely powerful and valuable. That's the case with Tegas. Tegas, I literally could not live without. When I'm investing in a company, Tegas lets me see the most incredible reference calls with experts in a space who work at competitive companies or incumbents.

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2761.294

These calls and data provide the most incredible insight that really informs our opinions and investment decisions. I can then share snippets from calls with team members. This is a tool that will change how you work. And honestly, you cannot imagine life without it once you've experienced how powerful it is. You can tell how much I love Tegus.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Why Most AI Investments Will Do Worse than the S&P 500 | Why Early Stage VC is F******* | The Danger of Kamala Harris and Why Trump and Vance are Best | Freedom of Speech, Censorship and Government Control with Eoghan McCabe @ Intercom

2781.379

So simply head over to tegus.com, that's T-E-G-U-S.com to check them out. As always, I so appreciate all your support and stay tuned for one of the best 20 VC venture investor episodes we've ever done coming on Monday with the one and only David Frankel at Founder Collective.

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291.751

You leverage open AI and alternative models to drive that efficiency. Just help me understand. I don't actually understand. Is it the existing data sources that you have which allow you to do that better?

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41.641

I mean, this show has more peri-peri sauce than a Nando's extra hot chicken. This is one of the spiciest shows we've done in a while. Also, such range of discussion for a short show. AI, politics, freedom of speech. Owen McCabe, co-founder at Intercom, is incredible here. If you want to watch the full episode, you can find it on YouTube by searching for 20VC. That's two zero VC.

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449.919

And the question you asked. Do you think that we are overestimating technological advancements in AI? I mean, people are now thinking that actually with scaling laws and with, bluntly, the amount that incumbents are spending, we could actually get there so much quicker than we ever thought. And we are reaching a scale. Do you think we're not actually? And that is overhyped.

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522.936

This is my hardest thing as an ambassador, though, which is like, you know, determining sugar high revenues versus actually long, enduring, sustainable revenues. Because you're absolutely right. I invest for a living day to day. I see 10 million ARR. the whole freaking time from AI companies. Before that would, in 18 months, have been the gold standard.

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538.549

My challenge is the quality of revenue is much lower. Often their POCs are pilots if they're enterprise at all. It's the most exciting time to be investing and it's also the most challenging.

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567.581

There's a brilliant stat, which is in the two years following the founding of Netscape, only 1% of internet enterprise value was created.

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608.194

Klarna announced that they were stopping their customer contracts with Workday and with Salesforce. And it led to this wave of, wow, this is the future. Companies will build their own SaaS tools. I'm interested. How do you feel about that? And how do you respond to that question and concern?

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63.288

But before we begin, I want to share something interesting about the private market. There are many ways to buy and sell private stock today, but Hive is the only platform that provides a one-stop liquidity solution for private companies and their shareholders.

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20VC: Why Most AI Investments Will Do Worse than the S&P 500 | Why Early Stage VC is F******* | The Danger of Kamala Harris and Why Trump and Vance are Best | Freedom of Speech, Censorship and Government Control with Eoghan McCabe @ Intercom

679.011

I completely agree. I think it's one of the most ridiculous misnomers in the valley right now that everyone will build their own individual tools. Makes no sense. There's two worlds. One whereby it continues to cost a lot of money to provide such great high quality AI products. And you do a Canva and increase pricing by 300x. But I'm Canva. Love those guys.

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697.962

Or actually, we see costs go way down as they have done so far. And actually, pricing remains relatively stable. But it's the cost that really reduces. What world do you think is more likely and why?

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75.918

It not only provides access to an active market, but also allows companies and boards to control key elements like buyer approvals, seller eligibility and even pricing, offering liquidity on their own terms. What's more,

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768.553

Do you buy the reduction in team sizing that AI has? I think if you look back to the 70s, people would say, God, if we had computers that did all these things, we wouldn't need anyone here. Yet there's still companies with hundreds of thousands of people. How do you feel about the reductive nature of AI on team size?

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843.564

I am asking a spicy one here. Is Seb wrong then to fire 700 people in Klarna's customer service team? If they could do it, capitalism dictates that they should serve their shareholders. But if they can do it, why can't you do it? Why can't everyone do it?

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88.129

Hive's comprehensive transaction execution service and centralized transaction tracking allow companies to stay on top of all past, pending, and upcoming transfer requests effortlessly and at no cost. Visit Hive.com, that's Hive with two I's, and see why they're the fastest growing liquidity platform in the world. Hive Markets Limited is a broker-dealer and member of FINRA and SIPC.

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891.407

What extent do you think foundation model layer companies, your open AIs, your anthropics, subsume the core application layer companies, customer service maybe being one of them, Language translation maybe being one of them. To what extent do you think that's a reality?

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945.339

Can I ask you, what do you believe will happen in the next 10 years that currently today is considered crazy or nuts?

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1036.949

And so you get a 5X, but the company's only got a million or two in revenue. It's not exactly D-rate. So maybe it's B? Yeah, I would actually say B, C, where there's that crunch, where you're not pre-IPO growth, like growth, growth yet. So yeah.

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110.529

In addition to must-read journalism in your inbox every day, you'll engage with fellow leaders in their active discussions or in person at exclusive events. Learn more and access a special offer for 20VC's listeners at www.theinformation.com slash deals slash 20VC. And speaking of incredible products that allows your team to do more, we need to talk about SecureFrame.

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1136.327

I completely agree. And I love the way you use the word they're obsessed. I always want to start obsession capital. I think we always overestimate passion. It's easy to be passionate. It's very different to be completely like, you know, Nick, you've known me for 10 years. I'm fucking obsessed and I've never been more.

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1151.252

Yeah, the passion comes and goes. But I just want to start, you said that seed funds will continue to do well. Well, kind of not though, Nick, because you're a little bit on your own in this respect. Most of the seed funds that we actually have in market today are trying to compete with Index and with Founders Fund and with Sequoia on the 525s.

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1174.171

So it'll just go from like, not that good to like... A little worse. But I think we've got an issue now where LPs are going, oh, you know, there's a liquidity issue. There's a DPI issue. I think it's a permanent loss of capital issue, actually. And that they actually have significantly impaired books that they just don't know yet. I totally agree.

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1274.269

One of the most irrational is not allocating based on performance, but allocating based on not getting fired. You mentioned the big banks before. The big banks in venture, we all know, are going to do pretty poor numbers. But actually, they're catering to an LP class that's scared of getting fired or is happy with lower returns. Is that just a continuation of their funding supply? That's just...

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1302.937

Do you not worry that a load of endowments and pension funds are actually investing in these five, $10 billion funds that are going to get really shitty returns?

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134.535

SecureFrame provides incredible levels of trust to your customers through automation. SecureFrame empowers businesses to build trust with customers by simplifying information security and compliance through AI and automation.

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Founders have full control. Do you think that is right? Have we not learned the errors of our ways in terms of lack of board controls with large amounts of money?

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the right founders i i don't know if that's quite quite i mean it doesn't get you get a lot of bad behavior right but like there's it doesn't take down for nuance your founder can get ill and sick and he's replaced and that's terrible or she's replaced and that's terrible but for you and me as precedence seed investors you have to have provisions you have to have protections this is a real fiduciary responsibility and they get hit by a car tomorrow

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Thousands of fast-growing businesses, including NASDAQ, AngelList, Doodle, and Coda, trust SecureFrame to expedite their compliance journey for global security and privacy standards such as SOC 2.0, ISO 2701, HIPAA, GDPR, and more.

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Because they do actually matter in times that are not boom, boom, go, go times. There is actually a big difference between a 0.8x fund and a 1.6x fund. I know no one's shooting for that. I know that.

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But actually, those provisions exist for a reason, which is because in harder times, being able to get back 1x, not 0.2x, actually across several companies, which is often the case, makes a big difference. It can make a half turn on a fund.

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Does it not create the kind of the opposite of a Ponzi scheme in venture, which is like founders can raise money from VCs and then sell for an amount that is less than funding and they get back much more than they ever started with?

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I'm seeing this more and more now. They're actually against the investor where acquirers buy for little to nothing and then have massive packages for team, have retention packages, essentially an acquisition baked in post-acquisition.

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Backed by top-tier investors and corporations such as Google, Kleiner Perkins, the company is among the Forbes list of top 100 startup employers for 2023 and Business Insider's list of the 34 most promising AI startups of 2023. Learn more today at secureframe.com. It really is a must.

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though which is like you can be swayed by your heroes and what i mean by that is you know a founder can be sitting down with you name your great great ceo who they've looked up to since they were 10 and they say come on dude nick's made a ton of money on notation he doesn't need the money it's perfect it happens all the time look at these companies we've done it before with and previously good and good kind-hearted people go ah and they do it it doesn't make them bad it doesn't

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it was a bad choice, but nuance situation is not something that you can account for. It's why we have like prenups because, oh, I hope, I hope they don't fuck me if we get divorced.

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An honest conversation doth butter no parsnips, Nick. You cannot eat. That's like an English way of saying, right? Means shit. Oh, he had a really honest conversation and then shot me in the head. Oh, thanks. At least he had the honest conversation then. Good for him.

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And finally, a company is nothing without its people, and so I want to talk about Cooley, the global law firm built around startups and venture capital. Since forming the first venture fund in Silicon Valley, Cooley has formed more venture capital funds than any other law firm in the world, with 60 plus years working with VCs.

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I'm so enjoying this, Nate. Normally I have these really like, you know, nice chit chat and there's a little like passion and emotion, but this is so much fun for me to do on a Friday. What else? What else? There's probably, there's probably many. I mean, there's obviously a lot of VC on VC crime. Have you seen what VC on VC crime?

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Speaking of these kind of massive banks, the way they operate, you said something that I thought was really interesting to me before, which was, you know, we actually got big VCs ruin startups because they want to fund capital inefficiency, which kind of goes counter the narrative, say, of everything that we hear. Why do big VCs want to fund capital inefficiency?

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They help VCs form and manage funds, make investments, and handle the myriad issues that arise through a fund's lifetime. We use them at 20 VC and have loved working with their teams in the US, London and Asia over the last few years.

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Do you blame founders for raising more? I look at that, you know, I've done 170 investments now over 10 years. The worst category of seed investments that I've made have been five on 25. They are slower. They lose urgency. They try and do too much too soon because they can do more than one thing at once. The founders lose proximity to customers. They're the worst.

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Wow. That's a really interesting stat, which is in the top decile funds, they have guaranteed fund returners. Again, it goes back to the obvious, but great venture returns are made by fund returners, not many half fund returners.

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So to learn more about the number one most active law firm representing VC-backed companies going public, head over to cooley.com and also cooleygo.com, Cooley's award-winning free legal resource for entrepreneurs. You have now arrived at your destination. Nick, dude, I am so excited for this.

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Was it an easy decision to sell? It was. I'm still in shock, dude. That's all. I'm so happy for you. You're such a nice guy.

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what do you do if you don't get the space you don't understand it it's in deep tech hard tech you name it whatever that is you don't get the space but you and i both know founders we've met thousands this is a great founder do you back it up anyway even though you literally don't get it or do you go no

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I can't believe it's been quite so many years since we did our last show, but thank you so much for joining me today.

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You don't have that because you don't know the space well enough to argue that thesis. That's the whole point. I agree with you. It's like I have a thesis that's counter to market and I'm investing against that with the belief in the founder. But like you don't know the market, so you don't know fuck about staking in this case.

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Obviously, obviously. But then to what extent are we truly founder-led investors?

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Yeah, I was still in Hogwarts back then. Luckily, Dumbledore let me go. When we last spoke, you were running Notation. Now we have Asylum. Talk to me about this. What's changed with Notation and Asylum?

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Listen, you have USVI, I have Sequoia. Doug Leone actively walked Fred Luddy back from selling ServiceNow for a couple of billion, a billion, whatever. There are quite a few stories of where that is the case.

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I think there's a real under-discussed misalignment in venture when you have heavy returns in venture models. And what I mean by that is if I do seed A, B, or even I just do seed, but I have heavy reserves, the founder is not always incentivized to tell me just how bad everything is because they quite rightly want the follow-on check.

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They want me to lead the A. They want me to lead the B. There is this really imperfect information that comes from that. Do you agree? Do you see that? How do you think about that?

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I totally agree. Vinolcosa says that 90% of VCs actually detract value. Do you think that's a little bit unfair or do you think that's right?

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I agree with you, but it's not just a different case. Is that not just rational? If you're thinking about concentrating finite resources, time. Short-term rational, long-term irrational. But you can't do everything, dude.

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Maybe we've been a part of the problem, bluntly 20 VC, but like you've got a generation of founders that's just taught you have an idea, you raise money. It's not you have an idea, you build products, you get customers. It's you have an idea, you raise money. That is the chosen path. Do you agree that that is just the perception now with a generation that is so used to that as the dominant wisdom?

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Okay, so asylum is how big? What check sizes do we write? What's the mission?

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I go back. I agree also that I don't think everyone is destined or meant to be an entrepreneur and I do just want to, before we do a quick fire, you know, we mentioned A24 and the kind of guiding inspiration there. Truth be told, honestly, Nick, I've been in some rockets that then turned out to not be rockets. Your clubhouse, to your hop in, to your be real.

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And they are portfolios with assets in, whether you like it or not in terms of naming. And I should have been much more proactive in terms of managing positions and exiting when I could have done. Is there a way to navigate in your mind this much more banker-like mindset towards positions, position sizing, liquidity timing, but also retaining the artisanal element that you like?

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I wouldn't want that because quite often a founder will take a million or two off in the A. And I completely support that and understand that. It's to buy not lifestyle retirement, but just a home, kids' school fees.

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I wouldn't want to take money off though when they're doing that. Do you? Why? If I believe in the business, just because the founder needs a little bit of cash for school fees. And I believe- I think that's fair.

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What was the single biggest mistake you made in Zerp? I mentioned my not selling-

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I don't understand how you do a five million post because then you're going to get five. Well, those are rare. Those are rare these days.

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What's your average entry price today at Preseed? Um, eight to 10. And Jack, so one and a half to two? Yeah, one to two. I love this, Nick. It's so good to see you again. I want to do a quick fire round with you. So I say a short statement, you give me your immediate thoughts. What do you believe that most around you disbelieve?

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Sourcing, selecting, and servicing. Rank one through three what you're best at to worst at and why.

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Totally. I completely agree with that. Final one for you, man. What question are you never asked that you should be asked more? Maybe relevant for this conversation.

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Dude, I'm sorry about your mother. I'm very close to mine. I think mothers are incredibly, incredibly important. And I'm really sorry to hear that. And thank you for sharing it. Dude, I do this show because of interviews like this, because of relationships like this, where we don't need to talk that much. We only need to talk for years. Yeah.

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But when we do, suddenly it's like, this is why I love what I do. So thank you for being so brilliant. Thank you for putting up with my shit throwing back. I agreed with most of what you said, but you were just incredible, dude. So thank you. Thank you so much, Harry.

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I love it when a show is a discussion like that. Nick was fantastic on the show. It was such a great episode. God, I enjoyed that. You can watch it all on YouTube by searching for 20VC. That's 20VC.

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But before we leave you today, when a promising startup files for an IPO or a venture capital firm loses its marquee partner, being the first to know gives you an advantage and time to plan your strategic response. Chances are the information reported it first.

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The information is the trusted source for that important first look at actionable news across technology and finance, driving decisions with breaking stories, proprietary data tools and a spotlight on industry trends. With a subscription, you will join an elite community that includes leaders from the top VC firms, CEOs from Fortune 500 companies and esteemed banking and investment professionals.

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In addition to must-read journalism in your inbox every day, you'll engage with fellow leaders in their active discussions or in person at exclusive events. Learn more and access a special offer for 20VCs listeners at www.theinformation.com slash deals slash 20VC. And speaking of incredible products that allows your team to do more, we need to talk about SecureFrame.

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SecureFrame provides incredible levels of trust to your customers through automation. SecureFrame empowers businesses to build trust with customers by simplifying information security and compliance through AI and automation. Thousands of fast-growing businesses, including NASDAQ, AngelList, Doodle, and Coda trust SecureFrame

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to expedite their compliance journey for global security and privacy standards such as SOC 2, ISO 2701, HIPAA, GDPR, and more. Backed by top-tier investors and corporations such as Google, Kleiner Perkins, the company is among the Forbes list of top 100 startup employers for 2023 and Business Insider's list of the 34 most promising AI startups of 2023. Learn more today at secureframe.com.

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It really is a must. And finally, a company is nothing without its people. The global law firm built around startups and venture capital. Since forming the first venture fund in Silicon Valley, Cooley has formed more venture capital funds than any other law firm in the world, with 60 plus years working with VCs.

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They help VCs form and manage funds, make investments, and handle the myriad issues that arise through a fund's lifetime. We use them at 20 VC and have loved working with their teams in the US, London and Asia over the last few years.

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So to learn more about the number one most active law firm representing VC-backed companies going public, head over to cooley.com and also cooleygo.com, Cooley's award-winning free legal resource for entrepreneurs. As always, I so appreciate all your support and stay tuned for an incredible episode coming this Wednesday.

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Dude, I love so much of what you said. We said this before, a conversation where everyone agrees is not a particularly interesting one. So I am going to take the opposing side of the debate, but I agree mostly with you. You'll also hear when I don't agree. But I want to unpack quite a few different elements that you said there.

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20VC: Why VC is a Ponzi Scheme Today | Why Most VCs are Bankers | Why Big VCs Ruin Startups | Why Incentives in VC are Broken | Why American Dynamism is a Tool for VCs to Raise Money with Nick Chirls, Asylum Ventures

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I mean, this is one spicy show today. We last had Nick Churls on the show nine years ago when he founded Notation. Today, he's back with the announcement that he's founded another venture firm, Asylum Ventures, a 55 million early stage firm in New York that's really focused on treating founders like artists, not like assets. And this show is spicy.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Why VC is a Ponzi Scheme Today | Why Most VCs are Bankers | Why Big VCs Ruin Startups | Why Incentives in VC are Broken | Why American Dynamism is a Tool for VCs to Raise Money with Nick Chirls, Asylum Ventures

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Starting on one element, you said about packaging up for different rounds. It reminded me of something you said to me before, which is, you know, essentially that venture is basically a Ponzi scheme. Why has venture turned into a Ponzi scheme, do you think, Nick?

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Why VC is a Ponzi Scheme Today | Why Most VCs are Bankers | Why Big VCs Ruin Startups | Why Incentives in VC are Broken | Why American Dynamism is a Tool for VCs to Raise Money with Nick Chirls, Asylum Ventures

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You could say that about, I'm being deliberately divisive, you could say that about any job. How many people would do any job if they had to pay back all of the salary if they weren't meeting targets and successful? No one would do the job.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Why VC is a Ponzi Scheme Today | Why Most VCs are Bankers | Why Big VCs Ruin Startups | Why Incentives in VC are Broken | Why American Dynamism is a Tool for VCs to Raise Money with Nick Chirls, Asylum Ventures

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You'll only get paid if you deliver a three-to-one LTV to CAC. And if you don't, you owe me back all the money. I would have zero people outside my door, I think. Maybe, or maybe you'd have some of the best. But they don't need to do that. Why would I need to? Sequoia don't need to do that. Benchmark don't need to do that.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Why VC is a Ponzi Scheme Today | Why Most VCs are Bankers | Why Big VCs Ruin Startups | Why Incentives in VC are Broken | Why American Dynamism is a Tool for VCs to Raise Money with Nick Chirls, Asylum Ventures

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Actually, to the extent that even more so, Nick, they can charge premium fees. They can charge 25-30% carry and 2.5%.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Why VC is a Ponzi Scheme Today | Why Most VCs are Bankers | Why Big VCs Ruin Startups | Why Incentives in VC are Broken | Why American Dynamism is a Tool for VCs to Raise Money with Nick Chirls, Asylum Ventures

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Push back again. Track's a lagging indicator. There's a lot of firms that got lucky on a couple of deals. Go forward. They're not aspirational capital. They don't have really different ways to find great entrepreneurs and they can't win. I think track's a bit of a lazy way to do it. Yeah. So maybe over multiple funds. You need to pay teams. You need to pay for offices.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Why VC is a Ponzi Scheme Today | Why Most VCs are Bankers | Why Big VCs Ruin Startups | Why Incentives in VC are Broken | Why American Dynamism is a Tool for VCs to Raise Money with Nick Chirls, Asylum Ventures

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Why VCs are just like bankers, why venture has become a Ponzi scheme and how the mega firms ruin startups by funding inefficiency and even encouraging it. There is so much good stuff in this one and it is not to be missed.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Why VC is a Ponzi Scheme Today | Why Most VCs are Bankers | Why Big VCs Ruin Startups | Why Incentives in VC are Broken | Why American Dynamism is a Tool for VCs to Raise Money with Nick Chirls, Asylum Ventures

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If you want to get the best people, which we've been through, the best people cost money. I can play the game on the field or I can not, but then I'll be sitting on my own with a budget-based system and no talent. I mean, build a budget to go hire the best talent.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Why VC is a Ponzi Scheme Today | Why Most VCs are Bankers | Why Big VCs Ruin Startups | Why Incentives in VC are Broken | Why American Dynamism is a Tool for VCs to Raise Money with Nick Chirls, Asylum Ventures

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What would you say to people who go, ah, but you're in a fort? That's amazing, Nick, by the way. And like, thank you.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Why VC is a Ponzi Scheme Today | Why Most VCs are Bankers | Why Big VCs Ruin Startups | Why Incentives in VC are Broken | Why American Dynamism is a Tool for VCs to Raise Money with Nick Chirls, Asylum Ventures

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I do live by it. Amazing. And I love that. But like, what would you say to people who go, well, you can afford to do that. Most of us can't afford to. That's what everyone's going to be saying in Twitter.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Why VC is a Ponzi Scheme Today | Why Most VCs are Bankers | Why Big VCs Ruin Startups | Why Incentives in VC are Broken | Why American Dynamism is a Tool for VCs to Raise Money with Nick Chirls, Asylum Ventures

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Which respectfully I find is another one that LPs get very wrong though, which is like, I'm often put in the same bucket as billionaire GPs. And like 1% for me as a solo GP is me and everything beyond.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Why VC is a Ponzi Scheme Today | Why Most VCs are Bankers | Why Big VCs Ruin Startups | Why Incentives in VC are Broken | Why American Dynamism is a Tool for VCs to Raise Money with Nick Chirls, Asylum Ventures

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like sort of like understand roughly like what they make and how much they're worth and then sort of back out from that that may be a valid diligence can i ask on the ponzi theme structure i had doug leone said on the show that we've moved from a boutique high margin business to a commoditized low margin industry do you completely agree with that what do you think

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Why VC is a Ponzi Scheme Today | Why Most VCs are Bankers | Why Big VCs Ruin Startups | Why Incentives in VC are Broken | Why American Dynamism is a Tool for VCs to Raise Money with Nick Chirls, Asylum Ventures

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I don't think it's quite as black and white. I do think that is the prevailing winds, but I think that there are still artisans who will thrive and succeed within that ecosystem. Like Benchmark, like USV, Ribbit are large, but I would still say they're artisans of their craft and fintech. I see a more nuanced world.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Why VC is a Ponzi Scheme Today | Why Most VCs are Bankers | Why Big VCs Ruin Startups | Why Incentives in VC are Broken | Why American Dynamism is a Tool for VCs to Raise Money with Nick Chirls, Asylum Ventures

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But before we dive in, when a promising startup files for an IPO or a venture capital firm loses its marquee partner, being the first to know gives you an advantage and time to plan your strategic response. Chances are the information reported it first.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Why VC is a Ponzi Scheme Today | Why Most VCs are Bankers | Why Big VCs Ruin Startups | Why Incentives in VC are Broken | Why American Dynamism is a Tool for VCs to Raise Money with Nick Chirls, Asylum Ventures

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You don't think so? No, I don't. I think that actually this is where the kind of prevailing strong winds have come in. You see multistage funds provide such solid products at pre-seed and seed and created individual products. Your index have a separate seed fund in particular just for this asset class.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Why VC is a Ponzi Scheme Today | Why Most VCs are Bankers | Why Big VCs Ruin Startups | Why Incentives in VC are Broken | Why American Dynamism is a Tool for VCs to Raise Money with Nick Chirls, Asylum Ventures

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I actually think that they've come in with such efficiency that actually they've made it so much harder for the existing pure seed players. They've increased price. They've increased supply. I think you will see returns significantly denigrate. We all saw 5x seed funds when our entry prices, Nick, were 12. Yeah? Well, when they're 25, we've just been hit to 2.5x. Totally disagree.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Why VC is a Ponzi Scheme Today | Why Most VCs are Bankers | Why Big VCs Ruin Startups | Why Incentives in VC are Broken | Why American Dynamism is a Tool for VCs to Raise Money with Nick Chirls, Asylum Ventures

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The information is the trusted source for that important first look at actionable news across technology and finance, driving decisions with breaking stories, proprietary data tools, and a spotlight on industry trends. With a subscription, you will join an elite community that includes leaders from the top VC firms, CEOs from Fortune 500 companies, and esteemed banking and investment professionals.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Why VC is a Ponzi Scheme Today | Why Most VCs are Bankers | Why Big VCs Ruin Startups | Why Incentives in VC are Broken | Why American Dynamism is a Tool for VCs to Raise Money with Nick Chirls, Asylum Ventures

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I actually agree with you there. I think there's two ways to do venture generally across stages even, which is like contrarian and right with less competition. But you're going where no one else is. You're finding diamonds in the rough or you're saying this is a diamond and everyone else sees it too. But I'm going to beat you with my better cash. kind of the two ways to venture.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20VC: Why VC is a Ponzi Scheme Today | Why Most VCs are Bankers | Why Big VCs Ruin Startups | Why Incentives in VC are Broken | Why American Dynamism is a Tool for VCs to Raise Money with Nick Chirls, Asylum Ventures

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I do think you can be non-contrarian. In other words, pick the trend, invest in the winner and win that trend. It doesn't have to be contrarian, but I completely agree with you there.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20Product: How the Best Teams Do Product Reviews | What Everyone Gets Wrong in Hiring Product Teams | Product Lessons Leading Facebook App Monetisation Team to Billions in Revenue with Maria Angelidou, CPO @ Personio

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Head to pendo.io slash 20product dash podcast and get started with Pendo's free product. Don't miss out on creating the ultimate user experience. And talking about AI, Glean is the leading work AI platform that transforms how teams operate. AI has the potential to help everyone at work with nearly everything they do, but only if it deeply understands the data, people, processes, and context.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20Product: How the Best Teams Do Product Reviews | What Everyone Gets Wrong in Hiring Product Teams | Product Lessons Leading Facebook App Monetisation Team to Billions in Revenue with Maria Angelidou, CPO @ Personio

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So when we think about helping them ship better products, the way to measure that is most often in product reviews. Very different according to different leaders, different companies. What have been your biggest lessons on how to do product reviews right?

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20Product: How the Best Teams Do Product Reviews | What Everyone Gets Wrong in Hiring Product Teams | Product Lessons Leading Facebook App Monetisation Team to Billions in Revenue with Maria Angelidou, CPO @ Personio

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strategy number one Gustav at Spotify who I love and he's right and I'm wrong on this just to be very clear but he always says talk is cheap and so we should do more of it when it comes to like strategic direction where to go and kind of orienting that direction I think I think talk's really expensive and we should do less of it says the podcast brilliant irony there how do you think about

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20Product: How the Best Teams Do Product Reviews | What Everyone Gets Wrong in Hiring Product Teams | Product Lessons Leading Facebook App Monetisation Team to Billions in Revenue with Maria Angelidou, CPO @ Personio

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specific to your work. Glean is the leading work AI platform that does exactly that. Glean's powerful AI assistant helps you find answers, generate content and automate work. You can also build no-code and low-code custom generative AI apps and agents that scale the power of your company's knowledge anywhere it's needed.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20Product: How the Best Teams Do Product Reviews | What Everyone Gets Wrong in Hiring Product Teams | Product Lessons Leading Facebook App Monetisation Team to Billions in Revenue with Maria Angelidou, CPO @ Personio

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talk is cheap, we should do more of it, really encouraging debate versus my style, which is more dictatorial direction.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20Product: How the Best Teams Do Product Reviews | What Everyone Gets Wrong in Hiring Product Teams | Product Lessons Leading Facebook App Monetisation Team to Billions in Revenue with Maria Angelidou, CPO @ Personio

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I got told I had to ask this. What is possibility thinking? That sounded like pontification.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20Product: How the Best Teams Do Product Reviews | What Everyone Gets Wrong in Hiring Product Teams | Product Lessons Leading Facebook App Monetisation Team to Billions in Revenue with Maria Angelidou, CPO @ Personio

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Hundreds of enterprises, including some of the world's leading technology, telecom, retail, manufacturing and banking businesses, Put AI to work with Glean, empowering engineers to ship code faster, sales reps to better understand their customers, support agents to resolve cases more accurately, and IT teams to deflect questions and solve issues automatically. Glean is work AI for all.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20Product: How the Best Teams Do Product Reviews | What Everyone Gets Wrong in Hiring Product Teams | Product Lessons Leading Facebook App Monetisation Team to Billions in Revenue with Maria Angelidou, CPO @ Personio

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One thing that I love to is like to actually personalize it's different people. So I'll say, what would Mr. Beast do if he was running our product today? And then what would Johnny Ive do if he was running our product today? And from the same person, you will get multiple different answers with that image of that person in mind.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20Product: How the Best Teams Do Product Reviews | What Everyone Gets Wrong in Hiring Product Teams | Product Lessons Leading Facebook App Monetisation Team to Billions in Revenue with Maria Angelidou, CPO @ Personio

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And they'll both be big ideas, but one will be inherently much more design aesthetically pleasing. One will be shock and awe pleasing. And it helps frame different big idea generation in people's minds. Can I ask launch strategy meetings? I think people do product launches terribly today.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20Product: How the Best Teams Do Product Reviews | What Everyone Gets Wrong in Hiring Product Teams | Product Lessons Leading Facebook App Monetisation Team to Billions in Revenue with Maria Angelidou, CPO @ Personio

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Do you know when a launch is good? Like when you have a product that works, is it always just like off into the races?

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20Product: How the Best Teams Do Product Reviews | What Everyone Gets Wrong in Hiring Product Teams | Product Lessons Leading Facebook App Monetisation Team to Billions in Revenue with Maria Angelidou, CPO @ Personio

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So I heard this brilliant statement the other day, and it was like, yesterday is history, tomorrow is a mystery, and today is a gift. And that's why it's called the present. Which I thought was really sweet.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20Product: How the Best Teams Do Product Reviews | What Everyone Gets Wrong in Hiring Product Teams | Product Lessons Leading Facebook App Monetisation Team to Billions in Revenue with Maria Angelidou, CPO @ Personio

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My question around that actually specifically is about resource allocation as CPTO and how you think about allocating resources between historical tech debt, existing revenue streams that are working very well and need resources, and future blue sky thinking this could be a next great product.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20Product: How the Best Teams Do Product Reviews | What Everyone Gets Wrong in Hiring Product Teams | Product Lessons Leading Facebook App Monetisation Team to Billions in Revenue with Maria Angelidou, CPO @ Personio

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Visit glean.com slash 20 to request a demo today. You have now arrived at your... Maria, I am so excited for this. I'm also so excited. This is your first time on a podcast. It is. So thank you so much for joining me today.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20Product: How the Best Teams Do Product Reviews | What Everyone Gets Wrong in Hiring Product Teams | Product Lessons Leading Facebook App Monetisation Team to Billions in Revenue with Maria Angelidou, CPO @ Personio

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And hiring is so important to any leader's role, probably the most important. What have been your biggest lessons on how to hire the best product people?

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20Product: How the Best Teams Do Product Reviews | What Everyone Gets Wrong in Hiring Product Teams | Product Lessons Leading Facebook App Monetisation Team to Billions in Revenue with Maria Angelidou, CPO @ Personio

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If they're better than me and I would want to report to them, fuck it. I'll pay them more than me and I will report to them. But they're not. Of course they're not. That's why I'm where I am and that's where they are. I'm sorry. And actually it takes out the whole segment of young people who are incredibly tenacious, ambitious, hungry hustlers, who of course they're not as good as me.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20Product: How the Best Teams Do Product Reviews | What Everyone Gets Wrong in Hiring Product Teams | Product Lessons Leading Facebook App Monetisation Team to Billions in Revenue with Maria Angelidou, CPO @ Personio

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Now, I heard there was a sliding doors moment when it comes to your entrance into Facebook. So tell me, how did this sliding door story come to be on joining Facebook?

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20Product: How the Best Teams Do Product Reviews | What Everyone Gets Wrong in Hiring Product Teams | Product Lessons Leading Facebook App Monetisation Team to Billions in Revenue with Maria Angelidou, CPO @ Personio

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So in a future world, we can see ourselves reporting to them. What's the hiring process?

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20Product: How the Best Teams Do Product Reviews | What Everyone Gets Wrong in Hiring Product Teams | Product Lessons Leading Facebook App Monetisation Team to Billions in Revenue with Maria Angelidou, CPO @ Personio

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And so is that a problem that the company faces or a product problem that the company faces?

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20Product: How the Best Teams Do Product Reviews | What Everyone Gets Wrong in Hiring Product Teams | Product Lessons Leading Facebook App Monetisation Team to Billions in Revenue with Maria Angelidou, CPO @ Personio

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Does that feel right when you say that? Like that feels like an awfully long process. If I was top talent, which I'm not, I am like, oh my God. Like we could have a chat. You meet me at an event and I'm clearly a brilliant product person. I don't want to go through that.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20Product: How the Best Teams Do Product Reviews | What Everyone Gets Wrong in Hiring Product Teams | Product Lessons Leading Facebook App Monetisation Team to Billions in Revenue with Maria Angelidou, CPO @ Personio

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How do you think about the comp stage when you offer comp and responses to comp and title?

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20Product: How the Best Teams Do Product Reviews | What Everyone Gets Wrong in Hiring Product Teams | Product Lessons Leading Facebook App Monetisation Team to Billions in Revenue with Maria Angelidou, CPO @ Personio

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Can you let someone go in a few weeks? It feels a bit harsh. I'm with you, totally. You can't let them go.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20Product: How the Best Teams Do Product Reviews | What Everyone Gets Wrong in Hiring Product Teams | Product Lessons Leading Facebook App Monetisation Team to Billions in Revenue with Maria Angelidou, CPO @ Personio

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Wow, so you can make a mistake and it's like... No, you make a mistake and you part ways. No, we have probation.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20Product: How the Best Teams Do Product Reviews | What Everyone Gets Wrong in Hiring Product Teams | Product Lessons Leading Facebook App Monetisation Team to Billions in Revenue with Maria Angelidou, CPO @ Personio

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Do you find differences in terms of work ethic, respectfully, or approaches to work in intensity?

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20Product: How the Best Teams Do Product Reviews | What Everyone Gets Wrong in Hiring Product Teams | Product Lessons Leading Facebook App Monetisation Team to Billions in Revenue with Maria Angelidou, CPO @ Personio

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you know the things that you do together in person they become much higher signal you know we're a media company we have creativity at the core I hope of what we do you lose all creativity for me as a media company if we're remote and so much is that I've got an idea Maria let's run with this what do you think oh and then someone else hears it across the room I don't think that's gonna work but did you see this this could work

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20Product: How the Best Teams Do Product Reviews | What Everyone Gets Wrong in Hiring Product Teams | Product Lessons Leading Facebook App Monetisation Team to Billions in Revenue with Maria Angelidou, CPO @ Personio

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Having worked in the center of the valley and now in Europe, are you more of a bear or a bull on European innovation?

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20Product: How the Best Teams Do Product Reviews | What Everyone Gets Wrong in Hiring Product Teams | Product Lessons Leading Facebook App Monetisation Team to Billions in Revenue with Maria Angelidou, CPO @ Personio

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Can we do a quick fire round? Sure, let's do it. Okay, so tell me about a time when you most vociferously disagreed with your manager.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20Product: How the Best Teams Do Product Reviews | What Everyone Gets Wrong in Hiring Product Teams | Product Lessons Leading Facebook App Monetisation Team to Billions in Revenue with Maria Angelidou, CPO @ Personio

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People often won't do the role until they're given it, hence be a plate remover. You're not going to take your boss's job when your boss is still there and he's doing it. Well, she's doing it.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20Product: How the Best Teams Do Product Reviews | What Everyone Gets Wrong in Hiring Product Teams | Product Lessons Leading Facebook App Monetisation Team to Billions in Revenue with Maria Angelidou, CPO @ Personio

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A friend of yours has just become a CPO at a new company or at a company and they start the role tomorrow and we're having a coffee beforehand today. What do you advise them starting the role?

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20Product: How the Best Teams Do Product Reviews | What Everyone Gets Wrong in Hiring Product Teams | Product Lessons Leading Facebook App Monetisation Team to Billions in Revenue with Maria Angelidou, CPO @ Personio

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Final one, which recent company product strategy have you been most impressed by?

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20Product: How the Best Teams Do Product Reviews | What Everyone Gets Wrong in Hiring Product Teams | Product Lessons Leading Facebook App Monetisation Team to Billions in Revenue with Maria Angelidou, CPO @ Personio

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I so appreciate your putting up with me pushing back on many different aspects. I've loved doing this. So thank you so much for making this your first podcast.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20Product: How the Best Teams Do Product Reviews | What Everyone Gets Wrong in Hiring Product Teams | Product Lessons Leading Facebook App Monetisation Team to Billions in Revenue with Maria Angelidou, CPO @ Personio

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The thing I love so much about these vertical shows is very specific, granular advice that you can implement in your business today. That was fantastic from Maria. I so enjoyed having her on the show. And you can watch the full episode on YouTube by searching for 20VC. That's 20VC.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20Product: How the Best Teams Do Product Reviews | What Everyone Gets Wrong in Hiring Product Teams | Product Lessons Leading Facebook App Monetisation Team to Billions in Revenue with Maria Angelidou, CPO @ Personio

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But before we leave you today, this episode is brought to you by Pendo, the only all-in-one product experience platform for any type of application. Pendo helps you get your users to do what you want them to do. With Pendo, you get everything from analytics, in-app guidance, session replay, mobile features, feedback management, and roadmapping all working together seamlessly.

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20Product: How the Best Teams Do Product Reviews | What Everyone Gets Wrong in Hiring Product Teams | Product Lessons Leading Facebook App Monetisation Team to Billions in Revenue with Maria Angelidou, CPO @ Personio

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It's built specifically for creating exceptional product experiences, and it's trusted by more than 10,000 companies, including the world's largest community of product managers, Mind the Product. Want to see how Pendo can work for you? Head to pendo.io slash 20product-podcast and get started with Pendo's free product. Don't miss out on creating the ultimate user experience.

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20Product: How the Best Teams Do Product Reviews | What Everyone Gets Wrong in Hiring Product Teams | Product Lessons Leading Facebook App Monetisation Team to Billions in Revenue with Maria Angelidou, CPO @ Personio

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And talking about AI, Glean is the leading work AI platform that transforms how teams operate. AI has the potential to help everyone at work with nearly everything they do, but only if it deeply understands the data, people, processes and context specific to your work. Glean is the leading work AI platform that does exactly that.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20Product: How the Best Teams Do Product Reviews | What Everyone Gets Wrong in Hiring Product Teams | Product Lessons Leading Facebook App Monetisation Team to Billions in Revenue with Maria Angelidou, CPO @ Personio

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You are listening to 20 Product with me, Harry Stebbings. Now, 20 Product is the monthly show where we sit down with the best product leaders to unpack their tips, tactics, and strategies to scaling incredible product teams.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20Product: How the Best Teams Do Product Reviews | What Everyone Gets Wrong in Hiring Product Teams | Product Lessons Leading Facebook App Monetisation Team to Billions in Revenue with Maria Angelidou, CPO @ Personio

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Glean's powerful AI assistant helps you find answers, generate content and automate work. You can also build no-code and low-code custom generative AI apps and agents that scale the power of your company's knowledge anywhere it's needed.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20Product: How the Best Teams Do Product Reviews | What Everyone Gets Wrong in Hiring Product Teams | Product Lessons Leading Facebook App Monetisation Team to Billions in Revenue with Maria Angelidou, CPO @ Personio

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Hundreds of enterprises, including some of the world's leading technology, telecom, retail, manufacturing and banking businesses, put AI to work with Glean, empowering engineers to ship code faster, sales reps to better understand their customers. support agents to resolve cases more accurately, and IT teams to deflect questions and solve issues automatically. Glean is work AI for all.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20Product: How the Best Teams Do Product Reviews | What Everyone Gets Wrong in Hiring Product Teams | Product Lessons Leading Facebook App Monetisation Team to Billions in Revenue with Maria Angelidou, CPO @ Personio

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Visit glean.com slash 20 to request a demo today. As always, I so appreciate all your support and stay tuned for an incredible episode coming this Monday with Iso Cant, co-founder of Poolside AI.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20Product: How the Best Teams Do Product Reviews | What Everyone Gets Wrong in Hiring Product Teams | Product Lessons Leading Facebook App Monetisation Team to Billions in Revenue with Maria Angelidou, CPO @ Personio

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How do you think about the transition from IC to manager? You went, as you said, that starting as a PM and then you get into this kind of three tiers to me, which is like IC, manager, leader, you can correct me. But that transition from IC to manager is a big one. How did you think about making that transition?

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20Product: How the Best Teams Do Product Reviews | What Everyone Gets Wrong in Hiring Product Teams | Product Lessons Leading Facebook App Monetisation Team to Billions in Revenue with Maria Angelidou, CPO @ Personio

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Do you think we have a skewed view of progression? And what I mean by that is you can be a brilliant IC and you should stay as an IC. Actually, some people aren't destined to be managers and managing people, but that's the way that we're told it works. You do very well and then you get promoted. Is that broken?

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20Product: How the Best Teams Do Product Reviews | What Everyone Gets Wrong in Hiring Product Teams | Product Lessons Leading Facebook App Monetisation Team to Billions in Revenue with Maria Angelidou, CPO @ Personio

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Today, we sit down with Maria Angelou, one of the product OGs, having spent close to a decade at Meta, working on some of the largest products, such as Facebook groups, which has 2 billion users, events... profile and search. Before that, Maria led the Facebook app monetization team, driving billions of dollars in revenue.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20Product: How the Best Teams Do Product Reviews | What Everyone Gets Wrong in Hiring Product Teams | Product Lessons Leading Facebook App Monetisation Team to Billions in Revenue with Maria Angelidou, CPO @ Personio

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So we have that in terms of, you know, IC to manager, and then the third being leader. How do we think about what is required to go from manager to product leader?

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20Product: How the Best Teams Do Product Reviews | What Everyone Gets Wrong in Hiring Product Teams | Product Lessons Leading Facebook App Monetisation Team to Billions in Revenue with Maria Angelidou, CPO @ Personio

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Speaking of P&Ls, one of the biggest needle movers on Facebook's P&L was in particular the ads monetization engine around video, something that you were so central to. Can you take me to that story? How did that come to be, just so I have some context there?

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20Product: How the Best Teams Do Product Reviews | What Everyone Gets Wrong in Hiring Product Teams | Product Lessons Leading Facebook App Monetisation Team to Billions in Revenue with Maria Angelidou, CPO @ Personio

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And today, Maria is the chief product and technology officer at the European unicorn Personio. But before we dive in, this episode is brought to you by Pendo, the only all-in-one product experience platform for any type of application. Pendo helps you get your users to do what you want them to do. With Pendo, you get everything from analytics, in-app

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20Product: How the Best Teams Do Product Reviews | What Everyone Gets Wrong in Hiring Product Teams | Product Lessons Leading Facebook App Monetisation Team to Billions in Revenue with Maria Angelidou, CPO @ Personio

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How do you prevent feature creep? Because it's really hard, year after year, like, you know, add nothing.

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20Product: How the Best Teams Do Product Reviews | What Everyone Gets Wrong in Hiring Product Teams | Product Lessons Leading Facebook App Monetisation Team to Billions in Revenue with Maria Angelidou, CPO @ Personio

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What do you think about product being science versus art? When you talk about kind of intuition there versus maybe more data centric decision making, it kind of makes me think of product versus science versus art. How do you think about that?

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20Product: How the Best Teams Do Product Reviews | What Everyone Gets Wrong in Hiring Product Teams | Product Lessons Leading Facebook App Monetisation Team to Billions in Revenue with Maria Angelidou, CPO @ Personio

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In product and decision making. When you think about speed versus quality and product, a lot of people, especially in the early stages, like speed's all that matters. Speed, speed, speed.

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20Product: How the Best Teams Do Product Reviews | What Everyone Gets Wrong in Hiring Product Teams | Product Lessons Leading Facebook App Monetisation Team to Billions in Revenue with Maria Angelidou, CPO @ Personio

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guidance, session replay, mobile features, feedback management, and roadmapping, all working together seamlessly. It's built specifically for creating exceptional product experiences, and it's trusted by more than 10,000 companies, including the world's largest community of product managers, Mind the Product. Want to see how Pendo can work for you?

The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch

20Product: How the Best Teams Do Product Reviews | What Everyone Gets Wrong in Hiring Product Teams | Product Lessons Leading Facebook App Monetisation Team to Billions in Revenue with Maria Angelidou, CPO @ Personio

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In teams that you've worked with before, which one has been the one to break down?