Hannah Smith
Appearances
The Knife: A True Crime Podcast
A Morning Run
According to Daroon, the police said they would post the report on their website to alert the neighborhood. But she didn't feel that this was good enough. After all, she lived in the neighborhood and she'd never heard of the website. Daroon has a significant following on social media.
The Knife: A True Crime Podcast
A Morning Run
And so the next day, when the police report still wasn't up online, Daroon decided to post the video that she recorded in the park of her attacker. This is the first part of that video. Daroon screams as a blurry figure darts through the woods. The video then cuts from the park to Daroon sitting on her front porch the following day, speaking directly to her followers.
The Knife: A True Crime Podcast
A Morning Run
After the second attack, Darun was asked to come into the police station and look through a series of photographs to identify the attacker.
The Knife: A True Crime Podcast
A Morning Run
Law enforcement was able to identify and charge Paul Youssef. We don't have any information about the other victim, as she was a minor at the time. Paul Youssef was arrested on September 28, 2021. Darun now had a name for her attacker, and while she waited to see what would happen to him, she tried to continue living her life.
The Knife: A True Crime Podcast
A Morning Run
You know, it's interesting to use this word successful and I know what you mean by it because he wasn't able to, you know, do what he planned to do, which when you were in that moment was very clear to you. Looking in his eyes, you knew what he wanted to do. It's still just like... he still attacked you. You know, you still had to go through that experience.
The Knife: A True Crime Podcast
A Morning Run
Something that's important to note, in Canada, you are not allowed to carry a weapon or any tool that is specifically for the purpose of self-defense, which would include pepper spray. It was difficult for Daroon to feel safe out in the world, even during the day. After all, she'd been attacked in a public park at 11 a.m.
The Knife: A True Crime Podcast
A Morning Run
She feared something like this would happen again, knowing her only recourse, if it ever did happen, would be to fight.
The Knife: A True Crime Podcast
A Morning Run
Daroon waited in anticipation to see what would happen to her attacker, Paul Youssef. The waiting, she said, was uncomfortable, but it was also not a new feeling for her. This experience flooded her with memories from a different incident that happened when she was a child.
The Knife: A True Crime Podcast
A Morning Run
Darun was clear that although her sixth grade teacher, Greg Talenko, had not physically abused her, His actions were harmful. He was a teacher, someone in a trusted position of authority, and he'd used that power to manipulate her. At the time, Daroon didn't know the term grooming, but she does now, and that is exactly what Greg Talenko was doing.
The Knife: A True Crime Podcast
A Morning Run
Darun listened to her instincts and distanced herself from Talenko, never telling anyone what happened. That is, until two years later, when she learned that she was not Talenko's only target.
The Knife: A True Crime Podcast
A Morning Run
In September of 2021, Darun and her family had just moved into a new home in Brampton, a city in the greater Toronto area. Darun was delighted to find out that she was in walking distance to Massey Park, which is a small park that sits in the middle of a heavily trafficked area but still feels remote due to the density of the trees. So she started to do her daily workouts at Massey Park.
The Knife: A True Crime Podcast
A Morning Run
Darun was in middle school, a time wrought with difficulties and insecurities for most of us. But still, she decided to speak out and lead the charge in bringing Greg Talenko's actions to light. Darun's younger sister was going into sixth grade the next year, and she did not want her to have the same experiences with Talenko.
The Knife: A True Crime Podcast
A Morning Run
As a result of Darun and others speaking out, in 2001, Greg Talenko was arrested and charged with sexual assault, invitation to sexual touching, sexual interference, and criminal harassment. He had been teaching at Cedar Drive Public School for 12 years at that point.
The Knife: A True Crime Podcast
A Morning Run
I asked Arun what she meant when she said she never got justice as a child. And what came to light was that she felt she missed out on the process. She wasn't considered a main victim in the case, which she understands. But as a result, her story wasn't part of the case, and she did not attend any of the hearings. She didn't get to see it.
The Knife: A True Crime Podcast
A Morning Run
She was just left to process what had happened to her alone. As a result of this, even years later, she explained that she still has questions and she never really got closure. And when she was attacked on September 15th, 2021 in Massey Park, suddenly this incident from middle school came back into her mind.
The Knife: A True Crime Podcast
A Morning Run
Daroon spoke up in middle school, and again as an adult after she was attacked in Massey Park, her motivation to warn others, to advocate for victims, and perhaps to make a big deal about something that is a big deal. Sometimes, though, you can do all the right things and still be let down.
The Knife: A True Crime Podcast
A Morning Run
When I first spoke with Daroon in the fall of 2024, she told me that she was still waiting to know the results of Paul Youssef's case. I decided to see what I could find out. So I called the Peel Regional Police, and then they directed me to the Davis Courthouse in Brampton.
The Knife: A True Crime Podcast
A Morning Run
We don't directly talk about this in the interview, but what happened was I was emailed the case documents the day before we recorded this interview with Darun. Thank you. Thank you.
The Knife: A True Crime Podcast
A Morning Run
Thank you. Thank you for watching! I don't know. I don't know.
The Knife: A True Crime Podcast
A Morning Run
So, you know, when is the first moment that you thought like something is wrong?
The Knife: A True Crime Podcast
A Morning Run
In September of 2021, Daroon had just moved into a new home with her kids and then husband. It was a nice, safe, family-friendly area of Toronto. And then on September 15th, she went for a jog at 11 a.m. in a park near her home and experienced something terrifying.
The Knife: A True Crime Podcast
A Morning Run
So because you say like, and you did this motion, which people can't see on the podcast, but you're saying that he was coming at you with his hands out in a clear way that like he was going for your throat.
The Knife: A True Crime Podcast
A Morning Run
We speak with Darun about her experience and the lasting impact of what happened to her, including a video of the incident that went viral. We will be back with you after the interview to give you some updates on Darun's story, which is still ongoing today. As a note, this conversation with Darun happened on October 14th, 2024. Let's get into the interview.
The Knife: A True Crime Podcast
A Morning Run
After Daroon was able to fight off this attacker, she somehow had the presence of mind to take out her phone and hit record, capturing him running into the woods. Then a man in the park who had heard her scream showed up and called the police. The following moments were a blur for Daroon as multiple police officers and her husband arrived at the park.
The Knife: A True Crime Podcast
A Morning Run
Let's start off with you telling us a little bit about yourself and your background.
The Knife: A True Crime Podcast
The Knife: Off Record – 102
this story contains adult content and language listener discretion is advised
The Knife: A True Crime Podcast
The Knife: Off Record – 102
Yeah, especially with, well, obviously DNA development and then the DNA testing. And you hear about like crimes being solved because of that.
The Knife: A True Crime Podcast
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Everyone discovered the difficulty of listening.
The Knife: A True Crime Podcast
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There's no easy way to wrap up this true story of someone in prison. Yeah.
The Knife: A True Crime Podcast
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Yeah, this is a huge part of the job. How do you get someone to agree to speak with you? I think it's really tricky. We do a lot of cold calling. You know, there's so many times where I will call someone on the phone who I don't know, who I've never spoken with before.
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and talk with them about the project that I'm doing and what my approach is and try to build that trust with them so that they will feel comfortable enough to give me their time and energy and talk to me about an experience they had that was probably a really bad experience. So even them revisiting that and telling me that takes a lot of trust.
The Knife: A True Crime Podcast
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So I think ultimately it's building trust and being authentic
The Knife: A True Crime Podcast
The Knife: Off Record – 102
Yeah, that's a really good guidepost because you need a compelling why for someone to care to talk to you because a lot of people have said, this comes at a cost for me. I'm going to have to revisit something that was horrible, so I need to know that there's a reason I'm doing it, which is totally fair.
The Knife: A True Crime Podcast
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I've interviewed someone in the past who I thought was a victim. And then over the course of speaking with him multiple times, it sort of became, I started to question, like, I don't think what you're telling me is true. I have court documents and, you know, I have all this research that shows what happened and it doesn't line up with what you're saying.
The Knife: A True Crime Podcast
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And now I'm wondering if you were like part of that. the crime in some way. So it can get a little bit tricky. And when you call someone out of the blue, Pasha, if you have like 15 seconds before they hang up on you and think you're like a spam caller, what words are you trying to get out quickly?
The Knife: A True Crime Podcast
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Okay, let's move on to Producers Cut, which is a segment where we let you peek behind the curtain of what it is like for us as producers on a true crime podcast and kind of give you an insider look to the conversations that we have with each other. You know, Paisa, the last question that we took from listeners about cold calling, it's really interesting because...
The Knife: A True Crime Podcast
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I think it leads right into the case that you first investigated before you had ever made a podcast or were a producer on a podcast or anything. You just took it upon yourself to investigate a case, which I think is a really interesting case. How did you find out about it?
The Knife: A True Crime Podcast
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Tell us a little bit about the case, what you knew at that time, I guess. Was that basically all that you knew?
The Knife: A True Crime Podcast
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Yeah, sometimes those conversations end up turning into an interview. Sometimes they don't. They just end up as being informative background conversations for a story we are researching. And then sometimes it means we can't turn the story into an interview episode. And that's okay, too.
The Knife: A True Crime Podcast
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Mm hmm. Did Jeremy's dad, Ronnie, think that that was a possibility as well? Did he mention that or no?
The Knife: A True Crime Podcast
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But you and I have been, and we'll get into our intros here in a second for people who don't know us, but we've been producing podcasts for a while together now. And one of the things that we've learned is that there are stories that you and I feel like
The Knife: A True Crime Podcast
The Knife: Off Record – 102
Did she tell you anything about Aaron in that meeting, like her relationship with Aaron? Like, who is Aaron Foster?
The Knife: A True Crime Podcast
The Knife: Off Record – 102
passionate about, we fall in love with, we think are important stories to tell that we, for a variety of reasons, have not been able to tell on a podcast. So we are going to bring you listeners those stories as well on the Knife Off-Record episodes. And we're excited to be able to, you know, tell you some stories that we find interesting and important.
The Knife: A True Crime Podcast
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It's just such an interesting thing to talk about with your friends. And I'm curious if that speaks to something about living in Sparta, Tennessee as a teenager. Did you get any clarity of like, why were they all wanting to leave and go to Florida? What was that fantasy or dream about?
The Knife: A True Crime Podcast
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Gotcha. And was there some kind of suspicion put on perhaps Aaron's parents because of this? Like unwillingness to discuss it or talk or collaborate?
The Knife: A True Crime Podcast
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It's good. I am excited to be here in studio.
The Knife: A True Crime Podcast
The Knife: Off Record – 102
These are going to be conversational episodes along with bringing listeners a true crime story. We are going to do a variety of things. We'll talk about conversations that you and I find important or intriguing as we produce a true crime podcast.
The Knife: A True Crime Podcast
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We'll sometimes answer listener questions, but it gives us an opportunity to invite listeners into the things that you and I talk about that we are fascinated by. This episode, this is our first The Knife Off-Record episode.
The Knife: A True Crime Podcast
The Knife: Off Record – 102
We are going to answer a few questions from listeners, and then we're going to get into a story that Pasha is going to tell us about a missing persons case that you are going to want to stick around for.
The Knife: A True Crime Podcast
The Knife: Off Record – 102
I mean, I can hardly believe it. We're recording our very first episode of The Knife Off Record, which we also understand is technically there's a record of it because we are recording it.
The Knife: A True Crime Podcast
The Knife: Off Record – 102
So I'm Hannah Smith, and I've been working in podcasting since 2017. Like many, many people, listened to the first season of Serial when it came out and really was just blown away. I have always liked writing and storytelling, and I remember just feeling so amazed that you could tell stories a story, a true story, a crime story in this format, in this way.
The Knife: A True Crime Podcast
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So the thing that I want to talk about is this book that I actually read recently. last year. I think it came out in 2024. I actually listened to it. It's a good book to listen to. And it's called Sociopath, a Memoir by Patrick Gagne. I think that's how you say her name. And it was an easy listen, super fascinating, easy to get through. I have thought about this book so many times since I read it.
The Knife: A True Crime Podcast
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I love to read, but like a lot of times I read a book, I'll think about it a little bit. This book I've thought about so often. And part of it is the work that we do in true crime, but I cannot recommend it enough. It is written by a sociopath. So Patrick, she's a clinical psychologist with a PhD and also a diagnosed sociopath. Wow. The memoir is just her life story.
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And I just felt like I want to try to tell stories like that. I want to do something like that. So I started working in podcasting. I worked on a bunch of different shows in different genres, editing, producing, writing. And then in 2020, I got a job lead producing, hosting, and writing a true crime podcast called The Opportunist.
The Knife: A True Crime Podcast
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It helped me understand sociopaths or what it would mean to be a sociopath so much more. I still don't understand it. It's very difficult to really understand what that would be like because it's such a different experience than what I experience. But sociopath is a word that's thrown around so often, right, in true crime. So-and-so is a sociopath. So-and-so is a sociopath.
The Knife: A True Crime Podcast
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We've had conversations around this of like, how do we use this word? Maybe let's not try to use it unless someone has actually been diagnosed because we actually don't know if they are or they aren't. I want there to be so much more research done about sociopaths, and I suspect there will be, but there really hasn't been a ton. So Patrick talks in this book about her upbringing.
The Knife: A True Crime Podcast
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She grew up in a loving, healthy family who was well-resourced. She went to really good schools, did really well in schools, really smart. And had parents who, like, listened to her and really tried to help her. Like, she had a really good upbringing. You know, I think sometimes there's misconceptions of someone's a sociopath because they had this horrible thing happen to them or whatnot.
The Knife: A True Crime Podcast
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Like, it's this result of trauma. Right. And... Her whole sort of—the thing that she poses in the book is that it's not. It is more like a neurodivergency. And she walks through being a young kid and watching her mom, like— try to teach her and her sister like life lessons and teach them empathy. And she remembers from a young age feeling like she really did not get it. She didn't understand.
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She could observe people around her understanding this. And from a young age was very clear that she was different. And so started to feel really isolated and like no one understood her. And when she was honest about her feelings or thoughts,
The Knife: A True Crime Podcast
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She often got the response from her parent, teacher, classmates, that there was something wrong with the way that she was thinking and feeling and interacting with the world. So she talks about that feeling of being perceived as problematic, even from a very young age, sort of played with and intensified some of the emotions.
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behavioral problems that she then went on to display for much of her life. I mean, she talks about wanting to cause other people pain as a release from these feelings that she's having or lack of feelings or like distance.
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I know. Yeah. It's so hard to wrap my mind around, which is why I love this book, because some of the concepts, they're so abstract. Okay, sociopaths don't feel empathy. They don't feel learned emotions. A lot of our emotions are learned emotions like empathy. She still feels happy, sad, you know, emotions that you're born with. But like, what does that actually look like in a life?
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How does that play out? And so she... through the book, takes the reader on a journey where she's talking about this struggle, where she wants to be a good person. She wants to be a contributing member of society. She wants to get married and have children and all of these things.
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We covered crimes of opportunity, mostly fraud, as well as some cults. And even though I was a true crime fan before that, it was my first time working on a true crime podcast. And I fell in love with true crime all over again from this different perspective of what it's like to be on the other side of it, to make a podcast like this. I found out that I love making this type of podcast.
The Knife: A True Crime Podcast
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But it's so difficult for her because she sees the world and experiences the world so completely differently from the people around her. I think it's such a fascinating read. Since I've read it, I think about it so often when consuming other true crime podcasts or books or documentaries. I'm always like, is that person a sociopath? And then it kind of gives you this different lens.
The Knife: A True Crime Podcast
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It doesn't justify anything that someone is doing, especially when they're committing crimes or hurting other people. But I'll wrap it up by saying, you know, Patrick says in the book that she wrote this book for other sociopaths. Because from her perspective, and she became a PhD and studied this because she was looking for answers to understand herself. And there were none.
The Knife: A True Crime Podcast
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The answer was like, well, sociopaths should be in prison. And she's like, so that's the only option for my life? I don't believe that. And so she wrote this sort of like for other sociopaths to offer them ideas about how you could exist in a different kind of way.
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And if you think about it, if we all thought about it or approached it as this is a neurodivergency, how would we as a society approach? try to help integrate those people into society in a healthy way, as opposed to just not understanding them, isolating them. Maybe we would have fewer serial killers, you know, I don't know. It's interesting to think about. Yeah.
The Knife: A True Crime Podcast
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Yeah, it's like a purpose for her. And it's really interesting the way she talks about emotions and feeling. And it's so hard to sort of understand that because she is married now, but like she doesn't feel love in the same way that non-sociopaths feel love. But that doesn't mean she doesn't care about her husband.
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I love researching stories. I love speaking and interviewing people who were there, who lived it. I knew that this is what I wanted to do. So I kept doing it. I did it for three years and was thrilled to do it. And if you've never heard of the show, no worries. You're here now, and I'm so glad that you're here with us.
The Knife: A True Crime Podcast
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I love that. That sounds really good. I also love shows that take you through a case or a trial in detail.
The Knife: A True Crime Podcast
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Well, that concludes our first episode of The Knife Off Record. Thanks for listening. We'll be back next week.
The Knife: A True Crime Podcast
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This has been an Exactly Right production. Hosted and produced by me, Hannah Smith. And me, Patia Eaton. Our producers are Tom Breyfogle and Alexa Samorosi. This episode was mixed by Tom Breyfogle. Our associate producer is Christina Chamberlain. Our theme music is by Birds in the Airport. Artwork by Vanessa Lilac. Executive produced by Karen Kilgariff, Georgia Hardstark, and Danielle Kramer.
The Knife: A True Crime Podcast
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If you did hear the show and were a fan, then I have to tell you that I was by no means the only person that made that show. There were a lot of great people that made that happen. And one of those great people is sitting here with me today.
The Knife: A True Crime Podcast
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pasha eaton so if you were a fan of the show you should know her as well because pasha came and worked on the show from season two on and we just immediately became friends and found out that we have a lot in common as far as the stories that we are interested in and the way that we want to tell them long ago we dreamed about doing a new show a different show together so i'll throw it over to you now pasha tell us a
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It's all here for you to hear. Keep a record of. Yeah.
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Especially probably coming from television, where there's so much that goes into making something.
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You're going to tell the story later about this case that you ended up doing a lot of research into and reporting on. I'm really excited for that. even though you should have gotten the job in the beginning, you know, it gave you time to look into this case.
The Knife: A True Crime Podcast
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Another thing we're excited about is hearing from you, the listener. We would love to talk to you about past episodes and answer any questions you had about it or provide case updates if we have them. So you can write to us at thenife at exactlyrightmedia.com, and we can't wait to hear from you.
The Knife: A True Crime Podcast
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The first question we're going to answer today has to do with last week's episode, our interview with Darun Henry. The question is, how did you first come across Darun's story and how did you go about reaching out to her? Pesha, do you want to take this one?
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Don't we just need a break? Yes. We take turns so that one of us can always reach out to sources. This is what friends are for. That's right. And Daroon was really gracious when he reached out. And we are so glad that she came on the podcast.
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Great question. Great question. I find myself drawn to... Stories that are less straightforward. I'm less interested in like a crime of passion where someone like murdered someone else without forethought. I love to dig into a story where there are a lot of layers. It's one of the reasons I love cult stories. I feel really passionate about telling cult stories.
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Yeah, I actually just talked to someone yesterday and I found the timing appropriate since I knew we were coming in to record today. I was like, yes, I got a hold of him. I've been trying to call him. We got to talk to this guy. He is intimately connected to the story that we're researching.
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I really love interviewing people who have been a part of a cult and left a cult. I just think that those stories are so complicated and there are so many layers. There's so much psychology involved as well. You know, I find myself drawn to like really complex, difficult to understand crimes, really. Like, why did someone do it?
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If the answer is not clear, then I'm like, okay, let's dig in and try to figure out why. Oftentimes, there's not like an easy answer, right? But I remember when we were on The Opportunist, we would try to find cases where the motivation was not always money. And it was so hard.
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When you're just researching stories all the time and having to tell stories all the time, you start to see all these patterns. And it was also because we were making stories that were within a lens, right? They had to be crimes of opportunity. There was a lot of fraud that we covered. and cults and scams. And a lot of times people are motivated by money.
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So we were always like looking for stories where the motivation was not money and was different or more unclear. And I think that with cult stories, money is oftentimes very much a factor, but there's also this factor of just like psychological control that sometimes people want to wield over other people. So that's a long answer, but I am really interested in scams and cults particularly.
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And this type of thing happens to us all the time where you get a hold of someone, they start talking to you and you're just like, oh, yes, like everything you're saying is gold. I'm so thrilled that you're talking to me. And then they get to the end and they're like, but I don't want to do an interview. And also don't use my name. This is off the record.
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Yeah, I totally agree. You've really hit on something that we think about a lot when we're choosing a story. I think it's such a great point when it comes to missing persons cases because there is that hope. And as you'll talk about later too, just that like need for answers, that it's hard to not have those answers for loved ones who have someone go missing, right?
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And then it makes me think of for stories that involve victims of cults or like a romance scam or something like that. I always find great value in speaking to someone and letting them tell their story and trying to understand that because there's so much victim blaming that happens, right? People are oftentimes considered to be dumb or whatever.
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And it's just that's not been the case from what I've found talking with so many people. I like the chance to try to communicate that to listeners and understand the complexities of these type of situations and how it could happen to anyone. And that feels meaningful to me. Yeah, absolutely. Okay. The next question, true crime often remains open-ended with cases unresolved or unsolved.
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Do you like that aspect of it or is it frustrating?