Hal Puthoff
Appearances
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2314 - Hal Puthoff
So that's sort of the position that we kind of have been in to see these craft that we get access to either through crashes or, quote, donations. And, you know, it's really mysterious. But nonetheless, we should do our best. And these days, because of the development of quantum technology, technologies and so on. We have better tools.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2314 - Hal Puthoff
We have AI on our side to move fast through some calculations and stuff. So I think this is the time where disclosure is going to happen and relatively soon.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2314 - Hal Puthoff
In fact, I remember when I was involved in the remote viewing program, one of my sons was attending a grammar school. And one day, another father's kid came over to play with him. And when the other professor actually at Stanford came over and said, I brought my kid over to play with you, but his last name is Putoff. Are you associated with that Putoff at SRI and that remote viewing?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2314 - Hal Puthoff
I said, yeah, yeah, yeah, I am. And he said, okay, my son's not going to come over and play with you. Oh, boy. So you run into that. What a fool. You run into that. But I don't know.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2314 - Hal Puthoff
Tell me, Al, what the heck are you doing? So anyway, that's what we used to run into. Closed-mindedness. But that shows how things have changed. In general, when we talk about the remote viewing aspects, people just say, okay, I accept that. Now, how can we apply it? And we talk about technologies associated with – Crash retrievals, okay, fine, but, you know, what can we learn from that?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2314 - Hal Puthoff
How can we apply it? So, I mean, it's a different world we're in now, and I'm really excited about it. And, you know, I'm not going to stop.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2314 - Hal Puthoff
Certainly welcome, and I appreciate the fact that you're willing to be pursuing these frontier areas and bringing them to a large audience. That's a real gift. I really appreciate that.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2314 - Hal Puthoff
Thank you. It was a real pleasure. Pleasure for me, too. All right.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2314 - Hal Puthoff
So he gave this whole list of words. Okay, fine. So he wrote them all down, sent them off. Pretty soon the entire law enforcement apparatus of the country landed on us and said, how did you get this information? This is highly classified project titles. Do you have a source inside? No, we were just doing this experiment. That's what he got.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2314 - Hal Puthoff
graduate-level textbook, Fundamentals of Quantum Electronics, published in English, French, Russian, and Chinese. So I was on a cool roll just doing the normal physics kinds of things. But interestingly enough, once I was there writing a graduate-level textbook, I realized, you know, there's something I don't know. And that is, what about consciousness? What about living things?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2314 - Hal Puthoff
And so eventually, 20 years later, you can find the paper that was published by the CIA about what a deal this was. And so anyway, at that time, we were at a point we were about ready to get the next year's contract. And we had a deputy director, John McMahon, said, OK, well, let's not waste it on our sides, for God's sake. Do a Soviet side. And so they gave us coordinates of a Soviet site.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2314 - Hal Puthoff
It turned out to be an R&D facility at Semipalatinsk in the Soviet Union. And so we targeted Price on that. He turned out to be a really good remote viewer along with Ingo Swann. And he described this giant crane that rolled over the top of a building. And I mean, it sounded like science fiction. I've got some examples here of the drawings of that.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2314 - Hal Puthoff
And so it turned out that from satellite imagery, what he drew was correct. And so that finally started, okay, this stuff is real. It can be used. Let's go to work with it. So that's what started the whole, you might say, espionage-oriented SRI program on remote viewing. It went through. I don't know, like 23 years or so.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2314 - Hal Puthoff
There are really basically two levels of response. For example, some of the early work when we went to brief, we had 10 or 12 people and we're talking about the work. Pretty soon a guy in the back of the room jumps up and he says, I know what this is. This is some kind of PSYOP test of our gullibility. And I want you to know whoever's putting this out, I'm not buying it.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2314 - Hal Puthoff
And he stormed out of the room. So that was one response. But there's a second response we got, which turned out to be interesting. At a certain point after we had done a number of years of successful work in doing the remote viewing, we had to keep briefing higher and higher, as you can imagine.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2314 - Hal Puthoff
I hated briefing higher because if you brief a high-level guy and he says, oh, come on, this is nonsense, this is BS, that's the end of your programs. So I got it up to a point where, for example, I briefed Bill Casey, who was director of CIA under Reagan, and we had 45 minutes with him. And so I went through stuff like I've been describing for 45 minutes.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2314 - Hal Puthoff
He got so entranced with it that he dismissed the rest of his afternoon calendar, and we spent five hours briefing him on that. So there was this funny thing where a certain level of people would just, ugh, this can't be. And then really high-level people seemed to be more open to it.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2314 - Hal Puthoff
I mean is it still just atoms and molecules all the way down? We just don't know about it? Or are there some additional fields or whatever? So it turned out I came across some publications by a polygraph expert who taught polygraph to the CIA and FBI and so on. And one day on a lark, he connected his polygraph up to his plants.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2314 - Hal Puthoff
So actually we came up with a hypothesis and that is, okay, people who make it to the top of the food chain might be people who at some level inside themselves are, you know, they're always making decisions based on insufficient information and they end up making the right decision. That's how they got to where they are. So maybe this is some aspect that's at least at the unconscious level that
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2314 - Hal Puthoff
happening all the time. Well, that finally got put to a test because there were some parapsychologists who did some experiments with a meeting of CEOs of, I think 67 CEOs of major corporations, and had them try to guess the numbers that were going to be generated on the computer the next day. And so they did that. And it turned out that those who scored quite positively, significantly so,
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2314 - Hal Puthoff
When we interviewed them, it turned out they were the people who had the businesses that were really doing well. And the people who scored poorly had businesses that were kind of failing. So these investigators would ask them, well, are you using ESP or something? Do you have some glint of the future? He said, no, no, no, no, I don't believe any of that nonsense. But
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2314 - Hal Puthoff
I realize that when I trust my gut instinct, I'm usually right. So anyway, that sort of leads to the idea that this is a broadly available phenomenon.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2314 - Hal Puthoff
I think your second interpretation is the correct one. Because probably... When you're out in the jungle and there's a tiger coming down the trail that you don't know about quite, it would be a thing that could really help you exist and survive.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2314 - Hal Puthoff
But once we get into language and technology and so on, that sort of – nonetheless, we found – I'll tell you what was the most mind-boggling thing in the whole program was the following. We had a few people who did really well. So, of course, CIA wanted to know, well, we'd like to find people in CIA who could do this. So give us a full medical roundup of these people.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2314 - Hal Puthoff
So we get a full medical including seven-layer brain scans. And they came back and said, well, these are just normal people. So, well, maybe it's psychological or neurological or whatever. So they did all those experiments. And they said, these are just normal people. So we wondered, well, does that mean that normal people could do this even if they didn't know about it?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2314 - Hal Puthoff
So about that time, we said, okay, well, let's just bring in some people from SRI labs who never thought about ESP, who never thought about any of this stuff. So I remember we had a woman, Hella Hammond, and we asked her to come volunteer for an experiment. She said, what kind of experiment? I said, well, it's sort of like an ESP experiment. She said, give me a break.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2314 - Hal Puthoff
I don't believe in that stuff. I said, okay, but do it anyway. And so one of the first experiments we did with her – and we have a wonderful diagram of what she did – We sent somebody out by our usual random protocol to an overpass over a freeway that's all fenced in with a very interesting structure.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2314 - Hal Puthoff
And he saw signals coming out that looked like what you see out of people. And then he decided to threaten the plant like he would a person. And he got a big response. And so he then went on to connect up a couple of plants to polygraphs. And he would find that if he affected one, the other one would respond.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2314 - Hal Puthoff
And she made a drawing of all of that and said, you know, there's this kind of trough up in the air, but it's got holes in it so it couldn't carry water. There's something going by really fast. I mean, she really nailed the place.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2314 - Hal Puthoff
And so we got the idea, and that was the biggest discovery in this whole thing, was that apparently, as with, say, athletic ability or musical ability, there's a bell curve. And you got superstars at one end, you got duds at the other, but to some degree, anybody could do it. So that had a lot of outcome later on in the program when finally...
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2314 - Hal Puthoff
To give an example of a real-world result, a Soviet plane went down somewhere in Africa. That's all we knew. Somewhere in Africa, a plane went down. So Stansfield Turner, who was Carter's CIA director, knew about our remote viewing program. And so he said, well, you've got these, quote, remote viewers are supposed to be so good. Why don't they find the plane for you?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2314 - Hal Puthoff
So, in fact, we had a remote viewer at our lab, and at that time we were working with Wright-Patterson Air Force Base Foreign Technology Division. They had a remote viewer. So we targeted these two remote viewers. All they knew was the plane went down somewhere in Africa, hundreds of thousands of square miles.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2314 - Hal Puthoff
And to make a long story short, they described how it looked and put an X on the map that was three miles from where the plane landed. We were told that would never be revealed to the public. But it turned out that after Carter got out of office, he was giving a speech in Georgia someplace. And somebody said, well, anything happen while you're present that was really strange? He said,
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2314 - Hal Puthoff
And, oh, yeah, the Soviet plane went down in Africa. It was full of electronics. And we wanted to get it. And nobody knew where it was. And satellites couldn't find it because of all the vegetation. But we had some remote viewers, so-called. And they pinpointed where it was. And we went in and got it before the Russians could find it.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2314 - Hal Puthoff
So, I mean, the real-world consequences came out of this stuff.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2314 - Hal Puthoff
That was a breach of security, but a president can— They're allowed to do that? They're allowed to do that.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2314 - Hal Puthoff
So I thought, okay, well, maybe this is some new fields that we don't include in our physics. So I came up with what, for me, was just a pure physics experiment. I was going to grow some algae culture, split it up, put half of it in a laser-linked site far away. And zap the local culture and see if it responded. And I can measure velocity propagation and so on.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2314 - Hal Puthoff
Well, we pretty much handle the skeptical problem. And let me give you an example. I mean, as we're churning out these results, as you can imagine, anybody who didn't have direct knowledge of this would be skeptical, and rightly so, by the way. I mean, I was skeptical every inch along the way as we plowed our way into this stuff. So one day, a guy shows up from CIA and says, OK,
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2314 - Hal Puthoff
I'm here to find out what the fraud is. I'm sure this is absolute nonsense. So he said, okay, fine. So show me one of your experiments. So we put him in the lab with an interviewer and a remote viewer. And in this case, I'm sent out someplace for 30 minutes. And it turns out that the remote viewer described it really well. And he said, well... You probably told them where you're going to go.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2314 - Hal Puthoff
Let's do another experiment and I'm going to go and we'll go in my car because you might have had a transmitter in your car transmitting where you're going. So I'm going to pick the site. So we do another experiment, get a great result. So finally he says, well, I got to figure out what's wrong with this. So my colleague, Russell Targ, and I sat down.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2314 - Hal Puthoff
This guy's a hard case, but we got the bell curve. Who knows? Maybe somewhere in the middle of the bell curve. So he comes in the next day, and we say, okay, today you're going to be the remote viewer. And he said, give me a break. I don't believe in this BS. He said much more strongly than that, actually. And I said, no, no, okay, well, just try it.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2314 - Hal Puthoff
You'll see we're not stressing him out and whatever, whatever, whatever. And he says, okay. And... When you go to your place, I want you to take pictures and do a recording. And when you come back, show me your stuff before I show you mine. Okay, fine. Well, it turned out we went to a playground with a merry-go-round.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2314 - Hal Puthoff
Meanwhile, back in the lab, he's drawing a picture of a playground with a merry-go-round. And he sees the results and he says, okay. You've convinced me. So it was that kind of thing that would push him over. Yeah, there's an example. Now, he misinterpreted what it was. He thought maybe it was a cupola or whatever. But anyway, that's his drawing on the right and that's where we were on the left.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2314 - Hal Puthoff
And so he said, so he went back to CIA and said, okay, this stuff really works. And he became one of their star remote viewers over the years.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2314 - Hal Puthoff
There is a method and it's different from what you might think. You might think you would say to somebody, okay, we've got somebody to decide, kind of imagine where they are and see what it looks like and tell us what you find and all that kind of stuff. They're usually wrong when they do that because their imagination comes into play and they make up something or whatever.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2314 - Hal Puthoff
But what we found out in the research, it took years and a lot of trials, was that you get a visceral response to a site. It's not that you necessarily get an image. So, in fact, we told them, you know, if you get an image, just put it down the right-hand side of the paper because it's probably wrong. Instead, just kind of put down your feelings as you get into the site.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2314 - Hal Puthoff
So I sent that off to this polygraph guy. Cleve Baxter is his name. And so he said, well, that would be a cool experiment. Well, here's one of these things where your life takes a left-hand turn totally at random. He goes to a cocktail party in New York City. And there he runs into Ingo Swann, who turned out to be so-called psychic, famous artist, but fellow that did remote viewings, so-called.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2314 - Hal Puthoff
If it's like water, they might do waves or if it's a mountain peak, they might, as Jacques described in one of your previous broadcasts, a mountain peak and they just feel like drawing something like that. Bit by bit, the process is very much a visceral feeling process.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2314 - Hal Puthoff
And so the training procedure has them sitting with pads of paper and just making sketches and drawings and not trying to interpret what it is. And also being very not in a rush about it.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2314 - Hal Puthoff
It's sort of like you've got a door and you drill a hole through and then drill another hole through and another hole through and then finally the door crumbles and then you've got a pretty good feeling for what the sign is. So the process that we use to train people involves this multi-stage process where they're to go by feelings, colors, flashes of things.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2314 - Hal Puthoff
You see a flash of piece of metal, don't try to turn it into a car or a bicycle or whatever. So it was a whole training procedure that we developed. And eventually when we briefed the assistant chief of staff for intelligence, assistant director of intelligence for the Army, They said, okay, well, then we need to have our people get involved in learning how to do this.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2314 - Hal Puthoff
And so they sent Army intelligence officers. They picked out a bunch of them and said, hey, you've just volunteered to become a psychic spy. And they said, well, okay. And they sent them out to SRI, and we ran them through this step-by-step training procedure. And they learned to do really, really well.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2314 - Hal Puthoff
I mean, Joel McMoneagle, who – anyone who follows the literature is known to be really an excellent remote viewer. And so – To give you an example, one time he said, I mean, we trained them, and so they learned to do really well. We set up a whole program. And he said, okay, there's this site in the Soviet Union, and they're making this unbelievably giant submarine.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2314 - Hal Puthoff
And it's made out of titanium or something. I mean, it's bigger than any submarine that anybody's ever heard of. And it's strange because the missile silos are on the top rather than along the sides and so on. He gave this whole description. Of course, we had to – at that time, we were briefing all the way up to National Security Council. So they looked at this. This is nonsense.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2314 - Hal Puthoff
But about a month later, out rolls this unbelievably giant submarine, the Typhoon-class submarine, the largest submarine ever made. Indeed, there are his sketches and a lot of description that went along with his sketches. Wow. And there's a submarine on the right. And so finally the people of the National Security Council said, okay, we better start taking this seriously.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2314 - Hal Puthoff
So to make a long story short, he eventually, Joe McMoneagle, got a National Merit Award for over $200,000. Great viewings he did for CIA, National Security Council, FBI. I mean, you name it. So anyway, they grew into a whole industry.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2314 - Hal Puthoff
And so he invited him over to his lab and said, see if he could affect the plants and so on. While he was there, he saw my write-up about the experiment I proposed, which for me is just a pure physics experiment. And so he then wrote me a letter and said, well, if you're interested in the borderline between animate and inanimate physics, why deal with algae culture? They can't tell you anything.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2314 - Hal Puthoff
Is that a fair assessment? That's a fair assessment. I mean, when we, as physicists, we hate to say, oh, don't have a clue. So, well, we now know there's so-called quantum entanglement, which is that things seem to be connected at a quantum level across great distances. And so the easy answer is, well, it must be quantum entanglement. But, you know, that's just words.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2314 - Hal Puthoff
It doesn't really tell us how it works. But to give you an example, we wondered how far you could go. So he did an experiment, again, with Ingo Swann, who was such a really top-level remote viewer, to view Jupiter, planet Jupiter, before the flyby. before the NASA flyby. And so he did. And he described Jupiter the way anybody might, you know, red spot and all that kind of stuff.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2314 - Hal Puthoff
But he said, but there's a thin ring around Jupiter. I wonder if I went to Saturn by mistake, but I really see a ring around Jupiter. And nobody knew about any ring around Jupiter. Carl Sagan happened to come by in the lab and said, oh, what do you think of this? We got this result. He said, ring around Jupiter, that's nonsense. There's no...
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2314 - Hal Puthoff
But when the NASA flyby finally got there, it turned out there was a ring, a small ring around Jupiter. And so we got that in publication in a book we wrote about all this stuff before it was known in the scientific community. So that's what we find out, that apparently even distances is not a big deal. The other thing we wondered, I can tell you what it isn't. We thought maybe it was brainwaves.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2314 - Hal Puthoff
The Russians came up with an idea. Well, brainwaves, low frequency, long wavelength, they can seemingly get through some aspects of the environment.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2314 - Hal Puthoff
So we came up with a series of experiments, and one of them was, okay, let's put our remote viewers on submarines, take them into the depths of the ocean, because it turns out seawater is highly conductive, and so even at low frequencies, even at brainwave frequencies, it would be a complete shield for that.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2314 - Hal Puthoff
So we piggybacked on somebody else's experiments, Stephen Schwartz's experiments using remover to go find archaeological wrecks and shipwrecks and so on, which turned out to eventually be a successful experiment. But anyway, we got to do two experiments. We got pristine results, even with them under there, under the ocean water. So we know it's not ordinary electromagnetic functioning.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2314 - Hal Puthoff
So we can strike one thing off the list, not that we know what to put on the list in its place, other than it's got to be some new field, some quantum aspect that we don't understand yet.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2314 - Hal Puthoff
But we could repeat it. I'll give you another example of that. The skepticism that we got – and by the way, I can't blame them. We had some psychologists at SRI and they said, you've got that stupid ESP experiment stuff going on and this is going to ruin our reputation. People think that we're a nonsense place and so it's hurting our reputation.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2314 - Hal Puthoff
You should be dealing with somebody like me. I mean, I couldn't care less about dealing with, quote, a psychic or whatever. But attached to his letter, he had a big report that had been generated at City College in New York saying, We'd done some experiments where he would raise and lower the temperatures of sensitive temperature measuring devices across the lab.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2314 - Hal Puthoff
Of course, they didn't know it was a highly classified CIA program. So anyway – So our director said, well, what do you think? I mean, how would you know if this is false or whatever? And he said, look, make a list of all experiments, places that have been investigated, gone to as targets, and then give us the transcripts that were generated for those viewings. And...
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2314 - Hal Puthoff
Don't tell us which ones go with which ones. And we'll try to rank them for each place. And so they did that. Much to their chagrin, seven of the nine were first place matches in a nine experiment series. Give you another example of – and by the way, I can't complain about the skepticism. I mean even as we're doing all this, we haven't lost our skepticism about how could this be.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2314 - Hal Puthoff
But we finally – we got into a spot where the only thing that was secret about this program was that it was secret. People heard that we had these people coming in and doing experiments, but we weren't publishing anything. So I went to the CIA contract monitor and said, you know, you've got to let us publish something because the only thing secret about this project is there's a secret project.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2314 - Hal Puthoff
And that's reasonable to think that way. And so in this case where we got permission to publish something. Since we're engineers, Russell Targ, my colleague, and I are engineers and physicists, we wrote it up for the proceedings of the IEEE, Institute of Electrical and Electronics Engineers. This is an engineering journal where we had published technical papers.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2314 - Hal Puthoff
So I said, well, we have a better chance there. Sent it off to them. The editor was head of communications at Bell Labs. And he comes back and says, well, I don't know. And we said, why, are you getting bad reviews? And he says, well, actually, I'm getting good reviews.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2314 - Hal Puthoff
But one really heavy hitter just gave me a one-sentence review saying, this is the kind of thing I wouldn't believe in even if it were true. What does that mean? So anyway, we said, look, I understand your problem. Look, let us come and present this stuff to your engineers. If they throw tomatoes, okay, don't publish our paper. But if they like it, then publish it.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2314 - Hal Puthoff
So we went to Bell Labs, presented our data. The engineers were all excited, trying to figure out what the mechanism could be and so on. So we figured we were home free. So then we pull out our trump card, as always, which is, okay, look. Do your own experiments at Bell Labs. Pick people from your engineers. Pick people from your offices to make up lists of targets.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2314 - Hal Puthoff
Pick people here to be your blind match group to see if they can match them up. And if you get results like we got, then publish it. If you don't, don't, he said. Okay, that's fair. So it turns out he did the whole thing, got the same kind of results we got. Our paper got published, 1976 Proceedings of the IEEE.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2314 - Hal Puthoff
And so I read that and I said, well, that's pretty interesting. So just in a lark, by this time I'd headed over to Stanford Research Institute to do my laser work. So anyway, I invited him for a weekend just to see what else he could do. And of course, I talked to all my physics colleagues and said, oh my God, these guys are all frauds and charlatans. You better know what you're doing.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2314 - Hal Puthoff
And so that suddenly got other people saying, okay, well, maybe there really is something to this. So it turns out that... For those who follow the field know that Robert John and Brenda Dunn, Robert John was head of engineering at Princeton. He had a student who wanted to do these kind of experiments, and he thought it was nonsense. But they came out and heard our briefing, and he went back.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2314 - Hal Puthoff
Long story short, he set up a 20-year program there. completely replicating our remote viewing work and also doing effects on random number generators that were quantum driven. And so the so-called PEAR lab, Princeton Engineering Anomalies Research Lab, replicated all of our work. And so pretty soon it's all over the place.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2314 - Hal Puthoff
So, by the way, at the end of the sort of Cold War there where there was a detente, some of our remote viewers went over to Russia to talk to their remote viewers and they traded war stories. They lived through the same kind of thing. So there it is.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2314 - Hal Puthoff
That could have happened. I mean, it was really, you know, the tiniest flip of a coin that that happened. So what that means is, for me personally, is that even though I had no interest in all that kind of stuff, this totally random event happened. And then once I built up a reputation for being willing to take on things that are impossible...
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2314 - Hal Puthoff
Then that's why when the UAP, the UFO issue kind of rose up again, who are you going to call? Al Putoff. I get my call.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2314 - Hal Puthoff
Well, there was an early introduction in 2004. Well, maybe a little earlier in the 90s, I was doing work for Robert Bigelow at Bigelow Aerospace. And in addition to his aerospace stuff, he put two units circling the Earth, and he made the – module that got attached to the space station and all that kind of stuff. But he was also very much interested in UFOs and that kind of thing.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2314 - Hal Puthoff
And so I was involved with him. And around that time, I had gotten a call from somebody I knew in Washington, D.C., head of a think tank, I can't name him, but he said, I need you to come to Washington to be part of a little project, a little briefing. And I said, no, I don't have the time right now. I'm just too busy.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2314 - Hal Puthoff
He says, look, come and it will be the most important meeting you've ever had in your life. Well, since I had him calibrated because I had done other work with him for the Navy and so on, I said, okay, I'll come. So I showed up there, and I saw people, some of whom I knew, including my ex-contract monitor from CIA, people from DIA, a lot of military people and so on.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2314 - Hal Puthoff
Well, it turns out that I had a great experiment for him because we had an experiment set up at Stanford that was a very sensitive quantum chip inside of electrical shielding, inside of magnetic shielding, inside of superconducting shielding. Completely acoustically isolated from the environment. No way anything on the outside could affect that little chip.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2314 - Hal Puthoff
So he sat us all down and said, okay, here's the deal. Here's why I've invited you all here. Let's just say, he says, that the United States, Russia, and China have obtained... E.T. craft that have crashed and we have proof of that. Bodies that aren't human And so the question is, can this be released to the public? What effect would it have?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2314 - Hal Puthoff
So I and the other people, I found out by talking to him later, we thought, oh, this is cool. I mean, maybe we can get some kind of disclosure here. And so he said, here's what we're going to do. We're going to make up a list of what would be affected in the culture with this kind of a disclosure.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2314 - Hal Puthoff
And by the way, at this point, we still didn't know, is he saying that that's true stuff or is this a hypothetical? Anyway, make a list. So we came up with a long list, like, I don't know, 60 items or something. You say, oh, well, stock market might be affected. Religions might be affected. You know, whatever. Government. Government affected. Policies be affected.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2314 - Hal Puthoff
You know, politics would certainly be affected. And then for each item, we had to go give it a score from plus nine to minus nine as to how intense the effect would be and whether it's positive or negative. So we broke up into groups and our group had our list of eight or so. So we went down our list and it turned out that we ended up getting net negative numbers.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2314 - Hal Puthoff
Yeah, well, it just seems like that's been my thing in life, is get involved in the crazy stuff no matter where it comes from.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2314 - Hal Puthoff
And let me tell you why you can get negative numbers. One of the things down toward the bottom of the list, and we really got into the weeds was, well, suppose materials from a crash retrieval of a non-human craft was given to Corporation A, but Corporation B didn't get any samples. And then years later, Corporation A is making lots of money based on what they got.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2314 - Hal Puthoff
Meanwhile, Corporation B has gone bankrupt. And then they find out they were excluded. Well, they're going to end up suing the corporations, suing the government. I mean, it really gets gnarly when you get into the weeds and into the details. As it turns out, with our group of eight or so, we said, you know, we get a negative number. Well, it turned out that all the groups got negative numbers.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2314 - Hal Puthoff
So the outcome of that exercise was, if you're thinking about disclosure, forget it.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2314 - Hal Puthoff
Didn't know what they had. This was just – they were saying – This could be hypothetical or he could be trying to tell us something, but he wouldn't say. Interesting.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2314 - Hal Puthoff
Well, you know, it was just a gut response, basically. You remote viewed it? No, I didn't do that. Did you? By the way, in the remote viewing program, one of the things they told us, look, you guys that are running this program, don't you ever think about remote viewing yourself.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2314 - Hal Puthoff
They were only looking for quarks and stuff like that. So anyway, I brought him over to the lab. I said, remember that thing you did with the... with the thermistors there at City College in New York. Well, this is sort of like that on steroids. And so he said, okay, well, I'll see what I can do. Well, it turned out he generated all kinds of signals in that little quantum chip.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2314 - Hal Puthoff
We learned in the LSD days that if the experimenters get involved in the subject they're researching, they lose their objectivity. And don't think you can sneak away and get away with it because we'll get you on the polygraph. So no, never did.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2314 - Hal Puthoff
That's what they said. So anyway, back to this. So we came up with our numbers and said, you know, this does not look like a good idea. So at that time, that was the viewpoint. Now, as we'll get into, at this point, I have a different viewpoint. I think there should be more disclosure than is apparent in the culture.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2314 - Hal Puthoff
Even government people. In fact, I have a great example of that, and that is Edward Teller, father of the H-bomb, involved in the Manhattan Project. You'd think if anybody wanted to keep secrets about national security, it would be him. One of the strongest statements he made, which actually was kind of a driver in my shifting my viewpoint about, well, should we come out with this or not?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2314 - Hal Puthoff
He said, you know, In exploring nuclear energy, we had the Manhattan Project, highly classified, but nonetheless, we and the Russians kind of marched along step by step. But in electronics, we didn't classify electronics, you know, circuit boards and all that kind of stuff. And we took off like a rocket and left Russia in the dust.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2314 - Hal Puthoff
So his viewpoint was that having more openness, even in national security areas, is a better bet. And so that made me think, even though I've been part of, as it turns out, decades long highly classified, not for the street, UAP investigations, that sort of affected my thinking about it, and I became more open to the idea that we should do that.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2314 - Hal Puthoff
But the way I got actually more officially involved was that, as it turns out, in 2008, I think it was, Harry Reid, who was at the time Senate Majority Leader, Daniel Inouye from Hawaii, Ted Stevens from Alaska. They're part of the Gang of Eight, so-called, so they get better briefings than most people on what's going on beyond the scenes. So at that point you might think,
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2314 - Hal Puthoff
Well, UFO stuff, I mean, that's all dead. Let me give you a little background first. And that is, you know, back in the 50s and 60s, we had Project Sign, Project Grudge, Project Blue Book. And then they had the Condon Committee at University of Colorado examine the area and say, he came out with this thing saying, but there's nothing here. It's not worth the Air Force spending any time on it.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2314 - Hal Puthoff
Actually, the Condon Report, if you read it, There's a deep report showing all kinds of reasons why this is real. And then there's the foreword, which most media read, in which he said, oh, nothing here. Don't worry about it. So after 1969, which is when that report came out, if you called – Air Force Public Affairs Office said, well, what's going on with UFOs?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2314 - Hal Puthoff
And of course, a graduate student whose life depended on this not being affected by anything outside said, maybe there's some bubbles in the hydrogen line or something, something. But no, he was able to do it. But what was most interesting... And I asked him, well, how did you know what to do?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2314 - Hal Puthoff
Oh, no, no, we give up all that stuff back in 1969. The truth of the matter is that the very memo that canceled Blue Book by General Bollander had down the fine print, but anything that might affect national security, we should keep track of. So now we come up to 2017. These senators who knew that there was still stuff going on decided there should be a new program.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2314 - Hal Puthoff
And so they asked the top physicists at DIA, Jim Lukatsky, who was one of the top physicists on propulsion and rocketry and so on, to put out a request for a proposal. And so that went out. And so actually Robert Bigelow picked it up. And he said, okay, we'll do this. And so he then got the program. And since I had been involved with Bigelow, he asked me to be part of the program.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2314 - Hal Puthoff
So that's when I got, you might say, officially involved in really digging into the issue.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2314 - Hal Puthoff
what maybe they do have something the crash roswell site maybe something else did you know more from other talking to other people had you heard whispers like what did you know what i knew was not much i mean yeah i heard whispers uh but i didn't get you know really involved in and thinking about it i mean you know a good physicist realizes this is tinfoil hat conspiracy stuff you know
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2314 - Hal Puthoff
I already got that problem. But when they came up with the idea we should do another deeper dive into this. And by that time, I was, you know, I mean, as a physicist, I mean, through the years, I mean, I was a Star Trek fan and, you know, Star Trek fan and all that kind of stuff. And as a physicist, I would hear about these UFO sightings and so on.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2314 - Hal Puthoff
So I always wondered about, you know, how can this – you know, could somebody really have any kind of propulsion that would look like that? So anyway, so when this program got set up, it turned out my particular assignment was, okay, let's look at all the physics and engineering that might be behind this stuff And by the way, we will arrange for you to get access to some materials. Okay, fine.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2314 - Hal Puthoff
He said, well, I didn't know what to do, so I just looked inside, looked inside through all this shielding. And he drew a diagram of what was inside there that had never been published. And he said, well, this is when I put my attention on it. That just happened by accident.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2314 - Hal Puthoff
So that was my tasking. And so I said, okay. So I can't get into a lot of detail, but I did do a lot of back and forth with some aerospace executives about getting access in case they had any materials and that kind of stuff. It was very... So they finally said, no, if that were the case, it would be too compartmentalized. We can't share this.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2314 - Hal Puthoff
Even though you have an official program, you've got top secret, SCI, gamma, HCS, you've got all these clearances. But... If we had materials, they'd be too highly classified. We couldn't share them. So a lot of negotiation went on. I spent a lot of time with the vice president.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2314 - Hal Puthoff
Exactly. Already they're tipping their hat. They're already tipping their hat. Anyway, the second place to go then was, okay, they're not going to share their materials. I'm going to almost assuredly have them. Suppose they had shared them. What would we have done? Well, we would have gone to subject matter experts all around the world. We'd give them some materials.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2314 - Hal Puthoff
We'd say, you know, this came from a Russian sub or, you know, whatever. Give us your best output and so on. So I said, okay, since we're not able to get materials and share them. let me go to all of the subject matter experts that we would have gone to and say, we're doing a survey for Bigelow Aerospace. He wants to know where will your field be in the year 2050.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2314 - Hal Puthoff
So we figured, okay, we'd get the best sort of assessment of possible futures for their fields. And... I realize you probably don't have immediate access to this, but just to give you an idea, some of the papers that we got by going out to these people, and you'll see how serious we were, aneutronic fusion propulsion,
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2314 - Hal Puthoff
superconductors and gravity research, positron aerospace propulsion, warp drive, dark energy, extra dimensions, advanced nuclear propulsion. Jamie's got it up here. Yeah. So this is just the first few of 38 papers that I arranged for leaders to come up with.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2314 - Hal Puthoff
And the little quantum chip and its circuitry deep inside. And when you say he was able to affect something, what in particular was he able to affect? Well, in general, there was a big oscillating signal coming out of the thing that ran about 30 seconds or so. And then when he affected it, it just stopped oscillating. And then he said, do you want me to do something else?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2314 - Hal Puthoff
And the people we had working on those papers were people from those communities.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2314 - Hal Puthoff
So in fact, if you put your thinking cap on, you would say, This would be the way if you want to keep it out of the public. Because you don't have to disclose it. Yeah. You don't have to give it to a contractor. Say, okay, this is your stuff.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2314 - Hal Puthoff
That's exactly right. And when you think about, OK, these days, well, suppose we have some kind of disclosure policy. What are these companies going to do? They've been hiding things or various parts of the government have been hiding things.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2314 - Hal Puthoff
Misappropriating funds, lying to Congress. So you can see why it's such a big problem at this point.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2314 - Hal Puthoff
What is it called? It's called The Age of Disclosure. Amazing documentary. It's an amazing documentary.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2314 - Hal Puthoff
I think Dan Farah, who's the director and producer of that – by the way, a very well-known producer. He collaborated with Steven Spielberg on Ready Player One, which is a big hit and so on. And the approach he used, which is really very clever –
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2314 - Hal Puthoff
He contacted people like me, people like Lou Elizondo, on and on and on, and said, you know, many of you don't want to come out really and reveal too much podcast by podcast by podcast. So tell you what. My goal, he says, I'm going to approach 38 of the maximum insiders. And by maximum insiders, I mean it includes people like Senator Rubio, Secretary of State, Clapper, who's, you know. And...
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2314 - Hal Puthoff
I'm going to get all of you to collaborate on saying what your involvement was to the degree you can and not say something and end up going to jail. And then we'll put out maximum disclosure evidence all at one time in this film. And it will include people coming forward like Jay Stratton, who is head of the UAP Task Force. He's been involved in this field for 16 years.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2314 - Hal Puthoff
By the way, he has a book about to come out also, which will really be a disclosure. So anyways, we'll put this together. We won't talk about it along the way. And so 38 of us ended up being interviewed for the film, telling whatever role we felt we could tell. So in fact, when that film comes out, that's going to be disclosure on steroids, I think. That's going to be the maximum.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2314 - Hal Puthoff
And then he made it oscillate fast. And that's when the graduate student sort of went berserko. And so he said, wait a minute. Let me see what's wrong here. And he couldn't find anything wrong. So he said, well, I'm sure that was just some kind of coincidental glitch. And he did it again. So he's doing it exactly when he's saying he's going to do it. Exactly when he says he's going to do it.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2314 - Hal Puthoff
And you saw the film, so you know it's pretty revealing. It's very well done. Yeah, very well done.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2314 - Hal Puthoff
Well, it was when basically when Robert Bigelow got the contract that Harry Reid and the other senators asked.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2314 - Hal Puthoff
Well, that was in 2010. And so that went up through 2012. And then ATIP, which you may have heard of, that Lou Elizondo ran, sort of picked up there to keep the ball rolling forward. And now it's been revealed, by the way, only recently, that when the funding dried up, it dried up for the reasons you might think of and that is it was so highly classified
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2314 - Hal Puthoff
that when congressional statements came down that, okay, we need so much money for this, it didn't actually describe. It would just advance propulsion and all that kind of stuff. So another group picked up the money and said, oh, well, we're working on propulsion things, but it wasn't the real deal. And so what do you do at that point? Do you go, no, wait a minute, this was really for this?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2314 - Hal Puthoff
Well, no, then you'd be revealing what this was really for, so whatever. So anyway, that sort of ended that way. But anyway, so based on that, we then as a group went to, as it turns out, the Department of Homeland Security to set up a whole new program. And it was going to be a special access program.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2314 - Hal Puthoff
It was under a name which can now be revealed because Aero, the Advanced Anomalies Aerospace Resolution Office has revealed it. It was called Kona Blue. And we built up a stack of documents that would go to the ceiling here about what needed to be done, what we were going to do. how it should be done, who should be involved.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2314 - Hal Puthoff
At this point, I'm convinced that there's a real phenomena. I mean, you know, how far can I go? I mean, I can say... I interacted with, for example, Dave Grush that you've had on your program before, who is really a high-level intelligence officer. People in the public can hardly have any idea how high a level intelligence officer he was. He prepared briefings for the president.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2314 - Hal Puthoff
Well, actually, I began early on. I was a ham radio operator as a teenager, and I went to vocational school. I didn't think I'd ever go to college or whatever. But I got all involved in learning about radio transmission and all that kind of stuff. So I finally decided, okay, I'm going to go to college and really concentrate on electrical engineering and physics and all that kind of stuff.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2314 - Hal Puthoff
He was a top UAP investigator for NRO, the National Reconnaissance Office. and then transferred over to NGA, National Geospatial Intelligence Office, and so on. And so in that role, he was asked, he was an official, part of the UAP task force, asked by Jay Stratton to find out what's going on behind the scenes at these super classified levels, and he did.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2314 - Hal Puthoff
And so that's why he eventually came out in that August 2023 interview Congressional hearing under oath saying, yep, I've talked to more than 40 people who are directly involved in the program. Well, I know Dave. I know many of the people. I know many of the programs that he's involved in. And so there really is something to it. And it's only a matter of time before it comes out.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2314 - Hal Puthoff
But anyway, the reason I'm trying to get around to answering your question was that I then wrote this up and circulated around to other physicists. And pretty soon, the CIA come landing on my doorstep and said, oh, have we been looking for you? And I said, you know, why? Well, they looked in my background.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2314 - Hal Puthoff
I don't think you can put the toothpaste back into the tube.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2314 - Hal Puthoff
That's just such an excellent question because the problem is there's an embarrassment of riches involved. These craft, you know, which in the old days, you know, farmer in the fields, someone streaking across the sky and, you know, I don't know what to think. You know, you could sort of blow it off. But because our own detection equipment has really marched up into unbelievable sophistication,
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2314 - Hal Puthoff
And so now we have these really advanced sensor systems, FLIR, forward-looking infrared radar, high-quality radars, satellites. Ratcliffe has admitted that satellites have picked up evidence of these craft. And these craft have interfered with military exercises. as we all know from, say, the Nimitz and the Gimbal and the Go Fast videos that made it out into the public in 2017.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2314 - Hal Puthoff
So it's really out there now at this point that there's a reality here. And so... That's where we are at this point.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2314 - Hal Puthoff
Right. And, of course, in the program, we interviewed the pilots about their experiences and so on. And so you can't blame a pilot. He says, look, this thing was at 80,000 feet or whatever when he first detected it. Suddenly it's down there right above the water. And then it takes off and does a right angle turn at Mach 3. This stuff is just way beyond our physics.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2314 - Hal Puthoff
They saw that I had, between my master's degree and Ph.D., I'd been a naval intelligence officer at the National Security Agency. I had lots of high-level clearances. And he said, you know, we have a problem. And they plopped a big report down on the desk about like that and said, look, the Russians have been spending millions of dollars at their best institutes
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2314 - Hal Puthoff
Of course, to a physics nerd like me, it's like, now wait a minute. If it's real, it's physics. It can't be beyond our physics. It's probably beyond our understanding. But it's beyond our engineering. So in fact, in that series of papers I showed you, the 38 papers, by the way, There's a little side story there. It's interesting. And those 38 papers were then posted.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2314 - Hal Puthoff
None of these people who generated those papers had any idea it had to do with ETs or UFOs or whatever. They all went up on what's called the JWIC server. It's a classified server for the Pentagon. And intelligence officers and aerospace contractors could get access, but nobody in the public could.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2314 - Hal Puthoff
And usually those things go up and they're up for, you know, a little while and a month or so and they take them down. This was such a popular set, this 38 papers, such popular set that everybody screamed every time they tried to take it down. And so it was posted there, you know, like forever. But eventually through Freedom of Information Act and so on, most of those papers have been released.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2314 - Hal Puthoff
And I was concerned that, oh, my God, these guys are all going to call me up and say, what? You didn't tell me this had anything to do with ETs or UFOs. But actually nobody seemed to complain about it. So back to the question that you mentioned a little earlier, though, about, you know, what's the source of this? Like I said, it's an embarrassment of riches. There's so much observation there.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2314 - Hal Puthoff
You know, the idea that it may be a scout coming by from some other planet and checking us out and heading off or whatever. I mean, there's much more than that. And, of course, as you know from interviewing Jacques Vallée, he dug into literature and found out, you know, you can go back. millennia and see descriptions of exactly what we're talking about today.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2314 - Hal Puthoff
So as far as where they come from, what they're doing here, I myself have written a paper called Ultraterrestrials where I try to cover the gamut. And I cover everything. Yeah, they could be Spacecraft from some other galaxy whipping through here. Or maybe there's some Atlanteans left over from eons ago and they're just kind of hiding out in the seabed or on some mountain range someplace.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2314 - Hal Puthoff
Or maybe some ET group showed up here 1,000, 2,000, 3,000 years ago, and they're hiding out with some bases locally and so on. And, of course, we have a fellow by the name of a professor by the name of Masters who thinks that, well, maybe it's time travelers from the future coming back.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2314 - Hal Puthoff
And then there's the whole idea, since physicists like to talk about additional dimensions, you know, maybe they come from another. So anyway, then in my Ultra-Terrestrials paper, I list every one I can think of and say, you know, we should be exploring all of these. So at this point, I would say... We know it's NHI, non-human intelligence, but it's not clear what the source is.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2314 - Hal Puthoff
Maybe at a higher level of classification than I had access to, maybe it's known, but right now I'd say we don't know. Do you have a suspicion? I guess my suspicion that it's likely... non-human intelligence from some other galaxy or far out in our own galaxy that have come here but some time back and that there are stations here.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2314 - Hal Puthoff
One of our remote viewers that was really good came up one day and said, I was looking around and I think I found a UFO base on Earth. This is during the remote viewing era, and, you know, oh, my God, I've got to report this to my CIA contract monitor. Do I want to tell them that?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2314 - Hal Puthoff
trying to use ESP for espionage purposes. And we don't know how to evaluate it. I mean, no scientist in America even believes there is such a thing. And yet you did this experiment, and it looked like this guy could actually get inside this device and describe it and affect it. And here you're at SRI. We have lots of black projects here anyway. So We'd like to check him out.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2314 - Hal Puthoff
So I did, and one of the places he came up with some, but one of the places he came up with was Mount Zeal in Australia. And so my CIA contract monitor says, well, I know this station keeper, CIA station keeper out in Australia. I think I'll call him and I won't tell him why I'm asking, but I'll ask him about Mount Zeal area.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2314 - Hal Puthoff
So he gave him a call and he said, I'd like to ask you about that Mount Zeal area. He says, oh, you mean where the UFOs were always flying around? Whoa. So I thought, oh, gee, you know. So anyway, this was from Pat Price. I take him seriously. Let me give you an anecdote. I mean, I know it's hard to believe that some of this stuff could possibly be real. Here was a real game changer for me.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2314 - Hal Puthoff
One day, Pat Price, during the remote viewing program, came in the office and he said, I got bored last night, so I started looking around and I decided to look at the Oval Office. And as I kind of did my way around the Oval Office, I realized there's something in the Oval Office that will harm him and he will not get through his second term.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2314 - Hal Puthoff
And I'm thinking to myself, oh, my God, you know, I have to report that to the CIA contract matter, which I did. And so they sent a team over looking for, you know, hidden microwaves, hidden toxic substances. Well, they didn't come up with anything. Of course, we now know from history it was the tape recorder that did them in.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2314 - Hal Puthoff
And he couldn't make it through his second term because he – So this was during the Nixon administration? Yeah, Nixon administration. Wow. And so interestingly enough, when he reported that, I said, oh, my God. That means Spiro Agnew will be president because he was the vice president. And he says, no, he goes first. Now, it turned out he did go first because of some money laundering scheme.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2314 - Hal Puthoff
So when I sit down and try to say, OK, what are the statistics – of having somebody see that a president is going to make it through his next term and his vice president is not going to take over because he goes first. I mean, the odds of that, I mean, there's just no doubt that that means it's really something.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2314 - Hal Puthoff
Now, one thing you may be surprised to learn, and you've asked me from time to time, well, you know, what did I think as I'm facing into all this stuff? We, obviously, as physicists, think about time going forward in a reasonable way. And as I mentioned, the Princeton lab... got involved. Robert John at Princeton was very good in quantum theory and so on.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2314 - Hal Puthoff
And he knows that in quantum theory, time is kind of a slippery slope. You know, we have the space-time metric and the possibility of maybe seeing something in the future or something in the past. And so he did a series of remote viewing experiments very much like what we were doing. But
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2314 - Hal Puthoff
Sometimes he would have somebody go to a site and then wait a week and have somebody describe where the person went. Or he might have somebody describe where a person went, but the person didn't go until a week later. And so he did a lot of experiments. which, by the way, were good enough.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2314 - Hal Puthoff
He also got it published in the Proceedings of the IEEE, Institute of Electronics Engineers, a couple years after our paper, like 78 or so. And so it turned out that the results, either looking a bit into the future, a bit into the past, the results were just as good. So that sort of helped solve another problem for us because we were always... I mean, I can't blame the skeptics coming forward.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2314 - Hal Puthoff
Can you bring him back and let us come and do some experiments with him? And by the way, we're hoping that we'll find this is just all BS and we don't have to think about it and that'll be the end of that. So anyway, brought him back. They spent a day hiding things in the boxes and envelopes and he would describe what was inside. And they were totally blown away.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2314 - Hal Puthoff
In fact, our favorite phrase is, as far as remote viewing goes, there are two outcomes. People investigate it and know it works. People don't and know it can't. And that's sort of it. So anyway, you know, a big thing that we always got pushed on was, well, if these people are so psychic, why aren't they rich? Why aren't they at Las Vegas? Why aren't they doing silver futures or whatever? Right.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2314 - Hal Puthoff
Well, it turned out I had a chance to test that because, as it turns out, my wife, Adrienne Kennedy, was on the board of a new grammar school that was being set up in the Bay Area where we were at the time. And so... I was trying to raise money because they were about $25,000 short.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2314 - Hal Puthoff
And so I went to a wealthy dentist I knew of and said, you know, would you mind giving $25,000 for this school that's just being set up or short? He says, no, wait a minute. I know who you are. You have that ESP program over at SRI, don't you? And I said, yeah. He said, tell you what, I do silver futures.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2314 - Hal Puthoff
If you can get your ESP people to tell me what's happening each day, the next day in Silver Futures, I will follow what you tell me and I'll bet on it and see if I make money based on that. And tell you what, whatever money I get, I'll give your school 10% of what I make. And don't worry, if I lose money, I won't charge you something. So anyway, that was interesting.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2314 - Hal Puthoff
Well, by now in the program, we recognize that, okay, there's the bell curve, sort of anybody can do it to some degree. So I simply went to the board of directors of the school and said, we're going to go into Silver Futures to make our missing $25,000.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2314 - Hal Puthoff
But I'm not going to ask you what you think the market's going to do the next day because that will depend on what you've read or what you hope for or whatever, whatever, whatever. We're going to do something different. I'm going to pick a couple of objects, objects that are very different from each other. I'm going to label one of them, mark it up. I'm going to label the other one market down.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2314 - Hal Puthoff
And I want you to describe to me today the object I'm going to show you tomorrow, which will depend on what the market does. And so, okay, and for Crash Course, I gave them this shortened version of how, you know, don't try to image it. Just try to get – it's a visceral thing. How do you feel about it? What's the sort of texture of it and so on?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2314 - Hal Puthoff
And, Jamie, can you pull up that first of the – it shows the – the wooden figurine and the tape measure. If you could show that, yeah. So on a given day, I have two objects, and of course they're different as they can be in case you get a lousy description or whatever. So on a given day, that's a couple of objects I picked out, and I labeled the one to myself.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2314 - Hal Puthoff
So they said, OK, we would like to give you a little project here, I don't know, 50 or 60K and see what else he can do. So anyway, that's how I got started on doing, quote, weird stuff. And so as many would know, that project ended up being very productive and it went over. more than 20 years and so on, highly classified level.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2314 - Hal Puthoff
I labeled the one on the left, mark it up. The one on the right, mark it down. But they have no idea what my objects are. Right. So the next day, you get the following slide.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2314 - Hal Puthoff
That's it. Okay. And so I had seven viewers, and on this particular day, five of them didn't turn out much. But one of the viewers said, I've got something all squirreled up in a can, all wound around, and I hear the words, one, two, three, said rhythmically. Tapered. The second guy, same thing. Cans, all something, all that. So that's what I go with.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2314 - Hal Puthoff
Anyway, to make a long story short, 30 days in the market, we made $260,000 for the investor. We got our 10%, which is $26,000. So we got a bit of a bonus there for the school.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2314 - Hal Puthoff
Well, that – I know. Everybody asked me that. The truth of the matter, it was almost a 24-hour-a-day job to do this. And meanwhile, we're back over at the lab training Army intelligence remote viewers how to remote view. So – Clearly that wasn't your ambition. Your ambition was not to get rich.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2314 - Hal Puthoff
Yes, I have. One example I can talk about, one sample I can talk about is... Are there things you can't talk about? There are things I can't talk about, right. But there's one sample I can talk about which you could put up on the screen. That would be that... This right here? It's right here. Yeah, right. It turns out that an Army person said that his grandfather had been involved
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2314 - Hal Puthoff
in picking up debris from the Roswell crash. And so he sent it – of all places, he sent it to Art Bell of the radio podcast, the great Art Bell. So Art Bell turned it over to Linda Howe. So she's got it. So she said she'd make it available and so on. So about this time – I had already had my viewpoint shifted as I say by Edward Teller about, you know, we should have more openness going on.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2314 - Hal Puthoff
And so, in fact, Tom DeLonge came along and, you know, the punk rock Bleak 182. and said, you know, we should be... By the way, this is before even things came out in the New York Times in December 2017. He says, you know, I've been talking to people at some aerospace corporations, and they're saying how hard it is to get students to do their engineering and come to work for us.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2314 - Hal Puthoff
And so he said, well, you know, if there's anything to, quote, the UFO area, you know, maybe it could generate some interest that way. And so... Long story short, he got Jim Simivan, now retired high-level person at CIA, got me. Keep that up, Jay. And so anyway, we started To the Stars Academy of Arts and Science.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2314 - Hal Puthoff
And so we were part of what was behind helping Leslie Keen get that story out in the New York Times to break out that something was really going on behind the scenes. Back to this material. So anyway, on this material, she came up with this material. How big is this, what we're looking at? Oh, it's about this big. So four inches, something like that? Yeah, pretty big.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2314 - Hal Puthoff
Well, maybe we'll get to that separately because I think the UAP stuff is kind of more interesting to start with. But anyway, that's how I got started in weird physics, you might call it. And then sort of like in Ghostbusters, well, if you've got some difficult problem, who are you going to call? I'll put off.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2314 - Hal Puthoff
And so it's got all these layers. So on the one hand, you could say, well, this is just a guy sending in some stuff. There's no chain of custody. You don't know if he's a fraud making it up or whatever. But anyway, it turns out those are layers of titanium and bismuth. So anyway, Tom DeLonge got a hold of a copy, and so we said, okay, we're going to do everything we can to nail this down.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2314 - Hal Puthoff
So we actually set up a contract with an Army office, and then they – arranged for AERO, the All Domain Anomalies Resolution Office, to consider taking this seriously. And so they arranged that this could be analyzed by Oak Ridge National Laboratory. And so we provided this to them to analyze. And what were the results? Well, the results were that
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2314 - Hal Puthoff
There's no obvious proof that it comes from out of our solar system because there are various isotopes that would be different if it came from some other solar system. So that would be the first thing you'd look for to say, oh, this really is ET. So that didn't wash. The second part, though, was a little more interesting, and that is these layers of magnesium and bismuth
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2314 - Hal Puthoff
I mean, those are the size of a human hair, some of those layers. And they said, well, we can't find any evidence in the history of development of materials. of materials like that, and can't even imagine why anybody want to make it. So it's just, it's an anomaly. So no proof that it's ET, but one of the things we did do, he says, okay, well, how hard is it to make something like this?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2314 - Hal Puthoff
And so we got an aerospace corporation to say, can you bond bismuth and magnesium together, you know, sort of like what we see in this sample? Well, they got two layers bonded, cost them over a million dollars, broke down their instruments to do it. So it's still basically a mystery. So we got to read the report. It was not totally provided to the public. So is this about a quarter inch thick?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2314 - Hal Puthoff
I think we had, it might have been 18, something like that. We could probably count them. So anyway, so that's a possible example. No conclusion.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2314 - Hal Puthoff
That is a perfect description of the situation. And by the way, it certainly wasn't available back in the 40s and 50s when this supposedly was found.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2314 - Hal Puthoff
Well, analyses started taking place by Linda Howe at other laboratories, I think, in the years, in the 2000s. As you go back. Yeah, we got it. I don't know, maybe 2020, something like that.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2314 - Hal Puthoff
Right, right. And seemingly, given the effort that the Aerospace Corporation put in, they can't even manufacture this today. Right. In that level.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2314 - Hal Puthoff
I think it was a true non-human intelligence craft that crashed. We've talked to one of my colleagues, Eric Davis, who's one of my senior scientific advisors. He interviewed General Exxon, who had been head of Wright-Patterson Air Force Base and so on, and also DuBose.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2314 - Hal Puthoff
So he's interviewed a couple of people that were involved back in those days, and they say it was the real deal, that this was a real unidentifiable crash, and these materials were really from out someplace.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2314 - Hal Puthoff
that had been taken to Wright-Patterson Air Force Base for analysis. And did anything come out of that analysis? Not that the public would hear about.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2314 - Hal Puthoff
Well, it gets frustrating even for, I mean, the compartmentalization in this area is really obscene. So you can have people sitting at this desk and someone else sitting in that chair. They don't have access. I can't tell him what I'm working on. He can't tell me what he's working on. So our going forward with this is very, very slow and difficult. Not opportune, I would have to say.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2314 - Hal Puthoff
And of course, we have data. Can't go into detail. We have data about crashes in other countries. So it's really clear that we're not the only ones on the planet. So that's something to be concerned about because, for example, here. We have our capitalistic competition, aerospace corporations, electronics corporations, all being very hushed up and not sharing anything. Which stifles innovation.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2314 - Hal Puthoff
Stifles innovation. Meanwhile, in China... You put all the labs on something like this and say, and by the way, don't say anything outside that you're not supposed to say or you're done. And so the competition that potentially could be happening. They're unhindered. Yeah.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2314 - Hal Puthoff
So that's part of what's behind our not revealing what we've learned because there might be some aspect that we've learned which in principle you'd think, well, you could reveal, but it might be the missing piece. that some potential adversary said, oh, that's what we've been missing.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2314 - Hal Puthoff
So even though, generally speaking, I'm of the feeling that there should be more disclosure, I'm also very tight on anything that could be potentially helpful to an adversary in this area. We're not going to reveal that would be a mistake.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2314 - Hal Puthoff
Some of them have just been left in the desert, not crashed.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2314 - Hal Puthoff
Yeah, so in fact, you know, maybe some of them are donations to help us accelerate our forward motion. Or maybe they donate something here, something in China, something in Russia, and see who... is best at moving forward just as part of their ISR evaluation of us. I mean, let's face it. We've had, as is known in the public, we've had UFOs come over our missile silos.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2314 - Hal Puthoff
One at Malmstrom Air Force Base that Salas has talked about, Bob Salas, they turned off all of our missiles. Said, no way it could be launched. In Russia, there's even a worse case. They started the launch sequence in Russia at a missile silo, nuclear missile silo. And the people at the location could not stop it, could not turn it off. So they thought, you know, World War III is about to stop.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2314 - Hal Puthoff
Fortunately, it was turned off. So anyway, you've got two things.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2314 - Hal Puthoff
That's right. So there's a big question. There are two ways to look at that. They're friendly and benign, and they just want us to know that if we get too frisky down here and think about having a nuclear war, they can stop it. Or they might not be benign, and the armada is on its way, and they just want to test that they can stop our use of nuclear weapons against them. So it's...
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2314 - Hal Puthoff
From a security standpoint, from a DOD standpoint, from an intelligence community standpoint, you always have to have the worst scenario in your mind and see where you go.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2314 - Hal Puthoff
I have thoughts going in many directions in answer to that question. All the way from, well, they seeded us here, you know, millennia ago, and they're just seeing how their petri dish is doing.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2314 - Hal Puthoff
Yeah, something like that. But, I mean— It's really hard to know. I mean, it may be that we're a very special planet because we have all this water, which generally speaking is kind of rare. So, you know, maybe they'd like to slowly build up a connection with us so that they could take advantage of direct access to some of our resources. Don't know.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2314 - Hal Puthoff
By and large, interactions have not been what you might call negative. I mean, even when we shoot missiles at them or whatever. But there were a series of events in Calaris Island in Brazil back in the 80s, I think it was. And as part of our program, we investigated that in some detail, where over some long period, like weeks, and the Brazilian Air Force got involved.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2314 - Hal Puthoff
They got 1,000 hours of film and they put a big Air Force group down there. And the UFOs were coming over and sending out beams that were actually harming people That's our one example that stands out of there being apparent episodes where UFOs, there's no way to interpret it but as negative.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2314 - Hal Puthoff
So that makes you wonder, well, maybe there's just one particular group of UFOnauts that are negatively disposed but the rest of them are okay.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2314 - Hal Puthoff
Yeah, exactly. So there's a lot. I mean, it's still a big area that needs a lot of look-see. And interestingly enough, even though this has been a tinfoil hat crowd kind of thing up until around 2017 when the New York Times story came out,
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2314 - Hal Puthoff
He said that for some reason, starting when he was a little kid, he would try to focus on some news item or whatever and he'd suddenly get some kind of picture in his mind about what was going on and later he would check it out and it turned out to be false. Correct. So he just said, you know, I just... So he stumbled upon remote viewing.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2314 - Hal Puthoff
Suddenly, that really made a difference because the people that were coming on board that there's something real here were people like Senator Harry Reid and other senators and so on. And so that sort of broken open that, okay, there really is something here. And so as a result of that, that's how some of these programs have gotten pushed forward and reignited.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2314 - Hal Puthoff
I'm at more than 10 in possession of the United States. What about worldwide?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2314 - Hal Puthoff
We have data, but it's classified. There's no way to really talk about it.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2314 - Hal Puthoff
Actually, I don't know for sure in terms of data. I mean, we have our best data, of course, on our own retrievals.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2314 - Hal Puthoff
Well, we looked into the Bob Lazar story, but only from a certain relatively superficial level. We found out what his clearance levels supposedly were and so on, which came back saying it was not high enough to be doing what he says he was doing. On the other hand, it may just simply be, yeah, it was better than that, but we didn't have the access to see that.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2314 - Hal Puthoff
So when I hear its physics descriptions, it's a puzzle. It seems... Not exactly as I would anticipate might be the technology behind the craft, but I can't absolutely write them off. So it's an enigma, and I don't have any hard data to prove one way or the other. So I know you've talked to them.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2314 - Hal Puthoff
So even when people that have high clearances go and say, well, tell me about this. What's behind this? Who knows? If it's a special access program, an SAP, it might be, say, no, we're going to tell you that, you know, he didn't do anything of significance here. In fact, he might have done something of significance. There's just no telling from the outside. Right.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2314 - Hal Puthoff
Well, there are two aspects. One is, what is the material or mechanisms that generate the effects? Then the other is, are the effects being described reasonable descriptions of the kind of effects you think are associated with such craft? On the Element 115, as you know, in the general scientific community, we've seen Element 115, but it's very short-lived. So it's hard to evaluate that.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2314 - Hal Puthoff
Right now, I think it was a particle collider in Soviet Union or in Russia.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2314 - Hal Puthoff
That's what he says. So in general, it was known that – and predicted – that there was an island of stability, as we call it, on some of these higher elements in the periodic table that are beyond uranium and so on. But really no data predicted as to what their lifetimes would be. And so element 115 is in that bunch, and when he first discussed it, it hadn't been seen yet.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2314 - Hal Puthoff
It is very different. And as we might discuss later, I've got some ideas about, you know, what some of the quantum mechanisms might be involved in that. But anyway, as far as the CIA was concerned, they were most interested in this ability to see through shielding.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2314 - Hal Puthoff
Way back, that's right. But eventually that element was detected, although the version of it that was detected had a very short lifetime. But, of course, there may be some other isotope of that element that could have a long lifetime. Who knows? So it's just hard to evaluate. So it sits in my gray box, as I say.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2314 - Hal Puthoff
But his description of the anti-gravity effects and so on, that's an area that is well described as what you might expect. As it turns out, in that series of 38 papers, one of my own papers that I provided, was one called space-time metric engineering. And when the pilots came to me and said, you know, drops down, takes off, right angle turn at Mach 10, you know, this is way beyond our physics.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2314 - Hal Puthoff
And I said earlier, no, I think it's not beyond our physics, beyond our engineering. But what I did on the physics level was... All of our electronics that we have here, for example, this microphone, the recording that you're making, and so on, that's all based on electromagnetic kinds of technologies, all of which come out of Maxwell's equations.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2314 - Hal Puthoff
Clerk Maxwell, way back in the 1800s, developed the equations for electromagnetism. And basically any kind of electromagnetic device, you name it, Wi-Fi, whatever, can be traced back to this equation. So what I said to myself was, okay, we have these apparent craft operating with this unbelievable kinds of activity. Is there any way to account for that in our physics?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2314 - Hal Puthoff
Well, it turns out, so what I did, I took a sheet of paper, and the left-hand side of the paper, I wrote down all the weird effects that have been claimed. Right angle turn at Mach 10. I got close to the craft, and suddenly it wasn't the same size as it seemed to be when I was further away. It was a certain color. But when I got close to it, it was a different color. All these weird things.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2314 - Hal Puthoff
To me, the weirder the better because if somebody was just making up a BS story, they want it to sound rational. So you don't come up with things like, well, I got in the craft. Five minutes went by. I came out and two hours had gone by. I mean, you know, you're just not going to make that up.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2314 - Hal Puthoff
And they said, does that mean if we have all kinds of classified documents and a superconducting safe, the Russians might be able to, you know, reach in and see them? And so that's what they were most worried about. And so anyway... Did you find that to be true?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2314 - Hal Puthoff
Then on the right-hand side of the piece of paper, I said, okay, we have Einstein's equations of general relativity. And we use them to talk about black hole mergers or neutron star mergers or whatever. And all these things are massively energetic events. Suppose I could engineer Einstein's equations the way we engineer Maxwell's equations for electromagnetic effects. What would I expect to see?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2314 - Hal Puthoff
And I find out I got a hand-in-glove match between what was claiming you to be observed and what Einstein's equation, if you could engineer them, Well, why can't we engineer them? Well, at least what we know today is the energy density required to engineer those equations is just way beyond our ability to do so.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2314 - Hal Puthoff
Yeah, people have, in fact, Alcubierre warp drive. I don't know if you've heard of that, but Miguel Alcubierre is a researcher in general relativity and kind of a Star Trek fan and so on. He said, I wonder if we could really have warp drive. And so he used Einstein's equations to say, okay, under what conditions could we do a warp drive?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2314 - Hal Puthoff
And he actually came up with solutions from out of the equations. Okay, what would it take to drive that? Oh, it would be... hundreds of times more than the energy of the sun. I mean, just out of sight energy. So, you know, until we have a new energy source or until there's some back door that we haven't, you know, steered in on, it's just really outside of our expertise to think of engineering.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2314 - Hal Puthoff
And one of the things that I've looked into myself is, well, what about vacuum energy, so-called? As a quantum physicist, we all know that, you know, you push a kid in a swing and it comes down and stops. But at the quantum level, you get something going. It doesn't stop. It always comes down to a certain level, and it's still there.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2314 - Hal Puthoff
But the weird stuff actually began kind of by absolute accident. At the time, I was involved at Stanford University getting my Ph.D. I was just doing cool things. I had invented a broadly tunable infrared laser, one of the first of its kind. I even got a patent as a graduate student and co-authored with my thesis advisor a textbook –
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2314 - Hal Puthoff
So it turns out that what we call empty space is not really empty. It's full of quantum fluctuations. And, in fact, one of the difficulties of modern physics theory is that when we go – by using our standard quantum theory to calculate, well, what's the energy density, like right here, or way out in empty space? What's the energy density of those quantum fluctuations?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2314 - Hal Puthoff
That started a whole program when we found out that it was true, that we started out doing what you would think, just hiding things in the next room and can you describe them and stuff like that. But then he got bored. He said, well, if you want to know what's in the next room, go look. If you want to know what's in the envelope or the box, open it up. So he said, well, what do you have in mind?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2314 - Hal Puthoff
It's 120 orders of magnitude greater than could possibly be according to all of our other theories. I mean, it would collapse gravity and everything else, so... So we have this conundrum that that energy that is everywhere somehow all is random and cancels out. So, you know, it's just not having an effect.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2314 - Hal Puthoff
So the idea is if you could somehow access that energy and cohere it, so to speak, maybe you could get to the energy. What would that look like? Well, if I go off on a weird tangent, I could tell you what it might look like. Along the way in the remote viewing program where we're kind of looking at physical effects, I decided to take a look at so-called levitating saints.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2314 - Hal Puthoff
And so, you know, you think, okay, well, that's just, that's a Catholic church trying to pretend that's got these magical people and whatever, whatever. But when you dig into the data, you find that that isn't it. It's that the church hated the idea that some individuals were levitating because they might be in the middle of giving mass and suddenly they, you know, float up or whatever.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2314 - Hal Puthoff
So it turns out that even looking in the deep literature of the Inquisition and so on, the evidence is really solid that there have been levitating saints. And what the Catholic Church usually did is they squirreled them off into some monastery where nobody would see them.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2314 - Hal Puthoff
1628. 1628. So there are enough stories like that with lots of observers and the reporting under really excellent conditions. Okay. Now that guy didn't have a nuclear power pack on his back. So how did that happen?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2314 - Hal Puthoff
Well, the only thing I can think of in terms of the physics we know today would be that somehow the vacuum energy, which can be very high if you cohered it and if you made it nonrandom,
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2314 - Hal Puthoff
So since it's unknown, there's no way we would know how to tap it.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2314 - Hal Puthoff
He said, well, just send somebody out into the San Francisco Bay Area and I'll describe where they are. And so that's how what we call remote viewing program got started. We started doing experiments, which each – I got to say, I resisted this stuff every inch along the way because as a physicist, I had no idea how this could possibly be. But nonetheless, we began working with him.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2314 - Hal Puthoff
We tried to look into that. For example, Andrei Sakharov, a very famous Soviet physicist, said, you know, I don't think gravity is its own thing. I think really it's a manifestation of the underlying quantum fluctuations. And so I and some colleagues from Lockheed Martin and elsewhere kind of looked into that option. And, you know, if we're just sitting here talking and so on,
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2314 - Hal Puthoff
You know, the universe is full of quantum fluctuations. Why don't I notice it? On the other hand, if you get into your fast-moving car and you suddenly take off, you're pressed back in your seat. Well, what is it that's pressing you back? I mean, it isn't the wind. You've got a windshield and a cover.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2314 - Hal Puthoff
Well, there's some modeling that says, well, maybe it's because if you try to accelerate through the vacuum fluctuations, it will push back on you. So that might be our first little touch that, okay, under conditions of acceleration, we do notice the background vacuum fluctuations. Well, says to a theorist, inertia and gravity are connected somehow.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2314 - Hal Puthoff
Then it makes you think, okay, well, maybe there's some way of accessing vacuum fluctuations to control gravity. That's what we would like to think. One of the things we did in the program was just collect every bit of data that we could. So, for example, when I went through my analysis of, well, if we could engineer general relativity, what we'd expect to see, a number of things came out of it.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2314 - Hal Puthoff
So, for example, in this room, most of the electromagnetic energy we don't see. It's in the form of heat. And we don't see heat. If you get an infrared detector, you can see it, but we don't see heat.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2314 - Hal Puthoff
Well, it turns out that under the conditions in which you're controlling gravity the way these craft appear to be doing, one of the consequences and one of the attributes that goes along with it is that frequencies get raised. And so the heat of a craft that you ordinarily wouldn't see can get raised up into the visible spectrum. And so that's why they might look so bright.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2314 - Hal Puthoff
That also has certain other additional consequences. That is, if it's powered up and it's sitting there on the ground... and you get too close, the ordinary heat spectrum, which isn't harmful, or the visible spectrum, which isn't harmful, can be shifted up frequency into the ultraviolet and soft x-ray.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2314 - Hal Puthoff
So if you get too close to a landing craft that's powered up, you might get a sunburn, which is one of the things that has been reported. Or you might actually, in fact, get radiation poisoning from x-rays and so on. So those kinds of things seem to go hand in hand and give us some clues of where to look.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2314 - Hal Puthoff
I think the Travis Walton story is right on. I think that's a solid story. I don't have any specific. I have a bobblehead.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2314 - Hal Puthoff
I see. Okay. No, I think all aspects that I've seen of his story, I take that as solid.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2314 - Hal Puthoff
Our lab director, who's always concerned about was this some kind of hoax between the subjects and the experimenters – He'd make up a long list and store them in his safe, and we'd go get an envelope out of the safe, leave SRI, drive to wherever the envelope said, and he would give a description. That's how that whole program got started.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2314 - Hal Puthoff
And one of the reasons I accept that story is that, for example, the other people who left the site and then went back, they eventually did polygraphs on them, and they passed the polygraphs. I mean, they weren't making up that story.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2314 - Hal Puthoff
Well, yeah, you can, but would I expect that some unsophisticated loggers would do it?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2314 - Hal Puthoff
And the observation of UFOs coming up, non-human intelligence craft coming up out of the ocean are – They're all over the place. So Tim Godalay, who's an ex-Navy admiral, he's a Navy admiral now retired, who was in charge of NOAA, the National Oceanographic, whatever it's called, he's really big on the idea of collecting data about UFOs emerging from the water.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2314 - Hal Puthoff
And so it seems like the data on that is just all over the place. Also, observing UFOs in the water zooming by submarines at 400 knots, 500 knots, or whatever, without any cavitation. I mean, it's just really... So the data, we're buried in data really. We're just not buried in how to explain it.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2314 - Hal Puthoff
Not that I'm aware of. Why wouldn't they do that? Now, remote viewers have steered in on UFOs, although it turns out not at the bottom of the ocean. Let me give you an example. But we should probably do that. I mean, since now these days I'm not involved in the remote viewing programs, so maybe there are some.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2314 - Hal Puthoff
I would say that's likely. I mean, you have an asset that works to some degree.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2314 - Hal Puthoff
Even though it's dismissed publicly. So even after the SRI program got shut down... And after I came out to Austin in, what, 85 to set up EarthTech International and the Institute for Advanced Studies at Austin, starting to pursue my physics stuff because I really wanted to pursue my physics. I didn't want to stay in looking at remote viewing forever.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2314 - Hal Puthoff
But I got calls from certain intelligence agency asking me if I'd be willing to – set up another program in remote viewing. And so I figured, okay, I turned them down because I liked the change I had made. So if they ask me that, chances are they ask somebody else that, and they've probably got somebody to agree to do it.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2314 - Hal Puthoff
From time to time, many of the remote viewers that we trained in Army INSCOM, for example, have now retired from the Army. And they're teaching remote viewing classes. And they often get tasked by somebody back in the intelligence community to check out something. I mean, they've been very...
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2314 - Hal Puthoff
They're prolific in, for example, detecting, say, cargo ships coming across the ocean where a certain container is full of dope.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2314 - Hal Puthoff
That's been released on the CIA site about remote viewing results, and so you can find it. Of course, I tell any remote viewers I know, you know, don't want to advertise that because you don't want cartels. Right. Check on your back, so.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2314 - Hal Puthoff
It was very challenging, I got to say, because as a physicist and as a quantum physicist where I've written equations for all kinds of interactions, I had no clue how anything like this could possibly be. And I'll be honest, I still don't really have a clue about exactly what's going on other than consciousness seems to be expandable out into the environment in a way that we don't usually –
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2314 - Hal Puthoff
I can well imagine that somebody is. But you're just not aware of anything. I'm just not aware of it.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2314 - Hal Puthoff
I know what you're talking about. You saw it as well? I saw it as well, and it was certainly interesting.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2314 - Hal Puthoff
I wouldn't rule out the fact that we may have some pretty fancy things running from our own labs. I know that what gets developed in the dark labs, some of which I know about, are really advanced, but it just can't cover the whole observation that we're seeing with what we call NHI craft, non-human intelligence craft.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2314 - Hal Puthoff
Some of the materials, I would say yes. I think we've got some – I mean it's out on the web these days that, for example, Battelle Institute has supposedly were given some materials from – from the Roswell crash and we always hear the descriptions of this foil that you could crumple up and then you let go and it just flattens out again and so on. So material of that type was provided to Battelle
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2314 - Hal Puthoff
And they worked on it for some years to try to see if they could reproduce it. And the claim is that, and it's in the public domain, that nitinol came out of it, which is that material that can be heated and then it'll reform into its original sorts. It doesn't exactly reproduce the effect you saw, but some of it is kind of in the direction of that.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2314 - Hal Puthoff
And it turned out that some of the main material engineers that worked on that, at their deathbed, they told their relatives that they were working on pieces from the Roswell crash and And they made some progress but not a lot. You can look that up on the internet and see that that's the case.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2314 - Hal Puthoff
Yeah. Yes, the compartmentalization, I would say, is the biggest impediment to making really good progress, for sure. I think that's the case.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2314 - Hal Puthoff
Absolutely right. That's 100%. And it's even worse than you would think. I mean, one of the stories that I ran into was a corporation had materials from crashes in their basement. they couldn't even bring them up to the top floor for their own scientists to look at because it was so compartmentalized.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2314 - Hal Puthoff
consider it could possibly be the case. There are people who get into meditation and all that kind of stuff but none of that was in my background so I just found this a challenge and it was only that the CIA was paying us to look into this that I kept going the next step resisting every inch along the way. To give you an example,
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2314 - Hal Puthoff
And so that was part of the deal where we said, okay, well, give them to us, and then we'll come in the front door and give them to your scientists. And we won't say it came from your basement, and we won't say what it had to do with. And, you know, maybe that would work. But that got shut down because it was so compartmentalized. Compartmentalization is really a death knell on much of this stuff.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2314 - Hal Puthoff
As I say, as I go back to my teller story, more collaboration, even though there are faults that can happen and material can leak out and information can leak out and that might help an adversary, still I think more openness would be a better idea.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2314 - Hal Puthoff
No, actually, haven't. So for you, it's all... I mean, one time I saw what appeared to be a satellite make a right-angle turn, so that falls into that kind of a category, but who knows? Who knows what it was? Right. So no, I haven't.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2314 - Hal Puthoff
No, haven't. God, don't you want to? Well, I sure would like to do that, but... But that's still... We had this discussion earlier about, you know, for example, the row viewing or quantum entanglement or, you know, what's going on in our physics that we don't understand that these kinds of things can be happening. And you'll be interested to know that...
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2314 - Hal Puthoff
someone you know, John Paul DiGiorgio, and I are in partnership to explore a new means of communication, quantum communications. And so I'm actually now at this point directly involved in a program to examine quantum communications. And so it turns out that whereas ordinary electromagnetic communications, you know, can't get through barriers, metal door or whatever. Well, why is that?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2314 - Hal Puthoff
It's because the electromagnetic signal, when it gets to the metal door, the electric and magnetic field generate counteracting effects and so the signal can't get through.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2314 - Hal Puthoff
So it turned out that some years ago when I was digging around to try to find out how to explain unusual effects, I dug deeper into electromagnetism down into the quantum levels and recognized that there are some additional quantum processes where you could end up suppressing the electric and magnetic fields, but you would still have a quantum signal, which in principle could get through anything.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2314 - Hal Puthoff
barriers. And so that would mean, okay, if that's the case, then you could communicate to submarines. So whereas the salt water is sufficiently conductive, the electromagnetic signal can't get down there and communicate. If you are able to pull out the electric and magnetic components, but you still have an underlying quantum aspect to it, you could get through.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2314 - Hal Puthoff
Or same thing with, you know, spaceships. You know, when our spaceships came back from, when the Apollo spaceships came back, once they started in our atmosphere and are surrounded by plasma, we have this period where there's no communication. Well, for the very reason that electromagnetic signals can't get through charged plasmas. But this quantum communication aspect could.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2314 - Hal Puthoff
Well, it turns out that the machinery to generate the signals would be very explicitly designed antenna structures that are put together in such a way as to prevent electromagnetic components from being transmitted. It's the detection part where the secret to the technology is because it turns out that, if electromagnetic signals aren't there, how are you going to detect such a signal?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2314 - Hal Puthoff
Along the way, there was a little bit of PR in the newsprint, newspapers about our experiments. So we began getting people calling in and saying, well, I have some of that ability too and whatever. And so one of the people that came along that way was Pat Price. He was – ex-police commissioner Burbank.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2314 - Hal Puthoff
Because all of our detectors are, you know, electromagnetic signal comes in and generates a current and whatever. Well, it turns out that the special kinds of signaling at the quantum level can only be detected by quantum devices. Quantum devices can detect signals these quantum communication signals, even if there's no electric and magnetic effects associated with them.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2314 - Hal Puthoff
So that's what we're looking at. And so when I think about, okay, well, you know, what areas does this have application for? Well, of course, it's got a lot of application for things like communication and under conditions where you'd like to overcome shielding. But it may have something to do even with some of the consciousness stuff.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2314 - Hal Puthoff
Because ordinarily, you know, when you hear about people trying to think, well, what about consciousness? Is it still just all molecules and neurons whirling around or are there some additional fields? There are a couple of physicists, well, a physicist and an anesthesiologist, the physicist Roger Penrose, he got a Nobel Prize for her general relativity stuff, and Stu Hameroff,
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2314 - Hal Puthoff
who is an anesthesiologist, they coupled up and started saying, okay, is there a possibility that there are quantum aspects in ordinary life, in ordinary consciousness? Because it sounds kind of reasonable. The anesthesiologist says, well, when I give somebody a certain anesthetic, they lose consciousness.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2314 - Hal Puthoff
So there must be something about the anesthesia that grabs onto whatever's responsible for consciousness. So to make a long story short, they came up with a model where they felt that there are in fact quantum processes occurring within the brain that in addition to the stuff we all read about and know about, like neurons and all that kind of stuff,
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2314 - Hal Puthoff
there's also a distribution throughout our brain and nervous system of what's called microtubules. It turns out microtubules have such a structure you do experiments in lab to show this, that they can detect quantum signals. So the idea that even in our consciousness there are mechanisms for detecting quantum signals is like a whole new area to investigate.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2314 - Hal Puthoff
And so there are some biological and consciousness-oriented experimenters that are taking a look at this idea that, okay, Instead of just saying quantum entanglement, that's how information you get from here to there, maybe we can actually find out, okay, well, what's the mechanism, though? And so this is a whole new area. It turns out that...
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2314 - Hal Puthoff
I developed proof of principle for this sub-rosa quantum communication stuff on a classified contract back in the 90s, actually. So I got proof of principle in that situation. However, you say, okay, well, if you got proof of principle, then why aren't we using it? Why isn't it all over the place? Well, it turned out the quantum detectors were
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2314 - Hal Puthoff
very, you know, new kinds of circuitry and nothing ready for prime time. So I put that whole thing on the shelf, let it sit there for a while. And now because of quantum computing, it turns out a lot of research effort is going to develop cryogenic circuitry near absolute zero to be used in quantum computing.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2314 - Hal Puthoff
So I said, okay, they got these Josen junctions working, which is exactly what I want to use for my detection scheme. And so I finally decided to take it off the shelf. So I approached JP and showed him what the potential was. not only in just communications, but maybe it has implications for, you know, biological things or medical things or whatever because of this other work on microtubules.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2314 - Hal Puthoff
And he said, you know, when we were solving crimes, I would get an image of where the culprit might be hiding, and it would turn out to be correct. So maybe I have some of this ability. Well, I had no reason to necessarily believe that, but it turned out that right at that moment,
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2314 - Hal Puthoff
So he said, okay, well, let's go for it. So we have another major lab that is actually putting together circuitry for us that operates about... 3.7 degrees above absolute zero. I mean, this is really quite a technical challenge. But he and I are working on that together. He's my collaborator.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2314 - Hal Puthoff
That's the only thing I can imagine at this point based on the physics we know. How far were they separated in distance? Well, I was going to separate it. It was about five miles. As it turns out, I never actually got to do that experiment because the CIA came and scooped me up and said, well, we got to look at this remote viewing. And so even though I proposed doing the experiment,
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2314 - Hal Puthoff
The polygraph guy said this would be a great experiment. Never got around to doing the experiment because along the way, Ingo Swann visited his lab, came out and perturbed the... tiny quantum chip in the super shielded environment, that brought the CIA on my doorstep, and so then we went off in that direction. So I never got to do the experiment.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2314 - Hal Puthoff
We were being challenged by the CIA to prove this wasn't just some kind of a hoax between the experimenters and the subjects. And so they came up with coordinates because, as it turns out, when we sent people out to a site and Ingo or somebody else had to describe it, they would describe not only the site –
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2314 - Hal Puthoff
Yes, exactly. And in fact, we're not alone in thinking that way. As you may, as many in the field are aware of, in 2023, Then Senate Majority Leader Chuck Schumer and Republican Senator Rounds got together and they put together an outline of an amendment to be attached to the National Defense Authorization Act called UAP Disclosure Act 2023. And it's pages and pages long.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2314 - Hal Puthoff
And it's hard to believe, but within this document, they outline how you would go through disclosure. And it's very detailed. I mean, for example, this is an official government document. You can go find it on the internet. non-human intelligence phrase is mentioned more than 20 times.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2314 - Hal Puthoff
And the document said, look, what we need is a presidential panel
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2314 - Hal Puthoff
President say officiated panel of people from several different areas Who and and all those people out there who have materials and so on we're going to practice eminent domain Which just turns out to be one of the things that turns people's hair on fire when they think they've got something and don't want to share it but anyway that we have to come up with a process whereby a
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2314 - Hal Puthoff
corporations have been involved in this can begin to share their history and their data and their materials and the National Archives will be set up to make this information available as is safe to do considering security concerns. And so this is a multi-page document You can find it on the Internet. Okay. It passed the Senate, but the House killed it.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2314 - Hal Puthoff
So you might think, okay, well, that's the end of that. Surprisingly so, and it makes you realize the intensity of this, after it was killed, both Schumer and Rounds got back up in the Senate floor and said, okay, it got killed, but we're not giving up. We're going to get it in there next year. And so the following year, 2024, they included it again. And Most of it got killed.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2314 - Hal Puthoff
The only thing that got killed was, okay, the National Archives will make available whatever information has provided them on this subject area. And the National Archives has started to do that. But as you can imagine, anybody who's got some really juicy stuff isn't going to give it to the National Archives. It's still dead in the water.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2314 - Hal Puthoff
as being observed by the outbound person, but also what was inside the building and what was on top of the building. So we suddenly realized, okay, that person is just a beacon. It's not that he's sending something back telepathically.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2314 - Hal Puthoff
So anyway, recently I was asked to come in and brief Senator Rounds, who was one of the two people who pushed this. And he said, we're not giving up on this. Give me what you've found so far about the physics of this. Because when we try to push it, we always get the pushback that, well... You know, we're not going to make any headway.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2314 - Hal Puthoff
The pilots say this is way beyond our physics, but I understand that you and your colleagues have worked on this and felt that you can provide some of the physics. We may not get the engineering yet, but we have some place to start. Is that true? Because I need to push back on the pushback.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2314 - Hal Puthoff
So I gave him a long lecture on the physics, which I've also presented to the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence, the Senate Armed Services Committee, ARAL, the Old Domain Anomalies Resolution Office. So the information is coming out into those places. And so there are those people in high positions of power in our Congress who are really pushing it.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2314 - Hal Puthoff
So, for example, as it turns out tomorrow, there's going to be a big meeting. I think it was set up by Representative Luna or I think it's Representative Luna. You know, when they put out that official document saying, OK, JFK files are coming out. RFK files are coming out. MLK files are coming out. In that list, UFO files are coming out. Well, they haven't gotten there.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2314 - Hal Puthoff
So once we realized that, Ingo Swann in his never ending challenge said, well, just give me coordinates, you know, latitude and longitude in degrees, minutes and seconds. And I'll look wherever that is and tell you what I find. So, in fact, okay, I found that hard to believe also. But we did a lot of experiments and started targeting on things. Anyway, Pat Price shows up.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2314 - Hal Puthoff
The Epstein files are coming out. Okay. So it's officially on that list. In fact, as it turns out tomorrow, there's going to be a big thing in Congress where They're going to have an open hearing with people coming forward to talk about that there should be some release of some steps forward to release this kind of data. So it is not a dead issue.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2314 - Hal Puthoff
I mean, it is hot and there are a lot of really powerful people behind it. But you've got the resistance buried. I mean, there are people within the intelligence community and the DOD who do think we need more openness, they see the same issues I see, that we're not making much progress because everything is so compartmentalized. So it's an ongoing thing.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2314 - Hal Puthoff
Yes. So it's got to be done correctly. How would one do that? Well, this write-up that Schumer and Rounds and some other people, Gillibrand and Rubio, put together said, okay, we're going to have to lay everything out on the table at a highly classified area.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2314 - Hal Puthoff
We're going to have to sort our way through of what can be released that doesn't take the chance of giving our potential adversaries data they need to leap ahead of us. But nonetheless, we've got to have more collaboration so that we can move ahead faster.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2314 - Hal Puthoff
So that's the job of, at least in that document, of a nine-person panel to figure out, okay, what could be released without jeopardizing our national security so much, but nonetheless accelerating the kind of collaboration we need to make headway faster.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2314 - Hal Puthoff
What you've just described is what I think has to happen. I mean, because you have whistleblowers like Dave Grush coming forward, and he basically says we've got craft, we've got bodies, we've got aerospace corporations working on this behind the scenes. But in the end, that doesn't go anywhere. It doesn't really solve the problem.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2314 - Hal Puthoff
And you have people come forward and said, look, I can give you the address of where the stuff is stored so we can take this out of the discussion area and really prove something. But it would take, I think, a presidential executive order or... something to light a fire under that process to have it happen. But that's all possible. It's all possible.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2314 - Hal Puthoff
And when I compare, you know, where are we today as compared to where we were in 2004 or whenever that... other disclosure discussion took place at that time there was a lot of stigma there was no proof you could kind of put your hands on There was, in fact, purposely designed misinformation by the intelligence community.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2314 - Hal Puthoff
So-called Robertson panel went out of their way to say this is all nonsense. So that was something you're dealing with. So there you realize, well, if I come forward and say there's really something to this, I'm really blasting through quite a brick wall here. But in the intervening decades, I think we've gotten to a point where The reasons we had to not do it then are no longer applicable.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2314 - Hal Puthoff
We do some local experiments, and he's doing very well as well. And so, again, our CIA contract monitors were worried that there's some kind of trickery and so that. So they came up with coordinates of what turns out to be right next to Sugar Grove facility, which is a highly classified NSA facility picking up Soviet satellite transmissions. So I just – I had no idea what it was.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2314 - Hal Puthoff
But some of the concerns we had discussed then are still applicable and we have to pay attention to them. So I think, for example, this film that you saw that had its premiere at South by Southwest that Dan Farrow put out, and an upcoming book coming out by Jay Stratton who wrote was in charge of the UAP Task Force. These kind of things are going to accelerate that option.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2314 - Hal Puthoff
And so I think it's only a matter, I mean, I would find it difficult to believe that within a decade we're not going to figure out how to do this and that there will be what you and I would call disclosure. but in a responsible way where we're not providing the enemy information they need. I mean, I recall when the DOD program was set up out of DIA, they said, well...
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2314 - Hal Puthoff
We need to investigate this to find out whose craft there are, you know, how do they run and whatever, whatever. And then the second reason was what if our potential adversaries get access or figure this out from their data collection before we do and they leap ahead of us. So it turned out that whole program was not based on one.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2314 - Hal Puthoff
They couldn't care less where these things were coming from, what their intentions were. They're really worried about the possibility of an adversary getting ahead of us. So that was the driving force behind the whole program. Well, now having all these intervening years go by and, you know, there hasn't been any obvious super breakthrough by adversaries.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2314 - Hal Puthoff
I think now is the time we could have a kind of a reconciliation process, make sure we don't put everybody in jail and anything to do with covering this up. provide proper lanes to bring various aspects of information forward. And so that's what I and colleagues that I interact with are trying to do today.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2314 - Hal Puthoff
I mean we always kept ourselves blind to what the target was so no one could say we just gave them the data. So Pat Price decided to follow our instructions and go to those coordinates and say what he says. And so he describes this place. But as part of that, what he does is he says that he merged his mind, whatever you want to say, into a safe and a whole bunch of words popped up into his mind.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2314 - Hal Puthoff
Right. I think you have laid out an exact map of the real situation and what the future probably holds for us. And the fact that now is the time, sooner rather than later, to begin to have this become part of our total future.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2314 - Hal Puthoff
philosophical fabric to face into this and to accept the reality of non-human intelligences, for example, and recognize that our own technical development is moving so fast that the kind of things that we find to be so mysterious are pretty much likely in our not-that-far-off future.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2314 - Hal Puthoff
Exactly. You hear that, and you go, what are you even saying? That's right. In fact, my son this morning brought up that article, and, you know, it's kind of unbelievable. So...
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2314 - Hal Puthoff
That's right. Suppose you gave Leonardo da Vinci a garage door opener. What could he do? Well, first of all, plastic. He doesn't know what plastic is. Secondly, when he opens it up and sees all these little tiny things, he'd never heard of electromagnetism. I mean, there's no way that even, okay, or give Einstein an iPhone back in 1950. 45 or something, you know? Right. What could he do with it?