Geoff White

That's why it's a fascinating story.

That's why it's a fascinating story.

If you do 100% privacy, you have to protect people you don't like as well. It's a fascinating debate. This is why it goes round and round in my head in the same way it sounds like it's going in yours as well.

If you do 100% privacy, you have to protect people you don't like as well. It's a fascinating debate. This is why it goes round and round in my head in the same way it sounds like it's going in yours as well.

Which was exactly the basis on which the crypto campaigners sued the United States Treasury and Janet Yellen individually after the sanctioning of Tornado Cash. This decision to sanction Tornado Cash went down very, very badly with large swathes of the crypto community, has to be said, for exactly the reasons you've outlined.

Which was exactly the basis on which the crypto campaigners sued the United States Treasury and Janet Yellen individually after the sanctioning of Tornado Cash. This decision to sanction Tornado Cash went down very, very badly with large swathes of the crypto community, has to be said, for exactly the reasons you've outlined.

One of the key arguments and a fascinating argument is, to what extent are you responsible for the downstream effects of code that you create and make available? The people who saw this decision by the US Treasury to sanction Tornado Cash said, well, you can't sanction code. You can sanction the person who misuses the code. You don't

One of the key arguments and a fascinating argument is, to what extent are you responsible for the downstream effects of code that you create and make available? The people who saw this decision by the US Treasury to sanction Tornado Cash said, well, you can't sanction code. You can sanction the person who misuses the code. You don't

if somebody gets stabbed, you don't prosecute the person who made the knife, you prosecute the person who did the stabbing. And so that was the argument on which the US Treasury, one of the arguments on which the US Treasury was being sued. The other line of argument was that code, as you said, is freedom of speech, and freedom of speech is constitutionally protected.

if somebody gets stabbed, you don't prosecute the person who made the knife, you prosecute the person who did the stabbing. And so that was the argument on which the US Treasury, one of the arguments on which the US Treasury was being sued. The other line of argument was that code, as you said, is freedom of speech, and freedom of speech is constitutionally protected.

Those cases, by the way, that the attempts to sue the Treasury over its decision on Tornado Cash got rejected, have not done well, but are being appealed as far as I'm aware at the moment. So they lost in the first at least one round, maybe two rounds, but they're continuing that campaign because they argue exactly the same as you're saying, which is This is code. You don't prosecute code.

Those cases, by the way, that the attempts to sue the Treasury over its decision on Tornado Cash got rejected, have not done well, but are being appealed as far as I'm aware at the moment. So they lost in the first at least one round, maybe two rounds, but they're continuing that campaign because they argue exactly the same as you're saying, which is This is code. You don't prosecute code.

Because if you do, you dampen freedom of speech. You stop people inventing code. There's a chilling effect. That's the risk here. And that argument is still playing out in the courts.

Because if you do, you dampen freedom of speech. You stop people inventing code. There's a chilling effect. That's the risk here. And that argument is still playing out in the courts.

You are clearly not the only person who feels this, because in the wake of the U.S. government sanctioning Tornado Cash... Somebody clearly felt even more, felt very concerned by this and very put out by it and thought the whole thing was ridiculous, this idea of sanctioning. And so they set up a stunt, which is another bizarre wrinkle to this story and an intriguing one.

You are clearly not the only person who feels this, because in the wake of the U.S. government sanctioning Tornado Cash... Somebody clearly felt even more, felt very concerned by this and very put out by it and thought the whole thing was ridiculous, this idea of sanctioning. And so they set up a stunt, which is another bizarre wrinkle to this story and an intriguing one.

So the thing about Tornado Cash is, even though the US government sanctioned it, it's still up and running. You can still use its code on the internet. The website went down, but that doesn't matter because the protocol, you can still send money to the protocol effectively and it will do what it's programmed to do and effectively mix the money and anonymize the money.

So the thing about Tornado Cash is, even though the US government sanctioned it, it's still up and running. You can still use its code on the internet. The website went down, but that doesn't matter because the protocol, you can still send money to the protocol effectively and it will do what it's programmed to do and effectively mix the money and anonymize the money.

So the thing about that is, if I know, Jack, your Ethereum wallet address, I can use Tornado Cash to send you money and there's nothing you can do about it. It just gets sent to you automatically. So someone somewhere, we still know who did this, and I'm waiting for the day actually, Jack, when they turn up on your podcast.

So the thing about that is, if I know, Jack, your Ethereum wallet address, I can use Tornado Cash to send you money and there's nothing you can do about it. It just gets sent to you automatically. So someone somewhere, we still know who did this, and I'm waiting for the day actually, Jack, when they turn up on your podcast.