Geoff White

The first thing that happened was a guy called Andrei Pertsev was arrested in Holland and accused by the Dutch government of running Tornado Cash. Roman Semenov is also indicted by the US government. He's believed to be in the Russian Federation, so hasn't faced trial. I've tried to contact Roman Semenov, hadn't heard back from him.

The first thing that happened was a guy called Andrei Pertsev was arrested in Holland and accused by the Dutch government of running Tornado Cash. Roman Semenov is also indicted by the US government. He's believed to be in the Russian Federation, so hasn't faced trial. I've tried to contact Roman Semenov, hadn't heard back from him.

Subsequently, after the sanctioning of Tornado Cash, the US government charged Roman Storm, who's in the US and is, I think, currently being tried and is in prison. Again, fascinating trial. The same arguments are coming up in his trial as we've talked about, you know, people saying, look, he did not run this. He was trying to preserve privacy. That's why he set it up.

Subsequently, after the sanctioning of Tornado Cash, the US government charged Roman Storm, who's in the US and is, I think, currently being tried and is in prison. Again, fascinating trial. The same arguments are coming up in his trial as we've talked about, you know, people saying, look, he did not run this. He was trying to preserve privacy. That's why he set it up.

Now, going against the idea that these guys didn't run, inverted commas, Tornado Cash, is a slightly inconvenient fact, which is that, according to the US government, they owned a lot of the voting tokens and crypto tokens inside Tornado Cash. So the way this works is... you know, Tornado Cash is leaderless. It's done by vote. Any changes to Tornado Cash get done by vote using tokens.

Now, going against the idea that these guys didn't run, inverted commas, Tornado Cash, is a slightly inconvenient fact, which is that, according to the US government, they owned a lot of the voting tokens and crypto tokens inside Tornado Cash. So the way this works is... you know, Tornado Cash is leaderless. It's done by vote. Any changes to Tornado Cash get done by vote using tokens.

I think part of the US government's argument is, well, hang on, a lot of those tokens were in the hands of these three individuals. So they may say they didn't have control, but actually we think they did. Also, they say that they were still making money out of Tornado Cash. And so all this leads to trying to knock down this argument the defendants have, which is that, oh, we didn't run it.

I think part of the US government's argument is, well, hang on, a lot of those tokens were in the hands of these three individuals. So they may say they didn't have control, but actually we think they did. Also, they say that they were still making money out of Tornado Cash. And so all this leads to trying to knock down this argument the defendants have, which is that, oh, we didn't run it.

The U.S. government is saying, no, you did run it, and here's the evidence why.

The U.S. government is saying, no, you did run it, and here's the evidence why.

What's fascinating about this, it sort of starts with a hack on a video game to do with salamanders, and it ends up in this kind of epic battle royale over freedom of speech and privacy. And yeah, I find it really, really fascinating. It's almost like the kaleidoscopic story. You look into it, it's got everything in it.

What's fascinating about this, it sort of starts with a hack on a video game to do with salamanders, and it ends up in this kind of epic battle royale over freedom of speech and privacy. And yeah, I find it really, really fascinating. It's almost like the kaleidoscopic story. You look into it, it's got everything in it.

The worst example you could possibly think of, maybe with the exception of child sexual abuse, one of the worst examples you could think of would be a country using this kind of technology to get nukes. I was like, oh, yes, we've got that. So it's almost like your privacy-defending hat, your privacy-defending head is being put to the most extreme test. It's like, you want privacy? Right.

The worst example you could possibly think of, maybe with the exception of child sexual abuse, one of the worst examples you could think of would be a country using this kind of technology to get nukes. I was like, oh, yes, we've got that. So it's almost like your privacy-defending hat, your privacy-defending head is being put to the most extreme test. It's like, you want privacy? Right.

What about North Korean nukes? It's almost like that's immediately what's happened. You know when you're arguing with somebody and they just go to the most extreme example of comparing you to Hitler or whatever? It's like that's happened. Now it's North Korea. What are you going to say now? It's, yeah, fascinating. Genuinely fascinating.

What about North Korean nukes? It's almost like that's immediately what's happened. You know when you're arguing with somebody and they just go to the most extreme example of comparing you to Hitler or whatever? It's like that's happened. Now it's North Korea. What are you going to say now? It's, yeah, fascinating. Genuinely fascinating.

It's gone down. Don't get me wrong, the amount it's processing has gone down. And therefore, it makes a less efficient mixer. You want your mixer to have lots of liquidity, lots of volume going through. The less it's used, the less efficient of a mixer it's going to be. However, it is now a criminal mixer. And so, you know, it's a sanctioned mixer, according to the US government.

It's gone down. Don't get me wrong, the amount it's processing has gone down. And therefore, it makes a less efficient mixer. You want your mixer to have lots of liquidity, lots of volume going through. The less it's used, the less efficient of a mixer it's going to be. However, it is now a criminal mixer. And so, you know, it's a sanctioned mixer, according to the US government.

And so anybody who uses it is going to be a crook. What that means, of course, is... if you use Tornado Cash, you're going to really struggle to send the money onwards. Because whoever sees money coming at them from Tornado Cash is going to go, no way I'm going to accept that.

And so anybody who uses it is going to be a crook. What that means, of course, is... if you use Tornado Cash, you're going to really struggle to send the money onwards. Because whoever sees money coming at them from Tornado Cash is going to go, no way I'm going to accept that.