Gen. Stanley McChrystal

Yeah, it's actually true through most wars. The U.S. Army at the end of World War II was largely that way. There was combat experience, but discipline, interestingly enough, across the force goes down. And what happened in Vietnam was you had a drafty army. So you have people cycling through. You have attrition of non-commissioned officers and officers.

Yeah, it's actually true through most wars. The U.S. Army at the end of World War II was largely that way. There was combat experience, but discipline, interestingly enough, across the force goes down. And what happened in Vietnam was you had a drafty army. So you have people cycling through. You have attrition of non-commissioned officers and officers.

So the level of professionalism is going down. You had integrity problems. You had standards problems because even though we had a draft as they were trying to enlist people, they started lowering the standards to bring them in. So by 1973 or 1974, the U.S. Army was a shadow of what it had been in 1965, for example, just eight years later.

So the level of professionalism is going down. You had integrity problems. You had standards problems because even though we had a draft as they were trying to enlist people, they started lowering the standards to bring them in. So by 1973 or 1974, the U.S. Army was a shadow of what it had been in 1965, for example, just eight years later.

And so coming out of the war, the process of rebuilding the army had to start from the ground up. It had to start with basics like leadership, like professionalism, increasing the quality of the people. So you might remember they increased pay rates. We went to an all-volunteer army and they increased pay a lot to get standards up. They increased command tours for commanders.

And so coming out of the war, the process of rebuilding the army had to start from the ground up. It had to start with basics like leadership, like professionalism, increasing the quality of the people. So you might remember they increased pay rates. We went to an all-volunteer army and they increased pay a lot to get standards up. They increased command tours for commanders.

And then the idea was they would go back to the Thayer Hotel where they had rooms and they would change and get ready for the formal that night. It was going to be a formal dance. So we went up to our room Theoretically to get ready, but we had more time than we needed. So we started drinking. And we started drinking 151 proof rum, mixing it with some cola out of that Coke machine.

And then the idea was they would go back to the Thayer Hotel where they had rooms and they would change and get ready for the formal that night. It was going to be a formal dance. So we went up to our room Theoretically to get ready, but we had more time than we needed. So we started drinking. And we started drinking 151 proof rum, mixing it with some cola out of that Coke machine.

In Vietnam, it had been six months So that's too fast a turnover for an organization to do well. So they increased it to two years, which got you more consistency, got you a higher level of centralized selection. So you're picking a smaller percentage of your more qualified people to do that.

In Vietnam, it had been six months So that's too fast a turnover for an organization to do well. So they increased it to two years, which got you more consistency, got you a higher level of centralized selection. So you're picking a smaller percentage of your more qualified people to do that.

That's exactly right. So in the summer of 1973, General Creighton Abrams, who was the Army Chief of Staff, he's convinced to form two Ranger battalions. Now, the battalions had been formed during the Second World War as elite raiding battalions. Then they'd been disbanded near the end of the war. They'd been brought back in different manifestations for Korea and Vietnam, but not as battalions.

That's exactly right. So in the summer of 1973, General Creighton Abrams, who was the Army Chief of Staff, he's convinced to form two Ranger battalions. Now, the battalions had been formed during the Second World War as elite raiding battalions. Then they'd been disbanded near the end of the war. They'd been brought back in different manifestations for Korea and Vietnam, but not as battalions.

But in the summer of 73, he decides to form two battalions and sort of a cover story that a lot of people wanted to believe is he was forming these two strike battalions. But what he was really doing was forming two battalions where he could bring the best people he had together and raise the standards to what the standards ought to be across the army.

But in the summer of 73, he decides to form two battalions and sort of a cover story that a lot of people wanted to believe is he was forming these two strike battalions. But what he was really doing was forming two battalions where he could bring the best people he had together and raise the standards to what the standards ought to be across the army.

And he wrote this wonderful, well, he actually, somebody else wrote it and they got General Abrams to sign it. it's called Abrams Charter. And it basically says the battalion will be the best with its hands and weapons than anyone. Wherever it goes, it must be apparent it's the best. And if it's formed of brigands, it will be disbanded. So kind of warning.

And he wrote this wonderful, well, he actually, somebody else wrote it and they got General Abrams to sign it. it's called Abrams Charter. And it basically says the battalion will be the best with its hands and weapons than anyone. Wherever it goes, it must be apparent it's the best. And if it's formed of brigands, it will be disbanded. So kind of warning.

So they formed the 1st Battalion in the summer of 73 and the 2nd Battalion just months later. And they do exactly that. They take the standards for haircut standards, for physical fitness standards, for discipline standards. And they just put them as high as they possibly can, completely different from the rest of the army.

So they formed the 1st Battalion in the summer of 73 and the 2nd Battalion just months later. And they do exactly that. They take the standards for haircut standards, for physical fitness standards, for discipline standards. And they just put them as high as they possibly can, completely different from the rest of the army.

And what happened was what I think General Abrams suspected, they became this gravitational pull for the rest of the army. As the rest of the army saw them around, people first wanted to try to join the battalions, although they were difficult to get in. But it, it, put other organizations under pressure to try to do things better, to be as much like the Rangers as they could.

And what happened was what I think General Abrams suspected, they became this gravitational pull for the rest of the army. As the rest of the army saw them around, people first wanted to try to join the battalions, although they were difficult to get in. But it, it, put other organizations under pressure to try to do things better, to be as much like the Rangers as they could.

Now, the Rangers were given advantages and equipment and other things which made it easier, but the core of it was discipline. And so... Over time, as the Army started to fix some of those other problems, you started to see the haircut standards, the training standards, the physical fitness standards mirroring the Rangers. And in many cases, some people didn't even know they were doing it.

Now, the Rangers were given advantages and equipment and other things which made it easier, but the core of it was discipline. And so... Over time, as the Army started to fix some of those other problems, you started to see the haircut standards, the training standards, the physical fitness standards mirroring the Rangers. And in many cases, some people didn't even know they were doing it.

The whole Army started saying hooah in the 1980s, 1990s, but that started all in the Rangers. Where did that come from? I actually don't know. There's an apocryphal story of 2nd Ranger Battalion on Omaha Beach, the most difficult part. And General Kota goes to the Rangers and he says, OK, I need people who are going to break through. We're going to do it.

The whole Army started saying hooah in the 1980s, 1990s, but that started all in the Rangers. Where did that come from? I actually don't know. There's an apocryphal story of 2nd Ranger Battalion on Omaha Beach, the most difficult part. And General Kota goes to the Rangers and he says, OK, I need people who are going to break through. We're going to do it.

And the battalion commander answered, who, us?

And the battalion commander answered, who, us?

That's so good. That's, of course, apocryphal. But it became a word first in the Rangers and then across the Army. So everybody started being in some form or fashion like the Rangers. And so the Rangers had this outsized effect.

That's so good. That's, of course, apocryphal. But it became a word first in the Rangers and then across the Army. So everybody started being in some form or fashion like the Rangers. And so the Rangers had this outsized effect.

And then over time, what happened is people who left the Rangers, the officers who had served a tour or more there, went out to other jobs across the Army and again, tried to get their forces. When I was in Afghanistan, I remember a guy came to me and he showed me that of all the division commanders in the Army, the two-star level commanders, like 80% of them had served in the Rangers.

And then over time, what happened is people who left the Rangers, the officers who had served a tour or more there, went out to other jobs across the Army and again, tried to get their forces. When I was in Afghanistan, I remember a guy came to me and he showed me that of all the division commanders in the Army, the two-star level commanders, like 80% of them had served in the Rangers.

And sort of the last thing I remember is getting caught again. Literally the night I was... You know, the day I was off my first one and I get a second one. And I'm about to get thrown out for that because I go into this commandant's board where a colonel is the president of the board. And he was, you know, obviously an older Vietnam veteran, real mature guy.

And sort of the last thing I remember is getting caught again. Literally the night I was... You know, the day I was off my first one and I get a second one. And I'm about to get thrown out for that because I go into this commandant's board where a colonel is the president of the board. And he was, you know, obviously an older Vietnam veteran, real mature guy.

I mean, it was just this disproportionate representation.

I mean, it was just this disproportionate representation.

They were slightly earlier. The SEALs had existed back in World War II as frogmen, and then they had been formed and fought in Vietnam. So they were an elite organization, but they weren't very well-known. When the Army created the Rangers, it was larger. It was two full battalions initially, about 1,200 people. And it started to have a bigger effect because just scale.

They were slightly earlier. The SEALs had existed back in World War II as frogmen, and then they had been formed and fought in Vietnam. So they were an elite organization, but they weren't very well-known. When the Army created the Rangers, it was larger. It was two full battalions initially, about 1,200 people. And it started to have a bigger effect because just scale.

Rangers, the big difference was this very overt discipline. I mean, you would go to a, you put a Navy SEAL organization here and they got long hair and mustaches and, you know, they're kind of casual. They're great fighters, but they're older. They're probably 10 years older than the average ranger.

Rangers, the big difference was this very overt discipline. I mean, you would go to a, you put a Navy SEAL organization here and they got long hair and mustaches and, you know, they're kind of casual. They're great fighters, but they're older. They're probably 10 years older than the average ranger.

Meanwhile, the rangers had what we used to call birth control haircuts because they were high and tight. And so the Rangers, you know, have to do everything to this Picayune standard. But what you're doing is you're taking young people and you are shaping them over time into being just extraordinarily disciplined.

Meanwhile, the rangers had what we used to call birth control haircuts because they were high and tight. And so the Rangers, you know, have to do everything to this Picayune standard. But what you're doing is you're taking young people and you are shaping them over time into being just extraordinarily disciplined.

And so they're different organizations, but in many ways they're complementary in what they bring. Sort of a different stage of life.

And so they're different organizations, but in many ways they're complementary in what they bring. Sort of a different stage of life.

Yeah, it's a great question. I'll take it at seven angles. First, I know from the ranger standpoint, if someone's in the rangers, there's a price to be paid. It's a little harder than other organizations. It requires more discipline. You have to wear a funny haircut, all those things.

Yeah, it's a great question. I'll take it at seven angles. First, I know from the ranger standpoint, if someone's in the rangers, there's a price to be paid. It's a little harder than other organizations. It requires more discipline. You have to wear a funny haircut, all those things.

But you are very happy to be there because you are in an elite unit and you take great pride because you're around people who are equally committed. We used to say the only thing worse than being in the rangers was not being in the rangers. And so the greatest threat we could ever make to anybody was to what we called RFS or release them for standards, throw them out of the regiment.

But you are very happy to be there because you are in an elite unit and you take great pride because you're around people who are equally committed. We used to say the only thing worse than being in the rangers was not being in the rangers. And so the greatest threat we could ever make to anybody was to what we called RFS or release them for standards, throw them out of the regiment.

And I thought they were going to throw me out because based upon how much the punishment would be, it would either put me over demerits and throw me out then or not. But when I walked in, he goes, I don't get it. He says, you just got off this other one and now we're about to hit you with another big slug.

And I thought they were going to throw me out because based upon how much the punishment would be, it would either put me over demerits and throw me out then or not. But when I walked in, he goes, I don't get it. He says, you just got off this other one and now we're about to hit you with another big slug.

And so the sense of satisfaction most rangers got from that, and it even bled over into families. The spouses you would think would resent them, but they didn't. They knew their husband was part of something special. They took pride in that, but they also knew that their husband was happy. And so it was this sort of shared decision that we are going to make this commitment.

And so the sense of satisfaction most rangers got from that, and it even bled over into families. The spouses you would think would resent them, but they didn't. They knew their husband was part of something special. They took pride in that, but they also knew that their husband was happy. And so it was this sort of shared decision that we are going to make this commitment.

Now, interestingly, it's not like some places in the civilian world where the metric is money or something where people just toil really hard to achieve something like that. This was much more team oriented. You wanted to succeed personally. You wanted to get promoted. But there was a sense of satisfaction just being in the organization.

Now, interestingly, it's not like some places in the civilian world where the metric is money or something where people just toil really hard to achieve something like that. This was much more team oriented. You wanted to succeed personally. You wanted to get promoted. But there was a sense of satisfaction just being in the organization.

you know, with around the other end, you're just wanting to stay there. And so I think that you can get people to self-actualize even when things are not everything they'd like. They don't get as much time off as they'd like. They don't get as much time to do other things because they've judged that it's just so good to have had the opportunity to do this that you don't mind.

you know, with around the other end, you're just wanting to stay there. And so I think that you can get people to self-actualize even when things are not everything they'd like. They don't get as much time off as they'd like. They don't get as much time to do other things because they've judged that it's just so good to have had the opportunity to do this that you don't mind.

And as soon as he said that, I knew I wasn't going to get thrown out because he just said, you know, we're dismissing you. I knew I was going to get under the wire. So it was another big slug. It was another 44 hours on the area, another two months of special confinement. And so it was pretty painful, but I didn't get thrown out, which was a positive.

And as soon as he said that, I knew I wasn't going to get thrown out because he just said, you know, we're dismissing you. I knew I was going to get under the wire. So it was another big slug. It was another 44 hours on the area, another two months of special confinement. And so it was pretty painful, but I didn't get thrown out, which was a positive.

Yeah, without being trite, it is the journey and not the destination. When I left the service after 34 years, a friend of mine and I co-founded a company, and my motivation was just to create a team that I could be a part of. I didn't care whether we made money. I really didn't care what business we went into, but I wanted a place to go. I wanted a Jersey to wear.

Yeah, without being trite, it is the journey and not the destination. When I left the service after 34 years, a friend of mine and I co-founded a company, and my motivation was just to create a team that I could be a part of. I didn't care whether we made money. I really didn't care what business we went into, but I wanted a place to go. I wanted a Jersey to wear.

I wanted comrades because I realized that that was most important to me. That still is. And I'm, I'm pretty self-aware about that right now. And so I think when people don't understand that and they think the goal is to be X and Really, the goal is life between here and there.

I wanted comrades because I realized that that was most important to me. That still is. And I'm, I'm pretty self-aware about that right now. And so I think when people don't understand that and they think the goal is to be X and Really, the goal is life between here and there.

It also touches upon, we've got an attitude by some people today that says, if you are obsessed, if you work hard, you're a sucker. You are going out there and you are ruining the rest of your life. You're not getting work-life balance and all that sort of thing. And I'm just not of that view. My view is there is a certain

It also touches upon, we've got an attitude by some people today that says, if you are obsessed, if you work hard, you're a sucker. You are going out there and you are ruining the rest of your life. You're not getting work-life balance and all that sort of thing. And I'm just not of that view. My view is there is a certain

There's a certain purity and there's a certain satisfaction that comes with obsession. And it doesn't have to mean you're a jerk in the rest of your life, you don't have a good relationship, but it means those things you want, you're willing to try really hard for. You're willing to work really hard for. You're willing to see how good I can be at that.

There's a certain purity and there's a certain satisfaction that comes with obsession. And it doesn't have to mean you're a jerk in the rest of your life, you don't have a good relationship, but it means those things you want, you're willing to try really hard for. You're willing to work really hard for. You're willing to see how good I can be at that.

Because if you go 70%, you always go wonder, well, if I'd only done X. I had a lot of people in the army used to come to me and they'd go, You know, I thought about going in the Rangers. I was going to, but I was doing X and, you know, I had laundry in and I'd want, you know, I'd go, you got to make the choice to do those things sometimes.

Because if you go 70%, you always go wonder, well, if I'd only done X. I had a lot of people in the army used to come to me and they'd go, You know, I thought about going in the Rangers. I was going to, but I was doing X and, you know, I had laundry in and I'd want, you know, I'd go, you got to make the choice to do those things sometimes.

Because if you don't test yourself, one, you'll never know.

Because if you don't test yourself, one, you'll never know.

Well, it's everything. It's the essence of who we are. At the end of the day, character, and I brought it down to a mathematical equation, it's what are our convictions, the things we believe in that we've really pressure tested, and then the discipline we have to live up to it.

Well, it's everything. It's the essence of who we are. At the end of the day, character, and I brought it down to a mathematical equation, it's what are our convictions, the things we believe in that we've really pressure tested, and then the discipline we have to live up to it.

Well, it's interesting. In the moment, I didn't learn a lot. But over time, when I process it later, you know, I'd always wanted to be a soldier. I wasn't as interested in West Point as I was to be a soldier. So I had to go through West Point to be my father because my father was my hero. He was a combat veteran. Korea and Vietnam was still on active duty at the time.

Well, it's interesting. In the moment, I didn't learn a lot. But over time, when I process it later, you know, I'd always wanted to be a soldier. I wasn't as interested in West Point as I was to be a soldier. So I had to go through West Point to be my father because my father was my hero. He was a combat veteran. Korea and Vietnam was still on active duty at the time.

And so I think life is a journey for character, towards character, because you are trying to find out exactly what you believe, And you are trying to develop the discipline to live to that. If you think of the Stoics, think of Marcus Aurelius, and you do things a certain way to a certain standard simply because that's the right thing to do. And I think when

And so I think life is a journey for character, towards character, because you are trying to find out exactly what you believe, And you are trying to develop the discipline to live to that. If you think of the Stoics, think of Marcus Aurelius, and you do things a certain way to a certain standard simply because that's the right thing to do. And I think when

You can make character in its purest sense. That's sort of what it is. And I think character is individually based, but it's also society. Society has a shared character, sort of the sum of all of our parts. And if we can't make those parts fit together effectively, then it doesn't work.

You can make character in its purest sense. That's sort of what it is. And I think character is individually based, but it's also society. Society has a shared character, sort of the sum of all of our parts. And if we can't make those parts fit together effectively, then it doesn't work.

I think you develop it. There's certainly an argument that the level of stubbornness may come from birth, the level of parts of discipline. But I know most of the things that I do, I do because I learned to do them. I still fold my underwear in my drawers. Everybody laughs at it, but I do.

I think you develop it. There's certainly an argument that the level of stubbornness may come from birth, the level of parts of discipline. But I know most of the things that I do, I do because I learned to do them. I still fold my underwear in my drawers. Everybody laughs at it, but I do.

That's a great question. Hopefully not many, but those who hear about it just sort of shake their heads. Yep. But I also get up and work out. I also eat one meal a day. And I also do some other things that I think very directly make my life better than it would be.

That's a great question. Hopefully not many, but those who hear about it just sort of shake their heads. Yep. But I also get up and work out. I also eat one meal a day. And I also do some other things that I think very directly make my life better than it would be.

And so, you know, they can laugh at my fixation on doing certain things to whatever standard I've set, but the reality is, for the most part, that it's served me well. Hmm.

And so, you know, they can laugh at my fixation on doing certain things to whatever standard I've set, but the reality is, for the most part, that it's served me well. Hmm.

And so I was trying to be him. And I put it all at risk. I literally put, you know, it's a great story now when I go up and I've spoken at Westport a few times. Here I am, retired four-star general. I can joke about how many punishments I had and how close I was to get thrown out. But if I'd gotten thrown out, it wouldn't be a funny story. It would be something I probably didn't mention.

And so I was trying to be him. And I put it all at risk. I literally put, you know, it's a great story now when I go up and I've spoken at Westport a few times. Here I am, retired four-star general. I can joke about how many punishments I had and how close I was to get thrown out. But if I'd gotten thrown out, it wouldn't be a funny story. It would be something I probably didn't mention.

I think there can be, but it can also be synergistic. And by that, I think the most effective leaders I've seen are very ambitious. They are ambitious because they want to take on greater responsibilities. They want to be recognized. They want to prove to others and themselves that they can do things really well. And I think it's just a human trait that's not all bad.

I think there can be, but it can also be synergistic. And by that, I think the most effective leaders I've seen are very ambitious. They are ambitious because they want to take on greater responsibilities. They want to be recognized. They want to prove to others and themselves that they can do things really well. And I think it's just a human trait that's not all bad.

But if it's married with a personal ambition, what that ambition can be is I want to be a person that I admire, which means I'm going to live to certain values. And many of those won't be listed by the people who watch me, but I'll know. I'll know how I treat people. I'll know the things I do. I'll know why I do certain things.

But if it's married with a personal ambition, what that ambition can be is I want to be a person that I admire, which means I'm going to live to certain values. And many of those won't be listed by the people who watch me, but I'll know. I'll know how I treat people. I'll know the things I do. I'll know why I do certain things.

And so if those two are complementary, if you have this tremendous pressure on yourself from yourself, and you have an ambition to try to do better, what I see is people can be not only very successful, they can be very character-driven leaders. And they They draw certain lines they won't cross. Now, we all know cases where the second part, the personal lines, are more flexible.

And so if those two are complementary, if you have this tremendous pressure on yourself from yourself, and you have an ambition to try to do better, what I see is people can be not only very successful, they can be very character-driven leaders. And they They draw certain lines they won't cross. Now, we all know cases where the second part, the personal lines, are more flexible.

And when they run into the opportunity to get ahead or be advantaged, they're willing to push those personal standards that they know. they are violating, they're willing to push those aside. That's when we drift into something that is either less than character or bad character, but we see it way too often. And we don't call people on it enough.

And when they run into the opportunity to get ahead or be advantaged, they're willing to push those personal standards that they know. they are violating, they're willing to push those aside. That's when we drift into something that is either less than character or bad character, but we see it way too often. And we don't call people on it enough.

Yeah, if you think about a leader, often a leader needs to stand up in front of everybody and be cheered by the troops or followed by the organization or bark and everybody scurries around their desks. Whatever it is, the leader needs to feel powerful or feel successful. And in some cases, that is performance for money or for other things.

Yeah, if you think about a leader, often a leader needs to stand up in front of everybody and be cheered by the troops or followed by the organization or bark and everybody scurries around their desks. Whatever it is, the leader needs to feel powerful or feel successful. And in some cases, that is performance for money or for other things.

And it can quickly become about the leader and you start to view this organization as the supporting cast to your greatness. But the reality is the leader doesn't do that much. They may be very busy, but in most organizations, the leaders aren't closest to the enemy, aren't closest to the customer, aren't closest to the client. And so what the leader really should be is a great enabler.

And it can quickly become about the leader and you start to view this organization as the supporting cast to your greatness. But the reality is the leader doesn't do that much. They may be very busy, but in most organizations, the leaders aren't closest to the enemy, aren't closest to the customer, aren't closest to the client. And so what the leader really should be is a great enabler.

the person who is doing everything they can to set those other people up to be effective. Now, that doesn't mean you're down there rubbing their bellies all the time and giving them Skittles and beer. It means that you are maybe very demanding But you're also thinking, what do they need? Not just materially, but what do they need to want to do what it is you need them to do?

the person who is doing everything they can to set those other people up to be effective. Now, that doesn't mean you're down there rubbing their bellies all the time and giving them Skittles and beer. It means that you are maybe very demanding But you're also thinking, what do they need? Not just materially, but what do they need to want to do what it is you need them to do?

How do you create shared incentives so that they want to be a part of what the leader's doing?

How do you create shared incentives so that they want to be a part of what the leader's doing?

It would have been an opportunity lost. So, you know, maybe late in life, I learned if there are things that really matter, value them.

It would have been an opportunity lost. So, you know, maybe late in life, I learned if there are things that really matter, value them.

That's an amazing story. If I remember, he lost nobody. Correct. Which is impossible in those circumstances. I very much focus on Admiral James Stockdale's experience in the Hanoi Hilton for seven years. He was a little older than other prisoners.

That's an amazing story. If I remember, he lost nobody. Correct. Which is impossible in those circumstances. I very much focus on Admiral James Stockdale's experience in the Hanoi Hilton for seven years. He was a little older than other prisoners.

Sure. He was a Navy aviator who was shot down in 1965. And he is a little bit older, so he had a little more education, a little more philosophy and faith. And so in captivity, what he found was this case where you have no control over your environment. You are not only being poorly treated, you're being tortured. And when you are tortured, you break. And when you break, you lose self-esteem.

Sure. He was a Navy aviator who was shot down in 1965. And he is a little bit older, so he had a little more education, a little more philosophy and faith. And so in captivity, what he found was this case where you have no control over your environment. You are not only being poorly treated, you're being tortured. And when you are tortured, you break. And when you break, you lose self-esteem.

You are forced to make statements, things which you swore you would never do. In fact, you gave an oath to the United States government that said, if captured, I'll give my name, rank, and serial number. And that's just not practical. Under torture, you give more. So the people who are in this situation were in this hellish long-term captivity and they

You are forced to make statements, things which you swore you would never do. In fact, you gave an oath to the United States government that said, if captured, I'll give my name, rank, and serial number. And that's just not practical. Under torture, you give more. So the people who are in this situation were in this hellish long-term captivity and they

What Stockdale developed was something that came to be known as the Stockdale paradox. And that is you need to recognize the absolute reality of your situation. The fact that you can't control certain things. It is what it is and you can't deny that. But at the same time, in parallel, you have to hold a belief in the long-term positive outcome that you need.

What Stockdale developed was something that came to be known as the Stockdale paradox. And that is you need to recognize the absolute reality of your situation. The fact that you can't control certain things. It is what it is and you can't deny that. But at the same time, in parallel, you have to hold a belief in the long-term positive outcome that you need.

When I think of Shackleton, I think in his mind, he absolutely knows how bad things are. But he is communicating to the people who are there with him is that the endurance is locked in the ice. He communicates to them, we're going to make it. And because of his nature, they want to believe him.

When I think of Shackleton, I think in his mind, he absolutely knows how bad things are. But he is communicating to the people who are there with him is that the endurance is locked in the ice. He communicates to them, we're going to make it. And because of his nature, they want to believe him.

And because he sticks with it and is willing to endure difficult things with him, it increases his credibility with him. But I think that's true of leaders in business or in education or anything. People want to believe that you're not going to quit, that you are basically optimistic, and that you will be there for them when they waver.

And because he sticks with it and is willing to endure difficult things with him, it increases his credibility with him. But I think that's true of leaders in business or in education or anything. People want to believe that you're not going to quit, that you are basically optimistic, and that you will be there for them when they waver.

I think it's huge because we think of physical courage, but moral courage is much harder in my view. Physical courage happens in a moment. You react typically in a moment. Moral courage typically goes over a period of time. And in most cases, you're in a position where you've got a great reason to do other than what

I think it's huge because we think of physical courage, but moral courage is much harder in my view. Physical courage happens in a moment. You react typically in a moment. Moral courage typically goes over a period of time. And in most cases, you're in a position where you've got a great reason to do other than what

you sort of think you ought to do, whether you are going to lose your job or go through great embarrassment, any number of things that come. And so you've got this tremendous desire to not want to step up in that moment. And someone who's got real moral courage inspires everyone else. When someone stands up to the bully,

you sort of think you ought to do, whether you are going to lose your job or go through great embarrassment, any number of things that come. And so you've got this tremendous desire to not want to step up in that moment. And someone who's got real moral courage inspires everyone else. When someone stands up to the bully,

when someone accepts responsibility that they probably could have sidestepped, when somebody is honest when they didn't have to be, nobody's going to catch them. I think that that, it not only reinforces in the individual, but it's incredibly inspiring.

when someone accepts responsibility that they probably could have sidestepped, when somebody is honest when they didn't have to be, nobody's going to catch them. I think that that, it not only reinforces in the individual, but it's incredibly inspiring.

In the quick story, in the first Gulf War, I watched my commander, then Major General Wayne Downing, and I was in a special operations task force sending commandos deep into Western Iraq to go find Iraqi Scud missiles. And And so these little teams were sent out there and it was high risk.

In the quick story, in the first Gulf War, I watched my commander, then Major General Wayne Downing, and I was in a special operations task force sending commandos deep into Western Iraq to go find Iraqi Scud missiles. And And so these little teams were sent out there and it was high risk.

And one of our teams got in contact with the Iraqis, got a couple of guys wounded, but they were able to break contact. So they called back and they said, we want to be extracted. And General Downing knew that if he extracted that team, we wouldn't get permission from General Schwarzkopf, the four-star commander, to go back in again.

And one of our teams got in contact with the Iraqis, got a couple of guys wounded, but they were able to break contact. So they called back and they said, we want to be extracted. And General Downing knew that if he extracted that team, we wouldn't get permission from General Schwarzkopf, the four-star commander, to go back in again.

He knew that the effect on our mission would be essentially to shut it down. And so he said, no. And everybody was shocked because if that organization had then been attacked again by the Iraqis, policed up and killed, Wayne Downing's name in American Special Operations would have had a position of ignominy, ignominy forever. He would have been blamed completely.

He knew that the effect on our mission would be essentially to shut it down. And so he said, no. And everybody was shocked because if that organization had then been attacked again by the Iraqis, policed up and killed, Wayne Downing's name in American Special Operations would have had a position of ignominy, ignominy forever. He would have been blamed completely.

And I don't think most of them understood that what he was really doing is looking out for the organization in the long term. And it was even harder because he wasn't on the ground with that team. He was a combat veteran of Vietnam and he'd proven his courage. But when you're not on the ground and yet you force someone else to accept danger and

And I don't think most of them understood that what he was really doing is looking out for the organization in the long term. And it was even harder because he wasn't on the ground with that team. He was a combat veteran of Vietnam and he'd proven his courage. But when you're not on the ground and yet you force someone else to accept danger and

They actually called it disapprobation. I had to look up the word. I didn't know what it meant. And I got that. And then a few months later, I got caught drinking. Well, I didn't get caught drinking, I got caught drunk. And so I got in significant trouble for that. And they put you on the area to walk punishment tours.

They actually called it disapprobation. I had to look up the word. I didn't know what it meant. And I got that. And then a few months later, I got caught drinking. Well, I didn't get caught drinking, I got caught drunk. And so I got in significant trouble for that. And they put you on the area to walk punishment tours.

It's more morally frightening because if you're there with them, you can go, hey, we're all in this together. If you're not, you're out there. And of course, you're open to criticism. So I was amazed in the moment because I was one of his ops officers and I was able to watch it up close. And that was a moment of the loneliness of command. Nobody else wanted to understand.

It's more morally frightening because if you're there with them, you can go, hey, we're all in this together. If you're not, you're out there. And of course, you're open to criticism. So I was amazed in the moment because I was one of his ops officers and I was able to watch it up close. And that was a moment of the loneliness of command. Nobody else wanted to understand.

I don't even think after the fact, most people gave him credit for that. But it never left me.

I don't even think after the fact, most people gave him credit for that. But it never left me.

Yeah. I think I define convictions as things which you believe, but not those superficial things you believe. Someone tells you X and you just accept it because they told you and you don't bother to look it up and you don't care. Convictions aren't that. Convictions are those things about life, about values, beliefs.

Yeah. I think I define convictions as things which you believe, but not those superficial things you believe. Someone tells you X and you just accept it because they told you and you don't bother to look it up and you don't care. Convictions aren't that. Convictions are those things about life, about values, beliefs.

that you have decided to examine and to think about and really wrap your mind around. Unfortunately, I think we don't do enough conviction now. Even in many cases, our religion is the religion our parents took us to when we were young. So we just accept it. And so most people are the religion that they are first exposed to. They didn't do a comparative analysis and pick the best one.

that you have decided to examine and to think about and really wrap your mind around. Unfortunately, I think we don't do enough conviction now. Even in many cases, our religion is the religion our parents took us to when we were young. So we just accept it. And so most people are the religion that they are first exposed to. They didn't do a comparative analysis and pick the best one.

Most people are patriotic to their nation because that's where they're a citizen. Most people listen to what pundits or social media influencers or whatever, and they sort of grab these beliefs and they pass them off even to themselves as their own. And they start to believe this is this just because it is.

Most people are patriotic to their nation because that's where they're a citizen. Most people listen to what pundits or social media influencers or whatever, and they sort of grab these beliefs and they pass them off even to themselves as their own. And they start to believe this is this just because it is.

But when you really get a chance to reflect on something and force yourself to put some opposition, red team your own ideas and beliefs, decide why you believe that. Because convictions are things you should live for or if necessarily be willing to die for. And that's the bedrock that a real character's built on. Solid convictions that you are as sure about as you can be.

But when you really get a chance to reflect on something and force yourself to put some opposition, red team your own ideas and beliefs, decide why you believe that. Because convictions are things you should live for or if necessarily be willing to die for. And that's the bedrock that a real character's built on. Solid convictions that you are as sure about as you can be.

Thomas Edison?

Thomas Edison?

Yeah, I mean, strange guy. Very ambitious guy, obsessed worker. When I think of him in convictions, I think he was almost single-threaded on ambition. Now, an ambition that was impressive to create, but I don't think of him as one of the moral leaders that I would... Use this as a guidepost.

Yeah, I mean, strange guy. Very ambitious guy, obsessed worker. When I think of him in convictions, I think he was almost single-threaded on ambition. Now, an ambition that was impressive to create, but I don't think of him as one of the moral leaders that I would... Use this as a guidepost.

I think if we didn't have people with obsession, we'd be a much poorer society, not just materially, but emotionally. Because almost anyone that I know of that really created something special or did something hard, changed things. Was obsessed. Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. I mean, that was his life until he was murdered. There were just a whole bunch of cases and we sort of criticize them now.

I think if we didn't have people with obsession, we'd be a much poorer society, not just materially, but emotionally. Because almost anyone that I know of that really created something special or did something hard, changed things. Was obsessed. Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. I mean, that was his life until he was murdered. There were just a whole bunch of cases and we sort of criticize them now.

We say, well, they were too obsessed. They didn't spend enough time with their kids and their dog. I get it. But we have an electric light bulb.

We say, well, they were too obsessed. They didn't spend enough time with their kids and their dog. I get it. But we have an electric light bulb.

And it's also why you have relationships with people, with partners, spouses, different people, because in most of us, they round us out. They pull us a little bit in other directions. Because if we didn't have those, some people would live monk-like existences focused on one thing, whatever it is. And I think other people can help you round that out just a bit.

And it's also why you have relationships with people, with partners, spouses, different people, because in most of us, they round us out. They pull us a little bit in other directions. Because if we didn't have those, some people would live monk-like existences focused on one thing, whatever it is. And I think other people can help you round that out just a bit.

Where does humility come into play here? Yeah. I think humility is hugely important and it needs to be real. People can act humble, but be absolutely arrogant inside. And it's sort of an act. I think you've got to be humble enough to know who you are, the opportunities, maybe the advantages that you are enjoying, all of the things that

Where does humility come into play here? Yeah. I think humility is hugely important and it needs to be real. People can act humble, but be absolutely arrogant inside. And it's sort of an act. I think you've got to be humble enough to know who you are, the opportunities, maybe the advantages that you are enjoying, all of the things that

that mean that you are not maybe as special as you might want to believe you are, and your limitations. Now, it shouldn't stop you from trying to do things. You know, just because I am humble enough to believe I'm not the best person at X doesn't mean I shouldn't try to compete. But you need to be realistic. With people, with other people, I think humility is key because it's respect.

that mean that you are not maybe as special as you might want to believe you are, and your limitations. Now, it shouldn't stop you from trying to do things. You know, just because I am humble enough to believe I'm not the best person at X doesn't mean I shouldn't try to compete. But you need to be realistic. With people, with other people, I think humility is key because it's respect.

If you have humility, you are respecting that they bring something to the table. And they might bring more to it than you do. And so in an organization, having humility is respect for the organization. It's admitting that you are not putting yourself on a pedestal and saying that you are... you know, the super person and that they should bow down. You're basically saying, I'm one of you.

If you have humility, you are respecting that they bring something to the table. And they might bring more to it than you do. And so in an organization, having humility is respect for the organization. It's admitting that you are not putting yourself on a pedestal and saying that you are... you know, the super person and that they should bow down. You're basically saying, I'm one of you.

I happen to be in this position and I will do what this position requires, but realize that it is, it's to a degree it's role playing and they know it and that's okay.

I happen to be in this position and I will do what this position requires, but realize that it is, it's to a degree it's role playing and they know it and that's okay.

Well, McChrystalGroup.com is the organization that I'm the leader of and a part of and honored to be that. It's that team that we talked about.

Well, McChrystalGroup.com is the organization that I'm the leader of and a part of and honored to be that. It's that team that we talked about.

I did. I had two problems my first two years at West Point. The first was I wasn't as academically prepared as some students, and I didn't have good study habits. So I had a very low grade point average, but that wasn't really what threatened me. I had a discipline problem. So starting my first summer, I got what they call a slug, and that was for disrespect toward a cadet superior.

I did. I had two problems my first two years at West Point. The first was I wasn't as academically prepared as some students, and I didn't have good study habits. So I had a very low grade point average, but that wasn't really what threatened me. I had a discipline problem. So starting my first summer, I got what they call a slug, and that was for disrespect toward a cadet superior.

Yeah, my experience at West Point was much like a colonoscopy. It's nice of you to remind me.

Yeah, my experience at West Point was much like a colonoscopy. It's nice of you to remind me.

No, really my first two years at West Point, then a couple of things happened. One is I probably started mature a bit. Second is I met the girl I've now been married to for 48 years. And so she sort of helped She gave me a reason to sort of straighten up. And then I had a new tactical officer come in. And when he came in, he had this first meeting with me at the beginning of junior year.

No, really my first two years at West Point, then a couple of things happened. One is I probably started mature a bit. Second is I met the girl I've now been married to for 48 years. And so she sort of helped She gave me a reason to sort of straighten up. And then I had a new tactical officer come in. And when he came in, he had this first meeting with me at the beginning of junior year.

You might've seen that where you walk out on this, it's a courtyard in the middle of the barracks and you have your rifle and you walk back and forth for an hour at a time. And you are awarded those punishment tours in hours. So like if you get convicted of an offense,

You might've seen that where you walk out on this, it's a courtyard in the middle of the barracks and you have your rifle and you walk back and forth for an hour at a time. And you are awarded those punishment tours in hours. So like if you get convicted of an offense,

And I had just had this two horrific years and I was almost like a felon. And so we had this initial interview and he says, you know, I think you're going to be a great army officer. And I wanted to lean over and see if he was looking at the right file. And I said, you know who you're talking to? And he says, the stuff that you're not good at is here at West Point. It doesn't matter.

And I had just had this two horrific years and I was almost like a felon. And so we had this initial interview and he says, you know, I think you're going to be a great army officer. And I wanted to lean over and see if he was looking at the right file. And I said, you know who you're talking to? And he says, the stuff that you're not good at is here at West Point. It doesn't matter.

He was a special forces officer not long back from Vietnam. And he goes, this stuff doesn't matter. We've just got to get you through this and in the army. And what I see in your file is I think you're going to be a great soldier. Now, whether he really believed that or not, it had an amazing effect on me because here's a guy I respected highly who said I would. And it started to convince me

He was a special forces officer not long back from Vietnam. And he goes, this stuff doesn't matter. We've just got to get you through this and in the army. And what I see in your file is I think you're going to be a great soldier. Now, whether he really believed that or not, it had an amazing effect on me because here's a guy I respected highly who said I would. And it started to convince me

yeah, I can do this. All I've got to do is make it through this gauntlet and then I'll get to the army, which will be better suited for what I like.

yeah, I can do this. All I've got to do is make it through this gauntlet and then I'll get to the army, which will be better suited for what I like.

You saw that very much in the Army, particularly in elite units, because the things that you go through in your initial entry training and then all the basic years are pretty mundane and everybody can do it. But they've got to be patient enough, consistent enough, and stick with it to get to that.

You saw that very much in the Army, particularly in elite units, because the things that you go through in your initial entry training and then all the basic years are pretty mundane and everybody can do it. But they've got to be patient enough, consistent enough, and stick with it to get to that.

You would get a certain number of demerits, a certain number of punishment tours, and then a certain number of months of special confinement. And that meant that when you weren't walking punishment tours or in class or something like that, you were in your room. You couldn't go out. It was like being in prison. So I got my first big one. I got a three-month slug. And then I got off on a Friday.

You would get a certain number of demerits, a certain number of punishment tours, and then a certain number of months of special confinement. And that meant that when you weren't walking punishment tours or in class or something like that, you were in your room. You couldn't go out. It was like being in prison. So I got my first big one. I got a three-month slug. And then I got off on a Friday.

You can often see that talent in them down low, but then you also see sometimes if they don't have the persistence, the discipline to go through it, that also shows up later. because it's clear that they haven't valued the in-state highly enough, kind of like I was guilty of. How do you come to think about discipline after all this time? I think discipline is the most important thing we have.

You can often see that talent in them down low, but then you also see sometimes if they don't have the persistence, the discipline to go through it, that also shows up later. because it's clear that they haven't valued the in-state highly enough, kind of like I was guilty of. How do you come to think about discipline after all this time? I think discipline is the most important thing we have.

And when I talk about that, I start with self-discipline. Self-discipline is the ability to get yourself to do those things which you believe you should do and you decide to do. I think it's the gap between discipline really good leaders and sort of everybody else. And I think it shows up in every part of life.

And when I talk about that, I start with self-discipline. Self-discipline is the ability to get yourself to do those things which you believe you should do and you decide to do. I think it's the gap between discipline really good leaders and sort of everybody else. And I think it shows up in every part of life.

If you show me somebody whose personal life is a shambles, their finances, their love life, their this, I have a very difficult time wanting to trust my fate to them because I believe they just don't have the discipline to take care of the basics well, even though they may not think they're as important as other things. And most of us know how to be good leaders.

If you show me somebody whose personal life is a shambles, their finances, their love life, their this, I have a very difficult time wanting to trust my fate to them because I believe they just don't have the discipline to take care of the basics well, even though they may not think they're as important as other things. And most of us know how to be good leaders.

If we talk about leadership, you know, there's plenty of books, there's plenty of checklists. The answer is there. The difference is who's willing to do it, particularly when they're tired or they're impatient or they're angry. Who's willing to actually lead the way they know they should.

If we talk about leadership, you know, there's plenty of books, there's plenty of checklists. The answer is there. The difference is who's willing to do it, particularly when they're tired or they're impatient or they're angry. Who's willing to actually lead the way they know they should.

Yeah, I think it is because, for one, we haven't inculcated it in society broadly enough. I think you're not just born with discipline. I think part of it is learned through experiences. A lot of people look at the special operating forces, Navy SEALs, Army Delta Force, Army Rangers, and they see these people who are superhuman physically and brilliant. They can do all of these things.

Yeah, I think it is because, for one, we haven't inculcated it in society broadly enough. I think you're not just born with discipline. I think part of it is learned through experiences. A lot of people look at the special operating forces, Navy SEALs, Army Delta Force, Army Rangers, and they see these people who are superhuman physically and brilliant. They can do all of these things.

And that's not true at all. In every one of those organizations, the actual standards to get in are not very high. The selection processes, like for the Army Rangers, a nine-week school is torturous. I mean, it's just the most annoying nine weeks of your life. And less than half of all people who start complete and get the Ranger tab. But the vast majority quit. Only a very small number fail.

And that's not true at all. In every one of those organizations, the actual standards to get in are not very high. The selection processes, like for the Army Rangers, a nine-week school is torturous. I mean, it's just the most annoying nine weeks of your life. And less than half of all people who start complete and get the Ranger tab. But the vast majority quit. Only a very small number fail.

Have you got any idea what the percentage is typically? I would say that probably about 40% or 35% get the tab and maybe 5% flunk. The rest all self-select out. The only thing different is who decides not to quit. And that's the same with the SEALs. That's the same with others. So that's what they test for.

Have you got any idea what the percentage is typically? I would say that probably about 40% or 35% get the tab and maybe 5% flunk. The rest all self-select out. The only thing different is who decides not to quit. And that's the same with the SEALs. That's the same with others. So that's what they test for.

The selection processes are designed to see who's persistent, who won't quit, because that actually shows up later in times when you really need it. Again, you don't need brilliant people. You need people who commit themselves to something and then won't turn away. And that's a lot of what courage is.

The selection processes are designed to see who's persistent, who won't quit, because that actually shows up later in times when you really need it. Again, you don't need brilliant people. You need people who commit themselves to something and then won't turn away. And that's a lot of what courage is.

Courage is I will do something because I know I need to do it and I'm going to do it even though I'm frightened.

Courage is I will do something because I know I need to do it and I'm going to do it even though I'm frightened.

I walked my last tours on a Friday in the fall. And, you know, you got to celebrate. So I actually had a date with a young Italian girl from New Jersey and she came up. And so on Saturday, we went to the football game, my friend and I and she and her friend. And so we go to the football game and that was great.

I walked my last tours on a Friday in the fall. And, you know, you got to celebrate. So I actually had a date with a young Italian girl from New Jersey and she came up. And so on Saturday, we went to the football game, my friend and I and she and her friend. And so we go to the football game and that was great.

I think that's absolutely true. I think stubbornness and pride, those things interact, and they do look a lot like discipline, and who's to say they're not?

I think that's absolutely true. I think stubbornness and pride, those things interact, and they do look a lot like discipline, and who's to say they're not?

Yeah, coming out of Vietnam, the US Army was a shambles. It literally had been torn to pieces. Integrity, standards, everything which you would see in a good unit, you sort of didn't see in most of the US Army.

Yeah, coming out of Vietnam, the US Army was a shambles. It literally had been torn to pieces. Integrity, standards, everything which you would see in a good unit, you sort of didn't see in most of the US Army.

Yeah, it's actually true through most wars. The U.S. Army at the end of World War II was largely that way. There was combat experience, but discipline, interestingly enough, across the force goes down. And what happened in Vietnam was you had a drafty army. So you have people cycling through. You have attrition of non-commissioned officers and officers.

So the level of professionalism is going down. You had integrity problems. You had standards problems because even though we had a draft as they were trying to enlist people, they started lowering the standards to bring them in. So by 1973 or 1974, the U.S. Army was a shadow of what it had been in 1965, for example, just eight years later.

And so coming out of the war, the process of rebuilding the army had to start from the ground up. It had to start with basics like leadership, like professionalism, increasing the quality of the people. So you might remember they increased pay rates. We went to an all-volunteer army and they increased pay a lot to get standards up. They increased command tours for commanders.

And then the idea was they would go back to the Thayer Hotel where they had rooms and they would change and get ready for the formal that night. It was going to be a formal dance. So we went up to our room Theoretically to get ready, but we had more time than we needed. So we started drinking. And we started drinking 151 proof rum, mixing it with some cola out of that Coke machine.

In Vietnam, it had been six months So that's too fast a turnover for an organization to do well. So they increased it to two years, which got you more consistency, got you a higher level of centralized selection. So you're picking a smaller percentage of your more qualified people to do that.

That's exactly right. So in the summer of 1973, General Creighton Abrams, who was the Army Chief of Staff, he's convinced to form two Ranger battalions. Now, the battalions had been formed during the Second World War as elite raiding battalions. Then they'd been disbanded near the end of the war. They'd been brought back in different manifestations for Korea and Vietnam, but not as battalions.

But in the summer of 73, he decides to form two battalions and sort of a cover story that a lot of people wanted to believe is he was forming these two strike battalions. But what he was really doing was forming two battalions where he could bring the best people he had together and raise the standards to what the standards ought to be across the army.

And he wrote this wonderful, well, he actually, somebody else wrote it and they got General Abrams to sign it. it's called Abrams Charter. And it basically says the battalion will be the best with its hands and weapons than anyone. Wherever it goes, it must be apparent it's the best. And if it's formed of brigands, it will be disbanded. So kind of warning.

So they formed the 1st Battalion in the summer of 73 and the 2nd Battalion just months later. And they do exactly that. They take the standards for haircut standards, for physical fitness standards, for discipline standards. And they just put them as high as they possibly can, completely different from the rest of the army.

And what happened was what I think General Abrams suspected, they became this gravitational pull for the rest of the army. As the rest of the army saw them around, people first wanted to try to join the battalions, although they were difficult to get in. But it, it, put other organizations under pressure to try to do things better, to be as much like the Rangers as they could.

Now, the Rangers were given advantages and equipment and other things which made it easier, but the core of it was discipline. And so... Over time, as the Army started to fix some of those other problems, you started to see the haircut standards, the training standards, the physical fitness standards mirroring the Rangers. And in many cases, some people didn't even know they were doing it.

The whole Army started saying hooah in the 1980s, 1990s, but that started all in the Rangers. Where did that come from? I actually don't know. There's an apocryphal story of 2nd Ranger Battalion on Omaha Beach, the most difficult part. And General Kota goes to the Rangers and he says, OK, I need people who are going to break through. We're going to do it.

And the battalion commander answered, who, us?

That's so good. That's, of course, apocryphal. But it became a word first in the Rangers and then across the Army. So everybody started being in some form or fashion like the Rangers. And so the Rangers had this outsized effect.

And then over time, what happened is people who left the Rangers, the officers who had served a tour or more there, went out to other jobs across the Army and again, tried to get their forces. When I was in Afghanistan, I remember a guy came to me and he showed me that of all the division commanders in the Army, the two-star level commanders, like 80% of them had served in the Rangers.

And sort of the last thing I remember is getting caught again. Literally the night I was... You know, the day I was off my first one and I get a second one. And I'm about to get thrown out for that because I go into this commandant's board where a colonel is the president of the board. And he was, you know, obviously an older Vietnam veteran, real mature guy.

I mean, it was just this disproportionate representation.

They were slightly earlier. The SEALs had existed back in World War II as frogmen, and then they had been formed and fought in Vietnam. So they were an elite organization, but they weren't very well-known. When the Army created the Rangers, it was larger. It was two full battalions initially, about 1,200 people. And it started to have a bigger effect because just scale.

Rangers, the big difference was this very overt discipline. I mean, you would go to a, you put a Navy SEAL organization here and they got long hair and mustaches and, you know, they're kind of casual. They're great fighters, but they're older. They're probably 10 years older than the average ranger.

Meanwhile, the rangers had what we used to call birth control haircuts because they were high and tight. And so the Rangers, you know, have to do everything to this Picayune standard. But what you're doing is you're taking young people and you are shaping them over time into being just extraordinarily disciplined.

And so they're different organizations, but in many ways they're complementary in what they bring. Sort of a different stage of life.

Yeah, it's a great question. I'll take it at seven angles. First, I know from the ranger standpoint, if someone's in the rangers, there's a price to be paid. It's a little harder than other organizations. It requires more discipline. You have to wear a funny haircut, all those things.

But you are very happy to be there because you are in an elite unit and you take great pride because you're around people who are equally committed. We used to say the only thing worse than being in the rangers was not being in the rangers. And so the greatest threat we could ever make to anybody was to what we called RFS or release them for standards, throw them out of the regiment.

And I thought they were going to throw me out because based upon how much the punishment would be, it would either put me over demerits and throw me out then or not. But when I walked in, he goes, I don't get it. He says, you just got off this other one and now we're about to hit you with another big slug.

And so the sense of satisfaction most rangers got from that, and it even bled over into families. The spouses you would think would resent them, but they didn't. They knew their husband was part of something special. They took pride in that, but they also knew that their husband was happy. And so it was this sort of shared decision that we are going to make this commitment.

Now, interestingly, it's not like some places in the civilian world where the metric is money or something where people just toil really hard to achieve something like that. This was much more team oriented. You wanted to succeed personally. You wanted to get promoted. But there was a sense of satisfaction just being in the organization.

you know, with around the other end, you're just wanting to stay there. And so I think that you can get people to self-actualize even when things are not everything they'd like. They don't get as much time off as they'd like. They don't get as much time to do other things because they've judged that it's just so good to have had the opportunity to do this that you don't mind.

And as soon as he said that, I knew I wasn't going to get thrown out because he just said, you know, we're dismissing you. I knew I was going to get under the wire. So it was another big slug. It was another 44 hours on the area, another two months of special confinement. And so it was pretty painful, but I didn't get thrown out, which was a positive.

Yeah, without being trite, it is the journey and not the destination. When I left the service after 34 years, a friend of mine and I co-founded a company, and my motivation was just to create a team that I could be a part of. I didn't care whether we made money. I really didn't care what business we went into, but I wanted a place to go. I wanted a Jersey to wear.

I wanted comrades because I realized that that was most important to me. That still is. And I'm, I'm pretty self-aware about that right now. And so I think when people don't understand that and they think the goal is to be X and Really, the goal is life between here and there.

It also touches upon, we've got an attitude by some people today that says, if you are obsessed, if you work hard, you're a sucker. You are going out there and you are ruining the rest of your life. You're not getting work-life balance and all that sort of thing. And I'm just not of that view. My view is there is a certain

There's a certain purity and there's a certain satisfaction that comes with obsession. And it doesn't have to mean you're a jerk in the rest of your life, you don't have a good relationship, but it means those things you want, you're willing to try really hard for. You're willing to work really hard for. You're willing to see how good I can be at that.

Because if you go 70%, you always go wonder, well, if I'd only done X. I had a lot of people in the army used to come to me and they'd go, You know, I thought about going in the Rangers. I was going to, but I was doing X and, you know, I had laundry in and I'd want, you know, I'd go, you got to make the choice to do those things sometimes.

Because if you don't test yourself, one, you'll never know.

Well, it's everything. It's the essence of who we are. At the end of the day, character, and I brought it down to a mathematical equation, it's what are our convictions, the things we believe in that we've really pressure tested, and then the discipline we have to live up to it.

Well, it's interesting. In the moment, I didn't learn a lot. But over time, when I process it later, you know, I'd always wanted to be a soldier. I wasn't as interested in West Point as I was to be a soldier. So I had to go through West Point to be my father because my father was my hero. He was a combat veteran. Korea and Vietnam was still on active duty at the time.

And so I think life is a journey for character, towards character, because you are trying to find out exactly what you believe, And you are trying to develop the discipline to live to that. If you think of the Stoics, think of Marcus Aurelius, and you do things a certain way to a certain standard simply because that's the right thing to do. And I think when

You can make character in its purest sense. That's sort of what it is. And I think character is individually based, but it's also society. Society has a shared character, sort of the sum of all of our parts. And if we can't make those parts fit together effectively, then it doesn't work.

I think you develop it. There's certainly an argument that the level of stubbornness may come from birth, the level of parts of discipline. But I know most of the things that I do, I do because I learned to do them. I still fold my underwear in my drawers. Everybody laughs at it, but I do.

That's a great question. Hopefully not many, but those who hear about it just sort of shake their heads. Yep. But I also get up and work out. I also eat one meal a day. And I also do some other things that I think very directly make my life better than it would be.

And so, you know, they can laugh at my fixation on doing certain things to whatever standard I've set, but the reality is, for the most part, that it's served me well. Hmm.

And so I was trying to be him. And I put it all at risk. I literally put, you know, it's a great story now when I go up and I've spoken at Westport a few times. Here I am, retired four-star general. I can joke about how many punishments I had and how close I was to get thrown out. But if I'd gotten thrown out, it wouldn't be a funny story. It would be something I probably didn't mention.

I think there can be, but it can also be synergistic. And by that, I think the most effective leaders I've seen are very ambitious. They are ambitious because they want to take on greater responsibilities. They want to be recognized. They want to prove to others and themselves that they can do things really well. And I think it's just a human trait that's not all bad.

But if it's married with a personal ambition, what that ambition can be is I want to be a person that I admire, which means I'm going to live to certain values. And many of those won't be listed by the people who watch me, but I'll know. I'll know how I treat people. I'll know the things I do. I'll know why I do certain things.

And so if those two are complementary, if you have this tremendous pressure on yourself from yourself, and you have an ambition to try to do better, what I see is people can be not only very successful, they can be very character-driven leaders. And they They draw certain lines they won't cross. Now, we all know cases where the second part, the personal lines, are more flexible.

And when they run into the opportunity to get ahead or be advantaged, they're willing to push those personal standards that they know. they are violating, they're willing to push those aside. That's when we drift into something that is either less than character or bad character, but we see it way too often. And we don't call people on it enough.

Yeah, if you think about a leader, often a leader needs to stand up in front of everybody and be cheered by the troops or followed by the organization or bark and everybody scurries around their desks. Whatever it is, the leader needs to feel powerful or feel successful. And in some cases, that is performance for money or for other things.

And it can quickly become about the leader and you start to view this organization as the supporting cast to your greatness. But the reality is the leader doesn't do that much. They may be very busy, but in most organizations, the leaders aren't closest to the enemy, aren't closest to the customer, aren't closest to the client. And so what the leader really should be is a great enabler.

the person who is doing everything they can to set those other people up to be effective. Now, that doesn't mean you're down there rubbing their bellies all the time and giving them Skittles and beer. It means that you are maybe very demanding But you're also thinking, what do they need? Not just materially, but what do they need to want to do what it is you need them to do?

How do you create shared incentives so that they want to be a part of what the leader's doing?

It would have been an opportunity lost. So, you know, maybe late in life, I learned if there are things that really matter, value them.

That's an amazing story. If I remember, he lost nobody. Correct. Which is impossible in those circumstances. I very much focus on Admiral James Stockdale's experience in the Hanoi Hilton for seven years. He was a little older than other prisoners.

Sure. He was a Navy aviator who was shot down in 1965. And he is a little bit older, so he had a little more education, a little more philosophy and faith. And so in captivity, what he found was this case where you have no control over your environment. You are not only being poorly treated, you're being tortured. And when you are tortured, you break. And when you break, you lose self-esteem.

You are forced to make statements, things which you swore you would never do. In fact, you gave an oath to the United States government that said, if captured, I'll give my name, rank, and serial number. And that's just not practical. Under torture, you give more. So the people who are in this situation were in this hellish long-term captivity and they

What Stockdale developed was something that came to be known as the Stockdale paradox. And that is you need to recognize the absolute reality of your situation. The fact that you can't control certain things. It is what it is and you can't deny that. But at the same time, in parallel, you have to hold a belief in the long-term positive outcome that you need.

When I think of Shackleton, I think in his mind, he absolutely knows how bad things are. But he is communicating to the people who are there with him is that the endurance is locked in the ice. He communicates to them, we're going to make it. And because of his nature, they want to believe him.

And because he sticks with it and is willing to endure difficult things with him, it increases his credibility with him. But I think that's true of leaders in business or in education or anything. People want to believe that you're not going to quit, that you are basically optimistic, and that you will be there for them when they waver.

I think it's huge because we think of physical courage, but moral courage is much harder in my view. Physical courage happens in a moment. You react typically in a moment. Moral courage typically goes over a period of time. And in most cases, you're in a position where you've got a great reason to do other than what

you sort of think you ought to do, whether you are going to lose your job or go through great embarrassment, any number of things that come. And so you've got this tremendous desire to not want to step up in that moment. And someone who's got real moral courage inspires everyone else. When someone stands up to the bully,

when someone accepts responsibility that they probably could have sidestepped, when somebody is honest when they didn't have to be, nobody's going to catch them. I think that that, it not only reinforces in the individual, but it's incredibly inspiring.

In the quick story, in the first Gulf War, I watched my commander, then Major General Wayne Downing, and I was in a special operations task force sending commandos deep into Western Iraq to go find Iraqi Scud missiles. And And so these little teams were sent out there and it was high risk.

And one of our teams got in contact with the Iraqis, got a couple of guys wounded, but they were able to break contact. So they called back and they said, we want to be extracted. And General Downing knew that if he extracted that team, we wouldn't get permission from General Schwarzkopf, the four-star commander, to go back in again.

He knew that the effect on our mission would be essentially to shut it down. And so he said, no. And everybody was shocked because if that organization had then been attacked again by the Iraqis, policed up and killed, Wayne Downing's name in American Special Operations would have had a position of ignominy, ignominy forever. He would have been blamed completely.

And I don't think most of them understood that what he was really doing is looking out for the organization in the long term. And it was even harder because he wasn't on the ground with that team. He was a combat veteran of Vietnam and he'd proven his courage. But when you're not on the ground and yet you force someone else to accept danger and

They actually called it disapprobation. I had to look up the word. I didn't know what it meant. And I got that. And then a few months later, I got caught drinking. Well, I didn't get caught drinking, I got caught drunk. And so I got in significant trouble for that. And they put you on the area to walk punishment tours.

It's more morally frightening because if you're there with them, you can go, hey, we're all in this together. If you're not, you're out there. And of course, you're open to criticism. So I was amazed in the moment because I was one of his ops officers and I was able to watch it up close. And that was a moment of the loneliness of command. Nobody else wanted to understand.

I don't even think after the fact, most people gave him credit for that. But it never left me.

Yeah. I think I define convictions as things which you believe, but not those superficial things you believe. Someone tells you X and you just accept it because they told you and you don't bother to look it up and you don't care. Convictions aren't that. Convictions are those things about life, about values, beliefs.

that you have decided to examine and to think about and really wrap your mind around. Unfortunately, I think we don't do enough conviction now. Even in many cases, our religion is the religion our parents took us to when we were young. So we just accept it. And so most people are the religion that they are first exposed to. They didn't do a comparative analysis and pick the best one.

Most people are patriotic to their nation because that's where they're a citizen. Most people listen to what pundits or social media influencers or whatever, and they sort of grab these beliefs and they pass them off even to themselves as their own. And they start to believe this is this just because it is.

But when you really get a chance to reflect on something and force yourself to put some opposition, red team your own ideas and beliefs, decide why you believe that. Because convictions are things you should live for or if necessarily be willing to die for. And that's the bedrock that a real character's built on. Solid convictions that you are as sure about as you can be.

Thomas Edison?

Yeah, I mean, strange guy. Very ambitious guy, obsessed worker. When I think of him in convictions, I think he was almost single-threaded on ambition. Now, an ambition that was impressive to create, but I don't think of him as one of the moral leaders that I would... Use this as a guidepost.

I think if we didn't have people with obsession, we'd be a much poorer society, not just materially, but emotionally. Because almost anyone that I know of that really created something special or did something hard, changed things. Was obsessed. Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. I mean, that was his life until he was murdered. There were just a whole bunch of cases and we sort of criticize them now.

We say, well, they were too obsessed. They didn't spend enough time with their kids and their dog. I get it. But we have an electric light bulb.

And it's also why you have relationships with people, with partners, spouses, different people, because in most of us, they round us out. They pull us a little bit in other directions. Because if we didn't have those, some people would live monk-like existences focused on one thing, whatever it is. And I think other people can help you round that out just a bit.

Where does humility come into play here? Yeah. I think humility is hugely important and it needs to be real. People can act humble, but be absolutely arrogant inside. And it's sort of an act. I think you've got to be humble enough to know who you are, the opportunities, maybe the advantages that you are enjoying, all of the things that

that mean that you are not maybe as special as you might want to believe you are, and your limitations. Now, it shouldn't stop you from trying to do things. You know, just because I am humble enough to believe I'm not the best person at X doesn't mean I shouldn't try to compete. But you need to be realistic. With people, with other people, I think humility is key because it's respect.

If you have humility, you are respecting that they bring something to the table. And they might bring more to it than you do. And so in an organization, having humility is respect for the organization. It's admitting that you are not putting yourself on a pedestal and saying that you are... you know, the super person and that they should bow down. You're basically saying, I'm one of you.

I happen to be in this position and I will do what this position requires, but realize that it is, it's to a degree it's role playing and they know it and that's okay.

Well, McChrystalGroup.com is the organization that I'm the leader of and a part of and honored to be that. It's that team that we talked about.

I did. I had two problems my first two years at West Point. The first was I wasn't as academically prepared as some students, and I didn't have good study habits. So I had a very low grade point average, but that wasn't really what threatened me. I had a discipline problem. So starting my first summer, I got what they call a slug, and that was for disrespect toward a cadet superior.

Yeah, my experience at West Point was much like a colonoscopy. It's nice of you to remind me.

No, really my first two years at West Point, then a couple of things happened. One is I probably started mature a bit. Second is I met the girl I've now been married to for 48 years. And so she sort of helped She gave me a reason to sort of straighten up. And then I had a new tactical officer come in. And when he came in, he had this first meeting with me at the beginning of junior year.

You might've seen that where you walk out on this, it's a courtyard in the middle of the barracks and you have your rifle and you walk back and forth for an hour at a time. And you are awarded those punishment tours in hours. So like if you get convicted of an offense,

And I had just had this two horrific years and I was almost like a felon. And so we had this initial interview and he says, you know, I think you're going to be a great army officer. And I wanted to lean over and see if he was looking at the right file. And I said, you know who you're talking to? And he says, the stuff that you're not good at is here at West Point. It doesn't matter.

He was a special forces officer not long back from Vietnam. And he goes, this stuff doesn't matter. We've just got to get you through this and in the army. And what I see in your file is I think you're going to be a great soldier. Now, whether he really believed that or not, it had an amazing effect on me because here's a guy I respected highly who said I would. And it started to convince me

yeah, I can do this. All I've got to do is make it through this gauntlet and then I'll get to the army, which will be better suited for what I like.

You saw that very much in the Army, particularly in elite units, because the things that you go through in your initial entry training and then all the basic years are pretty mundane and everybody can do it. But they've got to be patient enough, consistent enough, and stick with it to get to that.

You would get a certain number of demerits, a certain number of punishment tours, and then a certain number of months of special confinement. And that meant that when you weren't walking punishment tours or in class or something like that, you were in your room. You couldn't go out. It was like being in prison. So I got my first big one. I got a three-month slug. And then I got off on a Friday.

You can often see that talent in them down low, but then you also see sometimes if they don't have the persistence, the discipline to go through it, that also shows up later. because it's clear that they haven't valued the in-state highly enough, kind of like I was guilty of. How do you come to think about discipline after all this time? I think discipline is the most important thing we have.

And when I talk about that, I start with self-discipline. Self-discipline is the ability to get yourself to do those things which you believe you should do and you decide to do. I think it's the gap between discipline really good leaders and sort of everybody else. And I think it shows up in every part of life.

If you show me somebody whose personal life is a shambles, their finances, their love life, their this, I have a very difficult time wanting to trust my fate to them because I believe they just don't have the discipline to take care of the basics well, even though they may not think they're as important as other things. And most of us know how to be good leaders.

If we talk about leadership, you know, there's plenty of books, there's plenty of checklists. The answer is there. The difference is who's willing to do it, particularly when they're tired or they're impatient or they're angry. Who's willing to actually lead the way they know they should.

Yeah, I think it is because, for one, we haven't inculcated it in society broadly enough. I think you're not just born with discipline. I think part of it is learned through experiences. A lot of people look at the special operating forces, Navy SEALs, Army Delta Force, Army Rangers, and they see these people who are superhuman physically and brilliant. They can do all of these things.

And that's not true at all. In every one of those organizations, the actual standards to get in are not very high. The selection processes, like for the Army Rangers, a nine-week school is torturous. I mean, it's just the most annoying nine weeks of your life. And less than half of all people who start complete and get the Ranger tab. But the vast majority quit. Only a very small number fail.

Have you got any idea what the percentage is typically? I would say that probably about 40% or 35% get the tab and maybe 5% flunk. The rest all self-select out. The only thing different is who decides not to quit. And that's the same with the SEALs. That's the same with others. So that's what they test for.

The selection processes are designed to see who's persistent, who won't quit, because that actually shows up later in times when you really need it. Again, you don't need brilliant people. You need people who commit themselves to something and then won't turn away. And that's a lot of what courage is.

Courage is I will do something because I know I need to do it and I'm going to do it even though I'm frightened.

I walked my last tours on a Friday in the fall. And, you know, you got to celebrate. So I actually had a date with a young Italian girl from New Jersey and she came up. And so on Saturday, we went to the football game, my friend and I and she and her friend. And so we go to the football game and that was great.

I think that's absolutely true. I think stubbornness and pride, those things interact, and they do look a lot like discipline, and who's to say they're not?

Yeah, coming out of Vietnam, the US Army was a shambles. It literally had been torn to pieces. Integrity, standards, everything which you would see in a good unit, you sort of didn't see in most of the US Army.