Florence Williams
Appearances
We Can Do Hard Things
The Science of Healing Heartbreak with Florence Williams
Yeah, I think that's right. And, you know, our white blood cells, I guess they get remade every three days or something. So they are really designed to be adaptive to what's happening in our environment right now. And they'll change their gene expression in ways that will sort of upregulate these inflammatory markers. or down-regulate the need to fight viruses and other things.
We Can Do Hard Things
The Science of Healing Heartbreak with Florence Williams
Yeah. So that's all related. So same thing. We feel like, oh my God, I'm alone. I'm scared. I'm scared about so many things. I'm scared about my future. I'm scared about how am I going to pay for health insurance? I don't even know how to fix the lawnmower. And that's freaking me out. You know, all these little fears, right, sort of compound.
We Can Do Hard Things
The Science of Healing Heartbreak with Florence Williams
And so we respond by pumping out more stress hormones, more cortisol, more adrenaline, more neuroadrenaline. These things in turn are going to talk to our white blood cells and our bone marrow. So it's all connected. It all does come down to our nervous system.
We Can Do Hard Things
The Science of Healing Heartbreak with Florence Williams
I think this is so fascinating because it shows that heartbreak is not just a metaphor, that we actually can feel a literal and suffer a literal heartbreak. So sometimes what happens is after a big emotional blow, someone dies, a pet dies, your favorite soccer team loses the World Cup. This has been documented. People feel like they're having a heart attack.
We Can Do Hard Things
The Science of Healing Heartbreak with Florence Williams
And so they get rushed to the emergency room. They're presenting with all the symptoms of a heart attack. And in the last 10 or so years, now they get scanned. And they know that what is happening is not a classic heart attack. where there's like a clogged artery.
We Can Do Hard Things
The Science of Healing Heartbreak with Florence Williams
But instead, it's this emotional state that we're in flooding one chamber, our left ventricle, with all of these stress hormones that's causing it to balloon out and not pump properly. So it's this heartbreak made real in this chamber of our heart. And in most cases, people recover from it. But I think 20% of people go on to still be at risk for heart attack later on.
We Can Do Hard Things
The Science of Healing Heartbreak with Florence Williams
So it's again, it's this emotional stress changing the way our heart is working.
We Can Do Hard Things
The Science of Healing Heartbreak with Florence Williams
Well, we didn't all decide that initially. I mean, if you look cross-culturally, you know, in deep time, there are some cultures who believed our emotional state resided in our stomach, for example, or somewhere else. But at some point, I think it was around the Middle Ages, you know, there was a lot more investigation, you know, into cadavers and how bodies worked and so on.
We Can Do Hard Things
The Science of Healing Heartbreak with Florence Williams
And the sense that the heart beats our blood and does, we know that our heart rate changes in different emotional states. You know, when we're anxious, it goes a lot faster. When we're really calm and happy, it goes slower. So I think at some point, it just got associated with emotion. And then from there, you know, Yeah. Heart was the seat of where things happen. Interesting.
We Can Do Hard Things
The Science of Healing Heartbreak with Florence Williams
So the science journalist in me started asking a lot of questions and talking to a lot of people. And I, you know, I told you about the scientists who told me, you know, this is why you're feeling terrible and this is why you're getting sick. And that was all a big bummer. And, you know, I was very depressed about all this.
We Can Do Hard Things
The Science of Healing Heartbreak with Florence Williams
I mean, we know actually that people who go through divorce do have worse health outcomes. So that was, you know, really hard to hear. But then I had a conversation with a scientist. Her name's Paula Williams at the University of Utah. And she said, you know, we believe that some people are more resilient than others. When we suffer from life's blows and we know that you can become more resilient.
We Can Do Hard Things
The Science of Healing Heartbreak with Florence Williams
And I, so I sort of like lean forward in my chair and I'm like, yes, please tell me how do I become more resilient? How can I better handle this? And she said, our lab has really shown that it's the people who know how to appreciate beauty. people who can cultivate awe, these are the ones who come out ahead. And I was like, what? I've never heard that. Beauty can be a cure to heartbreak.
We Can Do Hard Things
The Science of Healing Heartbreak with Florence Williams
Why have I never heard that? And is this for real? I knew that I was someone who already loved being in nature. I mean, I had already written this book called The Nature Fix, about how nature really does cure a lot of things and make us feel better. But still, I was like, I don't know if I'm someone who really is prone to feeling awe. I don't know. Do I get goosebumps?
We Can Do Hard Things
The Science of Healing Heartbreak with Florence Williams
She explained to me that some people, not everyone, some people experience goosebumps when they're hearing a beautiful song or reading a beautiful poem. I'm sure you all are those people because you're so moved by other people's stories. I am. Abby, you're shaking. No, I'm not.
We Can Do Hard Things
The Science of Healing Heartbreak with Florence Williams
I think that's really intuitive because I think you're right. I mean, one thing I learned was exactly that because for so much of my marriage, which was, you know, not always a joyful place, I was putting my heart in a little box. You know, I didn't really want to feel too much of what I was missing. And my emotional range, I think, was quite narrow in that marriage.
We Can Do Hard Things
The Science of Healing Heartbreak with Florence Williams
And it was only once I started really feeling the pain, because you sort of can't help but feel it, I think, in a big heartbreak. It broke open my heart in a way that also made it possible for me to see this beauty. And I think that so many people, when we do go through a rejection or breakup, We turn to alcohol. We turn to weed a lot. You know, we need to be able to sleep.
We Can Do Hard Things
The Science of Healing Heartbreak with Florence Williams
You know, it helps with that. But it does dull the perception of beauty. And I think that that's a really interesting point. But, you know, Glennon, I don't think you're giving yourself enough credit because I remember reading in your book how in the middle of your heartbreak, you went to the beach and you sat and you looked. I think it was the sunrise.
We Can Do Hard Things
The Science of Healing Heartbreak with Florence Williams
She's feeling it somewhere.
We Can Do Hard Things
The Science of Healing Heartbreak with Florence Williams
There are so many metaphors, cycles, change. There's so much science now of what happens to our bodies when we're in a beautiful nature space. And it does put our nervous systems in a much happier place. You know, we know that it calms our respiration. We know that it reduces our stress hormones. We know that it can even regulate our blood sugar. Food tastes better outside.
We Can Do Hard Things
The Science of Healing Heartbreak with Florence Williams
That's kind of the famous sort of cliche. But it's probably true because our digestive system is getting into a more relaxed state. How many of us just mindlessly eat in the car or whatever? But when we're outside, we're breathing. We're slowing down. It's in those places that the healing can start to happen, right? We can't be healing in a threat state. We have to learn how to get out of that.
We Can Do Hard Things
The Science of Healing Heartbreak with Florence Williams
So that was one of the lessons.
We Can Do Hard Things
The Science of Healing Heartbreak with Florence Williams
Yes, you're right. I mean, for so long, I was like, what happened? What's going on? What happened? What happened? What happened? Was it this? Was it that? Was it this? Was it that? And while I was researching awe, what is awe? What is the science of awe? I want to talk to all the researchers who know all about awe now that I need to become someone who finds it more easily. right?
We Can Do Hard Things
The Science of Healing Heartbreak with Florence Williams
And this was like a critical piece of my recovery. And one of the scientists I talked to said, well, we think that openness and your ability to find awe is actually related to your curiosity. It's related to your sort of being alive to the idea of mystery. And that is the opposite of someone who's like, well, what happened? What happened? What happened? I need to know what happened.
We Can Do Hard Things
The Science of Healing Heartbreak with Florence Williams
If you're someone who can accept mystery, you can accept the gray areas of life. You know, not everything is black and white. Some of us are more prone to look at the world as black and white. Those are not the ones who find awe. It's the ones who are able to be opened, to mystery, be more curious. It's those of us who don't have to have a need for closure.
We Can Do Hard Things
The Science of Healing Heartbreak with Florence Williams
And of course, when you're heartbroken, all you want is closure. So I had to learn not to need closure. Yes. And so I was very motivated to be like, okay, maybe I can accept that I'm not going to know all the answers. And for a science journalist, I think that's a hard thing to accept. Yeah.
We Can Do Hard Things
The Science of Healing Heartbreak with Florence Williams
And that's beautiful that you were able to see it, which shows that you are someone, Glennon, who sees beauty. You're trained to do it. And I think what was so wildly hopeful about talking to the psychologist was that she said you can train yourself to do it. And there are lots of little tips, you know, and ways to do it that we can talk about.
We Can Do Hard Things
The Science of Healing Heartbreak with Florence Williams
But your brain automatically goes to that beautiful spot.
We Can Do Hard Things
The Science of Healing Heartbreak with Florence Williams
Are they sisters? I think that's really perceptive. I think certainly there's a Venn diagram of heartbreak and awe where there's a big spot in the middle. Unfortunately, one of the things I learned is that not everyone gets through heartbreak. and really does open their heart and sort of, you know, comes out the other side with this, what we call post-traumatic growth.
We Can Do Hard Things
The Science of Healing Heartbreak with Florence Williams
We know that sort of 15% of people, you know, who go through heartbreak really don't get over it. And those are the ones who will get sick and who will die younger. And that's part of what also really motivated me to write this book. You know, if I can encourage people to take this seriously enough to prioritize healing then that will be really doing something.
We Can Do Hard Things
The Science of Healing Heartbreak with Florence Williams
Because a lot of us still put it in a box and keep drinking, don't work through it, don't work on themselves, don't reflect, don't do the necessary work. And they're not going to have the sort of like beauty and awe on the other side that is possible and so beautiful about the heartbreak experience. So
We Can Do Hard Things
The Science of Healing Heartbreak with Florence Williams
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We Can Do Hard Things
The Science of Healing Heartbreak with Florence Williams
Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.
We Can Do Hard Things
The Science of Healing Heartbreak with Florence Williams
Thank you. that will make us more resilient.
We Can Do Hard Things
The Science of Healing Heartbreak with Florence Williams
Me too. God, I feel like that just blew my mind. That was just like a little hug.
We Can Do Hard Things
The Science of Healing Heartbreak with Florence Williams
I actually met the man who would become my husband the very first day of college. So I am 18 years old. I am a puppy. And he was so cute and handsome and nice and fun and all the things. We didn't start dating right away. It took a few weeks before we actually started dating. He was a senior and I was a freshman. And I had a huge crush on him, you know, that huge crush. And Everything was great.
We Can Do Hard Things
The Science of Healing Heartbreak with Florence Williams
And really, we had a wonderful time. I mean, we dated for seven years until we got married. Then I think we were married about seven years before kids arrived, two beautiful children. We lived out west mostly in Colorado, and we had go-go careers, and we had a lot of fun. skiing and kayaking. And I felt very safe with him because he was very experienced in these sports and pursuits.
We Can Do Hard Things
The Science of Healing Heartbreak with Florence Williams
I felt like he could rescue me. And he did actually occasionally. And it was really great. And then I think, you know, when kids arrive, things get harder as they do. Real life sort of sets in, you know, deadlines and parenting small children. And I think we just slowly started drifting apart. You know, it's hard to tease out really what went wrong.
We Can Do Hard Things
The Science of Healing Heartbreak with Florence Williams
All I can say is that it felt more like parallel play and less like play together. And I think I was very kind of a realist. Like, yes, this happens in a marriage. You have periods where you don't feel so connected. You have periods where you do, they come and go. And even though sometimes, even often, I felt not so connected to him from a heart space perspective. I loved our life.
We Can Do Hard Things
The Science of Healing Heartbreak with Florence Williams
I loved our family. I was very attached to the way things were. I still kind of had that general sense of safety until
We Can Do Hard Things
The Science of Healing Heartbreak with Florence Williams
Yeah, he hands me his phone because there's a message about his father who's not feeling well. He's in the hospital. But instead of seeing a message from his brother, which is what I expected, I see a message from my husband to another woman. And it has the word love in it. It has... I don't know. I can't even remember all the words, but it was like the floor sort of dropped from my body.
We Can Do Hard Things
The Science of Healing Heartbreak with Florence Williams
You know, that feeling where your stomach just goes through the floor and you are very confused. And I do know that feeling, sister. I do. Yeah. I'm sorry, you know the feeling. I think many of us do. And then the doorbell rings, you know, and I'm like, oh, okay, I'm going to have to compartmentalize and deal with this later. And I tried to sort of, you know, muscle my way through this dinner.
We Can Do Hard Things
The Science of Healing Heartbreak with Florence Williams
I finished making the salad, you know, put it on the table. At some point later, I managed to kind of grab his phone, which didn't have a passcode on it. And really read the rest of the message, read some other messages. And yeah, that was the beginning. Yeah, that was the beginning.
We Can Do Hard Things
The Science of Healing Heartbreak with Florence Williams
I think there were a couple of things that are really salient in my mind, but one of them is, well, I don't want to upset the apple cart. Let's just try to keep going. And that wasn't what I wanted to hear. You know, what I wanted to hear was, I still love you. I care about making this work. And it was more like, I don't want to upset the apple cart. So that, that was the first blow.
We Can Do Hard Things
The Science of Healing Heartbreak with Florence Williams
And then eventually there was another one where he said, I feel like I really need to go find my soulmate. Yeah.
We Can Do Hard Things
The Science of Healing Heartbreak with Florence Williams
Not coming back from that one.
We Can Do Hard Things
The Science of Healing Heartbreak with Florence Williams
Yeah. And I think, you know, you're right to sort of point to our friends or when we see other people going through heartbreak. I know I had never experienced it before. And I always thought when my friends were going through this that they were being sort of dramatic. You know, it's like, oh, obviously he wasn't the right guy or wasn't the right girl. Just get over it.
We Can Do Hard Things
The Science of Healing Heartbreak with Florence Williams
you know, why are you being so dramatic? And then when it happened to me, I really sort of understood the drama because I felt it so, you know, so intensely in my body. I couldn't sleep. I lost 20 pounds, like very quickly. I felt like I had been, like my body had been plugged into an amplifier. You know, there's this kind of like buzzing alarm state and
We Can Do Hard Things
The Science of Healing Heartbreak with Florence Williams
And it really did feel like a threat state. And as I researched this, I came to understand more about why I was feeling those things. But I was so surprised by the physiological reaction. And that's where I was like, I want to find out what's happening because I haven't really heard about this. Like, why am I feeling this in my body so intensely? Why is it so hard to not feel it?
We Can Do Hard Things
The Science of Healing Heartbreak with Florence Williams
And what is going on? How do I get out of this? Because I'm also, I started getting sick too. That's the other thing. Yeah.
We Can Do Hard Things
The Science of Healing Heartbreak with Florence Williams
Yes. I mean, I was diagnosed with type one diabetes, you know, at age 50, which is very unusual. Usually it's that, you know, it used to be called juvenile diabetes. It's an autoimmune disease. I ended up with several autoimmune diseases. And so there became this urgency, not just to sort of feel better emotionally, but to feel better physically.
We Can Do Hard Things
The Science of Healing Heartbreak with Florence Williams
Well, one of the first people I ran into after my marriage exploded, I went to a conference where I was a speaker at actually the Aspen Ideas Festival. And Helen Fisher was there, who's this biological anthropologist. It's a completely delightful woman in her 70s who writes a lot about the neurochemistry of falling in love. But she also writes a little bit about what happens on the other side.
We Can Do Hard Things
The Science of Healing Heartbreak with Florence Williams
And I met her and I said, oh my God, Helen, you know, I've just, my 25 year marriage just ended and I'd love to talk to you about it. And she said, well, are you losing weight? And I said, yes. And she said, are you not sleeping? And I said, yes. And she said, okay, I can tell you exactly what's happening.
We Can Do Hard Things
The Science of Healing Heartbreak with Florence Williams
And the first thing she told me is that our brains feel emotional pain in almost the exact same pathways, the exact same neurons that register physical pain. So what that tells you is that our sort of animal bodies take emotional pain incredibly seriously.
We Can Do Hard Things
The Science of Healing Heartbreak with Florence Williams
You know, to be abandoned or to be cast out of your kin group, you know, deep in our Pleistocene past meant that we were physically threatened because all of a sudden we were on our own trying to survive. And so our bodies register that threat as something, you know, Deeply, deeply problematic. And then I met another scientist who's a neuroimmunologist at UCLA.
We Can Do Hard Things
The Science of Healing Heartbreak with Florence Williams
And he said, yeah, you know, I study the white blood cells of people who feel lonely. And we know that people who feel lonely die earlier. They suffer from more chronic disease. And he said, I am actually looking at our blood cells, which are part of our immune system, to find out how they know, how they sort of listen to our social state, and then what they do in response to that.
We Can Do Hard Things
The Science of Healing Heartbreak with Florence Williams
And one of the things they do, and I think this is so interesting, is our immune system sort of up-regulates for a threat from bacteriological agents. And it down-regulates for things like viruses because if we're alone, we're more likely to, say, be attacked by a predator or to fall out of a tree and have to take care of it by ourselves and be bleeding.
We Can Do Hard Things
The Science of Healing Heartbreak with Florence Williams
Yeah. So our bodies are pumping out all this inflammation because it's preparing our bodies for attack, which is very adaptive and helpful and wonderful. If you are, in fact, walking through a jungle by yourself, you know, for a short period of time.
We Can Do Hard Things
The Science of Healing Heartbreak with Florence Williams
So it really blew my mind to think that our cells are listening for loneliness. Yes, that's so sweet and so sad. Right. Our cells are trying to take care of us. But of course, if we're in a chronic state of heartbreak or rejection or loneliness, it's not as adaptive over the long period to have all this inflammation messing us up.