Eric Puchner

A long time. I labor over my sentences. I write them and rewrite them and rewrite them.

A long time. I labor over my sentences. I write them and rewrite them and rewrite them.

I'm never so happy when I'm rewriting a sentence. I mean, I love my family, too. I... But it does make me uniquely happy for some reason.

I'm never so happy when I'm rewriting a sentence. I mean, I love my family, too. I... But it does make me uniquely happy for some reason.

Yeah. Yeah. I think a lot about male friendship. I have... I think a little bit like Garrett and Charlie, who are the two main male characters in the book, have a sort of friendship in college that I never really found in college. I didn't find it until I was later. I never really understood how to talk to most men in a way that they understood.

Yeah. Yeah. I think a lot about male friendship. I have... I think a little bit like Garrett and Charlie, who are the two main male characters in the book, have a sort of friendship in college that I never really found in college. I didn't find it until I was later. I never really understood how to talk to most men in a way that they understood.

So it wasn't until later and I went to grad school and then I was at Stanford for a while doing a fellowship there that I made the best male friends of my life. But they're all writers, you know, and we have a common language, I think.

So it wasn't until later and I went to grad school and then I was at Stanford for a while doing a fellowship there that I made the best male friends of my life. But they're all writers, you know, and we have a common language, I think.

We like sentences. Yeah. But I also I also think that so much of male friendship revolves around like wanting to say something to that person like. I love you, man. You're amazing. You're terrific. You're really important to me.

We like sentences. Yeah. But I also I also think that so much of male friendship revolves around like wanting to say something to that person like. I love you, man. You're amazing. You're terrific. You're really important to me.

Yeah, exactly, exactly. Because being that sort of direct can be misinterpreted, I guess. And so you have to sort of communicate that in subtler ways.

Yeah, exactly, exactly. Because being that sort of direct can be misinterpreted, I guess. And so you have to sort of communicate that in subtler ways.

The rhythm of your... A song without words. I mean, when you're hanging out with your male friends, you can insult each other, and it's like, I love you. Right?

The rhythm of your... A song without words. I mean, when you're hanging out with your male friends, you can insult each other, and it's like, I love you. Right?

Yeah, right. And you're lucky.

Yeah, right. And you're lucky.

So it's not the words, the words that you're saying to your male friends. That's just sort of gibberish. It's jokey. It's banter. It's insult humor, right? But then there is like the rhythm of your speech, of the conversations, of all the times that you've spent together doing various things. That's in the background. And that is sort of the heft of the friendship.

So it's not the words, the words that you're saying to your male friends. That's just sort of gibberish. It's jokey. It's banter. It's insult humor, right? But then there is like the rhythm of your speech, of the conversations, of all the times that you've spent together doing various things. That's in the background. And that is sort of the heft of the friendship.

That's the karaoke track that doesn't change.

That's the karaoke track that doesn't change.

I'm glad I could explain it.

I'm glad I could explain it.

I actually was writing the novel and started writing the novel more seriously after my mom died. My mom had Alzheimer's for 10 years, and it was really horrific, actually. So I was feeling that very much, and it's all I could think about. So Cece's plot, her backstory, and the death of her mom when she was young, that didn't happen to me. My mom died. fairly recently.

I actually was writing the novel and started writing the novel more seriously after my mom died. My mom had Alzheimer's for 10 years, and it was really horrific, actually. So I was feeling that very much, and it's all I could think about. So Cece's plot, her backstory, and the death of her mom when she was young, that didn't happen to me. My mom died. fairly recently.

But, yeah, it was important to me. And then, of course, there's another death in the book, which happens skiing. And I'm a lifelong skier. I sort of kind of grew up in Utah, because so much of my family lives there. And I've had both my brother and my sister have seen people die in avalanches. They're really serious. They go hella skiing, do all this serious skiing.

But, yeah, it was important to me. And then, of course, there's another death in the book, which happens skiing. And I'm a lifelong skier. I sort of kind of grew up in Utah, because so much of my family lives there. And I've had both my brother and my sister have seen people die in avalanches. They're really serious. They go hella skiing, do all this serious skiing.

And so I was also thinking about that kind of loss too. Sudden, very sudden loss.

And so I was also thinking about that kind of loss too. Sudden, very sudden loss.

I just want to say I loved hearing you read that sentence. Will you do my audio book? That was wonderful. No, I haven't cracked the code of marriage. I mean, I think that marriage is everything. It's those moments and it's the moments when you feel incredibly connected. I think there's a moment in the book where...

I just want to say I loved hearing you read that sentence. Will you do my audio book? That was wonderful. No, I haven't cracked the code of marriage. I mean, I think that marriage is everything. It's those moments and it's the moments when you feel incredibly connected. I think there's a moment in the book where...

Garrett becomes a wildlife biologist, and he's thinking about sort of occasionally being attracted to his partners who come up and work with him. And he uses this equipment to track wolverines, and he thinks about using sort of like satellite equipment to track the future.

Garrett becomes a wildlife biologist, and he's thinking about sort of occasionally being attracted to his partners who come up and work with him. And he uses this equipment to track wolverines, and he thinks about using sort of like satellite equipment to track the future.

And he always, like, says, like, I try to, like, find myself 10 years in the future, and I think, would this be a good idea to cheat on my wife? And this person said, no, it's a terrible idea, right? Even if you're feeling incredibly estranged from your spouse. And so I think that...

And he always, like, says, like, I try to, like, find myself 10 years in the future, and I think, would this be a good idea to cheat on my wife? And this person said, no, it's a terrible idea, right? Even if you're feeling incredibly estranged from your spouse. And so I think that...

One of the things that makes marriage wonderful for me, I mean, I speak for myself and deeply meaningful, is that you have this commitment that informs everything you do. And even when it's the really hard times that you're going through, that commitment sees you through. And I can't think of anything more beautiful in life, honestly, than committing yourself to a person despite having hardship.

One of the things that makes marriage wonderful for me, I mean, I speak for myself and deeply meaningful, is that you have this commitment that informs everything you do. And even when it's the really hard times that you're going through, that commitment sees you through. And I can't think of anything more beautiful in life, honestly, than committing yourself to a person despite having hardship.

Wow, that's a beautiful question, and thank you. My husband thanks you, too. Yeah.

Wow, that's a beautiful question, and thank you. My husband thanks you, too. Yeah.

Wow.

Wow.

I feel like I can die happy now. Wow. That's wonderful. I totally forgot what the original question was, however.

I feel like I can die happy now. Wow. That's wonderful. I totally forgot what the original question was, however.

I think it helped me see my marriage in the way that I have always seen it. And I think it was healthy to sort of interrogate what marriage is in the book. And to have a character like Garrett who begins by saying, like, you know, oh, God, why would you want to get married? It's just a bourgeois construct, you know. And he sort of comes around.

I think it helped me see my marriage in the way that I have always seen it. And I think it was healthy to sort of interrogate what marriage is in the book. And to have a character like Garrett who begins by saying, like, you know, oh, God, why would you want to get married? It's just a bourgeois construct, you know. And he sort of comes around.

And it's interesting because my wife and I, we never thought we'd actually get married. We lived together for years before we actually got married. How many years? We've been together for close to 30 years. We've been married for 20. So we never thought we wanted to actually tie the knot. And then we said, oh, well, let's just do it so we can have a big party with all our friends.

And it's interesting because my wife and I, we never thought we'd actually get married. We lived together for years before we actually got married. How many years? We've been together for close to 30 years. We've been married for 20. So we never thought we wanted to actually tie the knot. And then we said, oh, well, let's just do it so we can have a big party with all our friends.

And also there was health insurance and that sort of thing. And we did it, and it actually did change something. You know, we were both surprised. We suddenly had that extra feeling of just, like, security and love that we didn't have before.

And also there was health insurance and that sort of thing. And we did it, and it actually did change something. You know, we were both surprised. We suddenly had that extra feeling of just, like, security and love that we didn't have before.

She may have come to hate my sentences. She read my book so many times for me. We read each other's work all the time. But, yeah, I hope that answers your question to a certain degree.

She may have come to hate my sentences. She read my book so many times for me. We read each other's work all the time. But, yeah, I hope that answers your question to a certain degree.

That's an excellent question and a very sort of writerly question. Yeah, we think about that stuff all the time, right? What do you leave on the page and what do you elide? I write my novels the way most of my friends write novels, which is you write an exploratory draft, your first draft. There's an E.L. Doctorow quote where he says, writing a novel is like driving at night in the fog.

That's an excellent question and a very sort of writerly question. Yeah, we think about that stuff all the time, right? What do you leave on the page and what do you elide? I write my novels the way most of my friends write novels, which is you write an exploratory draft, your first draft. There's an E.L. Doctorow quote where he says, writing a novel is like driving at night in the fog.

You can only see as far as your headlights. And that's always how I feel. So I'm always struck when I read a quote from, like, Nabokov or something who says, oh, you need to plan out your entire novel in advance or you're not a real writer. I'm like, I don't know anybody who does that. If you don't surprise yourself, you're not going to surprise the reader.

You can only see as far as your headlights. And that's always how I feel. So I'm always struck when I read a quote from, like, Nabokov or something who says, oh, you need to plan out your entire novel in advance or you're not a real writer. I'm like, I don't know anybody who does that. If you don't surprise yourself, you're not going to surprise the reader.

And the characters aren't going to come alive in the way that you want them to come. You want them to come alive and start doing things that you didn't expect. That's what's fun for me in the writing process. And where are they, like, alive in your head? Is it like living with voices? Yes, it is. I mean, you walk around.

And the characters aren't going to come alive in the way that you want them to come. You want them to come alive and start doing things that you didn't expect. That's what's fun for me in the writing process. And where are they, like, alive in your head? Is it like living with voices? Yes, it is. I mean, you walk around.

If you're deep in a novel, it's very aggravating for your wife, but very fun because you walk around and you have this entire population in your head doing things. You go for a run and a whole chapter writes itself because Cece decides to do something you didn't expect.

If you're deep in a novel, it's very aggravating for your wife, but very fun because you walk around and you have this entire population in your head doing things. You go for a run and a whole chapter writes itself because Cece decides to do something you didn't expect.

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Yeah, and I don't have a photographic memory or anything. So, yeah, running is very important to my writing process. I think people have this sort of idea, which is not the right idea. It's a false idea that you have to actually be actively sitting in front of your computer writing. waiting for inspiration to strike. And if you leave your computer, you're not writing.

Yeah, and I don't have a photographic memory or anything. So, yeah, running is very important to my writing process. I think people have this sort of idea, which is not the right idea. It's a false idea that you have to actually be actively sitting in front of your computer writing. waiting for inspiration to strike. And if you leave your computer, you're not writing.

I think some of the most productive time I take as a writer is when I'm just walking around. I've turned off that sort of like intellectual part of my brain and some secret part of my brain is bubbling away. And so sometimes I go for a run and it's like teleportation. I'm immediately back at my house.

I think some of the most productive time I take as a writer is when I'm just walking around. I've turned off that sort of like intellectual part of my brain and some secret part of my brain is bubbling away. And so sometimes I go for a run and it's like teleportation. I'm immediately back at my house.

I don't remember the run at all, but I have like a whole new chapter in my head and I have to rush upstairs and run furiously right now.

I don't remember the run at all, but I have like a whole new chapter in my head and I have to rush upstairs and run furiously right now.

I do the actual composing on a computer, but I jot a lot of notes down by hand.

I do the actual composing on a computer, but I jot a lot of notes down by hand.

Just something I feel. I mean, it's hard for me to say where it came from. I just have always sort of felt that. You feel things so deeply when you're that age. And the world is like a sensory experience all the time. And emotionally, it's such a charged time.

Just something I feel. I mean, it's hard for me to say where it came from. I just have always sort of felt that. You feel things so deeply when you're that age. And the world is like a sensory experience all the time. And emotionally, it's such a charged time.

Thank you. That's, that means a lot to me. Thank you.

Thank you. That's, that means a lot to me. Thank you.

I did. I always I knew I wanted to be a writer at a very young age, but it wasn't until I was a little bit older. I started writing very bad poetry. We had an old typewriter and I would clack away and I loved E Cummings. So, of course, I didn't use any punctuation or anything. And I remember writing this is when I was a bit older, 13 or something. And I wrote a poem called 3 a.m.

I did. I always I knew I wanted to be a writer at a very young age, but it wasn't until I was a little bit older. I started writing very bad poetry. We had an old typewriter and I would clack away and I loved E Cummings. So, of course, I didn't use any punctuation or anything. And I remember writing this is when I was a bit older, 13 or something. And I wrote a poem called 3 a.m.

and Train on Sacks. Coltrane, right? John Coltrane. Because I liked jazz. And I'd never been up till 3 a.m. in my life. But I had this idea of, you know, God, it's so cool to be a writer, right? So you stay up till 3 a.m. and you listen to really great jazz and you do that sort of thing. But then my older brother is about 10 years older than me. And I must have been about eight.

and Train on Sacks. Coltrane, right? John Coltrane. Because I liked jazz. And I'd never been up till 3 a.m. in my life. But I had this idea of, you know, God, it's so cool to be a writer, right? So you stay up till 3 a.m. and you listen to really great jazz and you do that sort of thing. But then my older brother is about 10 years older than me. And I must have been about eight.

And for Christmas, he got the collective stories of Ray Bradbury. He has a lot of stories, those of you who know Bradbury. And it was like this big. And it was one of those old tomes from the 70s that has the author's photo covered the entire back of the book. And so I was starting... Before that, when I read stories, I thought the language just fell out of the sky miraculously or something.

And for Christmas, he got the collective stories of Ray Bradbury. He has a lot of stories, those of you who know Bradbury. And it was like this big. And it was one of those old tomes from the 70s that has the author's photo covered the entire back of the book. And so I was starting... Before that, when I read stories, I thought the language just fell out of the sky miraculously or something.

I didn't think about authorship, that somebody actually wrote those words. This is the first time I kept looking at the back and there was Ray Bradbury's like, oh, my God, he wrote this sentence and he wrote this sentence. Wow. I mean, and I was like, I want to do that. And that's when I first.

I didn't think about authorship, that somebody actually wrote those words. This is the first time I kept looking at the back and there was Ray Bradbury's like, oh, my God, he wrote this sentence and he wrote this sentence. Wow. I mean, and I was like, I want to do that. And that's when I first.

Oh, absolutely. Yeah. I think the biggest thing I've learned from being a parent, and I've loved being a parent most of the time, One of the biggest things I've learned is that you love your kids and you have an idea of who they're going to become, and they don't become that. There's no kid on earth who, like, you know, adhered to the idea of their identity that their parents had for them.

Oh, absolutely. Yeah. I think the biggest thing I've learned from being a parent, and I've loved being a parent most of the time, One of the biggest things I've learned is that you love your kids and you have an idea of who they're going to become, and they don't become that. There's no kid on earth who, like, you know, adhered to the idea of their identity that their parents had for them.

But then you love them anyway. They're completely different people than you expected, and you have to love them anyway. And that's been, like, really profound for me.

But then you love them anyway. They're completely different people than you expected, and you have to love them anyway. And that's been, like, really profound for me.

Yeah, that's a wonderful question and very well put. Yeah, I really didn't feel like I had a choice but to sort of write about my mother. She was occupying my thoughts constantly. So one of the things I tried to do was to capture dementia in the way that it really is. I don't know if I accomplished that or not, but much of that stuff in the book actually happened.

Yeah, that's a wonderful question and very well put. Yeah, I really didn't feel like I had a choice but to sort of write about my mother. She was occupying my thoughts constantly. So one of the things I tried to do was to capture dementia in the way that it really is. I don't know if I accomplished that or not, but much of that stuff in the book actually happened.

But I also there's a section, a brief section of the book where I enter my mom's my mom. God, she's not my mom. I'm sorry. I enter Cece's point of view and and try to imagine what it must have been like for her. And obviously, Cece is very different from my mother and Cece's thoughts are very different from my mother's. But that was a really important step for me to take.

But I also there's a section, a brief section of the book where I enter my mom's my mom. God, she's not my mom. I'm sorry. I enter Cece's point of view and and try to imagine what it must have been like for her. And obviously, Cece is very different from my mother and Cece's thoughts are very different from my mother's. But that was a really important step for me to take.

I wanted her to have a voice. while she was in the throes of dementia as well. And it's one of my favorite passages in the book.

I wanted her to have a voice. while she was in the throes of dementia as well. And it's one of my favorite passages in the book.

I think everybody in this room has regrets, don't they? Yeah, I mean, one of the things I wanted to do in the book... Y'all do?

I think everybody in this room has regrets, don't they? Yeah, I mean, one of the things I wanted to do in the book... Y'all do?

Well, I'm somebody who often experiences regret. I'm not saying that the regret is actually apt or well-placed, but I can't even order dinner without feeling like, oh, I ordered the wrong thing immediately after I ordered it. So... But I think it's a sort of dangerous mentality to have this kind of life is elsewhere mentality.

Well, I'm somebody who often experiences regret. I'm not saying that the regret is actually apt or well-placed, but I can't even order dinner without feeling like, oh, I ordered the wrong thing immediately after I ordered it. So... But I think it's a sort of dangerous mentality to have this kind of life is elsewhere mentality.

And that's sort of what I mean, it's a main theme of the book is this these sort of trap doors of regret that you can fall into when actually, you know, if if Cece had ended up marrying Charlie, she would have had a different life and she would have had regrets.

And that's sort of what I mean, it's a main theme of the book is this these sort of trap doors of regret that you can fall into when actually, you know, if if Cece had ended up marrying Charlie, she would have had a different life and she would have had regrets.

spoiler that was a spoiler okay that was a spoiler so um yeah i mean i think life part of learning how to live is learning how to live with regret and not let it overshadow um your happiness um it's so easy to sort of drift to that other life you might have had well i think she would have had great regret if she'd married him don't you Probably.

spoiler that was a spoiler okay that was a spoiler so um yeah i mean i think life part of learning how to live is learning how to live with regret and not let it overshadow um your happiness um it's so easy to sort of drift to that other life you might have had well i think she would have had great regret if she'd married him don't you Probably.

Okay. Okay. Well, it didn't come to me all at once. Okay. But the story is about a lake house in Montana, northwestern Montana, in the fictional town of Salish, Montana. The lake is actually based on a real lake, Flathead Lake in Montana. And the house in the book is based on a house that I have been going to for the past 25 years every summer with my family.

Okay. Okay. Well, it didn't come to me all at once. Okay. But the story is about a lake house in Montana, northwestern Montana, in the fictional town of Salish, Montana. The lake is actually based on a real lake, Flathead Lake in Montana. And the house in the book is based on a house that I have been going to for the past 25 years every summer with my family.

Well, I'll just start by saying a disclaimer. I'm terrible at titles. Like I have...

Well, I'll just start by saying a disclaimer. I'm terrible at titles. Like I have...

They should farm it out to somebody else who's a title specialist. That's their job, right? So, actually, the original title was Old Light. Old Light? Old Light. No. Yes, sir. I rest my case, right?

They should farm it out to somebody else who's a title specialist. That's their job, right? So, actually, the original title was Old Light. Old Light? Old Light. No. Yes, sir. I rest my case, right?

Okay, I'm so glad I changed it. Okay, go ahead.

Okay, I'm so glad I changed it. Okay, go ahead.

It comes from a poem, but it's...

It comes from a poem, but it's...

No, you're absolutely right. So, yeah, Dream State, I mean, it has the obvious sort of literal meaning, which is like, this is a state that's beautiful, Montana. But it's also getting less beautiful in many different ways. And so it's an ironic title. But then, as I said before, I was interested in this idea of life seeming more and more like a dream state.

No, you're absolutely right. So, yeah, Dream State, I mean, it has the obvious sort of literal meaning, which is like, this is a state that's beautiful, Montana. But it's also getting less beautiful in many different ways. And so it's an ironic title. But then, as I said before, I was interested in this idea of life seeming more and more like a dream state.

these days um and that has to do with climate change but it also has to do with the way that we seem to live our lives so much online partly um so yeah it just seemed to resonate in that way and then and then with the final chapter i won't say anything to actually be a spoiler but um there's a sense of a whole nother a whole nother life that could have been lived that sort of you know reflects like a dream and so that all of those things yeah

these days um and that has to do with climate change but it also has to do with the way that we seem to live our lives so much online partly um so yeah it just seemed to resonate in that way and then and then with the final chapter i won't say anything to actually be a spoiler but um there's a sense of a whole nother a whole nother life that could have been lived that sort of you know reflects like a dream and so that all of those things yeah

Well, I think I was trying to get at the fact that almost despite herself, Cece finds happiness in the routine of her marriage. And I feel that. And I think as we get older, I think, I don't know, I don't want to speak for anybody else. I feel that more and more, that it's actually, it's not the exciting stuff. It's sort of the kind of banal stuff.

Well, I think I was trying to get at the fact that almost despite herself, Cece finds happiness in the routine of her marriage. And I feel that. And I think as we get older, I think, I don't know, I don't want to speak for anybody else. I feel that more and more, that it's actually, it's not the exciting stuff. It's sort of the kind of banal stuff.

It's the waking up, having coffee with your wife, reading the paper stuff together, sitting on the front porch. That's happiness.

It's the waking up, having coffee with your wife, reading the paper stuff together, sitting on the front porch. That's happiness.

Yeah, that's the lullaby. And there's a way that I think when you have an incredibly close relationship with somebody, you change the world. I mean, things, because you have this connection, you see things in a way that no one else really sees them. It's idiosyncratic and unique. And I think that's what I was trying to get at there.

Yeah, that's the lullaby. And there's a way that I think when you have an incredibly close relationship with somebody, you change the world. I mean, things, because you have this connection, you see things in a way that no one else really sees them. It's idiosyncratic and unique. And I think that's what I was trying to get at there.

It's my wife's great-grandfather's house. He built it. And it was out of the family for a while, but then it came back into the family. The story about the house that it's based on is that my wife's great-grandfather was a Lithuanian Jew who immigrated to Montana.

It's my wife's great-grandfather's house. He built it. And it was out of the family for a while, but then it came back into the family. The story about the house that it's based on is that my wife's great-grandfather was a Lithuanian Jew who immigrated to Montana.

I teach at Johns Hopkins University and I I get terrible reception in my office, so I was crouched in my car in this kind of ugly parking lot, and then it was Oprah on the line. I almost dropped the phone. I was completely astonished.

I teach at Johns Hopkins University and I I get terrible reception in my office, so I was crouched in my car in this kind of ugly parking lot, and then it was Oprah on the line. I almost dropped the phone. I was completely astonished.

and was so destitute he lived in a packing crate for a while and then ended up starting a dry goods store and making some money that way and ended up building this house. He lived in Glasgow, Montana, but he ended up building this house on Flathead Lake in the early 1930s. It took a long time because apparently the carpenter was a total drunk.

and was so destitute he lived in a packing crate for a while and then ended up starting a dry goods store and making some money that way and ended up building this house. He lived in Glasgow, Montana, but he ended up building this house on Flathead Lake in the early 1930s. It took a long time because apparently the carpenter was a total drunk.

And if you go and you look at the house, there's not, whenever someone comes to do work on the house, there's not a single right angle in the entire house. But it's a house that is really near and dear to my heart and that I love. Is the house still there? Oh, it's still there. We go. I'm going this summer.

And if you go and you look at the house, there's not, whenever someone comes to do work on the house, there's not a single right angle in the entire house. But it's a house that is really near and dear to my heart and that I love. Is the house still there? Oh, it's still there. We go. I'm going this summer.

So we go there every summer.

So we go there every summer.

Well, thank you for saying that. You know, writing a novel is really hard. It's never going to be perfect. And one of the wonderful things about a novel is its ambition and that it can afford, in the way a short story can, it can afford to be a little bit messy. So when I was thinking about this novel, I was thinking about something that actually happened.

Well, thank you for saying that. You know, writing a novel is really hard. It's never going to be perfect. And one of the wonderful things about a novel is its ambition and that it can afford, in the way a short story can, it can afford to be a little bit messy. So when I was thinking about this novel, I was thinking about something that actually happened.

which was this kind of awful wedding story, and I was actually the officiant in this wedding. I won't tell you who it is, but people who I know well, and they had a wedding at the house in Montana in which everyone got norovirus, which features in the book, but if you don't know what norovirus is, it's an incredibly infectious stomach flu.

which was this kind of awful wedding story, and I was actually the officiant in this wedding. I won't tell you who it is, but people who I know well, and they had a wedding at the house in Montana in which everyone got norovirus, which features in the book, but if you don't know what norovirus is, it's an incredibly infectious stomach flu.

Oh, yeah?

Oh, yeah?

It's super contagious.

It's super contagious.

I don't know how Charlie made it do it. You know, what happened in the actual wedding was that one of the flower girls threw up on the way down the aisle because she was sick.

I don't know how Charlie made it do it. You know, what happened in the actual wedding was that one of the flower girls threw up on the way down the aisle because she was sick.

Um... It is a good way to lose weight, definitely.

Um... It is a good way to lose weight, definitely.

Really quickly. Go ahead.

Really quickly. Go ahead.

Well, it's in the middle of a wedding. You can't stop a wedding. And the groom was also green because he had it, but he didn't want to admit to having it. And then afterwards, much like in the book, they had hired a square dance band to play. And so everyone was do-si-do-ing and passing the norovirus from one to the other to the other to the other.

Well, it's in the middle of a wedding. You can't stop a wedding. And the groom was also green because he had it, but he didn't want to admit to having it. And then afterwards, much like in the book, they had hired a square dance band to play. And so everyone was do-si-do-ing and passing the norovirus from one to the other to the other to the other.

And so I had this in mind as like something I wanted to sort of head toward as the kind of fulcrum of the book. And I knew I wanted to write about that setting. Um, because I love that setting so much.

And so I had this in mind as like something I wanted to sort of head toward as the kind of fulcrum of the book. And I knew I wanted to write about that setting. Um, because I love that setting so much.

Um, so yeah, I mean, I was heading towards that, that moment. I really didn't know what was going to happen after that, honestly. Um, I just knew that that was going to, everything was going to change. And I also wanted to write a sort of novel about marriage, um, a kind of marriage story, um, A marriage plot that ends with the wrong marriage. I thought that was interesting.

Um, so yeah, I mean, I was heading towards that, that moment. I really didn't know what was going to happen after that, honestly. Um, I just knew that that was going to, everything was going to change. And I also wanted to write a sort of novel about marriage, um, a kind of marriage story, um, A marriage plot that ends with the wrong marriage. I thought that was interesting.

Welcome, Eric. Thank you so much. You were so stunned when I called. I was incredibly stunned when you called. In fact, my publicist had made me think that he was just calling to talk about something kind of boring.

Welcome, Eric. Thank you so much. You were so stunned when I called. I was incredibly stunned when you called. In fact, my publicist had made me think that he was just calling to talk about something kind of boring.

It did, because I didn't... I mean, the marriage plot has been done so many times, and the epigraph of the book is from Midsummer Night's Dream. I was thinking about that sort of plot that ends in a marriage, and I thought, how can I make that original? And so I thought, well, we'll have a marriage halfway through the book, but it's not the right marriage.

It did, because I didn't... I mean, the marriage plot has been done so many times, and the epigraph of the book is from Midsummer Night's Dream. I was thinking about that sort of plot that ends in a marriage, and I thought, how can I make that original? And so I thought, well, we'll have a marriage halfway through the book, but it's not the right marriage.

And in fact, they don't get their marriage paper certified, so they don't end up being married. So I was just interested in that. And I didn't actually come up. I don't want to give anything away, but to the end of the book returns to the marriage that we see a glimpse of halfway through the book. For a long time, I didn't know how to end the book.

And in fact, they don't get their marriage paper certified, so they don't end up being married. So I was just interested in that. And I didn't actually come up. I don't want to give anything away, but to the end of the book returns to the marriage that we see a glimpse of halfway through the book. For a long time, I didn't know how to end the book.

I knew that it was spanning 50 years, that it was going into the future, that it was about this next generation as well and how they would deal with the mistakes from the past, both the sort of mistakes that the characters have made, but also the mistakes that society made. has made, but I didn't know how to end it. And I was at a writer's residency, the Otto in New York.

I knew that it was spanning 50 years, that it was going into the future, that it was about this next generation as well and how they would deal with the mistakes from the past, both the sort of mistakes that the characters have made, but also the mistakes that society made. has made, but I didn't know how to end it. And I was at a writer's residency, the Otto in New York.

And I was there for a week and I was like, I finally got this residency. I have a leave off of work and I don't know, I can't write. I don't know what to do because I can't end this thing. And then it occurred to me to go back to that original

And I was there for a week and I was like, I finally got this residency. I have a leave off of work and I don't know, I can't write. I don't know what to do because I can't end this thing. And then it occurred to me to go back to that original

wedding and to finish it and to write it as if this was a different almost like dream life that that might have occurred um and i actually started crying i was so happy that i had come up with a way to to end and the book i thought the dream life had something the dream state which is the name of the book had something to do with this um uh psychotic depression or depressive psychosis that garrett went through it had nothing to do with that no it had a lot to do with that as well um

wedding and to finish it and to write it as if this was a different almost like dream life that that might have occurred um and i actually started crying i was so happy that i had come up with a way to to end and the book i thought the dream life had something the dream state which is the name of the book had something to do with this um uh psychotic depression or depressive psychosis that garrett went through it had nothing to do with that no it had a lot to do with that as well um

Yeah, thank you for picking up on that. And there's also a moment when Jasper, who becomes a drug addict, is talking about feeling like his life is always a dream. And I just started thinking about the way that we feel like we're often sort of trapped in a dream these days. Everyone's on the Internet all the time. These awful things are happening in the world. We used to be. We're on our phones.

Yeah, thank you for picking up on that. And there's also a moment when Jasper, who becomes a drug addict, is talking about feeling like his life is always a dream. And I just started thinking about the way that we feel like we're often sort of trapped in a dream these days. Everyone's on the Internet all the time. These awful things are happening in the world. We used to be. We're on our phones.

We see that they're happening. And for Jasper, it's particularly acute because he has a heart condition. And there's something in his heart that saved him, saved his life. And so he sometimes feels that his life is dreamlike.

We see that they're happening. And for Jasper, it's particularly acute because he has a heart condition. And there's something in his heart that saved him, saved his life. And so he sometimes feels that his life is dreamlike.

I think I would have coffee with Cece. I just, I like her a lot.

I think I would have coffee with Cece. I just, I like her a lot.

Okay.

Okay.

I think she would make the best coffee. By far. Garrett is, he makes like cowboy coffee.

I think she would make the best coffee. By far. Garrett is, he makes like cowboy coffee.

Absolutely. I mean, it's partly that when you write a novel, only trouble is interesting. But also, I think one of the wonderful things about a writer is being able to empathize with people who are really struggling. And I'm interested in that in my work. I'm also interested in my life. And I wanted to write about Jasper in particular.

Absolutely. I mean, it's partly that when you write a novel, only trouble is interesting. But also, I think one of the wonderful things about a writer is being able to empathize with people who are really struggling. And I'm interested in that in my work. I'm also interested in my life. And I wanted to write about Jasper in particular.

I have two close friends of mine, my best friends in high school, both became heroin addicts. So I was interested in writing about that epidemic.

I have two close friends of mine, my best friends in high school, both became heroin addicts. So I was interested in writing about that epidemic.

That's a terrific question. I'm really drawn to novels that are ambitious in that way with their use of time. One of my favorite novels is Light Years by James Salter. Also sort of focuses on a house and a family. I guess I'm drawn to novels in which time is the antagonist because I feel that's sort of the way that our lives are led and grappling with that. reality was really important to me.

That's a terrific question. I'm really drawn to novels that are ambitious in that way with their use of time. One of my favorite novels is Light Years by James Salter. Also sort of focuses on a house and a family. I guess I'm drawn to novels in which time is the antagonist because I feel that's sort of the way that our lives are led and grappling with that. reality was really important to me.

And obviously, also, I was interested in climate change and the sort of devastating effects, particularly in the West, American West, because one of the things that's happened since we started going to this area in Montana 25 years ago is that I've watched it change dramatically. I've watched the landscape change and It's not far from Glacier National Park. It's gorgeous there.

And obviously, also, I was interested in climate change and the sort of devastating effects, particularly in the West, American West, because one of the things that's happened since we started going to this area in Montana 25 years ago is that I've watched it change dramatically. I've watched the landscape change and It's not far from Glacier National Park. It's gorgeous there.

It used to have 150 glaciers. It's down to 25. So all that snow that used to be there isn't there anymore. And so it's having an effect on all the lakes and the lake levels. It's having a huge effect on biodiversity.

It used to have 150 glaciers. It's down to 25. So all that snow that used to be there isn't there anymore. And so it's having an effect on all the lakes and the lake levels. It's having a huge effect on biodiversity.

And also with all the fires, sometimes we go there for a week or two weeks and we can't go outside for most of that time because the air quality index is like in the red and it's very unhealthy. So it's tragic what's happening there. But I wanted that to be part of the book.

And also with all the fires, sometimes we go there for a week or two weeks and we can't go outside for most of that time because the air quality index is like in the red and it's very unhealthy. So it's tragic what's happening there. But I wanted that to be part of the book.

Yeah, thank you. And you wanted it to. I did, absolutely. Oh, that's on purpose. Yes, absolutely.

Yeah, thank you. And you wanted it to. I did, absolutely. Oh, that's on purpose. Yes, absolutely.

Yeah, absolutely. I'm really interested in the sort of divide between our private and public selves. And I think one of the trickiest things in life is bridging that divide. I also think, like, what we think we want isn't necessarily what we truly want or what we should want. And I'm very interested in characters who think they want the wrong thing for themselves.

Yeah, absolutely. I'm really interested in the sort of divide between our private and public selves. And I think one of the trickiest things in life is bridging that divide. I also think, like, what we think we want isn't necessarily what we truly want or what we should want. And I'm very interested in characters who think they want the wrong thing for themselves.

And we as readers know that, no, actually, that's not what you want. With Cece, it's sort of like trying on different masks, because pediatric neurosurgeon, since she was a kid, she was sort of in love with those words. I mean, that's language. And once she got to med school, she realized, God, I hate this. This isn't fun, and I'm not interested in this.

And we as readers know that, no, actually, that's not what you want. With Cece, it's sort of like trying on different masks, because pediatric neurosurgeon, since she was a kid, she was sort of in love with those words. I mean, that's language. And once she got to med school, she realized, God, I hate this. This isn't fun, and I'm not interested in this.

So she has to change tact, but she also is confused as to, she wants to do something great in the world, and she just doesn't.

So she has to change tact, but she also is confused as to, she wants to do something great in the world, and she just doesn't.

A long time. I labor over my sentences. I write them and rewrite them and rewrite them.

I'm never so happy when I'm rewriting a sentence. I mean, I love my family, too. I... But it does make me uniquely happy for some reason.

Yeah. Yeah. I think a lot about male friendship. I have... I think a little bit like Garrett and Charlie, who are the two main male characters in the book, have a sort of friendship in college that I never really found in college. I didn't find it until I was later. I never really understood how to talk to most men in a way that they understood.

So it wasn't until later and I went to grad school and then I was at Stanford for a while doing a fellowship there that I made the best male friends of my life. But they're all writers, you know, and we have a common language, I think.

We like sentences. Yeah. But I also I also think that so much of male friendship revolves around like wanting to say something to that person like. I love you, man. You're amazing. You're terrific. You're really important to me.

Yeah, exactly, exactly. Because being that sort of direct can be misinterpreted, I guess. And so you have to sort of communicate that in subtler ways.

The rhythm of your... A song without words. I mean, when you're hanging out with your male friends, you can insult each other, and it's like, I love you. Right?

Yeah, right. And you're lucky.

So it's not the words, the words that you're saying to your male friends. That's just sort of gibberish. It's jokey. It's banter. It's insult humor, right? But then there is like the rhythm of your speech, of the conversations, of all the times that you've spent together doing various things. That's in the background. And that is sort of the heft of the friendship.

That's the karaoke track that doesn't change.

I'm glad I could explain it.

I actually was writing the novel and started writing the novel more seriously after my mom died. My mom had Alzheimer's for 10 years, and it was really horrific, actually. So I was feeling that very much, and it's all I could think about. So Cece's plot, her backstory, and the death of her mom when she was young, that didn't happen to me. My mom died. fairly recently.

But, yeah, it was important to me. And then, of course, there's another death in the book, which happens skiing. And I'm a lifelong skier. I sort of kind of grew up in Utah, because so much of my family lives there. And I've had both my brother and my sister have seen people die in avalanches. They're really serious. They go hella skiing, do all this serious skiing.

And so I was also thinking about that kind of loss too. Sudden, very sudden loss.

I just want to say I loved hearing you read that sentence. Will you do my audio book? That was wonderful. No, I haven't cracked the code of marriage. I mean, I think that marriage is everything. It's those moments and it's the moments when you feel incredibly connected. I think there's a moment in the book where...

Garrett becomes a wildlife biologist, and he's thinking about sort of occasionally being attracted to his partners who come up and work with him. And he uses this equipment to track wolverines, and he thinks about using sort of like satellite equipment to track the future.

And he always, like, says, like, I try to, like, find myself 10 years in the future, and I think, would this be a good idea to cheat on my wife? And this person said, no, it's a terrible idea, right? Even if you're feeling incredibly estranged from your spouse. And so I think that...

One of the things that makes marriage wonderful for me, I mean, I speak for myself and deeply meaningful, is that you have this commitment that informs everything you do. And even when it's the really hard times that you're going through, that commitment sees you through. And I can't think of anything more beautiful in life, honestly, than committing yourself to a person despite having hardship.

Wow, that's a beautiful question, and thank you. My husband thanks you, too. Yeah.

Wow.

I feel like I can die happy now. Wow. That's wonderful. I totally forgot what the original question was, however.

I think it helped me see my marriage in the way that I have always seen it. And I think it was healthy to sort of interrogate what marriage is in the book. And to have a character like Garrett who begins by saying, like, you know, oh, God, why would you want to get married? It's just a bourgeois construct, you know. And he sort of comes around.

And it's interesting because my wife and I, we never thought we'd actually get married. We lived together for years before we actually got married. How many years? We've been together for close to 30 years. We've been married for 20. So we never thought we wanted to actually tie the knot. And then we said, oh, well, let's just do it so we can have a big party with all our friends.

And also there was health insurance and that sort of thing. And we did it, and it actually did change something. You know, we were both surprised. We suddenly had that extra feeling of just, like, security and love that we didn't have before.

She may have come to hate my sentences. She read my book so many times for me. We read each other's work all the time. But, yeah, I hope that answers your question to a certain degree.

That's an excellent question and a very sort of writerly question. Yeah, we think about that stuff all the time, right? What do you leave on the page and what do you elide? I write my novels the way most of my friends write novels, which is you write an exploratory draft, your first draft. There's an E.L. Doctorow quote where he says, writing a novel is like driving at night in the fog.

You can only see as far as your headlights. And that's always how I feel. So I'm always struck when I read a quote from, like, Nabokov or something who says, oh, you need to plan out your entire novel in advance or you're not a real writer. I'm like, I don't know anybody who does that. If you don't surprise yourself, you're not going to surprise the reader.

And the characters aren't going to come alive in the way that you want them to come. You want them to come alive and start doing things that you didn't expect. That's what's fun for me in the writing process. And where are they, like, alive in your head? Is it like living with voices? Yes, it is. I mean, you walk around.

If you're deep in a novel, it's very aggravating for your wife, but very fun because you walk around and you have this entire population in your head doing things. You go for a run and a whole chapter writes itself because Cece decides to do something you didn't expect.

LAUGHTER

Yeah, and I don't have a photographic memory or anything. So, yeah, running is very important to my writing process. I think people have this sort of idea, which is not the right idea. It's a false idea that you have to actually be actively sitting in front of your computer writing. waiting for inspiration to strike. And if you leave your computer, you're not writing.

I think some of the most productive time I take as a writer is when I'm just walking around. I've turned off that sort of like intellectual part of my brain and some secret part of my brain is bubbling away. And so sometimes I go for a run and it's like teleportation. I'm immediately back at my house.

I don't remember the run at all, but I have like a whole new chapter in my head and I have to rush upstairs and run furiously right now.

I do the actual composing on a computer, but I jot a lot of notes down by hand.

Just something I feel. I mean, it's hard for me to say where it came from. I just have always sort of felt that. You feel things so deeply when you're that age. And the world is like a sensory experience all the time. And emotionally, it's such a charged time.

Thank you. That's, that means a lot to me. Thank you.

I did. I always I knew I wanted to be a writer at a very young age, but it wasn't until I was a little bit older. I started writing very bad poetry. We had an old typewriter and I would clack away and I loved E Cummings. So, of course, I didn't use any punctuation or anything. And I remember writing this is when I was a bit older, 13 or something. And I wrote a poem called 3 a.m.

and Train on Sacks. Coltrane, right? John Coltrane. Because I liked jazz. And I'd never been up till 3 a.m. in my life. But I had this idea of, you know, God, it's so cool to be a writer, right? So you stay up till 3 a.m. and you listen to really great jazz and you do that sort of thing. But then my older brother is about 10 years older than me. And I must have been about eight.

And for Christmas, he got the collective stories of Ray Bradbury. He has a lot of stories, those of you who know Bradbury. And it was like this big. And it was one of those old tomes from the 70s that has the author's photo covered the entire back of the book. And so I was starting... Before that, when I read stories, I thought the language just fell out of the sky miraculously or something.

I didn't think about authorship, that somebody actually wrote those words. This is the first time I kept looking at the back and there was Ray Bradbury's like, oh, my God, he wrote this sentence and he wrote this sentence. Wow. I mean, and I was like, I want to do that. And that's when I first.

Oh, absolutely. Yeah. I think the biggest thing I've learned from being a parent, and I've loved being a parent most of the time, One of the biggest things I've learned is that you love your kids and you have an idea of who they're going to become, and they don't become that. There's no kid on earth who, like, you know, adhered to the idea of their identity that their parents had for them.

But then you love them anyway. They're completely different people than you expected, and you have to love them anyway. And that's been, like, really profound for me.

Yeah, that's a wonderful question and very well put. Yeah, I really didn't feel like I had a choice but to sort of write about my mother. She was occupying my thoughts constantly. So one of the things I tried to do was to capture dementia in the way that it really is. I don't know if I accomplished that or not, but much of that stuff in the book actually happened.

But I also there's a section, a brief section of the book where I enter my mom's my mom. God, she's not my mom. I'm sorry. I enter Cece's point of view and and try to imagine what it must have been like for her. And obviously, Cece is very different from my mother and Cece's thoughts are very different from my mother's. But that was a really important step for me to take.

I wanted her to have a voice. while she was in the throes of dementia as well. And it's one of my favorite passages in the book.

I think everybody in this room has regrets, don't they? Yeah, I mean, one of the things I wanted to do in the book... Y'all do?

Well, I'm somebody who often experiences regret. I'm not saying that the regret is actually apt or well-placed, but I can't even order dinner without feeling like, oh, I ordered the wrong thing immediately after I ordered it. So... But I think it's a sort of dangerous mentality to have this kind of life is elsewhere mentality.

And that's sort of what I mean, it's a main theme of the book is this these sort of trap doors of regret that you can fall into when actually, you know, if if Cece had ended up marrying Charlie, she would have had a different life and she would have had regrets.

spoiler that was a spoiler okay that was a spoiler so um yeah i mean i think life part of learning how to live is learning how to live with regret and not let it overshadow um your happiness um it's so easy to sort of drift to that other life you might have had well i think she would have had great regret if she'd married him don't you Probably.

Okay. Okay. Well, it didn't come to me all at once. Okay. But the story is about a lake house in Montana, northwestern Montana, in the fictional town of Salish, Montana. The lake is actually based on a real lake, Flathead Lake in Montana. And the house in the book is based on a house that I have been going to for the past 25 years every summer with my family.

Well, I'll just start by saying a disclaimer. I'm terrible at titles. Like I have...

They should farm it out to somebody else who's a title specialist. That's their job, right? So, actually, the original title was Old Light. Old Light? Old Light. No. Yes, sir. I rest my case, right?

Okay, I'm so glad I changed it. Okay, go ahead.

It comes from a poem, but it's...

No, you're absolutely right. So, yeah, Dream State, I mean, it has the obvious sort of literal meaning, which is like, this is a state that's beautiful, Montana. But it's also getting less beautiful in many different ways. And so it's an ironic title. But then, as I said before, I was interested in this idea of life seeming more and more like a dream state.

these days um and that has to do with climate change but it also has to do with the way that we seem to live our lives so much online partly um so yeah it just seemed to resonate in that way and then and then with the final chapter i won't say anything to actually be a spoiler but um there's a sense of a whole nother a whole nother life that could have been lived that sort of you know reflects like a dream and so that all of those things yeah

Well, I think I was trying to get at the fact that almost despite herself, Cece finds happiness in the routine of her marriage. And I feel that. And I think as we get older, I think, I don't know, I don't want to speak for anybody else. I feel that more and more, that it's actually, it's not the exciting stuff. It's sort of the kind of banal stuff.

It's the waking up, having coffee with your wife, reading the paper stuff together, sitting on the front porch. That's happiness.

Yeah, that's the lullaby. And there's a way that I think when you have an incredibly close relationship with somebody, you change the world. I mean, things, because you have this connection, you see things in a way that no one else really sees them. It's idiosyncratic and unique. And I think that's what I was trying to get at there.

It's my wife's great-grandfather's house. He built it. And it was out of the family for a while, but then it came back into the family. The story about the house that it's based on is that my wife's great-grandfather was a Lithuanian Jew who immigrated to Montana.

I teach at Johns Hopkins University and I I get terrible reception in my office, so I was crouched in my car in this kind of ugly parking lot, and then it was Oprah on the line. I almost dropped the phone. I was completely astonished.

and was so destitute he lived in a packing crate for a while and then ended up starting a dry goods store and making some money that way and ended up building this house. He lived in Glasgow, Montana, but he ended up building this house on Flathead Lake in the early 1930s. It took a long time because apparently the carpenter was a total drunk.

And if you go and you look at the house, there's not, whenever someone comes to do work on the house, there's not a single right angle in the entire house. But it's a house that is really near and dear to my heart and that I love. Is the house still there? Oh, it's still there. We go. I'm going this summer.

So we go there every summer.

Well, thank you for saying that. You know, writing a novel is really hard. It's never going to be perfect. And one of the wonderful things about a novel is its ambition and that it can afford, in the way a short story can, it can afford to be a little bit messy. So when I was thinking about this novel, I was thinking about something that actually happened.

which was this kind of awful wedding story, and I was actually the officiant in this wedding. I won't tell you who it is, but people who I know well, and they had a wedding at the house in Montana in which everyone got norovirus, which features in the book, but if you don't know what norovirus is, it's an incredibly infectious stomach flu.

Oh, yeah?

It's super contagious.

I don't know how Charlie made it do it. You know, what happened in the actual wedding was that one of the flower girls threw up on the way down the aisle because she was sick.

Um... It is a good way to lose weight, definitely.

Really quickly. Go ahead.

Well, it's in the middle of a wedding. You can't stop a wedding. And the groom was also green because he had it, but he didn't want to admit to having it. And then afterwards, much like in the book, they had hired a square dance band to play. And so everyone was do-si-do-ing and passing the norovirus from one to the other to the other to the other.

And so I had this in mind as like something I wanted to sort of head toward as the kind of fulcrum of the book. And I knew I wanted to write about that setting. Um, because I love that setting so much.

Um, so yeah, I mean, I was heading towards that, that moment. I really didn't know what was going to happen after that, honestly. Um, I just knew that that was going to, everything was going to change. And I also wanted to write a sort of novel about marriage, um, a kind of marriage story, um, A marriage plot that ends with the wrong marriage. I thought that was interesting.

Welcome, Eric. Thank you so much. You were so stunned when I called. I was incredibly stunned when you called. In fact, my publicist had made me think that he was just calling to talk about something kind of boring.

It did, because I didn't... I mean, the marriage plot has been done so many times, and the epigraph of the book is from Midsummer Night's Dream. I was thinking about that sort of plot that ends in a marriage, and I thought, how can I make that original? And so I thought, well, we'll have a marriage halfway through the book, but it's not the right marriage.

And in fact, they don't get their marriage paper certified, so they don't end up being married. So I was just interested in that. And I didn't actually come up. I don't want to give anything away, but to the end of the book returns to the marriage that we see a glimpse of halfway through the book. For a long time, I didn't know how to end the book.

I knew that it was spanning 50 years, that it was going into the future, that it was about this next generation as well and how they would deal with the mistakes from the past, both the sort of mistakes that the characters have made, but also the mistakes that society made. has made, but I didn't know how to end it. And I was at a writer's residency, the Otto in New York.

And I was there for a week and I was like, I finally got this residency. I have a leave off of work and I don't know, I can't write. I don't know what to do because I can't end this thing. And then it occurred to me to go back to that original

wedding and to finish it and to write it as if this was a different almost like dream life that that might have occurred um and i actually started crying i was so happy that i had come up with a way to to end and the book i thought the dream life had something the dream state which is the name of the book had something to do with this um uh psychotic depression or depressive psychosis that garrett went through it had nothing to do with that no it had a lot to do with that as well um

Yeah, thank you for picking up on that. And there's also a moment when Jasper, who becomes a drug addict, is talking about feeling like his life is always a dream. And I just started thinking about the way that we feel like we're often sort of trapped in a dream these days. Everyone's on the Internet all the time. These awful things are happening in the world. We used to be. We're on our phones.

We see that they're happening. And for Jasper, it's particularly acute because he has a heart condition. And there's something in his heart that saved him, saved his life. And so he sometimes feels that his life is dreamlike.

I think I would have coffee with Cece. I just, I like her a lot.

Okay.

I think she would make the best coffee. By far. Garrett is, he makes like cowboy coffee.

Absolutely. I mean, it's partly that when you write a novel, only trouble is interesting. But also, I think one of the wonderful things about a writer is being able to empathize with people who are really struggling. And I'm interested in that in my work. I'm also interested in my life. And I wanted to write about Jasper in particular.

I have two close friends of mine, my best friends in high school, both became heroin addicts. So I was interested in writing about that epidemic.

That's a terrific question. I'm really drawn to novels that are ambitious in that way with their use of time. One of my favorite novels is Light Years by James Salter. Also sort of focuses on a house and a family. I guess I'm drawn to novels in which time is the antagonist because I feel that's sort of the way that our lives are led and grappling with that. reality was really important to me.

And obviously, also, I was interested in climate change and the sort of devastating effects, particularly in the West, American West, because one of the things that's happened since we started going to this area in Montana 25 years ago is that I've watched it change dramatically. I've watched the landscape change and It's not far from Glacier National Park. It's gorgeous there.

It used to have 150 glaciers. It's down to 25. So all that snow that used to be there isn't there anymore. And so it's having an effect on all the lakes and the lake levels. It's having a huge effect on biodiversity.

And also with all the fires, sometimes we go there for a week or two weeks and we can't go outside for most of that time because the air quality index is like in the red and it's very unhealthy. So it's tragic what's happening there. But I wanted that to be part of the book.

Yeah, thank you. And you wanted it to. I did, absolutely. Oh, that's on purpose. Yes, absolutely.

Yeah, absolutely. I'm really interested in the sort of divide between our private and public selves. And I think one of the trickiest things in life is bridging that divide. I also think, like, what we think we want isn't necessarily what we truly want or what we should want. And I'm very interested in characters who think they want the wrong thing for themselves.

And we as readers know that, no, actually, that's not what you want. With Cece, it's sort of like trying on different masks, because pediatric neurosurgeon, since she was a kid, she was sort of in love with those words. I mean, that's language. And once she got to med school, she realized, God, I hate this. This isn't fun, and I'm not interested in this.

So she has to change tact, but she also is confused as to, she wants to do something great in the world, and she just doesn't.