Erez Zukerman
Appearances
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Building customizable ergonomic keyboards (Interview)
No, that's the fun. Well, yes and no. I'm going to go with no for the shape because as long as you are running cold Mac, as long as your letter keys are where my brain expects them, I'm good. I have a MacBook. I use the MacBook itself often, just like on the sofa or when I travel. Well, when I travel, it's with the keyboard, but I use the MacBook itself often.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Building customizable ergonomic keyboards (Interview)
It's just as fast because the shape is so, so different. Like when I'm using one of our keyboards, like I'm literally like this, like my chest is open, my shoulders are out. And it's one, the posture is different. Everything feels different. So it's like using two totally different instruments. So I'm just as fast.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Building customizable ergonomic keyboards (Interview)
Another word for it is maybe like a modality, like it's an input modality, right? So there's no confusion then. I think if we were to make a normal-looking keyboard, yeah, that would probably be a problem. Really? Because the shape is so weird and different. It's just... Not a non-issue.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Building customizable ergonomic keyboards (Interview)
Oh, yeah. So there's two halves. There's a cable in between. It's not wireless. We can go into that, by the way. That's a whole thing. Our keyboards are not wireless and will not be wireless for the foreseeable future. But there's cables. There's a cable separating both halves. And then it goes to the computer on the left side.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Building customizable ergonomic keyboards (Interview)
Well, I mean, a laptop keyboard would be normal. Mine are definitely weird. I mean, unabashedly so. They're just, you know, strange looking keyboards. Yes, that is what we make.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Building customizable ergonomic keyboards (Interview)
No, no. The normal keyboards are, you know, what do you like? Basically close your eyes and draw a keyboard out of memory. That's normal. That's what a keyboard looks like.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Building customizable ergonomic keyboards (Interview)
That's amazing. Yeah.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Building customizable ergonomic keyboards (Interview)
Totally. It always gets me. We actually hear from people writing now and then saying like, you know, this keyboard saved my career. Because coders work long hours. I mean, it's a cliche, but it's also true. And then they, you know, and then they're done work and they're still at the keyboard because like their hobbies involve the keyboard.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Building customizable ergonomic keyboards (Interview)
So, yeah, it's always fun when somebody says this was life changing.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Building customizable ergonomic keyboards (Interview)
It was the Microsoft Natural 4000. Okay.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Building customizable ergonomic keyboards (Interview)
Let me look it up real quick and see.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Building customizable ergonomic keyboards (Interview)
No, the 4000 is like super duper old. That's long gone.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Building customizable ergonomic keyboards (Interview)
Yep.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Building customizable ergonomic keyboards (Interview)
Two main reasons, posture and movement. Posture, first of all, is let's say I were to separate the parts and leave them in one place, just stretch and weigh out and leave them in one place. Actually, I'm gonna go with posture movement and mobility, I'll get to that.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Building customizable ergonomic keyboards (Interview)
But posture, if I were to separate the two parts and just leave them fixed in their new positions, I already open up my chest, I drop my shoulders, the whole neck area, people get stress and tension headaches because of this has to do with like the monitor placement, but also the keyword placement and the interaction between the shoulders And the neck opens up.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Building customizable ergonomic keyboards (Interview)
And then once you open up, that also has implication for breath. It's actually easier to breathe. And that has a whole host of other like health repercussions or I guess benefits if you can to take the positive here. If your breath is working, many things in your body work, right? So just open up, calm down, and it reduces stress across areas. many parts of your body, not just your hands.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Building customizable ergonomic keyboards (Interview)
That's one benefit of split, but the other benefit is being, well, and I guess actually to go more on position, another side benefit there is that you can tend to them. You can control the angle relative to the desk and actually make a little roof and kind of, and it doesn't have to be the same angle on each half, right?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Building customizable ergonomic keyboards (Interview)
So one can be like really severely angled to an almost handshake position, the other one much flatter, that's fine. The keyboard can do that, that's not a problem. because it's split, it's two totally independent halves, right? And then you can also rotate them as whatever works for you. You can have them rotated so you're coming in from the side like this, or you can have them rotated outwards.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Building customizable ergonomic keyboards (Interview)
And again, you can change each of them independently. But that brings me to movement, which is the second one. You can actually, you can, and I'm going to say you should make those changes throughout the day. Move around. Like one thing that really gets me is those ergonomic posters and infographics that show you like the right typing posture.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Building customizable ergonomic keyboards (Interview)
And you have this like robot looking person that's all right angles and the head is exactly straight and the forearms are exactly straight and the knees and like, okay, like that's one way to do it. Sure, for five, 10 minutes. But really what we are meant to do as humans is move. we are meant to shift our position throughout the day.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Building customizable ergonomic keyboards (Interview)
And I definitely think you should take movement breaks when you work. You should stand up. You should sit down. I have this very cool little thing here called the MoveMate, actually. That's like this wobbly platform that you can stand and kind of play around on. But a part of that is being able to just shift your keyboard. around, draw it in closer, push it far, all that.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Building customizable ergonomic keyboards (Interview)
And that also has other advantages, of course, you know, less movement based, but let's say you're gaming. So no problem. You just unplug the right half entirely, chuck it out, lots of room for your mouse. And the left half can now be this super powered macro pad just for your game. If you're like an MMO type of guy. So that's the second one.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Building customizable ergonomic keyboards (Interview)
And then the third one, third good reason for a split, it packs down. It's really easy. You know, when you type, it's a full size, like spacious keyboard because you have all this room to spread out. But when it's time to take it somewhere, there is an included carrying case, which is small because it's like a sandwich. It's basically the footprint of one half.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Building customizable ergonomic keyboards (Interview)
So you're just going to smoosh it together.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Building customizable ergonomic keyboards (Interview)
Stack them. Yeah. They're separated with layers of fabric there. And it's a soft case on purpose. So you can kind of squish it in as you need to take it and go small.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Building customizable ergonomic keyboards (Interview)
No, not, not more, sometimes less of a problem than skill typists. Because when you are a skill typist, you have some unlearning to do. It's jarring. Like I often say, you know, like the immediate effect of putting one of our keyboards on your desk, it's basically like you got a brain injury. Because a moment ago you could type just fine. Now you got this thing you have no idea how to type.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Building customizable ergonomic keyboards (Interview)
You lost the ability to type, right? And... And that's something you need to take into account. There is definitely a learning curve. You got to know this if you're getting one of these keyboards. And if you are used to 100, 120 words per minute, it's going to take you- Slow you down. Yeah, it's going to slow you down. It's going to slow you down for a while.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Building customizable ergonomic keyboards (Interview)
It takes people three weeks to recover, to go back up and sometimes beyond their previous speed. But it's going to take you time. Versus if you are a hunt and peck type of user,
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Building customizable ergonomic keyboards (Interview)
you don't have that unlearning you can just start from you know from getting faster right the learning curve you will have there or you may have there depends more on your background if you are a non-technical user we do have non-technical users we have you know all sorts of lawyers and teachers and many people who are not necessarily programmers.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Building customizable ergonomic keyboards (Interview)
Obviously, if you're a lawyer, it doesn't mean you're non-technical, but I'm saying people who are not coders. So there is sometimes a learning curve, not so much around the physical act of typing, but more around getting your head around, wow, What can I do with this thing? Like all of the options, it's so wide open to customization and to change.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Building customizable ergonomic keyboards (Interview)
That takes a little bit of getting used to and experimenting.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Building customizable ergonomic keyboards (Interview)
Yeah, exactly. We have one of these for each of our keyboards and you just print it out at 100%. It even comes with a little ruler so you can put a real ruler next to it and verify you got it right. And then, yeah, you just place it down and figure out, okay, where is this going to go in my space? Does this even feel good?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Building customizable ergonomic keyboards (Interview)
For the foreseeable future, you know, for as long as, you know, nothing in the pipeline, wireless.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Building customizable ergonomic keyboards (Interview)
Yeah, I have many feelings about wireless stuff. I have many emotions. It's not actually latency. I don't think that's the thing for us because we are not particularly low latency. I mean, we're not targeting that. We're not for gamers. For me, I really want to make a keyboard that people can use in 15, 20, 25 years to have a reasonable expectation of being able to use this thing.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Building customizable ergonomic keyboards (Interview)
So what does that mean? It means that The parts I use, first of all, it means the hardware design. It's something you should be able to open up, right? You should be able to open up and poke inside, replace bits and pieces. Of course, as long as I'm in business, I also sell replacement parts, but many of these are non-proprietary. You can just get them anywhere, key switches and whatnot.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Building customizable ergonomic keyboards (Interview)
You should, it's a mechanical keyboard, so it has moving parts. And the number one moving part is of course the key switch. So the key switch should be hot swappable. You should be able to just pull it out. Like you pull out a tooth and stick a new one in, because that part will break over time. We were, by the way, one of the first hot swap keyboards in the world.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Building customizable ergonomic keyboards (Interview)
Nowadays, it's kind of a common feature. But if you dig through the Internet Archive, you'll see us as one of the very first to get there. So it's a lot around repairability. Or if you take the firmware, for example, again, QMK. QMK is open source and is not. ZSA sponsors QMK development. We're one of the few companies that actively pay for a developer to work on QMK.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Building customizable ergonomic keyboards (Interview)
but we don't own the code base and we don't control it. Which means if, let us say, we're ever to go out of business, the firmware is still there. You can totally flash it. Imagine if Sonos went out of business. I got Sonos speakers. Imagine if Sonos tomorrow packs up and that's it. Preach. Okay. At least their new stuff has Bluetooth, but I don't have the Bluetooth ones.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Building customizable ergonomic keyboards (Interview)
I have the IKEA thing and a couple others. And if Sonos were to call it quits, OK, now I got paperweights.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Building customizable ergonomic keyboards (Interview)
So repairability goes to the firmware. It goes not using glue, not using clips that break on people, just using sane and normal screws in shapes that people actually have bits for. And we have teardown guides for each of our keyboards. We show you in detail how to take it apart.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Building customizable ergonomic keyboards (Interview)
Except for the Ergodox EZ, that teardown guide is actually by iFixit, who tore it down and gave it 10 out of 10 on repairability. So what's that and wireless? What's the connection? Why am I going on a big repairability rant when we're talking wireless? Because wireless means batteries. To make a product wireless, it must obviously include a power source.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Building customizable ergonomic keyboards (Interview)
And those batteries, there is a lot there. First of all, I mean, there's a whole like sustainability aspect of even making them, which I won't go into because, yeah, obviously myself, I have a battery in my laptop. I have a battery. in many gadgets I use, but it does take resources to make them. But more than that, they will die. A battery is basically like a timer for a product.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Building customizable ergonomic keyboards (Interview)
Thank you. Happy to be here.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Building customizable ergonomic keyboards (Interview)
This to me is like planned obsolescence to the max. Sometimes, you know, if it's a laptop or a camera, let's take a camera. A camera, obviously, okay, I need to take the thing outside for it to work. So it needs a battery. Laptop, I got to travel with it. Okay, I accept that. Phone, some things need a battery.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Building customizable ergonomic keyboards (Interview)
A keyboard is going to literally live on my desk its entire life within like, I don't know, 10 inches of a power source. It does not need a battery. And by putting one in, I'm effectively guaranteeing that in a decade or 15 years, it goes to the landfill.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Building customizable ergonomic keyboards (Interview)
Love it.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Building customizable ergonomic keyboards (Interview)
Mm-hmm. That's really, really true. And that's also an interesting segue, because it's interesting that you mentioned the AirPods, because there's this company, the company that makes the Fairphone. Have you heard of the Fairphone? Okay, so this is a European... Is it a black and white one? No, it's not black and white. It's an Android device.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Building customizable ergonomic keyboards (Interview)
It's basically a mid-range Android device, just a phone. But the thing is, they actually make it repairable. So the battery that they need to use is user replaceable. The whole thing is repairable. And they recently announced wireless earbuds and they look kind of like, you know, kind of like the Apple ones. but they have a battery that you can replace.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Building customizable ergonomic keyboards (Interview)
They actually were able to design the thing so you can open it, take out this tiny battery, pop a new one in, and ta-da, a new lease on life. So if you need a battery, at least make it easy for me to replace.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Building customizable ergonomic keyboards (Interview)
But if you don't absolutely need a battery, if your product is gonna just be stationary for the most part and live right next to some sort of power source, such as a computer, like my keyboard requires a computer to do anything, that computer should give it power. That's a whole bunch of obsolescence we avoid right there.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Building customizable ergonomic keyboards (Interview)
And I have people who backed the original ErgoDoc CZ back in 2015, got it early 2016 or December or whatever, December 2015 or whatever. writing into this day saying, yeah, I have a question, or this thing, or they're still using it. And the configurator, by the way, still works with it also.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Building customizable ergonomic keyboards (Interview)
Yeah.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Building customizable ergonomic keyboards (Interview)
Not a huge concern. As a business, actually, our costs are super high. Our economics are weird. We invest much more of the total cost of the keyboard that you pay goes into actually making the thing. And I'm fine with that. I'm okay because, again, we make the keyboards in Taiwan and they're made by us. People who are employees, not our employees, but people's employees and they're paid well.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Building customizable ergonomic keyboards (Interview)
Sure. Yeah. No, that's, that's, those are really two questions, I guess, somewhat related. So yeah. I'm a procrastinator.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Building customizable ergonomic keyboards (Interview)
And the whole thing is just expensive to make. Like when you do something right, it tends to be expensive. And if I really believed that wireless was the way to go value wise, I would go for it. Even if it made the keyboard more expensive, that's fine. That's not, I don't compete on price.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Building customizable ergonomic keyboards (Interview)
Not amazing, but sustainable. It's really a question of what game are you trying to play as a business owner? If my game was to grow and grow and grow and become another logitech, I should look at my margins. But if my game is to provide something of supreme value to people who recognize what that is and understanding that my thing is a niche, I make a niche product,
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Building customizable ergonomic keyboards (Interview)
and I wanna build for and optimize for longevity, not for a scale, but for longevity to still be here in five, 10, 15, who knows how many years, I'm good. It's a question of what game you choose to play. That also goes with the fact that we don't have investors. Our Indiegogo backers are the OG investors, in a sense. They invested in a keyboard. They got a keyboard.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Building customizable ergonomic keyboards (Interview)
And that's how we got our start. And that's it. We are fully, fully, like I say, no to capital. I have people trying to give me money every now and then. I'm like, no, sorry. Like, no, we're good.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Building customizable ergonomic keyboards (Interview)
Yeah. If you give me a task, you know, I will spend an obscene amount of time trying to figure out, okay, what is the best way to do this? Like it would have taken me an hour, but no, I will spend the 10 hours. Like what is, what's like the best. And years ago I was a writer. I used to write for PC world. I used to write and edit for make use of, which was another tech blog.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Building customizable ergonomic keyboards (Interview)
So it's a good question. It's not something I think about and it's not something I optimize for. For me, what I care about and like kind of an ideal scenario is you buy the one keyboard once and you are done. Keyboard people call that end game. You got your keyboard, it's working and this is it.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Building customizable ergonomic keyboards (Interview)
And for many people, we do hit that and we provide support like in firmware for a long, long time and our warranty is fairly generous as well. So there are many people who buy the one keyboard And they're done. But those people then often do two things. One is they subscribe to our newsletter. I'm sorry, I'm being very immodest here. We have a very good newsletter. It's called The Ergo.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Building customizable ergonomic keyboards (Interview)
It's not about only keyboards. It's once a month. And we put a lot into it. And those people subscribe and they stay engaged. Like I get fan mail for the newsletter every month. I get people writing back and saying, oh, I love this issue. I use this. We recommend tools from across the web. We recommend resources, whatever. So they remain engaged.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Building customizable ergonomic keyboards (Interview)
And then the other thing they do is, yes, they talk about us. We pretty much rely on that because we don't work with influencers. We don't advertise at all. We don't work with a PR firm. Like you guys came to me and I'm very happy to be here, but it's not like somebody reached out to you and like, oh, can, you know, it's just all organic. And what I found is that there is a ton of goodwill.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Building customizable ergonomic keyboards (Interview)
When people sense that you're being real, that you're not trying to scale, that you're not thinking of your software as a service move and how can I charge a subscription fee for this keyboard or for this thing or whatever, When you are just simply making a good thing and trying to keep doing just that, it really resonates.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Building customizable ergonomic keyboards (Interview)
And we have people who really like ZSA and who like our keyboards, and they do share with friends, friends, family, co-workers. And It also helps that the keyboard is so weird looking. You have it on your desk in an office. If you work in an office, people do routinely stop and say, what is that? And then our customers really talk. They really do open up. They're not like, ah, it's a keyboard.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Building customizable ergonomic keyboards (Interview)
And that's a lot of typing. It's a lot of writing. And that kind of got me into a rabbit hole of how can I do this better? This feels weird. Even before that, my very first ergonomic keyboard, my very first keyboard was an ergonomic keyboard. It was the Microsoft Natural 4000 way back when. So I kind of had it in the back of my mind that it can be better.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Building customizable ergonomic keyboards (Interview)
No, because it's kind of more than that for them, for customers who get it. So yeah, that's kind of how it works.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Building customizable ergonomic keyboards (Interview)
Yeah, they emailed me.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Building customizable ergonomic keyboards (Interview)
No, so that's not how I work. I'm pretty selective. So they reached out and I know they're big. That's great. It doesn't mean that they're the right people to review the product. So then I always have a call and I kind of get to know them and set expectations and like, this is it. Like to review a keyboard like that, if you think you're going to review my keyboard in two or three days... What?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Building customizable ergonomic keyboards (Interview)
Like, no, that's not going to work. You need to have some time with it. You need to really spend time. You need to have a little bit of background. If you are a reviewer, you need to know what else is out there to have comparables. So I had a call with them, looked like a good fit. I sent them a keyboard. They took their time and eventually they published.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Building customizable ergonomic keyboards (Interview)
I love it. So, it's all a question of what game are you playing. For some people, it is a hobby. Yes, there are people who get an Ergodox EZ, and then that's kind of their gateway, you know? And they play with it, and they're like, oh, wow, that's great. And then they go and they build one, because nowadays there's kits, there's really great kits. You can even get, like, pre-assembled kits.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Building customizable ergonomic keyboards (Interview)
Everything is so much more developed now than when we started that, yeah, for sure, we do see it all the time.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Building customizable ergonomic keyboards (Interview)
But some people just want to get their work done. They get a keyboard, they're happy, and they move on with life. But as a hobby, I'm biased, obviously. But keyboards are very cool, in my opinion. It's quite a fun hobby.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Building customizable ergonomic keyboards (Interview)
Yeah. No, that is such a great question. I love that question because I... had never imagined we would get here. When we started, we made the ErgoDoc CZ, that was the Indiegogo, and then it was time to make a website to go with it. So I got ErgoDocCZ.com because that's what we were making and that was the thing. And then for a good few years, that was it. And then we got this idea.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Building customizable ergonomic keyboards (Interview)
We were like, you know what? What if the thumb cluster moved? Like what if the whole keyboard was way, way thinner and you could actually move the thumb cluster? And we started playing around with that and we realized that makes a significant difference. We basically, again, the ErgoDocs, The OG Ergodox is not my design. It's not by ZSA. It's by Docs, by Dominique.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Building customizable ergonomic keyboards (Interview)
Like I don't have to use a laptop keyboard. I don't have to use like a crappy keyboard. you know, mushy keyboard. And then basically I switched to a better keyboard layout. So I was still using the same hardware, but the keys were arranged differently. That's a layout called Colmac.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Building customizable ergonomic keyboards (Interview)
And it was optimized for hobbyists originally, right? Like it was actually, people would make it out of a sandwich of acrylic. Like they would take a few layers of acrylic and that was the case. Like acrylic, then the circuit board, then some more acrylic and, you know. And when we made it into the Ergodox CZ, obviously we modified it.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Building customizable ergonomic keyboards (Interview)
We redesigned everything for manufacturing, but it was still that Ergodox at heart. For example, when we came out with a backlit version, not all keys are backlit. The thumb cluster is not backlit, not because we got lazy, but because the original design did not allow for it. So we were kind of stuck with that. And after a few years, we felt, wow, you know, there's enough interest here.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Building customizable ergonomic keyboards (Interview)
We have enough of a community. There's yeah, and we have a good idea, let's do it. And that was the Moonlander. And then the Moonlander was out for a few years. It's all kind of organic. Like we thought, what if there was, we looked at a laptop and we thought, what if there was a keyboard that,
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Building customizable ergonomic keyboards (Interview)
that really went with it a keyboard that you could lean up you could tent it against the sides of the laptop we don't show an image like that on the site but it's very possible with a voyager and it's something that people do and you just kind of set both halves of the keyboard each half kind of like so that it's half on the laptop and mostly on the desk.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Building customizable ergonomic keyboards (Interview)
We even have rubberized sides to support that so it doesn't slide on you. These are secrets. These are not things you necessarily see on the website. We don't highlight them. But we did a lot of work for those rubberized sides. The shell is a double-shot shell. The shell of the Voyager is made from a mix of ABS and silicon that we inject very precisely for those legs.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Building customizable ergonomic keyboards (Interview)
And we had this idea and then these very thin key switches called chalk switches started appearing, made by Kale. And for a long time, I was a little bit on the fence because it is a proprietary part.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Building customizable ergonomic keyboards (Interview)
If you look at the Moonlander and the Ergodox, we use cherry style switches and the patent on those expired, which means they're gonna be around for a long, long time because anybody can make them and many companies do. When the time came to make the Voyager, we really wanted an ultra, ultra thin board, still with like a steel backplate, like something that's very rigid, but very thin.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Building customizable ergonomic keyboards (Interview)
So we opted for those switches and we opted for an even more minimal layout, like fewer keys. And yeah, and that's where we are today.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Building customizable ergonomic keyboards (Interview)
And if you're listening to this and you're feeling uncomfortable typing, that would be the first thing I would suggest. Don't even buy anything. Just switch to a better keyboard layout with a keyboard you already have.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Building customizable ergonomic keyboards (Interview)
It's a huge issue. And not just that, there's like real costs to picking because it's not like there's nowhere to just try them out. Right. So if you pick one, Yeah, that's something I think a lot about, and we try to be very clear about the differences, and we have those printouts and everything.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Building customizable ergonomic keyboards (Interview)
Most people tend to be happy with their choice, but we do have people who are like, oh, I want to ship this one back and get a different one instead, and they do that. They ship, they get a full refund, and the shipping is on you, unfortunately, which is expensive because you do ship back to Taiwan. So that's expensive.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Building customizable ergonomic keyboards (Interview)
Or some people resell locally to friends or people like on Facebook Marketplace or whatever. And then they get another one. But again, that's a minority. For the most part, people do tend to be happy with whatever they choose.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Building customizable ergonomic keyboards (Interview)
I love it. I got to say, out of all our keyboards, my personal favorite is definitely the Voyager. Again, I'm biased because the Voyager, my little secret there is the Voyager was the first keyboard where I... personally designed the geometry. The location, the position of every key on the Voyager, the exact angle of the thumb cluster, that's me.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Building customizable ergonomic keyboards (Interview)
And that happens to be very, very comfortable for me, for my particular hands, what do you know? Right. So I've been typing on the Voyager since it was just a circuit board. Before it had a shell, when we were just starting out, I got the first functional circuit boards. They had little rubber feet on them. And I just plugged in the circuit board, put keys on it, and that was it.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Building customizable ergonomic keyboards (Interview)
And Colmac was interesting because there's this graduated system of learning it. I was getting paid by the word. I was writing for a living. So it was kind of scary to switch to a different keyboard layout because at the time, this was years and years ago, there wasn't really great dictation software or anything like that. So if I can't type, I can't write, I can't pay the bills.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Building customizable ergonomic keyboards (Interview)
Voyager ever since.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Building customizable ergonomic keyboards (Interview)
Yeah.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Building customizable ergonomic keyboards (Interview)
I use a trackball, personally. I use a trackball called the Kensington Expert Mouse. It is a trackball. I don't know why they called it that way. It looks like something designed in the late 90s. I'm pretty sure it actually was.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Building customizable ergonomic keyboards (Interview)
massive it is wired i love it i've been using the same physical one for i think 11 years now and where do you place that in between the halves closer to my left half i'm a lefty so i use i use a pointing device with my left hand so it's right i have that to have shoulder width so they're pretty far apart and then right up against the left half is my trackball
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Building customizable ergonomic keyboards (Interview)
From the inside. Inside. Again, I'm moving my hand inwards to get to it.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Building customizable ergonomic keyboards (Interview)
Yeah.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Building customizable ergonomic keyboards (Interview)
You like that, huh?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Building customizable ergonomic keyboards (Interview)
That's right. If, if you do, I use my laptop in clamshell mode with an external monitor. So for me, the keyboard is just on the desk. But if you actually really do use the laptop on your desk, then you kind of you know, prop the Voyager's halves on the laptop. And then yeah, your trackpad is right there by your thumb.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Building customizable ergonomic keyboards (Interview)
Oh, wow. Do you draw? Do you create digital art?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Building customizable ergonomic keyboards (Interview)
That is very cool. That's a really cool use of a Wacom, actually. Just use it as a mouse.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Building customizable ergonomic keyboards (Interview)
So you're cutting down on a bunch of repetitive movement right there because you're basically splitting your mouse hand. Stuff that other people do with the same hand and in the same posture, you're using two hands for and in different positions. That's so interesting.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Building customizable ergonomic keyboards (Interview)
So I transitioned over to Colmac using this graduated system called Tarmac, where first you change like three keys. And I kind of lived with those. It's like QWERTY, but three keys are in like the wrong places.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Building customizable ergonomic keyboards (Interview)
No, like, but, but do you do that? Well, there's no really scenarios where you do that at the same time, are there? You don't really need to scroll and click.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Building customizable ergonomic keyboards (Interview)
That's super interesting because what you're describing is a split mouse. It is. We're talking about split keyboards, but what you got there is a split mouse, which isn't really something I considered. That is so interesting.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Building customizable ergonomic keyboards (Interview)
So I lived like that for a month. Got over that, changed a few more keys, a few more keys. And ever since then, I've been typing like this with Colmac. So that was kind of not the start, but step two. But it didn't stop there, obviously. I was comfortable using CoolMac. Rabbit holes deep. Yeah, I was comfortable using CoolMac, but I was like, man, I'm sure there's better stuff out there.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Building customizable ergonomic keyboards (Interview)
I did not know that.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Building customizable ergonomic keyboards (Interview)
That's super interesting. How'd you get the idea? Did you like, what got you started on Wacom?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Building customizable ergonomic keyboards (Interview)
That's awesome. That's really interesting.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Building customizable ergonomic keyboards (Interview)
So it's a funny setup, actually. Your setup is the opposite of most people's because most people, they put the keyboard and then there's lots of room in the middle for a cat. Okay. I have no cat. We actually have a whole page on the site dedicated to photos of cats in the middle.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Building customizable ergonomic keyboards (Interview)
C-I-T-S-F. Feline approved. But in your case, it's like you're going to have the keyboard in the middle and your split mouse off to the side. Split mouse. That's really interesting.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Building customizable ergonomic keyboards (Interview)
Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Actually, just this month, we published an amazing tutorial by Robin, one of our support people, who created... a trackpad for the Voyager. It's an amazing, it's right now, it's a DIY thing. It's like a mod. We're super DIY friendly. Like we always, people like 3D print all sorts of attachments and things like that. And we tend to share those out and highlight them or whatever.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Building customizable ergonomic keyboards (Interview)
They color their keys and stuff like that. But this particular mod adds a circular trackpad right next to the Voyager. And it looks like it was made for it. Robin created a beautiful thing there And once I saw it, I was like, oh, maybe we can make something like that. So, you know, the DIY version is out right now. People can go in and make it, actually, and some people already are.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Building customizable ergonomic keyboards (Interview)
But we are definitely looking at offering something more polished and built in.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Building customizable ergonomic keyboards (Interview)
So I got this wonderful keyboard that's made to this day. This was the Kinesis Advantage. And that's a keyboard that's like one massive thing and your hands are slightly separated and there is these bowls, these key bowls that your fingers sink into. It's very, very cool. And I got it blank.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Building customizable ergonomic keyboards (Interview)
You could get it with no, nothing on the keycaps, because by that time, the keycaps would have been wrong for me. So I got it with nothing. And my wife loved that, because I was relearning to type yet again and completely. But within a couple of weeks, I was able to type pretty well on this blank keyboard. And then I loved the hardware. It was lovely for me, but I wanted it to do more.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Building customizable ergonomic keyboards (Interview)
Oh, a whole bunch of things. So first of all, when you have the mechanical design, even if you have something you can 3D print, you need to completely redo it because designing for 3D printing and designing for injection molding is two totally different things. So you make the shell. And then of course, once you have a shell, you pay for the tooling. That's very expensive.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Building customizable ergonomic keyboards (Interview)
That's like, depending on the size of the mold, but it can get in the tens of thousands of dollars for a mold, things like that. Then you got the plastic done. And that's a bunch of iterations because you also iterate on things like the surface texture. How does it feel? And injection mold tooling is interesting because some things are irreversible. It's literally a physical mold.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Building customizable ergonomic keyboards (Interview)
So if you decide to make a change, you can't put it back later. Like some changes, when you decide it's like, if it doesn't work, you need to scrap the mold and literally start over again. So it's a fairly intense process and that gets you the plastic at the end. That is if you just go ABS. For the Voyager shell, we had to do it even more complicated because like I said,
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Building customizable ergonomic keyboards (Interview)
That shell is made of two materials and that's a whole other thing. Then you got the electronics. So for the electronics, when you make them at scale, when you're like a real manufacturer and not a hobbyist at home, you need to get the electronics certified. CE and FCC certification, which means that it's up to code. It can be legally imported. It's not gonna burn your house or your computer.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Building customizable ergonomic keyboards (Interview)
It's a real thing. And that certification is pretty grueling. Like they go and they literally zap your product. Like they shock it with an electrostatic, like they have a little thing, like a mini cattle prod thing that they stick in there. Like they find whatever gaps you have in your case, like they stick it in there and they zap your product and see what happens.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Building customizable ergonomic keyboards (Interview)
I was like, man, like, why does one key do only one thing, right? I mean, what if I hold it down? What if I tap it twice? What if, you know, all those things. And then I kind of got into the possibilities of what's possible, like what's out there in terms of smarter keyboards, right? And I found the Ergodox. And this was an open source design by Dominique Poucham, a Quebecois.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Building customizable ergonomic keyboards (Interview)
And make sure that it actually reboots, for example, and continues to work and things like that. So then you have certification. And then for us, of course, a huge part is going to be the software around it. It needs to be easy to configure. The keyboard would have to work well without it, and it would have to be easy to add it on and customize it in ways that make sense.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Building customizable ergonomic keyboards (Interview)
And then, of course, there is explaining. What the heck did you do? which is its own thing, right? Like there needs to be just the same looking webpage that clearly and truthfully and without hype explain what the thing is, which is a lot. It's one of the things I actually do last. I think some companies start there. I do it at the end because I like holding the thing when I write the copy.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Building customizable ergonomic keyboards (Interview)
The copy on the website is mine. I wrote the copy across both sites. So by holding a very late stage prototype, let's say, I can write without feeling that it's marketing BS. I can write and say, no, this is really the thing.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Building customizable ergonomic keyboards (Interview)
And then if you have access to a 3D printer, you could possibly print out a really simple wedge that just kind of lifts your trackpad a little bit and maybe angles it inwards just a bit. Yeah. Or rather, angles it towards the keyboard, I should say, which is really outwards. But it's towards your left hand. And it will be the right height. It will be leaning towards you ever so slightly.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Building customizable ergonomic keyboards (Interview)
Sounds, yeah. I think there's something there.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Building customizable ergonomic keyboards (Interview)
You could have it poke out the top a little bit. You could lift it so that the top of the trackpad is higher than the top of the keyboard.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Building customizable ergonomic keyboards (Interview)
Sure. We have many tutorials for fun ways to void your warranty. We are all about that. So one thing people should know, opening up a product, if you spoke to iFixit, I'm sure they mentioned that as well, but some people still don't know that opening up a product does not void your warranty. The warranty is still, you can flip a product over, open it up, look inside, warranty is still valid.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Building customizable ergonomic keyboards (Interview)
Where the warranty is, becomes void is any user caused damage. Let's say you opened it up and then you spilled Coke in there. That's hard for me to cover. But basically the warranty It's a two-year warranty at base. You can extend it to four years. And you can extend it at the time of order.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Building customizable ergonomic keyboards (Interview)
I don't do the thing like Apple do where you can extend it after you buy because that feels like kind of a desperate upsell to me. Like, I don't love it. I think it's more respectful of people to just say, well, you looked at the accessory store. That was your decision. I respect your decision. That's it.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Building customizable ergonomic keyboards (Interview)
I'm not going to haunt you with, are you sure you don't want to pay a little more for two more years? If at the time of purchase, you make that decision, you get four years. And that's a very no BS warranty in the sense that if there is any problem, our support team is amazing. We are 11 people in the company, not including the manufacturing side. Four of us are full-time support.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Building customizable ergonomic keyboards (Interview)
And at the time, you could buy it as a box of parts from MassDrop before they were called Drop.com. You would...
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Building customizable ergonomic keyboards (Interview)
I would say four and a half because half my time is in the support inbox, but it's four of us are full-time support, extremely good at what they do. That is the core of our marketing, really. I think it's shocking to people when they buy a product and then they need help and then you actually help them. People are so surprised when that happens. It's quite funny.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Building customizable ergonomic keyboards (Interview)
Some people write already being very defensive. They write with a sort of attitude of, I know you're not going to help me and I'm pissed, but I'm going to just lay out my case right here. And then I go, okay, yeah. And then we help them. And they're like, what just happened? Somebody listened and it wasn't like some AI chatbot thing. So the warranty... It's comprehensive.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Building customizable ergonomic keyboards (Interview)
It's handled by human beings who do not make you go through a bunch of forms. And if you want to mod the keyboard, we are all for that. We show you all sorts of ideas while making it very clear that when you're modding it, you are doing away with a warranty. And some people actually wait for the warranty to expire before they do that.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Building customizable ergonomic keyboards (Interview)
Bottom line is, I think if you own something, you should own it. It should be yours. You should be able to void the warranty on the thing productively. Like I can certainly void the warranty on my iPhone, but I can't do anything productive with that. I'll just have a broken iPhone. So you know what I mean?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Building customizable ergonomic keyboards (Interview)
pay hundreds of dollars and wait a couple months and get a box of parts, including surface mount diodes, which are these teeny tiny grain of rice things you have to put on a circuit board at exactly the right place and the right orientation and solder down again and again, because there's many of these. I looked at it and I said, you know what?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Building customizable ergonomic keyboards (Interview)
Well, what we do there, so it's a really interesting question because it's very important to be honest with people, set the right expectations, and not disappoint. And the word warranty has a lot of connotations to it. It means we'll pick up the tab. It's ours to, you know, to take care of. And once you mod it, that is a statement of ownership. You own the thing.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Building customizable ergonomic keyboards (Interview)
So what we'll do there is not so much warranty because you took the responsibility. Fun fact, by the way, in Hebrew, my first language, warranty and responsibility is the same word. Is that right? It's the same word. Yeah. Warranty and responsibility. It's one word in Hebrew. What's the Hebrew word? Can you say it? Okay. Okay.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Building customizable ergonomic keyboards (Interview)
So you took responsibility for your possession, for your thing, so you are warranting your own work. But warranty, not having warranty does not mean not having support. The warranty can be void, but will still support you, which means if you need parts, We'll sell you parts. You don't need to buy a whole new keyboard. It's not a gotcha type of thing. Oh, you messed it up.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Building customizable ergonomic keyboards (Interview)
Now you need a new keyboard. No, no, no. If you messed up just the circuit board, I will, you know, we can sell you just that circuit board. We sell individual parts and pieces for you to like fix whatever happened. And like, we'll spend time with you to help you like troubleshoot, figure out what went wrong and all that.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Building customizable ergonomic keyboards (Interview)
That's so interesting. Yeah, I guess I should. I guess I should. It's like, I'm so careful of... upselling, like, of trying to... Yeah. Because I don't want to make it seem like, yeah, we'll sell you parts, like, we make a bunch of money on these parts. We don't, actually. But, you know, it's like, you can always buy parts. Like, I'm afraid of that tone.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Building customizable ergonomic keyboards (Interview)
I'm probably not the only one who wants a keyboard like that, but isn't going to go through the trouble of you know, assembling it myself. So that's where my partner, Dima, my business partner, comes in. He's the managing director of Thibault. which is a Taiwanese company I used to work at. I did a whole bunch of stuff before. So I used to work with Tebow.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Building customizable ergonomic keyboards (Interview)
Yeah. Right? No, you're right. We should probably link to We Sell Parts. We have a whole... post, by the way, called Right to Repair.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Building customizable ergonomic keyboards (Interview)
Directly inspired by iFixit, where we have, we list what parts we offer and we even list prices for the parts right there. So you're not like surprised when you email to ask for the parts. It's all right there on the blog.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Building customizable ergonomic keyboards (Interview)
I'm taking that on board. I love it. Maybe by the time you listen to this episode, if you go to that spray paint blog post, the link is there. Put it there.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Building customizable ergonomic keyboards (Interview)
I love it.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Building customizable ergonomic keyboards (Interview)
We made a deck of cards.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Building customizable ergonomic keyboards (Interview)
It's a good question. So I like to read. I started with Seth Godin, who talks a lot about permission marketing and all that. Then there's this denim, this jean maker in the UK called Hiut. That's H-I-U-T. That's the company. The guy's name is David Hyatt. I'm probably mispronouncing his last name. And he's been doing some really interesting things around marketing.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Building customizable ergonomic keyboards (Interview)
They make really nice industrial gear, very high-end manufacturing. So I contacted him. This was a few years after I was done working there. I contacted him. I said, hey, Dima, listen, I think I got something here. Maybe let's make a keyboard. Look at this design. We can make it, right? Nobody can take out the trademark. We don't own the trademark, ErgoDocs. Nobody can.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Building customizable ergonomic keyboards (Interview)
And he wrote a book called Do Open, which is a book about email marketing. And before that, I spent years working on an email marketing product. I used to be a developer for Mad Mimi and then GoDaddy. And that kind of exposed me to the power of email marketing, which is really all the marketing we do, that one email a month. And that email carries the company in terms of like outreach, let's say.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Building customizable ergonomic keyboards (Interview)
Obviously, there's other forums like the support I mentioned, but in terms of like us telling people about what we do, it's that email. As an individual, I can be somewhat picky. Yeah. I have opinions. So a lot of our marketing practices and non-practices are me expressing my emotions productively, shall we say.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Building customizable ergonomic keyboards (Interview)
Like if something makes me mad or I disagree with, like I don't love being inundated with ads. I don't love watching videos online, trying to decide if I want to buy something and not knowing if the person talking was paid to say what they're saying because not everybody discloses. So as a company, like we will never, ever, ever pay for coverage
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Building customizable ergonomic keyboards (Interview)
Because as an individual, that decision is not informed by business considerations. It's informed by my lived experience as an individual where I want to be able to watch something online and trust this person and know... Okay, yeah, they weren't getting paid.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Building customizable ergonomic keyboards (Interview)
Maybe they got the keyboard or maybe they got whatever it is they're reviewing and they're disclosing that, but at least they didn't get paid. So a lot of those decisions come from feelings. I think emotions are a valid decision-making tool, not necessarily in the moment. You shouldn't make a decision in anger. But if I'm feeling a certain way,
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Building customizable ergonomic keyboards (Interview)
I can sit with it for a while and think about it and then come up with something productive to do or not do there. I don't know if that's a good answer.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Building customizable ergonomic keyboards (Interview)
Yeah, it's a very idiosyncratic type of business. Sure. Yeah, if you look in the newsletter we send out every month, I pick five things I liked from across the web. Those are not articles. They're usually tools, interesting resources, and I share those. And then we went and made a subscriber-only archive.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Building customizable ergonomic keyboards (Interview)
And as a subscriber, it's free, but for people who are subscribed to the newsletter, and you click in and you go through – years and years of these. And for me, as the guy who found the links, it's so weird and interesting because it's like this personal archive of stuff I liked, but it's all shit. It's all out there. And it's this work that I've been building for years.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Building customizable ergonomic keyboards (Interview)
For sure. So I had this idea, why don't we make some merch? It'll be fun to have merch, you know, to have some things that say that people can maybe wear or whatever. And I thought, oh, t-shirts. And then I went to sleep and I woke up super bored at the idea of making t-shirts. Like, really? T-shirts? And at the time, like, I'm quite into board games and, you know, tabletop and things like that.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Building customizable ergonomic keyboards (Interview)
Not RPG so much, but certain board games. And I was thinking a lot about your standard deck of cards, which is such an incredibly versatile tool. I'm talking... The deck of cards you can get at any store, not mine, just your regular 52-card deck.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Building customizable ergonomic keyboards (Interview)
You have one of those in your pocket or in your glove compartment. That's a gaming system. That is a portable gaming system, just a regular deck of cards. You can do so much with it, like one-person, two-person games. You can have four people, and there's entire books, and there's websites. By the way, an awesome website, Pagat, P-A-G-A-T.com. That's a website dedicated to card games.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Building customizable ergonomic keyboards (Interview)
All you need is a deck of cards. And I saw that and I was like, wow, man, I wonder if there is a way to make a deck of cards that is even more versatile, that you can do even more with and use in even more ways. And what do you know, I'm not the first who had that idea. And I embarked on a little research expedition. And I found all sorts of, these are called multi-decks.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Building customizable ergonomic keyboards (Interview)
I found all sorts of these so-called multi-decks. And one of them was particularly great. It was, it is, it's around. It's called the Everdeck. And it's by this very talented designer called Will Hsu, Will Hsu. And he did something super creative there with very elegantly adding on cards and fleshing out the idea of a card deck, but making it super powered.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Building customizable ergonomic keyboards (Interview)
So I emailed him and I said, hey, well, you know, maybe we can do something like maybe you can advise us on our own card deck that would borrow some of your data structures because a card deck is really a data structure. If you think about it, it's a... So that would let us borrow, or it's really multiple data structures bound up together.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Building customizable ergonomic keyboards (Interview)
So if you could help us kind of design that, the data architecture, and he helped us He was very gracious, very generous, helped us come up with what would be the numbers on the cards or things like that. And then I took oblique strategies. Are you familiar with that?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Building customizable ergonomic keyboards (Interview)
Okay, so that's Brian Eno, the musician. And he, way back in the 70s, I think, came up with a deck of cards that just had slogans on them, had phrases that would help you break through creative ruts. And that was really inspiring to me. And so I wanted to include not those direct ones, of course, but in similar vein and slowly over the course.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Building customizable ergonomic keyboards (Interview)
$2,000.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Building customizable ergonomic keyboards (Interview)
Then he got back to me.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Building customizable ergonomic keyboards (Interview)
And then of course, we wanted some of the cards to have graphics on them. All the cards have graphics, but we wanted some in full color. So then we made that into a complete art ensemble project where we paid eight different artists each to make a part of the deck in their own style. And then we get to feature those artists and share who they are and all that.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Building customizable ergonomic keyboards (Interview)
Yeah. Then he emailed me back and said, okay, no, you know what? There's something here, but we need money to get off the ground. So here comes crowdfunding. And we did a crowdfunding campaign, our first and so far our last. I'm in no rush to do that again. It was March when we launched the campaign and I was telling people, we're going to ship in December.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Building customizable ergonomic keyboards (Interview)
And then of course came the manufacturing part, which was also its own adventure because this product is made in China. It's actually our first product that's made in China. And that was a whole exploration around, okay, so how do I guarantee manufacturing conditions in China. And it turns out the toy industry has its own certification to make sure that the product is made ethically.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Building customizable ergonomic keyboards (Interview)
And how do I make sure the paper is sustainable? And that was a whole adventure there. And ta-da, a deck of cards. It's 120 cards. They come in two boxes. Like you have an overall big box, which then contains two smaller packs that are like pocket-sized.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Building customizable ergonomic keyboards (Interview)
And you can play any card game with it, like any existing card game with it, but you can also play a bunch of modern, different card games with it.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Building customizable ergonomic keyboards (Interview)
We are actually in the process of writing an entire book about ZSA cards right now, featuring both how you can use it for games, but also how you can use it as part of your creative process or in a team-building context to kind of, as an icebreaker, to open up communication there, or to people as conversation cards. So if you are a game designer or you know one who might be interested, email me.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Building customizable ergonomic keyboards (Interview)
We'll talk because we're currently working on this book and collecting games. That's so wild.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Building customizable ergonomic keyboards (Interview)
Yeah, it was an adventure. It was like a good, a deep one, yeah.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Building customizable ergonomic keyboards (Interview)
Oh yeah, oh yeah.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Building customizable ergonomic keyboards (Interview)
That is a fun one.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Building customizable ergonomic keyboards (Interview)
Yeah, and it's actually interesting that we got there from marketing because this is my marketing tool. Like every card has the ZSA logo on it. And when I showed the deck to someone for the first time, he kind of took the card and flipped it over and was like, what's ZSA? I was like, score, it works, right? I mean, that's exactly.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Building customizable ergonomic keyboards (Interview)
I found it fun and interesting to create a marketing product that actually takes people away from the screen and into contact with other humans in the same room and doing something socially. I thought that was very fun to try and contribute to.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Building customizable ergonomic keyboards (Interview)
Yes. That's awesome. Thank you.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Building customizable ergonomic keyboards (Interview)
Yeah, no, I think this was a lot of fun, honestly. I always feel like I spoke too much. I hope I didn't say anything too silly. But yeah, no, I think it was quite wide ranging, really.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Building customizable ergonomic keyboards (Interview)
Back us now, we're shipping this keyword in December. And... We did. We ran the campaign for two months. We raised 80,000 US, which was what we needed. And in December, the first Ergodoxys were being shipped to customers, which is really the accomplishment here for me, right? Because... crowdfunding campaigns for hardware notoriously late.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Building customizable ergonomic keyboards (Interview)
That's exciting. Thank you.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Building customizable ergonomic keyboards (Interview)
Very cool. Awesome. Thank you.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Building customizable ergonomic keyboards (Interview)
And it's a position of trust. You know, like people were really trusting me to deliver on this thing. I was unknown. Who is this guy even? He doesn't say why they trust you. Yeah, I don't know. I mean, maybe I came across his trust within the video. Who knows? But it was actually funny. There was a whole thing around the crowdfunding because some people initially thought, It was a scam, actually.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Building customizable ergonomic keyboards (Interview)
Some people thought, oh, these people are just, who are they even? Because the keyboard world is very much a community. It's tight-knit. And I was not of that community. I'm not really a social media type of person. And I don't hang out on forums and stuff. It's not something I enjoy so much. So nobody knew who I was.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Building customizable ergonomic keyboards (Interview)
So in fact, some people at the very beginning thought, oh, these guys are scammers. They're trying to cheat people out of their money. They're never going to ship this. Who is this guy even? So we actually had to revet at some point with Indiegogo and tell them, no, no, here's Tebow Technology. This is the company that's going to make this. This is a real manufacturer in Taiwan, all lined up.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Building customizable ergonomic keyboards (Interview)
And they were like, OK, fine. And then, yes, we did ship. But it was definitely a leap of faith for the people who backed us. And we rose up to it. And I think, yeah, I was happy. And the people who got the keyboard were happy.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Building customizable ergonomic keyboards (Interview)
let alone have to learn how to assemble and build it to do the change you know what i mean like you're cutting out a lot of things in that process oh yeah no for sure having something that comes nice out of the box you just simply take it out of the box you plug it in and it works and something there's also the whole configuration aspect of it that really has to do with what is ergonomics, right?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Building customizable ergonomic keyboards (Interview)
So it always gets me when I see ergonomic keyboards that work one way. So I know it's probably ergonomic or comfortable for hopefully the person who designed it. I guess it works for them. But maybe my hands are a different size or maybe some of my fingers are more or less nimble than others. So there's the whole question of once you plug the keyboard in, can you customize it?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Building customizable ergonomic keyboards (Interview)
Can you adapt it so that it works for you? And before with these keyboards, well, and with some of these keywords to this day, you go to the source code. There is a beautiful piece of code called QMK, stands for quantum mechanical keyboard. And that's a spinoff of TMK, which is an even earlier mechanical keyboard firmware. But QMK is very, very powerful.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Building customizable ergonomic keyboards (Interview)
It lets you do many, many things with your keyboard. You can have layers. You can have one key that you can tap and hold or tap, tap, or like a whole bunch of, or like a combo where you mash six keys at the same time and you get something on your screen. All sorts of stuff.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Building customizable ergonomic keyboards (Interview)
It's like, exactly.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Building customizable ergonomic keyboards (Interview)
tarmac thing or this colmac thing we were just we were talking to uh to a user in new york the other day and uh he was showing his keyboard and he got all blanks and he says yeah uh when i when i ordered from you it was all printed keycaps but that was too friendly to people who warned me so i swapped out the keycaps for blanks and now like nobody can use it yeah it's a feature only yeah there you go
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Building customizable ergonomic keyboards (Interview)
So you plug in the keyboard and you want to change how it works. So in the past, and in some other keywords now, you kind of go to the code. You need to know a little bit of C and be comfortable compiling stuff locally and building and installing the make toolchain and all that.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Building customizable ergonomic keyboards (Interview)
And I felt there was value in having a graphical configurator, a way that I can click stuff on my screen and see the keyboard and just change things in a browser, hit compile, and all that is done for me. And then I just get a binary file. It goes onto the keyboard. And all the smarts still live on the keyboard, but I didn't have to write all the code. Well, that's very smart. Yeah, it's fun.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Building customizable ergonomic keyboards (Interview)
It allows people to iterate and allows people to truly adapt the keyboard to what they need. Because if it's a high friction process, if it's really hard to change the keyboard to do what you need it to do, you're just going to stick with that as it came out of the box and you're missing out. So the game is to make it easy for people to adapt it to what they want to do.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Building customizable ergonomic keyboards (Interview)
So you take it out of the box, you plug it in, you go to an app in the browser, which, by the way, is freely available. You can play with the app before you buy. It's right there. You don't even need an account or anything. So you kind of get a sense for what it can do. You play around with this app, modify, compile, flash it onto the keyboard. All of this happens in the browser.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Building customizable ergonomic keyboards (Interview)
And then you type. And then you realize, oh, man, this isn't working for me. This key is... Uncomfortable. It's too much of a reach for my pinky. So you go in and you move that key, right? You just, for example, my, I don't like reaching for the space key. It's for the shift key. I'm sorry. I don't like reaching for the shift key. So my shift key is the same key as my space bar on my Voyager.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Building customizable ergonomic keyboards (Interview)
So when I hit it, it gives me a space. But if I want to capitalize a letter, I just hold down on the same key. and it becomes a shift. Nice. And that's under my thumb. That's why I'm doing the thing. If you're watching the video, that's my left thumb. So that level of adaptability makes a difference.