Dr Vanessa Heggie

So he successfully overwinters, but then when the ice melts in the summer, his crew are like, well, we're going home now and he wants to go further north, so there's a mutiny.

So he successfully overwinters, but then when the ice melts in the summer, his crew are like, well, we're going home now and he wants to go further north, so there's a mutiny.

It was the Discovery.

It was the Discovery.

1610.

1610.

Well, we don't have certain reports of what happened on the mutiny because obviously we only have the mutineer's story about what happened.

Well, we don't have certain reports of what happened on the mutiny because obviously we only have the mutineer's story about what happened.

Yes.

Yes.

So we got a journal from the ship's navigator who's called Abacut Prickett. And apparently... Such a great name.

So we got a journal from the ship's navigator who's called Abacut Prickett. And apparently... Such a great name.

It's pretty much exactly that. He basically said that there was some rumour that Hudson was hoarding food and the men didn't like that. And then apparently there was some sort of dispute over a stolen...

It's pretty much exactly that. He basically said that there was some rumour that Hudson was hoarding food and the men didn't like that. And then apparently there was some sort of dispute over a stolen...

and fundamentally the outcome was allegedly alive and well, Hudson, his teenage son, 700 crew members were put in a small boat with supplies and kind of sent off into Hudson's Bay to fend for themselves and the Discovery sailed home with everybody else.

and fundamentally the outcome was allegedly alive and well, Hudson, his teenage son, 700 crew members were put in a small boat with supplies and kind of sent off into Hudson's Bay to fend for themselves and the Discovery sailed home with everybody else.

And it's never seen again.

And it's never seen again.

Sure, the stories are going to be all the same, which is people going, getting lost, getting trapped in the ice and coming home or not coming home. I think one of the big stories is the expedition by Jens Monk, who was sent out by the Danish king. And that was just notable because he lost all but three of his crew due to scurvy and came back. So that was 1619.

Sure, the stories are going to be all the same, which is people going, getting lost, getting trapped in the ice and coming home or not coming home. I think one of the big stories is the expedition by Jens Monk, who was sent out by the Danish king. And that was just notable because he lost all but three of his crew due to scurvy and came back. So that was 1619.

So there's a little bit of a lull in the 17th century. People aren't trying for the Northwest Passage for obvious reasons.

So there's a little bit of a lull in the 17th century. People aren't trying for the Northwest Passage for obvious reasons.

But there's this infrastructure being set up. So the Hudson's Bay Company is founded in the 1670s. And the result of that is it's setting up forts and trading posts and ports to enable fur trade and things like that. And that's a resource that the Arctic explorers could start using.

But there's this infrastructure being set up. So the Hudson's Bay Company is founded in the 1670s. And the result of that is it's setting up forts and trading posts and ports to enable fur trade and things like that. And that's a resource that the Arctic explorers could start using.

And it also means that quite a few people are getting their first experience of the Arctic on land working for the Hudson's Bay Company. And then they try for the route itself.

And it also means that quite a few people are getting their first experience of the Arctic on land working for the Hudson's Bay Company. And then they try for the route itself.

It's both. It's a luxury when you get it home to Europe. But in the Arctic, obviously, it's incredibly practical and incredibly useful, although it can be quite difficult to work with. So you do need to learn some local and indigenous skills in order to be able to stitch it into something that actually functions in this space.

It's both. It's a luxury when you get it home to Europe. But in the Arctic, obviously, it's incredibly practical and incredibly useful, although it can be quite difficult to work with. So you do need to learn some local and indigenous skills in order to be able to stitch it into something that actually functions in this space.

Yeah, and it'd be using the resources of the Hudson's Bay Company for things like that. And you would sometimes also...

Yeah, and it'd be using the resources of the Hudson's Bay Company for things like that. And you would sometimes also...

hire indigenous trackers to come with you as well so it would be a small group usually doing this sort of expedition and often some of you would go one way and leave supplies for the others and things like that so it's quite complex he concludes the passage is just further north than he can get right he just sort of goes i've done a lot of walking and i still can't find it so i you know

hire indigenous trackers to come with you as well so it would be a small group usually doing this sort of expedition and often some of you would go one way and leave supplies for the others and things like that so it's quite complex he concludes the passage is just further north than he can get right he just sort of goes i've done a lot of walking and i still can't find it so i you know

It's a bit like that. And they're also saying things like that is called barren plains for a reason.

It's a bit like that. And they're also saying things like that is called barren plains for a reason.

Please don't trek across that.

Please don't trek across that.

So he's one of those people who got their experience in the Arctic and at the grand old age of 60 decided to try for the Northwest Passage and... sailed out and again disappeared. We found his boat in the Hudson's Bay in the 1990s.

So he's one of those people who got their experience in the Arctic and at the grand old age of 60 decided to try for the Northwest Passage and... sailed out and again disappeared. We found his boat in the Hudson's Bay in the 1990s.

I think it's more nice that we found them. I mean, there's some lovely artefacts and things being brought up, but as we'll discover, it's often the case that when you bring up a shipwreck, it poses more questions than it answers. Like, why on earth were they here? What were they doing?

I think it's more nice that we found them. I mean, there's some lovely artefacts and things being brought up, but as we'll discover, it's often the case that when you bring up a shipwreck, it poses more questions than it answers. Like, why on earth were they here? What were they doing?

Not really. He has exactly the same experience in that he tries going through the Bering Sea and then discovers a wall of ice, retreats back for restocking. And unfortunately, this is when he lands in Hawaii in 1779 and gets murdered. So not a good outcome, but at least he didn't sink, I guess.

Not really. He has exactly the same experience in that he tries going through the Bering Sea and then discovers a wall of ice, retreats back for restocking. And unfortunately, this is when he lands in Hawaii in 1779 and gets murdered. So not a good outcome, but at least he didn't sink, I guess.

His second in command, Charles Clark, takes over. They have another go through the Bering Strait, still find ice. And it's actually one of his crew members, George Vancouver. I think the name is a clue here.

His second in command, Charles Clark, takes over. They have another go through the Bering Strait, still find ice. And it's actually one of his crew members, George Vancouver. I think the name is a clue here.

Like huge explorations up the west coast of Canada and Alaska in the 1790s. And he concludes that the Northwest Passage, if it exists, is so far north, it will never be free of ice. Like there's no way to pop out on the Pacific side because it will always be frozen.

Like huge explorations up the west coast of Canada and Alaska in the 1790s. And he concludes that the Northwest Passage, if it exists, is so far north, it will never be free of ice. Like there's no way to pop out on the Pacific side because it will always be frozen.

Definitely. We are peak hunt for the Northwest Patage time now. We're into the 19th century. It's all really kicking off. So Sir John Barrow is second secretary to the Admiralty. He really pushes not just for Northwest Passage, but also for attempts at the North Pole as well. This is, again, partly for trade and power and the rest of it. But it's also the fact that America is now independent.

Definitely. We are peak hunt for the Northwest Patage time now. We're into the 19th century. It's all really kicking off. So Sir John Barrow is second secretary to the Admiralty. He really pushes not just for Northwest Passage, but also for attempts at the North Pole as well. This is, again, partly for trade and power and the rest of it. But it's also the fact that America is now independent.

So there's now pressures on the British in the sort of North American regions. Russia has now taken Alaska. So they're not the only power in the area. The French are there. There's a lot going on. Russia has taken Alaska? Yep, Russia's in Alaska.

So there's now pressures on the British in the sort of North American regions. Russia has now taken Alaska. So they're not the only power in the area. The French are there. There's a lot going on. Russia has taken Alaska? Yep, Russia's in Alaska.

I want to say 1880 purchase. Check that.

I want to say 1880 purchase. Check that.

Okay. So there's lots of political pressures on the British in this area. They're not the dominant power anymore.

Okay. So there's lots of political pressures on the British in this area. They're not the dominant power anymore.

And also we've just had the Napoleonic Wars. And there's this massive well-resourced navy who kind of don't have any more battles to fight. So it's useful for them to have something else to do. And so the Northwest Passage is kind of part of that.

And also we've just had the Napoleonic Wars. And there's this massive well-resourced navy who kind of don't have any more battles to fight. So it's useful for them to have something else to do. And so the Northwest Passage is kind of part of that.

No, he sends out two different expeditions in 1818 in two different directions, and both of them find an impenetrable wall of ice and have to come home.

No, he sends out two different expeditions in 1818 in two different directions, and both of them find an impenetrable wall of ice and have to come home.

You may be surprised later on to find out what they really did.

You may be surprised later on to find out what they really did.

No, definitely not. And obviously, Russia being in Alaska had an advantage and the Russians were sponsoring a couple of deliberate attempts at the Northwest Passage themselves at this time. But I think also there's a lot of other nations who are in the area more to do allegedly scientific work or exploratory work, not necessarily just the Northwest Passage.

No, definitely not. And obviously, Russia being in Alaska had an advantage and the Russians were sponsoring a couple of deliberate attempts at the Northwest Passage themselves at this time. But I think also there's a lot of other nations who are in the area more to do allegedly scientific work or exploratory work, not necessarily just the Northwest Passage.

So the Danes managed to finish their mapping of Greenland's east coast in 1829. And there's a specific... three-way research expedition with the French and the Norwegians and the Swedes that they actually call the research expedition that's going around and mapping things and checking the weather and tides and doing things like that. There's a lot of North European nations.

So the Danes managed to finish their mapping of Greenland's east coast in 1829. And there's a specific... three-way research expedition with the French and the Norwegians and the Swedes that they actually call the research expedition that's going around and mapping things and checking the weather and tides and doing things like that. There's a lot of North European nations.

asserting their right to be in the Arctic doing science and exploring.

asserting their right to be in the Arctic doing science and exploring.

Just mapping it. No research.

Just mapping it. No research.

John Franklin. So by this point in the 1840s, he's quite famous. He's a well-known naval explorer and sailor. He has experience in Arctic waters. He'd circumnavigated Australia with Matthew Flinders and got shipwrecked in the Torres Strait and then had to come home overland through China. So he's had plenty of experience.

John Franklin. So by this point in the 1840s, he's quite famous. He's a well-known naval explorer and sailor. He has experience in Arctic waters. He'd circumnavigated Australia with Matthew Flinders and got shipwrecked in the Torres Strait and then had to come home overland through China. So he's had plenty of experience.

Antarctic just means no bears. Anti-bear.

Antarctic just means no bears. Anti-bear.

He was actually one of the crews on that first 1818 expedition out that John Barrow sent out. He'd done an overland expedition to find passage in 1819. And in 1823, he'd had a third expedition out by sea. And that was the one that really made his name because he came back with really good maps of the area. He wrote a popular book and he got knighted.

He was actually one of the crews on that first 1818 expedition out that John Barrow sent out. He'd done an overland expedition to find passage in 1819. And in 1823, he'd had a third expedition out by sea. And that was the one that really made his name because he came back with really good maps of the area. He wrote a popular book and he got knighted.

So he was really well known as an Arctic explorer at this point. He seems to be bored at home and he asked to be reposted. And in 1837, he's sent out to be the Lieutenant Governor of Tasmania or Van Diemen's Land, as it was known then. This does not go well for him. This is a very violent, rough penal colony. There's terrible treatment of the prisoners.

So he was really well known as an Arctic explorer at this point. He seems to be bored at home and he asked to be reposted. And in 1837, he's sent out to be the Lieutenant Governor of Tasmania or Van Diemen's Land, as it was known then. This does not go well for him. This is a very violent, rough penal colony. There's terrible treatment of the prisoners.

There had been the mass killings and almost extermination of the Aboriginal people there. He does not manage this particularly well. Neither he nor his wife seem to get on with the local politicians or power players or the press. They aren't able to bring in any of the reforms they want. And in the end, he kind of is relieved from the post in about 1843.

There had been the mass killings and almost extermination of the Aboriginal people there. He does not manage this particularly well. Neither he nor his wife seem to get on with the local politicians or power players or the press. They aren't able to bring in any of the reforms they want. And in the end, he kind of is relieved from the post in about 1843.

And he's coming home under a bit of a cloud.

And he's coming home under a bit of a cloud.

Barrow has a list of alternative people, all with Arctic experience, who he wants. But pretty much most of them turn it down. At least one of them turned it down because apparently he'd promised his wife he'd never go back to the Arctic again. One of them is turned down by the Admiralty for being too young.

Barrow has a list of alternative people, all with Arctic experience, who he wants. But pretty much most of them turn it down. At least one of them turned it down because apparently he'd promised his wife he'd never go back to the Arctic again. One of them is turned down by the Admiralty for being too young.

And he kind of ends up with his last choice of Franklin, who is 59 at this point, fresh back from Tasmania, really keen to sort of get back his reputation, which he feels has been tarnished by what's happened. So on the 19th of May, 1845, the HMS Erebus under Franklin and the HMS Terror under Crozier. Crozier had been offered the position to lead and he'd apparently turned it down out of modesty.

And he kind of ends up with his last choice of Franklin, who is 59 at this point, fresh back from Tasmania, really keen to sort of get back his reputation, which he feels has been tarnished by what's happened. So on the 19th of May, 1845, the HMS Erebus under Franklin and the HMS Terror under Crozier. Crozier had been offered the position to lead and he'd apparently turned it down out of modesty.

So those two guys are together.

So those two guys are together.

Yeah, he's in charge of the second boat.

Yeah, he's in charge of the second boat.

These are naval ships, so it's probably the Admiralty.

These are naval ships, so it's probably the Admiralty.

Yeah, but they've been souped up, basically. So they've got an internal central heating system that's steam powered. And they have these very fancy, powerful screw propellers that are reinforced with steel. And they're supposed to enable the ships to actually pass through at least loose pack ice and do a bit of ice breaking as well.

Yeah, but they've been souped up, basically. So they've got an internal central heating system that's steam powered. And they have these very fancy, powerful screw propellers that are reinforced with steel. And they're supposed to enable the ships to actually pass through at least loose pack ice and do a bit of ice breaking as well.

The screw is a backup, basically.

The screw is a backup, basically.

Yeah. And they are vastly provisioned as well. So the plan is to have at least three years of food supplies in there because we know the Arctic is resource limited. So they're taking things like 8,000 tins of food with them.

Yeah. And they are vastly provisioned as well. So the plan is to have at least three years of food supplies in there because we know the Arctic is resource limited. So they're taking things like 8,000 tins of food with them.

This is a problem, though.

This is a problem, though.

No, definitely. And the issue is that they're planning it at quite short notice. So the tins have to be made really, really quickly. And the supplier, Stephen Goldner, ended up doing them as a rush job. So some of the lead soldering from the outside wasn't applied properly and has dripped down inside the cans.

No, definitely. And the issue is that they're planning it at quite short notice. So the tins have to be made really, really quickly. And the supplier, Stephen Goldner, ended up doing them as a rush job. So some of the lead soldering from the outside wasn't applied properly and has dripped down inside the cans.

Just sit there in the hull for two years.

Just sit there in the hull for two years.

Lipstick would be made of beeswax. You could probably eat it. It's better than eating boots, right?

Lipstick would be made of beeswax. You could probably eat it. It's better than eating boots, right?

Can you get a fray bentos? Fray bentos is about 1880. It's a little bit later.

Can you get a fray bentos? Fray bentos is about 1880. It's a little bit later.

But it would be it would be tinned salted meat and tinned salted vegetables as well and occasionally fruits.

But it would be it would be tinned salted meat and tinned salted vegetables as well and occasionally fruits.

Citrus fruits, there's lime juice and lemon juice. You might also get things like pretty much everything you wanted to store would be in a tins. You might even get stuff like tinned salted butter and stuff for early supplies.

Citrus fruits, there's lime juice and lemon juice. You might also get things like pretty much everything you wanted to store would be in a tins. You might even get stuff like tinned salted butter and stuff for early supplies.

So we stop at Orkney for some fresh water and then we finally sail on to Greenland where we go to Disco Bay, call up, bring in some fresh meat supplies.

So we stop at Orkney for some fresh water and then we finally sail on to Greenland where we go to Disco Bay, call up, bring in some fresh meat supplies.

Thank you. Thank you.

Thank you. Thank you.

Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

It sure is. The Arctic Passage is a seaway between the Atlantic and the Pacific Ocean going through the Arctic Ocean. It's a maze of hundreds of different islands and also a lot of sea ice. So it goes across the top of the North American continent.

It sure is. The Arctic Passage is a seaway between the Atlantic and the Pacific Ocean going through the Arctic Ocean. It's a maze of hundreds of different islands and also a lot of sea ice. So it goes across the top of the North American continent.

Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

And it's probably many northwest passages because obviously the way you sail through it will depend on how big your ship is and where the ice is at any one time.

And it's probably many northwest passages because obviously the way you sail through it will depend on how big your ship is and where the ice is at any one time.

Thank you. Thank you.

Thank you. Thank you.

Yes.

Yes.

But not for a large boat.

But not for a large boat.

So the whole point of it is still... You can't trade in a small kayak to China.

So the whole point of it is still... You can't trade in a small kayak to China.

Well, it's sort of between Russia and America.

Well, it's sort of between Russia and America.

We invented planes and then it didn't matter so much.

We invented planes and then it didn't matter so much.

Yeah, so there are still competing versions about what exactly happened to the expedition. Lots of people have gone back to look for more relics, more skeletons and so on to recollect the testimony. There's an idea that some of the men didn't die entirely on the walk.

Yeah, so there are still competing versions about what exactly happened to the expedition. Lots of people have gone back to look for more relics, more skeletons and so on to recollect the testimony. There's an idea that some of the men didn't die entirely on the walk.

They may actually have gone back to one of the ships, remanned it and sailed it a little distance, and then it sunk, and that's where the find is.

They may actually have gone back to one of the ships, remanned it and sailed it a little distance, and then it sunk, and that's where the find is.

It's definitely a theory. We exhumed the bodies on the island in 1984 and did proper forensics on them. And that's when they were discovered to have very high levels of lead. So there was a strong theory that actually lead poisoning led to some of the deaths. Although even there, there's some questions because people in the 19th century had much higher levels of lead in their body anyway.

It's definitely a theory. We exhumed the bodies on the island in 1984 and did proper forensics on them. And that's when they were discovered to have very high levels of lead. So there was a strong theory that actually lead poisoning led to some of the deaths. Although even there, there's some questions because people in the 19th century had much higher levels of lead in their body anyway.

That's actually part of the problem is that the levels of lead recorded in the hair over time don't quite match with when they should have been eating the tins. So maybe it wasn't that. So even that is in dispute. And a lot of hope was pinned on finding the boats. Because if we get the boats, then we'll get the answers. They were declared a National Historic Site for Canada in 1992.

That's actually part of the problem is that the levels of lead recorded in the hair over time don't quite match with when they should have been eating the tins. So maybe it wasn't that. So even that is in dispute. And a lot of hope was pinned on finding the boats. Because if we get the boats, then we'll get the answers. They were declared a National Historic Site for Canada in 1992.

And that's before they were found. So they were a historic site and no one knew where they were, which I think is quite fun. And it's again with Indigenous testimony, Parks Canada finally managed to find both of the boats. They got the Erebus in 2014. and the terror in 2016. But even here, that's just caused more problems in some cases. So the terror wasn't quite where they thought it should be.

And that's before they were found. So they were a historic site and no one knew where they were, which I think is quite fun. And it's again with Indigenous testimony, Parks Canada finally managed to find both of the boats. They got the Erebus in 2014. and the terror in 2016. But even here, that's just caused more problems in some cases. So the terror wasn't quite where they thought it should be.

It didn't have its anchor down, so it looked like it had been sailing. Some hatches are open, some are closed. So was it sinking or not sinking? There's a small boat on it, so why didn't they use that for evacuation if it sank? There's just more questions to be answered. We don't really know the detailed, complete fate of everyone on that expedition still.

It didn't have its anchor down, so it looked like it had been sailing. Some hatches are open, some are closed. So was it sinking or not sinking? There's a small boat on it, so why didn't they use that for evacuation if it sank? There's just more questions to be answered. We don't really know the detailed, complete fate of everyone on that expedition still.

Funny, that became a department store. Did it? Yeah, Hudson's Bay Company.

Funny, that became a department store. Did it? Yeah, Hudson's Bay Company.

I believe it takes its roots from there, yeah.

I believe it takes its roots from there, yeah.

Okay, I want to undermine the entire point of this episode by asking people to think about how incredibly boring exploration actually is. That might seem counterintuitive because exploration is about movement and adventure and novelty.

Okay, I want to undermine the entire point of this episode by asking people to think about how incredibly boring exploration actually is. That might seem counterintuitive because exploration is about movement and adventure and novelty.

But the reality is that a lot of the Northwest Passage expeditions, particularly by sea, were frequently static because getting your boat stuck in the ice over winter was part of the tactic of getting around. And sometimes that ice didn't melt in the summer. So you could end up being stuck in the same place for a year, two years, same horizon, same contagion, same food for all of that time.

But the reality is that a lot of the Northwest Passage expeditions, particularly by sea, were frequently static because getting your boat stuck in the ice over winter was part of the tactic of getting around. And sometimes that ice didn't melt in the summer. So you could end up being stuck in the same place for a year, two years, same horizon, same contagion, same food for all of that time.

When we debate the legacy of great explorers, we often talk about their leadership skills and we tend, I think, to focus on the drama. Did they get their men through disaster and death and crisis? But I think we also need to think about how they motivated their teams and stopped them from being bored.

When we debate the legacy of great explorers, we often talk about their leadership skills and we tend, I think, to focus on the drama. Did they get their men through disaster and death and crisis? But I think we also need to think about how they motivated their teams and stopped them from being bored.

because that sort of basic psychology is a really crucial part of leadership, particularly for this sort of expedition. An iced-in boat does still need a certain amount of maintenance. You can keep people occupied swabbing decks and making food. You can send people out to do science. They can take the weather measurements. They can draw up maps and things like that, but it's not enough.

because that sort of basic psychology is a really crucial part of leadership, particularly for this sort of expedition. An iced-in boat does still need a certain amount of maintenance. You can keep people occupied swabbing decks and making food. You can send people out to do science. They can take the weather measurements. They can draw up maps and things like that, but it's not enough.

We also need arts and crafts. So you're going to have some men who are going to be painting, they're going to be sketching, they're going to be whittling, they're going to be singing. But these ships also put on, for example, extravagant theatrical productions with full sets, costumes and brand new musical songs.

We also need arts and crafts. So you're going to have some men who are going to be painting, they're going to be sketching, they're going to be whittling, they're going to be singing. But these ships also put on, for example, extravagant theatrical productions with full sets, costumes and brand new musical songs.

They also produce what we call zines, so amateur magazines that would have statistical plays and poems and drawings and cartoons that the men would actually sometimes take home as keepsakes of this really cool time they had in the ice with all of their friends, like a happy memory.

They also produce what we call zines, so amateur magazines that would have statistical plays and poems and drawings and cartoons that the men would actually sometimes take home as keepsakes of this really cool time they had in the ice with all of their friends, like a happy memory.

So the skill of the expedition leader is balancing that sort of irreverent fun with not losing respect and control, but also making sure that your men aren't bored. And they're doing this with this sort of eclectic mix of science and and exercise and food and celebration, but also crucially using the arts.

So the skill of the expedition leader is balancing that sort of irreverent fun with not losing respect and control, but also making sure that your men aren't bored. And they're doing this with this sort of eclectic mix of science and and exercise and food and celebration, but also crucially using the arts.

So as well as 8,000 tins, Franklin also took over 1,000 books on his voyage to stock the library to keep everyone interested. So there's a lot of lessons we can draw here, and I think the really crucial role of the arts to keeping up human morale is definitely in there.

So as well as 8,000 tins, Franklin also took over 1,000 books on his voyage to stock the library to keep everyone interested. So there's a lot of lessons we can draw here, and I think the really crucial role of the arts to keeping up human morale is definitely in there.

But what I'd like to emphasise is that while our most common image of exploration is this sort of macho adventure novelty, for a lot of the people a lot of the time, it's actually quite boring, routine, domestic work.

But what I'd like to emphasise is that while our most common image of exploration is this sort of macho adventure novelty, for a lot of the people a lot of the time, it's actually quite boring, routine, domestic work.

Well, it's mostly in the 21st century that it's regularly passage. There's some early stuff in the 1960s, but it's not until about 2008 that cargo ships can go through regularly. And the first proper luxury liner is 2016. It's probably going to be easier in the future as the amount of ice reduces quite significantly with climate change.

Well, it's mostly in the 21st century that it's regularly passage. There's some early stuff in the 1960s, but it's not until about 2008 that cargo ships can go through regularly. And the first proper luxury liner is 2016. It's probably going to be easier in the future as the amount of ice reduces quite significantly with climate change.

Thank you for inviting me. Pleasure.

Thank you for inviting me. Pleasure.

Quite possibly. But the time period we're talking about, it was much colder and it's much icier and it's much, much harder to navigate.

Quite possibly. But the time period we're talking about, it was much colder and it's much icier and it's much, much harder to navigate.

It's pretty much exactly there. I mean, the main appeal of it is it's a massive new trade route. It's a superhighway through to China. So Northern Europe can get to China and Asia without having to go around the bottom of South America or of Africa or going over land. And there's all those lovely Chinese luxury goods that you can trade for.

It's pretty much exactly there. I mean, the main appeal of it is it's a massive new trade route. It's a superhighway through to China. So Northern Europe can get to China and Asia without having to go around the bottom of South America or of Africa or going over land. And there's all those lovely Chinese luxury goods that you can trade for.

Intricately carved, yeah, walrus artefacts and things.

Intricately carved, yeah, walrus artefacts and things.

And they were moving around extensively in the area as well. So there's evidence of some migrations prior to the 12th century. And I think for this space, it's important to remember that it's quite resource scarce. So there'll be populations who'd be following food sources like walruses or like fish stocks.

And they were moving around extensively in the area as well. So there's evidence of some migrations prior to the 12th century. And I think for this space, it's important to remember that it's quite resource scarce. So there'll be populations who'd be following food sources like walruses or like fish stocks.

There's also evidence of trading between North American populations and sort of Norse populations as well. And there may also have been moving for other resources like iron deposits and stuff like that. So there's quite a lot of movement going on in the Arctic early on.

There's also evidence of trading between North American populations and sort of Norse populations as well. And there may also have been moving for other resources like iron deposits and stuff like that. So there's quite a lot of movement going on in the Arctic early on.

Yeah, and they're using much smaller vessels than the ones we're going to talk about later. So they're using sort of the skin and bark boats and also using sleds. They're doing a combination of water and land traverse to get across these spaces.

Yeah, and they're using much smaller vessels than the ones we're going to talk about later. So they're using sort of the skin and bark boats and also using sleds. They're doing a combination of water and land traverse to get across these spaces.

Sort of kayak styles and climatics and things like that, yeah.

Sort of kayak styles and climatics and things like that, yeah.

Well, there are reports of them landing on the Scottish northwest coast, so presumably from Greenland or possibly from the north coast of America.

Well, there are reports of them landing on the Scottish northwest coast, so presumably from Greenland or possibly from the north coast of America.

Yeah. I mean, it's allegedly, but there's evidence of small boats there.

Yeah. I mean, it's allegedly, but there's evidence of small boats there.

No, but you could get to the Faroe Islands and then get down to the Alps and then get down. If you think of it as a seaway, actually all these things are much closer together. They feel very remote to us, but that's because we don't travel by water.

No, but you could get to the Faroe Islands and then get down to the Alps and then get down. If you think of it as a seaway, actually all these things are much closer together. They feel very remote to us, but that's because we don't travel by water.

Well, I'm not sure we really know why he moved to England. There are little bits of his life that are mysterious. But he was there by the late 1400s. And the chances are that this is something to do with what Christopher Columbus is doing for Spain. So there's some interest in sending people out on voyages. And he gets permission, basically, from the king to set off for an Arctic voyage.

Well, I'm not sure we really know why he moved to England. There are little bits of his life that are mysterious. But he was there by the late 1400s. And the chances are that this is something to do with what Christopher Columbus is doing for Spain. So there's some interest in sending people out on voyages. And he gets permission, basically, from the king to set off for an Arctic voyage.

Has a fail in 1496. has a second go in a boat called the Matthew in 1497. He gets as far, we think, as the coast of Newfoundland, but he's mostly along sort of the coastline of Quebec around the coast of Canada. He names some things, unfurls a flag, gets very excited about it, comes back home thinking that he's discovered China.

Has a fail in 1496. has a second go in a boat called the Matthew in 1497. He gets as far, we think, as the coast of Newfoundland, but he's mostly along sort of the coastline of Quebec around the coast of Canada. He names some things, unfurls a flag, gets very excited about it, comes back home thinking that he's discovered China.

No, he's definitely not alone in getting quite confused about where he is. There's also the Italian explorer Giovanni di Verrazzano. He sails a huge part of the North American coast all the way from Florida, again, pretty much up to Newfoundland. And he's looking specifically for the Northwest Passage. And he thinks he finds it, but he finds it much further south than anyone expected it to be.

No, he's definitely not alone in getting quite confused about where he is. There's also the Italian explorer Giovanni di Verrazzano. He sails a huge part of the North American coast all the way from Florida, again, pretty much up to Newfoundland. And he's looking specifically for the Northwest Passage. And he thinks he finds it, but he finds it much further south than anyone expected it to be.

And it turns out what he thought was the open Pacific Ocean, he'd actually landed about 3,000 kilometers south in North Carolina.

And it turns out what he thought was the open Pacific Ocean, he'd actually landed about 3,000 kilometers south in North Carolina.

It's possibly China.

It's possibly China.

Yeah, Frobisher is in fact our first English-born person to actually have a go at the Northwest Passage. He gets sponsorship from a private trading company, the Muscovy Company, and they're the people who have a monopoly on the trade between England and Russia. So they would really also like a monopoly on the trade to China as well. That would be really helpful for them.

Yeah, Frobisher is in fact our first English-born person to actually have a go at the Northwest Passage. He gets sponsorship from a private trading company, the Muscovy Company, and they're the people who have a monopoly on the trade between England and Russia. So they would really also like a monopoly on the trade to China as well. That would be really helpful for them.

And they managed to sponsor him for three expeditions in the 1570s. But every case he finds the ice is too dense for him to get through. On his first expedition, he allegedly has five of his crew kidnapped by indigenous peoples. And then kind of in return on another expedition, he himself adopts three Inuk people and takes them back to the UK.

And they managed to sponsor him for three expeditions in the 1570s. But every case he finds the ice is too dense for him to get through. On his first expedition, he allegedly has five of his crew kidnapped by indigenous peoples. And then kind of in return on another expedition, he himself adopts three Inuk people and takes them back to the UK.

He takes an Inuk man who's Kalicho, an unrelated Inuk woman, Arnak, and her infant son, Natak. And I'm saying referred to because we obviously don't know what their actual names are. We only know what names were reported for them. So it might not be their original names. He takes them back to Bristol, shows them off to local people.

He takes an Inuk man who's Kalicho, an unrelated Inuk woman, Arnak, and her infant son, Natak. And I'm saying referred to because we obviously don't know what their actual names are. We only know what names were reported for them. So it might not be their original names. He takes them back to Bristol, shows them off to local people.

They are the first indigenous North American people to ever visit the UK, but they don't survive very long. All three of them die very soon after they land in the UK. Kalicho possibly from injuries from the abduction, but Arnak and her son from an infection, maybe measles.

They are the first indigenous North American people to ever visit the UK, but they don't survive very long. All three of them die very soon after they land in the UK. Kalicho possibly from injuries from the abduction, but Arnak and her son from an infection, maybe measles.

He did. He found a beach narwhal, which he referred to as a sea unicorn for obvious reasons.

He did. He found a beach narwhal, which he referred to as a sea unicorn for obvious reasons.

And he also found some really interesting black rocks which were shiny inside and he thought that he'd found gold. And that's part of the reason he managed to get funding for his second few expeditions was to find more gold. Gotcha. Unfortunately, it turned out to be false gold.

And he also found some really interesting black rocks which were shiny inside and he thought that he'd found gold. And that's part of the reason he managed to get funding for his second few expeditions was to find more gold. Gotcha. Unfortunately, it turned out to be false gold.

It's great to be back. Thanks for having me.

It's great to be back. Thanks for having me.

Yeah, well, he attempted the first ever overwintering in the Arctic. So the idea was to sail up, stay in the ice over the winter and then have a further sail afterwards to try and find the Northwest Passage. So to be fair, it was pretty challenging. He got as far as Labrador and he found what he thought was open sea. And it turns out to be what's now known as Hudson's Bay.

Yeah, well, he attempted the first ever overwintering in the Arctic. So the idea was to sail up, stay in the ice over the winter and then have a further sail afterwards to try and find the Northwest Passage. So to be fair, it was pretty challenging. He got as far as Labrador and he found what he thought was open sea. And it turns out to be what's now known as Hudson's Bay.

And that's where they iced in. And I think it's probably worth saying why this space is so confusing to people. Because if you imagine you're in an absolutely massive sea bay... And all you can see in the far distance with your telescope is ice. It's not clear whether that's actually land or if it's just an ice barrier that's going to melt in the summer.

And that's where they iced in. And I think it's probably worth saying why this space is so confusing to people. Because if you imagine you're in an absolutely massive sea bay... And all you can see in the far distance with your telescope is ice. It's not clear whether that's actually land or if it's just an ice barrier that's going to melt in the summer.

So it's that sort of thing that's confusing them.

So it's that sort of thing that's confusing them.

Exactly. And when there's all these hundreds of islands, they can sometimes be connected by ice. And you don't know if that's one single piece of land or if in the summer you'll be able to sail on through because the ice will melt. So that's why people keep getting lost and confused because it's really hard what it's going to look like in the summer when you're there in the winter and vice versa.

Exactly. And when there's all these hundreds of islands, they can sometimes be connected by ice. And you don't know if that's one single piece of land or if in the summer you'll be able to sail on through because the ice will melt. So that's why people keep getting lost and confused because it's really hard what it's going to look like in the summer when you're there in the winter and vice versa.