Dr. Robin Stern
Appearances
We Can Do Hard Things
Are You Being Gaslighted? with Dr. Robin Stern (Best Of)
when he would come late to dinner or late to the kids' choral concert or late to the school meeting. And he would tell me, don't start, I'm fine. If you have a problem with my being late, Maybe you need to see someone about it. And so you could tell the relationship was already devolving anyway. But I began to think. And I was writing about gaslighting at the time.
We Can Do Hard Things
Are You Being Gaslighted? with Dr. Robin Stern (Best Of)
And I was somebody who was pretty confident in my own perceptions. And I was working at a psychoanalytic institute. And I was teaching about reality. I was teaching what is subjective reality and objective reality. And I'm watching this process in my own mind. And thinking, he's gaslighting me. But what if he's right? Yes. And it was amazing to me.
We Can Do Hard Things
Are You Being Gaslighted? with Dr. Robin Stern (Best Of)
And I think that I managed to be so fascinated by the fact that it was happening that I wasn't really feeling the discomfort about it for quite some time. Because we can get into the explanation trap. Oh, this is really fascinating. Let's kind of figure this out. Rather than, I don't like this. I don't want this anymore.
We Can Do Hard Things
Are You Being Gaslighted? with Dr. Robin Stern (Best Of)
Well, thank you for that question and for the reminder that we have people who are listening because I was just here with you.
We Can Do Hard Things
Are You Being Gaslighted? with Dr. Robin Stern (Best Of)
Yeah. Well, if I can't say it here, really, where can I say that, right? First of all, it is never okay for someone to use anything about you to criticize you. And it's rarely about who's right and wrong. It's always about how do you feel? So if you are in a disagreement with someone, which is fine, we disagree with people. We bump up against people. That's how we know where our boundaries are.
We Can Do Hard Things
Are You Being Gaslighted? with Dr. Robin Stern (Best Of)
But if you're suddenly in this disagreement, and you feel like you're being psychologically beaten up, it's not okay. It's probably veering into gaslighting because there's a pivot. Gaslighting is, I say to you, hey, you know what, like you've been avoiding my phone calls. And I'm really uncomfortable with that. And you say, oh, I'm not, just don't worry about it. I'm just busy.
We Can Do Hard Things
Are You Being Gaslighted? with Dr. Robin Stern (Best Of)
And then I say it to you again, because I'm pretty sure that like that's happening. And you say to me, you know what? You're too needy. You're so sensitive. Like what's going on with you? Suddenly, and this is for the listeners, the conversation is no longer about
We Can Do Hard Things
Are You Being Gaslighted? with Dr. Robin Stern (Best Of)
That the person you're talking to didn't call you, didn't wait for you, didn't contact you.
We Can Do Hard Things
Are You Being Gaslighted? with Dr. Robin Stern (Best Of)
And if you're saying that, you're not dancing the gaslight tango because you are saying, you know what? You're right. I am sensitive. And can we get back to that thing I was talking about before that?
We Can Do Hard Things
Are You Being Gaslighted? with Dr. Robin Stern (Best Of)
Yeah. In my experience over three decades of working with people, many of whom have suffered and struggled with the gaslight effect, One of the hardest places to be is when you can't let go of that desire to change your gaslighter's mind. So he tells you, you're so paranoid or you're too sensitive or you're too needy or you're too whatever. And you can't stand that.
We Can Do Hard Things
Are You Being Gaslighted? with Dr. Robin Stern (Best Of)
You can't stand that he thinks that of you. And you've decided that you can't leave the relationship. Or you can't create the distance you want. You can't even limit it until you can convince him. Of course, you're not thinking it through. You're just in that moment of, I can't stand that.
We Can Do Hard Things
Are You Being Gaslighted? with Dr. Robin Stern (Best Of)
I always get this image of this one couple I worked with years ago where he would say, she follows me around the house. Like that's unacceptable. As if her response and her neediness was the problem as opposed to his gaslighting. But it does become a problem for the gaslighting. Because you do have an urge to be joined with your gaslighter.
We Can Do Hard Things
Are You Being Gaslighted? with Dr. Robin Stern (Best Of)
And if he's not going to come over, if you can't go to his side and you're defending yourself, you want him to come to your side.
We Can Do Hard Things
Are You Being Gaslighted? with Dr. Robin Stern (Best Of)
Yeah. I mean, we're going to hold hands and look at the world together. We're going to hold hands and be joined in the way we think about things. And when we feel that very strongly, when we have that need very strongly, then we have to agree. And most of the time in gaslighting relationships is if you can't get him to agree, then you're going to agree.
We Can Do Hard Things
Are You Being Gaslighted? with Dr. Robin Stern (Best Of)
Right. Become smaller and smaller. And and first, I'm sorry that you went through that. That sounds like it was most likely very painful. And I was wondering what happened between time one and time two. So time one, when you thought, like, don't be silly. And time two, when you were saying, wait, like, what did you see? What happened for you? Did you think about it at all?
We Can Do Hard Things
Are You Being Gaslighted? with Dr. Robin Stern (Best Of)
Or did you just think, I don't know what's wrong with him? He's like really being weird.
We Can Do Hard Things
Are You Being Gaslighted? with Dr. Robin Stern (Best Of)
Yeah, exactly. Because it's really important that he never gets upset because when he gets upset, he tells you there's something wrong with you.
We Can Do Hard Things
Are You Being Gaslighted? with Dr. Robin Stern (Best Of)
a woman came to therapy and said to me, my boyfriend told me that if, when we walked down the street, he liked me to look down at the pavement, because if I look at the pavement, then I won't be flirting with anyone else. And I don't really think I'm flirting with people, but like now when we go into a restaurant, I always take the chair facing the wall. And when I'm walking down the street,
We Can Do Hard Things
Are You Being Gaslighted? with Dr. Robin Stern (Best Of)
He asked me to do that. And what do you think? And it was very hard. And I can tell by your facial expressions that you get that it was very hard for this woman because it's true that if she looked at the pavement, that gaslighting wouldn't happen because he would never be triggered because she'd never do anything because she'd always be joined with him.
We Can Do Hard Things
Are You Being Gaslighted? with Dr. Robin Stern (Best Of)
But you're asking two different questions. One is like, do you have responsibility in getting into it? And then the second is, do you have agency to get out, right? So when I say you need to be willing to, You're complicit and it's not victim blaming. I mean, those of us who have been targeted did not wake up one morning and say, you know, this sounds like a good idea.
We Can Do Hard Things
Are You Being Gaslighted? with Dr. Robin Stern (Best Of)
I think that like I'll look for a gaslighting relationship and I'll be open to it. No. But when what's most important happens, is to preserve the relationship.
We Can Do Hard Things
Are You Being Gaslighted? with Dr. Robin Stern (Best Of)
When what's most important is to mirror this guy so he feels like you're empathic with him, so he's not gonna be angry at you and use the emotional apocalypse of threatening you or blaming you, criticizing you, then that allows you to walk into the dance. It allows you to say, well, tell me what I'm doing. Like, I won't do it again. Which you might've come to that conclusion anyway.
We Can Do Hard Things
Are You Being Gaslighted? with Dr. Robin Stern (Best Of)
Look, it makes you really uncomfortable and it doesn't seem like it's too much for you to give up. Maybe you would say that, but not while you're being put down and undermined because of it. So when using the word willing, my hope is that people will know if they can walk into it, they can walk out of it.
We Can Do Hard Things
Are You Being Gaslighted? with Dr. Robin Stern (Best Of)
That's right. And in a family, it's very confusing because most of the time when you're growing up in your family, as I was describing my own family where like angry explosions, just like that's normal. Well, it's kind of not right. And parents saying, you're not hungry. You're tired telling you what you feel or teaching you over time.
We Can Do Hard Things
Are You Being Gaslighted? with Dr. Robin Stern (Best Of)
That you don't know how to trust your feelings and you shouldn't, in fact, trust your feelings. Or lying about their own, no, no, no, I'm fine when you just heard your mom crying on the phone. So when you're a child and you grow up, and even worse, when you grow up where the gaslighting is about you, you're worthless. You're just so lazy. You're not going to find anyone.
We Can Do Hard Things
Are You Being Gaslighted? with Dr. Robin Stern (Best Of)
And then that becomes your self-talk and that becomes the scared feelings, your vulnerable feelings that you never want to share with anyone, keeping you at a distance in all relationships. But when you can begin to critically think, and it has to be taught to you, maybe you don't leave, but then you say, I'm not having those conversations with my mom anymore.
We Can Do Hard Things
Are You Being Gaslighted? with Dr. Robin Stern (Best Of)
The undermining of who you think you are or something about you. It's not that you have a different opinion. It's that you don't know how to think straight. Of course, we have a different opinion about this because you don't know how to think straight. And here are the multiple examples of how you don't know how to think straight. Or you say that, but nobody would agree with you.
We Can Do Hard Things
Are You Being Gaslighted? with Dr. Robin Stern (Best Of)
Character or sanity or perception or feelings.
We Can Do Hard Things
Are You Being Gaslighted? with Dr. Robin Stern (Best Of)
Yes. Thank you for that because it's a really important piece. We forget that not all gaslighters are diabolical. Many of them are just like feeling fragmented in the moment on the spot. I got caught in something. And so how do I stabilize myself? How do I become what we call clinically cohesive? How do I bring myself together? How do I stand on the ground myself?
We Can Do Hard Things
Are You Being Gaslighted? with Dr. Robin Stern (Best Of)
Well, I'm going to do that by destabilizing you. Yeah.
We Can Do Hard Things
Are You Being Gaslighted? with Dr. Robin Stern (Best Of)
Exactly, exactly. Did you feel that in your relationship where there was that, like he needed to keep you by controlling you, right? Yes. Yeah. And so the minute you decide that you don't have to do that, Mm-hmm. is the same minute or the minute after you decide that you can live without him.
We Can Do Hard Things
Are You Being Gaslighted? with Dr. Robin Stern (Best Of)
Exactly. And that's so important. And it's one of the reasons why it often takes a third person.
We Can Do Hard Things
Are You Being Gaslighted? with Dr. Robin Stern (Best Of)
who comes in and says, what are you doing? This isn't like, you're not the same person you used to be. Like, I never see you anymore. This is crazy. And suddenly you realize that some of what you need, it's already there inside of you. And some of what you need can come from someone else.
We Can Do Hard Things
Are You Being Gaslighted? with Dr. Robin Stern (Best Of)
Thank you to start. Thank you. I am so excited to be here. And I can't think of anything I'd rather be doing right now than talking to you amazing women about gaslighting and just surviving hard things. Yes.
We Can Do Hard Things
Are You Being Gaslighted? with Dr. Robin Stern (Best Of)
Right. That's right. And then the worse it gets in your relationship or the more you feel ashamed or the more you have those very vulnerable feelings that you don't want to share or the crazier your gaslighter seems, you certainly don't want to tell your friends about it because you know what they're going to say, the more isolated you become. And so it just begins to feed on each other.
We Can Do Hard Things
Are You Being Gaslighted? with Dr. Robin Stern (Best Of)
And what's amazing, and I wonder, Amanda, whether this was true for you too, at the very beginning of a relationship, there are signs.
We Can Do Hard Things
Are You Being Gaslighted? with Dr. Robin Stern (Best Of)
Hmm. Somebody does something that you just think this is off, but you're not paying attention to that at that moment because what you're paying attention to is I'm so attracted to him. I think he's my soulmate. Oh my God, he's so smart. I've never been able to have a conversation like this. He's so kind. This is what I hear in my practice. He knows how to be intimate.
We Can Do Hard Things
Are You Being Gaslighted? with Dr. Robin Stern (Best Of)
Like I just need to be with him.
We Can Do Hard Things
Are You Being Gaslighted? with Dr. Robin Stern (Best Of)
I can't win this. That's not an unimportant thing that you just said. The fact that you would say, Abby- I'm hurt. I can't win this. I'm hurt. Like you're sharing your authentic self. You are able to have an authentic conversation. You trust enough that you can share your feelings.
We Can Do Hard Things
Are You Being Gaslighted? with Dr. Robin Stern (Best Of)
That's different than in a relationship where you really feel that every time you open your mouth, like, oh, there you go again, using your psychology on me, you know, or something.
We Can Do Hard Things
Are You Being Gaslighted? with Dr. Robin Stern (Best Of)
And it's such a familiar story. You know, you go on a date with somebody or you, you meet someone for the first time, you have a great connection and you go out to dinner and you write a nice note saying, great to meet you. And you don't hear from that person. And then a week later, that person calls you and says, you know, let's get together again. And you
We Can Do Hard Things
Are You Being Gaslighted? with Dr. Robin Stern (Best Of)
you're not thinking to yourself, do I want to get together with somebody who waited a week to respond to my text? Do I like that? And maybe the first time you say, okay, who knows, maybe she had COVID, maybe she was on a business trip, whatever. But when somebody regularly treats you like that, we are more like, what's going on with her? I wonder why she doesn't respond right away.
We Can Do Hard Things
Are You Being Gaslighted? with Dr. Robin Stern (Best Of)
I wonder if she had a bad experience with a relationship. or controlling mother or, you know, whatever it is that we can entertain ourselves. And I mean that we're literally with the drama that it becomes the drama becomes fascinating. And we completely forget that our heart is hurting. And we forget to just tune into our own feelings.
We Can Do Hard Things
Are You Being Gaslighted? with Dr. Robin Stern (Best Of)
Doesn't matter. As if you have to be justified. Why can't we just be? I mean, we are who we are, right?
We Can Do Hard Things
Are You Being Gaslighted? with Dr. Robin Stern (Best Of)
Exactly. You're still a goddamn cheetah.
We Can Do Hard Things
Are You Being Gaslighted? with Dr. Robin Stern (Best Of)
Every day. Exactly. Exactly.
We Can Do Hard Things
Are You Being Gaslighted? with Dr. Robin Stern (Best Of)
I agree. The intimidator is easy to spot because he's intimidating. He's cursing. Sadly, he may get violent. It's something that you need to watch for. And just nasty and critical and uses tone of voice and body posture, physical distance to make sure that you stay connected, you stay in line, that he's right. But the glamour gaslighter, he's just all about the show. He was just so cute.
We Can Do Hard Things
Are You Being Gaslighted? with Dr. Robin Stern (Best Of)
He brought his girlfriend flowers all the time and they'd have these blow ups. And then she wouldn't hear from him for a while. And she would be just on the verge of saying, this is not OK or I don't like this. And then he would arrive at her house and she would start to complain. And he would say, you know, I love you. Come on, it's not really a big deal. So it was four days.
We Can Do Hard Things
Are You Being Gaslighted? with Dr. Robin Stern (Best Of)
But look what I bought you. Some people might say, you know what, honey, I don't want a gift from you right now. Rather, you just treat me well. So save the gift for a time we're in a good place. But when you feel like your glamour gaslighter is larger than life, he's your soulmate. You've never met anyone as amazing. And you have that kind of idealizing going on. And he's a man of grand gestures.
We Can Do Hard Things
Are You Being Gaslighted? with Dr. Robin Stern (Best Of)
making you feel like you are the only person in the world for him at that moment. It's easy to fall into. And then the good guy gaslighter was so nice, very affable, very pleasant, can tell you you're crazy with a smile on his face. So when you walk away and you may have like a weekend long argument,
We Can Do Hard Things
Are You Being Gaslighted? with Dr. Robin Stern (Best Of)
Right, right, right. I get that. And after I wrote my book, I got a lot of email from people who said, guess what? You may be seeing this, but it's happening here and here and here. And in the recovery guide, I did add some things. lesbian couples. I added some guys who were gaslighted.
We Can Do Hard Things
Are You Being Gaslighted? with Dr. Robin Stern (Best Of)
thinking of a couple I worked with who argued for the whole weekend until Sunday night from Friday night about whether or not they would visit her parents. And he really didn't want to go. And he talked to her about how attached she felt to her parents and that was so wrong. And she had real issues with it. And in the end, he said, all right, we're going to go.
We Can Do Hard Things
Are You Being Gaslighted? with Dr. Robin Stern (Best Of)
And you've convinced me we're going to go. She was exhausted. She was exhausted in the relationship. And yet she felt like she had nothing to complain about because everyone liked him. He's a nice guy. Mild-mannered, agreeable, smile on his face.
We Can Do Hard Things
Are You Being Gaslighted? with Dr. Robin Stern (Best Of)
That's right. Because you can't point to the monster who just said to you, you're a bitch. Yeah. The nice guy just went to visit your parents. And so you end up in the therapist's office and you say, I don't know.
We Can Do Hard Things
Are You Being Gaslighted? with Dr. Robin Stern (Best Of)
Yeah. There's no connection because it's all a show for him. It's about him wanting to be the glamour gaslighter bringing you flowers.
We Can Do Hard Things
Are You Being Gaslighted? with Dr. Robin Stern (Best Of)
a beautiful wonderful thing but let's not use it as an excuse and just by the way i would say the narrative of your life is about boldness and courage and kindness and putting good things in the world
We Can Do Hard Things
Are You Being Gaslighted? with Dr. Robin Stern (Best Of)
had a feeling that I would love all of you and love being with you when I do. And I appreciate your questions and applaud what you're doing. When I told my sister-in-law today that I was going to be on your podcast, she said, oh my God, I listen to every one of them. So I was very excited about that. What is her name? Her name is Jackie Stern.
We Can Do Hard Things
Are You Being Gaslighted? with Dr. Robin Stern (Best Of)
That's right. Do I like the way this feels? Do I want to do it again?
We Can Do Hard Things
Are You Being Gaslighted? with Dr. Robin Stern (Best Of)
No need to collect evidence. Present self-compassion.
We Can Do Hard Things
Are You Being Gaslighted? with Dr. Robin Stern (Best Of)
So there was a play in England in 1938 by Patrick Hamilton that was a gaslight that was made into a popular movie with Ingrid Bergman and Charles Boyer in 1944. And I personally watched that movie maybe a dozen times before I, I wrote about gaslighting and coined the term gaslight effect. And in that movie, a, um,
We Can Do Hard Things
Are You Being Gaslighted? with Dr. Robin Stern (Best Of)
adoring wife allowed her husband to manipulate her objects in the room, lead her to question her sanity in the service of staying connected to him, in the service of not angering him, in the service of keeping herself in that loving relationship and allowing her own idealization and fantasy to continue. And her husband,
We Can Do Hard Things
Are You Being Gaslighted? with Dr. Robin Stern (Best Of)
who was a diabolical guy, who in that case was after her money and her aunt's jewels, was brilliant at manipulating her, at leading her to second guess herself. Shortly into the movie, he talks to her about how she's forgetful. And initially she says, That's so silly. Of course, I don't forget things. No, no, no. And then the audience watches him steal a piece of jewelry.
We Can Do Hard Things
Are You Being Gaslighted? with Dr. Robin Stern (Best Of)
He puts it in her like a bag that she's carrying on their outing. And we watch her looking for it. We know he stole it. And suddenly she's second guessing herself. Maybe I am forgetful as she's looking through her bag and you can watch her attention rise. So in like a seven minute clip, You can see the gaslighting going from stage one. That's so silly. Of course I have memory. To stage two.
We Can Do Hard Things
Are You Being Gaslighted? with Dr. Robin Stern (Best Of)
Maybe he's right. I am tired. Maybe I am more forgetful than I thought. And so I was just fascinated by that. What I was really fascinated by was the similarity as I became a therapist to women I was seeing who were on the outside together. and in charge of their lives and seem confident, just like the Ingrid Bergman character did in every area of their life.
We Can Do Hard Things
Are You Being Gaslighted? with Dr. Robin Stern (Best Of)
And then in this one area, in this intimate relationship, suddenly they couldn't even remember if they remembered correctly. And that was fascinating to me. How did this person give over their power? How did someone else get all that power to tell you that what you know is not right, that there's something wrong, and to completely beat up on your credibility.
We Can Do Hard Things
Are You Being Gaslighted? with Dr. Robin Stern (Best Of)
I'd be happy to read for the listeners just the list of red flags. That would be wonderful. And this is true with a little bit of a shift for work and for family too, although as we talked about, family is more complicated, but are you being gaslighted? If you answer yes, to one or more of these things than maybe you are. You're constantly second guessing yourself.
We Can Do Hard Things
Are You Being Gaslighted? with Dr. Robin Stern (Best Of)
You ask yourself, am I too sensitive a dozen times a day? You often feel confused and crazy, even at work. You're always apologizing to your mother, your father, your partner, your boss. You frequently wonder if you're good enough. You can't understand why with so many apparently good things in your life, you aren't happier.
We Can Do Hard Things
Are You Being Gaslighted? with Dr. Robin Stern (Best Of)
You buy clothes for yourself, furnishings for your apartment or other personal purchases with your partner in mind, thinking about what they would like instead of what would make you feel great. You frequently make excuses for your partner's behavior. You find yourself withholding information from friends and family so you don't have to explain or make excuses.
We Can Do Hard Things
Are You Being Gaslighted? with Dr. Robin Stern (Best Of)
You know something is wrong, but you can never quite express what it is, even to yourself. You start lying to avoid put downs and reality twists. You have trouble making simple decisions. You think twice before bringing up seemingly innocent topics of conversation. Before your partner comes home, you run through a checklist in your head to anticipate anything you might have done wrong that day.
We Can Do Hard Things
Are You Being Gaslighted? with Dr. Robin Stern (Best Of)
You have the sense that you used to be a very different person, more confident, more fun loving, more relaxed. You feel as though you can't do anything right. Your kids try to protect you from your partner. You find yourself furious with people you've always gotten along with. You feel hopeless and joyless.
We Can Do Hard Things
Are You Being Gaslighted? with Dr. Robin Stern (Best Of)
It's the undermining of reality. It's the undermining of the ground you stand on. So what happens in couples is that it happens a little bit. Think about your own experience. When did he say to you, you shouldn't be cursing? I'll help you with that. It happens like that where somebody says something and you think either that's crazy or maybe, okay, maybe that's a good idea. It's going to help me.
We Can Do Hard Things
Are You Being Gaslighted? with Dr. Robin Stern (Best Of)
Or I need this from you. If you loved me, you would. So does that resonate with you?
We Can Do Hard Things
Are You Being Gaslighted? with Dr. Robin Stern (Best Of)
Yeah. Well, that's it. We are trained as women to be agreeable. We are trained to stand in someone else's shoes. We are trained to see whether or not we can accommodate And we have an urge to be like joined with that person so that we're seeing the world in the same way. And the other thing that I think is so powerful is when someone is that certain and keeps insisting, of course you're flirting.
We Can Do Hard Things
Are You Being Gaslighted? with Dr. Robin Stern (Best Of)
Don't you see how people are responding to you? Look at your facial expressions. Like, are you completely unaware of them? Come on. Even if you begin to have that opening of maybe he's right. Yeah.
We Can Do Hard Things
Are You Being Gaslighted? with Dr. Robin Stern (Best Of)
So I thought a lot about that in the run up to coming on the show today also. And I thought, well, was I ever gaslighted as a child? And I think not so much one-on-one. I don't think either of my parents were gaslighters. They were critical, but they were loving. And yet we had this kind of drama going on in the house where my father, who was either very, very happy or very, very angry.
We Can Do Hard Things
Are You Being Gaslighted? with Dr. Robin Stern (Best Of)
And so it was like, okay and normal for him to be very, very angry. And everybody would feel okay and normal about like hiding in their bedrooms.
We Can Do Hard Things
Are You Being Gaslighted? with Dr. Robin Stern (Best Of)
And so it's a little bit like the gaslighting that goes on in society, which is then makes for fertile ground for individual relationship gaslighting, where you just accept because it is the air you breathe, this thing that seems completely normal, that makes you feel scared and terrified some of the time. It's not normal. It's not okay. So that's a little background.
We Can Do Hard Things
Are You Being Gaslighted? with Dr. Robin Stern (Best Of)
that I'm actually going to check out with my brother when I get off this podcast. But when I was married to my ex-husband and he grew up as a pianist, he had no rules. There were no boundaries. He played the piano till whenever he wanted and there was no one ever told him to stop. He never had to be anywhere on time because after all, he was an artist.
We Can Do Hard Things
Are You Being Gaslighted? with Dr. Robin Stern (Best Of)
So I like to make dinner and I would like to make dinner at a certain time. And we had kids and we have two I have two wonderful children. And he would be late, but not just five minutes late, 20 minutes late, a half hour late. And sometimes he'd call after 40 minutes and say, I'm on my way home. And so he would come in and I would say, next time, can you please call me?
We Can Do Hard Things
Are You Being Gaslighted? with Dr. Robin Stern (Best Of)
And it would go on like that. I wish you would let me know. I feel disrespected. Can we talk about your being late? And he would say, you have a problem.
We Can Do Hard Things
Are You Being Gaslighted? with Dr. Robin Stern (Best Of)
And he would say that my problem was that I learned things that were false about being late, that I learned to associate it with disrespect, that I learned to associate it with not being kind or good to the other person, but really it was just a question of whatever he made up at the time. And I thought to myself, that's ridiculous. But over time...