Dr. Ori Stollar
Appearances
Training Without Conflict Podcast
Episode Fifty-Nine: Dr. Orion
Right. So I would say, again, people like Susan Garrett, that that you also had online on the podcast, and not everything, but there is, I forgot her last name, I think her first name is Emily. And her YouTube channel is a kick up up.
Training Without Conflict Podcast
Episode Fifty-Nine: Dr. Orion
But But yeah, if you kick up by itself, Some things that Zach George does, not everything. And even...
Training Without Conflict Podcast
Episode Fifty-Nine: Dr. Orion
uh stillwell i think her name is yeah the british okay yeah victoria stillwell okay so yes mainly the you know what's considered the reward-based trainers yeah i still work with with trainers that are not reward-based you do but i i do yes i don't send anyone away you know again they even they come to me i tell look with this dog in some cases
Training Without Conflict Podcast
Episode Fifty-Nine: Dr. Orion
Yeah, so first, allow me to thank you for having me on, you know, it's probably going to be a different audience that I usually talk to. And but you know, it's good. It's I think it's good for the exposure that everyone learns on. I don't even want to call it the other side, right? I mean, we all we're all actually all in the same field. So we try to understand each other.
Training Without Conflict Podcast
Episode Fifty-Nine: Dr. Orion
We can we can like, you know have a debate if it works For for every dog, but the dogs that I usually see in most cases their aggression if we're talking about aggression and that's actually the most common thing that I see is due to fear aggression and in those cases for example using something aversive something that scares the dog or hurts dog even more is
Training Without Conflict Podcast
Episode Fifty-Nine: Dr. Orion
has a very high chance of making things even worse so in those situations of course i will tell them look i think that in this case we shouldn't be using this technique and so you know i don't publicly yes i am trying to kind of push people more into the reward-based training
Training Without Conflict Podcast
Episode Fifty-Nine: Dr. Orion
Because then, you know, kind of like what you mentioned before there and the apps of the American Veterinary Society for Animal Behaviorist and of course, our college. And by the way, I'm not representing them. I'm not there. I mean, in a way, I am representing them, but not officially. Right. Correct. But I am actually a member of the app. So nobody is paying me. I actually pay them. Yes.
Training Without Conflict Podcast
Episode Fifty-Nine: Dr. Orion
To be a member. Same goes for the American College of Veterinary Behaviors. And we try to rely on the most current, but actually also very old, scientific data. And right now, most of it, or at least the better studies do show that the reward based training seems to be more effective in more cases. Again, later we can discuss other studies as well.
Training Without Conflict Podcast
Episode Fifty-Nine: Dr. Orion
But yes, so as you mentioned, I am a veterinary behavior specialist. We can talk a little bit later on what it actually means and what you need to do to become a behavior specialist. But I think like many other people in the field of behavior, either training or the veterinary side of things, It usually starts with one of your own pets, right?
Training Without Conflict Podcast
Episode Fifty-Nine: Dr. Orion
I mean, I'm not sure. I never did a survey, right? So I can't say that for sure. I mean, I can tell you that, again, most of the... behavior specialists that I know will not send away someone just because he's working with a trainer that works in a specific way. They might try to educate because again, even me, I'm saying that
Training Without Conflict Podcast
Episode Fifty-Nine: Dr. Orion
my preference is the reward-based training, is the force-free training, positive reinforcement, whatever you want to call it. Yeah, that's my preference as well. But we try to educate. We try to see what works best and how we can actually be on the same page. I do admit that if I get a dog, again, let's say an example of an aggressive dog,
Training Without Conflict Podcast
Episode Fifty-Nine: Dr. Orion
and he's fearful and that's the cause for the aggression and the owners are very adamant about shocking him every time he growls for example it concerns me because you know let's let's say kind of for a second i'm going to jump to something that we're going to discuss a bit later but let's say the dog we also thought that the dog needs some sort of
Training Without Conflict Podcast
Episode Fifty-Nine: Dr. Orion
medication, some sort of behavioral medication, psychoactive medication, I want the owners to think that that's the treatment that it's like a magic drug that's going to fix everything. And because the behavior modification part, the environmental management is in most cases, so much more important than using those psycho psychoactive medications. And if
Training Without Conflict Podcast
Episode Fifty-Nine: Dr. Orion
I have someone that does something that I really like, training wise that doing something that I really think is gonna basically prevent us from reaching correct. It was probably not a resolution and improvement of the problematic behavior. then not because I'm mad at them or anything like that, just because I think you're not the end result. Correct. Exactly.
Training Without Conflict Podcast
Episode Fifty-Nine: Dr. Orion
And it's going to be the way a waste of their time, a waste of their money. And then they're going to end up maybe even upset about me and might start saying, you see, we told you that that medication is BS medications don't work. Yeah, they don't. Again, it's not like a magic thing, right? It's not like a one and done. So
Training Without Conflict Podcast
Episode Fifty-Nine: Dr. Orion
Yeah, even if it's the best, and it's the right medication, if we don't do the rest of the stuff correctly, not we're not going to get results. And that's very important to know about using medications.
Training Without Conflict Podcast
Episode Fifty-Nine: Dr. Orion
So I had a dog that actually, because of medical issues, also basically led me into veterinary to begin with. And, you know, it was like one thing led to another. Because of her behavior issues, I started... learning a lot about behavior. I started with kind of what everyone does, YouTube, TV, a lot of Cesar Millan and all of that.
Training Without Conflict Podcast
Episode Fifty-Nine: Dr. Orion
I mean, you did write there at the end that you would like to discuss it with someone who knows. Hopefully I am that someone. That's why also we're doing this.
Training Without Conflict Podcast
Episode Fifty-Nine: Dr. Orion
Let's start there. It's a good question. I hope, because I'm trying to just pull out the studies from my head. Technically, we don't have tons of studies in animals. Usually, a lot of what we... deal with is kind of like used from the human side of things. But you mentioned Dr. Ilana Reisner, which is also a behavior specialist.
Training Without Conflict Podcast
Episode Fifty-Nine: Dr. Orion
And as far as I remember, it was her study that actually checked the levels of different in your transmitters or different, let's say, products of neurotransmitters in the blood, not in the brain. In the brain, you know, there's no real way to measure what's going on right now in the brain without basically killing the animal.
Training Without Conflict Podcast
Episode Fifty-Nine: Dr. Orion
I mean, you can measure electrical activity, but we can't measure proteins to that level yet. It's something that I think... in the future is going to be something that we'll be able to do but right now usually we cannot measure the blood and saying that there might be some but we have to agree that measuring serotonin in blood level uh level serotonin in blood it's
Training Without Conflict Podcast
Episode Fifty-Nine: Dr. Orion
I can't tell if it's good or not good, but sadly, that's basically what we have. We have different things like that, BDNF.
Training Without Conflict Podcast
Episode Fifty-Nine: Dr. Orion
That's kind of like, you know, we go with correlation many times.
Training Without Conflict Podcast
Episode Fifty-Nine: Dr. Orion
Not with an actual number, but that's also true for, sorry, for any measurement in the blood, right? Because for one animal...
Training Without Conflict Podcast
Episode Fifty-Nine: Dr. Orion
T4 might be between this and this the thyroid level for an animal other the other one it's going to be Different so we also go with correlations for example here between the blood and the brain and we see okay in dogs or in people that are Anxious or depressed we see that when we measure those certain levels in their blood they're lower then if we compare them to another group that is
Training Without Conflict Podcast
Episode Fifty-Nine: Dr. Orion
doesn't complain about aggression or about depression or about that. So again, there is correlation, not necessarily, we can't say for sure, but that's how we go. And of course, we also do clinical studies to try and see if using the medication that is supposed to increase serotonin or other neurotransmitters to see if it's actually changing the behavior.
Training Without Conflict Podcast
Episode Fifty-Nine: Dr. Orion
But the older that I got, I also learned that there's an actually field in veterinary medicine, kind of like in human medicine, right? We have psychiatry in human medicine, so we have the veterinary behavior field. in veterinary medicine. And because of all the behavior problems that my dog had, I got into the field after many years. And yeah, that's where I am nowadays.
Training Without Conflict Podcast
Episode Fifty-Nine: Dr. Orion
No, not necessarily. Again, it's also the same in human medicine when it comes to behavior issues, right? If we see specific problems that are known to be associated with what we think is the lack of a specific neurotransmitter or an access of another neurotransmitter or brain activity or something like that, then we choose the medications accordingly.
Training Without Conflict Podcast
Episode Fifty-Nine: Dr. Orion
again, the same in people, if you even if you go and look in the human scientific literature, basically, it's the same, they don't have studies that can actually measure those things. So you want to say that, basically, we're guessing? Yeah, yes, in a way, yes, I admit that, in a way we're guessing, but it's Let's say, in a way, educated guesses.
Training Without Conflict Podcast
Episode Fifty-Nine: Dr. Orion
And again, seeing the response, even in surveys, seeing the response to specific treatments does give us some proof. And you can say the same thing about not even just medications, right? I mean, how do you decide if using the shock collar is effective or not?
Training Without Conflict Podcast
Episode Fifty-Nine: Dr. Orion
Now, as far as far as I know, no, no, here is something in the brain itself. Again, not nothing. And we say that we trust the correlation between what's going on in the blood or even decided that you were involved with that head. measurements of cortisol in it.
Training Without Conflict Podcast
Episode Fifty-Nine: Dr. Orion
And by the way, the study that I did for my residency also tried to use cortisol as, you know, a measure of stress and behavior and stuff like that. We do with what we can without actually harming the dog. Right. So, yes, it's a complicated thing.
Training Without Conflict Podcast
Episode Fifty-Nine: Dr. Orion
and even so you know there are actually sorry sorry that i'm kind of sure and i mean but there are actually studies behavioral studies that done on awake dogs with functional mri so you can actually train dogs uh the one that comes in mind they did a lot in budapest uh the what was the name of the center now i'm so bad with names but yeah there's like two centers yeah yeah for sure
Training Without Conflict Podcast
Episode Fifty-Nine: Dr. Orion
Yeah, I think I know what you mean. For example, I saw one that I remember that I think they checked a dog's ability to sense heat, if I remember correctly.
Training Without Conflict Podcast
Episode Fifty-Nine: Dr. Orion
There are a bunch of them coming out. It's definitely not as easy as anything in people. We still don't have, as far as I know, the ability to measure the actual proteins, the actual serotonin or norepinephrine or things like that, the amount of that in the brain. You know, again, me personally, I don't think that that's the most important thing.
Training Without Conflict Podcast
Episode Fifty-Nine: Dr. Orion
I actually think that studies that show that there is or isn't a response or improvement with the medication, in case we do choose to use it, are more important than quantifying things.
Training Without Conflict Podcast
Episode Fifty-Nine: Dr. Orion
Again, it's a let's start, you know, let's let's start with this.
Training Without Conflict Podcast
Episode Fifty-Nine: Dr. Orion
It is. And by the way, I completely agree with it again. And it's and you know what, that's actually something that that's important to know. But, you know, it's hard for me to actually respond to that specific paper because because I never read it. But Let me let me actually ask you like a quick question first, because we you just mentioned that we can't actually measure serotonin.
Training Without Conflict Podcast
Episode Fifty-Nine: Dr. Orion
Did they do something to measure it? I mean, how do they know that they actually reduce the amount of serotonin in the brain?
Training Without Conflict Podcast
Episode Fifty-Nine: Dr. Orion
Because, you know, if they also measured, you know, some of the metabolites or something like that in the blood, then you can argue the same way that you argue about what I mentioned.
Training Without Conflict Podcast
Episode Fifty-Nine: Dr. Orion
spend let's let's not waste table this one and definitely get really interested to learn about again human medicine the brain is the brain it's similar between dogs and people and cats and other animals now but what I would like to say and that's that's really important
Training Without Conflict Podcast
Episode Fifty-Nine: Dr. Orion
because it's very important for example to know that the name ssris so for people that don't know it's selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors so it sounds like oh yeah it's selective right it's selective for serotonin but in reality it's not that selective we actually have an effect on more than one
Training Without Conflict Podcast
Episode Fifty-Nine: Dr. Orion
and neurotransmitter when we're using those selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors so and by the way there are differences between the different medications so prozac is just one example there are other medications some of them are more selective to serotonin but less selective to noradrenaline and or epinephrine and while others might be more
Training Without Conflict Podcast
Episode Fifty-Nine: Dr. Orion
less selective for serotonin, but more selective to something else. So even and that's another reason that probably those different medications work differently on patients, because it's usually not just one thing that's missing, it's usually or one thing that's not working normally. So for example, maybe if we reduce the serotonin,
Training Without Conflict Podcast
Episode Fifty-Nine: Dr. Orion
but other things are not affected maybe it might still be able to kind of like function normally and it's kind of like a specific balance that might be between the different things that are going on in the brain again i can't say too much about that specific study but i will say that the brain is such a complicated machine that i don't think that even if we could measure the the levels of
Training Without Conflict Podcast
Episode Fifty-Nine: Dr. Orion
you know, the different neurotransmitters in the brain, I'm not sure that even then we would be able to know if and when specific medications might work better than others.
Training Without Conflict Podcast
Episode Fifty-Nine: Dr. Orion
If you ask, I'm sure the psychiatrist that you're gonna speak to tomorrow, we'll be able to even pull out some some of those studies. There are studies again, they're done postmortem, right? They're not done on real life people, because you can't measure those, you can measure things in the brain, those type of things in the brain.
Training Without Conflict Podcast
Episode Fifty-Nine: Dr. Orion
But, you know, they did test all kinds of brains from serial killers and, you know, people with chronic depression that committed suicide and stuff like that. So we do know some of these things. Does it accurately represent what's going on in the life person? Not necessary, right? We think it does. We do believe it does. Otherwise, we wouldn't be using those medications.
Training Without Conflict Podcast
Episode Fifty-Nine: Dr. Orion
But again, I would say that, to me, and I think and although it is very important how the biological process actually works and and you know to know why we're using the medications that we're using there is to me a big important kind of look like i said before is it actually achieving anything and of course the side effects if i believe that the side effects have
Training Without Conflict Podcast
Episode Fifty-Nine: Dr. Orion
more, you know, are going to affect the patient more than they're gonna actually help him, there's no way in hell that I'm going to use it. If I think that the benefits are higher than
Training Without Conflict Podcast
Episode Fifty-Nine: Dr. Orion
I actually agree with you about that being overly used in dogs and cats as well.
Training Without Conflict Podcast
Episode Fifty-Nine: Dr. Orion
Yeah, you said that they're basically numb.
Training Without Conflict Podcast
Episode Fifty-Nine: Dr. Orion
So as far as I know, and I can, you know, I can definitely speak for myself and speak for colleagues that I'm much more familiar with. I don't know every single Veterinary Behaviorist out there or more specifically Behavior Specialist, Veterinary Behavior Specialist, and maybe we should make this distinction between the terminology. Yes, please. Because I do think it's important.
Training Without Conflict Podcast
Episode Fifty-Nine: Dr. Orion
Right. And so first, by the way, just the you might know about this book, but you know, if anyone is interested, and again, I'm not getting any money from anyone, I'm just doing it for the sake of if people want to learn a bit more, but I would say this is kind of like our Bible, the veterinary psychopharmacology. Of course, we also use other books. We use Stahl a lot.
Training Without Conflict Podcast
Episode Fifty-Nine: Dr. Orion
You do? Yeah. Of course I do. No, no.
Training Without Conflict Podcast
Episode Fifty-Nine: Dr. Orion
But But again, I am the way that we decide if the medication is working or not, in not actually causing side effects, or basically just numbing or flattening the dog out. So, of course, you know, we know it according to what the owner and the owners are reporting. He, for example, I tell the owners and you know, there are some side effects that might actually happen in the first
Training Without Conflict Podcast
Episode Fifty-Nine: Dr. Orion
if we're talking specifically about, let's say, SSRIs. Some side effects might be much more common in the first two weeks because of how the medication itself works and the changes that actually take time and the changes in receptors and all of that in the brain. Because, by the way, and that's also important because the way that I explained it is not... is not entirely correct.
Training Without Conflict Podcast
Episode Fifty-Nine: Dr. Orion
SSRIs don't just increase the serotonin in the brain, because then you don't need SSRIs. You need to take serotonin, and maybe that will kind of go into your brain. They actually change the receptors in the brain. And they change specific receptors in the brain, which will have the behavioral effect. And, and let me Can I stop you?
Training Without Conflict Podcast
Episode Fifty-Nine: Dr. Orion
four to eight weeks. That's actually very, very interesting. And again, if you really want to go into the mechanism of it, I mean, maybe layman because we have a different audience like I would love to hear if someone wants to dig a little bit deeper, I would go with the book by stall the psycho pharmacology book. That's a human psycho pharmacology book by style.
Training Without Conflict Podcast
Episode Fifty-Nine: Dr. Orion
Basically, it's because we're not just... I mean, yes, we're increasing the serotonin at the beginning, but the actual effect is by affecting different 5-HT and serotonin receptors. And some of them are inhibitory receptors, and some of them need to be basically produced. So at the beginning, we actually have very high levels of serotonin, which might...
Training Without Conflict Podcast
Episode Fifty-Nine: Dr. Orion
attached to the inhibitory receptors, which is more associated with, and again, I'm trying not to overcomplicate things because it's complicated, but basically because they attach to specific receptors in the synapses, they cause those side effects. And by the way, there are serotonin receptors in other parts in the body, not just the brain.
Training Without Conflict Podcast
Episode Fifty-Nine: Dr. Orion
A veterinary behaviorist is kind of like a more, or a behaviorist in general, right? It's a more general definition. I know that some will use that terminology for people with a PhD and not necessarily veterinarians, even if their PhD was about veterinary or animal behavior, but they're not veterinarians.
Training Without Conflict Podcast
Episode Fifty-Nine: Dr. Orion
So again, they might have other side effects because of that effect. And the changes in the amount of receptors and the sensitivity of those receptors, that changes take longer. So that's why at the beginning when we actually have very high serotonin because of the medication and all of that, we see side effects that are more common in the first two weeks.
Training Without Conflict Podcast
Episode Fifty-Nine: Dr. Orion
then usually we'll see that the side effects are improving, but not necessarily see the actual clinical effect. The clinical effect itself takes between four to eight weeks, like you mentioned. And that's again, that's because of the actual changes in the proteins that are produced and create those receptors in the synapses and that takes a few weeks, and only then we'll see.
Training Without Conflict Podcast
Episode Fifty-Nine: Dr. Orion
But going back to your original question about how we actually know if it's working or not, then a side of how we if it's working or not, but when we say when we say that, the question is, how do we measure that happiness increased?
Training Without Conflict Podcast
Episode Fifty-Nine: Dr. Orion
No, no, no, definitely not. Definitely not. So it really depends on the situation. If we're dealing with a dog, that's, you know, kind of like how you would imagine a person with ADHD. I'm not talking about like playful behavior. I'm talking about the dog that just can't relax. And you know, some some will also say that we don't need to treat ADHD as much.
Training Without Conflict Podcast
Episode Fifty-Nine: Dr. Orion
And it's also there's a rise in how many people are being treated for it. But let's say that if we have a dog that, you know, is, and it is sometimes anxiety can go both ways, it can cause a dog to be hyper all the time, for sure, all over the place. And it can cause the dog to look like, you know, we would use the word depressed, even though we don't really know if it's actually depression. But
Training Without Conflict Podcast
Episode Fifty-Nine: Dr. Orion
it might go to both ways. So yes, sometimes it's a lot easier if you have a depressed dog or those anxious dogs that, you know, are kind of like in a shell and all of a sudden they're coming out of their shell. It's a lot easier to say, oh, yes, it's working. harder sometimes to say, when you have a dog that's all over the place, but also aggressive.
Training Without Conflict Podcast
Episode Fifty-Nine: Dr. Orion
And now he has some reduction in his activity level. And I'm saying some reduction. Yeah, right. When I'm talking to my patients, and I put them on, I recommend having them on a medication like that, or anybody medication, and that might have side effects, I tell them, look, the dog is not supposed to be a zombie. some reduction in energy, that's normal.
Training Without Conflict Podcast
Episode Fifty-Nine: Dr. Orion
I mean, also depends on the dog, the dog's personality, of course, but dogs breed and age. I mean, I wouldn't expect a 10 year old um i don't know a labrador let's let's go with labradors and i wouldn't expect a 10 year old labrador to be as active as a one-year-old labrador right so it's it's different for different uh patients and if you ever had older dogs or even mid-aged dogs you know that
Training Without Conflict Podcast
Episode Fifty-Nine: Dr. Orion
Most of them don't spend the entire day running around and playing and just wanting to be petted all the time or play all the time. Many of them just want to relax. They just want to chill.
Training Without Conflict Podcast
Episode Fifty-Nine: Dr. Orion
I think many years ago, the late Dr. Sophia Yin said that a behaviorist is either a diplomat of something like the American College of Veterinary Behavior, so a specialist. There's also a European and an Australian college. There are different colleges around the world. or is someone that is kind of like a PhD in the field.
Training Without Conflict Podcast
Episode Fifty-Nine: Dr. Orion
um they're questions right they're they're questions it's it's a valid question and and there's a good chance that you know for some of these things unless we'll find a way to you know read the dog's thoughts or something like that we're not gonna know right so again we go according to changes in behavior now it is true all the things that you mentioned there are known side effects in people as well
Training Without Conflict Podcast
Episode Fifty-Nine: Dr. Orion
But there are other studies in people that show that their life are actually improving with the use of these medications. So, you know, yes, they're bad studies or even great studies, but with you know, bad results. I mean, I'm doing like the patient. Yeah, because because, you know, it kind of like doesn't fit the maybe the narrative that psychiatrists will want to say that, yeah, they're safe.
Training Without Conflict Podcast
Episode Fifty-Nine: Dr. Orion
No, we are aware that there are dangers and there are issues. Do dogs can also have, you know, the same things like you're mentioning, like basically deprive them from their joy in life and kind of they're not feeling those things.
Training Without Conflict Podcast
Episode Fifty-Nine: Dr. Orion
there's a good chance that in some dogs yes because again we believe that the brain of people especially with let's say the or the basic emotions does work the same as in in dogs knowing if it's actually exactly the same that's hard to say that's why for example
Training Without Conflict Podcast
Episode Fifty-Nine: Dr. Orion
you know let's say a good example would be autism right so in people there's like the spectrum there are all kinds of different tests that you can do and even genes that are associated with it and in dogs we almost don't have any studies about the topic and not because we don't think that dogs might be autistic i think that most of us believe that there are dogs
Training Without Conflict Podcast
Episode Fifty-Nine: Dr. Orion
that have behavioral issues because they're on the autistic spectrum or the equivalence of that in dogs. But right now we don't have ways to know it. And, you know, again, I wish we had things like measuring something in the blood or like some sort of a scan that will give us the answer, but we don't. So kind of like going back to... Sorry, go ahead.
Training Without Conflict Podcast
Episode Fifty-Nine: Dr. Orion
But everyone technically, as far as I know, legally can say that they're a behaviorist. Even a dog trainer can say that he is a behaviorist.
Training Without Conflict Podcast
Episode Fifty-Nine: Dr. Orion
i'm saying that kind of going back to what we said or what i said at the beginning that in the end we we're both trying i mean both groups right dog trainers and veteran bears are trying to improve not just the dog's life, of course, the dog's life and the owner's life. And if there's any danger to the dog or people around the dog and all of that, of course, we also try to address that.
Training Without Conflict Podcast
Episode Fifty-Nine: Dr. Orion
So in a way, we will take, and I'm using the word risk, even though in most cases, I don't think it's such a big risk, but we will take that risk of affecting dogs in knowing negative ways. And again, the same thing can be said about training methods in some dogs, a specific training method might cause an actual risk, right?
Training Without Conflict Podcast
Episode Fifty-Nine: Dr. Orion
I mean, the dog might end up becoming even more aggressive or more fearful because of what we did. So No question. The same as using medication. So that's why we try to do studies. And like you said, sadly, we don't have enough. We don't have enough mainly because of funding, just so you know.
Training Without Conflict Podcast
Episode Fifty-Nine: Dr. Orion
For example, the study that I did, I did a study on trying to see... No, no, I have to disagree with you here.
Training Without Conflict Podcast
Episode Fifty-Nine: Dr. Orion
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, you know, because, you know, we all do behavior.
Training Without Conflict Podcast
Episode Fifty-Nine: Dr. Orion
Okay, so let me rephrase. Funding from a source that doesn't cause bias to the results. Because that's very important, right? In veterinary medicine, and specifically we're talking about veterinary medicine, not the human, the big pharma are not going to pay anything. My study was partially supported by by the university where I did my residency.
Training Without Conflict Podcast
Episode Fifty-Nine: Dr. Orion
And I also got like, I think $2,000 if I remember correctly from a fear free pets. So you might say yes, there's some bias there. I can tell you that they didn't have any say about how I'm doing the study on or in they didn't see anything before it was published. But, um,
Training Without Conflict Podcast
Episode Fifty-Nine: Dr. Orion
So we can say we're behaviorists. Yeah, no problem. Behavior specialists, or sorry, specifically veterinary behavior specialists, the only people that can use that term And it's a law, right? I mean, it's something that if someone is calling himself a veterinary behavior specialist and he's not, he's actually doing something against the law.
Training Without Conflict Podcast
Episode Fifty-Nine: Dr. Orion
you know my study was considered a good study in the way that it was done right because it was a double blind placebo control study so people that don't know they're like even different levels of studies the best one is considered a meta-analysis of double-blinded can see um placebo control so like they actually had a bunch of studies that were
Training Without Conflict Podcast
Episode Fifty-Nine: Dr. Orion
both the person the owner or technically the patient when we're not talking about dogs but the patient and or the owners don't know what drug the dog is getting and also the researcher is not is not aware of what drug the dog is getting. And then we have something that we're actually measuring. And only after we finish measuring everything, only then we unblind everything.
Training Without Conflict Podcast
Episode Fifty-Nine: Dr. Orion
Now everyone are getting, you know, let's say in my case, they got a capsule, either one with the medication or with cornstarch or something like that. And in that, and by the way, my study, It didn't really show a big difference between dogs that received gabapentin before the appointment that we kind of like did a sham veterinary visit.
Training Without Conflict Podcast
Episode Fifty-Nine: Dr. Orion
between that and the placebo, there was a little bit of difference in statistically significant, but between them, as far as like, for example, lip licking, which is considered a stress sign, if in favor of the gallop painting dog, so it did seem like health a little, but nothing crazy. I mean, nothing like, oh, my God, and might also be because of how I designed that study. But
Training Without Conflict Podcast
Episode Fifty-Nine: Dr. Orion
Definitely. I mean, it's not a problem, but in a way, I feel good that I published a study that technically didn't support what many other veterinarians think, because a lot of veterinarians say, okay, we have an anxious dog. Let's give him gabapentin. Now, in my study, it didn't seem like it worked that well. There's another study done by someone else that I think was also double-blinded.
Training Without Conflict Podcast
Episode Fifty-Nine: Dr. Orion
They used it for a thunderstorm, and in their case, it did seem like it did something. And, you know, I have veterinarians, including behaviorists, that swear that gabapentin works. I can only say that in my study, it didn't seem like it worked
Training Without Conflict Podcast
Episode Fifty-Nine: Dr. Orion
yeah as much again going on with my study that explained it but you know but that's considered a good study because it actually had that double blind control yeah yeah so there are other studies not a lot that only checked kind of like you know we gave the medication maybe not even blinded and then ask the owners what they think like was there a change or did you see anything
Training Without Conflict Podcast
Episode Fifty-Nine: Dr. Orion
Those are only people that did a residency, studied and treated dogs for usually a minimum of three years and a minimum of something like 400 dogs that they treated. And of course, submitted, published a paper, a scientific paper, and case reports and pass the very long and hard test and only they are allowed to call themselves veterinary behaviorist.
Training Without Conflict Podcast
Episode Fifty-Nine: Dr. Orion
Yeah, we sometimes that's all we have. So, yes, we do have science based medicine. No, not all of it is the highest level. But we definitely go with kind of like do no harm as far as using medications or trying to minimize the risk as much as possible.
Training Without Conflict Podcast
Episode Fifty-Nine: Dr. Orion
No, so first, not necessarily, it will reduce arousal. And depends again, depends on the case, the pain depends on the patient. It's not something correct.
Training Without Conflict Podcast
Episode Fifty-Nine: Dr. Orion
No, I agree with you completely because, again, as far as the treatment goes, as I mentioned, medication is just one part. And, you know, I think it is important to understand why we use the medication. It's not to fix the behavior. We try to get the threshold higher, meaning that it will give us a little more...
Training Without Conflict Podcast
Episode Fifty-Nine: Dr. Orion
wiggle room to actually work with the trainer on the behavior issue because let's say you have a dog that will explode because he's so afraid of the other dogs or like he's crazy hyper aroused because of anxiety and you know every little thing will trigger him even miles away so you know we can't do anything it doesn't matter if you're going to use shot colors and it doesn't matter if you're going to use
Training Without Conflict Podcast
Episode Fifty-Nine: Dr. Orion
only treats the dog, like the second that it happens, explosion, right? He goes from zero to 60. The goal of the medication in most of these cases is to give us a little bit more time to be able to actually work on the behavior and treat the behavior. Many times, once we did it for, you know, enough time and the dog now learned the new behavior,
Training Without Conflict Podcast
Episode Fifty-Nine: Dr. Orion
there's a good chance that we can win them off the medications and they don't need it. They're not going to need it anymore. So the fact that a dog is being put on some anti-anxiety medication doesn't necessarily mean that he's going to be on it for the rest of their lives.
Training Without Conflict Podcast
Episode Fifty-Nine: Dr. Orion
But if we do see that, you know, we started winning him off and again, despite the fact that on the medication he was still curious, he was still playful, He was, as far as all of us can tell, enjoying life and eating nicely and interacting with their owners and if it's a playful dog with other dogs and all of that. Everything else kind of seems like a normal dog.
Training Without Conflict Podcast
Episode Fifty-Nine: Dr. Orion
What's going on in the brain, again, we can't ask if they're happy or not. We can only say that their behavior is kind of looking normal.
Training Without Conflict Podcast
Episode Fifty-Nine: Dr. Orion
it's not in most cases it's not a problem to keep them on those medications for life as long as you know the veterinarian knows about it and he will do blood work once a year once every six months to make sure that nothing is changing and you know adjust things like what would it have to change in a blood work
Training Without Conflict Podcast
Episode Fifty-Nine: Dr. Orion
without when you're talking about something that out there's like my there are a bunch of things that can be affected by these medications again depending on what medication you're actually using but let's say some ssris might affect thyroid levels might not actually cause thyroid disease okay yeah yeah sure sure sure yeah for sure for sure but i'm talking about uh um
Training Without Conflict Podcast
Episode Fifty-Nine: Dr. Orion
Doesn't, I'm not saying that, you know, PhDs are worse than veterinary specialists, but it's important to know that the terminology is very different. Yeah, I mean, for sure.
Training Without Conflict Podcast
Episode Fifty-Nine: Dr. Orion
That's true, but it's true in all scientific fields, not just medication. So I don't think it has anything to do with pharma. I think it has more to do with, researchers not wanting to publish things out there, you know, when they get like bad results that don't fit their hypothesis.
Training Without Conflict Podcast
Episode Fifty-Nine: Dr. Orion
That's why, again, I'm actually pretty proud of the fact that I published something that maybe didn't fit the hypothesis.
Training Without Conflict Podcast
Episode Fifty-Nine: Dr. Orion
No. So you mean what the actual change or the fact that they don't try to see?
Training Without Conflict Podcast
Episode Fifty-Nine: Dr. Orion
Yeah, no, it is lacking. It is definitely lacking. But, you know, I can say the same thing about the study that you were a part of, right?
Training Without Conflict Podcast
Episode Fifty-Nine: Dr. Orion
No, we don't have a lot of time. So I think it's also important, right?
Training Without Conflict Podcast
Episode Fifty-Nine: Dr. Orion
Why is it addictive? If it's actually helping the person, what's the problem? You're saying that the person himself is saying, no, it's working. So we do try to look for the lowest possible dose.
Training Without Conflict Podcast
Episode Fifty-Nine: Dr. Orion
That it's so powerful that they feel like total shit.
Training Without Conflict Podcast
Episode Fifty-Nine: Dr. Orion
It's a problem. I actually don't think it's such a big problem because especially if it's not causing any medical issues and the person feels like it's helping them, then why not? Even a placebo effect is a good effect if it's actually working and not causing any issue. And again, I will take it to our field. First, we actually don't see crazy withdrawal signs as much as we can.
Training Without Conflict Podcast
Episode Fifty-Nine: Dr. Orion
I mean, we keep going back to the point of what if what if the dog is like this or thinking like that we don't have the way to tell it and that's the same thing i can say about any method of training and also you would have a dog not not necessarily you specifically but you will have a dog for example being trained with a with a shock collar
Training Without Conflict Podcast
Episode Fifty-Nine: Dr. Orion
You will have in many cases, not all cases, but in many cases, you will have to always have, even if you're not using it, but you will have to keep the actual shock collar on the dog. And in some cases, you will have to actually use it for those situations, you know, recall or chasing away after another animal or something like that.
Training Without Conflict Podcast
Episode Fifty-Nine: Dr. Orion
So you actually also didn't really fix the problem because the dog still wears the collar. So you can say the same thing about the medication.
Training Without Conflict Podcast
Episode Fifty-Nine: Dr. Orion
be happy if you let me just, again, nothing to do with the studies are all that just kind of like, sure, something that they do think that is important for people to know. A lot of people believe and you know, you might be one of them and say it's okay, everyone is entitled for their own opinion. But a lot of people believe
Training Without Conflict Podcast
Episode Fifty-Nine: Dr. Orion
that using those psychoactive medications using those anti-anxiety medications especially the long-lasting ones not those fast-acting ones but the long-lasting ones like the ssris like prozac or chlamypramine is from a different family but using those medications might lead to a dog that is not happy, that is not enjoying life, or that has side effects.
Training Without Conflict Podcast
Episode Fifty-Nine: Dr. Orion
I think that's probably the most demanding and the most, let's say, that there's actually a legal, in a way, a legal definition for it than anything else.
Training Without Conflict Podcast
Episode Fifty-Nine: Dr. Orion
Well, in fact, if you ask most of the veterinary behaviorists and their experience, and again, the studies that did ask owners what they saw, It's actually not the case. In most of these cases, the dogs are behaving normally and just not showing the problematic behavior to begin with. Do we need to throw those medications on every single patient that we see? Definitely not.
Training Without Conflict Podcast
Episode Fifty-Nine: Dr. Orion
And I can tell you that as a veterinary behaviorist, a lot of times I get clients that are coming and they're already on Prozac that their primary veterinarian gave them. Why? Because he read somewhere that Prozac can reduce anxiety or can make the dog less aggressive. And it's definitely against it.
Training Without Conflict Podcast
Episode Fifty-Nine: Dr. Orion
Yeah. And I'm definitely against it. Because again, just the medication is almost never the treatment.
Training Without Conflict Podcast
Episode Fifty-Nine: Dr. Orion
So then the interesting question would be how many of them got the medication from a behavior specialist? Yes. If that's not the case, then of course it's skewing the results. And I agree with you. I agree with you that it's overused and used in a wrong way.
Training Without Conflict Podcast
Episode Fifty-Nine: Dr. Orion
So I think that there, again, being a member and overall, kind of like agreeing with the general things that they try to, let's say, teach the veterinarians and the public and trainers, by the way, I think trainers can actually also, if I remember, maybe not trainers, but technicians, I'm not sure. But the debt organization is not in way
Training Without Conflict Podcast
Episode Fifty-Nine: Dr. Orion
the organization that is, you know, the most qualified to do those decisions or stuff like that. I mean, if you want to actually go with like, better, or you know, the best recommendation, I would still go with the American College of Veterinary Behaviors, because it has something, something behind it. I was a member of the app sub even before I was in my residency.
Training Without Conflict Podcast
Episode Fifty-Nine: Dr. Orion
Yes, because you do have, by the way, they do have good position statements, and they have reference there. And usually those position statements are actually written by specialists, but having said that, the fact that someone is a member of the AVSAB is not necessarily proved that they know what they're doing. That's why it's really important to know
Training Without Conflict Podcast
Episode Fifty-Nine: Dr. Orion
who is the person that's prescribing your medication? Yes. You know, the highest tier would still be, and I'm sorry, I might be offending some of my colleagues that are not diplomats, but, you know, when you have a dog with...
Training Without Conflict Podcast
Episode Fifty-Nine: Dr. Orion
Yeah, and there are studies about that as well. But some schools, sadly, even nowadays, that we know how important behavior is for everything, for the well-being. We know that dogs with behavior issues are... very likely to be surrendered to shelters and euthanized, right? Sadly, some schools still don't have any behavior lectures or courses, and it is getting better and better.
Training Without Conflict Podcast
Episode Fifty-Nine: Dr. Orion
epilepsy or with seizures would you prefer that a neurologist will see him or would you prefer that a general practitioner that's interesting interested in you know in in neurology will do all the treatments and stuff like that sometimes the general practitioner might be great definitely but the credentials of the neurologist are so much better because you know that they had to go through a very rigorous
Training Without Conflict Podcast
Episode Fifty-Nine: Dr. Orion
training to become what they are. And the same goes for behaviorists. I, as I said, I also get doctor already on those medications and I kind of disagree with it because sometimes because they only gave the dog the medication and didn't do anything else about it. Now the owners don't even trust the fact that the medication maybe in that case might actually work because they just used it wrongly.
Training Without Conflict Podcast
Episode Fifty-Nine: Dr. Orion
Those things are, are. crazy complicated in people and in dogs.
Training Without Conflict Podcast
Episode Fifty-Nine: Dr. Orion
We're talking about selection bias, because you know, those that got to you, there's a good chance that, you know, they tried the medication didn't work, they maybe tried reward based trainers didn't work. and then you got them and there's bias, right? Because they already did those things and maybe did them in a wrong way and that affected the, because if you look at my patients,
Training Without Conflict Podcast
Episode Fifty-Nine: Dr. Orion
Also, I have patients that came from either positive or any other kind of training methods. A lot of them, as I mentioned, came with already some medication from their veterinarian. And I would definitely expect that the number of cases that I'm seeing or let's say the complexity of the cases that I see are much higher than
Training Without Conflict Podcast
Episode Fifty-Nine: Dr. Orion
know the normal dog probably you will see the same right because again if it was something that an owner can just look on a youtube video and train by themselves very true they wouldn't need you or me so we are already biased to kind of decide and by the way that might actually also affect why you're seeing what you're seeing and i'm seeing what i'm seeing because
Training Without Conflict Podcast
Episode Fifty-Nine: Dr. Orion
But let's say that when I was event student many years ago, we only and I think that that's still kind of the norm. There's only one course, in most cases, like one semester, it teaches the basics and basics. Usually, you know, like learning theories, right does go like quick and dirty about the medications and stuff like that.
Training Without Conflict Podcast
Episode Fifty-Nine: Dr. Orion
it was already selected for us that those that came to me already did those things and that's why i can say oh yeah all of the all of my patients trainers couldn't help them and and you might see something that's completely different because you see patients that were already treated with medication and say all of my clients are dogs that medications didn't help them
Training Without Conflict Podcast
Episode Fifty-Nine: Dr. Orion
so in in those cases we need to be very very um caution on how we you know use our own experience right don't standardize for sure i absolutely yeah 100 agree with you uh you know though
Training Without Conflict Podcast
Episode Fifty-Nine: Dr. Orion
So someone did something wrong. Exactly my point.
Training Without Conflict Podcast
Episode Fifty-Nine: Dr. Orion
But we agree that he was on the medication for three years and didn't die because of the medication, which is also important to say.
Training Without Conflict Podcast
Episode Fifty-Nine: Dr. Orion
electric colors that doesn't need to be happening yeah and i'm not gonna i'm not gonna argue with that yeah and by the way i wanted to say that i actually appreciate the fact that here in your youtube videos and all that you actually call them electric colors and you draw don't try to sugarcoat it and call it It tickles. It only tickles. Yeah, and all kinds of like, you know, it is what it is.
Training Without Conflict Podcast
Episode Fifty-Nine: Dr. Orion
So, you know, that's actually something that did impress me. And one of the other reasons, like, I was happy to come today.
Training Without Conflict Podcast
Episode Fifty-Nine: Dr. Orion
And have the discussion because it did seem like you don't try to sugarcoat those things.
Training Without Conflict Podcast
Episode Fifty-Nine: Dr. Orion
But But yes, it is true that most veterinarians don't have a broad enough understanding of veterinary medicine.
Training Without Conflict Podcast
Episode Fifty-Nine: Dr. Orion
A lot of them are afraid just because of how complex it is. And actually, I'll go back to your original question about behavior specialists and dog trainers. most or all of the behavior specialists that I know, including me, usually work with a trainer.
Training Without Conflict Podcast
Episode Fifty-Nine: Dr. Orion
Usually it's either, for example, I think that most of my referrals actually come from dog trainers, not from other veterinarians, but actually from dog trainers. And even if they do come to me from another veterinarian, in Probably 90% of the cases, I will actually tell them that they should reach out to a dog trainer.
Training Without Conflict Podcast
Episode Fifty-Nine: Dr. Orion
And not because I don't think that I know how to train dogs and, you know, because I did learn it. But I just... you know, the time that needs to be spent with a trainer and the way that trainers actually work with the owner one on one and with, of course, the pet is very much different to the way that most of us specialist work, right?
Training Without Conflict Podcast
Episode Fifty-Nine: Dr. Orion
Because we mainly do a consultation, it's more like sitting with a psychiatrist in a room and talking, and then you know, seeing how the dog behaves and all that. It's late, and then we do give recommendations, right, but they're usually in some, depending on the case, of course, but many times they might be too broad, and you still want them to go to the trainer.
Training Without Conflict Podcast
Episode Fifty-Nine: Dr. Orion
So as far as I can tell, as far as I know, we work hand in hand with dog trainers, we're not trying to replace trainers.
Training Without Conflict Podcast
Episode Fifty-Nine: Dr. Orion
I mean, worst case, if people like it, we can always meet again.
Training Without Conflict Podcast
Episode Fifty-Nine: Dr. Orion
Yeah, no, I know. You know, I watched also like in preparation for our meeting today, I also watched a lot of your videos. And, you know, I did see the people that you had on the podcast before me, including, you know, people that...
Training Without Conflict Podcast
Episode Fifty-Nine: Dr. Orion
I wish I had the chance to speak to you know, like people like Dr. Mac, that you know that that everyone still quotes the alpha theory and alpha wolf and stuff like that. And also on your podcast is saying like, that's not exactly how you need to use it. But you know, great scientists and yeah, so so very good.