Dr. Michael Ormsbee
Appearances
Perform with Dr. Andy Galpin
Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
So we got hammered from reviewers. I remember, oh, I'm so proud of this. And then it came back. It's like, well, you didn't do this, this, this, this.
Perform with Dr. Andy Galpin
Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
And that was in sort of young men. Then we looked at this in different populations. So we started to go to different populations. We started to look at overweight women and then some women with obesity. And we repeated the study and had very similar outcomes. So casein and whey being quite favorable for metabolic rate in the morning.
Perform with Dr. Andy Galpin
Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
What the problem we had was we hadn't introduced exercise yet, so we didn't know what that was doing. And we have no idea what's happening from leaving my lab with a shake in your hand coming back to me the next morning.
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Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
So a series of more studies we designed, I know, 15 more after that along the way where we ended up putting mattresses in the lab and having people sleep there so that we could just monitor everything. We ended up thinking about exercise in a way that was useful. So one of those studies with women with obesity in the beginning, they had actually a rise in glucose and insulin from having the
Perform with Dr. Andy Galpin
Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
the shape before bed when we measured it the next mornings. And that's not a good thing. You don't want that to be. So we decided to introduce exercise minimally. I think it was two days a week we put in and we just did it for four weeks. But when we did even just a little bit of exercise with people who didn't usually do it, All of those negative things went away entirely.
Perform with Dr. Andy Galpin
Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
It just shows you how powerful exercise driving all of this stuff over the nutrition. I mean, any day that exercise base is going to be the main mover of the physiological needle. And the nutrition really just helps push it one way or the other.
Perform with Dr. Andy Galpin
Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
You're welcome. Welcome. I've not been able to come over here and do some podcasting and hang out on this side of the country for a while. So for me, it's a pleasure. I appreciate the offer.
Perform with Dr. Andy Galpin
Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
The other thing we didn't do well was that if you're sleeping at home or sleeping in the lab, how do I know how, if that's like your usual way of sleeping and does that influence fat metabolism? So I remember a reviewer said, did you measure sleep? I'm like, never even crossed my mind. And I'm doing sleep – I'm doing pre-sleep studies. So at that time, we just implemented like a survey.
Perform with Dr. Andy Galpin
Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
So you come in and we say, OK, how much did you sleep last night? Was it good or bad or usual? And then in that simple measure, we saw no differences whatsoever. And then we brought them into the laboratory and like, oh, well, surely that's not going to be great for sleep. It's a different environment and all these things.
Perform with Dr. Andy Galpin
Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
And we made it again, pen and paper, no difference in what we're finding in terms of just asking them that question. And so then we now I'll fast forward to kind of what we're getting to in a few minutes. But now we're purposefully designing for an outcome of sleep. where we've never done that before. We've always measured it for recovery.
Perform with Dr. Andy Galpin
Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
We've measured it for metabolism, not for the outcome of sleep as our primary aim. But we'll talk about that in a second. One of the things that I think really helps us now is that we introduced in some of our studies a technique called microdialysis.
Perform with Dr. Andy Galpin
Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
Now, that's something that I learned in grad school from a guy named Professor Bob Hickner, great friend, excellent researcher, my mentor, just a phenomenal human.
Perform with Dr. Andy Galpin
Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
Yeah, consistently just excellent work.
Perform with Dr. Andy Galpin
Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
I did. Yeah. That's a whole other story. But it's fantastic because I have like the godfather of microdialysis in our backyard. And it's great. And that's a technique I learned in my PhD program as well. So we started implementing this microdialysis.
Perform with Dr. Andy Galpin
Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
Yeah, it is. But yeah, I guess it's a little complicated. So imagine like getting your belly pierced. So when we originally started this, it was you pinch a roll of fat in your subcutaneous fat on your belly. And then you'd put a small needle through and then pull it out the other side and it's threaded with – A tiny probe, a flexible membrane that you can slide underneath the skin.
Perform with Dr. Andy Galpin
Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
So then the needle is out entirely. You just leave this little flexible tubing under the skin. Luckily now they make these as concentric probes. So it's only one poke instead of two. So you'd only have to pinch and put one poke in there. And then what happens is there's an inlet tube and an outlet tube, tiny little micro tubes. And then you can say – you can perfuse all kinds of stuff.
Perform with Dr. Andy Galpin
Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
But we perfuse saline and saline goes into the interstitial space and mixes around and then comes out the outlet tube. So what I measure should be saline plus whatever is coming out of the cells around the probe. And so we measure in that probe real time all kinds of stuff. But traditionally, glycerol is the primary marker we're looking at for fat metabolism, so specifically lipolysis.
Perform with Dr. Andy Galpin
Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
Appreciate it. I can't wait to get into some of this stuff because I love it. It's what I do day in and day out. And speaking to a bigger audience is a pleasure.
Perform with Dr. Andy Galpin
Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
Yeah, but slightly different. So the oxidation piece is a little bit different. We're looking specifically at lipolysis. We have no idea... if it's actually being burned, it's just being liberated from the cell. And so we'll pick that up in the probe and we have to measure that. So adipocytes lack the enzyme glycerol kinase and so glycerol can't go back into the adipocyte.
Perform with Dr. Andy Galpin
Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
And so it is a little more stable than measuring free fatty acids, for example, because they can a little more readily go in and out of the fat cell in certain conditions. So glycerol is the main marker of lipolysis.
Perform with Dr. Andy Galpin
Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
Right. So you've heard of a triglyceride. Everybody's probably heard of that. So the backbone of a triglyceride, tri being three, are three fatty acids attached to a glycerol. And so that's liberated through hormone-sensitive lipase as the adipocyte is stimulated to release fat. And that can be from all kinds of stuff, but exercise is typically what we use to drive that.
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Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
And then they'll all be liberated from the cell, and eventually glycerol will be also put into the intersocial space. And ultimately, we can pick that up in the microdialysis dialysate that we collect.
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Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
Yeah, and what's nice about this technique is that we're describing it in the abdominal fat tissue. Yeah, it's where people care. But we also can do it right now, like we're running a study where we're looking at the abdominal and we're also looking at the gluteal. And men and women have different amounts of fat in those areas.
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Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
And it all has to do with the receptor type that's on the adipocyte in that space. And so we have like these beta and these alpha receptors that primarily drive what's going on in these different spaces. So you and I will have a different concentration of the alpha and beta receptors on the adipocyte in our abdomens versus our hips and top of our buttocks, right?
Perform with Dr. Andy Galpin
Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
And so women will also have a different profile. And that also changes to like, for example, the perimenopause-menopause transition. A lot of those things are different.
Perform with Dr. Andy Galpin
Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
really interesting for people to know like what's going on in these different tissues can we fix it and then we can also put drugs through the probe if we need to and we can stimulate or inhibit those receptors and figure out mechanistically what's going on in the different tissues but for our pre-sleep feeding studies we weren't perfusing any drugs.
Perform with Dr. Andy Galpin
Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
It was just simply looking at what was going on with lipolysis. And then we would measure oxidation with the breast samples as well. So you have to do both. But it gives you a better picture of exactly what's happening. So we finally had this tool to measure glycerol, so lipolysis, overnight. And I remember my doctoral student at the time Amber Kinsey was my first doc student running this study.
Perform with Dr. Andy Galpin
Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
And I remember she came in and she's like, oh, my goodness, nothing happened. Like we didn't see any difference in lipolysis no matter if they took carbohydrate, protein, placebo, whatever we gave. And I thought we'd see something. And I remember going through the data and we're like, you know what this means? You can have something before bed and it does not change lipolysis.
Perform with Dr. Andy Galpin
Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
So you don't have to worry about the fat metabolism piece of this with a small, calorically small meal or protein shake and a protein dominant situation.
Perform with Dr. Andy Galpin
Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
Yeah, and I agree. It's really hard in doing research in this space because... Everybody wants to find the magic pill or potion or situation. And there are very few studies where we find some kind of amazing claim that comes out of it. Almost every time we're saying, no, that didn't work. That didn't work either. That didn't work either. And it's really... It's a fun process to be on.
Perform with Dr. Andy Galpin
Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
So, yeah, I played college ice hockey.
Perform with Dr. Andy Galpin
Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
The beautiful thing is that that's equally as important in our field for people to know that. There are some fields where sort of, quote, negative data would be a big problem. But that's not the case here because it's really important people know if something works or doesn't and depending on what outcome you're looking at. Let me go back to a little bit of the pre-sleep protein story. So
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Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
through my junior year at Skidmore College in upstate New York and then went to grad school in South Dakota and coached the Pee Wee Bee State Champs out there which was a great opportunity to coach so I was like my dip into that a little bit and then coming back to go to more graduate school I ended up being at ECU and they're like I saw an email come across and it said anyone ever play hockey before and I'm like well I used to play a lot of hockey so I remember emailing the coach and just saying hey we're we're
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Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
We were one of two labs doing this work from the early stages. So the other lab was Luke Van Loon's lab in Maastricht University. And their work is fantastic. Protein synthesis guy, big time. All protein synthesis.
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Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
What Luke's group was doing was looking at pre-sleep feeding all from a muscle protein synthesis perspective, where we're looking at it more from a fat oxidation, fat mobilization, applied outcomes perspective. And so it was really fun. Several times I've teamed up with Luke to give talks at different conferences and things where we cover all aspects of this pre-sleep feeding.
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Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
We probably do for a new one at some point. A lot of new data have come out. But for about 10 years, we were the only ones doing that work. Now it's like every week I find a new paper on the topic, which is really exciting. It's rapidly expanding our knowledge base.
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Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
They prefer the muscle protein synthesis ones for sure. But it's really good work. And what Luke found out was that for a while we didn't even know if you – could have muscle protein synthesis at that period of time. No one had ever done it. So he was giving young men and older men protein boluses, and then they were doing lines and biopsies through the night and in the next morning and things.
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Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
And one of those had like nasogastric feeding to get the protein in that way in these older individuals. So study after study after study showed, okay, yeah, you can feed at that point and have an increase in muscle protein synthesis. And their studies are awesome. And they did so much good work over the time. And so
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Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
Mixed with our data, it looks like we're in a place where it's either not going to do anything, pre-sleep feeding, or you could have an improvement in muscle protein synthesis and perhaps recovery in some of these other areas and maybe a change in metabolism that will be beneficial for some people. At the very least, you're creating an opportunity to meet your total daily protein goals.
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Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
And almost every paper in the last six years that we've written ends with that. It's probably most important as a feeding opportunity simply to hit your protein targets for the day. Secondarily, and it's probably a big secondarily, is it could specifically be useful at that time of day, but it's primarily driven by total protein intake for the day. Minor benefits may come from it.
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Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
The best example, that's from Luke's lab, Snyder's study. and they actually did 12 weeks of training with a pre-sleep feeding protocol, and they had carbohydrates and protein in a shake. And they did this for 12 weeks, and they actually had functional outcomes, so not just MPS where you're not sure if muscle will actually grow.
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Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
And they found improvements in cross-sectional area. They found improvements in strength, like 1RM, all things people would be interested in simply by having a pre-sleep shake. The interesting part was that study was criticized because there were different total amounts of protein taken between the groups. Right.
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Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
And so the group who had pre-sleep protein had 1.9 grams per kg, and the group who didn't take the pre-sleep protein had 1.3 grams per kg. So there was a difference. Now, both north of the recommended 0.8 grams per kg, and they were criticized for it, but they're – The way they thought about it was, no, no, it's just a feeding opportunity. Take it. You're at home. You have access to these foods.
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Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
You don't have to be afraid of it. And in their hands, it worked, increasing the total daily protein intake. You digested it. You absorbed it. And you actually laid on muscle with it.
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Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
Okay.
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Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
So clarify. Yeah. So RDA, the recommended allowance is 0.8 grams per kg to start to stave off issues that can come from lack of protein and And so that number, you know, it's pretty contested by people who work in this space, although it keeps coming up because it is a number that probably will stave off problems. We typically, I mean, there's so much data on here.
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Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
I'm sure you'll have speakers directly in this area, but it's just incredible. Like we usually recommend up to a gram per pound or 2.2 grams per kg. Most people don't hit it and they land right at 1.6, 1.7, which is right where I want them. And so that number works for us. We've had success with that in our various other protein feeding studies.
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Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
But there's a tangent I'd love to get on if we want to. So we've done a lot of protein feeding studies of people with obesity. One of the ones that I thought was very interesting, and I think your audience will like it too, that we were looking at morbidly obese individuals going for bariatric surgery.
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Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
I'm here. I'm in my PhD program, so I don't know how much I can contribute. Can I come out? And he's like, yep, you got to be on the team. So that was a lot of fun. They dropped me off to study all day, picked me up to play an 11 p.m. game. And that was a great season. That was the end of my eligibility. I ended up coaching two more years at ECU.
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Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
So when they show up at the bariatric center, instead of going in and getting the consult and getting the surgery scheduled, they find our team of researchers in the front door. You know how many people wanted to join us? Not many. Not many. But some said they'd try. And so we had a few subjects trickle in over time that would give us a try.
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Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
So the recommended calorie intake on a medically prescribed bariatric diet is extremely low.
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Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
Very, very low.
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Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
And it was primarily liquid, but there were some options. Now, this was a few years ago, so maybe it's different now. I haven't looked at it lately. And what we did is we took these individuals and we put them into two groups. We actually put in the IRB that we didn't think was ethically responsible to not give both groups more protein. So we did. And they approved that.
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Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
So both groups got added protein bowls, which bumped them up to almost 1,300 calories roughly. One of those groups got resistance training. One of them had standard of care, and the standard of care was some directions on a piece of paper, or you can come in here, move some tables around, do some calisthenics-type exercise.
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Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
If you did 12 weeks of resistance training, and this was run by Eddie Joe, who is a professor now, and his major professor was Dr. –
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Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
Yeah. And his mentor was Dr. Kim. And Dr. Kim is a phenomenal man who just recently passed away. And they designed this whole deal. And we were giving him more protein. And what was astonishing was that before the study began, if you did off grams per kg, which how much protein they took in, they were down like 0.3, 0.4 grams per kg because their body weight is just a lot larger. Yeah.
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Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
After the study, both groups over 12 weeks lost a ton of weight, as you would imagine, not eating much. But if you added resistance training, the amount of, according to DEXA, the amount of muscle or lean mass that you lost, or there's some issues with that.
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Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
It was 25% if you didn't train and was only 4% if you did resistance train.
Perform with Dr. Andy Galpin
Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
If you didn't lift, you lost a ton of muscle.
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Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
You're going to lose so many on that kind of a diet. And you just think about like weight recidivism and the people who are probably going to struggle with this. And now you're at a place with lower lean mass and you still have trouble with these things and you're still working on being taught the right things to eat.
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Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
So to me, that was a fabulous study that really showed the powerful impact that resistance training with protein can have.
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Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
But I finished and was like, there's this void with being competitive. And that came out for me in triathlon, of all things. And I kind of got into it because of my master's advisor. I showed up for an interview, basically, in South Dakota, and he put me on a bike. I'd never ridden a bike more than three miles.
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Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
Yeah, I think if you skip that part, of a weight maintenance or even a weight loss program, it's just not setting you up for the ideal outcomes long-term. But it is hard because you do, like if you're going out for a walk or a jog or a bike, like you sweat and then you feel like maybe you're doing more work. And so then you get in your mind about, maybe this is better for me for my goals.
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Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
And it's hard. I think you have to be disciplined in many ways, but to follow a program where you're training and maybe not as sweaty as you might be, from doing a run or even a walk outside or something. So yeah, I feel like in our environment now, we need to be probably medically prescribing resistance training at the root of all this. And that's just not happening yet in most places.
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Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
I know some folks are, but I think that's the next step that's going to have to be taken.
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Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
And we went for like a 20-mile, which doesn't sound all that long now, but it was excruciating. And I'm out here trying to ride a bike and keep up, and I thought... if he can leave work and go ride his bike, then I better learn how to ride a bike so that I can go do it with him or get out of here and go train a little bit. So that got me into cycling.
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Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
No, definitely not. Yeah. That when you're under a certain threshold.
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Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
Yeah. For protein requirements, you're going to be, you just have so many wins to catch by getting up to a number that's north of 1.1, 1.2. And honestly, that's really hard for some folks. So we have to be easy on ourselves if you fall in that category, like really work at trying to fit these foods into your daily practice. And I get it.
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Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
If you're busy, you got kids, you got jobs, you got things to going on like that takes some planning. And that's a little bit of a headache at first, but it's worth it. Like I'd say the juice is worth the squeeze because the outcomes are just really, really nice. I mean, we've done so many studies in my lab where
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Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
in collaboration a lot with Paul Arciero, who's done a ton of this kind of work, we've shown time and time again that the higher protein loads help a lot with all of these goals we're talking about, particularly weight management on that side of it. I mean, Stefan Pasiokas did a study years ago that was the RDA 0.8 or double at 1.6 or triple.
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Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
And so when they did that, what was really nice to see was that double was far better for the outcomes that they were looking at in that paper, but three times was not. And they landed on double, which is 1.6. And so that's kind of where we're landing with this. We've done work in our space where we did 40% of the diet as protein, and then we've done –
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Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
Some that we looked at 25 and 25 and 40 weren't all that much different from each other. Although I do think I've listened enough to like Don Lehman, these guys, I don't know that protein should be a percentage. It should probably always be a grams per kg and then just set that as your anchor for your meal planning and then work around it.
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Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
Yeah, yeah.
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Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
And then one thing led to another and I was training for short distance. And then my wife and I sort of got into some of the middle distance triathlon and ended up finishing my longest were like these 70.3 half Ironman events. And so that was it. I loved the training.
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Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
Right.
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Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
Yeah, that's probably where we are at the state of it. And I would say that's the first third of the story.
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Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
I think to summarize that first bit like you just did, I think everybody would agree that we should think of it as another opportunity for a protein feeding. In an athletic context, we've got to remember that sometimes pre-sleep feeding isn't just a luxury, it's a requirement.
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Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
And that's what's missed. And I see a lot of times, you know, I'll comment on these if I ever see them, but it's like, don't eat before bed. Even still, you're getting it because it compromises sleep. And we'll talk about that in a little while. Yeah. There's so much context and there's so many nuances that are needed to say that. So let's talk about Ultraman Florida.
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Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
I loved setting it up, figuring out what I needed to do to meet all the different goals and demands I had in terms of increasing VO2 max or being able to push thresholds or what kind of pacing that I want to pull. And then nutrition played a gigantic role in triathlon, which I was obviously into nutrition, and it's often considered the fourth aspect of triathlon.
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Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
If you finish a race at 9 at night, 10 at night, and you got a race at 5, 6 in the morning, you better eat at night. You're going to have no shot at competing tomorrow. So that's one. Also, we got to think about day after day after day, athletes have to train or practice. So why not take advantage when a lot of times we're under fueled and have other issues around not eating enough?
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Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
It's just another opportunity.
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Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
And then you have to do something afterwards, and then you're going to bed. So, yeah, so there's like that general context. I think the other piece of this that we started noticing over time, and we haven't even talked about it yet, were performance outcomes.
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Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
Yeah, so the one that gets the most traction – is studied by Abbott. And Abbott's group looked at professional soccer players. And they played an evening match.
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Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
Yeah. And then they had protein intake afterwards. And then they measured reactive strength index. So they were jumping off a 30 centimeter box and told to jump as fast as they could once they hit the
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Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
And the other one's real common too is a counter-movement jump.
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Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
So they did those two, and these are professional soccer players, English league, I believe, and they were – They were able to demonstrate over the course of the next three days of doing these tests after just the one dose feeding after the game that they actually either maintain or came back to normal faster post-game. And so for me, that was a recovery benefit.
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Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
So in our data until now, we never looked at recovery. We were looking at metabolic outcomes and other things like that. Several other studies have come out around this time that show a little bit of a benefit here, something around this same space, and then some said no benefit. And so I had one of my doc students, Pat Saraceno, look into this, and he started noticing in the literature a pattern.
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Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
I looked at it with him, and we were like, you know what's happening? Where it shows a benefit is when you exercise at night. Where it doesn't show a benefit is where you exercise in the morning. And those weren't the design of those studies. We just pulled the methods out and started looking at what time of day was this happening.
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Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
Yeah. Definitely drove that one home. And so we decided to design a study around it. And simultaneously, we were interested in protein type. So that's what we did. We took middle-aged men, go figure, and we wanted to see how they responded to pre-sleep feeding after some damaging exercise. You know, the classic studies where you do some eccentric exercises.
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Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
It's really fun. And we did. And so, yeah, they had, I think it was 150 eccentric-only reps of extension and flexion on their legs.
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Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
And so I got to really put – to practice the textbook recommendations that are given. Like what is a cleaner sport than being able, in terms of like following a textbook to a tee. So many other sports, you can't really do that. And clearly there are curve balls that can come in even with triathlon, but it's pretty specific. Like you know the distance, you know the length,
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Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
The pattern was, so we trialed it. Everybody was sore, but made it through. And then we had some people start the study and we ended up getting some people through. And then we had a couple of cases where people were like extremely sore. Yeah, yeah. And these were even very fit individuals for whatever reason. They had a couple of issues.
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Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
And so we actually ended up stopping that study short because of the extreme amount of pain that they were having. And we ended up finishing with only six people per group. And so the groups we had were like a whey protein, a casein protein, a rice and pea combo. So we wanted to look at a plant-based combo and a placebo.
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Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
And then we damaged them, and then we controlled their entire diet, the whole study. So it was like 72 hours after the damaging exercise.
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Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
You gave everything. Every single thing we gave them. Now, obviously, it's human, so you don't know what they're sneaking in or not.
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Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
We tried to control it. And of course— then you get comments like, oh, that was too controlled. It's not real life. But we tried to control all these things.
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Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
We're trying to answer it. So we damaged them so much that their markers just dropped off, right? As you would expect, like nobody could produce a contraction that was anything. And then it just never recovered. 72 hours later, we were nowhere near back. And in almost every other study we had looked at, you were at least close by 72 hours later. And we just never got there.
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Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
And so what we found, again, the type of protein didn't matter in that case. Everybody was too darn sore to actually get back to normal in this particular design. And so we just had to conclude again, like, it didn't – we had no difference in protein type. So that was getting at your protein type question was – plant-based didn't seem to matter versus whey.
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Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
Plant protein specifically is also very important. I love this question because we – I'll give you two stories here. The first one is the story of our cottage cheese study. Okay. So we were always wondering these whole foods things. And at the time, it was still thought that casein would be the best way to go because of its slow-digesting kinetics and everything that we see during the day.
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Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
Yes. And so Luke and I have conversations about that because we think it might be different when you're sleeping. Because you're laying supine and it's subtle changes in pH to your stomach and these different things that are occurring. And we just kind of had a hunch on it. And I'll give you the answer because I actually ran this study recently. But the cottage cheese study was great.
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Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
If you can get the temperature correct, you can pretty much eat according to textbook on these things. So I started making videos about it and trying to post those for my students and travel along with my first half Ironman experience. And those went over really well. And it was just an awesome experience to sort of feel what that was like.
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Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
Went to the supermarket, pulled off a tub of it. And then I sent one to a manufacturer to exactly replicate it in a powder form. The macro, all the profile. And so then I had a semi-solid cottage cheese and a liquid to compare it to and a placebo. Wow. And so that was a neat size. We get at like the consistency of the food and what is that doing with these outcomes?
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Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
And what we saw in that one was, again, no difference. The cottage cheese was not different from the profile when you made it into a shake. And so those two were not different from each other, all different from placebo. Well, not all. In some of the outcomes, they were better. And sleep, we did measure in this one. We put on some watches to measure sleep in this one.
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Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
Again, we saw no differences in sleep. And so real basic design, looking at if we have a semi-solid or a liquid, and there were no differences there. So it turned out casein maybe isn't the only one or the best one. And so... Luke Van Loon, Jorn Chomelin, and colleagues put together a nice study looking directly at casein versus whey. And they looked at mitochondrial MPS and myofibril MPS.
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Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
And there were no differences in pre-sleep feeding with taking either the whey or the casein.
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Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
And they're very good at it.
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Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
Yeah. And so that right there was it because some people don't like the consistency of cottage cheese. They don't like the consistency of a casein shake. They're different. Yep. And so mouthfeel makes a big difference. If you don't want to drink it, you won't do it. Yeah. If someone says, I love casein, I'm like, go for it.
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Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
Generally, it's saying the same thing from everything that I've been a part of or read.
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Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
Generally, it's the same. Unfortunately, one of my own studies contradicted the time of day thing. We did that with Andrew McKeown. This is science. In Australia, but we had some limitations to that study with time of day of exercise and performance. But in general, what you're saying is accurate. One of the interesting things about this is it keeps evolving.
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Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
And I love the idea of training and trying to get better each day and competing. It turns out I'm not very good at triathlon. Yeah.
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Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
There's still a couple of things we don't know. And we're trying to work on it. So one of the things we've done over this time is given one-off feeding. And we've usually had sleep as a secondary or tertiary aim, if at all. And so we finally designed one for sleep specifically. And the thing we've done this time is we're giving three nights in a row of the feeding instead of one night.
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Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
So that if you have an off or an on night, just by chance, we're not picking it up as artifact. That we can hopefully get a better number of nights involved with this. And it's a lot of work because there's nighttime things involved.
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Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
So we're doing that right now, and we're doing that in Division I female athletes, which is fantastic. So that's ongoing this whole academic year. So we should have some answers on that next year. We also put a CGM on them so we could continually monitor how glucose fluctuations are occurring through the day and through the night. over this period of time.
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Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
And then the last thing I'll say about that, which is really, I think the way that it's going, there's a new player in the protein world in pre-sleep feeding.
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Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
It's not. It's new to this space. So it's being marketed for sleep. It's called alpha-lactalbumin. It's, again, fractionated from dairy protein. Now, I was unfamiliar with it. And it's actually very common. It's in mother's milk. And so it's in infant formula powders. And it's high in tryptophan. And so linking those together, someone said high tryptophan, baby's sleeping, maybe adult's sleeping.
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Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
Let's fractionate it, bottle it on its own, and give that to people. And so there's already been two studies on it. And both of those were in Australian rugby. And both of those showed a benefit on sleep outcomes.
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Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
So we're running that study now with our Division I female athletes, and Alpha Lac will be one of ours to see if it's actually doing it or will it end like our other studies where there's no difference in things. But right now we're excited about it because there was evidence from two other studies, and we're just doing it a bit more controlled in our approach to it.
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Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
So Alpha Lac is kind of the new player there.
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Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
Yeah. You know what's funny? So I lost about 25 pounds training for that.
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Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
That's a really good point. We have to— You have to know how you react to things. The other thing is you could potentially be taking a large amount of fluid right before bed. If that makes you wake up and urinate too much, then it's probably also something you would want to have a different form or maybe try to have your protein intake at different times.
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Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
Right.
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Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
Yeah. And so, yeah, the sleep part of this is going to be sort of the next big story. And we're currently in negotiations to try to run another study because there's two things we're still missing. I want to know if there's a difference between the quality of the food you're taking or not. So could you have a mixed approach? macronutrient profile that's still relatively low in calories?
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Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
And how does that compare to something that's like ultra processed? And so that's one we're trying to run next is to look at specifically what is going on with the quality of the of the nutrient profile. And the other one is there is there a calorie threshold?
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Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
That's where I think we need to go because 544 in the first study seemed to not be good. And we're going to try to do like a 0, 400, 800. And then the idea would be to, if we can pull it off, would be to mask it and probably put it into something like a milkshake.
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Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
I lost so much, but I was like, I was like fueling. I was doing the creatine. I was doing everything to try to save what I could. And I documented it all. So I actually did okay. But when I was down, like getting real low, you know, my friends and my wife in particular, like, you can't get too skinny on me. So that was a change.
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Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
Yeah.
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Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
I think that we're going to have something to meal size and digestibility. However, we don't know the answer for sure. But just like some of the other studies I described, we sometimes think we know what's going on. And then you have to just do the study to show it. So I think we're going to find something to the calorie threshold theory.
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Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
Yeah.
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Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
Especially with sleep. Yes. So that's where we get mixed results. If you look at sleep data, if you do eat large calorie meals before bed, sometimes it does mess with sleep. And I don't think it's fair to say eating before bed messes with sleep. It's specifically what are you doing before sleep and what exactly are you eating?
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Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
I think we see it, like you're saying, in the people we work with. But when we're doing this in a study, we can really control it and find out exactly what's happening. So that's where I think we're going to go with it. There are data, like I think it was the Falkenberg study, and they were looking at all types of macros before bed, and it was like lower glycemic, higher fiber, and protein.
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Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
I was definitely, my body type is not really built for triathlon, but I tried to force it that way for quite a while.
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Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
Actually, we're all helpful with sleep. And so those are the things that we're really doing here. That's what we'll be looking at in these new studies if we can get them launched with our grant funding. And I feel like that's probably going to be the answer. We're going to have a threshold and probably a quality of food as well.
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Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
The oddest question I ever got about this was, does it mess with your teeth? Yeah, I can see that. And I thought, I've never asked that question. But normally, I think people would have it and then brush their teeth before bed. So we haven't gone down that pathway yet.
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Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
Yeah. So it's a little bit extrapolated from other studies we've done where just by chance there was an evening protein shake.
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Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
Yeah. So one of the earlier studies, I think it was a 2002 with Arciero, we were looking at – It was an old program called Body for Life that Bill Phillips developed. So we did the first study on that. So Paul got that grant, and I was the student in the lab helping on that study. And that one included six meals a day, and three of them were shakes.
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Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
So you had a mid-morning, mid-afternoon, and an evening protein shake. And then we did that for 12 weeks of training. And that training was like three days a week of 20 minutes a hit.
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Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
three days a week of uh resistance training so like six days of exercise great i mean really good outcomes come we're coming from that when that was compared to something like the traditional american heart association recommendations which were definitely more carb heavy definitely less protein dominant and mostly at that point just physical activity like walking getting some more exercise throughout the day
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Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
When you had the pre-sleep included in the total, like, regimen you were following, those folks had far greater outcomes in terms of abdominal fat loss, visceral adipose tissue loss, and strength and actual, like, performance outcomes over that period of time.
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Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
Absolutely. Yeah, that's the biggest thing. I'm always asked about it, and it's really just the exact thing. Don't be afraid of it. If you're hungry, you have an option. You can eat something. And it's probably going to do either nothing or it will help you.
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Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
Yeah, so I was targeting 60 grams an hour of carbohydrate, which is pretty typical.
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Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
Yeah. So we got interested in the modified carbohydrate space a while back. And it started with a student who was hyper-interested in carbohydrate.
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Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
Yeah. And they drive. I mean, my lab is so fantastic. They're all brilliant scientists. They're so much smarter than me, and I love that because they just have great ideas, and we can weave it into stuff that we can get funding for, and it's just a really good mix.
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Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
But I had this student at the time, Dan Bauer, who was a phenomenal student and hyper-interested in all things carbohydrate, and I was kind of protein-based. dominant for all of the work I was into. So it was a great addition to what we were doing there to round out sort of some of our macronutrient profiles that we were interested in.
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Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
Yeah, I didn't want to go north 90, 100 where they're starting to go now. I knew I'm not elite enough to perhaps do it. I didn't also have the stomach training to handle it. Um, and it wasn't a priority for me at the time. I wanted to do textbook so I could show my students, here's a textbook. Here's what we're doing. So it was 60 grams an hour. Um, and that, that was fine.
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Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
He started with a review paper that we sort of team wrote to just get the history of what's going on with these. And if you're unaware of these modified starches, well, regular starch, for example, has structural components of it like amylose and amylopectin, and they will dictate the rate at which it will be digested.
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Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
When you modify that starch, you can do it several ways chemically, or we were using hydrothermally modified, so it was like water and heat and pressure, and you can change it. It doesn't matter any longer what the amylopectin ratio is. That's out the window. It doesn't even matter. So that's what students get tripped up on a lot is that once you modify it, that's no longer a thing.
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Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
And so the particular product we started with, was designed for people with glycogen storage disease. Oh, McArdle's. So there's a glycogen, it's separate too. Outside of McArdle's, there's glycogen storage disease where you cannot store glycogen.
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Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
And so what you have to do, what was developed was a version of this super starch that was slow drip, didn't raise insulin and kept glucose steady for long periods of time. And so that's how it was used for ages.
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Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
Yeah. And so what athletes do, they hear about this. What I love is that the clinical goes to the athletes and the athlete kind of work also goes to clinical. So I'm thinking of cases like creatine. in athletes over to clinical. And then in this case, clinical with the glycogen storage disease coming back to athletes. So athletes here, slow drip glucose. Here we go.
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Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
Some companies got involved and they made what was called UCAN SuperStarch. And so we decided to start testing it because there were a lot of claims around it. And it was just nice. We were able to really over several studies decide, you know, what design do we need? Because the super starch folks would say that you would need less of a serving than you would have a normal carbohydrate.
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Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
So for example, if you normally have 60 grams per hour with the super starch, the claim was you could do maybe 30 grams per hour. You don't need as much of it as this slow drip. And then it wouldn't raise insulin concentrations either, which I don't know that's a good or bad thing, but it just wouldn't do it.
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Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
And there were a couple of studies on it, like Mike Roberts' group did a little bit with it, which was how we sort of knew about it. And we just sort of took it another step. We used the microdialysis probes again, and we started with cyclists. And so we brought in well-trained—they were very well-trained. They weren't elite, but they were very well-trained cyclists—
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Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
And so we put them through or Dan put them through this gnarly protocol where we made it as gut jarring as you possibly could with interval sprints and all these different protocols in a long duration. And we wanted to see 30 grams of it, which would be like a low dose. And then we also gave 60 grams of it. because that's what was recommended is 60 grams of carbohydrate.
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Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
And then we compared that to what's traditionally used in an over-the-counter sports drink. So we compared it to other sports drinks as well. And in the first study, we saw that when you compared 60 grams of the SuperStarch to 60 grams of a sports drink, the biggest trouble was that the SuperStarch induced more GI upset.
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Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
So I was, I was doing that with like goos and guroctanes. They're usually 30 grams. I was taking two of those an hour. And it had fluids on the bike. And I used a product at the time that had protein in it as well, not for anything other than maybe help save a little muscle over these prolonged periods of training. So those were some common things that I was doing over that time.
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Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
And unfortunately, the claims were that there was going to be less GI upset. But in our hands, we actually saw more GI upset.
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Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
It is, yeah. It's like a visual analog scale, and it's a 10-point scale, and you mark a line with where you feel. And nausea, wanting to vomit, that kind of thing. It was a tough protocol. So that's not good. Right. And performance, the outcomes we had were actually not different. You just felt terrible.
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Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
So like if you're talking about rating a perceived exertion and that can really dictate or limit like how well you perform. For sure. You think it's harder. But when we compared it to the 30-gram dose, which is what was typically recommended, like a lower dose, you don't need as much, worse performance. No GI upset, but worse performance.
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Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
So now you're in a case where, okay, there wasn't any GI upset, but you weren't taking enough.
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Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
So, yeah, you got in this other case. And so at the highest dose, if you could train your gut, then perhaps it was something that you could use. But you could also just use another sports drink and have a similar response. I will say two things about it, though. A mistake that was made perhaps that we did and could do better was that we didn't familiarize people to taking it.
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Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
People were used to the sports drink, the other, the comparator. Okay. But they never like had it before. So perhaps we should have given it for a while beforehand and then tried it.
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Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
It shouldn't be any different. But nevertheless, that's a comment that we received. I don't know about that.
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Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
Yeah. You wouldn't think so, but it's plausible.
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Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
Yeah. It's plausible. It's plausible. The other thing we wanted to see was maybe we needed to jostle the gut a little bit more and do running. So in a follow-up study for Dan's dissertation, he got two dissertations out of this. He went after runners, elite runners. And some of these runners were running like 14-minute 5Ks and things. Pretty good. Very fast.
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Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
After running for an hour at marathon pace. So it was a good protocol again. And we also put microdialysis probes in their belly while they're running and doing all this, which is a feat in itself because everything's jostling. So you have to tape everything down pretty good because we were also interested in what fuel were being used.
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Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
And so Dan always would say like just because you can change the fuel use should you. Sure. So just like any other feeding studies where you limit a certain macronutrient or another, you can change what's oxidized because you're eating differently or you're exercising at a different pace or what have you. And this was the same thing with UCAN. Like we could change –
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Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
The fuel that was being utilized and insulin, by the way, didn't rise. So that claim was right. It stayed low and glucose stayed quite steady. You didn't have any spikes or anything. So in the running study, it basically mimicked the cycling study, even though we were trying to jostle even more and make sure we had GI upset if we were going to see it. And it just ended up being fairly similar.
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Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
And the fat metabolism piece didn't add much to the story, unfortunately, in that particular study. So I could see a couple of uses. It does give you sustained glucose for a long period of time. If you're in a sport by which you cannot feed for a long time, maybe it's useful. Maybe long distance swimming? Yeah.
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Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
It would be an example where you could potentially use it or sometime when you just don't want to carry a lot of fuel with you or maybe you're having, I don't know, some type of sporting activity where you're not able to eat a lot. But then we thought about pre-sleep feeding.
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Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
Can I take it before bed and then run a faster morning race without having to wake up and eat in the middle of the night like a lot of people who run endurance races would do? So then we designed one where we took UCAN Superstar right before bed, compared that to our traditional glucose drinks.
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Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
Yeah.
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Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
So we would take just regular carbohydrate or we would take the UCAN Superstar.
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Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
Just the sucrose.
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Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
Yeah. We would mix it. And then one of the things I was like – So sugar, water or this?
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Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
So calorie matched and we were doing – Macronutrient matched. Macronutrient matched and they – I was hopeful that we would see maybe like, oh, you don't have to get up so early and it's lasting so long. So the only thing we did see, which was kind of neat, was that you did have an increase in carbohydrate burning in the morning, which theoretically could help with performance.
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Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
It didn't translate to it in our hands.
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Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
In other studies, we fed chocolate milk before sleep and different things. And it's the same thing. You're still burning a bunch of carbohydrates in the morning. And that may be able to translate to performance, but we haven't seen it yet. We haven't been able to tease that out in a running example.
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Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
Yeah, and that was exactly what was happening, but perhaps we didn't have – something wasn't right. Maybe the dosing was wrong because even with protein you have to do – the ideal dose is 40 grams, which is bigger than a lot of people are used to because you're going so long until you're using it again. Like all night long you have to have it.
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Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
So maybe with carbohydrate we just needed a bigger dose.
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Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
I appreciate it. It's great to do, though. I mean, that's the luxury of having a facility and a location where we can have the funding and the resources to do some of those studies. And a team. And the team's all about it. And I think everybody comes in knowing kind of the general areas we're going to go in. And we're all in.
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Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
I told you earlier, we're trying to create this culture that you go into a research lab and
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Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
for example if you go into an athletics facility you usually see all the all the swag and all the things it just feels good right and so I love that I want to replicate that as best I can in research where you come into the facility you know here we're going to do great work but it's also going to look nice and we're going to have things that make you want to be a part of what we're doing and it works I mean the students buy in the faculty that are present buy in the research subjects want to be there instead of just you know stuck in a basement that's got no windows you know it's just a great it's a great spot
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Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
We haven't had any more pursuit of that answer. But with the product that you're talking about, I think that there are other things that could be done in that particular space because that's modified to be different, right? That's modified to be fast digesting.
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Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
But I don't believe all the data. And I'd love to do a study with it because I think it's got a lot of potential and I know a lot of practitioners love it. But it was the same way with UCAN superstars. So there's something always to all these types of studies, especially with supplements. Like if you like it and you think it works, then it works. So we need to stay there.
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Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
However, I'd love to do those comparison studies with photographer because I know some of the data were like, the first 10 minutes were extremely fast and everything stopped. And if you look at after the 10 minutes, then you have issues where it doesn't go any faster. But the net was still more. And so there's just questions I love to ask about in there.
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Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
Yeah. And honestly, everybody that I know uses it tends to like it. I just, I would love it because the studies that I've read on the modifications, I'm just, it's not clear cut to me.
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Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
Or there's a different use for it. Totally. Yeah. So like these – the grants and the funding sometimes come from these companies. Most of the time. And that's how you would get work done on those. And that's a different conversation. If we want to have it, we can. But let's just say everything is kosher because that's how we run the facility.
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Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
There's a lot of things you can look at with a different lens, like what sport works where you have not a lot of fuel for a long period of time. Maybe there's a use. Or maybe you're the age group athlete and you're not going to win and you don't want insulin spiking all the time in a race where you're out there for a long period of time. Then maybe that's a really good product.
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Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
So there's different uses, different people. You've got to really just know the individual product.
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Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
Right. So we began this work six years ago, and it was originally for the purpose of looking at dosing. When we looked at the literature before we began, there were a lot in like skin health care beauty space. And that dosing was like 5 to 10 grams a day. And they had like these fairly decent outcomes over many, many studies. And so I think there was some evidence in there.
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Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
But then I was like, all right, I'm used to whey protein. What is going on with this? I'm used to like muscle outcomes or fat metab outcomes. body comp outcomes. There are one or two papers that actually showed that collagen had some benefit in that space, but they weren't compared to whey. They were compared to nothing.
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Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
And it's in one lab. We're showing this and that kind of thing. So we always wondered, well, maybe these should be not compared or we have to look at what the outcome is. If you're looking at muscle, I wouldn't use collagen for muscle.
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Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
And I think like Stu Phillips has said that over and over in some of his work. And it's right.
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Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
But for muscle, no, it's not where you want it. The amino acid profile isn't there. Right. So we were specifically looking at joint pain. That's what our outcome was. And it was in middle-aged and older, lifelong, active people. And so it was a fun time recruiting these individuals. Some golfed every day. Some ran every day. But some were elite CrossFitters. Some were triathletes.
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Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
So all kinds of a range of people, but they're all active every single day. Or not every Sunday, but very active for recruiting purposes. And then we gave them either zero, 10 or 20 grams of collagen per day. And it was designed at six months. But as we were getting closer, we said, well, if we're doing it this long, let's see if we can keep them on and do nine months.
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Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
So maybe we can look at bone.
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Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
And then we're like, well, we probably need a year, but let's see if we can get nine months and see what's happening.
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Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
And so we were still underpowered at that point, unfortunately, for Bones. So we were still primarily focused on. It's like a maybe we get it. Yeah, we'll see.
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Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
And so we offered the opportunity for the people who volunteered for six months to stay on for three more.
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Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
Yeah, like three months in we wrote to the funding agency and I said, I think we should extend this, but it's going to cost X amount to do that. Are you on board? And so they were on board with doing it. So we ended up extending it. And a couple of interesting things came from it.
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Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
It was mostly questionnaires in our study because we were looking at joint pain and we tried to use like goniometers for range of motion and some of these other things. And we did some more high tech tools that we had, but they weren't working. There was too much variability in making that happen.
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Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
And also the researcher who was doing that was a doc student driving this work, Shloa Kiyokofsky, and she's at UAMS now. And Anyway, she's still carrying on the collagen line, so it's carried on in her lab now.
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Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
Anyway, when we were looking at this, the joint pain angles we were looking at, the bottom line is over nine months of time, we had subjective improvements in joint pain when you were in our study, but there were some caveats. 10 grams did better than 20. Interesting. 10 grams is better than 20.
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Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
And when we dichotomized the amount of exercise you did, it was most helpful if you exercised for greater than 180 minutes per week of exercise. So with that said, in our hands, that was our outcome. Ten grams per day was the dose. Nine months was the timeline. We saw improvements in joint pain that were significant. And you had to exercise more than 180 minutes to feel those benefits.
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Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
The cool relationship that we were – maybe should have expected but didn't is they – we did some – mood state assessments and such. And those people who had better knee pain actually had better improvements in mood, as you would expect, not in so much pain. So yeah, that changed my tune on it because I was unsure of it entirely.
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Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
And then what we didn't measure, we always wish you had a better questionnaire or something. And people just talking to you after these studies and they're like, changed my life. Some of them, not all of them, but some of them were like, this was amazing. And I noticed that I came off of it for three months. Thing is, it takes a while. It's one of those things you have to take.
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Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
And then we started seeing differences around six months. And then they were sustained around nine months. So it took quite a while. But it's enough that as a middle-aged athlete, I've started implementing 10 grams a day. And in our study, we didn't even mix it with vitamin C, which is probably the recommended way. Like all Keith Barr's work is fascinating, and they're the best at it.
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Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
We were kind of late to the game and just wanted to have these joint pain outcomes specifically because there were evidence of it even in young athletes, like college athletes.
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Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
Of fixing joint pain. And they didn't even have joint pain to begin with. Our people all had joint pain, but no diagnosed osteoarthritis. And we saw these benefits. But even in young people, it was shown. So I think the benefit is there. I would take it separately from whey. I would use whey for my muscle building efforts. I would use collagen for my joint pain.
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Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
In other words – No, they came in a lot. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. We were seeing them regularly monthly.
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Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
The cognitive surveys. Yeah. And at the time, we were doing body comp outcomes as well, obviously, with the DEXA and the bone. And then we also had – the actual like goniometer measures, but we had to basically throw it all away because it was just useless at the end, unfortunately.
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Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
Yeah.
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Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
Mark? Yeah, not that clean, but roughly. Yeah.
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Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
Yes. And again, in the people that exercise the most.
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Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
So yeah. Do I think it's the next thing? I don't know. It just seems to sway me a little bit that if joint pain is a problem for you, it'd be worth considering because it isn't that expensive. It's very easy to take. And it's worth trying before you go and have surgery or something. You might as well give it a go.
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Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
Yeah. Yeah. It's not going to help build your muscle.
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Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
That's a good question. I don't remember.
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Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
Yeah, the mean was a significant increase, but it wasn't mind-blowing. But you had those one-offs that were like, my goodness, that's pretty cool to listen to. And that's not – it just drives more questions. Now we want to see – what else could we do? We took a ton of blood and we're still analyzing it.
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Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
So we're trying to figure out some mechanisms behind it with some of the osteoblastic or osteoclastic activities, some of the things around collagen synthesis and degradation. And so Shiloah now is working on those outcomes from that sample. And then there's other things we're working on too and had some momentum for potential use in recovery from surgery like ACL repairs.
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Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
And I think some work needs to be done in that space. We have a real good relationship now with orthopedic medicine where I am, and then Shiloh works in a department that has that focus. So I think she'll be heading up a lot of those studies and be worth watching her profile grow here in the next couple of years on that topic.
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Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
Yeah, no doubt about it. And I do think based on the data we have, if you're not exercising a lot, don't do it. Like if you have knee pain and you're not active, I wouldn't do it.
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Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
Probably the most likely answer is blood flow. You get blood flow to areas that are hard to get blood flow to. The other thing we didn't do was time, like purposely tell them when to take it in the day before exercise. Whereas like Keith's work that shows a massive benefit is when you take it before exercise so that you have it in there when you're going to get blood flow going.
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Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
We just split it morning and night so that we could do 0, 0, 5, 5, 10, 10 through the day. So those are some things that we could have done better.
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Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
Yeah, it probably would be better to do a – So possibly you could have a bigger effect.
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Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
Sure. And if we did like a training study where we actually controlled the exercise to get them to the minutes we need and then all these other factors. But I tell you, a nine-month study the way we did it, which is pretty free living, still took four years. And so if we redid it with all those other variables.
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Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
It is. I mean, you can't enroll everybody at once. So you trickle them in and roll them in. And because of that, it takes years.
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Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
Yeah, yeah.
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Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
Like that's what was so nice is like the scales and subscales were all showing, you know, if you had the improvement in pain, you started feeling better in all these other areas of your life.
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Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
Yeah, I'm not going to have a great answer for you. Yeah, we don't really know. It didn't make sense to us, and it's one of those... Why did you even think to do 10 versus 20? So a lot of times the dose on a prepackage is 15. And when we were looking at those data, there wasn't a lot in the space.
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Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
And then we were talking with some of the companies that produce it, some saying that 20 was what they sell, but I'd seen efficacy at 10. And I thought, well, we should probably figure out what dose we should be taking. And so that's why we designed it that way. But I don't know. Maybe 15 would have been the best if we didn't do it. 0, 10, and 20.
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Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
And 20 did some things, but the 10 just had kind of the most overall benefits. So that's what I would recommend at this point.
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Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
Yeah. And I'll tell you like, that's, we've been struggling with that for a while. And how do we interpret that? And, um, you know, the reviewers have the same comments. It's like, I'm sure that was comment number one. I don't get it. So, you know, that, that particular paper tries to outline some of the potential reasons, but in reality, we don't really know what happened.
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Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
Yeah. So we're, we're, We're not sure.
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Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
Yeah, without a doubt. Without a doubt. Yeah, I mean, that's the whole deal. What's so exciting about the field of performance nutrition in general for me – It's not a dead science. It evolves constantly. And that's what's great. It's like stuff I taught five years ago is probably changing the way I teach it today and could change in another five years.
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Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
And so, you know, taken as a whole, that like keeps us very interested and motivated all the time.
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Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
We don't suffer from that problem.
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Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
Sure, yeah. I mean, you think of it as a protein. It's just got sort of different amino acids that make up its structure than you would— So it's all kinds of amino acids linked together. But the biggest sort of magic to it, at least in the literature, is that it's very high in proline and glycine.
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Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
And if you can get these cyclic proline molecules, hydroxyprolines out of the structure, that's what makes it different. The whey protein, for example, is very high in leucine, whereas this is basically absent of leucine. And so that's why it's not a complete protein. It's kind of thought of for years like the rubbish sort of protein. Don't even use it. Throw it away.
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Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
Right. And yeah, so collagen in itself would be higher in these proline-hydroxyproline sort of linkages. It's thought, I mean, there's data in animals showing that as large of a nanopeptides, nine amino acids are getting through intact. That hasn't been shown in other places. Normally, all the proteins will be sort of broken apart into individual amino acids and then brought in.
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Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
These are coming in regularly in two to three amino acid structures, and then the largest I've seen is nine. And then there are these certain patterns that supposedly are what can help to drive that to be a part of the matrix for like tendons and ligaments and the structural components that it's supposed to be used for.
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Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
Yeah, and I'm skeptical of it. I mean, I've read all the literature on it. We didn't measure the tripeptides and the bigger molecules coming through, although we had plans to. It kind of fell through, unfortunately.
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Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
Yeah. But that is what the literature base is saying that that is what makes it novel and unique.
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Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
It is, and it should make you a bit skeptical about it because some of the companies, unfortunately, are saying if you take this type, then, for example, like type 1 collagen, it would go straight to tissues that need type 1 collagen. I've never seen that. I don't think that's actually the case. To me, it seems like those particular tissues are made up of certain types of amino acid chains.
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Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
This particular type of protein has an abundance of those. And then if you can get it into the blood and then driven to the tissue that needs it, perfect. Perhaps you'd see a benefit. There's a lot of ifs, ands, or buts in that statement.
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Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
Yeah, the components of collagen specifically that make it more unique because of their pattern is really the serine, glycine, and proline. And those repeating structures create these helical structures that can actually potentially do good for you.
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Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
Yeah. So the context by which we used glycine was with a product called Betaine.
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Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
B-E-T-A-I-N-E. So the way we got started with betaine was I had a student named Brandon Willingham who was interested in heat and thermoregulation. And so we were designing some studies for him to try to tease out some potential nutritional ways to affect hydration and thermoregulation. And I was aware of betaine a little bit, mostly based from animal model research that I had seen.
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Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
So I shared those with Brandon and said, start diving into all this. And he did a brilliant job in sort of coming up with various mechanisms by which betaine may be useful. And so the literature on betaine was quite fascinating to me because I don't typically read about sheep and cows and pigs, but they were
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Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
These are – that's a standard product that's in the feed or the water supply of animals in hot human conditions that need to survive. And there were data showing improved mortality in these animals that have betaine supplementation.
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Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
Yeah. But the animal research was older. And so – Brandon led a review paper that our group put out and just kind of describing why we think this might work and all this. And then he designed a really nice study that unfortunately COVID times hit and he was unable to do it. So we had to design it where we didn't do any exercise. And so here's the thing.
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Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
When the betaine was in the product of the animals, they had good outcomes in the heat and survival. The way it had been used in the one thermoreg paper that was out there was in an acute dose. And so that was a mismatch to me. And so we said, well, why don't we try to load it just like you would creatine?
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Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
Yeah, probably not going to do anything. In the one study that existed, it didn't show anything. And so I reached out to the authors of that paper and I was just gussing it with Doug Kasa. We're trying to figure out kind of what went wrong, what went right. And everyone basically dismissed it because it didn't do anything out of a really good lab.
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Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
No, I tell you, at this moment, 40 grams of a protein-dominant food that's less than 220 calories.
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Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
And so we said, well, let's look at a little bit different. Let's try to load this. So we ended up giving it in the first study for just a week. of loading, and then we had to do passive heat exposure, which means you don't exercise or do anything. You just sit in a hot environment, which was 40 degrees Celsius in our thermal null chamber.
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Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
At 40 degrees C. That's cooking. Yeah, it's hot. It's hot, but it's not enough of a stress.
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Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
And so in that study, not surprisingly, we didn't show any benefits to doing passive heat exposure. So if you live in a hot environment, this isn't going to do anything for you. You need to start doing some work in that environment. So then we were able to finally do the study that we intended to after we got through with the COVID restrictions and we started doing cycling in the heat.
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Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
And so same design again, we decided to go ahead and load it for a week. And then we did 70% VO2 max in the chamber and we turned the temperature to 33 degrees Celsius so that we could keep core temperature in a range that wouldn't eliminate us or make us end the study early. And we actually found some really cool results in that particular study.
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Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
We're writing the study up now for publication, so it's not out yet.
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Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
It was. It was pretty cool, and it was enough to drive another study. And then the last one, we designed this study to be specifically in firefighters who are prone to all kinds of heat issues, obviously. And, again, we wrapped that study up. We're trying to publish that one sort of simultaneous here.
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Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
And so in the next hopefully six months or so, we'll have both of these out and another direction for people to start looking at this particular product for heat, ThermoRig.
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Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
This was live. And so, yeah, my whole study team was phenomenal. They all went to the fire training grounds that are near to us. And they were able to convince the fire chief and everybody to get on board. And they have a connex box, like basically a large cargo unit. Shipping container. Yeah, that they light on fire. They put bales of hay in there and they light the thing on fire.
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Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
And sometimes that's training in there, sometimes it's not. So we were able to do a stair climb up and down several times and then go kneel in the connex block that's on fire. And then we had temperature gauges on the roof and on the floor. So they were kneeling, but the floor temp, which like was outrageous. It was cooking.
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Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
And even on the bottom where they were kneeling, it was like being in an oven, you know, 500, 600 degrees. It was – 4,000 degrees on top? The ceiling, yeah, the ceiling height. So it gets a little bit gnarly. Just a touch. No longer impressed by your 200-degree sauna, by the way. So they kneel in there.
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Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
Yeah. So let me tell you a story.
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Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
They had to kneel in there for 15 minutes, and even in just that amount of time, I mean, you're talking about 20 minutes losing a liter, liter and a half of water.
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Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
Right, right. So the supplement had data, which is why we went that direction to – Basically help as an osmolite and as a cellular hydration factor. So water follows it in the cell and perhaps it keeps your cell hydrated longer. It also has some properties that are published in other studies that show that it might protect proteins from degrading in hot temperatures.
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Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
Okay, so we'll get into all that. But let me first tell you the background on some of this. So stemming from those Ultraman studies and our sleep was sort of linked into this. So if anyone can remember, those old shows were giant weight loss shows on television that existed for a long time, the Ultraman. The TV talking heads would always say, stop it. There's a cutoff time. There's a cutoff time.
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Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
Yeah, so the combination of those two things, the increase in cellular volume, perhaps plasma volume, were intriguing enough for us to sort of go down this path for the last six years.
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Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
The original doses we were doing were 50 milligrams per kilogram body weight. We did it at relative. And then by the time we started the firefighter study, the doc student who ran that, Loli Renteria, she— kind of looked through everything that was relevant at that point, and we decided to give a standard three grams for everybody, not based on body weight for the firefighter study.
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Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
So three grams per day.
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Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
I mean, in our work, we were strictly looking at it for these. I know other people put it in as a hydration factor in various drinks, like pre-workouts and such.
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Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
Yeah, it's already in many different things. In fact, some of the products we were looking at, we had to find in a way that we could just get the raw ingredient because it's mixed in everything. But Yeah, it's usually in there. Sometimes it's like a filler, honestly. That's what it was used for. Cheap. Yeah, and it looks like a new nice shiny word to have on your label.
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Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
But I think it is possible that using it in this manner could be helpful for those who are doing things in extreme heat.
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Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
right what i'm curious about is if it goes beyond these extreme extreme examples and maybe it would help even like migrant field workers for example and people who are doing labor in hot environments and we just we're just not there yet yeah so in theory if it could keep your core temperature lower but it labels you to have a higher sweat rate there's lots of applications or at least maintain your sweat weight rate
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Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
Yeah, I think that's where we're going. I mean, so we've done doing nothing to doing cycling, to doing some things in a real applied setting with tactical athletes, these firefighters. And if that story holds true, as I think it might, then I think we can go at the next phase where it will be probably two aims. One would be like... FEMA kind of work. Oh, sure.
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Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
And then I think another one could be like the migrant field worker side. And then I think we have a whole slew of work to do in athletics.
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Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
And I remember being a grad student at the time or even undergrad at the time and thinking, well, everybody I know eats at night and they're all very much fit and in shape and have no problem. And so this dichotomy is going on. I'm thinking, I don't know. I've never seen a paper on it. I'd love to see that and started looking at it a little bit here and there.
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Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
Yeah, so we got interested in that theocrine, which is sort of the branded name of theocrine.
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Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
Theocrine. And so a long, long time ago, I did some work in caffeine and ephedrine when you could do it.
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Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
Yeah. This was the late 90s. And we were doing these different studies in metabolism and performance with these things. And so caffeine was always sort of an interest of mine. And then Tikrin came up as a possible caffeine memetic that may not have some of the known side effects of caffeine. Yeah.
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Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
Yeah, they said the jitters specifically was sort of how it's marketed. And so we said, well, let's take a look because it was a product that we were interested in. I had another student who was –
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Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
It's funny. We don't mean to. We're just trying to do what we can to put good work out there. But this particular one was interesting. We looked at caffeine at 300 milligrams, teacrine.
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Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
Not crazy high, but— Not crazy high. And then we did Teocrin at 300, so we were matching them. And then we did a combo where we did 150 and 150 of each and a placebo. So there were four arms to it. In our hands, the people were well-rested. They came in. They took the supplement. They waited 90 minutes. And then they did a whole bunch of tests, 1RMs. They did some rowing.
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Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
They did all kinds of different physiological things. You know, battery of tests that we were running them through. And when we did this, the most effective one we had of all of those was straight caffeine. It beat T-cranat 300. It beat the combo. It beat the placebo. And the outcomes were specifically for perceived effects. energy that they had for the event.
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Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
It didn't actually change the weight they moved or their time in anything, but they felt better doing it. They had more focus and motivation to exercise with that dose.
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Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
Now, I think where I've seen the literature go, and we didn't do this work, was more in recovering from perhaps like sleep deprivation or cases where you're super run down and then tasks that are more cognitive in nature, like marksmanship, vigilance, you know, some cognitive skills. That's where I've seen this be shown more effective than the way that we designed it.
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Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
And then finally, you know, when I was independent investigator, was it? started on that path.
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Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
Well, caffeine is always the sledgehammer.
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Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
Right. You see all these products and it's touting this or that in it. But then you just look at the caffeine dose because that's driving the response that you're probably feeling.
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Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
That you're feeling from it. So I'm not sure about that. In our hands, I think perhaps we could adjust the dosages and maybe try something different. But, man, 300 is a pretty common dose. Yeah. Yeah.
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Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
Yeah, and I don't know about, you know, now that we understand like genetic responders to it and stuff, maybe there's something like that for teacrine as well. I don't know.
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Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
So once again, looking at how clinical and sport performance nutrition crossover – Creatine is a really good example of that. We have some experts at FSU in vascular health and blood flow dynamics and microvasculature. And so we were actually trying to put creatine through microdialysis probes and see if we could get it directly to the tissue we want. Because you can put those in muscle as well.
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Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
First one in my own lab at Florida State. We got some small funding for it, and we decided, let's see what happens. And then 15 years later, we're designing two new ones right now. Okay. Let me take you on that story. Please. Yeah. So that was going on. People were saying, don't eat at this time. Don't eat. I'm thinking, I don't know. I know a lot of people.
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Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
Yeah. So there were some interesting things we were thinking through. And so a PhD student that was in the program, Holly Clark, she wrote a nice review on creatine. the possibilities of it for vascular health. So it's not the actual study. Her dissertation was, and that's not published yet, but the paper she wrote was all review. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
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Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
So that one again is hopefully, hopefully that one will be out here.
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Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
benefits of that yeah more you know with creatine it's funny it's pretty ubiquitous now but it's like it's helping with so many different realms and i think you would probably have a lot of folks say that they don't even take it for performance anymore really it's just a good side effect by percentage more people are taking it for non-performance based things it's just really cool i mean i think it's fascinating how it's going i love seeing all the updates in that space and brain health and all these other benefits of it isn't it wild man when we were kids people were having protein shakes before bed and taking creatine
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Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
You have these gut microbes that you can either feed with fuel or you can take what they produce, which would be a postbiotic.
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Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
To feed them. And then you have a postbiotic, which is what they're producing.
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Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
Right. You have the actual food form of it.
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Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
Yeah, so in our space, we're using this to look at, again, gut health, something that's being produced. The biggest one to date that we kind of know a lot about is like butyrate. That's one that's really common as a postbiotic. It's one of the ones we have the most generation of naturally, but it's also one that can go awry with –
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Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
Plus, in the bodybuilding circle, the figure world, people would purposefully eat at night, or they would purposely, if they had to wake up to use the bathroom, they'd have a protein shake sitting right there in the bathroom.
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Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
different food issues, gut upset, different issues that could happen. And so we are right now, one of my doctoral students is going to be looking at a postbiotic that contains a butyrate. And then we're going to look at gut health. We're looking at stool samples in this one in a collaboration with this great gut microbiome physiologist, Ravi Nagpal, who works with us.
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Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
Yeah. And so Ravi is going to help us with all of that. And then we're gonna be exercising in the heat for people who are unaccustomed to both exercise and exercise in the heat to try to disrupt the gut to see if we can do it. And then there are some papers showing a link between butyrate and sleep. And so we're gonna see if there's any residual changes that are occurring in sleep.
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Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
And we're gonna do it as a time course so that we can take the supplement and then see when it shows up in the stool sample so that we know it's actually getting in there, which is a step that is easy to skip because it's harder to do and it's expensive, but we're going to make sure it's actually getting to where we want it to be getting.
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Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
So if that doesn't work, then part two of the study is a little bit disrupted. But So assuming it gets where it's going to go and we'll have those answers, then we're going to look at a little bit of performance just because I always check performance, but mostly gut health and then some of the sleep dynamics.
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Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
Yeah, we do.
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Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
Yeah, I don't remember the exact dosage that we're using in that one.
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Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
Got too many lanes going.
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Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
The company that produces that product that we are asking for a grant from, it's actually already a product on the market. It's called Core Biome.
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Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
Yeah, so that's the one we're going to be using. So I don't remember the dose, but that's the product.
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Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
Yeah, so those were stemming from a series of muscle damage studies we were running, some in our lab, some were in collaboration with other universities. That particular one was with Anna McCune, who was in South Africa, now is in Australia. But we had finished a male of that paper and that study.
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Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
Yes. And we wanted to get more data. As you know, females in all research, but sports research, are severely underrepresented. And we're doing our best to move into that space as best we can, as strategically as we can, so that we get good data to come out of what we're looking at. And so that was sort of a start years ago.
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Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
That paper is probably 10 years old now where we're going in and trying to get, just pull any data we could from data that had female athletes and did any kind of muscle damage structure in their design. And it turns out in that particular paper, there wasn't all that much that was different. It was proper calories, proper energy, proper carbohydrates, proper protein as well.
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Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
So we were looking at sort of, were there anything different? And then we started looking at things like creatine and what else might be in the mix. The unique part about that paper is we just designed it to look at every study that had women to date in a damaged study. So that was what was unique about that.
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Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
It was super common. So there was just these different worlds. And so clearly, they were like, we've got to start somewhere. What's happening here? So we started looking through the literature. And this was about 2010. And there was really nothing that existed in the way that we are thinking about pre-sleep feeding and what to eat before bed.
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Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
And in our hands, we followed that with a couple of papers where we ran downhill at 10% or 15%, depending on the study, just to induce damage. And then we did that in men and women, and we were trying to see if we could use some of these multi-ingredient performance supplements to fix anything.
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Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
No.
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Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
Yeah, exactly. Yeah, I was taking all the ones that you know work individually and then you put them all together. And when I say no, I was being a little facetious. Like the individual products will do something, but we're not just not seeing a robust enough response to say you're going to mitigate this. You might like... Come back to normal a tad better. I don't even want to say faster.
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Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
We were misquoted one time. Someone pulled open – when we used to read magazines and like pulled open a magazine and said, you're in there. It says you recovered like 300 percent faster. I'm like, we didn't even measure faster. Like it wasn't even part of the design. Yeah.
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Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
Yeah.
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Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
Not yet. Not yet that I'm aware of.
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Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
But I'll tell you, like, it's really hard to distinguish because you look at the research in females and female athletes particularly, particularly around like menstrual cycle changes and throughout the lifespan as well. And there's definitely things that could help with different life phases. And then there's some data that show like
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Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
Performance hasn't really changed in the research that exists around the cycle, at least to date. But there's clearly a bunch of side effects or physiological effects that the women feel in all the literature that don't exist that could make you not want to perform, not want to go exercise. And I think that's sort of being discounted a little bit in what I'm reading so far. So I don't know.
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Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
There's a lot more work that has to be done there. If you look at it as black and white on a piece of paper, I don't think you can pinpoint one thing. I'm sure there are things that work for certain individuals and certain women that have a way to strategize their nutrition.
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Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
There was some data in large mixed meals like having your full-on dinner before bed late at night that weren't very good. So 1993, Roman did a study where – I remember they gave 544 calories and they gave you this in the morning, in the afternoon or in the evening. And they just measured your metabolic response to the meal. And it was just a stair step.
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Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
Yeah. I would even say there probably is. I'm not sure.
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Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
Yeah. So one of our doc students, Tim Grease, is much more straight sport performance, sports science. He spends an inordinate amount of time working with FSU athletics in different spaces now. About half time in there and then half time with us. But he's interested in travel and the effects on sleep and also on performance.
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Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
And so he's going to be able to travel with one of our women's teams in the spring and take three different trips with the team. So we're in Florida. So an East Coast trip. And then he'll also do two West Coast trips all the way out here to California. And so he'll do one where they stay on East Coast time and then one where they switch to West Coast time.
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Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
And so then he'll have force plates he's bringing with him. He's going to have force plates data, hand grip data, and then all the sleep metrics and a bunch of questionnaires that he'll be rolling through. So we can try to get a handle on, like, how does that work in a team setting? And does it even make a difference?
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Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
Yeah, me too. It deals with things we're interested in. But again, we've got a student driving the train on something that deals with human performance in an area that's relevant. And I think people will be interested in it.
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Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
It's all changing.
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Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
The other thing to consider is like they're doing all of that and then having to maintain classes.
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Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
And then play again at home. And I think the stress on these student athletes is pretty tremendous that we don't often give them a lot of credit for because you see them on TV or you're watching them play. And it's like, oh, they just play. They don't need to go to class. But a lot of them do care about class. And it's a big, big stress to do that kind of travel.
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Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
So if you had it in the morning, you had the best response. In the middle of the day, you had a medium response. If you had it at night, you had a very low metabolic response to that meal.
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Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
Yeah. You see that so much, you know, especially with the rise of people bickering on social media and stuff. And it's – At least in my world of academics, I can't even take a grant from a company that we don't get full rights to publish every single thing we find.
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Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
Not at a big research university. I mean those are unfavorable terms. You cannot do that. Like my job depends upon publishing. And the university can't accept the money for me to administer the grant and carry it out if there's any terms that don't allow full rights to the data. And so I think that's largely, I understand it, obviously.
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Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
But in my experience, it's really hard to get these grants, especially with a reputation like ours where it's like I think they come to us because if it works, I think they can be trusted. And if it doesn't work, I'm going to tell you it doesn't work. And then my goal would be that a company would take that in stride and say, well, let me improve it. doesn't always work that way.
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Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
And, you know, some relationships, I don't know, they just amicably end. But, you know, really our goal is to just do the best work we possibly can. And then your intention of this question is good because You can trust the data, but I think you also have to look at the lab and the university and the lead author and the corresponding author.
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Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
And you have to have sort of a skill set to make sure that the data look great. And even then, you're not always 100% guaranteed for sure because there's biases that exist everywhere. But by and large, you can basically put to rest that someone's missing with all the data just to make sure that they publish what the company wants. I can't even take those grants at all.
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Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
Yeah.
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Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
Not at all. That is not fair. I mean, some of the best work that exists would never come. And if you want answers about these supplement questions... Every study you've ever done. Somebody has to... do it and someone has to fund it. They're expensive. And you're not going to get some of this kind of funding unless there's a disease state from some of the federal agencies.
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Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
Exactly. Yeah. More to the story, but... And in reverse, they'd say, if you had your calories at night, you're going to get fat. Bingo. You're going to gain weight.
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Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
And even then it's harder to get in that realm. And so if you want those data, you have to get it from a company that has something that is invested in it. They make the product. They want to produce the product. And the best examples that I've been a part of, people have approached you early before something's designed and that's rare.
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Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
Most times it exists already and then they make enough money to then fund research so then they can try it. And then in some cases, these companies do really well. Sometimes they'll fold. Sometimes they change their marketing strategy. Sometimes they'll change a dosing strategy.
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Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
And then several other things have happened along the way. There was a study in 2004 from DeCastro, and that looked at like, when do you feel the hungriest and when do you eat the biggest meal? And they're always in the evening. And so all the data were lining up that your hungriest at that time, your ability to like control your caloric intake. It's worse at that time.
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Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
It makes people scared.
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Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
Yeah. I think there's two approaches to it. I actually don't know a ton of people who will be searching PubMed like you or I might for these papers. And so if you're looking at a whole, like a product, then I would look at how the product's tested, the label, the third-party testing that exists for some of the actual supplements. You probably have covered some of that before.
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Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
It's an interesting place to be and the companies have to do a ton of work to get those certifications, particularly for sport.
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Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
And there's different uses for them. And so people can say what they want sort of about the back and forth, but those are what currently are trusted. And they're the ones that are getting into like universities and these other things. So that's an important sort of distinction. Yeah.
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Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
An easy way is some resources like examine.com where people can look up the individual ingredients, see what other papers have been published on it. They get sort of a grade on it.
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Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
And then if you're actually reading the paper, I think you're going to have to then say, okay, who wrote that paper and just search that person's name again and see if you can come up with any other things that you're seeing as a pattern in that space.
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Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
Yeah.
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Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
I mean, yeah. If you want these things to be researched, we need funding sources.
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Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
And if it wants to be 100% independent, then please ping our research account because we can run those studies. Yeah.
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Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
No, I mean, I think we covered quite a lot. I hope we didn't get sort of lost in the weeds on some of it. But for me, it's really important to share that you can have a pretty fulfilling career and fulfilling life doing what you love to do. And you just have to find the right outlet for it. And that's sort of the passion we're trying to share with all of this.
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Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
How can we sort of get human performance to a place that is mainstream? And how can we answer these questions that people ask? And I hope that if anything from this, you can kind of see that the work we're putting out there is, I hope, going to lead sort of the change in that sort of mindset and shift on how we view these types of studies.
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Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
Yeah. So we had a venture a while back to create basically an academic course, but for everyday people. It's 24, 30-minute lectures. It was put out by a company called The Great Courses at the time. Got picked up by Wondrium. But if you're interested in a classroom kind of a setting, that's what it is. It's designed for everyday people, but everything you want to know about.
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Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
It's called Changing Body Composition Through Diet and Exercise. So it's not all that sexy of a title, but it tells you what you're going to get.
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Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
And so everyone says you're going to have trouble. But I'm thinking of a protein shake, right? And that's how we started.
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Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
Yes, yeah.
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Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
No, no, that's like on Amazon and other places, yeah.
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Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
Our pay for testing services, basically anybody can have access to the research grade equipment that we use. It's sort of a win-win for everybody. You get a great experience in our institute. The equipment stays continually used, which is how it works better than worse. The service fees, as Andy mentioned, are reasonable. And so that's just all through our website.
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Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
It is. It's quite reasonable. And they give great packages. And we have a outreach director, Kieran Patterson, now who's running that part of it. And we have students involved. So you give everyone kind of a good experience.
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Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
Yeah, and it's just great. We even have like dietary counseling and services like that that are available. So a lot of the – I tell you, it's everybody. We've had 14-year-old athletes that are on their way up to Olympic caliber to 75-year-old individuals who heard they should add a little bit of muscle. And so everyone in between is sort of showing up to see what we've got over there.
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Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
It's a good spot. And where do they find that? Where are they going to see that and – That's just on the website for the lab, which is issm.fsu.edu.
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Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
It really is. And it's like common sense is like, well, I don't need 600 calories. I just want a protein shake. What is that going to do? Or scrambled eggs or whatever it was that I was eating just naturally at that time. So we designed a couple of studies at that time. Very simple. Great, simple design, simple answer.
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Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
I give you a few options to drink before bed, like a whey shake, a casein shake, 30 grams a piece or carbohydrate or a placebo. And they all taste the same, they're blinded. And so you go home, you take this, you come back to me in the morning and I measure your resting metabolic rate. That's it. I see how your metabolism may or may not change some eight hours later.
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Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
And so you come back in the morning, and if you had nothing, so like the placebo, which was no calories, you had a response where your RQ was kind of low, so you're burning more fat at that period of time, as you would.
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Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
And that was no difference from the casein drink. So in both cases, in the first studies, if you had either nothing or you had casein, you still had quite a nice ability to burn a big percentage of fat the next morning. And then when we gave the whey, that was pretty close, but not quite there in terms of how low the RQ was, how good the fat burning was.
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Dr. Michael Ormsbee: Food Timing, Nutrition & Supplements for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth & Recovery
And then carbohydrate was a little bit worse than that. But nothing was bad. And everything seemed to show an improvement over having no calories at all in terms of the total metabolic rate the next morning. But so many holes in that, right?