Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman
Appearances
Conan O’Brien Needs A Friend
The Conan and Jordan Show – Marriage Counseling
Okay, so let's pause a minute. So what's it like for you when you hear him say that?
Conan O’Brien Needs A Friend
The Conan and Jordan Show – Marriage Counseling
What was it like for you to hear him say, I certainly respect you? Do you believe him?
Conan O’Brien Needs A Friend
The Conan and Jordan Show – Marriage Counseling
I remember thinking that the parallel.
Conan O’Brien Needs A Friend
The Conan and Jordan Show – Marriage Counseling
So you really appreciate that honesty.
Conan O’Brien Needs A Friend
The Conan and Jordan Show – Marriage Counseling
So pause for a minute. Yes, doctor. Okay. So what I see is you guys slinging insults back and forth, back and forth, back and forth. There was one little piece of appreciation from you, one from you. You appreciated his honesty. You said you respected him. So how does it feel to hear appreciation versus insult? and be honest about it. How does it actually feel?
Conan O’Brien Needs A Friend
The Conan and Jordan Show – Marriage Counseling
Do you take it in when you hear that appreciation?
Conan O’Brien Needs A Friend
The Conan and Jordan Show – Marriage Counseling
How many followers do you guys have?
Conan O’Brien Needs A Friend
The Conan and Jordan Show – Marriage Counseling
Stop. Don't describe him. Describe you. So you were doing a beautiful job. Perfect, perfect, perfect answer. You didn't go defensive. You didn't go counterattacking. You described you. And that is really, really, really important in terms of having a decent relationship. You don't describe the other person.
Conan O’Brien Needs A Friend
The Conan and Jordan Show – Marriage Counseling
Because every time you guys do, for the most part, it turns into either criticism or contempt. And contempt is sulfuric acid for a relationship. It's when you're criticizing from on high. Being superior fails. What else is it? Not only that for contempt, but it also predicts how many infectious illnesses the listener is going to have in the next four years. The times of contempt in 15 minutes.
Conan O’Brien Needs A Friend
The Conan and Jordan Show – Marriage Counseling
Okay. Shaving errors. I mean, it's objectively.
Conan O’Brien Needs A Friend
The Conan and Jordan Show – Marriage Counseling
He may have intentionally wanted to leave that disgusting, tough hair on his head.
Conan O’Brien Needs A Friend
The Conan and Jordan Show – Marriage Counseling
And why does it matter to you? Why does it matter to you?
Conan O’Brien Needs A Friend
The Conan and Jordan Show – Marriage Counseling
Yeah. We're always learning. He taught us something.
Conan O’Brien Needs A Friend
The Conan and Jordan Show – Marriage Counseling
Okay, pause. Pause, pause, pause. So when you correct him, that's contempt.
Conan O’Brien Needs A Friend
The Conan and Jordan Show – Marriage Counseling
I know more than you do. Let me tell you how it's right.
Conan O’Brien Needs A Friend
The Conan and Jordan Show – Marriage Counseling
Can I point out something?
Conan O’Brien Needs A Friend
The Conan and Jordan Show – Marriage Counseling
You only want to share knowledge when the other person wants to hear it. If you share it when the other person is talking about something else and you correct their grammar, you correct their pronunciation, you're interrupting what they're trying to say and being superior because you know better and commenting on it. And when he does that, what do you feel?
Conan O’Brien Needs A Friend
The Conan and Jordan Show – Marriage Counseling
Does this feel like the kind of relationship you want to have?
Conan O’Brien Needs A Friend
The Conan and Jordan Show – Marriage Counseling
How about if you just say to him, please don't put me down?
Conan O’Brien Needs A Friend
The Conan and Jordan Show – Marriage Counseling
Not yet. Not yet. He was going there.
Conan O’Brien Needs A Friend
The Conan and Jordan Show – Marriage Counseling
so i really appreciate you sharing that history that history is really helpful it lets us know that for one thing growing up in a family where you're always being attacked you've got to survive right and how do you survive you create defenses yes and your defense is to counter attack but the problem with the defense like that you know it's a shield in front of you to kind of hide yourself so you don't get shamed
Conan O’Brien Needs A Friend
The Conan and Jordan Show – Marriage Counseling
is that you're also blocking out the positive that comes from him, the respect, the care that may be in there. Are we certain it's in there?
Conan O’Brien Needs A Friend
The Conan and Jordan Show – Marriage Counseling
I do. I think there's a lot of caring.
Conan O’Brien Needs A Friend
The Conan and Jordan Show – Marriage Counseling
Conan, how many decades have you been together?
Conan O’Brien Needs A Friend
The Conan and Jordan Show – Marriage Counseling
Three decades. Okay, so my guess is that if you really, really wanted to, you could work elsewhere, but you don't want to.
Conan O’Brien Needs A Friend
The Conan and Jordan Show – Marriage Counseling
Yeah, we're great. OK, so. When you are hitting at him, he, of course, blocks you. But when you say, look, I really respect you, and you meant that, seriously, I could tell it wasn't made up, boom, you push it back. Off it goes. Doesn't go inside. Just bounces off. I'm terrible at taking a compliment. I saw that. Why?
Conan O’Brien Needs A Friend
The Conan and Jordan Show – Marriage Counseling
It feels good to have those compliments, Conan.
Conan O’Brien Needs A Friend
The Conan and Jordan Show – Marriage Counseling
That is sad because those compliments could probably do a lot to heal all that shame inside, fear inside, feeling attacked always if you let in those compliments.
Conan O’Brien Needs A Friend
The Conan and Jordan Show – Marriage Counseling
Stop. Stop. He's apologizing. And you're interrupting. Stop. Stop. Stop. He's apologizing to you. He is trying to repair some injury he caused you. Did you take it in?
Conan O’Brien Needs A Friend
The Conan and Jordan Show – Marriage Counseling
Is that more important than him trying to repair the damage he's done?
Conan O’Brien Needs A Friend
The Conan and Jordan Show – Marriage Counseling
Tell you what, tell you what, tell most, huh? How about if John and I role play a totally different kind of conversation?
Conan O’Brien Needs A Friend
The Conan and Jordan Show – Marriage Counseling
We're going to be you slightly improved.
Conan O’Brien Needs A Friend
The Conan and Jordan Show – Marriage Counseling
It doesn't matter. Okay. It's just what's between us. Got it. That matters, right? So do you want to take the beard patch?
Conan O’Brien Needs A Friend
The Conan and Jordan Show – Marriage Counseling
Okay. What is it that I'm doing that annoys you?
Conan O’Brien Needs A Friend
The Conan and Jordan Show – Marriage Counseling
You know what? I did not know that that felt insulting to you. What would make it better for you? Um,
Conan O’Brien Needs A Friend
The Conan and Jordan Show – Marriage Counseling
That would be good. Okay. If you want feedback, maybe, or something.
Conan O’Brien Needs A Friend
The Conan and Jordan Show – Marriage Counseling
Okay. Okay. Sounds like, though, if I'm seeing something, for example, a patch of beard that you haven't shaved. Okay.
Conan O’Brien Needs A Friend
The Conan and Jordan Show – Marriage Counseling
And it kind of grates me just a little bit. So should I point out? I hate authority. So when I point that out, I feel like an authority to you.
Conan O’Brien Needs A Friend
The Conan and Jordan Show – Marriage Counseling
Oh, no. So I remind you of your father? Mm-hmm. Oh, my God. That's terrible.
Conan O’Brien Needs A Friend
The Conan and Jordan Show – Marriage Counseling
I don't want to be like your father. I really don't. Okay. Because I know on some level you hate your father.
Conan O’Brien Needs A Friend
The Conan and Jordan Show – Marriage Counseling
If you pronounce... Take it in, Jordan.
Conan O’Brien Needs A Friend
The Conan and Jordan Show – Marriage Counseling
to correct Conan? What's that about?
Conan O’Brien Needs A Friend
The Conan and Jordan Show – Marriage Counseling
Let's come out of this.
Conan O’Brien Needs A Friend
The Conan and Jordan Show – Marriage Counseling
What you're doing is saying, Conan, you're wrong. I'm right. And it becomes a win lose thing. he has to lose, you get to win. Is that fulfilling to you? Does that bring you emotionally closer to him?
Conan O’Brien Needs A Friend
The Conan and Jordan Show – Marriage Counseling
But that's not how he thinks about it. It's not a sharing of information.
Conan O’Brien Needs A Friend
The Conan and Jordan Show – Marriage Counseling
Can you actually express empathy for him rather than infantilizing him? Don't infantilize him.
Conan O’Brien Needs A Friend
The Conan and Jordan Show – Marriage Counseling
You ask for a prediction, you're never going to fire him.
Conan O’Brien Needs A Friend
The Conan and Jordan Show – Marriage Counseling
And that's because this has been going on for three decades. If you were going to fire him, you would have fired him 25 years ago. I actually think I did, but he just kept showing up.
Conan O’Brien Needs A Friend
The Conan and Jordan Show – Marriage Counseling
So let me say one other thing. May I, in terms of prediction? Sure. So you guys bicker and banter back and forth, lots of criticism, lots of contempt. Nobody's being vulnerable. You're not, Jordan. You're not either. But the rewards for not being serious and vulnerable are too big for you guys to want to change the relationship. Yeah. the rewards of success, of money, of followers.
Conan O’Brien Needs A Friend
The Conan and Jordan Show – Marriage Counseling
You know what? I would love for you guys, I would love to hear someday on your show, you know what? Conan is really brilliant. Yeah, Jordan is really brilliant too. Wouldn't that be amazing? Yes, I'd love to.
Conan O’Brien Needs A Friend
The Conan and Jordan Show – Marriage Counseling
No way. Is that the right one? Yes, it is.
Conan O’Brien Needs A Friend
The Conan and Jordan Show – Marriage Counseling
Yeah, we have viewed the footage. We see the problems in the relationship. We saw that within about three and a half minutes. And it was obvious that both of you guys were uncomfortable, really uncomfortable. Yeah. And it just kept getting worse.
Conan O’Brien Needs A Friend
The Conan and Jordan Show – Marriage Counseling
They won't shock you. Okay. They won't stimulate you. Oh. They record your heart rate.
Conan O’Brien Needs A Friend
The Conan and Jordan Show – Marriage Counseling
It's funny. He does look like he comes from Earth. So what that means is that your heart rate is so high that you're extremely uncomfortable. You're in a little bit of fight or flight. Wow. Right now. Just right now.
Conan O’Brien Needs A Friend
The Conan and Jordan Show – Marriage Counseling
It has. It has. OK, I accept that. What it tells us. See, you guys have already had an interaction, right? Yeah. You just had interaction and you sat. You took it in. It was critical. It put you down a lot.
Conan O’Brien Needs A Friend
The Conan and Jordan Show – Marriage Counseling
Yep. So basically, when your heart rate goes over 100 beats a minute, it means you feel attacked. That's what it means. And your body is reacting as you would if you were facing a saber-toothed tiger.
Conan O’Brien Needs A Friend
The Conan and Jordan Show – Marriage Counseling
Heart rate goes up. So, you know what would be good to do, guys, is if we could just watch you for, you know, five minutes or something, just talk about a problem you guys haven't solved, whatever it is. We'll just watch and see where we might be able to shift things a little bit.
Conan O’Brien Needs A Friend
The Conan and Jordan Show – Marriage Counseling
Does that sound okay? Okay.
Conan O’Brien Needs A Friend
The Conan and Jordan Show – Marriage Counseling
Jordan, can I point out something? Human beings are pack animals. We need each other. We depend on each other. And in fact, we can't survive unless we have connection.
Conan O’Brien Needs A Friend
The Conan and Jordan Show – Marriage Counseling
Wait, Conan. Oh, I'm sorry. I'm sorry. Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. And the fact that this relationship is not a healthy connection, it doesn't feel good to you, and that's getting highlighted a little bit.
Conan O’Brien Needs A Friend
The Conan and Jordan Show – Marriage Counseling
Okay. So what you're saying is that that's not a personal need. What that is, is trying to control his interaction with you.
Conan O’Brien Needs A Friend
The Conan and Jordan Show – Marriage Counseling
Okay, so flip it on its head.
Conan O’Brien Needs A Friend
The Conan and Jordan Show – Marriage Counseling
Okay. That's probably not something Jordan would really enjoy. Oh, I hadn't thought of that. Yeah. And so try saying how he could shine for you. What could he do right for you?