Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman

Okay, so let's pause a minute. So what's it like for you when you hear him say that?

What was it like for you to hear him say, I certainly respect you? Do you believe him?

A little bit.

I remember thinking that the parallel.

Have you got the date?

So you really appreciate that honesty.

So pause for a minute. Yes, doctor. Okay. So what I see is you guys slinging insults back and forth, back and forth, back and forth. There was one little piece of appreciation from you, one from you. You appreciated his honesty. You said you respected him. So how does it feel to hear appreciation versus insult? and be honest about it. How does it actually feel?

Do you take it in when you hear that appreciation?

How many followers do you guys have?

Stop. Don't describe him. Describe you. So you were doing a beautiful job. Perfect, perfect, perfect answer. You didn't go defensive. You didn't go counterattacking. You described you. And that is really, really, really important in terms of having a decent relationship. You don't describe the other person.

Because every time you guys do, for the most part, it turns into either criticism or contempt. And contempt is sulfuric acid for a relationship. It's when you're criticizing from on high. Being superior fails. What else is it? Not only that for contempt, but it also predicts how many infectious illnesses the listener is going to have in the next four years. The times of contempt in 15 minutes.

Yes.

Put down.

Okay. Shaving errors. I mean, it's objectively.

Can you read his mind?

He may have intentionally wanted to leave that disgusting, tough hair on his head.

And why does it matter to you? Why does it matter to you?

Yeah. We're always learning. He taught us something.

Okay, pause. Pause, pause, pause. So when you correct him, that's contempt.

I know more than you do. Let me tell you how it's right.

Can I point out something?

You only want to share knowledge when the other person wants to hear it. If you share it when the other person is talking about something else and you correct their grammar, you correct their pronunciation, you're interrupting what they're trying to say and being superior because you know better and commenting on it. And when he does that, what do you feel?

Are you, dear?

Does this feel like the kind of relationship you want to have?

Yeah.

How about if you just say to him, please don't put me down?

Yes, I was.

Not yet. Not yet. He was going there.

so i really appreciate you sharing that history that history is really helpful it lets us know that for one thing growing up in a family where you're always being attacked you've got to survive right and how do you survive you create defenses yes and your defense is to counter attack but the problem with the defense like that you know it's a shield in front of you to kind of hide yourself so you don't get shamed

is that you're also blocking out the positive that comes from him, the respect, the care that may be in there. Are we certain it's in there?

I do. I think there's a lot of caring.

Conan, how many decades have you been together?

Three decades. Okay, so my guess is that if you really, really wanted to, you could work elsewhere, but you don't want to.

Okay.

Yeah, we're great. OK, so. When you are hitting at him, he, of course, blocks you. But when you say, look, I really respect you, and you meant that, seriously, I could tell it wasn't made up, boom, you push it back. Off it goes. Doesn't go inside. Just bounces off. I'm terrible at taking a compliment. I saw that. Why?

It feels good to have those compliments, Conan.

That is sad because those compliments could probably do a lot to heal all that shame inside, fear inside, feeling attacked always if you let in those compliments.

That's right.

Yeah.

See, I've learned.

Conan.

Conan.

Stop. Stop. He's apologizing. And you're interrupting. Stop. Stop. Stop. He's apologizing to you. He is trying to repair some injury he caused you. Did you take it in?

Is that more important than him trying to repair the damage he's done?

Tell you what, tell you what, tell most, huh? How about if John and I role play a totally different kind of conversation?

Okay.

We're going to be you slightly improved.

It doesn't matter. Okay. It's just what's between us. Got it. That matters, right? So do you want to take the beard patch?

Okay. What is it that I'm doing that annoys you?

You know what? I did not know that that felt insulting to you. What would make it better for you? Um,

That would be good. Okay. If you want feedback, maybe, or something.

Okay. Okay. Sounds like, though, if I'm seeing something, for example, a patch of beard that you haven't shaved. Okay.

And it kind of grates me just a little bit. So should I point out? I hate authority. So when I point that out, I feel like an authority to you.

Oh, no. So I remind you of your father? Mm-hmm. Oh, my God. That's terrible.

I don't want to be like your father. I really don't. Okay. Because I know on some level you hate your father.

If you pronounce... Take it in, Jordan.

to correct Conan? What's that about?

Let's come out of this.

Jordan.

What you're doing is saying, Conan, you're wrong. I'm right. And it becomes a win lose thing. he has to lose, you get to win. Is that fulfilling to you? Does that bring you emotionally closer to him?

But that's not how he thinks about it. It's not a sharing of information.

Jordan, careful.

Can you actually express empathy for him rather than infantilizing him? Don't infantilize him.

You ask for a prediction, you're never going to fire him.

And that's because this has been going on for three decades. If you were going to fire him, you would have fired him 25 years ago. I actually think I did, but he just kept showing up.

So let me say one other thing. May I, in terms of prediction? Sure. So you guys bicker and banter back and forth, lots of criticism, lots of contempt. Nobody's being vulnerable. You're not, Jordan. You're not either. But the rewards for not being serious and vulnerable are too big for you guys to want to change the relationship. Yeah. the rewards of success, of money, of followers.

You know what? I would love for you guys, I would love to hear someday on your show, you know what? Conan is really brilliant. Yeah, Jordan is really brilliant too. Wouldn't that be amazing? Yes, I'd love to.

No way. Is that the right one? Yes, it is.

You want to hit Neil.

You do call me.

Yeah, we have viewed the footage. We see the problems in the relationship. We saw that within about three and a half minutes. And it was obvious that both of you guys were uncomfortable, really uncomfortable. Yeah. And it just kept getting worse.

They won't shock you. Okay. They won't stimulate you. Oh. They record your heart rate.

Let's see the numbers.

It's funny. He does look like he comes from Earth. So what that means is that your heart rate is so high that you're extremely uncomfortable. You're in a little bit of fight or flight. Wow. Right now. Just right now.

Sitting.

It has. It has. OK, I accept that. What it tells us. See, you guys have already had an interaction, right? Yeah. You just had interaction and you sat. You took it in. It was critical. It put you down a lot.

Yep. So basically, when your heart rate goes over 100 beats a minute, it means you feel attacked. That's what it means. And your body is reacting as you would if you were facing a saber-toothed tiger.

Heart rate goes up. So, you know what would be good to do, guys, is if we could just watch you for, you know, five minutes or something, just talk about a problem you guys haven't solved, whatever it is. We'll just watch and see where we might be able to shift things a little bit.

Does that sound okay? Okay.

Jordan, can I point out something? Human beings are pack animals. We need each other. We depend on each other. And in fact, we can't survive unless we have connection.

Wait, Conan. Oh, I'm sorry. I'm sorry. Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. And the fact that this relationship is not a healthy connection, it doesn't feel good to you, and that's getting highlighted a little bit.

Okay. So what you're saying is that that's not a personal need. What that is, is trying to control his interaction with you.

Okay, so flip it on its head.

Okay. That's probably not something Jordan would really enjoy. Oh, I hadn't thought of that. Yeah. And so try saying how he could shine for you. What could he do right for you?