Dr. David Kessler
Appearances
Khloé in Wonder Land
Grief, Guilt & the Gifts We Don’t Expect ft. David Kessler
You are going to be helping so many people just by us having this conversation. Thank you. I think we have the illusion that grief is somehow this straight arrow. Better, better, better, better. And it really is just a big mess. What's the goal of grief? It's to remember with more love than pain, in your own time, in your own way. Grief must be witnessed. We need to witness without fixing.
Khloé in Wonder Land
Grief, Guilt & the Gifts We Don’t Expect ft. David Kessler
Yeah, I gotta stop you. You weren't dumb. You weren't dumb. Just, you know, we are judgment machines on planet Earth. We are. We are judgment machines. And I could maybe compete with you on self-judgment. I probably would win. But, you know, here's the thing. People say to me, My loved one's ill. I'm going to force my 19 year old, my 15 year old to spend time with them.
Khloé in Wonder Land
Grief, Guilt & the Gifts We Don’t Expect ft. David Kessler
One of the things I say to young people and people who are adults, you're doing grief right. You were doing it in character as a 19 year old. 19 year olds don't know how to do it. And you had a father who didn't know how to die. It kind of goes right back to he was as much in the dark, too. We don't teach people how to die. Right. And so he's lost. You are lost. So what are you going to do?
Khloé in Wonder Land
Grief, Guilt & the Gifts We Don’t Expect ft. David Kessler
You're going to be a 19 year old. Yeah, there's no dumb in that.
Khloé in Wonder Land
Grief, Guilt & the Gifts We Don’t Expect ft. David Kessler
meddling around and how lucky they are to have you in your in their life because you you do know this world you get you know once we've had a loss we get x-ray vision you're like oh i know that 13 year old now i want to go back if we can to the guilt and anger because i want to make sure to give folks some understanding of this First of all, anger is grief.
Khloé in Wonder Land
Grief, Guilt & the Gifts We Don’t Expect ft. David Kessler
I think many people don't realize it's grief. And anger, I often think, is pain's bodyguard.
Khloé in Wonder Land
Grief, Guilt & the Gifts We Don’t Expect ft. David Kessler
The anger shows up first to protect you. And 19-year-old you had to shut down on all of that to survive. You know, I always say, if you had all the feelings of your father's death, In that day, and I had all the feelings of either my mother's death or my younger son's death, in one day, we would be on the floor and we would never get up. Right. There's a grace in denial.
Khloé in Wonder Land
Grief, Guilt & the Gifts We Don’t Expect ft. David Kessler
You're so right about that. Denial paces things out so that we can digest it a little slower. You couldn't have taken it in. And the guilt, I always say, and this is an interesting one to think about, we would always rather feel guilty than helpless. Mm-hmm. A 19-year-old or anyone, really, when they experience grief, sometimes life is out of control. What? He died? Some more people could die?
Khloé in Wonder Land
Grief, Guilt & the Gifts We Don’t Expect ft. David Kessler
So what happens? Our guilt gives us the illusion of control. Oh, maybe if I had showed up more, it'd be different. It would feel different. All that. And it's like a Rubik's Cube that we play with so that the feelings don't overpower us. Right. Can you go back and see that 19-year-old different now?
Khloé in Wonder Land
Grief, Guilt & the Gifts We Don’t Expect ft. David Kessler
So that's how you held it then. How do you hold his death today?
Khloé in Wonder Land
Grief, Guilt & the Gifts We Don’t Expect ft. David Kessler
He was going to maybe beat it at the end. Right. Or I could have a million conversations with strangers. It's really hard. Like, oh my gosh. Even to talk to my older son about, you know, his younger brother's death, it's hard to see. Like for your dad, I think about to have to look into all of your faces, your sister, your brother, and to say goodbye.
Khloé in Wonder Land
Grief, Guilt & the Gifts We Don’t Expect ft. David Kessler
I mean, brutal. Brutal. Brutal. Yes. And so... It's the best he could do. It's how society taught him. We also have a medical system that misleads people. We don't know how to even tell people who are dying the truth always. Right. And prepare families still today that, oh, You know, there is a time for optimism, and I'm the most optimistic person in the world. There's a time for optimism.
Khloé in Wonder Land
Grief, Guilt & the Gifts We Don’t Expect ft. David Kessler
I believe you. And I am. And there is a time when optimism becomes denial. And we're not great at understanding that.
Khloé in Wonder Land
Grief, Guilt & the Gifts We Don’t Expect ft. David Kessler
that's why these kind of conversations just will mean the world to people who are like no one's talked to me and you know the thing that the producer did I'm always uh I say people need to do this in their own time in their own way so I wish you would have had more choice in that it was very producer heavy like in hindsight but it it did got you there get me over that because somehow
Khloé in Wonder Land
Grief, Guilt & the Gifts We Don’t Expect ft. David Kessler
I'm so glad we're doing this publicly, because it's so important for people to get these conversations modeled. Yes, because no one does it. So As you can imagine, I grew up with a mother who was a normal mom, but she had some illnesses and then she had to go to the big city hospital, which was hours away. Now, no one decides like I wasn't in third grade or fifth grade and everyone's talking about
Khloé in Wonder Land
Grief, Guilt & the Gifts We Don’t Expect ft. David Kessler
They became the camera, the audience became a safe place for you to talk. And what you learned is we can't heal what we don't feel. Right. And you got to say it. I also know that, you know, we both love writing. And one of the things I love about writing is it's a place you can witness your own grief. Because we have distortions. We have stories around death.
Khloé in Wonder Land
Grief, Guilt & the Gifts We Don’t Expect ft. David Kessler
I remember I used to always think since my mother died at 13, she abandoned me. And then I did this exercise with myself on paper. I wrote this story out from my father's perspective, who wasn't good with grief. I thought, what's it like for him? His wife's dying. And he's got this kid he doesn't know how to raise. What's it like for these nurses that won't let me in?
Khloé in Wonder Land
Grief, Guilt & the Gifts We Don’t Expect ft. David Kessler
Oh, they've been told these rules that are best for the patient. And then I thought about my mother. This woman who has to say goodbye to her child doesn't know why people aren't visiting. She probably didn't know about the visiting hours. And once I put it on paper, I suddenly got, my mother didn't abandon me. She died. Abandonment was a story my distorted mind made up as a child.
Khloé in Wonder Land
Grief, Guilt & the Gifts We Don’t Expect ft. David Kessler
Children's minds always think they're at fault or something's wrong.
Khloé in Wonder Land
Grief, Guilt & the Gifts We Don’t Expect ft. David Kessler
Oh, anger is my go-to emotion. Oh, believe me, I get angry. It's like one of my go-to emotions, but I try to really release it. My father was steeped in his addiction, didn't know how to be a parent, but oh my gosh, the biggest optimist. If I said to my father, I think I want to be an astronaut, he would go, well, which planet? He would never say, well, how's your eyesight?
Khloé in Wonder Land
Grief, Guilt & the Gifts We Don’t Expect ft. David Kessler
Do you think you'll get in? I mean, and I think I got some of it from him. I got a lot of other things from him. I wish I didn't, but I got a lot of good things from him too.
Khloé in Wonder Land
Grief, Guilt & the Gifts We Don’t Expect ft. David Kessler
Right. Yes. We confuse like, you know, at a certain point, optimism can become denial. Right. And I'll tell you, sometimes people can also distort religion and spirituality. I mean, what breaks my heart so many times is I'll hear a child say, I guess I didn't pray hard enough. Oh, that's so sad. And I try to really teach people, you know, that... the idea that sometimes healing isn't of the body.
Khloé in Wonder Land
Grief, Guilt & the Gifts We Don’t Expect ft. David Kessler
And we so internalize everything. I know. And with children, they're like puddle jumpers, just like you. They go into the pain, then they jump out back to school, they play, they go in, they go out, and they have to do grief their way. One of the things people often ask me that you already have mentioned here is, what's the goal of grief?
Khloé in Wonder Land
Grief, Guilt & the Gifts We Don’t Expect ft. David Kessler
It's to remember with more love than pain in your own time, in your own way, not anyone else's way, not the person who's telling you to move on or get over it, or why are you still in it? But in your time, in your way, you know, you mentioned the idea of some of the gifts that you got from your dad's death. I talk about that as meaning.
Khloé in Wonder Land
Grief, Guilt & the Gifts We Don’t Expect ft. David Kessler
And just like you said, people think like, oh, wait, how does something good happen? I always say, no matter what comes out of anyone's death, I'd rather have them back. That goes without saying. 100%, yes. But I know when my younger son died, he loved my work. And I had that moment that I thought, I live in this cute little neighborhood, these little small cute houses.
Khloé in Wonder Land
Grief, Guilt & the Gifts We Don’t Expect ft. David Kessler
And I pictured someday in the future, teenagers riding by my house and going, who lives in the haunted house? What's that? cobwebs all that and someone would go oh it's the grief expert and then one day his son died and he never came out again chloe i knew that could happen wow and you know i thought my son loved my work so much His death can constrict it or expand it. Yes.
Khloé in Wonder Land
Grief, Guilt & the Gifts We Don’t Expect ft. David Kessler
And all of us, after we've had any kind of grief, after we've gone through so much of the pain, so much of the hurt on our time, then have a decision to make. Right. Do we stay or do we begin to swim again? Does this event constrict us or expand us? And I love, you know, how things have expanded you and how you can get messy and show it. And, you know, I think we all need that in life.
Khloé in Wonder Land
Grief, Guilt & the Gifts We Don’t Expect ft. David Kessler
police officer. Oh no, I want to be a fireman. And I'm like, is death and grief available? I mean, no one thinks that, right? So it's a profession that chooses you. So she has to go to the hospital. We're there. You have to be 14 to visit. I'm 13. That was in the day when families were like a little bit of an interruption of the healing process. Spent a lot of time in the hospital lobby.
Khloé in Wonder Land
Grief, Guilt & the Gifts We Don’t Expect ft. David Kessler
So I'm going to get messier in your honor online a little bit more. But I want to let people know that, you know, one of the things people don't realize is all the colors of grief. People think it's happy, sad, angry. No, it's not. There's bitter. There's jealous. There's upset. There's good days. There's bad days. There's a million of them. You're right.
Khloé in Wonder Land
Grief, Guilt & the Gifts We Don’t Expect ft. David Kessler
No. I mean, people say to me like... My loved one there, my sister, someone died. So tell me, my brother, my mom, dad, how long are we going to grieve? And I always go, well, how long are they going to be dead? Right. If they're going to be dead for a long time, you're going to grieve for a long time, but hopefully with more love. When we talk, I feel your dad's love through this.
Khloé in Wonder Land
Grief, Guilt & the Gifts We Don’t Expect ft. David Kessler
One of the things I always say is it's talked about, Einstein, that energy can't be created or destroyed. Right. They say this all the time. And when your dad died, a part of you died with him. But a part of him lives on in you that replaced that part. So we're always still whole after people die because we have a part of them with us.
Khloé in Wonder Land
Grief, Guilt & the Gifts We Don’t Expect ft. David Kessler
And you all had different relationships with him.
Khloé in Wonder Land
Grief, Guilt & the Gifts We Don’t Expect ft. David Kessler
And I think it's fascinating. It is the place where psychology and religion, I think, coincide. Years ago, it was thought, let's help someone find closure. And we know now we don't close the book ever. No. And we learn to live with that loss. And now we talk about continuing connections, continuing bonds. I wore my dad's old antique watch today in honor of us talking about fathers. You know that.
Khloé in Wonder Land
Grief, Guilt & the Gifts We Don’t Expect ft. David Kessler
He still lives within me. And one of the things that was really shocking to me, this is the other side, is when my father was dying, he was just in such despair. And at one point, a day or two before, it shifted. And he seemed okay. And I said, what happened? And he said, your mother came to visit me. Oh, wow. And I'm going to be with her again.
Khloé in Wonder Land
Grief, Guilt & the Gifts We Don’t Expect ft. David Kessler
Doesn't that give you a little piece? And he said, you know, we're all going to be together again. And I did a lot of research on that, about this idea of how the dead come to greet the dying. Wow. And how... All religions, people, no matter who you are in the world, this experience happens. And I think that veil between life and death is thin and it's meaningful.
Khloé in Wonder Land
Grief, Guilt & the Gifts We Don’t Expect ft. David Kessler
And for us to just be a little more open, I mean, so many times we want proof, but I think religion tells us, spirituality tells us, and psychology now says, those bonds continue. You know, I always say, Don't give death any more power than it already has. It has the power to physically take our loved ones. It doesn't have the power to end their eternal life.
Khloé in Wonder Land
Grief, Guilt & the Gifts We Don’t Expect ft. David Kessler
Then, at a certain point, we're at our hotel across the way, and someone starts yelling, fire. Everyone runs out. We're all outside looking at this fire on the 18th floor. Fire trucks pulled up. I'm kind of a bored kid, so this is interesting at first. And then when they start to extend the ladders, shooting starts. It turns out it was an active shooter. It went on for hours and hours.
Khloé in Wonder Land
Grief, Guilt & the Gifts We Don’t Expect ft. David Kessler
It doesn't have the power to end our relationship and it doesn't have the power to end our love.
Khloé in Wonder Land
Grief, Guilt & the Gifts We Don’t Expect ft. David Kessler
It depends on the day. And this is a hard world to leave. So there's been times when I'm like, oh, yeah, if it happened, I'd be fine. And one of the things I really try to practice is enough. Am I enough? Can this be it? And yet I also know from being with so many dying people. We don't let go of this body easy. We want to stay. We want to be there for our loved ones.
Khloé in Wonder Land
Grief, Guilt & the Gifts We Don’t Expect ft. David Kessler
They never look ready, feel ready. So I think it is hard. But in terms of just fear of death, no. Like you, I'm like... What if we don't arrive into an emptiness, but instead we're in a fullness? Everyone we've ever loved and known is there with us. You know, what if birth isn't a beginning and death isn't an ending? When I've been with people who have died, there's an essence to them.
Khloé in Wonder Land
Grief, Guilt & the Gifts We Don’t Expect ft. David Kessler
Like, there's an essence I feel. And sometimes when you're with people who are dying, six months, a month, an hour, depending on if they were in a coma or whatever, you can feel they're kind of gone already. And when you're with someone who's died and you're with their body, they're gone. Whoever that was, that energy, that was a suit of clothes that we wore this lifetime.
Khloé in Wonder Land
Grief, Guilt & the Gifts We Don’t Expect ft. David Kessler
I've met people with near-death experience. I've also met a lot of people who were, you know, revived and, you know, sometimes they see the tunnel, sometimes they don't, and all those things. And what's fascinating to me is in all my years of this work and people sitting with people who visit as their dying relatives, it's always comforting. No one goes, oh, I don't want to go there.
Khloé in Wonder Land
Grief, Guilt & the Gifts We Don’t Expect ft. David Kessler
Sometimes they go, I don't want to go yet. Right. But it's really interesting that people seem to find peace even if it's in that last second. Mm-hmm.
Khloé in Wonder Land
Grief, Guilt & the Gifts We Don’t Expect ft. David Kessler
Oh my gosh. It's now considered one of the first mass shootings in the U.S., And I saw police officers and hotel guests killed. My father was desperately trying to get us back to the hospital. We finally get back. And then in a couple of days, my mother dies without me being able to be with her. I'm downstairs. And I even remember them bringing me upstairs to see her after she had died.
Khloé in Wonder Land
Grief, Guilt & the Gifts We Don’t Expect ft. David Kessler
Absolutely. Because I felt like, oh my gosh, you know, the end of life, the end. And I had my own religious and spiritual beliefs. But when I did my research and writing around how the dead come to greet the dying, and it was interesting, the people that I interviewed were doctors, nurses, social workers, paramedics.
Khloé in Wonder Land
Grief, Guilt & the Gifts We Don’t Expect ft. David Kessler
Because I didn't want anyone to sort of dispute that about all their stories, who in the corner of the room, their dad was there, their mom, someone came to greet them. We don't die alone. That's so beautiful. We don't, you know, whether it's their religious belief happens. And no one got anyone killed. That upset them. You don't see an enemy and all that.
Khloé in Wonder Land
Grief, Guilt & the Gifts We Don’t Expect ft. David Kessler
There was actually one person who she had been a victim of domestic violence. And I remember when she was dying, she was so afraid that the person who hurt her was going to be there waiting because he had already died. And she died so peacefully. You know, there's something about it's only the love then. It's only the love we're with.
Khloé in Wonder Land
Grief, Guilt & the Gifts We Don’t Expect ft. David Kessler
It has made me appreciate life more.
Khloé in Wonder Land
Grief, Guilt & the Gifts We Don’t Expect ft. David Kessler
I feel more present. There's times I'm in a really bad space and I have to see someone or go online or do something and it takes me to a higher place. It is my meditation when I'm serving someone. And We're all going to experience this. And it makes me take more joy in life. This is a world we've all been given. And when we're stressed and in trouble, I'm like, okay, feel it, enjoy it.
Khloé in Wonder Land
Grief, Guilt & the Gifts We Don’t Expect ft. David Kessler
This is what stress feels like on planet Earth. And I think it's not about stress. Being so heavenly, you're no earthly good. It's like, oh, this is this world. This is what happens. This is how we live here. Oh, this is what a bad day feels like. Let me enjoy a bad day on planet Earth without trying to change it.
Khloé in Wonder Land
Grief, Guilt & the Gifts We Don’t Expect ft. David Kessler
One of the things when I work with people in grief, I often work through a lot of the what ifs. What if I had done this? What if I had tried this? And you can learn this with people in life. You don't even need to die. All the what ifs. And then I go through the what ifs And I help them understand that even if they did the what if, the person would have still died.
Khloé in Wonder Land
Grief, Guilt & the Gifts We Don’t Expect ft. David Kessler
Or they would have still had taken that action or had their addiction or did their relationship the way that whatever it is or the job. And I eventually get them to cross out on a piece of paper the what if and write even if. Even if I had been there more my dad still would have died. Right. It's just that reality and to just be with this thing that we can't accept.
Khloé in Wonder Land
Grief, Guilt & the Gifts We Don’t Expect ft. David Kessler
If it's your time, it's your time. And picture this. If I was sitting in a restaurant And I was sitting there alone and there was a couple next to me. It's two people talking. And one said they just had a horrible loss, whatever the loss may be. And the other person was like, you need to get it together. You need to do all that. You need to, this is self pity. I'm tired of your pity party.
Khloé in Wonder Land
Grief, Guilt & the Gifts We Don’t Expect ft. David Kessler
I'd be like, excuse me. She's just had a horrible loss. She needs kindness. Yet the person, we have this hallmark version that in grief, we're going to be so kind to everyone and to ourselves. Nope. We're brutal to ourselves after loss.
Khloé in Wonder Land
Grief, Guilt & the Gifts We Don’t Expect ft. David Kessler
Now, here's a tip for that.
Khloé in Wonder Land
Grief, Guilt & the Gifts We Don’t Expect ft. David Kessler
If someone's going, if only I had done this. And what if I had done that? Our tendency out of love is to go, don't talk that way. You couldn't have done anything. But instead to go, tell me about it. Play it out. Let me hear it. Because people get so shut down and they don't get to talk about it. So sometimes we need time to explore the what ifs and have our detective hat and be in the pain.
Khloé in Wonder Land
Grief, Guilt & the Gifts We Don’t Expect ft. David Kessler
And what would that have done? How would that have helped? And here's the really important one. Well, if I had done this, saw them more, been there, gotten there sooner, then I go with, do you think that's really true?
Khloé in Wonder Land
Grief, Guilt & the Gifts We Don’t Expect ft. David Kessler
And I had been so upset about all the rules that by that point I remember seeing her hand and so wanting to hold it one last time. I came away from all of that
Khloé in Wonder Land
Grief, Guilt & the Gifts We Don’t Expect ft. David Kessler
And sometimes I'll say to someone, someone will go, if I'd gotten to the hospital, after they fully explored it, I'll say, I wonder if we can always save people by getting to the hospital on time. I wonder, does that always play out that way?
Khloé in Wonder Land
Grief, Guilt & the Gifts We Don’t Expect ft. David Kessler
And that's our inner wisdom we have to get to.
Khloé in Wonder Land
Grief, Guilt & the Gifts We Don’t Expect ft. David Kessler
Absolutely. And every grief has a little nuance. I mean, someone dies, you're never seeing them again. Right. Right. A divorce? Wait, they can be on earth rejecting you every single day, not wanting you. It kind of feels like the grief that can keep giving. One of the things when I talk to people who are dealing with divorce and breakups is
Khloé in Wonder Land
Grief, Guilt & the Gifts We Don’t Expect ft. David Kessler
we're grieving the person who's left but we also have this distorted thinking that the person that's divorcing you or leaving you or with someone else or acting out was your soul mate and so they have this grief of the relationship ending but also the grief of losing their soul mate And I remind them, I don't believe your soulmate is the one who leaves. I think your soulmate's the one who stays.
Khloé in Wonder Land
Grief, Guilt & the Gifts We Don’t Expect ft. David Kessler
Right. So I think that's a challenge in the relationship once. Betrayal, a huge grief, the loss of trust, the loss of security. Job loss, the loss of pay. You know, there's so many. Abuse, the loss of self. And loss, you know, these, luckily, those griefs, we can bring ourself back to life. We can find ourselves again.
Khloé in Wonder Land
Grief, Guilt & the Gifts We Don’t Expect ft. David Kessler
number one realizing there was no one there to help me back then and I've kind of tried to grow into the person who could have helped me yes and I also wanted to make end of life and grief better for people I mean we're all going to go through it it's like the death rate's a hundred percent right we're all going to go through it it's inevitable and we don't talk about it mm-hmm
Khloé in Wonder Land
Grief, Guilt & the Gifts We Don’t Expect ft. David Kessler
Well, and we think there's something important, some loyalty in the pain. And also our old wounds show up in grief. Like you would think when you're overwhelmed in grief, well, why on earth would my old wounds show up right now? I mean, I'm overwhelmed. And yet old wounds come up, our old trauma comes up in stress. And grief is clearly a time of stress, divorce, death, huge stressful times.
Khloé in Wonder Land
Grief, Guilt & the Gifts We Don’t Expect ft. David Kessler
May I ask you about something that I saw recently and I thought about in your life and your experience? I think about that get-together that you had with Lamar. Yes. I looked at that and go, when people go, she shut down. I was like, that's grief. Oh, I did shut down. But that's grief. That's traumatic grief.
Khloé in Wonder Land
Grief, Guilt & the Gifts We Don’t Expect ft. David Kessler
My heart went out to you. Oh, thank you. Can I tell you a bit about that from just the outside and see if it fits? No, totally. First of all, you're trying to do repair work. and you're trying to do repair work with this person who was the love of your life. And everything went so badly out of your control, despite your best efforts. And here's when I looked at you and watched that.
Khloé in Wonder Land
Grief, Guilt & the Gifts We Don’t Expect ft. David Kessler
I saw the moment he was late, I thought, this is not going to be good for her. And I thought, talk about post-traumatic stress. that your mind has to go into, probably as it did lots of times with him. Exactly. He's late. What's going on? Is he okay? What happened? And so it has to go into protection mode. Right. It had to go there. It's unconscious. That's why it's so out of body now. Right.
Khloé in Wonder Land
Grief, Guilt & the Gifts We Don’t Expect ft. David Kessler
Because you were just feeling, oh my gosh, have I lost him again? Did he die again? This is what happened. How many days, nights and all that? Now, those are his wounds. If I was talking to him, I'd be having a different talk or both of you together. But this is about your reaction to I felt like got a little overjudged and that, you know, here you are thrown back into it.
Khloé in Wonder Land
Grief, Guilt & the Gifts We Don’t Expect ft. David Kessler
It's also a moment I thought you're really seeing clearly. You're going, oh, this isn't the person I imagine. This is who he really is. Let me really meet him. And it was really hard. And I think we don't talk about those griefs around those relationships. You must have had so much grief day and night. And just as someone who's dealt with addiction and my own son dying of it, it's brutal.
Khloé in Wonder Land
Grief, Guilt & the Gifts We Don’t Expect ft. David Kessler
And there's no, there's no happy place you get to.
Khloé in Wonder Land
Grief, Guilt & the Gifts We Don’t Expect ft. David Kessler
How much of your relationship were you doing the work? where you doing a lot of work to help him in his addiction. And here he arrives and you're doing the work again. Now my heart goes out to him. He's got a horrible disease that is a lot for him.
Khloé in Wonder Land
Grief, Guilt & the Gifts We Don’t Expect ft. David Kessler
But when we talk about grief, going back to what I said about grief must be witnessed, even in those moments that you said it was four months of misery. Yeah, I don't remember that. oh, your grief's not being witnessed in that moment. Right.
Khloé in Wonder Land
Grief, Guilt & the Gifts We Don’t Expect ft. David Kessler
Of course. Of course it did.
Khloé in Wonder Land
Grief, Guilt & the Gifts We Don’t Expect ft. David Kessler
Right. And it's a pain. You know, I often say I'm talking to people about what our great grandparents knew, how to be with the dying, how to be with people in grief, how to talk about it. You know, if you want to see death now, it's kind of. in a TV show or movies. And what do we see there? We see the first episode, someone's diagnosed or dying. Second episode, person cries.
Khloé in Wonder Land
Grief, Guilt & the Gifts We Don’t Expect ft. David Kessler
Some I was like, I'm... Because you were angry and hurt and thrown into... An old situation. I mean, we all have this idea of what's today going to be like. And you expected him, hopefully, on time and you're reconnecting and here's your stuff. And it's so different than what you expected.
Khloé in Wonder Land
Grief, Guilt & the Gifts We Don’t Expect ft. David Kessler
I have so much compassion for you both, for you, Alla, because it's two horribly wounded people trying to do repair work. And I think one of the things we miss in life sometimes, first of all, in grief, it's a time when people close to us cannot get it and feel like strangers, and strangers can feel like friends and family. Right.
Khloé in Wonder Land
Grief, Guilt & the Gifts We Don’t Expect ft. David Kessler
We often want the person that hurt us to do the repair work and it's going to be done by others. That's the openness to try to find to allow that repair work to come in the next time there's a Similar but different situation. And you did the best you could and so did he. And I'm like, bravo for both of you for showing up and just trying it.
Khloé in Wonder Land
Grief, Guilt & the Gifts We Don’t Expect ft. David Kessler
Okay, hang on. which had to be a huge trigger oh major huge trigger which like the moment it happened i'm like oh my gosh this is going to go bad just because of the lateness and then when i heard like 20 minutes 40 i'm like oh not going well no all right one more thing here you said how proud you are of him and you lit up with how proud you are of him can you be that proud of you
Khloé in Wonder Land
Grief, Guilt & the Gifts We Don’t Expect ft. David Kessler
And, you know, your protection systems needed to kick in. And they did. That's how you had to survive.
Khloé in Wonder Land
Grief, Guilt & the Gifts We Don’t Expect ft. David Kessler
That's how you had to survive those moments. One of the things about grief and loss and breakups and divorce and betrayals and death and everything is we continue. We survive.
Khloé in Wonder Land
Grief, Guilt & the Gifts We Don’t Expect ft. David Kessler
We're very resilient. I always say we're resilient and fragile all at the same time.
Khloé in Wonder Land
Grief, Guilt & the Gifts We Don’t Expect ft. David Kessler
Yes. Okay. And here's why you're still trying to process them. And so you're living in that reality. And what we do is unknowingly, we take the bricks of our last relationship to try to build the next ones. And none of us want to do that. So it is about what do you think? Because I think there's some grief work there still. What do you think there is around your past relationships?
Khloé in Wonder Land
Grief, Guilt & the Gifts We Don’t Expect ft. David Kessler
Because I had so much abandonment in mind. What do you think? that story is that needs to be healed. For you to just go out there as an open book, whether you go out there next week or next year or in 10 years, but you arrive as an open book, what story is saying, please heal me?
Khloé in Wonder Land
Grief, Guilt & the Gifts We Don’t Expect ft. David Kessler
And those choices, and I'm sorry to say this because I know some of them were really painful, were the right choices that you needed to go through to get to the next place. And so you want to make sure We choose people. And here's the thing. We go, we're attracted to the wrong people or we bring the wrong people. It's like, let me not choose familiar. There's something familiar about that.
Khloé in Wonder Land
Grief, Guilt & the Gifts We Don’t Expect ft. David Kessler
I got to tell you, I was a attractor of people subconsciously that I knew were going to leave. Let me tell you.
Khloé in Wonder Land
Grief, Guilt & the Gifts We Don’t Expect ft. David Kessler
Oh, my gosh. I learned if I went into a party and there's one charismatic person that I heard, oh, my gosh, you know, tricky. I am like, oh, I got to go talk to them. I mean, I was going to change them. I saw their potential, all that stuff. Shockingly, by doing the grief work. So you're willing to go deep for a second? Sure. All right. I don't know that this is true, but it was true for me.
Khloé in Wonder Land
Grief, Guilt & the Gifts We Don’t Expect ft. David Kessler
Third episode, back to life. Right. And grief has a longer shadow than that. Yes, it does.
Khloé in Wonder Land
Grief, Guilt & the Gifts We Don’t Expect ft. David Kessler
There is a grief around my mother that I thought needed to be repaired. by other strong women. And eventually, instead of doing the relationship repair work, I had to do the grief repair work. And the grief repair work was to get this, and this is what was so hard. And I didn't even think I consciously was doing it in my whole life.
Khloé in Wonder Land
Grief, Guilt & the Gifts We Don’t Expect ft. David Kessler
No matter where I looked, how I looked, what they looked like, how strong, how familiar, they're never gonna be my mother. I had to really grieve. She was the one and only in that time span. And I wonder if there's a part of you, and only you know this, that like, I have to really just go so deep into this father that I deserved for the rest of my life.
Khloé in Wonder Land
Grief, Guilt & the Gifts We Don’t Expect ft. David Kessler
And to just know that I could meet a million great guys. No one's ever going to be him.
Khloé in Wonder Land
Grief, Guilt & the Gifts We Don’t Expect ft. David Kessler
I'm not talking about characteristics. Tell me. I'm talking about filling a hole. I could see that. Here's where it gets really crazy. Filling the hole is accepting. It's never going to be filled.
Khloé in Wonder Land
Grief, Guilt & the Gifts We Don’t Expect ft. David Kessler
There is no, let me point out the bright side, let me get you to a better place. Let me let you have your experience. And I don't know what it's like for you, but I'm just going to show up and be with you. One of the things about grief and loss and breakups and divorce and betrayals and death and everything is we continue. We survive. We're very resilient. I always say we're resilient and fragile.
Khloé in Wonder Land
Grief, Guilt & the Gifts We Don’t Expect ft. David Kessler
And we often know that consciously, but it's an inner work that, So how do you do that inner work? I think it's just starts with this awareness. Okay. It's just that awareness of, oh gosh, I like that person. And I miss my dad all the time. And I'm never going to find my dad in the world again. And let me just show up fully for this person.
Khloé in Wonder Land
Grief, Guilt & the Gifts We Don’t Expect ft. David Kessler
Because there's a familiarity in people that's not characteristics. That's what's so hard. And the thing is, sometimes when we've lost someone through death, we seek out subconsciously people who are not predictable so that this time they'll stay. That's really fascinating. I saw that in your eyes. Yeah. I saw that hit.
Khloé in Wonder Land
Grief, Guilt & the Gifts We Don’t Expect ft. David Kessler
Maybe this one will stay the way my dad should.
Khloé in Wonder Land
Grief, Guilt & the Gifts We Don’t Expect ft. David Kessler
and of course your dad couldn't yeah but none of this is logical it's matters of the heart right do you think it's irresponsible to tell your kids like I tell my kids all the time like I'm never going to leave you do you think that's irresponsible to say here's the thing the moment there's been a death in the family or grandparent kids immediately go to mommy are you going to die and the answer is yes honey
Khloé in Wonder Land
Grief, Guilt & the Gifts We Don’t Expect ft. David Kessler
Someday I'm going to die. Yeah. But I'm doing so many things to have a really long life because I want to have a long life with you and I want you to have a long life. That's why I do this and this and this. It's all so we can have so much time.
Khloé in Wonder Land
Grief, Guilt & the Gifts We Don’t Expect ft. David Kessler
I think it's partly religion. I think with that, we've lost rituals. Religion has wonderful rituals, and its spirituality has wonderful rituals. There's also changes that happened in the 40s. Illness moved into the hospital. It used to be in our home. So I think we lost a sense of this part of life.
Khloé in Wonder Land
Grief, Guilt & the Gifts We Don’t Expect ft. David Kessler
Okay. Because at some point they're going to make the calculation of your dad died at this age and someday you're going to hit that age. Right. Right. And then you're going to have to reassure them and yourself that you're going to outlive his lifetime.
Khloé in Wonder Land
Grief, Guilt & the Gifts We Don’t Expect ft. David Kessler
And kids are often the forgotten griever, so it's so good that when we have those conversations, people will say to me, oh, the goldfish died, this happened, the pet died, we told them the dog ran away. I'm like, what's your plan? What's your plan to teach them about grief? And I'll say the moment grief happens in our children's life, someone dies, that's the moment to teach them.
Khloé in Wonder Land
Grief, Guilt & the Gifts We Don’t Expect ft. David Kessler
And I think the hardest thing is to be honest. Right. You know, no one wants to be honest with kids. We want them to be happy.
Khloé in Wonder Land
Grief, Guilt & the Gifts We Don’t Expect ft. David Kessler
Thanks. The website is grief.com. And on it, there's so many resources there for people to get. There's groups, there's videos you can watch. I'm also trying to post things on social media. It's I am David Kessler. David Kessler was already taken, so I had to be I am David Kessler. And just to give people resources to talk about these things. I love that I do the books.
Khloé in Wonder Land
Grief, Guilt & the Gifts We Don’t Expect ft. David Kessler
I have one on the afterlife that I mentioned to you before. There's also just ones about finding meaning and getting through the pain and chiseling through that. And Just to know there's help out there. For everyone, there's help. So grief.com.
Khloé in Wonder Land
Grief, Guilt & the Gifts We Don’t Expect ft. David Kessler
And let me just tell you, here's the thing that I think is surprising about what you just said is when people think like about grief groups, I do, they think, Oh, is it six people on chairs online? No, It's hundreds and hundreds. And the thing that people don't realize is it helps so much with the loneliness and we find ourselves in each other's stories.
Khloé in Wonder Land
Grief, Guilt & the Gifts We Don’t Expect ft. David Kessler
Some people talk up front, but some people in tender hearts are just in the background listening. And we grow and learn. And thank you again for doing this. I want to leave you with one small thing that I hope will encourage people. What we run from pursues us and what we face transforms us. Amen.
Khloé in Wonder Land
Grief, Guilt & the Gifts We Don’t Expect ft. David Kessler
I think COVID got us talking about it. Like, how did you not talk about what was happening? We had to all talk about the loneliness, the isolation, the collective grief. It wasn't just one of us. It happened to all of us. So there's all those feelings that came up that I think. finally are getting it talked about more and more.
Khloé in Wonder Land
Grief, Guilt & the Gifts We Don’t Expect ft. David Kessler
And I'm so glad, you know, I think the other thing that COVID helped with is we often think about death and grief as those two are the only grief. But I always say grief is a change you didn't want. Mm-hmm. So a breakup is the death of that relationship in the romantic form. A divorce is the death of a marriage. A job loss is the death of that paycheck with those people.
Khloé in Wonder Land
Grief, Guilt & the Gifts We Don’t Expect ft. David Kessler
In COVID, we collectively lost our freedom, our contact, our touching one another. So we live with so many types of grief and loss. And I am so glad we're finally talking about it more.
Khloé in Wonder Land
Grief, Guilt & the Gifts We Don’t Expect ft. David Kessler
Right. and it's it's interesting that people always want to know which is the worst grief is it the death of a child is it a murder is it this is it the loss of a you know a marriage where the person's still rejecting you and all those things and what i said to my friend in that moment is she's 20 years old her marriage got cancelled because of covet she couldn't have her wedding
Khloé in Wonder Land
Grief, Guilt & the Gifts We Don’t Expect ft. David Kessler
For her, that is her worst loss. Right. She hasn't had the other things. And I think we, too, get into a mindset of trying to compare. And yet it's about our experience. And no two people grieve alike. No. Every grief is so completely unique, like our fingerprint. And so to understand that when we're comparing, we're in our mind and we don't have a broken mind. We have a broken heart.
Khloé in Wonder Land
Grief, Guilt & the Gifts We Don’t Expect ft. David Kessler
I think talking about it. You know, sometimes people will say, my friend had this horrible loss and they're so isolated. And I often think you might be isolating them. And we isolate them when we don't see the world as they do. Like, what's the world like through your eyes, through my eyes? Everyone's got a different world, especially when it comes to grief.
Khloé in Wonder Land
Grief, Guilt & the Gifts We Don’t Expect ft. David Kessler
And so it's that idea of listening and being present. And one of the things I don't think we understand is grief must be witnessed. we need to witness without fixing. You know, there is no, let me point out the bright side, let me get you to a better place, but let me let you have your experience. And I don't know what it's like for you, but I'm just going to show up and be with you.
Khloé in Wonder Land
Grief, Guilt & the Gifts We Don’t Expect ft. David Kessler
None of this is logical. It's matters of the heart.
Khloé in Wonder Land
Grief, Guilt & the Gifts We Don’t Expect ft. David Kessler
And you're trying to find the right words and your scenario and situation is so true of what happened to you. It's not what people said that you remember, it's how they were there, that they showed up. And the other thing you mentioned that I just want to point out is... It's actually been proven with science. There's a thing called grief brain, brain fog that you get.
Khloé in Wonder Land
Grief, Guilt & the Gifts We Don’t Expect ft. David Kessler
When we're in grief, we can't focus. We can't concentrate. We can't remember. And that's why we need people in our lives to show up. One of the things we say to grievers is, what do you need? I don't know what I need. I'm barely getting through the day. I didn't make a list. I didn't think they were going to die, you know?
Khloé in Wonder Land
Grief, Guilt & the Gifts We Don’t Expect ft. David Kessler
Can I ask you? Of course. So you mentioned it was at 19 when he died. Grief is what's inside of us. Trauma and grief are what's inside of us. It's not really about the details. It's how we experience them. How did you experience it at that time?
The Dr. John Delony Show
Grief Expert: Why Grief Demands a Witness (With David Kessler)
And the fact that she knows she's going to keep changing and growing and that there's not one state.
The Dr. John Delony Show
Grief Expert: Why Grief Demands a Witness (With David Kessler)
Grief demands a witness.
The Dr. John Delony Show
Grief Expert: Why Grief Demands a Witness (With David Kessler)
Yeah. First of all, you mentioned kids. I have to just start with children. Mm-hmm. We are a grief-illiterate world in general. We are unbelievably grief-illiterate when it comes to our children. I mean, people will tell me, you know, oh, you know, the other day the goldfish died and, you know, our six-year-old was so sad. And I go, what did you say?
The Dr. John Delony Show
Grief Expert: Why Grief Demands a Witness (With David Kessler)
And they'll go, oh, we flushed it down the toilet and we told them it swam to the ocean. And I'm like, you missed an opportunity. Well, I don't want to inflict pain. And I went, let me tell you, you are teaching them that if you cross the street without looking, pain will happen. And you want to spare them that pain by giving them information about the experience. Your child, 100%.
The Dr. John Delony Show
Grief Expert: Why Grief Demands a Witness (With David Kessler)
Like the stats are in. A hundred percent is going to go through loss this lifetime. Correct. They're going to go through breakups. They're going to go through stuff. They're going to go through loss. Boyfriends, girlfriends break up with them. Stuff's going to happen. And you're not going to teach about that. You're going to skip.
The Dr. John Delony Show
Grief Expert: Why Grief Demands a Witness (With David Kessler)
Well, when they're older, I'm like, what are you going to do when they're older? Sacrifice a dog? Right, right, right. I mean, people go, but when do I begin teaching? When the goldfish dies. Right now. When the neighbor dies. When grandpa, that is the moment. Yes.
The Dr. John Delony Show
Grief Expert: Why Grief Demands a Witness (With David Kessler)
Those rituals.
The Dr. John Delony Show
Grief Expert: Why Grief Demands a Witness (With David Kessler)
I always say when people go, I don't understand that. I'll go, think of it this way. When we have a birthday party, we get together, and happy birthday is another way we say, I love you. And now that grandpa's died or the dog died, we gather again at the end to say, I love you. That gathering, goodbye, is another way we say, I love you.
The Dr. John Delony Show
Grief Expert: Why Grief Demands a Witness (With David Kessler)
And I'll tell you, I don't know that I've talked about this on a podcast before, It just came up for me, so I'll say it. When my son died, my older son, Richard, I knew this was going to happen. And I have an amazing goddaughter who is... The epitome of elegance. I mean, she went to school in London. She is naturally elegant in a way I will like. When I'm with her, I'm like, which fork?
The Dr. John Delony Show
Grief Expert: Why Grief Demands a Witness (With David Kessler)
No one's ever used those words to describe me. She was always so elegant. When my younger son David died, we're at the funeral. We're done. And all of a sudden, the cemetery folks descend with the shovels, and they're going to, you know, pack the dirt on the grave. And of course, my older son Richard goes, no, no, no, no, no. That's me. He's going to do it.
The Dr. John Delony Show
Grief Expert: Why Grief Demands a Witness (With David Kessler)
And then, like, I knew that would be him. And then in her most gorgeous black dress, my goddaughter picked up a shovel. And I'm like, that's like a ritual that's like unforgettable. You know? And it's that saying goodbye. And you wouldn't think shoveling is a way to say goodbye and I love you. And one thing just to say, just since we're here about pet loss,
The Dr. John Delony Show
Grief Expert: Why Grief Demands a Witness (With David Kessler)
After David died, I don't know, probably eight, nine months later, sweet dog of 17 years.
The Dr. John Delony Show
Grief Expert: Why Grief Demands a Witness (With David Kessler)
And people want to go, well, clearly that didn't count after David's death, or which was the worst? And I'm like... Folks, there is no worst in this. These are two horrible events. They are two loves. I don't need to find a hierarchy so you can organize this in your brain. These are horrible events. A divorce is a horrible event for the person getting divorced. Betrayal is. Pet loss is.
The Dr. John Delony Show
Grief Expert: Why Grief Demands a Witness (With David Kessler)
If the grief is real, if the love is real, the grief is real. There is no hierarchy in loss. Let that go.
The Dr. John Delony Show
Grief Expert: Why Grief Demands a Witness (With David Kessler)
I started there.
The Dr. John Delony Show
Grief Expert: Why Grief Demands a Witness (With David Kessler)
I mean, listen.
The Dr. John Delony Show
Grief Expert: Why Grief Demands a Witness (With David Kessler)
Emotions need motion.
The Dr. John Delony Show
Grief Expert: Why Grief Demands a Witness (With David Kessler)
Emotions need motion. I'll tell you, we feel bad every time we're giving tips. We say, you got to go walk. And it's like, we go, we can't recommend walking again. And then a study comes out that says how walking is so amazing. And we're like, we feel like simplistic, like for God's sakes, we can't keep saying walk.
The Dr. John Delony Show
Grief Expert: Why Grief Demands a Witness (With David Kessler)
When the pandemic hit, people were like, you got to move online. And I was like, I don't know that emotions translate. And one of my buddies said, have you ever seen a movie? Oh, gosh, yes. Oh, all right, yeah. Now, here's the thing. On a Zoom call, I see your face just like this. I mean, I wish I could tell you. I mean, look, if you came in and you... smelled bad, I wouldn't know it on a Zoom.
The Dr. John Delony Show
Grief Expert: Why Grief Demands a Witness (With David Kessler)
So, but it needs, and just that, this workbook is taking the pain out of you and putting it on the paper. Yes. Let yourself see your pain on the paper.
The Dr. John Delony Show
Grief Expert: Why Grief Demands a Witness (With David Kessler)
Correct. You know, that is really sitting with the imperfections of life. Okay. We wanted a perfect marriage. That's gone. That's gone. Right. That's gone. Okay. And, you know, whether there's a million analogies out there, whether it's the broken vase. Sure. That, you know, the vase can be put back together. Whether it's a broken bone becomes stronger after the break.
The Dr. John Delony Show
Grief Expert: Why Grief Demands a Witness (With David Kessler)
You know, I, this is a really hard one. would I rather have a perfect good marriage or a real one? And I think I opt for perfect good, but that doesn't seem to be possible. I mean, we're all going to have— We're going to hurt people. Like, listen, everyone I know struggles with something. I promise you, everyone who has the perfect marriage, there's something there. Doesn't.
The Dr. John Delony Show
Grief Expert: Why Grief Demands a Witness (With David Kessler)
You know, and look, it may not be the biggest infidelity, but there's something there. You know, all relationships, it's all pretty imperfect. And when we can allow that, and it kind of goes back to, you know, like I need to keep up with the Joneses. No, you don't. No, you don't. It's all kind of imperfect to begin with. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so it is the experience of life.
The Dr. John Delony Show
Grief Expert: Why Grief Demands a Witness (With David Kessler)
I mean, I always try to opt for authentic over good. Hmm. Or over great. We think we'd like great.
The Dr. John Delony Show
Grief Expert: Why Grief Demands a Witness (With David Kessler)
And I remember finally saying to this producer, and she changed my life. I said, why do you never choose me? And she said to me, because you're the grief expert. And I said, I don't understand. And she goes, David, before we get to the pitch you're making, I really like you. And you don't understand, we don't want to know the grief expert.
The Dr. John Delony Show
Grief Expert: Why Grief Demands a Witness (With David Kessler)
We want to sit down and have a beer with our buddy that just happens to know a lot about loss. And when you can let go of the illusion that you're our expert, we'll connect with you. Oh my gosh, what a favor she did for me. Yeah. Because she was really saying, because I was like early in my career, she was like, dude, take the suit off. Let it go. Like, just be you.
The Dr. John Delony Show
Grief Expert: Why Grief Demands a Witness (With David Kessler)
But every other thing, I get every little expression. And here's the thing, you know, people go, when they hear there's a grief group, they go, oh, I don't want to be online with six people. I'm like, no, no, there's hundreds. There's hundreds. And the shocking thing about it is there's some people who are like, hey, I got a question. I went,
The Dr. John Delony Show
Grief Expert: Why Grief Demands a Witness (With David Kessler)
It's a huge question. Our mind would always rather be guilty than helpless. You want to blame... So it's about power. Everything on that moment. Someone died because of that moment. The betrayal happened because of that moment. Whatever. You know, that was the moment... Most moments are complex with a lot of different factors.
The Dr. John Delony Show
Grief Expert: Why Grief Demands a Witness (With David Kessler)
Now, for your one moment, if I was working with that person in the one moment, we would talk about the decisions you made were probably out of your wounds. Doesn't excuse you. Doesn't let you off the hook from anything. They were out of your wounds. They were out of your fears. They were out of the lowest part of you.
The Dr. John Delony Show
Grief Expert: Why Grief Demands a Witness (With David Kessler)
you know, you've made mistakes, but so have I. And so that's where we have to begin. And then we also have to begin forgiveness.
The Dr. John Delony Show
Grief Expert: Why Grief Demands a Witness (With David Kessler)
It's a lot of work. I often say forgiveness starts with a 30-day practice. Yeah. Like people are like, I thought it and it didn't work. I'm like, that's not how forgiveness works. No, I use that word all the time.
The Dr. John Delony Show
Grief Expert: Why Grief Demands a Witness (With David Kessler)
I have so much in here about guilt.
The Dr. John Delony Show
Grief Expert: Why Grief Demands a Witness (With David Kessler)
There's like four different exercises I take. It's the biggest chunk of the book.
The Dr. John Delony Show
Grief Expert: Why Grief Demands a Witness (With David Kessler)
And people can go right to this book. They don't have to have bought the original. They can go right to this.
The Dr. John Delony Show
Grief Expert: Why Grief Demands a Witness (With David Kessler)
Yeah, what'd I say? God, what did I say?
The Dr. John Delony Show
Grief Expert: Why Grief Demands a Witness (With David Kessler)
And the idea that, like, it is heartbreaking that they betrayed you in that affair, that night, those years, whatever it is. Ooh, it's equally heartbreaking that you betray yourself every day. God, pisses me off. And you replay it. You replay it. No one betrays me like I betray myself. Yeah. Now, here's the thing about this.
The Dr. John Delony Show
Grief Expert: Why Grief Demands a Witness (With David Kessler)
You've asked a question yesterday, like, let's have, you know. But there's other people who are in the back, have never turned their Zoom on. They've never, you know, you can be anonymous or you can be in the front row. And one of the things that's shocking about it is I do topics, we do check-ins, and I do one-on-ones.
The Dr. John Delony Show
Grief Expert: Why Grief Demands a Witness (With David Kessler)
You control how long you stay there. That's it. How long you linger. I'll give you another example. A woman said to me, David, it's been five years. I cannot get the picture out of my mind of my child in the casket. And I go... Of course. Of course you can't. Of course you can't. But it doesn't have to be where you live. I said, how often do you picture it? And she goes, every time my phone rings.
The Dr. John Delony Show
Grief Expert: Why Grief Demands a Witness (With David Kessler)
And it was her screensaver. Oh, gosh. And I was like, oh, dear one. Yeah. Dear one. There's some help here. There's some hope, dear one. That's the you're keeping that horrific moment that does not define your child. Their death does not define them. So we have control over the images on our phone and the images in our mind. We have control.
The Dr. John Delony Show
Grief Expert: Why Grief Demands a Witness (With David Kessler)
I can't stay committed to the betrayal.
The Dr. John Delony Show
Grief Expert: Why Grief Demands a Witness (With David Kessler)
And that's the grace. And that's the grace. It's the grace. And it's your only shot. At a healthy relationship. We know how many of us take the bricks of the ruined moment in the relationship and try to use those bricks to rebuild the next relationship. Excavate and start over, man.
The Dr. John Delony Show
Grief Expert: Why Grief Demands a Witness (With David Kessler)
Or I can see she just had a baby. Yeah. I can watch she just had a baby. There's new life. Absolutely horrible death and there's new life. And I want to be present for both. I want to grieve fully and live fully. Some of us know how to attend to the grieving and not the living. Some of us know how to live and not attend the grief. I want to know how to do both.
The Dr. John Delony Show
Grief Expert: Why Grief Demands a Witness (With David Kessler)
And in the one-on-ones, it's me and that person, and hundreds of people are watching it. They don't get seen in that moment. We find each other in each other's stories. That's it. And we find our healing in each other's stories.
The Dr. John Delony Show
Grief Expert: Why Grief Demands a Witness (With David Kessler)
You too. Thank you. It's my honor, man. You're one of my people I like. I love watching you. I love listening to the podcast.
The Dr. John Delony Show
Grief Expert: Why Grief Demands a Witness (With David Kessler)
Thank you. I agree.
The Dr. John Delony Show
Grief Expert: Why Grief Demands a Witness (With David Kessler)
I mean, I get tons of emails of people who go, oh my gosh, that person asked the question I didn't even know was the question I had that was the one I needed for my healing. Yeah. I would have never even thought to ask that. And they did. And you went there. And you healed them. And I go, I didn't heal them. They healed them. And you found your healing in them. And then in yourself.
The Dr. John Delony Show
Grief Expert: Why Grief Demands a Witness (With David Kessler)
So I think it does work. It does work. Excellent. I think it does work.
The Dr. John Delony Show
Grief Expert: Why Grief Demands a Witness (With David Kessler)
And I am never going to like be face-to-face with people in Australia and New Zealand and the UK and, you know, all over the US. And it's like such, and boy, let me tell you, when there's like, sometimes I'll do these free online events. We have 40,000 people.
The Dr. John Delony Show
Grief Expert: Why Grief Demands a Witness (With David Kessler)
You talk about how universal grief is, that like I speak the same language. Wait, you're in rural Alaska? You haven't seen another person in weeks? And yet we're connected. You hurt too.
The Dr. John Delony Show
Grief Expert: Why Grief Demands a Witness (With David Kessler)
Let's get food.
The Dr. John Delony Show
Grief Expert: Why Grief Demands a Witness (With David Kessler)
Look, I tell people, like, if there's an amazing grief group down the block at your church, you don't need us. Right. And I'll tell you, grief is overwhelming and exhausting. Yes. That it's like, people are like, oh no, I need the church group, I need your group, and I need my counselor, and I need my clergy. Like, and it's still barely enough to hold me together, you know?
The Dr. John Delony Show
Grief Expert: Why Grief Demands a Witness (With David Kessler)
And people in those groups, the first question I ask, you come on, you start to talk, and I go, how long has your loved one been dead? And I tell the group, and here's why I'm asking, there is no timeline in grief. Right. But if you are, it's a week ago, it's a month ago, I'm sitting there witnessing being there sitting with you in compassion.
The Dr. John Delony Show
Grief Expert: Why Grief Demands a Witness (With David Kessler)
You're four years in and you aren't getting out of the house or you're not getting back in relationships or you're not living life. I'm going to be a little tougher coach.
The Dr. John Delony Show
Grief Expert: Why Grief Demands a Witness (With David Kessler)
That's okay.
The Dr. John Delony Show
Grief Expert: Why Grief Demands a Witness (With David Kessler)
Luckily, I had so many teachers to draw on. You know, um... I'm a reserve specialist with my local police department. I ran a group for police officers whose children died by suicide with the officer's gun. Wait, wait. You're protecting our world? You're showing up in a dangerous world? And your child died? Ooh, that doesn't make cosmic sense to me. Right.
The Dr. John Delony Show
Grief Expert: Why Grief Demands a Witness (With David Kessler)
There is no timeline in grief. If you are, it's a week ago, it's a month ago, and you're sitting there witnessing. You're four years in, aren't getting out of the house, or you're not getting back in relationships. I'm going to be a little tougher coach.
The Dr. John Delony Show
Grief Expert: Why Grief Demands a Witness (With David Kessler)
It's extra not right. You know, there's so many situations like that that I would sit with people. I remember there was a couple that came to a retreat, and I think I even wrote about them in there, whose two-year-old daughter went out with grandma in New York and And they're sitting on a bench and a random brick falls and kills the child. I'm sorry, what? What? What? Like a random brick?
The Dr. John Delony Show
Grief Expert: Why Grief Demands a Witness (With David Kessler)
And here's the thing about this. I worked with her on her anger. And I remember she kept saying, I can't say it. I can't say it. And we're in a room with hundreds of people. And I said, what if you just said it? What if we understood it and you said it? And she goes, I hate old people. And I go, okay, good. Let's release the shame of that. And there were some...
The Dr. John Delony Show
Grief Expert: Why Grief Demands a Witness (With David Kessler)
people who were a little older in the room. And I said, I wonder, could you like really scream this out or hit the pillow or whatever? Could you release this anger? And she goes, I can't. And I said, we're going to do it with you. And I had the room going, we hate old people. And like to hear it, it would have sounded crazy. Right, right. And then... She fell down in tears as she released it.
The Dr. John Delony Show
Grief Expert: Why Grief Demands a Witness (With David Kessler)
A brick falls, a police officer, this is our world. Yeah. Now, one of the things, when we look at the psychological world, personalization does not help us. Death is the most personal thing that happens. Mm-hmm. When you're getting a divorce, feels pretty personal. And then you have to go, the betrayal, the divorce, it actually isn't about me. It's happening to me, but it's not about me.
The Dr. John Delony Show
Grief Expert: Why Grief Demands a Witness (With David Kessler)
I don't think there was a personal nature to it. And it's the most personal, brutal thing that's happened to me. And I don't think that That brick chose that girl. Right. I don't think those—I think this is a life where loss happens, tragedy happens, period. That hurricane is not picking the houses.
The Dr. John Delony Show
Grief Expert: Why Grief Demands a Witness (With David Kessler)
It just is. It is. It just is. Yeah. So those are like, those are nuances to get to. I would never get to these nuances with someone newly in grief, but we're talking nuances.
The Dr. John Delony Show
Grief Expert: Why Grief Demands a Witness (With David Kessler)
And you may have been victimized, but it does not have to be a final victim story. Right.
The Dr. John Delony Show
Grief Expert: Why Grief Demands a Witness (With David Kessler)
I always say, bad enough this stuff happened once. Like, who wants to relive it every day?
The Dr. John Delony Show
Grief Expert: Why Grief Demands a Witness (With David Kessler)
Right. And that's why, you know, we were talking about this book, this workbook, is because I always say to people, like, someone goes, I was told I have to talk to you and do my grief work. What's grief work?
The Dr. John Delony Show
Grief Expert: Why Grief Demands a Witness (With David Kessler)
And I'm like, I'm going to take the tools and techniques that I've been teaching coaches and therapists for years and put them in a workbook like we're sitting at your kitchen table and I'm walking you through some things. Yes. Now, As you know, you know, my teacher was Kubler-Ross with the five stages, denial, anger, bargaining, depression, acceptance.
The Dr. John Delony Show
Grief Expert: Why Grief Demands a Witness (With David Kessler)
I hear her always telling me, tell them they're not linear. There is no model. There's not linear. We like said that till, you know, we're just blue in the face.
The Dr. John Delony Show
Grief Expert: Why Grief Demands a Witness (With David Kessler)
Right. It drives me crazy. It drives me crazy. Well, you know, shut up. It helps. It helps. There was a big study at Yale that said, you know, it's not denial, it's disbelief. Just shut up. Just shut up. And I'm like, okay, tomatoes, tomatoes.
The Dr. John Delony Show
Grief Expert: Why Grief Demands a Witness (With David Kessler)
And it really is many times. It's the academic world. I got to tell you, people go, which is the right grief model? I'm like, no one in grief ever says to me, which model? I mean, look, people sit with me and they go, I heard of you. You were taught by Kubler-Ross. I love the stages. I hate the stages. They're wrong. I'm like... So tell me, like... It's good to meet you.
The Dr. John Delony Show
Grief Expert: Why Grief Demands a Witness (With David Kessler)
Yeah, I'm not like... We're not even going to... And Kubler-Ross was that way. Right. On our book, like, page one, we said, please let go of that. But, you know, to me, when I wrote about meaning... Mm-hmm. The first reaction from people when they hear meaning is there's no meaning in a horrible divorce, betrayal, death, murder. Of course not. Meaning's in us. It's what we do after. Next, yeah.
The Dr. John Delony Show
Grief Expert: Why Grief Demands a Witness (With David Kessler)
It's what we do after. I find the biggest thing I wrestled with was acceptance. We think there's one big acceptance. There's a million of them. And I just want to see if I can find this for you here, just to take in this. Because people go, I know I'm trying to accept it. And they're just sort of like, they're just wrestling with finding a big acceptance. I wanted to break this down.
The Dr. John Delony Show
Grief Expert: Why Grief Demands a Witness (With David Kessler)
Let me just give you a few of these. if I truly accepted this death and that could mean the death of the marriage, the death of betrayal, the death of my job, whatever.
The Dr. John Delony Show
Grief Expert: Why Grief Demands a Witness (With David Kessler)
If I truly accepted this death, one thing I would change would be, okay. If I truly accepted this death, I would stop, you know, would that be revolving in my mind? If I truly accepted this death, I could finally? I mean, I have a co-author of this book. It's the person that's going to write it.
The Dr. John Delony Show
Grief Expert: Why Grief Demands a Witness (With David Kessler)
Like, I want to help you tease out the places where you have accepted, where you can't accept, where you're, you know. I mean, I was just at a conference and, you know, a woman bought three books and she said, this is for the me today. This is for me in three months. This is the me in six months and in a year. Yes. Like... She knows it's all going to keep changing and she's going to keep growing.
The Rachel Maddow Show
Donald Trump fired the man who likely saved his life; U.S. may never fully recover from Trump's cuts
Thank you for having me.
The Rachel Maddow Show
Donald Trump fired the man who likely saved his life; U.S. may never fully recover from Trump's cuts
Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.
The Rachel Maddow Show
Donald Trump fired the man who likely saved his life; U.S. may never fully recover from Trump's cuts
Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.
The Rachel Maddow Show
Donald Trump fired the man who likely saved his life; U.S. may never fully recover from Trump's cuts
Thank you. Thank you.