Dennis Murphy

And Blaine, this is very often a difficult concept for jurors to get their heads around. What is premeditation? How long do you need to plan your action to realize, I know what I'm going to do is wrong. I'm going to go ahead and do it anyway. Is that in an instant? Does it take minutes? Jurors seem to want to put premeditation on a timeline, and it's not an easy concept.

And Blaine, this is very often a difficult concept for jurors to get their heads around. What is premeditation? How long do you need to plan your action to realize, I know what I'm going to do is wrong. I'm going to go ahead and do it anyway. Is that in an instant? Does it take minutes? Jurors seem to want to put premeditation on a timeline, and it's not an easy concept.

But what a heaping plateful of grief this family had put on them. Here was their great grandmother, very beloved figure in the family. And all of a sudden they're gathered at her hospital bed saying goodbye. And then a few days later, Jazzy goes missing.

But what a heaping plateful of grief this family had put on them. Here was their great grandmother, very beloved figure in the family. And all of a sudden they're gathered at her hospital bed saying goodbye. And then a few days later, Jazzy goes missing.

Blaine, you had a chance to talk to at least one juror after the trial. And the issue was, what were you guys going through? Take me into the room. And it was juror number 11, a woman named Sarah. Let's listen to a little of that and see what she has to say.

Blaine, you had a chance to talk to at least one juror after the trial. And the issue was, what were you guys going through? Take me into the room. And it was juror number 11, a woman named Sarah. Let's listen to a little of that and see what she has to say.

It came down to premeditation, which that all the way up to the very end, the very ending premeditation, closing statement from DA Moyle or General Moyle. And I think I know for sure that red light analogy that Moyle gave is what really helped me understand the premeditation side of it.

It came down to premeditation, which that all the way up to the very end, the very ending premeditation, closing statement from DA Moyle or General Moyle. And I think I know for sure that red light analogy that Moyle gave is what really helped me understand the premeditation side of it.

And it's that essentially we've all been faced with this choice when we're driving a car and you come to a yellow light, you can either step on the gas and go through it or step on the brake and stop. And that there's so many factors that go into that. You're taking on other traffic coming by. They're considering are there people walking? Is there, are you late?

And it's that essentially we've all been faced with this choice when we're driving a car and you come to a yellow light, you can either step on the gas and go through it or step on the brake and stop. And that there's so many factors that go into that. You're taking on other traffic coming by. They're considering are there people walking? Is there, are you late?

We have all of these things that go through our mind in a split second to decide to go through it or hit the brake. And that's all it takes is a split second to decide. And just, you know, just like making that quick decision to stop at a yellow light. It's, you know, that really was what helped me solidify. Like there was so many opportunities to stop.

We have all of these things that go through our mind in a split second to decide to go through it or hit the brake. And that's all it takes is a split second to decide. And just, you know, just like making that quick decision to stop at a yellow light. It's, you know, that really was what helped me solidify. Like there was so many opportunities to stop.

I'm always struck that jurors don't get a manual on how to be a jury.

I'm always struck that jurors don't get a manual on how to be a jury.

How long was the jury out, Blaine? Not long, I don't think.

How long was the jury out, Blaine? Not long, I don't think.

Any reaction from him in the courtroom?

Any reaction from him in the courtroom?

Up next, we're going to take some of your questions to us from social media. Blaine, good old analog Murphy here thinks about the letters we get from our viewers. Of course, they're not letters. People are commenting very often when your story runs about what they thought. We've called out a few reactions to your story. Do you want to go through them and tell me what your take is on it?

Up next, we're going to take some of your questions to us from social media. Blaine, good old analog Murphy here thinks about the letters we get from our viewers. Of course, they're not letters. People are commenting very often when your story runs about what they thought. We've called out a few reactions to your story. Do you want to go through them and tell me what your take is on it?

I would love it. We heard from Dateline viewer Valerie Lynn Smith-Bowen. She wrote us, I would have done exactly what her mom and family did.

I would love it. We heard from Dateline viewer Valerie Lynn Smith-Bowen. She wrote us, I would have done exactly what her mom and family did.

And then there was Jude Marie Goudreau. I hope I'm getting the pronunciation right. She says, I bet her mom thinks about that pin every single day. My heart goes out to her.

And then there was Jude Marie Goudreau. I hope I'm getting the pronunciation right. She says, I bet her mom thinks about that pin every single day. My heart goes out to her.

That they missed it or the implication that they missed it.

That they missed it or the implication that they missed it.

Another viewer, two more perfect, went back to that apartment building when the scream was heard. Why would you write down the scream, Tom, but you don't call the police?

Another viewer, two more perfect, went back to that apartment building when the scream was heard. Why would you write down the scream, Tom, but you don't call the police?

Paulette Haywood asked something I always ask when we finish these stories. It's not so... It's not that difficult to answer the who question. The why question is much more difficult. And Paulette says, what on earth was the motive? Blaine, what do you think?

Paulette Haywood asked something I always ask when we finish these stories. It's not so... It's not that difficult to answer the who question. The why question is much more difficult. And Paulette says, what on earth was the motive? Blaine, what do you think?

That's all that it was. Which is not a satisfying answer, is it?

That's all that it was. Which is not a satisfying answer, is it?

We didn't talk about it, but apparently in the apartment or at his parents' home, found a bunch of Post-its, notes to self about his timeline and keeping his story straight.

We didn't talk about it, but apparently in the apartment or at his parents' home, found a bunch of Post-its, notes to self about his timeline and keeping his story straight.

And he did everything wrong if the subject was how to get away with murder. That's exactly it. Because he did not. Finally, Blaine, we heard from Stephen with a PH. I like that. Tonight's Dateline at 10 is a case that happened right here. He's shocked that he's watching this TV set and there's streets that he knows and people he knows and institutions and it's on his TV set.

And he did everything wrong if the subject was how to get away with murder. That's exactly it. Because he did not. Finally, Blaine, we heard from Stephen with a PH. I like that. Tonight's Dateline at 10 is a case that happened right here. He's shocked that he's watching this TV set and there's streets that he knows and people he knows and institutions and it's on his TV set.

It brings it home in a way that's kind of shocking for him.

It brings it home in a way that's kind of shocking for him.

Well, Blaine, congratulations. You and your team did a remarkable job in pulling this whole thing together and telling us who the victim was, which is so important, the person that we lost here.

Well, Blaine, congratulations. You and your team did a remarkable job in pulling this whole thing together and telling us who the victim was, which is so important, the person that we lost here.

And with that, Blaine will put a button on this edition of Talking Dateline. If you have any questions for us about stories you've seen on Dateline, you can reach us 24-7 on social media at DatelineNBC. So that's it for right now. We'll see you again on Friday, of course, as always, on Dateline. And thanks for joining us, Blaine. Good to have you. I'll see you all along the way.

And with that, Blaine will put a button on this edition of Talking Dateline. If you have any questions for us about stories you've seen on Dateline, you can reach us 24-7 on social media at DatelineNBC. So that's it for right now. We'll see you again on Friday, of course, as always, on Dateline. And thanks for joining us, Blaine. Good to have you. I'll see you all along the way.

And still is. Who did Jazzy turn out to be to you, Blaine, the more you found out about her? And you guys had remarkable photos. The videos were as good as any collection of gallery of those kinds of things that I've seen. It really evoked a sense of who she was.

And still is. Who did Jazzy turn out to be to you, Blaine, the more you found out about her? And you guys had remarkable photos. The videos were as good as any collection of gallery of those kinds of things that I've seen. It really evoked a sense of who she was.

Right.

Right.

How are you? Good. You know, you had me all the way through, right from the beginning. I wanted to see what happened next. And boy, once you set those horses running, this is a great story. Thank you so much. And I want to talk about it, but let's do a little recap first for people who haven't seen it yet. It's about 22-year-old Jasmine Jazzy Pace.

How are you? Good. You know, you had me all the way through, right from the beginning. I wanted to see what happened next. And boy, once you set those horses running, this is a great story. Thank you so much. And I want to talk about it, but let's do a little recap first for people who haven't seen it yet. It's about 22-year-old Jasmine Jazzy Pace.

Well, what happened, Blaine? I mean, granny suddenly dies. Family is in grief and it's about to be Thanksgiving. When did they start to become alarmed about Jazzy and where is Jazzy?

Well, what happened, Blaine? I mean, granny suddenly dies. Family is in grief and it's about to be Thanksgiving. When did they start to become alarmed about Jazzy and where is Jazzy?

That's very weird. This was an important family time and Jazzy needed to be at that table.

That's very weird. This was an important family time and Jazzy needed to be at that table.

Was that a fair assessment? The cops needed a fire put under them and they weren't getting it?

Was that a fair assessment? The cops needed a fire put under them and they weren't getting it?

I thought it was absolutely fascinating to be witnessing this dialogue in real time between the family members and the police officers with their body cams at the place, at the condo parking lot, I guess, where the vehicle had been ditched. You see in real time the grief, their fight to understand what's happening. They need help. They need somebody on their side.

I thought it was absolutely fascinating to be witnessing this dialogue in real time between the family members and the police officers with their body cams at the place, at the condo parking lot, I guess, where the vehicle had been ditched. You see in real time the grief, their fight to understand what's happening. They need help. They need somebody on their side.

And the cop maybe, you know, justifiably at that point is saying, look, it's the middle of the night, but family really wasn't taking it.

And the cop maybe, you know, justifiably at that point is saying, look, it's the middle of the night, but family really wasn't taking it.

I'm not doubt about how they took this whole thing and became their own detectives. I'm thinking, how did they know how to do that? How did they know how to do this? But this is all about living in the digital world and the footprints we leave around, isn't it?

I'm not doubt about how they took this whole thing and became their own detectives. I'm thinking, how did they know how to do that? How did they know how to do this? But this is all about living in the digital world and the footprints we leave around, isn't it?

She went missing around Thanksgiving of 2022, and her mom, Katrina, knew that something was terribly wrong. When authorities weren't giving her the answer she wanted, she took matters into her own hands, even against police recommendations.

She went missing around Thanksgiving of 2022, and her mom, Katrina, knew that something was terribly wrong. When authorities weren't giving her the answer she wanted, she took matters into her own hands, even against police recommendations.

You know, I wonder about that. What is cash app and why would you think to do that first?

You know, I wonder about that. What is cash app and why would you think to do that first?

Hey, everybody, I'm Dennis Murphy, and you have reached Talking Dateline. And our guest today is Blaine Alexander, my colleague, and she's going to be talking about her most recent episode, which was called The Pin at Apartment 210. Hey, Blaine, how are you?

Hey, everybody, I'm Dennis Murphy, and you have reached Talking Dateline. And our guest today is Blaine Alexander, my colleague, and she's going to be talking about her most recent episode, which was called The Pin at Apartment 210. Hey, Blaine, how are you?

Get a goose quill pen out. Yeah, it was a different era. Yeah.

Get a goose quill pen out. Yeah, it was a different era. Yeah.

So how did that app answer back? What did she learn?

So how did that app answer back? What did she learn?

So Jazzy is missing, her car is missing, and they went looking for the vehicle, didn't they?

So Jazzy is missing, her car is missing, and they went looking for the vehicle, didn't they?

How sharp and how observant is Gabby, huh?

How sharp and how observant is Gabby, huh?

And for this Talking Dateline, we have an extra clip from an interview with a juror in this case, talking about her experience coming to a verdict back during that emotional trial, and it was. Okay, so let's dive in and talk Dateline. Blaine, the hardest thing I've always felt is...

And for this Talking Dateline, we have an extra clip from an interview with a juror in this case, talking about her experience coming to a verdict back during that emotional trial, and it was. Okay, so let's dive in and talk Dateline. Blaine, the hardest thing I've always felt is...

On the timeline of her disappearance, Blaine, when does that happen, this pin drop message?

On the timeline of her disappearance, Blaine, when does that happen, this pin drop message?

Yeah, I would wonder that.

Yeah, I would wonder that.

Blaine, we're going to pause for a moment. But when we come back, we're going to hear an extra bit of sound from that juror who will tell us about what was going through their minds with this decision they had to make about premeditation. Sounds good.

Blaine, we're going to pause for a moment. But when we come back, we're going to hear an extra bit of sound from that juror who will tell us about what was going through their minds with this decision they had to make about premeditation. Sounds good.

Somebody gets the bright idea to go back out to the car, find their credit card and do a break in and get into apartment 210.

Somebody gets the bright idea to go back out to the car, find their credit card and do a break in and get into apartment 210.

in being a Dateline correspondent, is sitting in a chair, talking to a family member who has lost someone who was taken in such an ugly fashion way too soon. Tell me about cousin Jackie.

in being a Dateline correspondent, is sitting in a chair, talking to a family member who has lost someone who was taken in such an ugly fashion way too soon. Tell me about cousin Jackie.

I'm one who doesn't know what Cash App is, so no. I mean, I've seen it, you know, that you're supposed to be able to burgle a door with a credit card, but that they have the knowledge and the foresight and the guts to go ahead and charging into this thing. It's just.

I'm one who doesn't know what Cash App is, so no. I mean, I've seen it, you know, that you're supposed to be able to burgle a door with a credit card, but that they have the knowledge and the foresight and the guts to go ahead and charging into this thing. It's just.

And maybe we should say, Blaine, while there is criticism that they were slow in getting up to speed, once they had reason for their authority, they did very, very well at this thing.

And maybe we should say, Blaine, while there is criticism that they were slow in getting up to speed, once they had reason for their authority, they did very, very well at this thing.

And there's an unforgettable soundbite from your officer, which is, we have now gone past a missing persons investigation. This is a homicide. How chilling is that?

And there's an unforgettable soundbite from your officer, which is, we have now gone past a missing persons investigation. This is a homicide. How chilling is that?

So the question then, I guess, is Jason, where is he? That's exactly it. Give me a quick thumbnail of who Jason is. What's the little biography?

So the question then, I guess, is Jason, where is he? That's exactly it. Give me a quick thumbnail of who Jason is. What's the little biography?

He has ended up back at his parents where the cops do a knock, knock, knock. And there's Jason.

He has ended up back at his parents where the cops do a knock, knock, knock. And there's Jason.

But the phone told the story, didn't it?

But the phone told the story, didn't it?

And it takes a while for a case to get to court. I think people maybe don't understand that it's often two years from the time that a story is in the newspapers to... when it's actually before a judge and a jury. Yes. And it took fully that long to get this case into court. It did. I'm wondering, Blaine, about this whole notion of pre-child rulings about what the jury can hear about the evidence.

And it takes a while for a case to get to court. I think people maybe don't understand that it's often two years from the time that a story is in the newspapers to... when it's actually before a judge and a jury. Yes. And it took fully that long to get this case into court. It did. I'm wondering, Blaine, about this whole notion of pre-child rulings about what the jury can hear about the evidence.

And this is this whole thing of, you know, that maybe the family jumped the gun by going into that apartment before the authorities, and is everything going to get thrown out? Do you have any insight on how that all went?

And this is this whole thing of, you know, that maybe the family jumped the gun by going into that apartment before the authorities, and is everything going to get thrown out? Do you have any insight on how that all went?

And of course, the defense attorney surprised everyone in the courtroom right in his very opening.

And of course, the defense attorney surprised everyone in the courtroom right in his very opening.

So the defense strategy, I guess, is let's go for a lesser here. We do not want a conviction on murder one premeditated. Maybe we can argue it all the way down to manslaughter.

So the defense strategy, I guess, is let's go for a lesser here. We do not want a conviction on murder one premeditated. Maybe we can argue it all the way down to manslaughter.

A down and back, hit the clubs, do some shots, hello 2010.

A down and back, hit the clubs, do some shots, hello 2010.

The North Miami detective was with the medical examiner's staff when the phone rang. It was Kevin Klim asking if they'd found a young woman, his girlfriend, Paula Sleduski, missing now for three days.

The North Miami detective was with the medical examiner's staff when the phone rang. It was Kevin Klim asking if they'd found a young woman, his girlfriend, Paula Sleduski, missing now for three days.

Dental records would later confirm that it was indeed Paula Sledewski.

Dental records would later confirm that it was indeed Paula Sledewski.

DNA, bodily fluids, skin under fingernails. The woman's murderer might assume all would be rendered just so much unreadable char.

DNA, bodily fluids, skin under fingernails. The woman's murderer might assume all would be rendered just so much unreadable char.

Pretty quickly, the detective had a victim from Michigan with a name and a boyfriend who'd reported her missing. What's more, he was still in South Florida. So what was his story, this Kevin guy? On the one hand, he appeared to be appropriately distraught. He was the one who filed the missing persons report, and he was seen putting up posters around town with her photo on it.

Pretty quickly, the detective had a victim from Michigan with a name and a boyfriend who'd reported her missing. What's more, he was still in South Florida. So what was his story, this Kevin guy? On the one hand, he appeared to be appropriately distraught. He was the one who filed the missing persons report, and he was seen putting up posters around town with her photo on it.

On the other hand, he was the boyfriend, and that single fact alone made him a person of interest to the investigators.

On the other hand, he was the boyfriend, and that single fact alone made him a person of interest to the investigators.

Of course. Standard procedure. Standard procedure. Take off the clothes, take some pictures, have a seat. We're going to talk to you for a while. Yeah. A good while, in fact. And even though Kevin Klim showed no visible marks or scratches from a fight or struggle, detectives still had a lot of questions.

Of course. Standard procedure. Standard procedure. Take off the clothes, take some pictures, have a seat. We're going to talk to you for a while. Yeah. A good while, in fact. And even though Kevin Klim showed no visible marks or scratches from a fight or struggle, detectives still had a lot of questions.

Detectives quickly learned the details weren't always pretty. Kevin and Paula's relationship had been rocky at times. Court records in both California and Michigan showed a history of domestic violence arrests between the two. One included Paula's arrest in California for hitting Kevin with a bottle. The case was dropped when Kevin refused to press charges.

Detectives quickly learned the details weren't always pretty. Kevin and Paula's relationship had been rocky at times. Court records in both California and Michigan showed a history of domestic violence arrests between the two. One included Paula's arrest in California for hitting Kevin with a bottle. The case was dropped when Kevin refused to press charges.

And in the months prior to the Miami trip, Kevin was arrested twice for assaulting Paula in Michigan, the last time Paula's nose had been broken.

And in the months prior to the Miami trip, Kevin was arrested twice for assaulting Paula in Michigan, the last time Paula's nose had been broken.

But come Monday, the live-in boyfriend-girlfriend pair were not on a plane to Detroit. Rather, Kevin Klimt was a very worried guy, meandering down palm tree-lined boulevards in a city he didn't know, looking for his girlfriend Paula. She was missing. Paula, the aspiring leggy model with blonde hair down to there, had absolutely vanished.

But come Monday, the live-in boyfriend-girlfriend pair were not on a plane to Detroit. Rather, Kevin Klimt was a very worried guy, meandering down palm tree-lined boulevards in a city he didn't know, looking for his girlfriend Paula. She was missing. Paula, the aspiring leggy model with blonde hair down to there, had absolutely vanished.

Kevin's name and background quickly got into the reporting on the lurid murder. The reporters found the court records of domestic violence complaints. That didn't look good for the boyfriend. And neither did the story told by the Lady Gaga concertgoer who'd taken iPhone videos of Kevin and Paula.

Kevin's name and background quickly got into the reporting on the lurid murder. The reporters found the court records of domestic violence complaints. That didn't look good for the boyfriend. And neither did the story told by the Lady Gaga concertgoer who'd taken iPhone videos of Kevin and Paula.

The cell phone photographer John Williams went on TV and said he distinctly remembered the man who would turn out to be Kevin as someone acting too aggressively in the crowd.

The cell phone photographer John Williams went on TV and said he distinctly remembered the man who would turn out to be Kevin as someone acting too aggressively in the crowd.

And then there was a new lead to the coverage. According to news reports, sometime, it's not clear when, but before her Miami weekend, Paula had allegedly sent a text message to an ex-boyfriend saying, he's trying to kill me. He. Was that Kevin? They've got to find who did this to my baby.

And then there was a new lead to the coverage. According to news reports, sometime, it's not clear when, but before her Miami weekend, Paula had allegedly sent a text message to an ex-boyfriend saying, he's trying to kill me. He. Was that Kevin? They've got to find who did this to my baby.

Paula's mother, Patsy Watkins, up in Michigan, was telling anyone who'd listened that she had no use for Kevin Clem.

Paula's mother, Patsy Watkins, up in Michigan, was telling anyone who'd listened that she had no use for Kevin Clem.

As she arranged for care for her murdered daughter's two dogs, she was preparing to tell detectives in Miami what she'd already told the TV cameras. She claimed her daughter was terrified of Kevin Clem.

As she arranged for care for her murdered daughter's two dogs, she was preparing to tell detectives in Miami what she'd already told the TV cameras. She claimed her daughter was terrified of Kevin Clem.

But bad-mouthing family and maybe bad behavior at a Lady Gaga concert didn't make for the foundation of a homicide case. So detectives came here to the club where she was last seen to get down exactly what that story was about how the two of them had come to be ejected from club space by bouncers. Bartender Raymond Diaz told about seeing the start of the trouble between the pair.

But bad-mouthing family and maybe bad behavior at a Lady Gaga concert didn't make for the foundation of a homicide case. So detectives came here to the club where she was last seen to get down exactly what that story was about how the two of them had come to be ejected from club space by bouncers. Bartender Raymond Diaz told about seeing the start of the trouble between the pair.

The club managers explained the House policy of ejecting both parties when trouble flares, him and her. So in the early hours of the case, there was a lot of stuff swirling about Kevin Clinton. He came across like a short-fused guy who sometimes got physical. At the end of that first interview with Kevin, the boyfriend, is he on your suspect list of people of interest? Yes, he is.

The club managers explained the House policy of ejecting both parties when trouble flares, him and her. So in the early hours of the case, there was a lot of stuff swirling about Kevin Clinton. He came across like a short-fused guy who sometimes got physical. At the end of that first interview with Kevin, the boyfriend, is he on your suspect list of people of interest? Yes, he is.

He hasn't talked himself off the list? No. At the end of his 12 hours of grilling, Kevin said he felt more like a prime suspect with a star next to his name. Forget about person of interest.

He hasn't talked himself off the list? No. At the end of his 12 hours of grilling, Kevin said he felt more like a prime suspect with a star next to his name. Forget about person of interest.

In the court of public opinion, it was looking as though the boyfriend did it. But it turned out the 26-year-old dancer who so loved the lens had one final scene before the camera. A few seconds of grainy security cam footage. And what investigators saw there made them think that maybe the boyfriend was telling the truth. Coming up, Paula's last date with a killer.

In the court of public opinion, it was looking as though the boyfriend did it. But it turned out the 26-year-old dancer who so loved the lens had one final scene before the camera. A few seconds of grainy security cam footage. And what investigators saw there made them think that maybe the boyfriend was telling the truth. Coming up, Paula's last date with a killer.

When Death of a Golden Girl Continues Paula was dead. And the boyfriend, Kevin, realized he was falling behind the curve on where the finger of suspicion pointed. Do you volunteer the tumultuous histories that's going to be reported in the newspaper stories in the next few days?

When Death of a Golden Girl Continues Paula was dead. And the boyfriend, Kevin, realized he was falling behind the curve on where the finger of suspicion pointed. Do you volunteer the tumultuous histories that's going to be reported in the newspaper stories in the next few days?

The North Miami detectives interviewed him for 12 hours before letting him leave. So you're waiting to be arrested at that point?

The North Miami detectives interviewed him for 12 hours before letting him leave. So you're waiting to be arrested at that point?

Looking back, maybe if Lady Gaga hadn't been booked at the Fontainebleau Hotel for New Year's Eve, Paula wouldn't have insisted on that last-minute trip to Miami and later gotten separated. But Paula really wanted to see Gaga's midnight show. And once down in Miami, Kevin scored scalpers tickets for $700 each.

Looking back, maybe if Lady Gaga hadn't been booked at the Fontainebleau Hotel for New Year's Eve, Paula wouldn't have insisted on that last-minute trip to Miami and later gotten separated. But Paula really wanted to see Gaga's midnight show. And once down in Miami, Kevin scored scalpers tickets for $700 each.

Meanwhile, Dave Wasser, a private detective Kevin had hired the day after Paula went missing, was doing his own legwork.

Meanwhile, Dave Wasser, a private detective Kevin had hired the day after Paula went missing, was doing his own legwork.

He videotaped interviews with people who hang around outside the club and handed out flyers. Kevin was just a guy who'd called the detective in the middle of the night. But there was something about the boyfriend that felt right in his gut.

He videotaped interviews with people who hang around outside the club and handed out flyers. Kevin was just a guy who'd called the detective in the middle of the night. But there was something about the boyfriend that felt right in his gut.

And soon the detective would meet an unlikely supporter of Kevin's, a member of Paula's family, her sister, Kelly Ferris, who, unlike her mother, thought that Kevin was getting a bad rap in the media, not that he was blameless.

And soon the detective would meet an unlikely supporter of Kevin's, a member of Paula's family, her sister, Kelly Ferris, who, unlike her mother, thought that Kevin was getting a bad rap in the media, not that he was blameless.

Kelly, the sister, paid her own way down to Miami to help police in the investigation.

Kelly, the sister, paid her own way down to Miami to help police in the investigation.

She'd last seen her sister with Kevin that Christmas at a family get together, and they seemed happy together. No sign of the behavior that got both of them arrested for domestic violence before. If they're going at it like cats and dogs, why are they staying together, Kelly?

She'd last seen her sister with Kevin that Christmas at a family get together, and they seemed happy together. No sign of the behavior that got both of them arrested for domestic violence before. If they're going at it like cats and dogs, why are they staying together, Kelly?

Kelly said Paula was also taking prescription diet pills to stay in shape for her modeling and dancing careers.

Kelly said Paula was also taking prescription diet pills to stay in shape for her modeling and dancing careers.

Kelly shrugs off her sister's reported broken nose.

Kelly shrugs off her sister's reported broken nose.

And that text message from Paula to an old boyfriend saying she feared for her life. That turned out to be less than advertised. It was moldy old and the shaky source of it was the same boyfriend who was jailed for having sex with a minor when Paula was just 14. Kelly doesn't make apologies for her sister's lifestyle choice. The strip bars, the booze, the pills.

And that text message from Paula to an old boyfriend saying she feared for her life. That turned out to be less than advertised. It was moldy old and the shaky source of it was the same boyfriend who was jailed for having sex with a minor when Paula was just 14. Kelly doesn't make apologies for her sister's lifestyle choice. The strip bars, the booze, the pills.

But she remembers as well a Paula who loved her Barbies and who caught the bouquet at Kelly's wedding. Now she was reduced to the 11 o'clock news tease. Playboy model in burning dumpster. Your pretty sister, your kid sister, treated like so much trash.

But she remembers as well a Paula who loved her Barbies and who caught the bouquet at Kelly's wedding. Now she was reduced to the 11 o'clock news tease. Playboy model in burning dumpster. Your pretty sister, your kid sister, treated like so much trash.

Burned in a dumpster of all things.

Burned in a dumpster of all things.

When she got to Miami, she decided to do some searching herself. She turned on her rental car's GPS and punched in her sister's final waypoints, club space and the dumpster. Imagine you're hoping you're going to come across somebody who's seen something or noticed that there's a camera that might have taken a picture.

When she got to Miami, she decided to do some searching herself. She turned on her rental car's GPS and punched in her sister's final waypoints, club space and the dumpster. Imagine you're hoping you're going to come across somebody who's seen something or noticed that there's a camera that might have taken a picture.

Club Space, it turned out, had almost 30 security cameras, but none outside showing the sidewalk. Most were aimed at the bar cash registers to keep the employees honest. But there was one camera that just might have captured something. There was a camera inside, high over the front door entrance. The private detective rewound the tape deck.

Club Space, it turned out, had almost 30 security cameras, but none outside showing the sidewalk. Most were aimed at the bar cash registers to keep the employees honest. But there was one camera that just might have captured something. There was a camera inside, high over the front door entrance. The private detective rewound the tape deck.

Seven seconds of grainy video. The last images of Paula Sleduski. That's her on the right side of the screen. The hair, the dress, the six-inch heels. It's 7.21 in the morning. And Kevin? Rewinding the tape about five minutes, the detective found him too. That's Kevin on the right side of the screen begging bouncers to ask his girlfriend to leave with him.

Seven seconds of grainy video. The last images of Paula Sleduski. That's her on the right side of the screen. The hair, the dress, the six-inch heels. It's 7.21 in the morning. And Kevin? Rewinding the tape about five minutes, the detective found him too. That's Kevin on the right side of the screen begging bouncers to ask his girlfriend to leave with him.

At 7.17 in the morning, Kevin is seen exiting the club alone.

At 7.17 in the morning, Kevin is seen exiting the club alone.

Although police still considered Kevin a person of interest, there was persuasive evidence now that he left Paula behind at the club. It seems to bolster his story and his recollection of the time that he accidentally left.

Although police still considered Kevin a person of interest, there was persuasive evidence now that he left Paula behind at the club. It seems to bolster his story and his recollection of the time that he accidentally left.

The head of security at Club Space, Mike Samuel, says he saw both Kevin and later Paula leave alone. But he and others have added an important new observation, something not seen by this blinking security camera up here, the detail that has changed the focus of the murder investigations. The club security chief said he did see Paula walking away with someone once she was on the street.

The head of security at Club Space, Mike Samuel, says he saw both Kevin and later Paula leave alone. But he and others have added an important new observation, something not seen by this blinking security camera up here, the detail that has changed the focus of the murder investigations. The club security chief said he did see Paula walking away with someone once she was on the street.

Their attendance at the show was even documented by the guy behind them who took iPhone vids of them dancing. Men tended to do that when they saw Paula all clubbed out. 2010, at that moment, and for not much longer, was starting off for Paula Sledusky right in the sweet spot she loved so well.

Their attendance at the show was even documented by the guy behind them who took iPhone vids of them dancing. Men tended to do that when they saw Paula all clubbed out. 2010, at that moment, and for not much longer, was starting off for Paula Sledusky right in the sweet spot she loved so well.

And that person wasn't Kevin Klim.

And that person wasn't Kevin Klim.

Paula was gone, but who was the man who accompanied her? Coming up, was Paula's killer one of the men who'd been hitting on her at the club?

Paula was gone, but who was the man who accompanied her? Coming up, was Paula's killer one of the men who'd been hitting on her at the club?

When Dateline continues... Police now had two big clues in the gruesome murder of Paula Sleduski. A grainy seven-second surveillance video showing the aspiring model leaving the club alone. And an eyewitness, a bouncer at the club, who said he saw Paula walk away hand-in-hand with a man she met on the street.

When Dateline continues... Police now had two big clues in the gruesome murder of Paula Sleduski. A grainy seven-second surveillance video showing the aspiring model leaving the club alone. And an eyewitness, a bouncer at the club, who said he saw Paula walk away hand-in-hand with a man she met on the street.

But Paula's boyfriend, Kevin Clem, said the sometime exotic dancer was too savvy to go off with a stranger.

But Paula's boyfriend, Kevin Clem, said the sometime exotic dancer was too savvy to go off with a stranger.

Kevin had told police that guys were swarming all over Paula at the dance club, and that was a reason he wanted to get her out of there. Was her killer one of the guys hitting on her? But when Kevin and his private investigator, Dave Wasser, went back to the seconds of surveillance cam showing Paula leaving, they came up with another theory.

Kevin had told police that guys were swarming all over Paula at the dance club, and that was a reason he wanted to get her out of there. Was her killer one of the guys hitting on her? But when Kevin and his private investigator, Dave Wasser, went back to the seconds of surveillance cam showing Paula leaving, they came up with another theory.

They studied the images and thought the two club employees seen following her out are maybe overly interested in the striking blonde. Kevin, break it down frame by frame, this little snippet of video of her leaving. What do you see in it?

They studied the images and thought the two club employees seen following her out are maybe overly interested in the striking blonde. Kevin, break it down frame by frame, this little snippet of video of her leaving. What do you see in it?

Police also study the tape and talk to every club employee seen in it. Lead homicide detective Michael Gaudio. You talked to the door guys, security. Were they also persons of interest to you? Yes. Yes. Have they talked themselves off your list at this point?

Police also study the tape and talk to every club employee seen in it. Lead homicide detective Michael Gaudio. You talked to the door guys, security. Were they also persons of interest to you? Yes. Yes. Have they talked themselves off your list at this point?

Kevin, getting all conspiracy theory, even wondered if maybe there was a plot among club workers to make a play for the hottie left behind by her boyfriend. Police say that's doubtful.

Kevin, getting all conspiracy theory, even wondered if maybe there was a plot among club workers to make a play for the hottie left behind by her boyfriend. Police say that's doubtful.

Here's one of the club employees in that video. He's Mike Samuels, the club's chief of security. He says, look at the tape and you see exactly what really happened. Employees doing their job, showing an ejected patron to the street. No one makes a move for her.

Here's one of the club employees in that video. He's Mike Samuels, the club's chief of security. He says, look at the tape and you see exactly what really happened. Employees doing their job, showing an ejected patron to the street. No one makes a move for her.

Now, this is the little bit of chamber before you go to the street, and the security camera is up here where we see that video of Paula then leaving the club.

Now, this is the little bit of chamber before you go to the street, and the security camera is up here where we see that video of Paula then leaving the club.

That's front door manager Samuels directly behind Paula, escorting her to the door. The two bouncers at the left of the screen were not following Paula, he says. They were following him, their boss, to the front door to make sure there were no further problems on the street. Mike, when armchair detectives say... Look, she's a hot woman. Security guys had their eye on her.

That's front door manager Samuels directly behind Paula, escorting her to the door. The two bouncers at the left of the screen were not following Paula, he says. They were following him, their boss, to the front door to make sure there were no further problems on the street. Mike, when armchair detectives say... Look, she's a hot woman. Security guys had their eye on her.

It's easy to get rid of the boyfriend for a minor violation, and then we've got the girl to ourselves.

It's easy to get rid of the boyfriend for a minor violation, and then we've got the girl to ourselves.

What's more, the security chief says every employee was accounted for that night and no one left with Paula.

What's more, the security chief says every employee was accounted for that night and no one left with Paula.

Samuels emphasizes that the bearded black man Paula was seen walking away with had not been in the club that night. Why not? Because of the club's strict dress code.

Samuels emphasizes that the bearded black man Paula was seen walking away with had not been in the club that night. Why not? Because of the club's strict dress code.

And she had a lot of them. Pictures, headshots, glamour stuff. At 26 years old, she'd come to know cameras very well. She was a model represented by a national agency. And she'd made the usual rounds. Local commercials, pretty girl at the Detroit car show kind of stints. Nothing really big until Hef said, maybe.

And she had a lot of them. Pictures, headshots, glamour stuff. At 26 years old, she'd come to know cameras very well. She was a model represented by a national agency. And she'd made the usual rounds. Local commercials, pretty girl at the Detroit car show kind of stints. Nothing really big until Hef said, maybe.

But two weeks after Paula's murder, Club Space employees could not believe their eyes. They thought they saw the very man Paula walked off with that morning out on the street. He was back, brazen. Could this be the man everyone was looking for? Mister walked away with her hand in hand. Coming up, a first look at the man who may have killed Paula.

But two weeks after Paula's murder, Club Space employees could not believe their eyes. They thought they saw the very man Paula walked off with that morning out on the street. He was back, brazen. Could this be the man everyone was looking for? Mister walked away with her hand in hand. Coming up, a first look at the man who may have killed Paula.

A Sunday morning just before 7.30, outside a Miami club where the party night's only halfway through. Taxis, patrons. Paula Sledusky ejected and leaving under the watchful eye of the head security man.

A Sunday morning just before 7.30, outside a Miami club where the party night's only halfway through. Taxis, patrons. Paula Sledusky ejected and leaving under the watchful eye of the head security man.

Paula and somebody heading towards the lot behind the strip club across the street. And guess what? Two weeks after the murder, bouncers at Club Space are certain they've seen the same man again, right outside the front door. This guy that your door people saw that night, the one approaching her, they believe they saw that same individual again a few weeks later, is that correct?

Paula and somebody heading towards the lot behind the strip club across the street. And guess what? Two weeks after the murder, bouncers at Club Space are certain they've seen the same man again, right outside the front door. This guy that your door people saw that night, the one approaching her, they believe they saw that same individual again a few weeks later, is that correct?

Club Space owner Louis Puig says they called the Miami cops who came and questioned the man.

Club Space owner Louis Puig says they called the Miami cops who came and questioned the man.

What happened during those 14 hours? The time between when Paula was last seen outside the club to the hour when her body was found afire in a dumpster. A gap in time police all over Miami were trying to fill. Paula's boyfriend left Miami within 10 days of the murder, under a shadow.

What happened during those 14 hours? The time between when Paula was last seen outside the club to the hour when her body was found afire in a dumpster. A gap in time police all over Miami were trying to fill. Paula's boyfriend left Miami within 10 days of the murder, under a shadow.

Back in Michigan, he pleaded guilty to a misdemeanor assault charge in one of those domestic violence cases and was given probation. Charges against him in the other case were dropped. Police in Miami say they still consider him a person of interest. But now they were focusing on the man Paula was seen walking away from the club with.

Back in Michigan, he pleaded guilty to a misdemeanor assault charge in one of those domestic violence cases and was given probation. Charges against him in the other case were dropped. Police in Miami say they still consider him a person of interest. But now they were focusing on the man Paula was seen walking away from the club with.

Paula's sister Kelly also left her home in Detroit, but returned to Miami four weeks later. She wanted to keep the case alive.

Paula's sister Kelly also left her home in Detroit, but returned to Miami four weeks later. She wanted to keep the case alive.

She gave TV interviews. Let's go stick on a tree. Posted flyers with the private investigator, Dave Wasser, and talked to anyone who might have seen something. A big sister, Nancy Drew. We appreciate it.

She gave TV interviews. Let's go stick on a tree. Posted flyers with the private investigator, Dave Wasser, and talked to anyone who might have seen something. A big sister, Nancy Drew. We appreciate it.

Kelly put up $15,000 of her own money for a reward. Club's space owners doubled that amount to $30,000, a lubricant, hopefully, for reluctant tipsters. And then, almost one month to the day after the murder, just when the case seemed to be stalled out, came a dramatic development. Police announced they had a composite sketch of that man the people had seen outside the club with Paula.

Kelly put up $15,000 of her own money for a reward. Club's space owners doubled that amount to $30,000, a lubricant, hopefully, for reluctant tipsters. And then, almost one month to the day after the murder, just when the case seemed to be stalled out, came a dramatic development. Police announced they had a composite sketch of that man the people had seen outside the club with Paula.

Paula tried out for a national Playboy Playmate search. Think an American Idol-style cattle call with skimpier clothing. Paula made it onto the 2003 video, Playboy's 50th anniversary ultimate Playmate search. She never got to be Miss November. She didn't make the cut. Still, her sister Kelly Ferris remembers Paula being happy she tried it.

Paula tried out for a national Playboy Playmate search. Think an American Idol-style cattle call with skimpier clothing. Paula made it onto the 2003 video, Playboy's 50th anniversary ultimate Playmate search. She never got to be Miss November. She didn't make the cut. Still, her sister Kelly Ferris remembers Paula being happy she tried it.

The club employees had only glimpsed the man from the back inside. Now there was a new witness, police won't say who, who got a better look at the man from head on. This is the sketch of that man produced by a police artist.

The club employees had only glimpsed the man from the back inside. Now there was a new witness, police won't say who, who got a better look at the man from head on. This is the sketch of that man produced by a police artist.

That's not to say that he hasn't been inside the club, right?

That's not to say that he hasn't been inside the club, right?

The sketch was released the same day Kelly was putting up reward posters near the dumpster where her sister's body was found. This was the moment when Kelly got her first look at the man who may have killed her sister.

The sketch was released the same day Kelly was putting up reward posters near the dumpster where her sister's body was found. This was the moment when Kelly got her first look at the man who may have killed her sister.

Kevin Klim thought he actually recognized that face in the sketch and dropped a bombshell.

Kevin Klim thought he actually recognized that face in the sketch and dropped a bombshell.

Kevin thought it was someone who had checked Paula's ID when they entered the club. On another trip down to Miami, he went back to club space on a Sunday morning at the very hour when Paula had disappeared weeks earlier.

Kevin thought it was someone who had checked Paula's ID when they entered the club. On another trip down to Miami, he went back to club space on a Sunday morning at the very hour when Paula had disappeared weeks earlier.

Hoping he wouldn't be recognized, Kevin went undercover at the club. He was looking for the bouncer he thought matched the sketch. Two hours later, he emerged to the daylight disappointed.

Hoping he wouldn't be recognized, Kevin went undercover at the club. He was looking for the bouncer he thought matched the sketch. Two hours later, he emerged to the daylight disappointed.

Bologna responded the club owners. They say Kevin is mistaken. The staff is the same, and they have the payroll stubs to prove it.

Bologna responded the club owners. They say Kevin is mistaken. The staff is the same, and they have the payroll stubs to prove it.

Police say none of the bouncers matches the suspect in the sketch. Now, many years later, it is an increasingly cold case in a hot city. Forensic experts have processed some abandoned cars found near the dumpster. If there was a hit there, the authorities haven't disclosed it. So mainly, there is this sketch.

Police say none of the bouncers matches the suspect in the sketch. Now, many years later, it is an increasingly cold case in a hot city. Forensic experts have processed some abandoned cars found near the dumpster. If there was a hit there, the authorities haven't disclosed it. So mainly, there is this sketch.

The detectives hope that Paula's look-at-me looks will trigger a memory from a witness somewhere that morning in January. So that signature of her whole life of turning heads might ultimately be the signature of who finds the killer. Absolutely. Because you couldn't take your eyes off her. Absolutely. Meanwhile, the Miami party goes on. business at the clubs hasn't dipped a bit.

The detectives hope that Paula's look-at-me looks will trigger a memory from a witness somewhere that morning in January. So that signature of her whole life of turning heads might ultimately be the signature of who finds the killer. Absolutely. Because you couldn't take your eyes off her. Absolutely. Meanwhile, the Miami party goes on. business at the clubs hasn't dipped a bit.

If club patrons don't seem to be worried about maybe a hunter in their midst, the police have done their worrying for them.

If club patrons don't seem to be worried about maybe a hunter in their midst, the police have done their worrying for them.

Back in Michigan, Paula's sister Kelly and boyfriend Kevin have waited so many years for a call that so far hasn't come. We have him. 2010 was a very short year for Paula Sledusky, murdered at the age of 26.

Back in Michigan, Paula's sister Kelly and boyfriend Kevin have waited so many years for a call that so far hasn't come. We have him. 2010 was a very short year for Paula Sledusky, murdered at the age of 26.

But it just never quite broke for her, did it?

But it just never quite broke for her, did it?

But she talked to Kevin about revving up her modeling dreams or fantasies one last time as soon as this Miami trip was over. Saturday, January 2, 2010, was still a vacation day for Paula and her boyfriend. They splurged and moved hotels to a place on the beach. There, on the Art Deco Strip, they befriended a waiter and asked him, what's up?

But she talked to Kevin about revving up her modeling dreams or fantasies one last time as soon as this Miami trip was over. Saturday, January 2, 2010, was still a vacation day for Paula and her boyfriend. They splurged and moved hotels to a place on the beach. There, on the Art Deco Strip, they befriended a waiter and asked him, what's up?

Miami's hottest after-hours club. It's only open one marathon night a week from Saturday at 11 p.m. till Sunday afternoon. So that night, Kevin says, they had a romantic dinner on South Beach where Paula bought this neon blue dress. They slept for a bit, then woke up and got dressed. Paula did her customary one-hour makeup thing, and at 5.30 a.m., Paula and Kevin cabbed it to Club Space.

Miami's hottest after-hours club. It's only open one marathon night a week from Saturday at 11 p.m. till Sunday afternoon. So that night, Kevin says, they had a romantic dinner on South Beach where Paula bought this neon blue dress. They slept for a bit, then woke up and got dressed. Paula did her customary one-hour makeup thing, and at 5.30 a.m., Paula and Kevin cabbed it to Club Space.

Lady Gaga, now Club Space. Paula, in her six-inch heels, sheer blue dress, and waist-length hair, was a head-turner even to an end-of-shift bartender like Raymond Diaz, who sees lots of Miami hotties.

Lady Gaga, now Club Space. Paula, in her six-inch heels, sheer blue dress, and waist-length hair, was a head-turner even to an end-of-shift bartender like Raymond Diaz, who sees lots of Miami hotties.

Paula and Kevin had been dating and living together for a couple of years, and he knew from painful experience what impact his girlfriend would have in a cavernous dance space jammed with single men powered by alcohol. Paula Sladuski was boom shakalaka. She seems to be the kind of girl who would walk in a room and just take the oxygen right out of it.

Paula and Kevin had been dating and living together for a couple of years, and he knew from painful experience what impact his girlfriend would have in a cavernous dance space jammed with single men powered by alcohol. Paula Sladuski was boom shakalaka. She seems to be the kind of girl who would walk in a room and just take the oxygen right out of it.

Paula danced, flashing her new mini as the fins began circling her. Kevin knew the drill. Run interference on the men salivating for her as best he could. But these guys were making heavy moves on his woman.

Paula danced, flashing her new mini as the fins began circling her. Kevin knew the drill. Run interference on the men salivating for her as best he could. But these guys were making heavy moves on his woman.

But Paula, lit up by the attention and the shooter she was downing, had a different idea. She was digging in her stilettos.

But Paula, lit up by the attention and the shooter she was downing, had a different idea. She was digging in her stilettos.

Kevin was being ejected from the club by security. She was staying. She asked him for her credit card, and he gave it to her. Kevin said he wasn't going to reason with her in that haze. So seething, he says he got in a cab, still carrying her cell phone as he always did when they went clubbing, and headed back over the causeway to their hotel room on Miami Beach.

Kevin was being ejected from the club by security. She was staying. She asked him for her credit card, and he gave it to her. Kevin said he wasn't going to reason with her in that haze. So seething, he says he got in a cab, still carrying her cell phone as he always did when they went clubbing, and headed back over the causeway to their hotel room on Miami Beach.

As the sun came up that Sunday morning, Kevin Clem crashed without his girlfriend. But if he paced about outside that club for only a few more minutes after he was tossed out, he would have seen Paula herself leaving just before 7.30 in the morning. She turned right at the sidewalk and disappeared, as they say, without a trace. Coming up, Kevin wakes up alone but not worried, at least not yet.

As the sun came up that Sunday morning, Kevin Clem crashed without his girlfriend. But if he paced about outside that club for only a few more minutes after he was tossed out, he would have seen Paula herself leaving just before 7.30 in the morning. She turned right at the sidewalk and disappeared, as they say, without a trace. Coming up, Kevin wakes up alone but not worried, at least not yet.

Had you and Paula had nights that had ended like that before? Yes. And she always came home. This time, it would be different. When Death of a Golden Girl Continues. Three days into 2010, after a night of clubbing, Kevin Klimt woke up in his Miami Beach hotel room with a throbbing head and minus his girlfriend, Paula Sleduski. It came back to him.

Had you and Paula had nights that had ended like that before? Yes. And she always came home. This time, it would be different. When Death of a Golden Girl Continues. Three days into 2010, after a night of clubbing, Kevin Klimt woke up in his Miami Beach hotel room with a throbbing head and minus his girlfriend, Paula Sleduski. It came back to him.

Club space, the bouncers throwing him out at dawn, Paula electing to stay. Had you and Paula had nights that had ended like that before? Yes. And she always came home. So it was no big deal to you at that point?

Club space, the bouncers throwing him out at dawn, Paula electing to stay. Had you and Paula had nights that had ended like that before? Yes. And she always came home. So it was no big deal to you at that point?

Kevin was starting to worry, but he also knew Paula could be a tough Detroit cookie when she needed to be. She's a big girl. She knows how to handle herself. She knows what she's doing. Yeah, she's not naive. Those growing-up pictures of pretty Paula masked a difficult Michigan home life with an absent father and lots of stepdads. When she was 14, she was dating a 29-year-old man.

Kevin was starting to worry, but he also knew Paula could be a tough Detroit cookie when she needed to be. She's a big girl. She knows how to handle herself. She knows what she's doing. Yeah, she's not naive. Those growing-up pictures of pretty Paula masked a difficult Michigan home life with an absent father and lots of stepdads. When she was 14, she was dating a 29-year-old man.

It was her older sister, Kelly, not her mother, who called the authorities on him.

It was her older sister, Kelly, not her mother, who called the authorities on him.

The man was arrested and convicted of having sex with a minor and sentenced to two years in prison. He's now on a list of sex offenders. Paula, meanwhile, waited till he was released from prison and started dating him again. By then, she was of the age of consent. Old before her time, but still a dreamy little girl in some ways.

The man was arrested and convicted of having sex with a minor and sentenced to two years in prison. He's now on a list of sex offenders. Paula, meanwhile, waited till he was released from prison and started dating him again. By then, she was of the age of consent. Old before her time, but still a dreamy little girl in some ways.

That whole little girl fantasy of being the pin-up girl or the shampoo model or something. She had a lot of Barbies.

That whole little girl fantasy of being the pin-up girl or the shampoo model or something. She had a lot of Barbies.

Paula liked Barbie so much, she tried to become her. Tall, thin, with long golden hair. The world of modeling she hoped to enter wasn't taken with her real-life Barbie looks. But several strip clubs, gentlemen's clubs in the greater Detroit area, were. She danced at the penthouse club there and saved her tips to pay for college tuition until she dropped out.

Paula liked Barbie so much, she tried to become her. Tall, thin, with long golden hair. The world of modeling she hoped to enter wasn't taken with her real-life Barbie looks. But several strip clubs, gentlemen's clubs in the greater Detroit area, were. She danced at the penthouse club there and saved her tips to pay for college tuition until she dropped out.

She seemed to like being the girl on the pole, the man lusting after her.

She seemed to like being the girl on the pole, the man lusting after her.

New Year's 2010 was arriving on a shivery night by Miami standards. But temps in the low 60s weren't enough to chill the South Beach scenesters. And there in the throng, diving into the sizzle, was a couple from Michigan, Paula Sladuski and Kevin Klem, down from Detroit for an impulse long holiday weekend. Kevin, how did the idea of Let's Go Down to South Beach for New Year's come together?

New Year's 2010 was arriving on a shivery night by Miami standards. But temps in the low 60s weren't enough to chill the South Beach scenesters. And there in the throng, diving into the sizzle, was a couple from Michigan, Paula Sladuski and Kevin Klem, down from Detroit for an impulse long holiday weekend. Kevin, how did the idea of Let's Go Down to South Beach for New Year's come together?

So along comes Kevin, new boyfriend, and he has to deal with her being an exotic dancer, a successful one.

So along comes Kevin, new boyfriend, and he has to deal with her being an exotic dancer, a successful one.

The money from stripping was good enough to allow Paula and Kevin to move to Los Angeles, just in time for the housing bubble to knock his budding mortgage and real estate business into the ditch. Paula kept on dancing and paid the bills. For a few months, they moved back and forth between places in Michigan and California.

The money from stripping was good enough to allow Paula and Kevin to move to Los Angeles, just in time for the housing bubble to knock his budding mortgage and real estate business into the ditch. Paula kept on dancing and paid the bills. For a few months, they moved back and forth between places in Michigan and California.

Now she was gone, and he was a guy alone in a Miami Beach hotel with a desk clerk on the phone asking if he was going to roll over the room for another night. Kevin got himself together and went down to ask the manager for help.

Now she was gone, and he was a guy alone in a Miami Beach hotel with a desk clerk on the phone asking if he was going to roll over the room for another night. Kevin got himself together and went down to ask the manager for help.

Miami Beach police told him he'd have to file his missing persons report with the city of Miami, a different jurisdiction. That's where Club Space was located. But the cops wouldn't take his report till 24 hours had passed.

Miami Beach police told him he'd have to file his missing persons report with the city of Miami, a different jurisdiction. That's where Club Space was located. But the cops wouldn't take his report till 24 hours had passed.

Returning to his hotel room in the sleepless night that followed, he got an idea. Call a private detective. He went online and started calling some numbers. The next morning, Monday now, one of them, a private investigator named Dave Wasser, called Kevin back.

Returning to his hotel room in the sleepless night that followed, he got an idea. Call a private detective. He went online and started calling some numbers. The next morning, Monday now, one of them, a private investigator named Dave Wasser, called Kevin back.

After filing a missing persons, Kevin returned to the hotel while Wasser, the private eye and a Miami police detective went to club space and talked to the manager and two of the bouncers who'd worked the door that early Sunday morning. The people at the club said Paula left the club alone shortly after Kevin. Club policy, they say, is to remove both parties after a fight.

After filing a missing persons, Kevin returned to the hotel while Wasser, the private eye and a Miami police detective went to club space and talked to the manager and two of the bouncers who'd worked the door that early Sunday morning. The people at the club said Paula left the club alone shortly after Kevin. Club policy, they say, is to remove both parties after a fight.

Mike Samuels is the front door manager.

Mike Samuels is the front door manager.

While his private detective followed up wafer-thin leads, Kevin decided to call the medical examiner's office.

While his private detective followed up wafer-thin leads, Kevin decided to call the medical examiner's office.

The detectives asked Kevin, did Paula have any body piercings? Yes, he said, she did.

The detectives asked Kevin, did Paula have any body piercings? Yes, he said, she did.

Detectives then checked out some photos of Paula on Kevin's iPhone. They studied an earring.

Detectives then checked out some photos of Paula on Kevin's iPhone. They studied an earring.

The earring, Paula's earring, had been found at the scene of a burning dumpster. And inside the dumpster, they found the charred body of a person they thought was a female. And it turned out to be gruesome beyond relief.

The earring, Paula's earring, had been found at the scene of a burning dumpster. And inside the dumpster, they found the charred body of a person they thought was a female. And it turned out to be gruesome beyond relief.

Kevin was driven to the police station in North Miami, near where Paula's remains had been found, about 10 miles north of the dance club. They had questions for him, intense ones. How was he going to explain what police were learning about a violent domestic history with his now-murdered girlfriend, the woman found in a burning dumpster?

Kevin was driven to the police station in North Miami, near where Paula's remains had been found, about 10 miles north of the dance club. They had questions for him, intense ones. How was he going to explain what police were learning about a violent domestic history with his now-murdered girlfriend, the woman found in a burning dumpster?

And how was he going to explain that lover's quarrel at the club the very night of the murder?

And how was he going to explain that lover's quarrel at the club the very night of the murder?

When Dateline Continues... Nine o'clock Sunday night on New Year's weekend, 2010, residents of a neighborhood in North Miami began calling it in. A small dumpster behind a propane gas dealership was on fire. Flames were shooting out. A body, it turned out, had been set on fire.

When Dateline Continues... Nine o'clock Sunday night on New Year's weekend, 2010, residents of a neighborhood in North Miami began calling it in. A small dumpster behind a propane gas dealership was on fire. Flames were shooting out. A body, it turned out, had been set on fire.

It was Detective Michael Gaudio's responsibility to learn who the victim was and how it was that he or she, they couldn't tell at first, had been thrown away and torched. At the morgue, the M.E. confirmed everyone's suspicions. It was a woman's charred body. In cop talk, a Jane Doe.

It was Detective Michael Gaudio's responsibility to learn who the victim was and how it was that he or she, they couldn't tell at first, had been thrown away and torched. At the morgue, the M.E. confirmed everyone's suspicions. It was a woman's charred body. In cop talk, a Jane Doe.

Hey, Andrea. How are you?

Hey, Andrea. How are you?

Oh, I so well remember standing there looking at that little building, Andrea. Here's Perugia, this medieval beauty of a town known for making chocolate and educating students. And yet here I was before this house that was all over the headlines called the House of Horrors. And it turned out to be all of that.

Oh, I so well remember standing there looking at that little building, Andrea. Here's Perugia, this medieval beauty of a town known for making chocolate and educating students. And yet here I was before this house that was all over the headlines called the House of Horrors. And it turned out to be all of that.

Well, our most interesting stop on that trip, we went to the office of the chief prosecutor. And he sat us down and he took us through this very lurid operatic theory of the crime. He said there were three people involved here. It was three on one. It was a sex game gone wrong.

Well, our most interesting stop on that trip, we went to the office of the chief prosecutor. And he sat us down and he took us through this very lurid operatic theory of the crime. He said there were three people involved here. It was three on one. It was a sex game gone wrong.

Amanda Knox holding the victim with a knife under her chin, her boyfriend of just a few days, an Italian boyfriend, and a third man who sexually assaulted the roommate. And it all took place in that little cottage, the House of Horrors.

Amanda Knox holding the victim with a knife under her chin, her boyfriend of just a few days, an Italian boyfriend, and a third man who sexually assaulted the roommate. And it all took place in that little cottage, the House of Horrors.

The Italian authorities leaked every bit of information I think they had at the time, especially to the British tabloids. The media had a field day when it found Amanda's MySpace webpage. Her online nickname was Foxy Noxy. Who was Foxy Noxy, this young woman seen in her high school photo playing soccer? And it was nothing more than that. That was an allusion to her ability to play soccer.

The Italian authorities leaked every bit of information I think they had at the time, especially to the British tabloids. The media had a field day when it found Amanda's MySpace webpage. Her online nickname was Foxy Noxy. Who was Foxy Noxy, this young woman seen in her high school photo playing soccer? And it was nothing more than that. That was an allusion to her ability to play soccer.

But somehow this appellation that she was known as Foxy Noxy became this portrayal of a promiscuous young American woman.

But somehow this appellation that she was known as Foxy Noxy became this portrayal of a promiscuous young American woman.

Exactly. The court of public opinion had decided, we've seen her in the paper every day. What is she doing? Giggling while she's buying lingerie with her boyfriend. What is the story we hear about being in the police station doing cartwheels? It all added up to a guilty on that side of the Atlantic.

Exactly. The court of public opinion had decided, we've seen her in the paper every day. What is she doing? Giggling while she's buying lingerie with her boyfriend. What is the story we hear about being in the police station doing cartwheels? It all added up to a guilty on that side of the Atlantic.

She didn't. They bring her in, and she doesn't have an attorney, and she's being interrogated by the homicide detectives in Italian. And she gives up what they said at the time was something like a confession, where she seemed to implicate herself by being in the house. She recalled the screams of Meredith. And the other thing that happened is that they said, who is the third man?

She didn't. They bring her in, and she doesn't have an attorney, and she's being interrogated by the homicide detectives in Italian. And she gives up what they said at the time was something like a confession, where she seemed to implicate herself by being in the house. She recalled the screams of Meredith. And the other thing that happened is that they said, who is the third man?

And Amanda Knox, under interrogation, gave up the name of her boss, the owner of a small cafe where she part-time waitressed in town. And she said, he was the guy. He's your third man. None of those things turned out to be true.

And Amanda Knox, under interrogation, gave up the name of her boss, the owner of a small cafe where she part-time waitressed in town. And she said, he was the guy. He's your third man. None of those things turned out to be true.

I wasn't in Italy at the time, but I was watching the coverage, of course, and I remember feeling so sorry for her. She was so disturbed. Her face was just—it revealed everything that was going on.

I wasn't in Italy at the time, but I was watching the coverage, of course, and I remember feeling so sorry for her. She was so disturbed. Her face was just—it revealed everything that was going on.

Sobbing, sobbing at her table. And just like that, it was over. 26 years for Amanda, 25 for her one-time boyfriend.

Sobbing, sobbing at her table. And just like that, it was over. 26 years for Amanda, 25 for her one-time boyfriend.

Well, it goes to an appeals court. And here it's very interesting because everything shifts to Amanda Knox's favor. They throw out all of the forensic evidence as junk science, incompetently collected and processed. And then there's a second trial. And once again, she was found guilty. And then the appellate court did something interesting.

Well, it goes to an appeals court. And here it's very interesting because everything shifts to Amanda Knox's favor. They throw out all of the forensic evidence as junk science, incompetently collected and processed. And then there's a second trial. And once again, she was found guilty. And then the appellate court did something interesting.

They not only said there is not enough evidence to support a guilty verdict, they said she did not do it. You've got the wrong person here. So after nearly four years in prison, she was completely exonerated.

They not only said there is not enough evidence to support a guilty verdict, they said she did not do it. You've got the wrong person here. So after nearly four years in prison, she was completely exonerated.

The boyfriend was let go, too.

The boyfriend was let go, too.

I think you could say that the events of her early 20s have really shaped the person she is today. She's living back in Seattle, as I understand it. She's married with children and has become a vocal advocate for those who are wrongfully accused, wrongfully convicted. And yes, she went back to Perugia to revisit it all. It's not a case that she lets go.

I think you could say that the events of her early 20s have really shaped the person she is today. She's living back in Seattle, as I understand it. She's married with children and has become a vocal advocate for those who are wrongfully accused, wrongfully convicted. And yes, she went back to Perugia to revisit it all. It's not a case that she lets go.

And unfortunately for Amanda, Andrea, it's not a case that a lot of members of the general public will let go either. Yeah.

And unfortunately for Amanda, Andrea, it's not a case that a lot of members of the general public will let go either. Yeah.

And she doesn't deserve that. And no one really remembers the name of the victim that easily, Meredith Kircher. You can't call that up as easily as you can call up Foxy Knoxie.

And she doesn't deserve that. And no one really remembers the name of the victim that easily, Meredith Kircher. You can't call that up as easily as you can call up Foxy Knoxie.

It's been interesting to retrieve some of these memories again. Yeah.

It's been interesting to retrieve some of these memories again. Yeah.

Was this murder for hire? Did someone know that he had plans for something?

Was this murder for hire? Did someone know that he had plans for something?

Here I was before this house that was all over the headlines called the House of Horrors. And it turned out to be all of that.

Here I was before this house that was all over the headlines called the House of Horrors. And it turned out to be all of that.

Hey, Dennis. Hey, Keith. How are you? I'm good. It's nice to see your face. Nice to see you. It makes my day. It releases the endorphins.

Hey, Dennis. Hey, Keith. How are you? I'm good. It's nice to see your face. Nice to see you. It makes my day. It releases the endorphins.

And you'll be there, right, Andrea? Yes. But I was surprised by the gauntlet of people in front of the courthouse. Turtle Boy. Friends of Karen. Yeah.

And you'll be there, right, Andrea? Yes. But I was surprised by the gauntlet of people in front of the courthouse. Turtle Boy. Friends of Karen. Yeah.

This is the case, Andrea, of the woman named Jennifer Dulos, who lived in New Canaan, Connecticut. She came back from dropping her kids off to school and was never seen again. It was believed that her husband had murdered her in the garage. The authorities were closing in on the husband, Fotis Doulos, but before they could take him to trial, he ended up killing himself.

This is the case, Andrea, of the woman named Jennifer Dulos, who lived in New Canaan, Connecticut. She came back from dropping her kids off to school and was never seen again. It was believed that her husband had murdered her in the garage. The authorities were closing in on the husband, Fotis Doulos, but before they could take him to trial, he ended up killing himself.

So who was Michelle Chaconis? Well, she was the live-in girlfriend of this guy, Fotis Doulos, and she was then charged with conspiracy to cover up, creating his alibi, helping in sort of aiding and abetting fashion.

So who was Michelle Chaconis? Well, she was the live-in girlfriend of this guy, Fotis Doulos, and she was then charged with conspiracy to cover up, creating his alibi, helping in sort of aiding and abetting fashion.

Yeah, it's funny what you remember after these stories, but in this case, they all agreed to come in and sit down in a circle and tell stories about their lost friend, Jennifer.

Yeah, it's funny what you remember after these stories, but in this case, they all agreed to come in and sit down in a circle and tell stories about their lost friend, Jennifer.

I learned something about the nature of friendship, because these women, who really didn't know one another outside of their common connector of Jennifer, all agreed to go to the trial to just stand watch on her behalf. She's still never been found to this day, right? That's correct.

I learned something about the nature of friendship, because these women, who really didn't know one another outside of their common connector of Jennifer, all agreed to go to the trial to just stand watch on her behalf. She's still never been found to this day, right? That's correct.

There's a missing half hour, and I wondered if that's where somehow the body was moved. Did somebody help? I don't know.

There's a missing half hour, and I wondered if that's where somehow the body was moved. Did somebody help? I don't know.

Dropped five kids off and then never be seen again.

Dropped five kids off and then never be seen again.

Yeah. As I think of it, the case against Michelle Cherkonis, the girlfriend, was kind of forensic light. They had kind of interesting things, but nothing added up to the smoking gun. And yet the jury came back very quickly, found her guilty, and she was sent away for 14 and a half years. But they still don't know where the body is.

Yeah. As I think of it, the case against Michelle Cherkonis, the girlfriend, was kind of forensic light. They had kind of interesting things, but nothing added up to the smoking gun. And yet the jury came back very quickly, found her guilty, and she was sent away for 14 and a half years. But they still don't know where the body is.

Boy, I'm exhausted already. We did all that? Jeez.

Boy, I'm exhausted already. We did all that? Jeez.

It depends on the story. It seems to me that a compelling narration so often beats the facts or the truth.

It depends on the story. It seems to me that a compelling narration so often beats the facts or the truth.

You want to impose a story on it that is more appealing to you. And then it moves into the streamers.

You want to impose a story on it that is more appealing to you. And then it moves into the streamers.

I know the answer to this question. I vote for Dennis, I think.

I know the answer to this question. I vote for Dennis, I think.

I think we compared driver's licenses once, Keith, and I think I've got you two, three months or something.

I think we compared driver's licenses once, Keith, and I think I've got you two, three months or something.

No, I was sort of the second wave.

No, I was sort of the second wave.

She was the most wanted in the whole dramatic piece here. And she bought a one-way ticket to Vietnam, which is a non-extraditable country. And just as they're in the boarding jetway of the plane that's going to take them overseas, here comes the FBI and a SWAT team. And they take them down, and they're wrestling for the phone, and she's charged with first-degree murder. Anyway, she's...

She was the most wanted in the whole dramatic piece here. And she bought a one-way ticket to Vietnam, which is a non-extraditable country. And just as they're in the boarding jetway of the plane that's going to take them overseas, here comes the FBI and a SWAT team. And they take them down, and they're wrestling for the phone, and she's charged with first-degree murder. Anyway, she's...

waiting to go on trial. And last September, the jury had been picked and were waiting for opening arguments. And the judge says, come in chambers here. And then it turns out that her attorney was ruled by the court to have a conflict of interest and could not represent her. So he's thrown off the case, which puts everything back months and months and months.

waiting to go on trial. And last September, the jury had been picked and were waiting for opening arguments. And the judge says, come in chambers here. And then it turns out that her attorney was ruled by the court to have a conflict of interest and could not represent her. So he's thrown off the case, which puts everything back months and months and months.

So now we think that grandmother, Donna Adelson, is going to go on trial maybe next June. Wait and see.

So now we think that grandmother, Donna Adelson, is going to go on trial maybe next June. Wait and see.

Yeah, we did. I had interviewed Karen Reid.

Yeah, we did. I had interviewed Karen Reid.

In March, the year before the trial. And, you know, she was poised and confident. The highlights that I remember from that interview, Andrew, is that she says she went back to her place and... and then woke up in the middle of the night and lo and behold, he's not there. And she goes back to the scene and then blurts out, did I hit him? You know, that would come back to haunt her.

In March, the year before the trial. And, you know, she was poised and confident. The highlights that I remember from that interview, Andrew, is that she says she went back to her place and... and then woke up in the middle of the night and lo and behold, he's not there. And she goes back to the scene and then blurts out, did I hit him? You know, that would come back to haunt her.

If you had told me that this was scripted in a TV show, this was like too unbelievable.

If you had told me that this was scripted in a TV show, this was like too unbelievable.

Thanks for having me.

Thanks for having me.

If you, you know, believe the Rico case, Young Thug is sort of the head of the snake that extends throughout, you know, a large swath of criminality in Atlanta, which the DA has tied to a rise in crime in the city and has sort of put that at the feet of Young Thug and YSL. That's his record label.

If you, you know, believe the Rico case, Young Thug is sort of the head of the snake that extends throughout, you know, a large swath of criminality in Atlanta, which the DA has tied to a rise in crime in the city and has sort of put that at the feet of Young Thug and YSL. That's his record label.

Yeah, it's the idea that he is the head of this crime syndicate, this record label YSL that has done, you know, a lot of crime and violence in the city.

Yeah, it's the idea that he is the head of this crime syndicate, this record label YSL that has done, you know, a lot of crime and violence in the city.

Yeah, yeah. I mean, this is a huge case. This is a huge, sprawling case. And there are still a few people who are still on trial.

Yeah, yeah. I mean, this is a huge case. This is a huge, sprawling case. And there are still a few people who are still on trial.

Yeah, I mean, rap on trial is a huge issue that has gone back many years. That is a dangerous, slippery slope in hip-hop. There's a lot of people who make lyrics. If you based crimes on lyrics, almost every rapper, not even just rapper, a lot of musicians themselves would go to jail to base criminality on fictional characters. It's extremely dangerous.

Yeah, I mean, rap on trial is a huge issue that has gone back many years. That is a dangerous, slippery slope in hip-hop. There's a lot of people who make lyrics. If you based crimes on lyrics, almost every rapper, not even just rapper, a lot of musicians themselves would go to jail to base criminality on fictional characters. It's extremely dangerous.

Yeah. I mean, it's been a mess. Like, there's no other way to put it. There's been multiple judges. There's been lawyers who've been tossed. There have been viral testimonies from, you know, the guy who said he was high on the stand. The person said he didn't know when he was born and things like that. I mean, this has been as messy a court case as you can imagine.

Yeah. I mean, it's been a mess. Like, there's no other way to put it. There's been multiple judges. There's been lawyers who've been tossed. There have been viral testimonies from, you know, the guy who said he was high on the stand. The person said he didn't know when he was born and things like that. I mean, this has been as messy a court case as you can imagine.

If it wasn't such a serious case, this would be something like out of an episode of the TV show Atlanta. This was really around the city of Atlanta, the big water cooler talk, the barbershop. I mean, my barbershop had the trial on 24-7 when I was in there.

If it wasn't such a serious case, this would be something like out of an episode of the TV show Atlanta. This was really around the city of Atlanta, the big water cooler talk, the barbershop. I mean, my barbershop had the trial on 24-7 when I was in there.

Part of this comes out of this sort of calamitous thing that happened a couple of weeks ago, which they had a witness sort of read out an Instagram caption. And it had the hashtag...

Part of this comes out of this sort of calamitous thing that happened a couple of weeks ago, which they had a witness sort of read out an Instagram caption. And it had the hashtag...

Yeah. So the defense was trying to make an argument that this was a prejudicial factor in this, that the jury found out that somebody was in jail when they're when they're trying to keep the jury sort of out of that, that information. And that really led to a moment where both sides sort of saw that a plea deal may be the quickest way and maybe the best way to get out of this.

Yeah. So the defense was trying to make an argument that this was a prejudicial factor in this, that the jury found out that somebody was in jail when they're when they're trying to keep the jury sort of out of that, that information. And that really led to a moment where both sides sort of saw that a plea deal may be the quickest way and maybe the best way to get out of this.

So what he has pled guilty to was participation in a gang. He pled guilty to three drug charges, two gun charges. He also pleaded no contest to the charges of being the leader in the gang and conspiring to violate the RICO.

So what he has pled guilty to was participation in a gang. He pled guilty to three drug charges, two gun charges. He also pleaded no contest to the charges of being the leader in the gang and conspiring to violate the RICO.

Yeah, basically, it's kind of an impasse.

Yeah, basically, it's kind of an impasse.

Yeah, so he made about a 10-minute speech. He did apologize. He thanked the judge being fair. Said he learned a lot in these last two and a half years that he's been locked up.

Yeah, so he made about a 10-minute speech. He did apologize. He thanked the judge being fair. Said he learned a lot in these last two and a half years that he's been locked up.

He cracked a couple of jokes. He talked about the bailiffs and everybody getting overtime. And he said he would hope he never see the judge again.

He cracked a couple of jokes. He talked about the bailiffs and everybody getting overtime. And he said he would hope he never see the judge again.

What did she do? She gave him time served, which has been two and a half years, and then 15 years of probation on top of that. And if he violates that probation, there's a 20-year sentence that's sort of hanging over his head. So he gets to walk free, but it's going to be a really challenging next 15 years for him. He has a lot of restrictions on him about what he can and cannot do.

What did she do? She gave him time served, which has been two and a half years, and then 15 years of probation on top of that. And if he violates that probation, there's a 20-year sentence that's sort of hanging over his head. So he gets to walk free, but it's going to be a really challenging next 15 years for him. He has a lot of restrictions on him about what he can and cannot do.

Yeah, I mean, like he can't be in Atlanta where he's from unless there's funerals, things like that. He cannot, quote unquote, promote gang activity in his music or hang around any, quote unquote, gang members, except for like his brother and Gunna, who's a collaborator. And he's subjected to search and seizure at any point over the next 15 years, which to me, Uh, that feels like a hell in itself.

Yeah, I mean, like he can't be in Atlanta where he's from unless there's funerals, things like that. He cannot, quote unquote, promote gang activity in his music or hang around any, quote unquote, gang members, except for like his brother and Gunna, who's a collaborator. And he's subjected to search and seizure at any point over the next 15 years, which to me, Uh, that feels like a hell in itself.

Like, that's, it's not jail, but it does feel, it feels dangerous. I mean, like, what are things that you say that promotes gang activity in your music, right? And it's sort of up to somebody's, um, discretion to, Is there any public outcry that he got off too easy? A lot of the public outcry is about the trial itself. The fact that this trial has taken so long and it's taken a lot of resources.

Like, that's, it's not jail, but it does feel, it feels dangerous. I mean, like, what are things that you say that promotes gang activity in your music, right? And it's sort of up to somebody's, um, discretion to, Is there any public outcry that he got off too easy? A lot of the public outcry is about the trial itself. The fact that this trial has taken so long and it's taken a lot of resources.

There's really nothing to show for it. You know, there's no belief that the streets of Atlanta are any safer.

There's really nothing to show for it. You know, there's no belief that the streets of Atlanta are any safer.

Thank you.

Thank you.

They were about to start jury selection, and the attorney said, we've had it with him. So it's crazy.

They were about to start jury selection, and the attorney said, we've had it with him. So it's crazy.

Hey, Dennis. Hey, Keith. How are you? I'm good. It's nice to see your face. Nice to see you. It makes my day. It releases the endorphins.

Hey, Dennis. Hey, Keith. How are you? I'm good. It's nice to see your face. Nice to see you. It makes my day. It releases the endorphins.

And you'll be there, right, Andrea? Yes. But I was surprised by the gauntlet of people in front of the courthouse. Turtle Boy. Friends of Karen. Yeah.

And you'll be there, right, Andrea? Yes. But I was surprised by the gauntlet of people in front of the courthouse. Turtle Boy. Friends of Karen. Yeah.

This is the case, Andrea, of the woman named Jennifer Dulos, who lived in New Canaan, Connecticut. She came back from dropping her kids off to school and was never seen again. It was believed that her husband had murdered her in the garage. The authorities were closing in on the husband, Fotis Doulos, but before they could take him to trial, he ended up killing himself.

This is the case, Andrea, of the woman named Jennifer Dulos, who lived in New Canaan, Connecticut. She came back from dropping her kids off to school and was never seen again. It was believed that her husband had murdered her in the garage. The authorities were closing in on the husband, Fotis Doulos, but before they could take him to trial, he ended up killing himself.

So who was Michelle Chaconis? Well, she was the live-in girlfriend of this guy, Fotis Doulos, and she was then charged with conspiracy to cover up, creating his alibi, helping in sort of aiding and abetting fashion.

So who was Michelle Chaconis? Well, she was the live-in girlfriend of this guy, Fotis Doulos, and she was then charged with conspiracy to cover up, creating his alibi, helping in sort of aiding and abetting fashion.

Yeah, it's funny what you remember after these stories, but in this case, they all agreed to come in and sit down in a circle and tell stories about their lost friend, Jennifer.

Yeah, it's funny what you remember after these stories, but in this case, they all agreed to come in and sit down in a circle and tell stories about their lost friend, Jennifer.

I learned something about the nature of friendship, because these women, who really didn't know one another outside of their common connector of Jennifer, all agreed to go to the trial to just stand watch on her behalf. She's still never been found to this day, right? That's correct.

I learned something about the nature of friendship, because these women, who really didn't know one another outside of their common connector of Jennifer, all agreed to go to the trial to just stand watch on her behalf. She's still never been found to this day, right? That's correct.

There's a missing half hour, and I wondered if that's where somehow the body was moved. Did somebody help? I don't know.

There's a missing half hour, and I wondered if that's where somehow the body was moved. Did somebody help? I don't know.

Dropped five kids off and then never be seen again.

Dropped five kids off and then never be seen again.

Yeah. As I think of it, the case against Michelle Cherkonis, the girlfriend, was kind of forensic light. They had kind of interesting things, but nothing added up to the smoking gun. And yet the jury came back very quickly, found her guilty, and she was sent away for 14 and a half years. But they still don't know where the body is.

Yeah. As I think of it, the case against Michelle Cherkonis, the girlfriend, was kind of forensic light. They had kind of interesting things, but nothing added up to the smoking gun. And yet the jury came back very quickly, found her guilty, and she was sent away for 14 and a half years. But they still don't know where the body is.

Boy, I'm exhausted already. We did all that? Jeez.

Boy, I'm exhausted already. We did all that? Jeez.

It depends on the story. It seems to me that a compelling narration so often beats the facts or the truth.

It depends on the story. It seems to me that a compelling narration so often beats the facts or the truth.

You want to impose a story on it that is more appealing to you. And then it moves into the streamers.

You want to impose a story on it that is more appealing to you. And then it moves into the streamers.

I know the answer to this question. I vote for Dennis, I think.

I know the answer to this question. I vote for Dennis, I think.

I think we compared driver's licenses once, Keith, and I think I've got you two, three months or something.

I think we compared driver's licenses once, Keith, and I think I've got you two, three months or something.

No, I was sort of the second wave.

No, I was sort of the second wave.

She was the most wanted in the whole dramatic piece here. And she bought a one-way ticket to Vietnam, which is a non-extraditable country. And just as they're in the boarding jetway of the plane that's going to take them overseas, here comes the FBI and a SWAT team. And they take them down, and they're wrestling for the phone, and she's charged with first-degree murder. Anyway, she's...

She was the most wanted in the whole dramatic piece here. And she bought a one-way ticket to Vietnam, which is a non-extraditable country. And just as they're in the boarding jetway of the plane that's going to take them overseas, here comes the FBI and a SWAT team. And they take them down, and they're wrestling for the phone, and she's charged with first-degree murder. Anyway, she's...

waiting to go on trial. And last September, the jury had been picked and were waiting for opening arguments. And the judge says, come in chambers here. And then it turns out that her attorney was ruled by the court to have a conflict of interest and could not represent her. So he's thrown off the case, which puts everything back months and months and months.

waiting to go on trial. And last September, the jury had been picked and were waiting for opening arguments. And the judge says, come in chambers here. And then it turns out that her attorney was ruled by the court to have a conflict of interest and could not represent her. So he's thrown off the case, which puts everything back months and months and months.

So now we think that grandmother, Donna Adelson, is going to go on trial maybe next June. Wait and see.

So now we think that grandmother, Donna Adelson, is going to go on trial maybe next June. Wait and see.

Yeah, we did. I had interviewed Karen Reid.

Yeah, we did. I had interviewed Karen Reid.

In March, the year before the trial. And, you know, she was poised and confident. The highlights that I remember from that interview, Andrew, is that she says she went back to her place and... and then woke up in the middle of the night and lo and behold, he's not there. And she goes back to the scene and then blurts out, did I hit him? You know, that would come back to haunt her.

In March, the year before the trial. And, you know, she was poised and confident. The highlights that I remember from that interview, Andrew, is that she says she went back to her place and... and then woke up in the middle of the night and lo and behold, he's not there. And she goes back to the scene and then blurts out, did I hit him? You know, that would come back to haunt her.

Hey, Dennis. Hey, Keith. How are you? I'm good. It's nice to see your face. Nice to see you. It makes my day. It releases the endorphins.

And you'll be there, right, Andrea? Yes. But I was surprised by the gauntlet of people in front of the courthouse. Turtle Boy. Friends of Karen. Yeah.

This is the case, Andrea, of the woman named Jennifer Dulos, who lived in New Canaan, Connecticut. She came back from dropping her kids off to school and was never seen again. It was believed that her husband had murdered her in the garage. The authorities were closing in on the husband, Fotis Doulos, but before they could take him to trial, he ended up killing himself.

So who was Michelle Chaconis? Well, she was the live-in girlfriend of this guy, Fotis Doulos, and she was then charged with conspiracy to cover up, creating his alibi, helping in sort of aiding and abetting fashion.

Yeah, it's funny what you remember after these stories, but in this case, they all agreed to come in and sit down in a circle and tell stories about their lost friend, Jennifer.

I learned something about the nature of friendship, because these women, who really didn't know one another outside of their common connector of Jennifer, all agreed to go to the trial to just stand watch on her behalf. She's still never been found to this day, right? That's correct.

There's a missing half hour, and I wondered if that's where somehow the body was moved. Did somebody help? I don't know.

Dropped five kids off and then never be seen again.

Yeah. As I think of it, the case against Michelle Cherkonis, the girlfriend, was kind of forensic light. They had kind of interesting things, but nothing added up to the smoking gun. And yet the jury came back very quickly, found her guilty, and she was sent away for 14 and a half years. But they still don't know where the body is.

Boy, I'm exhausted already. We did all that? Jeez.

It depends on the story. It seems to me that a compelling narration so often beats the facts or the truth.

You want to impose a story on it that is more appealing to you. And then it moves into the streamers.

I know the answer to this question. I vote for Dennis, I think.

I think we compared driver's licenses once, Keith, and I think I've got you two, three months or something.

No, I was sort of the second wave.

She was the most wanted in the whole dramatic piece here. And she bought a one-way ticket to Vietnam, which is a non-extraditable country. And just as they're in the boarding jetway of the plane that's going to take them overseas, here comes the FBI and a SWAT team. And they take them down, and they're wrestling for the phone, and she's charged with first-degree murder. Anyway, she's...

waiting to go on trial. And last September, the jury had been picked and were waiting for opening arguments. And the judge says, come in chambers here. And then it turns out that her attorney was ruled by the court to have a conflict of interest and could not represent her. So he's thrown off the case, which puts everything back months and months and months.

So now we think that grandmother, Donna Adelson, is going to go on trial maybe next June. Wait and see.

Yeah, we did. I had interviewed Karen Reid.

In March, the year before the trial. And, you know, she was poised and confident. The highlights that I remember from that interview, Andrew, is that she says she went back to her place and... and then woke up in the middle of the night and lo and behold, he's not there. And she goes back to the scene and then blurts out, did I hit him? You know, that would come back to haunt her.

They were about to start jury selection, and the attorney said, we've had it with him. So it's crazy.

If you had told me that this was scripted in a TV show, this was like too unbelievable.

Thanks for having me.

If you, you know, believe the Rico case, Young Thug is sort of the head of the snake that extends throughout, you know, a large swath of criminality in Atlanta, which the DA has tied to a rise in crime in the city and has sort of put that at the feet of Young Thug and YSL. That's his record label.

Yeah, it's the idea that he is the head of this crime syndicate, this record label YSL that has done, you know, a lot of crime and violence in the city.

Yeah, yeah. I mean, this is a huge case. This is a huge, sprawling case. And there are still a few people who are still on trial.

Yeah, I mean, rap on trial is a huge issue that has gone back many years. That is a dangerous, slippery slope in hip-hop. There's a lot of people who make lyrics. If you based crimes on lyrics, almost every rapper, not even just rapper, a lot of musicians themselves would go to jail to base criminality on fictional characters. It's extremely dangerous.

Yeah. I mean, it's been a mess. Like, there's no other way to put it. There's been multiple judges. There's been lawyers who've been tossed. There have been viral testimonies from, you know, the guy who said he was high on the stand. The person said he didn't know when he was born and things like that. I mean, this has been as messy a court case as you can imagine.

If it wasn't such a serious case, this would be something like out of an episode of the TV show Atlanta. This was really around the city of Atlanta, the big water cooler talk, the barbershop. I mean, my barbershop had the trial on 24-7 when I was in there.

Part of this comes out of this sort of calamitous thing that happened a couple of weeks ago, which they had a witness sort of read out an Instagram caption. And it had the hashtag...

Yeah. So the defense was trying to make an argument that this was a prejudicial factor in this, that the jury found out that somebody was in jail when they're when they're trying to keep the jury sort of out of that, that information. And that really led to a moment where both sides sort of saw that a plea deal may be the quickest way and maybe the best way to get out of this.

So what he has pled guilty to was participation in a gang. He pled guilty to three drug charges, two gun charges. He also pleaded no contest to the charges of being the leader in the gang and conspiring to violate the RICO.

Yeah, basically, it's kind of an impasse.

Yeah, so he made about a 10-minute speech. He did apologize. He thanked the judge being fair. Said he learned a lot in these last two and a half years that he's been locked up.

He cracked a couple of jokes. He talked about the bailiffs and everybody getting overtime. And he said he would hope he never see the judge again.

What did she do? She gave him time served, which has been two and a half years, and then 15 years of probation on top of that. And if he violates that probation, there's a 20-year sentence that's sort of hanging over his head. So he gets to walk free, but it's going to be a really challenging next 15 years for him. He has a lot of restrictions on him about what he can and cannot do.

Yeah, I mean, like he can't be in Atlanta where he's from unless there's funerals, things like that. He cannot, quote unquote, promote gang activity in his music or hang around any, quote unquote, gang members, except for like his brother and Gunna, who's a collaborator. And he's subjected to search and seizure at any point over the next 15 years, which to me, Uh, that feels like a hell in itself.

Like, that's, it's not jail, but it does feel, it feels dangerous. I mean, like, what are things that you say that promotes gang activity in your music, right? And it's sort of up to somebody's, um, discretion to, Is there any public outcry that he got off too easy? A lot of the public outcry is about the trial itself. The fact that this trial has taken so long and it's taken a lot of resources.

There's really nothing to show for it. You know, there's no belief that the streets of Atlanta are any safer.

Thank you.