David Harbour

What, is there one guy left doing that in New York? Are you with the one guy? What is he, 90? Yes.

The traditional.

Alright, so you're doing that and you're doing like, you know, he doesn't talk much. Ja, genau.

Fühlst du dich da hin? Fühlst du dich da wirklich hin? Ich meine, ich weiß, dass das die Idee ist.

No Zooms with the old man.

But don't you already know what's wrong with you?

Okay, ich habe Medikamente verhindert. Ja, okay.

Ich kann nicht warten.

Und das war, das war profund. Weil ich weiß, dass ich nicht depressiv bin. Ich habe Anxiety-Probleme, die mich an einem gewissen Niveau zu dem Punkt der Obsessivität zerstören. Das ist die Reise für mich. Und ich habe mitgemacht, weil ich immer gesagt habe, dass es viele Gründe gibt, sich so zu fühlen. Und wenn es niemand anderes ist, dann sind sie die Dummies. Natürlich, du bist einfach lebendig.

I grew up with a similar roller coaster in a slightly different theme park. Let's do it. Let's get in it. I was just fucking thrilled to have him back. And You know him. He's the guy, the sheriff on Stranger Things. He did the show a while back. It was episode 921 in the archives. He's been part of the Marvel Universe since the Black Widow movie. And now he's in the new Marvel movie Thunderbolts.

Ja, und es ist einfach so, dass ich weiß, was ich tun soll. Ich weiß nicht, was die Restung der Meinung ist. Because if my brain rests even for a second, it goes like, you want some things to worry about? I got some stuff. Let's pop open the folder. None of them, they could all happen, but they probably won't, but we could work them out. So it's a catastrophic thing. Okay. Fine. Yes.

But I've always been against the SSRIs only because... Amen. Ich fühle sie. Und ich fühle, was sie tun. Und was ich in den letzten Jahren gesagt habe, ist, dass ich nicht sicher bin, dass all meine Kreativität von diesem kommt. Wie ein Goldmining in einem Wasser von Panik.

Yeah, but the big bit he used to do is like, you don't get rid of them, they're just inside you. And they've been taken hostage. So, you know, people are going like, how are you feeling? You're like, great. And there's some guy inside of you, you go, get me out of here. Anyway, so here's what happens with the cat. Okay. And it spoke to me. Alright, so I go away and my cat has anxiety.

He freaks out, apparently. Like, to the point where, like, it was just, first it was just, you know, vomiting and now, then he gets colitis and he has diarrhea all over the house when I'm gone. And now it's escalated to him beating the shit out of the other cats. Like, I came home from being away for like three days and all the cats were hissing at each other.

This little fucker had fucked everything up. He's shitting everywhere. You know, it's a disaster. You know, there's piss everywhere. And he's just fucking lost his mind. And my vet says, well, we should put him on the Prozac because that'll help his behavior. Yes, right? So I project all of my feelings about Prozac onto the cat.

But I think the moment of profundity is that my struggle is like, okay, so this cat shits all over everything and fucks with all the other cats to the point where there's total chaos. But don't I want him to be his authentic self? Ha! And how is that not relatable? I mean, because it's the same thing with me, right? It's like, you know, like, why would I want to taper or temper?

Natürlich, ich lebe damit jetzt. Ich habe meinen Katzen auf Prozac gesetzt und ich sehe jetzt, dass er sich nicht selbst hat. Er ist verloren. Er ist unverzweifelt. Aber er ist nicht glücklich, er ist nicht glücklich, er wandert herum. Das ist nicht, was ich projiziere. Nein, nein. Was ich projiziere, ist, wer bin ich? Warum hast du mir das gemacht? Vorher hatte ich einen Zweifel.

Ich könnte dich auf diesen Mann schlagen, ich könnte dich auf deinen Bett schlagen. Who am I without shitting on the bed and beating up on the older guy? Yeah. Okay, well, okay, fine. So let's say there's no self. Okay.

Yeah, but what makes them right? They're just trying to deal with problems too. I mean, like the approach is like, well, there's no self. Well, that makes this suffering easier. Korrekt. Und ist das nicht der Punkt? Ist es? Ich weiß es nicht. Ich meine... Ist das das, was du auf deinem Gravestone willst? Also, du weißt, er glaubte nicht, dass er jemand war. Und das hat ihm geholfen.

Gott sei Dank.

Yes. When I go down the rabbit hole of no self, what I usually come up with is like, I have one, he just happens to be seven. But you really want to keep him around.

Nein, nein, ich bin mir sicher, dass es funktioniert. Aber was es von dir braucht, wie ich früher hatte, ich hatte diese Linie, wo ich sagte, du weißt, der Monster, den ich geschaffen habe, um den Kind im Inneren zu schützen, ist manchmal schwierig zu managen. Right? Yeah, exactly. Yeah, but so the challenge is, and I'm there too. I guess it's ego, right? You know, at this age. Yes. Right.

I like them. Get a kick out of them. So, look, you guys, you know, we live in an age, this will be known as the, when is everyone going to shut the fuck up era? Just people blathering everywhere. You know, I get overwhelmed, and I don't know if I've talked about this specifically, because, look, we do almost an analog thing here. Here at WTF Central, Me and Brendan do this thing.

So because I feel it. You know, I you know, I can be vulnerable in certain situations, usually with strangers for an hour. People I respect. And then they go away. You know, I don't check in with you tomorrow. I'm not going to be like. Absolutely. I mean, I might have tried the first time. Yeah. What are you doing? What do you mean? What am I doing?

What do you mean, it's terrifying?

I'm glad we nipped that friendship in the bud. Thank God. I was carrying that for fucking seven years. That fucker doesn't like me. Now you know. Yeah, finally. So the challenge is like, how do you live in that vulnerability?

And I think that, you know, when you're an actor, you know, you at least are afforded the exploration of, you know, utilizing it or sort of doing creative ways to sort of stay away from it. But you can... When you're in a situation where the risk is only, you know, failure in front of people, right, that you can risk that vulnerability. in a way. What do you mean?

Well, I mean, like, if you're in an intimate relationship, and you get to that place where you're like, I'm finally comfortable and I'm vulnerable, how are you going to trust that person anymore? Sure.

That's perfect. I'm going to start with that one.

If you finally get vulnerable to somebody, how can you trust them?

Yeah, but the self thing, like if we even just take it to like seven years old, it's like that is the real situation. Whatever reason you stopped letting that thing develop is because you were afraid of being hurt, right? Or you didn't want to get hurt, right?

Well, I'm saying that the emotional vulnerability or whatever, it's my belief that at some point... Yes, for sure. Yeah, so what I'm saying is that, like, you know, how do you make that kid not afraid? And the only way is to sort of like, well, come on out. You know, let's just hang out for a little while.

And then one thing happens, like, if my cat looks at me wrong, I'm like, well, that fucking thing doesn't like me. You know, like, there's a sensitivity to it. So I don't know about the whole no-self thing, because I'm still stuck in this zone of, like, a very immature self. To go back to no-self, Jesus Christ, I mean, that

Naja, es ist nur eine Idee. Aber wenn ich die Schwierigkeiten, die ich als Adult habe, fühle, muss ich sie irgendwo definieren. Ich muss sagen, das ist wegen dieses. Ich muss das tun, bevor ich sage, all das ist Bullshit. Ja. Okay, yes, I understand what you're saying. I mean... What happened? You started the rabbit hole.

This is what we do. We do an audio podcast, have from the beginning. We're audio guys. But in the world we live in now, it's almost like analog. And I always felt that... wie auch Brendan, dass dies der am liebsten und am engagierendsten Format war und bleibt so. Das ist der Grund, warum wir es immer noch so machen, weil Audio eine Art Magie ist.

Well, I mean, but that is like why it's perfect to act, because then, you know, you can just do that. You can like, you know, but... Well, it is what I love, yeah. But because it's present.

Right, or to either be judged or think you're being judged. Correct. Du kannst so überrascht sein, wie du willst. Und die Leute denken, das war kringelig. Ich weiß, der Typ, den ich spiele, ist... Genau.

And all kinds of selves or all kinds of, you know, we're... Look, when you're needy, you'll do anything to accommodate just about anybody. Amen. Amen. So all of a sudden you're in something, you're like, who is this guy? Yeah, exactly. Well, it's working for them. Exactly. Yeah.

It's like Sidney Pollack and Michael Clayton. People were fucking incomprehensible. Exactly. Yeah. Exactly. And it's totally true. Yeah. And it's why they can't treat anything effectively or anything. Because no one knows.

Ja, und dann denke ich, es gibt eine Sache mit mir, weil ich meine Hauptperformance bin ich. Richtig, das muss extrem schwierig sein. Right. Right. My thinking and feelings go much beyond it. So for me to kind of wrestle it into that and then kind of put it into that mode, it's pretty specific because I'm broad. You know, most guys, that guy does the thing with the thing, right?

I don't do the thing with the thing. Maybe in a... You have the like neurotic... Kind of, but I'm more cranky. I think, like I have a problem with the word neurotic because, you know, I overthink... Aber ich bin selbstbewusst. Und du sagst, dass Neurose keine Selbstbewusstheit hat? Ich sage, dass als Charakter Neurose ein Typ ist, der sagt, ich werde das und das machen. Ich bin nicht dieser Typ.

Ich bin wie, okay, das ist, was passiert. Und ich denke, es ist das. So I'm going to go all the way through. I think people would rather just have the neurotic thing, because then they could put me in a box. I think as I get older, I'm just in the cranky box. Yeah, it's true. It's true, I put you in that box. Yeah, so it's not neurotic. I think about things, but I'm angry.

I feel like neurotic is a sort of illuminated, annoying vulnerability.

Yeah, a little bit. It's easier for people to, it's more palatable.

Es gibt eine Intimität dazu, dass du es in deinem Kopf lebst und die Art, wie du dich mit Audio engagierst, besonders das Reden, ist sehr anders als Video. But it's also, we are not on the big battlefield of, you know, memes and clips and everything else. And there's a certain insulation in that, but it's sort of freedom.

Ja, aber, also der Erfolg von, das ist ein buddhistisches Problem, oder? Ist das, worüber wir sprechen?

I don't know if that's a globally acknowledged place of spiritual retreat, Escondido. Where is that? Just above. Is it north?

Sure, very popular with spiritualists. Mecca. Do they all wear sandals and Hawaiian shirts?

Here's your no self. Yeah, here you go. But like when you get there, all the monks must be like, oh, this is going to be a lot.

Ja, und der Himmel.

Oh, yeah, I mean, some people, like Lynn, my late girlfriend, she did it twice a day. No matter what. No matter what. Like, if she's on set, I gotta go.

Oh, totally. Because she wasn't really that kind of person, but these people who really do that thing, I think it is foundational. Sie war sehr charismatisch und offen und schuldig, aber sie hatte eine Sache. Ich denke, es gründet dich in etwas, das es schwer zu definieren ist. Aber wenn es funktioniert, bist du gegründet, Junge. Ja. War das ihre Visualisierung?

Ich weiß nicht genau, was der Prozess war, aber sie konnte sofort rein. Ich würde aufwachen und sie wäre bereits drin. Und ich bin ein Teil davon, aber wir haben einfach geslebt. Was soll man aufwachen und das machen?

It's a freedom that, you know, we don't care about being clipped, you know, and having reels and bits and pieces of content, as they call it, to go up online so people can flip through it or engage with the 30 seconds, a minute or two. We're not even on that playing field at all. And it's a fucking gift.

Aber sie war so gut darin, sie war wirklich drin. Ich würde sie anschauen und sagen, das ist ein bisschen schrecklich, weil sie direkt drin ist.

I don't know if I'm a searcher enough. Really? Really?

I mean, that would be... Yeah, but I'm more of like, you know, there's part of me that is, but there's part of me that wants to work it out in my own way. I see.

Yeah, right. And sometimes I get there and it's surprising, you know, for me. And then somebody like you would go like, yeah, but they've been talking about that for 10,000 years. I'm like, yeah, but I just discovered it. On my own, without medicine. In terms of spiritual searching, I'm dismissive of process. Es ist ein Prozess.

Ja, wenn du mir einen Dogma geben würdest, auch wenn es nur 15 Minuten lang sitzt, dann würde ich sagen, es muss eine andere Art sein, aber ich weiß nicht, ob es eine ist.

Ein Guru. Ein meditatorischer Meister. Ich habe keine Ahnung, worum ich rede. Ja.

Richtig. Na, wie ich meine größte, meine neueste Erklärung. I mean, I do.

Yeah, that's right.

I know all about this. I did the Nicorette for like two weeks. I did that for years. But what I said on stage was one night, it's like, this is manageable. I'm a fucking addict. And if this is what it's going to take, if this is all it takes for me on a daily basis to hold back the big empty... Well, there you go. Yes, but if I was spiritual, I'd embrace the big empty.

So I guess that's suffering. I mean, you sound like you're suffering even when you say it. The awareness of mortality and then the mundane issues of shame.

It's a fucking gift because I believe that long form interaction, long form conversation and long form comedy, which is what I do, is still the most human sort of pastime. It's something that the brain has to settle into. It's something that you have to take in.

Ich weiß.

I guess the, you know... Well, that's interesting. So that is, the existential terror is the suffering of every moment. So unless you really deal with that at the beginning or at a core level, you're kind of locked in. You have to transcend that feeling.

Das ist der Grund, warum es nicht wahr ist.

It's something you have to follow and engage with in a full way, you know, all the way through, you know, and there's this this idea that I push back against. You know, I talk to a lot of young comics. who come in here and they do specials, but they're doing specials that are a half hour long, 40 minutes long, 33 minutes long, 38 minutes long.

Hahaha.

I think you're right at the precipice of writing a children's book. I think you just pitched me a chicken.

Amazing. That's why, you know, who was it? Bruno Bettelheim, you know, wrote an entire book of psychoanalysis of fairy tales.

And it's sort of like, I think these kind of archetypes or whatever they are, they are historical and mythological.

Yeah, I guess so.

And I think that's how you're approaching the Freudian Therapy too. That's exactly right. You're filling yourself up with possibilities and different ways to interpret things, right?

And when I got into the game, you know, you did an hour. That was your job. You know, you were a headliner. You do an hour, 50 minutes to an hour to close the show. When you do a special, it's an hour. And as time goes on, because of this idea that That we don't have the attention span anymore to watch long form anything.

And where you have some self-understanding and some compassion. So I think the better word then is for all the exercises of exploration is it's informing your narrative. Yes, that's correct, yes.

Yeah, but the more you inform your own narrative, the more possibilities you have in creating narratives, I would think. Why not? Yes. Right?

Und du musst dich nicht fordern, ich muss das erreichen. Ich konnte es nicht.

But I think with Jung, it's like, if you're gonna look at the cockfight, I think, between Jung and Freud, you know, as Freud was, you know, attaching everything to either, you know, mythology or transference and mother issues, and Jung was like, I'm gonna take it all on in a vague way. Yes, that's true. You pussy. I'm just...

Oh, okay.

Congrats. Okay. I'm glad it's still that tenuous.

Every day is fucking tenuous.

And to be like, this is what we have. Well, that's the interesting thing about the type of stage work I do, because I can make it present. Crowd work is a big thing now. And that's not really, you know, that requires immediacy. But when you're on stage, and I'm sure you've had the experience too, even in a character, where you're sort of like, oh, what's that thing on the floor? Oh, for sure.

So, and that is, those are the best moments. Oh, for sure. Yeah, for sure. I think I told you, I tell you about that time I saw Buried Child. I feel like I told you. No. It's like it was one of the greatest pieces of theater I ever saw. Because... Es war Terry Kenney, der den Bruder gespielt hat. War er der Vet? Ich glaube so. Der Typ, der am Ende mit all dem Korn reinkommt. Ja, ja.

That the attention span of people, because of data accumulated through algorithms, then made into a generalization about human beings' ability to pay attention, to engage with something for more than a certain number of minutes, is sort of like the precedent set. And I think it's bullshit. And I have a really hard time knowing that this is the adjustment artists are making. Comics, whoever.

Also es ist wie Gary Sinise's Produktion. Und es gibt diese Szene, es ist Richtung Ende. Ich denke, es könnte der letzte Teil sein, wo er mit all dem verdammten Korn reinkommt. Ja. Und einer der Kornkops fällt in diesem Moment. Und es beginnt einfach zu rollen. Nein, nein. Und ich dachte mir, das ist das Beste, was jemals im Theater geschehen ist.

Weil das Kornrollen den ganzen Moment auf der Bühne war. Und sie haben alle gesessen.

Das ist das Beste.

Aber ja, das Präsent.

That's the best moment. It was incredible. That's the best moment in the history of Shakespeare. Probably. It was incredible. Yeah, but those are those moments that, like, and I just was watching a documentary on Andy Kaufman. Who? Kaufman. Andy Kaufman. It's a new documentary. Okay. It's called Thank You Very Much.

Now, like, you know, I appreciate him and I have him in the proper amount of respect and awe. But I can't say as myself that I necessarily got laughs or enjoyed it that much. It was more of a sort of like, I get it. An intellectual thing. Yeah. Yeah, but after watching this documentary, I'm like, oh, right. Well, this is deeper than I anticipated.

Because, you know, the director really went after his, you know, youth. Like, what made this guy? And he was a big TM guy. Yeah, that makes sense. Yeah, and there's a piece of film on there, I gotta watch it again, because I want to write it down, where he asks the Maharishi a question at one of those big conferences, where he says, well, what's the point of entertainment? Wow.

And I can't remember what the Maharishi said, but he was talking about there's a space in between the jokes, that that's what it's all about. Wow. So he just extended that space. That's right. And the space that he would create through discomfort or challenge or things that had no definition, that he could create a space where an audience would be like, what is happening?

You know, and is this, what are we, how are we supposed to, and that is bringing somebody into a present, because you transcend all their expectations, and you subvert them, whether it's intentional or not. So they don't, like, the present is like, this is completely out of the context of anything we expected, and I don't know what to do with this. Yes. And that is the present. Yes. So... Yes.

That's kind of brilliant. I like that. I like that. You know what story of yours I quote all the fucking time. Jesus, here we go. All the time. It's like one of the best stories about acting I ever heard. And I told the story a million times. It's just about... It was you talking about how you're in a play. Like it's on Broadway and you're about to go on.

That moment where you're like... I don't know any of my lines. You're hearing the guy saying the line that's gonna get you on stage and you go... Somebody give me a script! That is the best thing ever.

It's the best fucking thing ever. How much more present do you need to be?

But the fact that nothing's going to help you.

So now at this point, do you have a daily practice then?

I did it a bit during COVID with the Headspace app. Oh, did you? Okay. Yeah, I just do this thing.

Well, then. Yeah, but I want to get to the big payoff. Get you to Escondido. But where's the big sort of like. Well, that's a great question. The bliss of everything. I want the everything bliss.

Well, that's disappointing. Exactly.

Musiker, Leute, die für ein Leben sprechen, dass es in unsere Hände gedrückt wurde, dass die Leute es einfach nicht mehr tun können. Sie können es nicht machen. Sie sind enttäuscht. Seine Aufmerksamkeit ist, ist, hat sich getrunken, vergrößert.

All the sort of ego-driven, compulsive attempts to alleviate suffering, they just wear out. Sie wehren sich einfach aus. Und es ist bemerkenswert. Eines Tages denkst du dir einfach nur, ich will gar nicht ausdrücken. It's like it's kind of a terrible moment. I know. And food stops working. You're just sitting there like, well, so that's the question.

That's right.

It's like, who cares? You're just kind of trying to get existential relief out of a pint of ice cream. So where do you go? What's your practice been? Well, the idea that... A lot of lip service to the idea of vulnerability, right? Okay.

So if what you're trying to escape is rooted in discomfort or the fear of exposure or vulnerability or whatnot, and then from there you go like, well, am I capable of intimacy? And then from there I go, it's like, why is that even important? Right. What's the answer? Well, the next thing is like, I'm alright by myself. I got records and I'm gonna talk to the cats.

But there is supposedly this way of attaining some sense of humanity and Ja. Ja.

No, yeah, I'm capable of it.

Und die Wahrheit ist, dass es diese Deliveriesysteme sind, diese Plattformen, die Art und Weise, wie das Unternehmen strukturiert ist, das das gebraucht hat, And I don't think it's an ability for people to pay attention to things. It's a matter of them wanting to or being engaged with it.

And then eventually, you know, the word is spread throughout the coffee shop. It's like, here he comes again. And eventually, they freak out here. They start locking the doors. You eventually wake up to what you've been doing and you're like, I can't go to that coffee shop anymore.

Yeah, my brother's like that. So I get it, I get it. What's going on with the pickleball? So true.

It's useful. Your work is useful? No, that's right. It brings community. There's a point of view I share that is not the standard one. But it's not alien. And to the people that feel the way I feel, and there are a lot of them, they feel seen. And in this political climate, my shows have become like support spaces, like safe spaces, where... They know how I think.

And these are people that are terrified and nervous and rightfully so. But they know I'll speak to it and speak to the sources of my own kind of struggle. And it really does have this feeling of community service. In dem Sinne, dass alle ziemlich isoliert sind. Alle sind in ihren Telefonen geschlossen.

Sie brechen, sie zerstören ihre Gehirne jeden Tag mit diesem Art von, weißt du, glücklicher Unsinn. Und, weißt du, nur um sie in einem Raum mit anderen Leuten zu bringen. Und ich denke, das ist der Power des Theaters und Films. Wenn die Leute in den Filmtheater gehen, dann, weißt du. Aber ich bin gestern Abend auf der Bühne in einem Comedy-Set und ich hatte gestern diese Idee.

Das ist unglaublich, Jesus. So like last night I'm doing a comedy set. Present moment, wonderful moment. Yeah, yeah. So I'm doing a comedy set and I said, you know, I was just kind of playing with this idea, you know, informed a bit by later Carlin, where I'm like, you know, where the idea was like, hey, the leap from fuck them to kill them is a pretty short leap. All it requires is permission.

But because everyone's accommodating this idea that you've got to keep going shorter and shorter, that's become... Ja.

Yes. Und eine Präsidentschaftspflicht, das ist eine ziemlich große Präsidentschaftspflicht.

Aber was ich bekommen habe, war, was passiert?

Exactly. And it happens so subtly because we adapted so immediately to it. Like I'm doing a bit now about how I think my phone is my primary emotional partner. And it is. Of course, you get everything you need. You learn things, you get joy.

I do this thing where I'm like, you're on it, you know, and you're getting everything you need. Yeah. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah.

Especially if they're just accommodating a content marketplace that is attention-driven. Like this idea that you can't do anything longer than a half hour, because people just can't pay attention. I'm like, yes, they can. They can. I mean, you're just supporting that equation because of a content-driven marketplace. But people are perfectly capable. I mean, I sat through the Brutalist.

Es war großartig. Das ist eine falsche Prämisse.

Look, you know, when we talk about crowd work comics or when you flip through your phone and you see all these bits and pieces of comics intentionally doing crowd work for the reason to be recorded at a club so they can post their clips to show people what they do, which is, you know, basically be in the moment to make fun of audience members. And again, I've said this before.

drug uh model whereas like you know these quick beats are endorphin jackers i mean when you scroll yeah you're getting a hit one way or the other whether it's down or up and it's quick you know like years ago the one of the only things dennis miller ever said that i don't know who wrote the joke but it never left me it was like in the early days of the internet dennis miller said the internet is going to make crack look like senka

It's true. But I think, for me, because I find a tremendous amount of solace at this particular point in history from watching good films. And it's only because there's a humanity to it. And if the story is told well and authentically, there is something nourishing about it.

Aber ist es mein Job, sie zu verstehen?

That is really, for most practical purposes, just an extension of the technology. Because they've surrendered to it or have been given the opportunity to engage with it at such a young age. Where does an elder even begin to talk? Where's the fight? I don't know that they see it as something to fight. It just is.

Well, I don't know. I imagine that you could probably go to bed at night and tell your phone to make a movie for you the next day. And tell it what length you want it and what you want it to be about. And it'll come up with something. I know. But I think even when you talk about Shakespeare, which is not my bag, I mean, the reason why it... I don't know. Right.

Look, it's a skill set that you should have if that's you. Like, if that is what you do, it's like, this is my mode of expression. This is me expressing myself. So, what do you guys do? How long have you been together? What is that hat? You know, are you guys married? Where do you come from? Like, if that is... And reacting to those questions to strangers...

See, the thing is, like, I really, it turns out that the brain is much softer and easy to manipulate than we ever assumed. Yeah. I mean, the way that people adapt, even to tragedies, is baffling to me. That, you know, you kind of move past it very quickly and you adapt.

So, the thing was, is that, you know, this was some great convenience and it made our life easier, but the adaptation to it was so quick and the relationship with it is so immediately deep that I think it rewires All of it. I don't know what humanity looks like.

You do just need... I don't know. I still think that no matter how repressed it becomes or suppressed or... It still exists. Well, I think that, you know, those moments, there are moments that you can have in well-written...

theater or film or anything that will find it pierce the veil and then all of a sudden you gotta deal with like what's happening to me and you just instead of crying you're just shaking your leg and you don't know why your body is I love that I love that that is like the function of great art when it just works on you in a certain way that's like me and my therapist just coming you know on Thursdays where all of a sudden a connection is made yes

Like that scene I think of, like for some reason, the one that keeps coming up, because I watch Black Mass a lot. Really? Yeah. God, you watch Black Mass a lot. Yeah, yeah, it's become one of those movies. How does it hold up? It gets better every time I watch it. Really? Yeah. I've only seen it once, I think.

Because, like, you know, I think initially I was like, well, you know, the Depp makeup was an obstacle for me. Yeah, overpowering, yeah. But then once I got past that, and I looked at the other performances in the script, actually, in terms of, you know, this is a gangster movie, you know, based on a real story, and it's fucking great. And it's just great. Like, you're great in it, Joel's great.

But even in the... All the guys... When they cut to the interrogation interviews, there's those moments where they're interrogating Plemons and then the big guy, who was also great, where having lived in Boston and met real mobsters, guys who have killed people, there's something they're missing that is tangible, but you couldn't... Es kommt nur daraus.

Und für irgendeinen Grund hat Rory es geschafft. Und so hat auch der andere Mann, der große Mann. Ich vergesse seinen Namen. Er ist so ein interessanter Kerl, der Kerl, den ich auch erinnere. Wer, Rory? Ich habe ihn wirklich gefreut.

If that's your expressive thing, that's your talent, that's what you want to say to the world, then fine. I don't have a problem with it. I get it. It's comedy. And one of the great things about being a solo artist or an artist at all is that, you know, you create the space for yourself to to do what you do, to get what you how you express yourself out there and whatever it may be.

But the moment that I was talking about with you is when you know you're fucked. And Joel's like, no, no, we got this. We can get, you know, you remember? You're like, no, we're fucked.

Yeah, yeah. Where they're on to you and to the scam with Whitey, where Kevin Bacon is. And you know that the jig is up. And this is before you do the TV interview or the newspaper interview where you decide to talk. But Joel's sort of like, ah, we get out of this thing. And you're like, dude. What are you talking about?

That moment, it would be impossible for someone to watch that and be like, I don't get it. And everyone has experienced that moment at some point in their life where it's like, no, it's over. What are you even thinking? And I think that ultimately is the moment you want from humanity. In relationship.

It's just that moment where you're like, holy shit, this is done. We've been found out.

My demented dad said something very interesting to me and I can't get it out of my head. Because when they have dementia, there's a poetry to it. You know? Yes. And it was not really, it wasn't in context with anything. I mean, I talked to him and he's still, you know, a good part of him is there. But it's also a Zen thing too. And I don't really know what to do with it.

And it wasn't really connected to anything. But he said, you know, you got to take the consequences or create your own. Create your own consequences. Right. What does that mean? Exactly. Wow. Because it's like that's all we do. That's what like the weird sort of shame driven compulsive person who like, you know, who who can't stop himself.

All you're doing is generating possible consequences or you're acknowledging that, you know, it's just to me, it was such a weird. I don't know what to do with the poetry of it, but I like it. Wow.

And he comes out with bangers like that. Sometimes. Wow. Sometimes he'll come out with a banger. And it does explain a lot about him, you know, where, you know, if you've got a guy who's, you know, living a secret life and getting away with it, but knows that it's not right. Right. You know, the challenge is to create your own consequences enough that To where you stop.

You are the guy saying it's over. We're done.

I thought that's how we were going to wake up from the phone nightmare. It is, but I don't know if it's going to happen. I'd like to think that. It depends if the technocrats win and we're all just given numbers instead of names.

Ja, aber du und ich, weißt du, du weißt, dass du aus dem Ausland kommst, als ich primär in den 70er-Jahren geboren wurde. Also, was wir, was wir mit dem Wettkrieg der 60er-Jahre, aber alles, was die 60er-Jahre zu bieten hatten, war für uns da und es war ziemlich nahe.

And so the arc of, you know, once computers happen and, you know, there was a time where, you know, you didn't know if anyone called you until you got home and checked your fucking machine. God, I love that time. Right. But there was a time of organic analog existence. Yes. Locality. Yeah, and we have that foundationally. Yes. And that's all gone.

You know, that is part of the freedom of it. I mean, that's why I did it like, you know, I can doesn't matter what I do up there. It's my stage. And as long as I get laughs occasionally, then I'm doing the right thing. But anything outside of that, I can do whatever the fuck I want to do. You know, in terms of that stage. It's a rare stage.

So in some ways we are the keeper of a weird flame, you know, in that we were there for that. But it's very easy for the phone and for technology to erase even that part of our history, because everything is available without context any time. Right.

Und, weißt du, ich weiß nicht, ich habe versucht, ein bisschen davon zu halten, in Bezug auf, weißt du, was mich inspiriert hat und was kreative Freiheit an einem anderen Zeitpunkt aussah. Ja, ich habe mit Pacino gesprochen, weißt du. Wirklich? Ja. Wie oft? Vor dem Buch, vor dem Buch. Oh, wow. Und es war einer der... Wie geht es dir? Es war großartig, weil...

It was really kind of life changing for me in approaching acting, you know, because I was about to do a lead in a movie and, you know, and I don't have an actor's confidence really. And it's not my, it's not, it's not ingrained in me how to do it. Okay. Aber das Wichtigste an ihm war, dass ich ihn nicht kannte und ich seine Arbeit kenne.

Und eine Menge dieser Arbeit ist sehr intensiv und kontrolliert und hat eine gewisse Anzahl an Schwachsinn und Selbstvertrauen. Und ich dachte, das ist, mit dem ich mich beschäftigen werde. Nein. Nein. Nein. Er ist ein Süßchen. Er ist ein Süßchen. Er ist ein Messer. Und er fährt es immer noch. Weißt du, was ich meine? Er liebt das Arbeiten. Er ist sehr bewusst.

Aber das, was mich überrascht hat, war, dass er nie darauf geschaut hat, bis er Kompromisse gemacht hat, weil er nicht gut mit Geld ist. Aber er hat nie darauf geschaut, als etwas anderes als eine Beobachtung der Wahrheit. Ja. Ja. Ja.

And I think that in light of what we're talking about, like whether film is going to be important or what we do is important or all this stuff that, you know, the artist's mind and that he was so clear on it from an early age when he was, you know, hanging around the living theater, you know, cleaning up with Martin Sheen, that what he saw was that this is a, this is, you know, it's a finding truth.

In the craft and in the art. And that he still has that. It's not a job. Right. And I think that. I mean, that's what I was raised on, too. Right. That's what I'm saying about what we came up with and how that, you know, it's very easy to, you know, to sort of generalize about like, I don't know if kids are watching movies. But the truth is, is that. Yeah. What are kids drawn to?

But our job, well, they're drawn to truth. Whether they can identify it for real or not, I don't know. That's what's becoming a problem, both in terms of just basic news, but I think also on the level of one's individual humanity. When you have a kid that says, you know, I think...

You can sing, you can dance, you can act out, you can do whatever you want. The only basic requirement is that you get laughs. But if that's what you choose to do to express yourself, it should be yourself that you're expressing. And the idea that comics, you know, I would think get into it for that, but now are beholden, like the idea that they, you know, have a freedom to express themselves.

I want to win.

Right. And also what is foundational to civilization. I mean, I get. And like, do we want to be civilized anymore? That's the question. Yeah. Do we want to be civilized? Well, that's the Hannah Arendt. That's why I'm festering on that. Once a culture loses empathy, it's at the precipice of barbarism.

Fundamentally, authoritarianism is not civilized. The idea of civilization and certainly democracy is that it's about diversity and equality and tolerance and respect for marginalized or vulnerable people, that we all kind of rise together. And that's fueled by empathy, right? And that seems to be historically challenging, but nonetheless idealistically the best way.

And so once that goes, you know, once that starts to tip towards people being able to other, you know, like it's not just, you know, blacks or gays or Jews, but this sort of catch all phrase of woke. Well, that's that's you know, that's that those are all the good people.

Das ist das Ding. Nein, nein, ich verstehe das.

No, I get it, but the people are being manipulated to a point where they lose their humanity. So, how do you, like, you know, I don't know how you get that back. And certainly some of them, you know, I'm sure a lot of the Nazis were like, you know, what do you need, a donut?

It's impossible to argue anything other than... No, no, no, all I'm saying is, I knew some Nazis, great guys. You know, we used to go,

The Trump card. Sorry, I didn't mean to. But I guess what I'm landing on here in terms of our question about, you know, what is the significance or relevance of what we do, is that that pursuit of humanity, community through Die Wahrheit in Kunst oder Performance ist alles, was wir tun können, auf einem gewissen Niveau. Ist alles, was wir tun können.

But yet they have to figure out how to do it, you know, quickly and in a way that, you know, will pop on a reel in a way that honors the speed and pace and delivery system of TikTok or Instagram or any of these platforms. There's a context there that is a huge corporate endeavor. Das ist primär, um Leute auf dieser Sache zu halten, auf dieser Plattform.

Yeah, elves in the corners. And here we are. Yeah, we got rid of the elves. We moved past the elves. Yeah, we moved past the elves. Thank God. We're into Zen now.

Well, I mean, you know, it's a long day. It's a long day. I've got plenty of time. It's early.

Good to talk to you again. Yeah, you as well. There you go. Thunderbolts opens in theaters everywhere tomorrow. Hang out for a minute, folks.

Hahaha.

Okay, Leute, es gibt einen neuen Bonus-Episode voller Outtakes und Edits aus den letzten Shows, der jetzt für die Fulmarin-Subscriber vorhanden ist. Ihr könnt hören, wie es war, als Nick Thune kam und mein Audio-Mixer kapiert wurde. Wie fühlst du dich über das? Ich war ein bisschen ausgespürt.

A sound situation?

To get bonus episodes twice a week, sign up for the full Marin. Go to the link in the episode description or just go to WTFpod.com and click on WTF+. And a reminder before we go, this podcast is hosted by ACAST. Here's some simple, standard Marc Maron guitar playing. ... Boomer lives. Monkey and La Fonda. Cat Angels everywhere.

Und du servierst diese Meister, um das zu tun, damit sie das tun können. Und du wendest dein gesamtes Willen und kreatives Gefühl von dir selbst in diesen Format. which is short and has to grab people.

And the more people you grab for your short little thing or you shitting on that guy who's got a weird haircut is what determines whether or not you are successful or that you may possibly make a living. But there's no freedom of mind in that. There's no real expression in that other than maybe being quick-witted and having a spontaneous moment that is, who cares?

But the idea that you can do whatever you want and that some of these folks of any type of art form thinks they're doing that, but yet you're bending yourself to this context to fit the expectations of the platform delivering it. And with these platforms, it's quick and it just goes by. And all you're looking for is people to go, ha, ha, ha, and quick. Ja, genau.

And so whatever you think is the freedom of being expressive and all this freedom you have to do whatever you want and put it out into the world becomes very relative to the world of those platforms. And it is innately...

Not a long form world, not a storytelling world, not a world in terms of comedy at this point in time that really kind of shows people who you are, what your ideas are, where you're coming from. I mean, there's other people that do that kind of stuff, but arguably.

They're doing it in a very limited format, too, and everybody is now a broadcaster and everybody is sort of operating in this zone of mania that is required to focus on broadcasting, whether it's sort of a hypothetical vulnerability or aggressive cultural criticism. There is a zone that people have to get in to be on a mic. You know, I'm in it now in my own way.

But I just think that the cultural conversation is just this kind of sort of never-ending, infinite, manic babbling that comes through you in little bits and pieces in order to grab your attention for corporate interests.

And I think I've kind of discussed this a bit with Chris Hayes when I talked to him about his book, is that people are perfectly capable of maintaining an attention span for as long as the thing that they are interested in continues to engage me.

So any generalization based on millions of people watching one thing that gives data through an algorithm about how many people tuned out or didn't watch all the way through, it's not relative to Vielen Dank. diminishes your depth, diminishes your ability to express yourself honestly or the way you want to. Anyway, I don't know, it was on my mind.

So look, it's the final leg of my tour leading up to my HBO special taping. I'm in Toronto at the Winter Garden this Saturday, May 3rd, for two shows. Burlington, Vermont, I'm at the Vermont Comedy Club for two shows on Monday, May 5th, and one show on Tuesday, May 6th. Vielen Dank. Okay, look, David Harbour and I have done this sort of deep word jam before. Deep thought jam, deep talk jam.

And it was a thrill to have him back. Thunderbolts opens in theaters, including IMAX, tomorrow, May 2nd. This is me reconnecting with David Harbour.

Ich bin Mark Maron und das ist mein Podcast. Willkommen. Es heißt WTF. Ich glaube, einige von euch sind hier schon mal gewesen. Schön, dass ihr zurück seid. Heute habe ich David Harbour zurück, was immer spannend ist. Ich liebe diesen Kerl. I love them. We talked years ago and it was like a ride. I'm like, I can get on this roller coaster.

Hahaha.

Alright, so it's been a long time since our last appointment. Seven years or something, right? I know, I can't believe it. How is your progress?

No, no, no, that's a different kind of doctor. Sorry, sorry. I'm doing the... I gotta make some sense of some shit, man. Oh, man. Good luck to us. Well, here's what I was going to tell you about the cat. Can we hire a professional?

The professionals, do they really know? I don't know anymore. Like, I can't. Yeah, that's a great question. How long have you been in therapy for? Well, I wasn't in therapy. You know, I've been in and out. Because as I get older, I realize, like, if I'm going to go, I've got to know exactly where I'm going. I'm not going to fuck around.

Yeah.

Yeah? Yeah. Well, I just found that after a while, if you're a smart person, you know, what are you really using them for?

But don't you do that anyways?

Sure, okay. But okay, let's say you do that, right? And then, you know, you find something out. And the idea is that that's proactive. It's going to help you. How is it not just like when I make discoveries that imply something about my behavior, the next step should be like, well, I'm going to try to change that. And then it just becomes like, oh yeah, I had that memory.