Darian Woods

Let me grab my hard hat back there on. Yeah.

Let me grab my hard hat back there on. Yeah.

Justin told me how this all works. There's excess solar in the middle of the day, so the power price can be low. So we can take the extra solar that's produced in the day from the arrays and store it for use later in the evening when it's needed most, when the sun is going down.

Justin told me how this all works. There's excess solar in the middle of the day, so the power price can be low. So we can take the extra solar that's produced in the day from the arrays and store it for use later in the evening when it's needed most, when the sun is going down.

It's such a big facility. There's so much power generated that... It's hard to find one buyer to take it all, so we ended up splitting the output to two different buyers of electricity.

It's such a big facility. There's so much power generated that... It's hard to find one buyer to take it all, so we ended up splitting the output to two different buyers of electricity.

Yeah, this power is kind of... I mean, an electron's an electron. It's hard to tell where it actually came from once it hits a transmission line, but...

Yeah, this power is kind of... I mean, an electron's an electron. It's hard to tell where it actually came from once it hits a transmission line, but...

Right. So like all the scale and advancements that went in the manufacturing to make it to bring the scale up. And then to drive the cost down, just weren't there yet to do it economically.

Right. So like all the scale and advancements that went in the manufacturing to make it to bring the scale up. And then to drive the cost down, just weren't there yet to do it economically.

So we're at that really nice intersection where the technology's improved enough, the cost has come down at that intersection where you're meeting the demand at the price they need to be successful, where it allows us to build these sorts of plants to serve that need.

So we're at that really nice intersection where the technology's improved enough, the cost has come down at that intersection where you're meeting the demand at the price they need to be successful, where it allows us to build these sorts of plants to serve that need.

Yeah, so that was one of the big knock on renewables, always has been, it's intermittent. But that hurt us financially as well because we were paid less for our power because we were intermittent. So when you pair storage with solar, now the people we sell power to, it's more valuable to them because we can provide them power when they want it most.

Yeah, so that was one of the big knock on renewables, always has been, it's intermittent. But that hurt us financially as well because we were paid less for our power because we were intermittent. So when you pair storage with solar, now the people we sell power to, it's more valuable to them because we can provide them power when they want it most.

We can provide them a fixed shape, meaning tell us how much power you want in any given hour of the day. And we'll design a plant to meet your needs exactly.

We can provide them a fixed shape, meaning tell us how much power you want in any given hour of the day. And we'll design a plant to meet your needs exactly.

I think if you have a solar plant... or a battery plant or a combination anywhere in the U.S. that's ready to be built these days, you can find an offtaker, you know, someone to sell the power. There's just tremendous demand, tremendous demand for it.

I think if you have a solar plant... or a battery plant or a combination anywhere in the U.S. that's ready to be built these days, you can find an offtaker, you know, someone to sell the power. There's just tremendous demand, tremendous demand for it.

But this phenomenon you've seen in California, it's going to occur elsewhere in the US. It's just because California has the highest penetration level of renewables anywhere in the US and it created the demand for storage. As penetration levels increase throughout the US, as they have in Texas and elsewhere, the storage market is going to follow in those areas too. And everyone's ready for that.

But this phenomenon you've seen in California, it's going to occur elsewhere in the US. It's just because California has the highest penetration level of renewables anywhere in the US and it created the demand for storage. As penetration levels increase throughout the US, as they have in Texas and elsewhere, the storage market is going to follow in those areas too. And everyone's ready for that.

This is Planet Money from NPR. Over the past week, President Donald Trump has gone from threatening to oust Jerome Powell, the chair of the Federal Reserve, to saying he has no intention of firing him.

This is Planet Money from NPR. Over the past week, President Donald Trump has gone from threatening to oust Jerome Powell, the chair of the Federal Reserve, to saying he has no intention of firing him.

The evidence is less clear about the effects of having the Fed's bank supervision and regulation role under the grip of politicians. And so it makes sense that President Trump specifically carved out the Fed's monetary policy as staying independent. But the big question is how this division would work in practice.

The evidence is less clear about the effects of having the Fed's bank supervision and regulation role under the grip of politicians. And so it makes sense that President Trump specifically carved out the Fed's monetary policy as staying independent. But the big question is how this division would work in practice.

Catherine says the problem with this approach is if the White House begins to meddle in some functions of the Fed, it would undermine other decisions made by the individuals at the Fed.

Catherine says the problem with this approach is if the White House begins to meddle in some functions of the Fed, it would undermine other decisions made by the individuals at the Fed.

The Fed can do things like change interest rates to address inflation. Raising interest rates can bring down prices. But it could also make new mortgages more expensive. And it can put people temporarily out of work. Economist Carol Abinder of the University of Texas told us these can be unpopular moves for a politician.

The Fed can do things like change interest rates to address inflation. Raising interest rates can bring down prices. But it could also make new mortgages more expensive. And it can put people temporarily out of work. Economist Carol Abinder of the University of Texas told us these can be unpopular moves for a politician.

Here's what Powell told a House committee in February about potential executive branch interference.

Here's what Powell told a House committee in February about potential executive branch interference.

Classic Powell, keeping his head down, doing the work.

Classic Powell, keeping his head down, doing the work.

I would not expect anything less from him. You know, we reached out to the White House to ask how this division would be managed. According to a senior administration official, the Office of Management and Budget will oversee all the Fed's regulations not related to monetary policy. We also asked if it could erode the credibility of the Fed's decisions to raise or lower interest rates.

I would not expect anything less from him. You know, we reached out to the White House to ask how this division would be managed. According to a senior administration official, the Office of Management and Budget will oversee all the Fed's regulations not related to monetary policy. We also asked if it could erode the credibility of the Fed's decisions to raise or lower interest rates.

The same statement said no. And to, quote, include that accusation in your story would not be accurately reporting the executive order.

The same statement said no. And to, quote, include that accusation in your story would not be accurately reporting the executive order.

Unless he decides to take unprecedented and possibly illegal actions sooner. The original episodes from The Indicator were produced by Corey Bridges, Brittany Cronin, and Julia Ritchie. They were engineered by Sina Lofredo, James Willits, and Gilly Moon. They were fact-checked by Sarah Juarez. Kate Kincannon is the editor of The Indicator. Follow us wherever you get your podcasts.

Unless he decides to take unprecedented and possibly illegal actions sooner. The original episodes from The Indicator were produced by Corey Bridges, Brittany Cronin, and Julia Ritchie. They were engineered by Sina Lofredo, James Willits, and Gilly Moon. They were fact-checked by Sarah Juarez. Kate Kincannon is the editor of The Indicator. Follow us wherever you get your podcasts.

This episode of Planet Money was produced by James Sneed and edited by Marianne McCune and Mary Childs. Alex Goldbach is our executive producer. I'm Darian Woods.

This episode of Planet Money was produced by James Sneed and edited by Marianne McCune and Mary Childs. Alex Goldbach is our executive producer. I'm Darian Woods.

And when we say the Fed is independent, we don't mean it's completely separated from democracy. While a president can't say lower interest rates when they feel like they're getting too high, the Fed is accountable to the public in other ways.

And when we say the Fed is independent, we don't mean it's completely separated from democracy. While a president can't say lower interest rates when they feel like they're getting too high, the Fed is accountable to the public in other ways.

Last summer, Republican Senator John Kennedy grilled Fed Chair Jerome Powell. I got two seconds. So when are you going to lower interest rates?

Last summer, Republican Senator John Kennedy grilled Fed Chair Jerome Powell. I got two seconds. So when are you going to lower interest rates?

As much as politicians might want to control interest rates, they can't. And that's thanks to an accord between the Treasury and the Federal Reserve in 1951. In the US, inflation was running high after World War II and during the Korean War. But the Fed had a problem. It was effectively controlled by the Treasury Department, which was led by the president's treasury secretary.

As much as politicians might want to control interest rates, they can't. And that's thanks to an accord between the Treasury and the Federal Reserve in 1951. In the US, inflation was running high after World War II and during the Korean War. But the Fed had a problem. It was effectively controlled by the Treasury Department, which was led by the president's treasury secretary.

And that got in the way of the Fed doing its main job, influencing the money supply, keeping inflation down, a.k.a. monetary policy.

And that got in the way of the Fed doing its main job, influencing the money supply, keeping inflation down, a.k.a. monetary policy.

Lyndon Johnson also twisted the screws on his Fed chair at the time. And through the 1970s and 80s, a consensus started to emerge among economists. The job of central banks to bring down inflation was a lot easier without politicians getting in the way, trying to pressure the lever down. And in return for more autonomy, central banks could be more transparent about their decision-making.

Lyndon Johnson also twisted the screws on his Fed chair at the time. And through the 1970s and 80s, a consensus started to emerge among economists. The job of central banks to bring down inflation was a lot easier without politicians getting in the way, trying to pressure the lever down. And in return for more autonomy, central banks could be more transparent about their decision-making.

Carolina Garriga is a political science professor at the University of Essex in the UK. Carolina and her co-author's research finds that countries with more independent central banks have lower levels of inflation. But like all good social scientists, she's quick to note that correlation doesn't always equal causation.

Carolina Garriga is a political science professor at the University of Essex in the UK. Carolina and her co-author's research finds that countries with more independent central banks have lower levels of inflation. But like all good social scientists, she's quick to note that correlation doesn't always equal causation.

And though so far Trump hasn't taken any action to dump Powell, every time Trump's anger at the Fed chair flares, markets quiver and economists start flipping out. Because they say the Fed has to be independent. It has to focus on keeping the economy healthy. And that process must be free from politics and pressure. It needs to just focus on what's right for the economy. But why exactly?

And though so far Trump hasn't taken any action to dump Powell, every time Trump's anger at the Fed chair flares, markets quiver and economists start flipping out. Because they say the Fed has to be independent. It has to focus on keeping the economy healthy. And that process must be free from politics and pressure. It needs to just focus on what's right for the economy. But why exactly?

A very strong correlation that is definitely pointing in a direction and winking.

A very strong correlation that is definitely pointing in a direction and winking.

Carol Abinder at UT Austin says, in the US, the consensus grew that central bank independence was a good thing. And this led to a norm. Presidents were letting the central banks do their thing. Until the 2016 election, when Trump started publicly and loudly criticizing the Federal Reserve. that continued into his presidency.

Carol Abinder at UT Austin says, in the US, the consensus grew that central bank independence was a good thing. And this led to a norm. Presidents were letting the central banks do their thing. Until the 2016 election, when Trump started publicly and loudly criticizing the Federal Reserve. that continued into his presidency.

He appointed Fed Chair Jerome Powell, but started making these public swipes against him from 2018. This was a major shift in the president's relationship with the Fed.

He appointed Fed Chair Jerome Powell, but started making these public swipes against him from 2018. This was a major shift in the president's relationship with the Fed.

Kerala says these comments are revealing.

Kerala says these comments are revealing.

Kerala does think there is a grain of truth there in the frustrations that might lead someone wanting a politician to strung on the economists. Think about what we've been through, the high inflation, the pandemic, and then the global financial crisis before that.

Kerala does think there is a grain of truth there in the frustrations that might lead someone wanting a politician to strung on the economists. Think about what we've been through, the high inflation, the pandemic, and then the global financial crisis before that.

The Fed was scrambling to help, of course, and that meant expanding its role and taking on unconventional new action, like buying up tons of mortgage securities and bonds.

The Fed was scrambling to help, of course, and that meant expanding its role and taking on unconventional new action, like buying up tons of mortgage securities and bonds.

That raises the question, how did the Fed become so powerful? Here with me now is Gina Smiley, reporter for The New York Times, who wrote a book called Limitless. The Federal Reserve Takes on a New Age of Crisis. And the key thesis of this book is that for better or for worse, the Fed has amassed a huge amount of power over the economy. That is correct.

That raises the question, how did the Fed become so powerful? Here with me now is Gina Smiley, reporter for The New York Times, who wrote a book called Limitless. The Federal Reserve Takes on a New Age of Crisis. And the key thesis of this book is that for better or for worse, the Fed has amassed a huge amount of power over the economy. That is correct.

And there's this key moment at the peak of the early pandemic chaos where this becomes really clear.

And there's this key moment at the peak of the early pandemic chaos where this becomes really clear.

A mic drop moment indeed. Right. So let's start with why the Federal Reserve tries to be politically independent.

A mic drop moment indeed. Right. So let's start with why the Federal Reserve tries to be politically independent.

And did you come across any stories that reveal how Fed Chair Jerome Powell personally considers his role?

And did you come across any stories that reveal how Fed Chair Jerome Powell personally considers his role?

Hello and welcome to Planet Money. I'm Darian Woods.

Hello and welcome to Planet Money. I'm Darian Woods.

So these ideals of the Fed and these ideals of Jerome Powell are all very well in what we call peacetime. But let's think back to the early days of the pandemic, early 2020.

So these ideals of the Fed and these ideals of Jerome Powell are all very well in what we call peacetime. But let's think back to the early days of the pandemic, early 2020.

Yeah. But as Jerome Powell has a habit of saying, there are no atheists in a foxhole. You know, sometimes you change your mind in a crisis.

Yeah. But as Jerome Powell has a habit of saying, there are no atheists in a foxhole. You know, sometimes you change your mind in a crisis.

And when we're talking about the Fed pushing past its previous boundaries, it seems to me there are two key dates with two key sets of policies that forever changed what the Fed was capable of. So tell me about that first Fed bundle of programs in late March of 2020.

And when we're talking about the Fed pushing past its previous boundaries, it seems to me there are two key dates with two key sets of policies that forever changed what the Fed was capable of. So tell me about that first Fed bundle of programs in late March of 2020.

So not just the big multinational companies, but I guess aimed at midsize or even small businesses. Yeah.

So not just the big multinational companies, but I guess aimed at midsize or even small businesses. Yeah.

Today on the show, a primer on the Fed. From the Indicator podcast, we have three ways of looking at that question for you today. We'll look at what the Fed does, why its independence is so important, and one quieter step President Trump has taken to influence the Fed this year. The Federal Reserve, the US central bank, has two big goals, keeping prices stable and jobs plentiful.

Today on the show, a primer on the Fed. From the Indicator podcast, we have three ways of looking at that question for you today. We'll look at what the Fed does, why its independence is so important, and one quieter step President Trump has taken to influence the Fed this year. The Federal Reserve, the US central bank, has two big goals, keeping prices stable and jobs plentiful.

Jerome Powell appears on TV pretty soon after.

Jerome Powell appears on TV pretty soon after.

He's on the Today Show to explain this package. Is that unusual for a Fed chair?

He's on the Today Show to explain this package. Is that unusual for a Fed chair?

We certainly are. And then it seems like that had an effect. It calmed the markets, but even that huge response didn't totally resolve all the jitters. So let's go through that second big fire hose in early April 2020.

We certainly are. And then it seems like that had an effect. It calmed the markets, but even that huge response didn't totally resolve all the jitters. So let's go through that second big fire hose in early April 2020.

And so that day, Jerome Powell crosses another one of his kind of personal lines. He seems like he's kind of recommending things for the politicians to do.

And so that day, Jerome Powell crosses another one of his kind of personal lines. He seems like he's kind of recommending things for the politicians to do.

The Fed does in general try to stay in its lane or at least operate under the powers given to it by the Federal Reserve Act. But it is enormously powerful and has been lending to all kinds of areas of the economy. And in doing so, it was kind of picking winners and losers. That is not apolitical. So now it finds itself firmly in political crosshairs.

The Fed does in general try to stay in its lane or at least operate under the powers given to it by the Federal Reserve Act. But it is enormously powerful and has been lending to all kinds of areas of the economy. And in doing so, it was kind of picking winners and losers. That is not apolitical. So now it finds itself firmly in political crosshairs.

Gina Smilick, thank you so much for talking to The Indicator. Thank you for having me. After the break, an executive order that lays the groundwork for more presidential control. So ideally, the Fed's decisions on interest rates should be independent. That's where we started when Trump was inaugurated in January. But since then, a lot has happened.

Gina Smilick, thank you so much for talking to The Indicator. Thank you for having me. After the break, an executive order that lays the groundwork for more presidential control. So ideally, the Fed's decisions on interest rates should be independent. That's where we started when Trump was inaugurated in January. But since then, a lot has happened.

President Trump has signed more executive orders than any president this early in the term. He has been spilling the presidential ink. And as we know, many of these orders will be tied up in court for the foreseeable future. But we want to focus on this one executive order as it relates to the Federal Reserve.

President Trump has signed more executive orders than any president this early in the term. He has been spilling the presidential ink. And as we know, many of these orders will be tied up in court for the foreseeable future. But we want to focus on this one executive order as it relates to the Federal Reserve.

Now, there's one big asterisk here. The executive order says it only applies to the Federal Reserve's role in safeguarding the financial system. It doesn't apply to the Fed's raising and lowering of interest rates to fight inflation and protect jobs, you know, monetary policy. Catherine Judge is a law professor at Columbia University.

Now, there's one big asterisk here. The executive order says it only applies to the Federal Reserve's role in safeguarding the financial system. It doesn't apply to the Fed's raising and lowering of interest rates to fight inflation and protect jobs, you know, monetary policy. Catherine Judge is a law professor at Columbia University.

This is Planet Money from NPR. When we asked for your questions right after the election, there were a few that we got again and again. One of those was, how would mass deportation affect the economy? Another was, how do you even measure the economic impact of immigrants and immigration?

This is Planet Money from NPR. When we asked for your questions right after the election, there were a few that we got again and again. One of those was, how would mass deportation affect the economy? Another was, how do you even measure the economic impact of immigrants and immigration?

Hello and welcome to Planet Money. I'm Darian Woods. And I'm Adrian Ma. First, Darian and our co-host Waylon Wong have the story from another time the U.S. cracked down on immigration with the express intent of helping the economy. We look at how that worked out.

Hello and welcome to Planet Money. I'm Darian Woods. And I'm Adrian Ma. First, Darian and our co-host Waylon Wong have the story from another time the U.S. cracked down on immigration with the express intent of helping the economy. We look at how that worked out.

Zeke's a professor at the University of Pennsylvania's Wharton Business School. And he says amid all the coverage and the political speeches, he's really noticed two narratives about immigrants taking hold.

Zeke's a professor at the University of Pennsylvania's Wharton Business School. And he says amid all the coverage and the political speeches, he's really noticed two narratives about immigrants taking hold.

I was not going to say anything, but since you said it, it's out there in the open now. But, you know, Zeke says this dichotomy between fear and pity, it distracts us from the larger truth about immigrants. Coming up, we break out of the binary. Zeke Hernandez has moved around a lot during his lifetime.

I was not going to say anything, but since you said it, it's out there in the open now. But, you know, Zeke says this dichotomy between fear and pity, it distracts us from the larger truth about immigrants. Coming up, we break out of the binary. Zeke Hernandez has moved around a lot during his lifetime.

He was born in Uruguay and his family moved from there to various parts of Central America and eventually to Argentina. And there, he says he noticed just how different economically countries could be.

He was born in Uruguay and his family moved from there to various parts of Central America and eventually to Argentina. And there, he says he noticed just how different economically countries could be.

Today's stories come from Planet Money's daily podcast, The Indicator. Enjoy.

Today's stories come from Planet Money's daily podcast, The Indicator. Enjoy.

Zeke says the reasons for this can be broken down into five things. Five things any group of people contributes to economic growth. And because immigrants are people, they also contribute these things. They are talent, consumption, taxes, investment, and innovation.

Zeke says the reasons for this can be broken down into five things. Five things any group of people contributes to economic growth. And because immigrants are people, they also contribute these things. They are talent, consumption, taxes, investment, and innovation.

Yeah, I mean, after they work, they have paychecks to spend, right? So the second thing they bring is consumption. In economic terms, when immigrants enter an economy, they increase aggregate demand for goods and services.

Yeah, I mean, after they work, they have paychecks to spend, right? So the second thing they bring is consumption. In economic terms, when immigrants enter an economy, they increase aggregate demand for goods and services.

Yeah. So, for example, in D.C., where I live, there's a large Ethiopian community, and you're more likely to see in this area a demand for Ethiopian food and restaurants. Or in a place with lots of Korean immigrants, retailers may be more likely to import Korean beauty products. So this is the novelty effect of immigrant consumer demand.

Yeah. So, for example, in D.C., where I live, there's a large Ethiopian community, and you're more likely to see in this area a demand for Ethiopian food and restaurants. Or in a place with lots of Korean immigrants, retailers may be more likely to import Korean beauty products. So this is the novelty effect of immigrant consumer demand.

What does it taste like?

What does it taste like?

Please send them to me.

Please send them to me.

The fourth thing that immigrants contribute to the economy, which Zeke says is often overlooked, is investment. And this can happen a couple of ways. For one thing, you can have foreign companies investing in the U.S.

The fourth thing that immigrants contribute to the economy, which Zeke says is often overlooked, is investment. And this can happen a couple of ways. For one thing, you can have foreign companies investing in the U.S.

So you have this Guatemalan company over the past couple of decades opening U.S. locations. At this point, they have over 100 of them. And they open them in places where there tend to be a lot of immigrants from Central America.

So you have this Guatemalan company over the past couple of decades opening U.S. locations. At this point, they have over 100 of them. And they open them in places where there tend to be a lot of immigrants from Central America.

And then another way investment can happen is an immigrant to the U.S. starts a business.

And then another way investment can happen is an immigrant to the U.S. starts a business.

So that rounds out the five things immigrants contribute to the economy, which, again, any group of people has these five qualities. It's just that immigrants bring a different set of skills and different tastes and ideas which help grow the economy in a way that it couldn't otherwise. Zeke says this is just as true for people who immigrate to the US illegally as those who come here legally.

So that rounds out the five things immigrants contribute to the economy, which, again, any group of people has these five qualities. It's just that immigrants bring a different set of skills and different tastes and ideas which help grow the economy in a way that it couldn't otherwise. Zeke says this is just as true for people who immigrate to the US illegally as those who come here legally.

To put it another way, there hasn't been a major update to U.S. immigration policy in over three decades. And because of that, Zeke argues that the U.S. economy is missing out. Today's stories first aired on our other podcast, The Indicator from Planet Money. It comes out five days a week and is always 10 minutes or less. So check it out on your podcasting.

To put it another way, there hasn't been a major update to U.S. immigration policy in over three decades. And because of that, Zeke argues that the U.S. economy is missing out. Today's stories first aired on our other podcast, The Indicator from Planet Money. It comes out five days a week and is always 10 minutes or less. So check it out on your podcasting.

This is Planet Money from NPR. Over the past week, President Donald Trump has gone from threatening to oust Jerome Powell, the chair of the Federal Reserve, to saying he has no intention of firing him.

The evidence is less clear about the effects of having the Fed's bank supervision and regulation role under the grip of politicians. And so it makes sense that President Trump specifically carved out the Fed's monetary policy as staying independent. But the big question is how this division would work in practice.

Catherine says the problem with this approach is if the White House begins to meddle in some functions of the Fed, it would undermine other decisions made by the individuals at the Fed.

The Fed can do things like change interest rates to address inflation. Raising interest rates can bring down prices. But it could also make new mortgages more expensive. And it can put people temporarily out of work. Economist Carol Abinder of the University of Texas told us these can be unpopular moves for a politician.

Here's what Powell told a House committee in February about potential executive branch interference.

Classic Powell, keeping his head down, doing the work.

I would not expect anything less from him. You know, we reached out to the White House to ask how this division would be managed. According to a senior administration official, the Office of Management and Budget will oversee all the Fed's regulations not related to monetary policy. We also asked if it could erode the credibility of the Fed's decisions to raise or lower interest rates.

The same statement said no. And to, quote, include that accusation in your story would not be accurately reporting the executive order.

Unless he decides to take unprecedented and possibly illegal actions sooner. The original episodes from The Indicator were produced by Corey Bridges, Brittany Cronin, and Julia Ritchie. They were engineered by Sina Lofredo, James Willits, and Gilly Moon. They were fact-checked by Sarah Juarez. Kate Kincannon is the editor of The Indicator. Follow us wherever you get your podcasts.

This episode of Planet Money was produced by James Sneed and edited by Marianne McCune and Mary Childs. Alex Goldbach is our executive producer. I'm Darian Woods.

And when we say the Fed is independent, we don't mean it's completely separated from democracy. While a president can't say lower interest rates when they feel like they're getting too high, the Fed is accountable to the public in other ways.

Last summer, Republican Senator John Kennedy grilled Fed Chair Jerome Powell. I got two seconds. So when are you going to lower interest rates?

As much as politicians might want to control interest rates, they can't. And that's thanks to an accord between the Treasury and the Federal Reserve in 1951. In the US, inflation was running high after World War II and during the Korean War. But the Fed had a problem. It was effectively controlled by the Treasury Department, which was led by the president's treasury secretary.

And that got in the way of the Fed doing its main job, influencing the money supply, keeping inflation down, a.k.a. monetary policy.

Lyndon Johnson also twisted the screws on his Fed chair at the time. And through the 1970s and 80s, a consensus started to emerge among economists. The job of central banks to bring down inflation was a lot easier without politicians getting in the way, trying to pressure the lever down. And in return for more autonomy, central banks could be more transparent about their decision-making.

Carolina Garriga is a political science professor at the University of Essex in the UK. Carolina and her co-author's research finds that countries with more independent central banks have lower levels of inflation. But like all good social scientists, she's quick to note that correlation doesn't always equal causation.

And though so far Trump hasn't taken any action to dump Powell, every time Trump's anger at the Fed chair flares, markets quiver and economists start flipping out. Because they say the Fed has to be independent. It has to focus on keeping the economy healthy. And that process must be free from politics and pressure. It needs to just focus on what's right for the economy. But why exactly?

A very strong correlation that is definitely pointing in a direction and winking.

Carol Abinder at UT Austin says, in the US, the consensus grew that central bank independence was a good thing. And this led to a norm. Presidents were letting the central banks do their thing. Until the 2016 election, when Trump started publicly and loudly criticizing the Federal Reserve. that continued into his presidency.

He appointed Fed Chair Jerome Powell, but started making these public swipes against him from 2018. This was a major shift in the president's relationship with the Fed.

Kerala says these comments are revealing.

Kerala does think there is a grain of truth there in the frustrations that might lead someone wanting a politician to strung on the economists. Think about what we've been through, the high inflation, the pandemic, and then the global financial crisis before that.

The Fed was scrambling to help, of course, and that meant expanding its role and taking on unconventional new action, like buying up tons of mortgage securities and bonds.

That raises the question, how did the Fed become so powerful? Here with me now is Gina Smiley, reporter for The New York Times, who wrote a book called Limitless. The Federal Reserve Takes on a New Age of Crisis. And the key thesis of this book is that for better or for worse, the Fed has amassed a huge amount of power over the economy. That is correct.

And there's this key moment at the peak of the early pandemic chaos where this becomes really clear.

A mic drop moment indeed. Right. So let's start with why the Federal Reserve tries to be politically independent.

And did you come across any stories that reveal how Fed Chair Jerome Powell personally considers his role?

Hello and welcome to Planet Money. I'm Darian Woods.

So these ideals of the Fed and these ideals of Jerome Powell are all very well in what we call peacetime. But let's think back to the early days of the pandemic, early 2020.

Yeah. But as Jerome Powell has a habit of saying, there are no atheists in a foxhole. You know, sometimes you change your mind in a crisis.

And when we're talking about the Fed pushing past its previous boundaries, it seems to me there are two key dates with two key sets of policies that forever changed what the Fed was capable of. So tell me about that first Fed bundle of programs in late March of 2020.

So not just the big multinational companies, but I guess aimed at midsize or even small businesses. Yeah.

Today on the show, a primer on the Fed. From the Indicator podcast, we have three ways of looking at that question for you today. We'll look at what the Fed does, why its independence is so important, and one quieter step President Trump has taken to influence the Fed this year. The Federal Reserve, the US central bank, has two big goals, keeping prices stable and jobs plentiful.

Jerome Powell appears on TV pretty soon after.

He's on the Today Show to explain this package. Is that unusual for a Fed chair?

We certainly are. And then it seems like that had an effect. It calmed the markets, but even that huge response didn't totally resolve all the jitters. So let's go through that second big fire hose in early April 2020.

And so that day, Jerome Powell crosses another one of his kind of personal lines. He seems like he's kind of recommending things for the politicians to do.

The Fed does in general try to stay in its lane or at least operate under the powers given to it by the Federal Reserve Act. But it is enormously powerful and has been lending to all kinds of areas of the economy. And in doing so, it was kind of picking winners and losers. That is not apolitical. So now it finds itself firmly in political crosshairs.

Gina Smilick, thank you so much for talking to The Indicator. Thank you for having me. After the break, an executive order that lays the groundwork for more presidential control. So ideally, the Fed's decisions on interest rates should be independent. That's where we started when Trump was inaugurated in January. But since then, a lot has happened.

President Trump has signed more executive orders than any president this early in the term. He has been spilling the presidential ink. And as we know, many of these orders will be tied up in court for the foreseeable future. But we want to focus on this one executive order as it relates to the Federal Reserve.

Now, there's one big asterisk here. The executive order says it only applies to the Federal Reserve's role in safeguarding the financial system. It doesn't apply to the Fed's raising and lowering of interest rates to fight inflation and protect jobs, you know, monetary policy. Catherine Judge is a law professor at Columbia University.

Let me grab my hard hat back there on. Yeah.

Justin told me how this all works. There's excess solar in the middle of the day, so the power price can be low. So we can take the extra solar that's produced in the day from the arrays and store it for use later in the evening when it's needed most, when the sun is going down.

It's such a big facility. There's so much power generated that... It's hard to find one buyer to take it all, so we ended up splitting the output to two different buyers of electricity.

Yeah, this power is kind of... I mean, an electron's an electron. It's hard to tell where it actually came from once it hits a transmission line, but...

Right. So like all the scale and advancements that went in the manufacturing to make it to bring the scale up. And then to drive the cost down, just weren't there yet to do it economically.

So we're at that really nice intersection where the technology's improved enough, the cost has come down at that intersection where you're meeting the demand at the price they need to be successful, where it allows us to build these sorts of plants to serve that need.

Yeah, so that was one of the big knock on renewables, always has been, it's intermittent. But that hurt us financially as well because we were paid less for our power because we were intermittent. So when you pair storage with solar, now the people we sell power to, it's more valuable to them because we can provide them power when they want it most.

We can provide them a fixed shape, meaning tell us how much power you want in any given hour of the day. And we'll design a plant to meet your needs exactly.

I think if you have a solar plant... or a battery plant or a combination anywhere in the U.S. that's ready to be built these days, you can find an offtaker, you know, someone to sell the power. There's just tremendous demand, tremendous demand for it.

But this phenomenon you've seen in California, it's going to occur elsewhere in the US. It's just because California has the highest penetration level of renewables anywhere in the US and it created the demand for storage. As penetration levels increase throughout the US, as they have in Texas and elsewhere, the storage market is going to follow in those areas too. And everyone's ready for that.

This is Planet Money from NPR. When we asked for your questions right after the election, there were a few that we got again and again. One of those was, how would mass deportation affect the economy? Another was, how do you even measure the economic impact of immigrants and immigration?

Hello and welcome to Planet Money. I'm Darian Woods. And I'm Adrian Ma. First, Darian and our co-host Waylon Wong have the story from another time the U.S. cracked down on immigration with the express intent of helping the economy. We look at how that worked out.

Zeke's a professor at the University of Pennsylvania's Wharton Business School. And he says amid all the coverage and the political speeches, he's really noticed two narratives about immigrants taking hold.

I was not going to say anything, but since you said it, it's out there in the open now. But, you know, Zeke says this dichotomy between fear and pity, it distracts us from the larger truth about immigrants. Coming up, we break out of the binary. Zeke Hernandez has moved around a lot during his lifetime.

He was born in Uruguay and his family moved from there to various parts of Central America and eventually to Argentina. And there, he says he noticed just how different economically countries could be.

Today's stories come from Planet Money's daily podcast, The Indicator. Enjoy.

Zeke says the reasons for this can be broken down into five things. Five things any group of people contributes to economic growth. And because immigrants are people, they also contribute these things. They are talent, consumption, taxes, investment, and innovation.

Yeah, I mean, after they work, they have paychecks to spend, right? So the second thing they bring is consumption. In economic terms, when immigrants enter an economy, they increase aggregate demand for goods and services.

Yeah. So, for example, in D.C., where I live, there's a large Ethiopian community, and you're more likely to see in this area a demand for Ethiopian food and restaurants. Or in a place with lots of Korean immigrants, retailers may be more likely to import Korean beauty products. So this is the novelty effect of immigrant consumer demand.

What does it taste like?

Please send them to me.

The fourth thing that immigrants contribute to the economy, which Zeke says is often overlooked, is investment. And this can happen a couple of ways. For one thing, you can have foreign companies investing in the U.S.

So you have this Guatemalan company over the past couple of decades opening U.S. locations. At this point, they have over 100 of them. And they open them in places where there tend to be a lot of immigrants from Central America.

And then another way investment can happen is an immigrant to the U.S. starts a business.

So that rounds out the five things immigrants contribute to the economy, which, again, any group of people has these five qualities. It's just that immigrants bring a different set of skills and different tastes and ideas which help grow the economy in a way that it couldn't otherwise. Zeke says this is just as true for people who immigrate to the US illegally as those who come here legally.

To put it another way, there hasn't been a major update to U.S. immigration policy in over three decades. And because of that, Zeke argues that the U.S. economy is missing out. Today's stories first aired on our other podcast, The Indicator from Planet Money. It comes out five days a week and is always 10 minutes or less. So check it out on your podcasting.

Armando Rosario Lebron has been into bugs ever since he was a kid in Puerto Rico.

Armando Rosario Lebron has been into bugs ever since he was a kid in Puerto Rico.

Aw, little Armando. Well, little Armando grew up to be big Armando, who actually works with bugs for a living. On the side, he consults for film and TV. Like, he's consulted on spiders for Netflix's House of Cards and on hissing cockroaches for Chef Gordon Ramsay's new show, Secret Service.

Aw, little Armando. Well, little Armando grew up to be big Armando, who actually works with bugs for a living. On the side, he consults for film and TV. Like, he's consulted on spiders for Netflix's House of Cards and on hissing cockroaches for Chef Gordon Ramsay's new show, Secret Service.

I would love to hear the outtakes from that filming session.

I would love to hear the outtakes from that filming session.

Yeah, it may not be safe for radio broadcast. Armando's full-time job, though, is working at the Smithsonian Institution. There, he's a biological science technician. He specializes in looking after the collections that include the aphids and the whiteflies. He's also a union vice president, representing many federal workers involved with border biosecurity.

Yeah, it may not be safe for radio broadcast. Armando's full-time job, though, is working at the Smithsonian Institution. There, he's a biological science technician. He specializes in looking after the collections that include the aphids and the whiteflies. He's also a union vice president, representing many federal workers involved with border biosecurity.

He explains the importance of entomology at the border like this.

He explains the importance of entomology at the border like this.

Yeah, and actually picture a whole freightload of bananas. These bananas are inspected by a Customs and Border Protection officer who might have been trained by an entomologist. And if they see a strange bug in these bananas, that bug might be sent to an entomologist for identification. Meanwhile, the freight unloading is paused because the wrong insects getting into the U.S.

Yeah, and actually picture a whole freightload of bananas. These bananas are inspected by a Customs and Border Protection officer who might have been trained by an entomologist. And if they see a strange bug in these bananas, that bug might be sent to an entomologist for identification. Meanwhile, the freight unloading is paused because the wrong insects getting into the U.S.

can be economically crushing.

can be economically crushing.

That could be hundreds of millions of dollars of damage to the U.S. farmers. Is that right?

That could be hundreds of millions of dollars of damage to the U.S. farmers. Is that right?

Yeah, this is a regular installment at The Indicator. We look at how many jobs the U.S. economy has added. The latest numbers from the Bureau of Labor Statistics show us that it was 177,000 jobs in April, which is a pretty healthy number. But the important thing for you and shortwave listeners is that recently, co-host Adrienne Ma and I zoomed in specifically on scientists in the U.S.,

Yeah, this is a regular installment at The Indicator. We look at how many jobs the U.S. economy has added. The latest numbers from the Bureau of Labor Statistics show us that it was 177,000 jobs in April, which is a pretty healthy number. But the important thing for you and shortwave listeners is that recently, co-host Adrienne Ma and I zoomed in specifically on scientists in the U.S.,

But recently, with job cuts, resignation offers and funding freezes, Armando was wondering whether he wants to be working in the U.S. He says he lost three technicians thanks to the recent job cuts in February. And as a union representative, Armando has spent countless hours on the phone talking with distressed colleagues.

But recently, with job cuts, resignation offers and funding freezes, Armando was wondering whether he wants to be working in the U.S. He says he lost three technicians thanks to the recent job cuts in February. And as a union representative, Armando has spent countless hours on the phone talking with distressed colleagues.

A few months ago, Armando applied for a PhD program in the UK, and in March, he was accepted. But he was also torn about whether to take the offer, given how much he loved his current job at the Smithsonian.

A few months ago, Armando applied for a PhD program in the UK, and in March, he was accepted. But he was also torn about whether to take the offer, given how much he loved his current job at the Smithsonian.

Each to their own. Clearly, Armando has found bug bliss, right? He's so passionate about what he does, really like any institution looking for an entomologist would be lucky to have him.

Each to their own. Clearly, Armando has found bug bliss, right? He's so passionate about what he does, really like any institution looking for an entomologist would be lucky to have him.

Yeah, that is true. Overseas universities, hospitals, and labs are rubbing their hands at all these enthusiastic, smart people like Armando suddenly considering leaving the U.S. Kevin Smith is the president and CEO of University Health Network in Canada.

Yeah, that is true. Overseas universities, hospitals, and labs are rubbing their hands at all these enthusiastic, smart people like Armando suddenly considering leaving the U.S. Kevin Smith is the president and CEO of University Health Network in Canada.

That's like the size of a city.

That's like the size of a city.

Kevin says a few months ago, he was hearing from his researchers that something unusual was happening.

Kevin says a few months ago, he was hearing from his researchers that something unusual was happening.

Huh. Five to ten times.

Huh. Five to ten times.

The NIH has been blocking thousands of grant applications and has threatened billions of dollars of further health sciences funding if scientists weren't asking the right questions.

The NIH has been blocking thousands of grant applications and has threatened billions of dollars of further health sciences funding if scientists weren't asking the right questions.

Already, we've seen 33 grants related to studying vaccine hesitancy and uptake terminated by the National Institutes of Health. The FDA has also made a new COVID vaccine go through extra testing hoops.

Already, we've seen 33 grants related to studying vaccine hesitancy and uptake terminated by the National Institutes of Health. The FDA has also made a new COVID vaccine go through extra testing hoops.

And the Trump administration has been threatening to withdraw funding from colleges like Harvard unless they change the way they recruit and also how they admit international students. So Kevin thought there may be an opportunity here. He spoke with his senior leadership team and board.

And the Trump administration has been threatening to withdraw funding from colleges like Harvard unless they change the way they recruit and also how they admit international students. So Kevin thought there may be an opportunity here. He spoke with his senior leadership team and board.

They came up with a plan to work with philanthropists and other funders to recruit 100 early career scientists to their hospital system.

They came up with a plan to work with philanthropists and other funders to recruit 100 early career scientists to their hospital system.

Kevin says around 400 people have already formally inquired. They span cancer researchers, neuroscientists, experts in organ transplants, and also people using AI to answer health questions.

Kevin says around 400 people have already formally inquired. They span cancer researchers, neuroscientists, experts in organ transplants, and also people using AI to answer health questions.

Brain drain is something that happens to smaller countries all the time. Their high performers go overseas looking for opportunities, often in the U.S. It can be bad for these smaller countries' economies. And now it seems that the tables could be turning.

Brain drain is something that happens to smaller countries all the time. Their high performers go overseas looking for opportunities, often in the U.S. It can be bad for these smaller countries' economies. And now it seems that the tables could be turning.

We asked both the NIH and the White House if they were concerned. The NIH responded that it is committed to fostering a vibrant biomedical research workforce. And White House spokesperson Kush Desai said the Trump administration had been reviewing the previous administration's projects, identifying waste and realigning research spending to maintain America's innovative dominance.

We asked both the NIH and the White House if they were concerned. The NIH responded that it is committed to fostering a vibrant biomedical research workforce. And White House spokesperson Kush Desai said the Trump administration had been reviewing the previous administration's projects, identifying waste and realigning research spending to maintain America's innovative dominance.

As for Armando, the entomologist, he reflected on all the chaos that he's been seeing, and he decided, yeah, he's going to take that PhD offer in the UK. And he actually moves in September. So what is the U.S.

As for Armando, the entomologist, he reflected on all the chaos that he's been seeing, and he decided, yeah, he's going to take that PhD offer in the UK. And he actually moves in September. So what is the U.S.

losing by having Hollywood consultant, entomologist, union leader Armando Rosario LeBron leave the U.S.?

losing by having Hollywood consultant, entomologist, union leader Armando Rosario LeBron leave the U.S.?

And that's not even taking into account the creepy crawlies that we lose from TV shows. I think Gordon Ramsay will be happy about that.

And that's not even taking into account the creepy crawlies that we lose from TV shows. I think Gordon Ramsay will be happy about that.

Yeah, the frozen NIH funding and government layoffs are pushing some scientists abroad.

Yeah, the frozen NIH funding and government layoffs are pushing some scientists abroad.

And some of those people are putting their money where their mouths are.

And some of those people are putting their money where their mouths are.

Okay, well, they might make up some of the next statistic, which is that the jobs website Nature Careers saw a 32% increase in U.S.-based scientists applying for jobs elsewhere in the first three months of this year.

Okay, well, they might make up some of the next statistic, which is that the jobs website Nature Careers saw a 32% increase in U.S.-based scientists applying for jobs elsewhere in the first three months of this year.

It's real.

It's real.

Armando Rosario Lebron has been into bugs ever since he was a kid in Puerto Rico.

Aw, little Armando. Well, little Armando grew up to be big Armando, who actually works with bugs for a living. On the side, he consults for film and TV. Like, he's consulted on spiders for Netflix's House of Cards and on hissing cockroaches for Chef Gordon Ramsay's new show, Secret Service.

I would love to hear the outtakes from that filming session.

Yeah, it may not be safe for radio broadcast. Armando's full-time job, though, is working at the Smithsonian Institution. There, he's a biological science technician. He specializes in looking after the collections that include the aphids and the whiteflies. He's also a union vice president, representing many federal workers involved with border biosecurity.

He explains the importance of entomology at the border like this.

Yeah, and actually picture a whole freightload of bananas. These bananas are inspected by a Customs and Border Protection officer who might have been trained by an entomologist. And if they see a strange bug in these bananas, that bug might be sent to an entomologist for identification. Meanwhile, the freight unloading is paused because the wrong insects getting into the U.S.

can be economically crushing.

That could be hundreds of millions of dollars of damage to the U.S. farmers. Is that right?

Yeah, this is a regular installment at The Indicator. We look at how many jobs the U.S. economy has added. The latest numbers from the Bureau of Labor Statistics show us that it was 177,000 jobs in April, which is a pretty healthy number. But the important thing for you and shortwave listeners is that recently, co-host Adrienne Ma and I zoomed in specifically on scientists in the U.S.,

But recently, with job cuts, resignation offers and funding freezes, Armando was wondering whether he wants to be working in the U.S. He says he lost three technicians thanks to the recent job cuts in February. And as a union representative, Armando has spent countless hours on the phone talking with distressed colleagues.

A few months ago, Armando applied for a PhD program in the UK, and in March, he was accepted. But he was also torn about whether to take the offer, given how much he loved his current job at the Smithsonian.

Each to their own. Clearly, Armando has found bug bliss, right? He's so passionate about what he does, really like any institution looking for an entomologist would be lucky to have him.

Yeah, that is true. Overseas universities, hospitals, and labs are rubbing their hands at all these enthusiastic, smart people like Armando suddenly considering leaving the U.S. Kevin Smith is the president and CEO of University Health Network in Canada.

That's like the size of a city.

Kevin says a few months ago, he was hearing from his researchers that something unusual was happening.

Huh. Five to ten times.

The NIH has been blocking thousands of grant applications and has threatened billions of dollars of further health sciences funding if scientists weren't asking the right questions.

Already, we've seen 33 grants related to studying vaccine hesitancy and uptake terminated by the National Institutes of Health. The FDA has also made a new COVID vaccine go through extra testing hoops.

And the Trump administration has been threatening to withdraw funding from colleges like Harvard unless they change the way they recruit and also how they admit international students. So Kevin thought there may be an opportunity here. He spoke with his senior leadership team and board.

They came up with a plan to work with philanthropists and other funders to recruit 100 early career scientists to their hospital system.

Kevin says around 400 people have already formally inquired. They span cancer researchers, neuroscientists, experts in organ transplants, and also people using AI to answer health questions.

Brain drain is something that happens to smaller countries all the time. Their high performers go overseas looking for opportunities, often in the U.S. It can be bad for these smaller countries' economies. And now it seems that the tables could be turning.

We asked both the NIH and the White House if they were concerned. The NIH responded that it is committed to fostering a vibrant biomedical research workforce. And White House spokesperson Kush Desai said the Trump administration had been reviewing the previous administration's projects, identifying waste and realigning research spending to maintain America's innovative dominance.

As for Armando, the entomologist, he reflected on all the chaos that he's been seeing, and he decided, yeah, he's going to take that PhD offer in the UK. And he actually moves in September. So what is the U.S.

losing by having Hollywood consultant, entomologist, union leader Armando Rosario LeBron leave the U.S.?

And that's not even taking into account the creepy crawlies that we lose from TV shows. I think Gordon Ramsay will be happy about that.

Yeah, the frozen NIH funding and government layoffs are pushing some scientists abroad.

And some of those people are putting their money where their mouths are.

Okay, well, they might make up some of the next statistic, which is that the jobs website Nature Careers saw a 32% increase in U.S.-based scientists applying for jobs elsewhere in the first three months of this year.

It's real.