Dan Epps

I think there'll be probably some more, maybe even before this episode, actually, to our listeners. You know, as people surely know, there are tons of district court cases where district courts are issuing TROs about various things the Trump administration has done in the month or so since they've been in office.

I think there'll be probably some more, maybe even before this episode, actually, to our listeners. You know, as people surely know, there are tons of district court cases where district courts are issuing TROs about various things the Trump administration has done in the month or so since they've been in office.

And it's going to raise a lot of things, and a lot of those are bubbling up to the court. But the first one that the court has gotten and ruled on is Besant versus Hampton Dellinger, special counsel of the Office of Special Counsel. Son of famed Supreme Court advocate, former acting Solicitor General Walter Dodger. Okay. I was wondering about that. Yep. That checks out. That's interesting.

And it's going to raise a lot of things, and a lot of those are bubbling up to the court. But the first one that the court has gotten and ruled on is Besant versus Hampton Dellinger, special counsel of the Office of Special Counsel. Son of famed Supreme Court advocate, former acting Solicitor General Walter Dodger. Okay. I was wondering about that. Yep. That checks out. That's interesting.

And this is a case about the, I mean, the substance of the case is the unitary executive question, right? About the president's power to remove officers in the United States without having to show cause. And then it also has several procedural wrinkles.

And this is a case about the, I mean, the substance of the case is the unitary executive question, right? About the president's power to remove officers in the United States without having to show cause. And then it also has several procedural wrinkles.

Well, you do wonder, right, when Trump removed him, did Trump know what the office was or did he just see special counsel? And maybe Dellinger. Maybe he even remembered Dellinger's name. He's like, wow, a famous Democrat in the Office of Special Counsel. They're fired. I do kind of wonder. Yeah, that's eminently plausible.

Well, you do wonder, right, when Trump removed him, did Trump know what the office was or did he just see special counsel? And maybe Dellinger. Maybe he even remembered Dellinger's name. He's like, wow, a famous Democrat in the Office of Special Counsel. They're fired. I do kind of wonder. Yeah, that's eminently plausible.

But I don't actually know what the office does beyond being somehow involved in the Merit System Protection Support.

But I don't actually know what the office does beyond being somehow involved in the Merit System Protection Support.

Right. And so preliminary injunctions are immediately appealable. And as you alluded to, in practice, the preliminary injunction has often become

Right. And so preliminary injunctions are immediately appealable. And as you alluded to, in practice, the preliminary injunction has often become

permanent injunction yeah and the court will often rule on likelihood of success on the merits and then they'll just basically say this person wins right so the tro is often sort of de facto the new the preliminary preliminary injunction i need to i need to figure out whether or not you're going to get a preliminary injunction i know the preliminary injunction is going to go up to the supreme court so i've got to really nail it down so preliminarily to not last very long tiros yeah

permanent injunction yeah and the court will often rule on likelihood of success on the merits and then they'll just basically say this person wins right so the tro is often sort of de facto the new the preliminary preliminary injunction i need to i need to figure out whether or not you're going to get a preliminary injunction i know the preliminary injunction is going to go up to the supreme court so i've got to really nail it down so preliminarily to not last very long tiros yeah

Yeah. So the TROs are supposed to last like two weeks. And they're supposed to not be appealable, although there is a developed and developing jurisprudence about when is a TRO effectively a preliminary injunction and when does the All Writs Act allow courts to kind of de facto review it.

Yeah. So the TROs are supposed to last like two weeks. And they're supposed to not be appealable, although there is a developed and developing jurisprudence about when is a TRO effectively a preliminary injunction and when does the All Writs Act allow courts to kind of de facto review it.

This is just the general concept. And then preliminary injunctions are expressly enumerated as an exception. I see. And so it's just the fact that TROs are not normally within the statutory definition of a preliminary injunction. Okay. Okay.

This is just the general concept. And then preliminary injunctions are expressly enumerated as an exception. I see. And so it's just the fact that TROs are not normally within the statutory definition of a preliminary injunction. Okay. Okay.

Completely? Yeah. maybe not completely. Okay. So partially, partially. Yeah. I mean, what does final mean? I'm, I'm open to being against that. Okay. Uh, I looked into it at some point. It was a little more complicated than I thought, but TROs are quintessentially not collateral, right?

Completely? Yeah. maybe not completely. Okay. So partially, partially. Yeah. I mean, what does final mean? I'm, I'm open to being against that. Okay. Uh, I looked into it at some point. It was a little more complicated than I thought, but TROs are quintessentially not collateral, right?