Dallas Jenkins
Appearances
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
509. Retelling the Greatest Story Ever Told | Dallas Jenkins
Yes, that's her contradiction. She was not Job's wife. She did not say, God, I. That's interesting.
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
509. Retelling the Greatest Story Ever Told | Dallas Jenkins
Right. So in the midst of it—this is why you're who you are— I wouldn't have put it this way, but we were also unknowingly wrestling, whether it's an intuition or a revelation, and here's why. Because our conclusion from the story that we were reading was, okay, right now we are at that point of hunger and desperation. The next step is the miracle.
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
509. Retelling the Greatest Story Ever Told | Dallas Jenkins
Jesus brought them to that place so that they were hungry and desperate, so that the only solution to their problem was a miracle, the thing that only he could do.
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
509. Retelling the Greatest Story Ever Told | Dallas Jenkins
So that I will get glory.
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
509. Retelling the Greatest Story Ever Told | Dallas Jenkins
So in the moment... A bad thing has happened, but it's the precursor to something great. So what is it? We know that Jesus is about to do something extraordinary in the feeding of the 5,000. So what is God about to do with us?
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
509. Retelling the Greatest Story Ever Told | Dallas Jenkins
Yeah, maybe. We're thinking tonight. the numbers might so dramatically shift in a miraculous way that God will get glory and that our movie will actually surprise and counteract the math equation that has taken place. And so we're thinking, don't be surprised if tonight the numbers... magically, supernaturally, miraculously turn around. The math equation that Hollywood is used to is upended.
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
509. Retelling the Greatest Story Ever Told | Dallas Jenkins
And what is about to happen to us is what happened to the people who were hungry and desperate 2,000 years ago. So that night, the numbers got worse. So now we're going... Okay. So much for that hypothesis. Yes. So we're back to square one. And now I go to the former, when you had the two options of, is it a practical mistake? Is it an error that was made? Or is it a foundational problem?
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
509. Retelling the Greatest Story Ever Told | Dallas Jenkins
Okay, well... I'm going to go now to the—my brain is now back to how I normally am, and I'm going to do what I normally do. I'm going to get online. I'm going to pull up Microsoft Word, and I'm going to do a 15-page memo analyzing all the errors and strategies that were mistaken to lead me to this point. So— I'm writing it out. This is what I did wrong. To my credit, I'm taking blame.
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
509. Retelling the Greatest Story Ever Told | Dallas Jenkins
I'm not putting blame on anyone else. I was wrong. I missed it. I'm on page 14 of my 15-page memo, analyzing everything that went wrong. Ping pops, something pops up on my computer. It's four o'clock in the morning. Message pops up on Facebook Messenger from someone I've never met. We're friends on Facebook. We've talked maybe once a year. Doesn't say hi, doesn't say hello. Just ping, remember.
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
509. Retelling the Greatest Story Ever Told | Dallas Jenkins
Your job is not to feed the 5,000. It's only to provide the loaves and fish. So I pause for a moment. I wonder if genuinely, with my computer recording what Amanda and I talked about today, how does this person know to speak to this thing we've been wrestling with all day?
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
509. Retelling the Greatest Story Ever Told | Dallas Jenkins
Yeah, so I didn't say, hey, Alex, nice to hear from you. I just go, what are you doing up at four in the morning? because I'm trying to analyze. He says, oh, I'm in Romania. I'm on the other side of the world right now. I just heard about your movie, and I wanted to say that. And I said, before I respond, can I ask you why you told me that? He said, oh, that wasn't me.
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
509. Retelling the Greatest Story Ever Told | Dallas Jenkins
God told me to tell you that. Okay, so tell me the message again. Remember, your job is not to feed the 5,000. It's only to provide the loaves and fish.
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
509. Retelling the Greatest Story Ever Told | Dallas Jenkins
So I first had to... My life changed in that moment because my question about whether or not God was present was clearly answered. I found out later that Alex said he was walking home from the grocery store, and he looked up my movie, saw it was a failure. He had enjoyed it. He had seen it himself. He was disappointed.
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
509. Retelling the Greatest Story Ever Told | Dallas Jenkins
And he felt just as clearly as my wife had felt God putting her into the story of the feeding 5,000, he felt God putting it on his heart. Tell Dallas it's not his job to feed the 5,000. It's only to provide the loaves and fish. And he said, no, I barely know Dallas. That's a very condescending thing to say to somebody who's clearly— Well, and a strange thing.
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
509. Retelling the Greatest Story Ever Told | Dallas Jenkins
Right, right. Contextless. Yes. So he wrestles with that and doesn't want to do that and thinks ultimately, well, God won't let me off the mat. He keeps pressing this into me, so okay. I'm going to share this with Dallas. It's four in the morning back there anyway, so he won't see it for a while anyway.
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
509. Retelling the Greatest Story Ever Told | Dallas Jenkins
And of course, he gets this immediate response and informs me that God had been pressing it on his heart to tell me that. So two things happen. Number one, it all hit me in that moment. Like, I understood what he meant, and that's what you're asking. So in the story of the feeding of the 5,000, Jesus could have said,
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
509. Retelling the Greatest Story Ever Told | Dallas Jenkins
Assuming you believe the story and you believe all the stories of the miracles that he performed, he could have manifested loaves and fish from nothing. And he could have fed 5,000 people, and the loaves and fish could have just emerged in their laps. But he says, I need food. Someone bring me some food. Bring me something. And a boy brings five loaves and two fish.
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
509. Retelling the Greatest Story Ever Told | Dallas Jenkins
And Jesus takes those five loaves and two fish and he blesses them and then multiplies them to the point where we can feed 5,000 people. And so why does he do that? Why does he involve us, or in the case of this story, the boy, in the process when he doesn't have to? So the principle of your job is to not be responsible to feed 5,000, to not think of the results. I'm a results guy.
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
509. Retelling the Greatest Story Ever Told | Dallas Jenkins
I'm a problem solver. The numbers didn't match. We didn't feed 5,000. It failed. And this gentleman is telling me, no, no, that's not your job to worry about. You didn't fail.
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
509. Retelling the Greatest Story Ever Told | Dallas Jenkins
Correct. So in that moment, when I'm literally... analyzing what I did wrong, coming off of a day of wrestling with the story of the feeding the 5,000, this gentleman randomly out of the blue tells me, it's not that. It's not that you failed per se. It's not that you, we could argue about, did I make the best five loaves and two fish? Was the recipe a good recipe?
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
509. Retelling the Greatest Story Ever Told | Dallas Jenkins
It took a year, and I think it's still taking place today as you and I talk about this show, that, spoiler alert, has become one of the most successful shows in the world, and I have gotten some of those things that I used to pursue. but it's different now. So we'll put a pin in that. We'll come back to this moment. I don't know yet. I'm going, okay, so he's right.
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
509. Retelling the Greatest Story Ever Told | Dallas Jenkins
The message is you did your part, but the reality Did I do a good job? Was the fish and loaves the best? I don't know yet. I don't know what the reason is for this because if the feeding, if the result, the miracle isn't a good result for the resurrection of Gavin Stone, the name of the movie, if it's still failing, if it's never going to succeed, then what is the, I gave my loaves and fish.
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
509. Retelling the Greatest Story Ever Told | Dallas Jenkins
He's just saying to me in that moment, don't worry about it. Be okay, because I'm wrestling with, so what's the next step? And I don't know. And God's economy of time is different from humanity's economy of time. So I'm wanting the answer now. He's saying, you don't have that answer now. Just know, just stop thinking about the result. Think more about the five loaves and two fish.
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
509. Retelling the Greatest Story Ever Told | Dallas Jenkins
And so for me, as someone who over 40 years of my life had always measured myself by the results, was seeking a particular result, Affirmation was my drug of choice. Legitimacy was my drug of choice. It was my voice, my vice. Narcissism was my struggle. In this moment, I think that the feeding of the 5,000 refers to many things. It refers to financial success. It refers to Hollywood legitimacy.
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
509. Retelling the Greatest Story Ever Told | Dallas Jenkins
It refers to what people think of me, the audience. The audience rejected what I was bringing to them, right? So did Hollywood. So did... Anything that I'm seeking. So, okay, well, that's nice to hear. But in that moment, I realized from now on—and I became a different person that night, that morning, 4 o'clock in the morning. Okay. God—
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
509. Retelling the Greatest Story Ever Told | Dallas Jenkins
as long as I am in your will, as long as I am providing five loaves and two fish that you deem acceptable, the transaction's over. No longer will I seek the feeding. I'm not going to be the boy who provides the five loaves and two fish, sees it multiplied, goes home to his parents and says, look, mom and dad, I fed 5,000 people today. That would be ludicrous.
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
509. Retelling the Greatest Story Ever Told | Dallas Jenkins
So I'm not only not responsible for the failure, I mean, in a manner of speaking, of course I made some mistakes. Of course the movie wasn't good enough to achieve its correct box office. That's exactly what Job says. Yes. But now my focus is going to be on just the transaction, for lack of a better term, between myself and God.
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
509. Retelling the Greatest Story Ever Told | Dallas Jenkins
You didn't say that. I'm saying... That's not how I'm going to measure ultimate success here. So what's interesting is I would conclude, and I think I concluded it in that moment, and I certainly conclude it now.
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
509. Retelling the Greatest Story Ever Told | Dallas Jenkins
In fact, hundreds of millions of people around the world believe the conclusion I'm about to tell you, which is the resurrection of Gavin Stone, that movie was in a sense almost sacrificed at the altar of my own. The measurement of the success wasn't Gavin Stone's financial results, because those never went, those never improved. It maintained its failure. So then what's the success?
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
509. Retelling the Greatest Story Ever Told | Dallas Jenkins
Well, it's not necessarily that Nitschke's book ended up, even though it only sold 200 copies, ended up still having impact. The Resurrection of Gavin Stone, that movie is not, in 50 years, people aren't going to say, even though it only did $2.3 million, it inspired people. Millions of people. That movie is the, again, I don't know if I have a better term for it, kind of sacrifice. Yeah.
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
509. Retelling the Greatest Story Ever Told | Dallas Jenkins
Because the story that God is telling in this moment is, at the risk of sounding arrogant, my story. it's ultimately, again, skipping ahead for a moment, the chosen became the thing that was the outcome.
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
509. Retelling the Greatest Story Ever Told | Dallas Jenkins
We are in Caiaphas' house. Yeah. High priest Caiaphas. Now, it's in Texas, not Israel. We film in Texas. Texans believe Jesus lived here anyway. So that's why we film in Texas. This is where he would choose to live. Exactly. And when he comes back, he's coming to Texas first. But we built this set. This is a season five set. It has not been released to the world yet.
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
509. Retelling the Greatest Story Ever Told | Dallas Jenkins
I actually wrote about it on Facebook a few days later. I did this long post where I just said, okay, I'm not going to pretend that I can convince you to go see this movie now. I've surrendered it. Here's what's happened. It failed. Period. End of sentence. Now what? Why do I feel—I actually use the word free—why do I feel more freedom right now than at any other time in my life.
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
509. Retelling the Greatest Story Ever Told | Dallas Jenkins
The truth will set you free. What does that freedom come from? And that was the experience you had. Oh, absolutely. So in that moment, I went from, how do I wrestle with this? How do I understand? What went wrong? Was it me? Was it God? Was it Satan? Was it my friends? Was it the studio? What brought me to this place? It didn't matter anymore.
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
509. Retelling the Greatest Story Ever Told | Dallas Jenkins
In my life right now, for the first time in decades, I was perfectly willing to never make another film or TV show if that's what God wanted. Now, I didn't know if that was what God wanted. I didn't know what the future held.
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
509. Retelling the Greatest Story Ever Told | Dallas Jenkins
And the delivery of the message, the fact that the message was— Could you call this a coincidence? Could you call it just random? It's quite a coincidence. It's such an extraordinary coincidence. Similar, I've heard your story. You talk about your wife, what God put on her heart, how she knew when— Yeah, right. You know, and you go, I—
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
509. Retelling the Greatest Story Ever Told | Dallas Jenkins
The secularist or the humanist or the atheist would say, Dallas, it is a coincidence. These things happen all the time. Right.
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
509. Retelling the Greatest Story Ever Told | Dallas Jenkins
I can't. And so I must accept God is clearly in this. He is clearly communicating to me. What must I draw from this? Well, I've attended business seminars. Every filmmaker will tell you to have a plan, five-year plan. Where are you going to be at in five years? Right, right, right. And Phil Vischer, who's the creator of VeggieTales, which was 25 years ago, huge.
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
509. Retelling the Greatest Story Ever Told | Dallas Jenkins
And then he had a similar crisis of faith. He lost it all. He was left barren and found that God was trying to just get his attention. God was saying to him, I don't care what you do for me. I care that you're doing it with me. I want you. I don't care about what you're giving me. That was his ultimate message. I'll let him speak for himself.
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
509. Retelling the Greatest Story Ever Told | Dallas Jenkins
But one of the things he said to me was, where you're at in five years is none of your business. So that, for me, was an extraordinary thought.
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
509. Retelling the Greatest Story Ever Told | Dallas Jenkins
So you're introducing Caiaphas' set to the world. Chosen fans have not seen it yet. But this is the room in which not only Caiaphas and Judas make a deal, but ultimately where we'll see Jesus come for his quasi-trial. His Sanhedrin trial took place at Caiaphas' house under cover of night, away from the traditional place because they were trying to do it quickly.
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
509. Retelling the Greatest Story Ever Told | Dallas Jenkins
Yeah, yeah. So you could say, well, your strings were cut. Mm-hmm. No, my actually strings became stronger. It was the audience was removed from the equation. Am I still willing to be a boy on a string? Am I still willing to be in service to God? Am I still willing to bend the knee and commit to a life of more of him, less of me?
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
509. Retelling the Greatest Story Ever Told | Dallas Jenkins
I am in service to him, even if there's not an audience while I'm dancing.
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
509. Retelling the Greatest Story Ever Told | Dallas Jenkins
But I, in that moment, said, okay. Okay, God. I crumple up the 15 pages. I give up even, so that's the past, but I also crumple up the future. I don't know what my future is. I'm okay with that for the first time in my life. It may mean I don't ever make it. Why were you okay? Because I understood who God was and what he, and it was so clear he was present.
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
509. Retelling the Greatest Story Ever Told | Dallas Jenkins
That I was like, whatever those five loaves and fish are, I'm okay. As long as you— I'm willing to go along with it. Yes. And so if that means driving a bus just so that I'm supporting my family, that's okay. Because what's more important is that I'm in your will and that I'm not basing my success or failure or my mood, my— who I am as a husband and father, on how well... Your identity.
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
509. Retelling the Greatest Story Ever Told | Dallas Jenkins
Yeah, better. Thank you. My identity in how people see me. My identity, and the Bible talks about the fear of man. Yeah, right. I had a fear of man more that I didn't maybe know. I wouldn't have maybe admitted that about myself, but clearly I knew in that moment the fear of man was more than my fear of God.
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
509. Retelling the Greatest Story Ever Told | Dallas Jenkins
With that uplifting, lighthearted note, this is where we're filming this conversation.
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
509. Retelling the Greatest Story Ever Told | Dallas Jenkins
And you say things like, oh, sorry, I'm rambling. Yeah, yeah, that's right.
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
509. Retelling the Greatest Story Ever Told | Dallas Jenkins
Yeah, now the audience is above you.
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
509. Retelling the Greatest Story Ever Told | Dallas Jenkins
You've got a guy who is narcissistic in a field that demands a bit of narcissism in order to succeed, in one moment having all that taken away from him.
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
509. Retelling the Greatest Story Ever Told | Dallas Jenkins
for the next few months, I'm like, well, what's my future? Now, I happen to be, we won't get into this, but I happen to be working at a church in Illinois at this time. So I had made certain movies, but they had hired me to come make movies within the context of this large church in Illinois. And so one of the things that I had done previously was,
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
509. Retelling the Greatest Story Ever Told | Dallas Jenkins
was for Good Friday services or for Christmas services at this huge church of 12,000 people, which had huge Good Friday services, eight of them over the course of two days for 2,000 people per service. My task was to make these short films or vignettes about Jesus. And so going back as far as, you know, 2012, I was doing these little—
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
509. Retelling the Greatest Story Ever Told | Dallas Jenkins
like it's where I met Jonathan Rumi, who plays Jesus in The Chosen, is was I was doing a short film about the crucifixion from the perspective of the two thieves on the cross. And so this notion of telling the stories that I've heard hundreds of times, but from different perspectives, had already proven itself over the last five years to be an extraordinary tool in unlocking people's
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
509. Retelling the Greatest Story Ever Told | Dallas Jenkins
emotional connection to the story.
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
509. Retelling the Greatest Story Ever Told | Dallas Jenkins
So, for example, instead of being just what most Bible projects are, like, I assume you've seen, like, have you seen the Jesus of Nazareth miniseries? Have you seen any of these kind of Jesus movies? No, no. Chosen is the one that I've watched. Oh, well, good. But the genre of biblical filmmaking, particularly Jesus filmmaking, tends to be verse by verse.
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
509. Retelling the Greatest Story Ever Told | Dallas Jenkins
It's a reenactment of the verses that you're reading. It's not a story per se that you're telling that follows traditional three-act structure other than the fact that a lot of Jesus stories do. And then Jesus did this, and then Jesus did that, and then he encountered a blind man.
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
509. Retelling the Greatest Story Ever Told | Dallas Jenkins
Yes, which makes for sometimes an enjoyable recreation of what you already believe, but certainly not a good movie.
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
509. Retelling the Greatest Story Ever Told | Dallas Jenkins
Well, season one of The Chosen was... crowdfunded and at such a low budget. We were starting from scratch, so we were finding places to film and trying to make them look bigger. It was after season two that we realized we have to have our own place. We can't just keep chasing The kinds of places around the country that some of which don't exist.
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
509. Retelling the Greatest Story Ever Told | Dallas Jenkins
And they almost always are.
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
509. Retelling the Greatest Story Ever Told | Dallas Jenkins
Have you ever been one? Do you think that there's been a time in your life where you would have said, I don't believe there's a God, or have you always been agnostic on the verge of back and forth, you know, wrestling?
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
509. Retelling the Greatest Story Ever Told | Dallas Jenkins
Well, ironically enough, I was listening to a sermon from a pastor in Louisville whose name is Kyle Eidelman, and he did a sermon on the crucifixion. And the story of the crucifixion and Jesus' relationship with the two thieves on the cross takes just a few verses. Right.
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
509. Retelling the Greatest Story Ever Told | Dallas Jenkins
So in just a few verses, a man goes from mocking Jesus and seeing those mocking Jesus and joining in on the mockery, and within just a few verses, says, I want to be with you. I believe in you.
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
509. Retelling the Greatest Story Ever Told | Dallas Jenkins
As a storyteller, it's pretty bad storytelling. There's no journey. We just know he was mocking him a few verses later. He believed in him. You know, there's no... There's no three-act structure. I mean, I guess there's the first and the third act. There's the before and the after, but there's no middle. And so what would lead him? This pastor was saying, what might have he heard from Jesus
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
509. Retelling the Greatest Story Ever Told | Dallas Jenkins
that could have caused him to break, right? And so this pastor opined, not claiming fact, but he opined, what if it was, he was broken by Jesus' comment, forgive them, Father, for they know not what they do. You know, some of this, he's being mocked. Well, that would be a thing to be broken by if you actually saw it happen. Right.
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
509. Retelling the Greatest Story Ever Told | Dallas Jenkins
So you're mocking him, you're mocking him, you're joining in the mockery, and he's just completely, not only is he not phased and broken by it, he's actually praying for the forgiveness of the people who are doing it. And he means it. And he means it. Right, right.
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
509. Retelling the Greatest Story Ever Told | Dallas Jenkins
We need our own home and we need to stay in one spot. And so that's when we started to build some of these places on here in Texas on a property owned by the Salvation Army. There's no pun intended on that. It happens to just be the place that had... That's hilarious. Yeah, hundreds of acres of open land and some already interesting infrastructure. And so we built these sound stages.
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
509. Retelling the Greatest Story Ever Told | Dallas Jenkins
So that's what his opinion was, and I thought that was very compelling, and I thought, I want to make a short film where we unpack the backstory, the before. And that's a word we use all the time on the show.
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
509. Retelling the Greatest Story Ever Told | Dallas Jenkins
It's a very quick and easy answer. I'm a storyteller. So, you know, just for example, I watch your gospel series on Daily Wire, and I'm seeing extraordinary intellectuals wrestle with and discuss and debate.
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
509. Retelling the Greatest Story Ever Told | Dallas Jenkins
And I'm watching it, and of course it speaks to me because I love the gospels and I've been a believer as long as I can remember, and I've been tasked and stewarded with—again, fast forward for a second— with portraying the gospel story to the world through the medium of television in this way that has seemingly transcended cultures and boundaries.
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
509. Retelling the Greatest Story Ever Told | Dallas Jenkins
And so I'm interested in it from that perspective, but I listen to some of you talk and I go, yeah, that's fascinating, but my job and my calling and my interest and my skill set is to tell it as a story. And because I'm a storyteller, I'm attracted to the emotional as much or more than the intellectual.
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
509. Retelling the Greatest Story Ever Told | Dallas Jenkins
And so I've known these stories all my life, but ever since I was a kid, when I was a little kid, I would hear Sunday school stories, and I'm going, what would it have been like to sit around with Jesus at a campfire? What was it like to be a sibling of Jesus and to argue with him and then his parents come involved and they always side with Jesus because he's never wrong?
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
509. Retelling the Greatest Story Ever Told | Dallas Jenkins
What would it have been like to go to school with the perfect son of God? I was always intrigued by those and the reaction you just had where you chuckled. I'm like, that was me. And I would say that. I'd go, can you imagine what it would have been like to be Jesus' brother? Yeah. And to go, Mom, Jesus did this again. And his mom says, well, you need to make the adjustment.
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
509. Retelling the Greatest Story Ever Told | Dallas Jenkins
He's like, you're always on—Jesus can do no wrong. He's the perfect child. Mom's like, well, yes, he is actually. That's very funny. So those kinds of things, I was eight years old and was wrestling with that, right?
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
509. Retelling the Greatest Story Ever Told | Dallas Jenkins
Well, my father is an author of over 200 books. He's one of the most prolific authors of all time.
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
509. Retelling the Greatest Story Ever Told | Dallas Jenkins
And so I'm a storyteller in the classroom. I was a storyteller when I wasn't supposed to be. I've always been a storyteller. So when a pastor is unpacking three to four verses with an intellectual conclusion, the part that speaks most to me is the story part of it. What might have been the backstory? I'm like, well, I'm on the case.
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
509. Retelling the Greatest Story Ever Told | Dallas Jenkins
So right now we're in a sound stage that contains Caiaphas's house. 50 yards away is a potential place where we would film the Garden of Gethsemane. There's another building that has Simon Peter's house, Pontius Pilate's house. We had a place where we've got the room for the Last Supper. And then we've got a backlot where we've got a first century Capernaum recreation.
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
509. Retelling the Greatest Story Ever Told | Dallas Jenkins
And I know just enough, I'm a good enough formulating arguments to be dangerous. But at my heart, I always find that the way into The persuasion, if you want to look at it from that way, is storytelling. And it always seems to— Persuasion or communication? Both. Yeah, okay.
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
509. Retelling the Greatest Story Ever Told | Dallas Jenkins
So if I say to you right now, so this morning I wake up and I get out of bed, the simple fact of me saying that, you're going— Well, then what happened? Even though you know that it's probably, most likely, banal. It's not very few significant things happen when you just get out of bed. But you're intrigued, right? That's all I know. I don't know that I can intellectualize why.
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
509. Retelling the Greatest Story Ever Told | Dallas Jenkins
I just know that it works. And I know that... When I set out to make that short film about the two thieves, we showed their backstory. We showed how they met. We showed, again, all through not fact, but through what we call plausibility. Is it plausible? What would have been in the cultural context, the historical context?
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
509. Retelling the Greatest Story Ever Told | Dallas Jenkins
So my co-writer, Tyler Thompson, at the time had never written a screenplay in his life, but we were working at the same place. And he's brilliant at connecting the Old Testament to the New. He's brilliant with historical context and cultural context. And so we worked together. to fashion a plausible backstory for the two thieves.
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
509. Retelling the Greatest Story Ever Told | Dallas Jenkins
Jesus doesn't show up until the last five minutes of the short film. So we spend 20 minutes establishing the things that led these two thieves to be on the cross, and they finally get on the cross, and we get to the crucifixion moment when Jesus is there. And the audience, of course, in a church is going up. All right, now we're here. We get it.
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
509. Retelling the Greatest Story Ever Told | Dallas Jenkins
This is the crucifixion story we've heard so many times, but we're seeing all these comments from Jesus that are in Scripture. We're seeing them now through the lens of the two thieves on the cross, this backstory that we've been following. And so what happened, to your question, is the audience I saw and experienced, and they told me there was a significant aha moment. Right, right. A what?
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
509. Retelling the Greatest Story Ever Told | Dallas Jenkins
I had never considered this. It makes more sense to me now.
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
509. Retelling the Greatest Story Ever Told | Dallas Jenkins
Yes, now when I read these four verses, I actually can not only understand it perhaps a little better, but I also can see myself in the thief on the cross. And that's the problem with most biblical storytelling, is that it's through the eyes of Jesus.
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
509. Retelling the Greatest Story Ever Told | Dallas Jenkins
Jesus actually doesn't make for a good protagonist in a drama because he doesn't necessarily— outside of that moment in Scripture where it says he grew in wisdom and stature. But once his ministry starts, he doesn't make for a great protagonist because he doesn't necessarily learn. He doesn't necessarily go from bad to good or anything like that.
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
509. Retelling the Greatest Story Ever Told | Dallas Jenkins
And so when we see all these miracles that he's performing and these life change that he's causing, we don't know anything about the people that— That he's causing it for. That's a clunky way of saying it, but we don't—how can we unpack the woman who's been bleeding for 12 years and touches the hem of his garment?
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
509. Retelling the Greatest Story Ever Told | Dallas Jenkins
So it's all over the place, but within about half a mile of each other.
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
509. Retelling the Greatest Story Ever Told | Dallas Jenkins
Ignatius talked about that. He said, St. Ignatius, when he says, we're to read the Bible with a holy, a sacred imagination. Right, right, right. The text isn't meant, Protestants are uncomfortable with this. I'm an evangelical Protestant. I'm not a Catholic. So I'm raised to be a little more protective and faithful to the fidelity of the text, the text, the text.
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
509. Retelling the Greatest Story Ever Told | Dallas Jenkins
That's why there aren't too many things like the chosen because typically it's, well, we don't want to expand and your imagination can run wild into a dangerous area.
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
509. Retelling the Greatest Story Ever Told | Dallas Jenkins
An evangelical would say... Well, yes, it's hyperlinked, but stay there. Don't bring your own humanity into the imagination of it. Stick to the text. Yes, this verse is set up by a verse written thousands of years ago, and that's beautiful and that's perfect because God wrote this book. So that's okay.
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
509. Retelling the Greatest Story Ever Told | Dallas Jenkins
But when you start to bring your own analysis to it, now we're treading on thin ice, and that's for the realm of pastors to provide commentary, not for Dallas Jenkins to tell his own story.
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
509. Retelling the Greatest Story Ever Told | Dallas Jenkins
So you look at a movie like The Last Temptation of Christ from Martin Scorsese's exploration of things, and most Christians were horrified to imply—I mean, Scorsese was exploring Jesus as humanity, and it went too far, right?
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
509. Retelling the Greatest Story Ever Told | Dallas Jenkins
But then it's put in the hands of a— struggling Catholic... Right, right, right. ...who has made movies that most Christians would never even dare to see. But, of course, if you look closely, you can see a spiritual beauty in Taxi Driver and in Raging Bull and some other things.
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
509. Retelling the Greatest Story Ever Told | Dallas Jenkins
But it's a little too... Risqué, you might say.
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
509. Retelling the Greatest Story Ever Told | Dallas Jenkins
Yeah, yeah, yeah. So... So... I became comfortable with that as an evangelical, and my church was comfortable with it. Not only comfortable— Why? Well, because it felt so plausible, and yet it was rooted in a fidelity to Scripture, meaning it wasn't made by someone who doubts it.
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
509. Retelling the Greatest Story Ever Told | Dallas Jenkins
You know, you look at the movie Noah from Darren Aronofsky where many Christians were offended by that because he was exploring the story of Noah as an environmentalist manifesto of sorts. And Ridley Scott doing the Exodus story about Moses and he's clearly not a believer. Right. And so that was clear.
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
509. Retelling the Greatest Story Ever Told | Dallas Jenkins
Correct, but when it's in the hands of someone like myself who is a believer and who has been raised and trained in fidelity to Scripture and loves it. So my artistic imagination has some boundaries to it that I'm happy to— See, this is what Jonathan Paggio has done on the iconography side, right?
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
509. Retelling the Greatest Story Ever Told | Dallas Jenkins
It was birthed from failure. So for... Coming up on 20 years leading up to 2017, I've been a filmmaker for that long. I've made several films with varying degrees of success, but all independent, outside of the studio system. When you hear the term indie film or independent film, it means not financed by the studios.
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
509. Retelling the Greatest Story Ever Told | Dallas Jenkins
Yeah, yeah. Okay. So maybe that accounts for why— Jonathan's iconography is intended to point people to the thing. Yeah, not to him, for example. Not to him or to the icon itself. Right, right. An icon is not an object of worship. If it was, it would be an idol. Yes. And we're warned against idolatry. But iconography points people to the thing. So I know my place in this.
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
509. Retelling the Greatest Story Ever Told | Dallas Jenkins
in this story, which is I'm not replacing the Bible. I'm not God. Jonathan Rumi, who plays Jesus, is not Jesus. And the show isn't Scripture. Are you a prophet?
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
509. Retelling the Greatest Story Ever Told | Dallas Jenkins
A herald is calling you to look at the thing, and he's gathering you, right?
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
509. Retelling the Greatest Story Ever Told | Dallas Jenkins
I went to Israel in 2017 with Rabbi Jason Sobel, who's the Messianic Jewish rabbi, who's one of our consultants. And so I went to Israel, and I'll get to that in a bit, because there was a profound... spiritual moment that happened there, too.
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
509. Retelling the Greatest Story Ever Told | Dallas Jenkins
But one of the things that happened on that trip was we went to the Sea of Galilee and saw, while we're talking about what took place at the Sea of Galilee and investigating it, there happened to be a man on a boat who was fishing with his net. And it was extraordinary, and it was an old-fashioned boat. It was not, you know, a
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
509. Retelling the Greatest Story Ever Told | Dallas Jenkins
a motorboat, you know, and he's gathering, and there's a parable that Jesus gives in the Gospels about the parable of the nets, where he says a fisherman's job is to gather the fish, and they separate the good from the rotten, and they toss the rotten back in, so it will be at the end of the age. You gather the fish, and the angels will separate the evil from the righteous.
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
509. Retelling the Greatest Story Ever Told | Dallas Jenkins
I'm calling you to be a fisher of men. He says that to Simon Peter.
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
509. Retelling the Greatest Story Ever Told | Dallas Jenkins
So we had one of the profound moments, not the ultimate one, but one of them was me going, I think that's what I am. I'm a gatherer. I gather fish into the net, and I let God work out what the result of that is.
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
509. Retelling the Greatest Story Ever Told | Dallas Jenkins
I've had varying degrees of success, but I was very eager to make a film that was either financed or affirmed or endorsed by Hollywood, and I finally got a chance to do that in 2016. It released in 2017.
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
509. Retelling the Greatest Story Ever Told | Dallas Jenkins
I'm not trying to convert you in my show, although that has happened to be a very common occurrence, or I'm not hoping— No, that's one of the reasons that your show can be watched, as far as I'm concerned, because—
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
509. Retelling the Greatest Story Ever Told | Dallas Jenkins
It doesn't look like it to me. That's where the feeding of the 5,000 story, again, rears its, I wouldn't say ugly head, rears its beautiful head, because when I'm writing, I'm not thinking about trying to, quote-unquote, convert or even feed 5,000 people. I'm trying to tell a great story. Right, right.
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
509. Retelling the Greatest Story Ever Told | Dallas Jenkins
I'm trying to honor God and tell as close as I can the truth of the character and intentions of Jesus in the Gospels. And so that's my job in these—and when I first started doing it with my co-writer— Are you guarding your—okay, so this is a very tricky question, I suppose.
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
509. Retelling the Greatest Story Ever Told | Dallas Jenkins
All your other questions have been completely—they've just been— Nothing, I know.
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
509. Retelling the Greatest Story Ever Told | Dallas Jenkins
So January 20th, 2017, turned out to be the lowest moment of my life or at least my career because the film that I had gotten a chance to make released in theaters around the country with several big Hollywood studios attached and working on it, and it completely failed. And that was which film? It was called The Resurrection of Gavin Stone.
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
509. Retelling the Greatest Story Ever Told | Dallas Jenkins
Right. I tell people that all the time. They'll say, why do you do this show? And when I'm sitting with my laptop in my living room, if I'm thinking about... this scene will cause YouTube videos to come up like they have over the last several years about me.
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
509. Retelling the Greatest Story Ever Told | Dallas Jenkins
You can look on YouTube right now and find plenty of videos talking about my heresy and that I'm leading people to hell because I'm not just, you know, whatever. Or you can find videos that are saying that I'm the greatest storyteller ever and that this show has changed their life. If I start to seek to pursue the latter and avoid the former, then I'm not making a good story.
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
509. Retelling the Greatest Story Ever Told | Dallas Jenkins
So my comfort... With telling those stories in the way that I am could have only come from that moment at 4 o'clock in the morning where I gave up. So the feeding the 5,000 that I felt responsible for not only refers to financial success, it refers to spiritual success. achievement, right? Mission.
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
509. Retelling the Greatest Story Ever Told | Dallas Jenkins
I can't feel like my mission is to convert more people or gather more fish or when I gather them, I'm responsible for putting the righteous in this boat and the evil into the... That's God's job, right? So I'm a gatherer, I'm a herald. So that's to your question. Yeah, okay, okay, okay. So my comfort with...
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
509. Retelling the Greatest Story Ever Told | Dallas Jenkins
telling those stories could have only happened after that moment that happened at four o'clock in the morning. And so what happened after we've had several short films and vignettes over the years that had that resulted in that aha moment, it was clear that we were onto something. It was clear that telling stories from a different lens allowed people to unpack it differently.
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
509. Retelling the Greatest Story Ever Told | Dallas Jenkins
So for example, I filmed a vignette around the crucifixion where Peter is wrestling with, how is this possible that the Messiah could have died? If he's the Messiah, why would he die? I must have missed it, right? And so he's flashing— Bad outcome. Right.
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
509. Retelling the Greatest Story Ever Told | Dallas Jenkins
So he's flashing back to when Jesus called him Peter and called him the rock and said, you now have the keys to the kingdom of heaven, yada, yada. So he's flashing back to that moment. Well, I went to that moment, and I started it with two disciples arm wrestling. And they're just having fun around the fire. This goes back to my eight-year-old self.
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
509. Retelling the Greatest Story Ever Told | Dallas Jenkins
What would it have been like to sit around the fire with Jesus and the 12 disciples? And they're just friends. What are they doing? And so they're arm wrestling. And I have one of the disciples have a surprise victory over the other. The other one had been undefeated. And Andrew defeats Thaddeus. And they go, oh my goodness, look what happened. He won.
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
509. Retelling the Greatest Story Ever Told | Dallas Jenkins
And the fact that you haven't heard of it is part of the reason why it didn't do very well. So what happens is on a Friday afternoon, a math equation takes place. The numbers come in from the East Coast, and you can then decipher how a movie is going to do that day, how it's going to do that weekend, and most often how it's going to do for the life of it.
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
509. Retelling the Greatest Story Ever Told | Dallas Jenkins
And John says, I can't believe Andrew beat Thaddeus. And Jesus says, even I didn't see that coming, right? Jesus making a joke about his own divinity. And I remember leading up to that, my wife, Amanda, had even said, I don't know. I don't know if this is, you know, sometimes people are uncomfortable with so much humanity of Jesus, right? I'm assuming. That's a good joke. Right.
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
509. Retelling the Greatest Story Ever Told | Dallas Jenkins
That's what I think. It's a good joke, yeah. So I remember. I'll never forget it. I'm watching, I'm waiting, that joke comes, and the audience laughs hard, but I'm a fairly good audience gauger, and I could tell it was not only just a laughter of humor, it was a laughter of relief.
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
509. Retelling the Greatest Story Ever Told | Dallas Jenkins
The air was let out of the balloon, maybe. And I've had people coming up to me going, oh my goodness, seeing Jesus have fun, seeing Jesus laugh with his friends. was a revelatory moment for them. It unlocked—it made everything else make more sense. It brought it more— Brought some play into it.
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
509. Retelling the Greatest Story Ever Told | Dallas Jenkins
Of course, but then by that—then it opens you to the next part, which is when he calls Peter Rock the serious stuff. Your soil is tilled because you're laughing, because you're charmed, because—and this clearly must have been how Jesus was, because why else would children have found him so attractive? Why else would thousands of people follow him around just to hear him speak?
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
509. Retelling the Greatest Story Ever Told | Dallas Jenkins
So it was not an offensive thing. It was a life-giving thing. And so we learned that that worked, right? So that was the training ground for what happened.
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
509. Retelling the Greatest Story Ever Told | Dallas Jenkins
So a few months, fast forward to a few months after my failure, after my moment at four in the morning, and I take the script that we had written a year and a half earlier about the birth of Christ from the perspective of the shepherds, put it on the shelf because of my Hollywood movie, right? Yeah. Well, I'm thinking I'm willing to drive a bus. I'm willing to get a normal job, whatever it takes.
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
509. Retelling the Greatest Story Ever Told | Dallas Jenkins
But, you know, let's pull this off. And I'm still working at this church. I've still got the security of that job. I say to them, you want to do another short film? Let's film it for Christmas Eve. And they loved it, right? So I'm on my friend's farm in Illinois, 20 minutes from my house.
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
509. Retelling the Greatest Story Ever Told | Dallas Jenkins
I'm filming this short film called The Shepherd, and it's about what the shepherds would have been experiencing that morning, and what it would have been like to be a shepherd, and what it would have been like to be in the marketplace that day in Bethlehem, selling your sheep for slaughter.
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
509. Retelling the Greatest Story Ever Told | Dallas Jenkins
And then that night, while you're out in the field, you're visited by a host of angels and choosing you as shepherds, the lowliest of the low in society. So we're going to unpack that. We see it in Scripture briefly, but... Scripture doesn't say the shepherds who happen to be lowly and happen to be poor. And you have to unpack that somehow. You have to get that from somewhere besides Scripture.
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
509. Retelling the Greatest Story Ever Told | Dallas Jenkins
So that's what we're doing. And that short film, while I was making it, Again, it felt like a big step down from a Hollywood opportunity. Again, I'm on my friend's farm in Illinois.
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
509. Retelling the Greatest Story Ever Told | Dallas Jenkins
Yeah, right. So I'm making this little thing, and I'm like, why is it that this feels so small, and yet I'm more comfortable than I've ever been?
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
509. Retelling the Greatest Story Ever Told | Dallas Jenkins
Right, and that's where I go, loaves and fish, loaves and fish. I'm just focused on the five and two, and this is my five and two right now. It didn't even feel like five and two. It feels like one and a half. It's small, but it's life-giving, and I'm good at it. I can tell I'm better at this than I am— anything else. Biblical storytelling seems to be easier for me.
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
509. Retelling the Greatest Story Ever Told | Dallas Jenkins
And within a couple hours, I went from being a filmmaker who had a very bright future to a filmmaker with no future because the movie bombed. The other stories that we were hoping to tell with these companies, the companies said, no, never mind. Apparently, clearly we don't understand this audience, this approach, the kind of faith-based filmmaking.
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
509. Retelling the Greatest Story Ever Told | Dallas Jenkins
I don't struggle with it as much. I'm on set. I'm more comfortable.
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
509. Retelling the Greatest Story Ever Told | Dallas Jenkins
Yes, yes. So I'm telling the story, and I love it, and I'm feeling like it's good. And while I'm doing that... I'm also—I'm binge-watching The Wire on HBO, which is a show that's been around for years, and it's vulgar, but I'm binge-watching it, and I'm appreciating the storytelling and how the show covers multiple—it covers the cops, it covers the city hall, it covers the people on the streets.
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
509. Retelling the Greatest Story Ever Told | Dallas Jenkins
It's a crime show, but it covers multiple angles, and I'm like, that's never been done before in a Jesus story. You know, in a Jesus movie or miniseries, that's all there's ever been is movies and miniseries, which are limited by their time.
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
509. Retelling the Greatest Story Ever Told | Dallas Jenkins
And because of their limited time, they don't explore much more than, and then Jesus did this, and then this verse, verse by verse, miracle to miracle, that's what these are. And I'm like, what if we had a multi-season show where you have the time to develop the backstories and develop this context like I did in 20 Minutes in the birth story?
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
509. Retelling the Greatest Story Ever Told | Dallas Jenkins
Oh, yeah, cool. But no one's lining up around the block to do a show about Jesus, and certainly not with someone like myself who's failed. coming off of her career failure. But I'm like, boy, whoever does this I think is going to be really smart because I think it's going to really impact people like these short stories seem to do.
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
509. Retelling the Greatest Story Ever Told | Dallas Jenkins
Very, very long story short, the short film got in the hands of a streaming platform at the time. It was called VidAngel. They loved it. VidAngel at the time. They're now Angel Studios.
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
509. Retelling the Greatest Story Ever Told | Dallas Jenkins
Yeah, yeah. And they loved the short film and loved my idea for our show. And they said, we want to do this. We want to support you. And I said, great. And I was very excited. And they said we should raise money.
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
509. Retelling the Greatest Story Ever Told | Dallas Jenkins
And they watched that short film and burst into almost uncontrollable tears.
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
509. Retelling the Greatest Story Ever Told | Dallas Jenkins
That's good. There's something— You hit a chord. There was something almost transcendent about what happened with that short film, that little thing I did on my friend's farm 20 minutes from my house. People—so when they said, we're going to put it on social media, and that will be the tool to raise crowdfunding.
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
509. Retelling the Greatest Story Ever Told | Dallas Jenkins
I thought it was a ridiculous idea. Aha. But Loaves and Fish— Right, that's for sure. A year ago, I would have said, no, that won't work. Therefore, we must do a different plan. It required some outside-of-the-box thinkers who aren't conventional to come up with the idea, and it required a broken, surrendered, humbled man to accept the idea.
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
509. Retelling the Greatest Story Ever Told | Dallas Jenkins
My job is to provide this short film, and then to humbly request people, if you love this, you can contribute to season one of this multi-season Bible show.
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
509. Retelling the Greatest Story Ever Told | Dallas Jenkins
Yeah, yeah. And for whatever reason, 16,000 people around the world contributed $10 million based on this little 20-minute short film.
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
509. Retelling the Greatest Story Ever Told | Dallas Jenkins
Talk about a market test. But also talk about my wife a year later, once when we hit that $10 million mark and shattered the all-time crowdfunding record for media projects. And now it comes into understanding what we were being communicated a year earlier from God, which is, see, surrender. Five loaves and two fish.
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
509. Retelling the Greatest Story Ever Told | Dallas Jenkins
And so out of that, I was home alone with my wife, Amanda. And we were crying and praying and confused because You hear all the time, God's not the author of failure. And so when you fail, you must assume that the calling that you thought you'd received to do this work must not have been a true calling.
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
509. Retelling the Greatest Story Ever Told | Dallas Jenkins
At the time, VidAngel, now they're called- VidAngel, and then it was Angel Studios.
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
509. Retelling the Greatest Story Ever Told | Dallas Jenkins
Okay, so you raise... Right, but at no point during the process am I ever skipping steps. I'm still at the Loaves and Fish step, Loaves and Fish step.
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
509. Retelling the Greatest Story Ever Told | Dallas Jenkins
So, oh, we raised $10 million. Well, that's amazing. That's cool. The old me would have felt pretty darn good about myself and said, well, this should lead to then the next thing.
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
509. Retelling the Greatest Story Ever Told | Dallas Jenkins
Yes, no, no, no. Okay, now I'm tasked with making season one.
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
509. Retelling the Greatest Story Ever Told | Dallas Jenkins
Sure, but I don't think it would have been possible. Well, no, no, I should say that again. I know it wouldn't have been possible, and I don't think God would have given it to me had I not had the surrender. Yeah, right? It's as much about my own brokenness as it was about, oh, you finally figured it out. You finally figured out what you're good at. Now you're ready to succeed.
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
509. Retelling the Greatest Story Ever Told | Dallas Jenkins
It's, no, you finally figured out... the surrender necessary to even be good at what you do. The show right now is better than what I'm doing.
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
509. Retelling the Greatest Story Ever Told | Dallas Jenkins
I've made a couple of good decisions. I'll give myself credit. I've made good five loaves and two fish. I'm not going to be falsely modest about that. But the feeding of the 5,000 not only is not something I don't think about while I'm doing it, I also don't take responsibility for it when it happens. I take responsibility for making really good five loaves and two fish. Yeah.
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
509. Retelling the Greatest Story Ever Told | Dallas Jenkins
You know, any time we feel called to something, it's hard to decipher sometimes whether it's a calling from God— Or a temptation. Or a temptation, or just a desire, a fleshly desire. And sometimes it's a fleshly desire, and it's okay. It's not, you know— When we choose what we're going to eat for dinner tonight, I don't wait for God to reveal it to me.
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
509. Retelling the Greatest Story Ever Told | Dallas Jenkins
Figured out the recipe and I catch good fish and God uses them and they're impacting people so that we get to that place where now I have the means to do season one, yet still not knowing if there's going to be a season two. Yeah. God never lets me get ahead of myself or feel comfortable with, well, now I've finally arrived.
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
509. Retelling the Greatest Story Ever Told | Dallas Jenkins
So we make season one and it takes some time to resonate because it's on a new app and it's hard to find. Right.
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
509. Retelling the Greatest Story Ever Told | Dallas Jenkins
So a whole other episode could talk about the business assumptions that were wrong over and over and over again before how many times we had to start all over to figure things out. But long story short, it was clear that when people did watch it, there was a transcendent response of some kind. I mean, it was clear that the emotion of it, the humanity of it.
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
509. Retelling the Greatest Story Ever Told | Dallas Jenkins
I consider my job to be twofold as a storyteller and as a herald. Number one, it's to take Jesus down from stained glass windows and to take the disciples down from stained glass windows and to the formality of religion that sometimes can distance ourselves from Jesus. from a pure relationship with God.
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
509. Retelling the Greatest Story Ever Told | Dallas Jenkins
Sometimes, you know, we say that, we evangelicals sometimes say religion is about man's attempts to reach God. A true relationship with true Christianity is about God's attempts to reach man. It depends on how, when you see the painting of Jesus, of God and the Father and Adam pointing at each other, who's reaching for who, right?
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
509. Retelling the Greatest Story Ever Told | Dallas Jenkins
Evangelicals look at it like God's reaching for Adam and he's accepting it, right? He's receiving it. And so my job is to remove the religiosity of how we oftentimes see God. And we see him in paintings or stained glass windows. And then even when we sometimes watch movies, he still feels like a stained glass window.
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
509. Retelling the Greatest Story Ever Told | Dallas Jenkins
He's very formal and distant and pious and not funny or not interesting or not charismatic. And so my show is designed to bring... Jesus down from the stained glass window or from the statue and remind you that he's a human being in addition to his divinity. Of course, we still see him perform miracles and claim authority in the show.
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
509. Retelling the Greatest Story Ever Told | Dallas Jenkins
But I'm curious for you as someone who is so intellectual, when you saw Jesus, for example, in The Chosen brushing his teeth in a stream or winking at a friend or laughing— at the wedding at Cana when, you know, before he does the miracle, he's dancing with his friends, and then it turns out ultimately the miracle comes down to a favor for his friends because his mom asked him to.
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
509. Retelling the Greatest Story Ever Told | Dallas Jenkins
Did you find that that diminished his divinity, or did you find that it enhanced it? I'm just curious for someone like yourself, because for most people who watched it, it was revelatory.
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
509. Retelling the Greatest Story Ever Told | Dallas Jenkins
Well, and how many people were telling you? Like, you probably had viewers and listeners going, yeah, watch the show.
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
509. Retelling the Greatest Story Ever Told | Dallas Jenkins
Because Christians all over the world have looked at you for the last several years as almost like a gateway drug into Christianity, but still hoping. When is Jordan Peterson, like, do you believe? Have you met the need?
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
509. Retelling the Greatest Story Ever Told | Dallas Jenkins
I just have a desire for something, and it's fine. But I had spent two years of my life developing this story and seeing so many moments throughout that where doors were opening and God clearly seemed to be present. And so then when it failed, I thought, I guess I was wrong. I guess God wasn't present and wasn't calling me to this. And so in the midst of my devastation,
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
509. Retelling the Greatest Story Ever Told | Dallas Jenkins
How many Christians have you met have gone, so do you believe Jesus rose from the dead?
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
509. Retelling the Greatest Story Ever Told | Dallas Jenkins
It's like... Yeah, people are competing for Dr. Jordan Peterson to bring them into their fold the correct way.
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
509. Retelling the Greatest Story Ever Told | Dallas Jenkins
Because Michaela had a similar—she just decided to surrender and give her life to Jesus, and then— Yeah, well, she had a very powerful experience that preceded that.
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
509. Retelling the Greatest Story Ever Told | Dallas Jenkins
Well, then that probably eliminates me as a reader, but I'll try.
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
509. Retelling the Greatest Story Ever Told | Dallas Jenkins
What did you think of the things like Jesus brushing his teeth in a stream, which seem normal, but to an average Christian, they've never thought of it before.
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
509. Retelling the Greatest Story Ever Told | Dallas Jenkins
I'm going to put that on our poster. Well, it's a hard— Dr. Jordan Peterson, more than pleased to continue watching.
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
509. Retelling the Greatest Story Ever Told | Dallas Jenkins
Amanda came to me and said, I feel very strongly and clearly like God is putting it on my heart. Open the story of the feeding of the 5,000 in the Gospels. I don't know why. I just know that that's what we're supposed to do. So we open the Bible to the feeding of the 5,000. That's a story I've heard many times before. I've been a believer as long as I can remember.
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
509. Retelling the Greatest Story Ever Told | Dallas Jenkins
Or even the similarity of the previous three seasons. As an artist, we have to break out. We have to do something different.
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
509. Retelling the Greatest Story Ever Told | Dallas Jenkins
Well, everyone who's seen it so far, this is season five, we're currently finishing it, and those who've seen it and read the scripts and the actors who... Like, while we were filming it, we're all saying, oh, this is our best season yet. Oh, oh, that's good. Yeah, and it's... And you might think, well, they're just biased. There's recency bias. No, they... No, they could get exhausted.
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
509. Retelling the Greatest Story Ever Told | Dallas Jenkins
Because they go into each season, when they get the scripts, the actors and the crew going, oh, please be good. Right, right. Expecting it to do what you just said, which is to start to wane. Yeah. And I would argue that we've gotten better as storytellers and as filmmakers. Now, to be fair, we're blessed by the story. I mean, season five is Holy Week.
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
509. Retelling the Greatest Story Ever Told | Dallas Jenkins
It's the most impactful and important week in the history of humanity.
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
509. Retelling the Greatest Story Ever Told | Dallas Jenkins
There's a big mouthful to chew. And you see Jesus show sides of himself he's never shown, which is turning over the tables of the temple and yelling and then willingly giving himself up. And you see the betrayer emerge. Judas breaks bad during Holy Week, right? Yeah. A million people both— Conspiring with Caiaphas. Yes, where we are now.
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
509. Retelling the Greatest Story Ever Told | Dallas Jenkins
And, of course, in Holy Week, in history, it was over a million people all gathered in one city, as many friends of Jesus as enemies. Believers and people who wanted him killed, and they're all in one powder keg. Right, right, right. So that makes— Hot town, hot time in the old town tonight. So I can't take too much credit for the unique excitement of season five.
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
509. Retelling the Greatest Story Ever Told | Dallas Jenkins
It's not necessarily that I'm a better storyteller, although I think I am, but it's also that the text is giving me so much to work with. But I think another thing that sometimes causes people to—shows to wane is what you said earlier, which is they get enraptured by the success. And so I always am brought back to that moment, back at 4 o'clock in the morning,
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
509. Retelling the Greatest Story Ever Told | Dallas Jenkins
in the morning and I surrendered and recognized my own humanity and my own sinfulness and my own narcissism and my own need for surrender and my giving of all and God strike my soul if I if I go back to who I was the day before.
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
509. Retelling the Greatest Story Ever Told | Dallas Jenkins
So what about that story was for us? Well, the thing that we noticed in that story was that Jesus had been preaching for several days. The disciples come to him and they say, Master, the people are hungry. We need to send them home to get food. And what I hadn't noticed before in the story was that Jesus didn't say, oh, good point. I hadn't realized that. We should get this taken care of.
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
509. Retelling the Greatest Story Ever Told | Dallas Jenkins
And you just brought up what I think is a potentially strong, I don't know if I want to call it a conclusion to our conversation about the specifics of the show, but to an understanding of what I think makes the show work, which is that Jesus knows our hearts. He wants a relationship. He wants a relationship with you specifically.
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
509. Retelling the Greatest Story Ever Told | Dallas Jenkins
So whether he's healing you, calling you to follow him, or rebuking you, it's not based on a paint-by-numbers, one-size-fits-all. He knows what's in your heart. He knew what I needed to become the creator of the chosen. It wasn't the same thing as someone else needed, right? He spoke to me directly and...
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
509. Retelling the Greatest Story Ever Told | Dallas Jenkins
And my wife Amanda is here uniquely to make sure that I don't go back to who I was, you know, the day before that moment. And so when Jesus calls us differently, I mean, the message of salvation is the same, but the calling is specific. And that's what you see in the show, is that when you see Jesus in the show— We've probably, by season five, have shown, I don't know, a dozen or more miracles.
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
509. Retelling the Greatest Story Ever Told | Dallas Jenkins
More than that, callings, rebukes, all of that. But each time, it's specific to the heart of the person he's talking to. And we do that cinematographically, too. We shrink the moment so that it feels personal.
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
509. Retelling the Greatest Story Ever Told | Dallas Jenkins
And what everyone says to me when they recognize me in public, nine times out of ten, and I'm not exaggerating when I say this, will say to me, thank you for the show, and they'll start to cry. Mm-hmm. And you experience this too. How many people, when they meet you, start to cry? Not because you're a celebrity, but because something's changed. Something's changed.
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
509. Retelling the Greatest Story Ever Told | Dallas Jenkins
I've experienced that in my life. We'll talk about this off camera, but some of the people in our lives who you've changed just from something you've said or written. And so people will come up to me and they'll start to cry. But nine times out of ten, when they say something about the show, it's always, it feels personal.
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
509. Retelling the Greatest Story Ever Told | Dallas Jenkins
It doesn't feel like I'm walking in and I love St. Peter's Basilica.
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
509. Retelling the Greatest Story Ever Told | Dallas Jenkins
And that's what I mean when I say I'm taking him down from the stained glass window. So I visit St. Peter's Basilica in Italy, and it's one of the most, probably the most beautiful thing I've ever seen in my life.
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
509. Retelling the Greatest Story Ever Told | Dallas Jenkins
It can be to the wrong person or in the wrong place. It can be distancing. It can make you go, is this the only way to reach God is to create this level of beauty, and he's up there on the ceiling, or he's in that painting and that structure? I can't access him. I have to be quiet as I walk through it. I have to admire it. I don't have a relationship with it.
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
509. Retelling the Greatest Story Ever Told | Dallas Jenkins
And I certainly don't have a relationship personally with him. And so when my job is and what I'm experiencing myself and what you see in the show is, again, what I talked about earlier, Jesus reaching for you. You might be reaching for him and think that you have to do this perfect thing, and that's oftentimes what happens in the Old Testament. It has to be perfect, perfect, perfect.
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
509. Retelling the Greatest Story Ever Told | Dallas Jenkins
Jesus comes in and says, you know what? It's never fully going to get there. It's never going to be perfect enough, so I'll do it for you. I will be that perfection. I will be that sacrifice. I will be the perfect sacrifice that Cain couldn't come up with. And so in doing that, it makes it personal and human.
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
509. Retelling the Greatest Story Ever Told | Dallas Jenkins
And so when Jesus is healing the woman who's been bleeding for 12 years, or he's healing the man who's been blind for so long, or he's saving Simon Peter who is a believer, but who is focused on accomplishment and trying to catch as many fish as he can so that he can pay his taxes. And Jesus comes in and calls him to something greater, which is a fisher of men, not a fisher of fish.
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
509. Retelling the Greatest Story Ever Told | Dallas Jenkins
And all that is happening on a personal level, and it's causing people to respond emotionally.
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
509. Retelling the Greatest Story Ever Told | Dallas Jenkins
He already knew it. In fact, it was his fault they were hungry. He'd been talking for two days, two, three days. And his response was, oh, no, we can't send them home because they're so hungry they'll faint along the way. So we realized in that moment, just because you're at a place of hunger and desperation doesn't necessarily mean that God's not in it. And in fact, it may mean he is in it.
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
509. Retelling the Greatest Story Ever Told | Dallas Jenkins
So my belief is that... As we've seen you, Jordan Peterson, over the last several years come to grips with the suffering you experienced, the physical suffering you experienced when you kind of disappeared for a year. And those of us who were fans are going, how is he doing?
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
509. Retelling the Greatest Story Ever Told | Dallas Jenkins
And you came back out of that and described it and talked about it and your relationship with your wife and your daughter and all of the stories that we keep seeing on podcasts. And you talk about a dream that you've had. I mean, all the things that we've seen and people asking you questions. Do you believe Jesus actually walked out of the tomb?
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
509. Retelling the Greatest Story Ever Told | Dallas Jenkins
It's watching—I think people feel more connected to you than ever because they're seeing not only these brilliant lectures that you've given and these books that you've written, but now I'm seeing you cry because you're describing a dream that you've had. And that makes me go, oh, no. Now I want to hear even more.
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
509. Retelling the Greatest Story Ever Told | Dallas Jenkins
And now some of the stuff that you're saying intellectually and broadly actually makes even more sense. And I'm even more connected to it. And I believe that's who God is. You know, I don't have the intellectual capability to do even some of the things you're doing in your gospel series for Daily Wire. But I know that God created and Jesus rose.
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
509. Retelling the Greatest Story Ever Told | Dallas Jenkins
And those two things are enough for me—they're not everything, but it's enough for me to go, if I know that and I believe that truly, then that makes everything else make sense.
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
509. Retelling the Greatest Story Ever Told | Dallas Jenkins
And now I can see some of these mysterious things through a foundation that's secure and solid and that I still do believe, even if I don't understand this story, I do believe God created, and I do believe Jesus rose from the dead. And so my job as a storyteller and as a herald is to make that palatable to the masses as much as possible so that they're not—
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
509. Retelling the Greatest Story Ever Told | Dallas Jenkins
resistant to or denied the opportunity to explore because of things like propaganda or church hurt or or even their own religion sometimes our own religion can get in the way of a relationship a personal relationship with jesus so i don't sit here writing going how am i going to accomplish this and i want to make sure that i'm sitting here just trying to tell a great story as much as well as i can and honor god and the text
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
509. Retelling the Greatest Story Ever Told | Dallas Jenkins
But I think that's what's happening. That's when people meet me and they start to cry and they thank me. It's they're saying, I saw Jesus wink or I saw Jesus look her in the eye or I saw Jesus come down to his level as opposed to staying here. And it broke me because I realized it's for me too, just not only for that person.
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
509. Retelling the Greatest Story Ever Told | Dallas Jenkins
And so that's what the chosen is doing for many people is if you can see Jesus through the eyes of those who actually met him, perhaps you can be changed and impacted in the same way they were. Or, as is also in the case for many people who watch the show, they love the historical drama. It's a good show. They appreciate it. 30% to 40% of our audience is nonbelievers.
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
509. Retelling the Greatest Story Ever Told | Dallas Jenkins
We've been able to track that now. That's good. And we're hearing from people who go, I don't believe he was the son of God, but I love this show, and I'm intrigued, and I'm following along, and I find myself wanting to be a better person, or I'm finding myself wanting to—whatever it is. And so—
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
509. Retelling the Greatest Story Ever Told | Dallas Jenkins
Perhaps they don't ever bend the knee to the Son of God that I believe He is, but I'm not trying to get you to do that when you watch the show. That's God's job. I'm gathering.
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
509. Retelling the Greatest Story Ever Told | Dallas Jenkins
Depending on your theology, he either allowed it or he caused it. But being brought to that place of hunger and desperation doesn't necessarily mean that God— You're being abandoned.
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
509. Retelling the Greatest Story Ever Told | Dallas Jenkins
And then let me give you one other note. Yeah. The next show that I'm planning to do after The Chosen currently is The Moses Story, three seasons of Moses. Oh, oh, oh. And some fans are saying, oh, we wish you would go into the Book of Acts next because that's a continuation of the story. Right. And I'm going, actually—
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
509. Retelling the Greatest Story Ever Told | Dallas Jenkins
We need to pause for a moment, take you back to the Exodus and to Moses because Moses was the, I mean, Jesus is the new Moses. Moses turned the water to blood. So it's a prequel. Yeah, and so we're gonna, because we reference Moses a lot in the show. In fact, season five, which is coming soon, is the celebration of Passover.
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
509. Retelling the Greatest Story Ever Told | Dallas Jenkins
And so while I'm filming The Last Supper, what are they doing at The Last Supper? Well, they're remembering and honoring their heritage of the Exodus. And so it's very fascinating. So I don't know if there was a part of you that wanted to, you know, you've got two shows, Exodus and the Gospels.
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
509. Retelling the Greatest Story Ever Told | Dallas Jenkins
Correct. But I'm also recognizing their cohesiveness. Right, right. So if you wanted to touch on that, I'm willing to do that as well.
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
509. Retelling the Greatest Story Ever Told | Dallas Jenkins
Why did God tell the Israelites to camp out at the edge of the Red Sea? in advance of the Israelites being pursued by the Egyptians, he said, go to the edge of the Red Sea and camp out. He put them in this place where they had no place to go. When the Egyptians came and pursued them, they had no escape. And he put them there on purpose.
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
509. Retelling the Greatest Story Ever Told | Dallas Jenkins
Thank you.
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
509. Retelling the Greatest Story Ever Told | Dallas Jenkins
And he says three times in a span of several verses, so that I will get glory.
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
509. Retelling the Greatest Story Ever Told | Dallas Jenkins
Yeah, so that didn't happen until that night. So in the midst of the failure, you're wrestling with what caused it. And for me as an analyzer, I analyze well. I solve problems. I wrestle with causes and effects. It's one of the things that I'm fairly good at. And then I'm realizing maybe I'm not good at it. Maybe I'm not. Maybe I'm not. So there's the calling. Yeah, yeah, for sure.
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
509. Retelling the Greatest Story Ever Told | Dallas Jenkins
There's the calling. There's the spiritual direction that I believe God had given me. Now I'm questioning whether that's real. Yeah, well, that's the thing about— And then there's the surface. There's the practical. What mistakes did I make to bring me to this place?
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
509. Retelling the Greatest Story Ever Told | Dallas Jenkins
So in the afternoon, Friday afternoon, it was the latter. I'm so consumed by that that I don't have room in my head or heart to start to wrestle yet with the practical. Was it a mistake, a strategic error? Right now it's a, have the last 20 years of my life led to this? I need to learn how to drive a bus so that I can provide for my family. So that's what I'm worried about.
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
509. Retelling the Greatest Story Ever Told | Dallas Jenkins
So God brings us to the latter. He's saying, he's helping us wrestle with Our calling, and his first message to us, or at least what we are wrestling with, is the macro level, the foundation to your point. Was I wrong all along?
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
509. Retelling the Greatest Story Ever Told | Dallas Jenkins
So in that moment, reading that story of the feet of the 5,000 was very comforting because it's a, okay, this doesn't necessarily mean that God's abandoned me to your point or that I'm fundamentally flawed in my calling. Now, I don't know what's next.
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
509. Retelling the Greatest Story Ever Told | Dallas Jenkins
Yeah, so... I'll get to that because what I did was in the moment, I'm struggling with faith in myself, for sure. Struggling with faith in my ability to hear God's voice and know what I'm supposed to be doing. And God brings in this reminder of a story that makes me feel a little bit better of foundation.