Clay Risen

Well, there were a couple. First of all is that when you hire the exterminator to come in, you really expect there to be rodents, right? And there's something here, too, where once you set up these loyalty boards in all these government agencies, it's sort of incumbent on them to find something. And, you know, look, I mean, there's always something to be found in someone's background.

And the FBI would investigate any rumors. And there was really no way for someone to fight back. You know, if it came up from an anonymous, there were a lot of anonymous sources in these investigations, you couldn't really challenge somebody. This wasn't a court proceeding. So people who found themselves targeted under these loyalty programs had very little recourse to clear their names.

And the FBI would investigate any rumors. And there was really no way for someone to fight back. You know, if it came up from an anonymous, there were a lot of anonymous sources in these investigations, you couldn't really challenge somebody. This wasn't a court proceeding. So people who found themselves targeted under these loyalty programs had very little recourse to clear their names.

And the FBI would investigate any rumors. And there was really no way for someone to fight back. You know, if it came up from an anonymous, there were a lot of anonymous sources in these investigations, you couldn't really challenge somebody. This wasn't a court proceeding. So people who found themselves targeted under these loyalty programs had very little recourse to clear their names.

The other thing that was a real problem was that One of the sets of criteria for judging somebody suspect was a list of organizations that the attorney general drew up at Truman's directive that were deemed subversive. And it started off with a few dozen. It ended up being a couple of hundred. And some of them were anodyne.

The other thing that was a real problem was that One of the sets of criteria for judging somebody suspect was a list of organizations that the attorney general drew up at Truman's directive that were deemed subversive. And it started off with a few dozen. It ended up being a couple of hundred. And some of them were anodyne.

The other thing that was a real problem was that One of the sets of criteria for judging somebody suspect was a list of organizations that the attorney general drew up at Truman's directive that were deemed subversive. And it started off with a few dozen. It ended up being a couple of hundred. And some of them were anodyne.

Some of them were by no stretch of the imagination a threat to national security. But if you had any connection, even secondhand, to one of these, your career was in jeopardy. And the list was not long. The list got out. And so it then became something for the private sector, for state and local governments to start to use. It became viral in that sense.

Some of them were by no stretch of the imagination a threat to national security. But if you had any connection, even secondhand, to one of these, your career was in jeopardy. And the list was not long. The list got out. And so it then became something for the private sector, for state and local governments to start to use. It became viral in that sense.

Some of them were by no stretch of the imagination a threat to national security. But if you had any connection, even secondhand, to one of these, your career was in jeopardy. And the list was not long. The list got out. And so it then became something for the private sector, for state and local governments to start to use. It became viral in that sense.

And the list became this test against which millions of Americans were judged.

And the list became this test against which millions of Americans were judged.

And the list became this test against which millions of Americans were judged.

Yeah, and look, I mean, some of them were fronts, but also some of the fronts were fairly anodyne. You know, if the Communist Party set up a club for writers and a writer joined it with no real interest in the Communist Party and maybe was in it for a year and then left and ended up in a government job somewhere, well, they would probably get fired years later for that.

Yeah, and look, I mean, some of them were fronts, but also some of the fronts were fairly anodyne. You know, if the Communist Party set up a club for writers and a writer joined it with no real interest in the Communist Party and maybe was in it for a year and then left and ended up in a government job somewhere, well, they would probably get fired years later for that.

Yeah, and look, I mean, some of them were fronts, but also some of the fronts were fairly anodyne. You know, if the Communist Party set up a club for writers and a writer joined it with no real interest in the Communist Party and maybe was in it for a year and then left and ended up in a government job somewhere, well, they would probably get fired years later for that.

Had they expressed any connection to communism by doing so? No. No. They had simply done this during that fluid period of the 1930s when this was de rigueur for the left.

Had they expressed any connection to communism by doing so? No. No. They had simply done this during that fluid period of the 1930s when this was de rigueur for the left.

Had they expressed any connection to communism by doing so? No. No. They had simply done this during that fluid period of the 1930s when this was de rigueur for the left.

No, no. You know, there were people identified and found out to have been spies for the Soviet Union, but not through this program. And, you know, the other thing that I think is important, and it's very—you can't prove a negative, but—