Claudina Bade

Yes, it's happened to me. And I was so surprised at how hurt I was. And when I look back, I think, like, I literally don't really know those people. Like, there's just something so, oh, it's like ancient, the feeling. Like, you're being pillory.

Yes, it's happened to me. And I was so surprised at how hurt I was. And when I look back, I think, like, I literally don't really know those people. Like, there's just something so, oh, it's like ancient, the feeling. Like, you're being pillory.

Well, I think the lesson to learn from that is what you're talking about in this book is how vulnerable we are. Even when it doesn't make intellectual sense, there is some way that we're vulnerable. you know, vulnerable in this moment. We can't completely control our reactions and choose voluntarily not to pay attention to this thing. We don't have that kind of agency, not yet, anyway.

Well, I think the lesson to learn from that is what you're talking about in this book is how vulnerable we are. Even when it doesn't make intellectual sense, there is some way that we're vulnerable. you know, vulnerable in this moment. We can't completely control our reactions and choose voluntarily not to pay attention to this thing. We don't have that kind of agency, not yet, anyway.

Well, let's talk about attention as a resource because we've talked a lot about how it works in us, the individuals, and permeates our lives. But I want to talk about a broader social context. You make this very compelling analogy between our attention problem and Marxist ideas. I did have this image of you at a bookstore one day, like, being bored and coming across a copy of Das Kapital.

Well, let's talk about attention as a resource because we've talked a lot about how it works in us, the individuals, and permeates our lives. But I want to talk about a broader social context. You make this very compelling analogy between our attention problem and Marxist ideas. I did have this image of you at a bookstore one day, like, being bored and coming across a copy of Das Kapital.

He's talking about attention in politics, commerce, social media, basically how capitalism found a uniquely human weakness to exploit. But since the topic is so often seen through the lens of parents and children, we started out sharing how we can feel like hypocrites when we police our kids' devices.

He's talking about attention in politics, commerce, social media, basically how capitalism found a uniquely human weakness to exploit. But since the topic is so often seen through the lens of parents and children, we started out sharing how we can feel like hypocrites when we police our kids' devices.

And, like, a lightning bolt goes off. Yes! It's like Marx, but for the information age. It's a really compelling analogy. Can you explain it?

And, like, a lightning bolt goes off. Yes! It's like Marx, but for the information age. It's a really compelling analogy. Can you explain it?

And how is that different from people's relationship to labor before? Just so we get the analogy.

And how is that different from people's relationship to labor before? Just so we get the analogy.

Called labor.

Called labor.

So we're not exactly compelled. Nobody's holding a gun to our head. So I don't know that you could say it's worse. It's just more confusing because we are participating.

So we're not exactly compelled. Nobody's holding a gun to our head. So I don't know that you could say it's worse. It's just more confusing because we are participating.

One consequence we're seeing is the kind of people who thrive in this age. Yes. Obviously, Donald Trump. You mention Elon Musk a lot in the book, which I think is a specific point. Like, the Trump point is kind of obvious. Like, why someone like that thrives in an age of attention, I think we intuitively understand that. Musk is a little more complicated.

One consequence we're seeing is the kind of people who thrive in this age. Yes. Obviously, Donald Trump. You mention Elon Musk a lot in the book, which I think is a specific point. Like, the Trump point is kind of obvious. Like, why someone like that thrives in an age of attention, I think we intuitively understand that. Musk is a little more complicated.

Oh, oh. Oh, Chris, 1,000%. Even the fact that we get to use the term screen time, and guess who doesn't get to use the term screen time? They can't be like, Dad, you only have an hour of screen time today.

Oh, oh. Oh, Chris, 1,000%. Even the fact that we get to use the term screen time, and guess who doesn't get to use the term screen time? They can't be like, Dad, you only have an hour of screen time today.

What do you mean? What do you define as the Musk era?

What do you mean? What do you define as the Musk era?

That seems so huge and overpowering. I mean, there's a way of listening to you and reading this book and fully seeing it. Like, we can see the train wreck in our own lives and sort of out there in the world. But you might read the book and think, okay, this is my own ordeal, like something I have to combat. I have to put my phone away. I have to chain myself to the trees or whatever.

That seems so huge and overpowering. I mean, there's a way of listening to you and reading this book and fully seeing it. Like, we can see the train wreck in our own lives and sort of out there in the world. But you might read the book and think, okay, this is my own ordeal, like something I have to combat. I have to put my phone away. I have to chain myself to the trees or whatever.

Do you think we're being exploited and we should be mad about it?

Do you think we're being exploited and we should be mad about it?

Well, I take hope in the schools. I mean, schools not just in the U.S., but all over the world are starting to get pretty serious about no phones at all during class time, which is radical. If you're a teenager, that's a radical change in your life. So that's hopeful. I will say one thing your book has really done for me very concretely is make me appreciate my group chats.

Well, I take hope in the schools. I mean, schools not just in the U.S., but all over the world are starting to get pretty serious about no phones at all during class time, which is radical. If you're a teenager, that's a radical change in your life. So that's hopeful. I will say one thing your book has really done for me very concretely is make me appreciate my group chats.

I like after I read your book, I went back and I like thanked, you know, I thought, oh, you know, I've got a couple of group chats that are so fun. And I just went and thanked everybody on them.

I like after I read your book, I went back and I like thanked, you know, I thought, oh, you know, I've got a couple of group chats that are so fun. And I just went and thanked everybody on them.

And what do you think about the amount of time that dad and I spend on the phone?

And what do you think about the amount of time that dad and I spend on the phone?

Okay, everyone listening, go do more group chats. Just go engage in your group chats. And Chris, thank you so much for joining me today. Thank you for writing this book and explaining this all to us.

Okay, everyone listening, go do more group chats. Just go engage in your group chats. And Chris, thank you so much for joining me today. Thank you for writing this book and explaining this all to us.

Chris writes about how there are two kinds of attention, voluntary attention and compelled attention.

Chris writes about how there are two kinds of attention, voluntary attention and compelled attention.

This episode was produced by Kevin Townsend and edited by Claudina Bade. Rob Smirciak engineered and Anna Alvarado fact-checked. Claudina Bade is the executive producer of Atlantic Audio and Andrea Valdez is our managing editor. My thanks again to Chris Hayes for joining me. His new book's called The Sirens Call. How attention became the world's most endangered resource. I'm Hannah Rosen.

This episode was produced by Kevin Townsend and edited by Claudina Bade. Rob Smirciak engineered and Anna Alvarado fact-checked. Claudina Bade is the executive producer of Atlantic Audio and Andrea Valdez is our managing editor. My thanks again to Chris Hayes for joining me. His new book's called The Sirens Call. How attention became the world's most endangered resource. I'm Hannah Rosen.

Thank you for listening.

Thank you for listening.

Well, I think like when they had landlines and stuff, you wouldn't spend too much more time on the phone and you would spend it on other types of devices. But now since it's all in the phone, so you wouldn't really be seeing like your parents like on a computer. You'd only see them doing that for like work or something.

Well, I think like when they had landlines and stuff, you wouldn't spend too much more time on the phone and you would spend it on other types of devices. But now since it's all in the phone, so you wouldn't really be seeing like your parents like on a computer. You'd only see them doing that for like work or something.

So I sit down and read your book. That's voluntary attention.

So I sit down and read your book. That's voluntary attention.

Is one better than the other?

Is one better than the other?

Right. You're a little less than aware of it. Like you're not thinking I want to look towards the waiter dropping the tray or I want to look towards the ambulance. You're just kind of reactive.

Right. You're a little less than aware of it. Like you're not thinking I want to look towards the waiter dropping the tray or I want to look towards the ambulance. You're just kind of reactive.

That's our executive producer, Claudina Bade, and her daughter. We're hearing from them because when we talk about screen time or how phones are manipulating us, it's often adults talking about kids. But of course, it goes the other way, too.

That's our executive producer, Claudina Bade, and her daughter. We're hearing from them because when we talk about screen time or how phones are manipulating us, it's often adults talking about kids. But of course, it goes the other way, too.

Chris, were you high when you were watching videos of cleaning carpets? No.

Chris, were you high when you were watching videos of cleaning carpets? No.

That is so – that's your ASMR? Is carpet cleaning?

That is so – that's your ASMR? Is carpet cleaning?

Essentially, what you're saying is the way this works is we've got some biological impulses, let's say, for example, to want social attention just to be noticed by others. That's in us and that's fine.

Essentially, what you're saying is the way this works is we've got some biological impulses, let's say, for example, to want social attention just to be noticed by others. That's in us and that's fine.

This is Chris Hayes, my guest this week.

This is Chris Hayes, my guest this week.

So we have this need for social attention. It's a basic need. Whether we're an introvert or an extrovert, that's not what we're talking about. We just have this basic need for social attention. What is different about seeking social attention online?

So we have this need for social attention. It's a basic need. Whether we're an introvert or an extrovert, that's not what we're talking about. We just have this basic need for social attention. What is different about seeking social attention online?

Who's the meanest to you about it?

Who's the meanest to you about it?

Really?

Really?

Not the teenager as we expected.

Not the teenager as we expected.

When my parents are on the phone, it usually makes me feel like really bored and like makes me want to do something because I don't really have anything to do. And I'm kind of just like sitting there and like watching them on the phone.

When my parents are on the phone, it usually makes me feel like really bored and like makes me want to do something because I don't really have anything to do. And I'm kind of just like sitting there and like watching them on the phone.

So we just basically, our, I don't know if I want to call them our intimacy compass, something gets scrambled. We just don't have the category to react or manage that category of social attention. We just don't know what to do with it.

So we just basically, our, I don't know if I want to call them our intimacy compass, something gets scrambled. We just don't have the category to react or manage that category of social attention. We just don't know what to do with it.

You mentioned Bo Burnham in your book, and the movie he made, Eighth Grade, when he talked about why he made that movie, he said that same thing, that, you know, he had a similar experience to you. He went viral at a pretty young age.

You mentioned Bo Burnham in your book, and the movie he made, Eighth Grade, when he talked about why he made that movie, he said that same thing, that, you know, he had a similar experience to you. He went viral at a pretty young age.

And then he realized that every eighth grader was having the kind of experience that he had had, which he found so alienating, but that had now become a common experience. Can you read a paragraph for me from your social attention chapter, which I think is relevant to this conversation?

And then he realized that every eighth grader was having the kind of experience that he had had, which he found so alienating, but that had now become a common experience. Can you read a paragraph for me from your social attention chapter, which I think is relevant to this conversation?

Just the graph that starts with the social media combination.

Just the graph that starts with the social media combination.

That really hit me. It's a dark vision. It's like they tap into our thirst perfectly, but then just keep the glass of water just out of reach, you know?

That really hit me. It's a dark vision. It's like they tap into our thirst perfectly, but then just keep the glass of water just out of reach, you know?

I'm Hannah Rosen, and this week on Radio Atlantic, the war for your attention. You probably know Chris Hayes best as a host on MSNBC. He's also the author of a new book, The Sirens Call, How Attention Became the World's Most Endangered Resource. And he doesn't just mean parental attention.

I'm Hannah Rosen, and this week on Radio Atlantic, the war for your attention. You probably know Chris Hayes best as a host on MSNBC. He's also the author of a new book, The Sirens Call, How Attention Became the World's Most Endangered Resource. And he doesn't just mean parental attention.

When we come back, who exactly is benefiting from this attention economy? Why it feels so bad for the rest of us and what we can do about it. That's after the break. We're back, and we're starting with something that everyone who gets social attention from strangers eventually learns.

When we come back, who exactly is benefiting from this attention economy? Why it feels so bad for the rest of us and what we can do about it. That's after the break. We're back, and we're starting with something that everyone who gets social attention from strangers eventually learns.

Six and a half million?

Six and a half million?

Now that I understand better, I'm going to ask you a very I'm your friend at the party kind of question. So in my current profession, I don't work with birds. I'm not a dairy farmer. But you read things like, oh, you could get it from a bird feeder or it might be in food products. Like what is the kind of thing you would tell your average friend to do or not do? Are there any such things?

Now that I understand better, I'm going to ask you a very I'm your friend at the party kind of question. So in my current profession, I don't work with birds. I'm not a dairy farmer. But you read things like, oh, you could get it from a bird feeder or it might be in food products. Like what is the kind of thing you would tell your average friend to do or not do? Are there any such things?

Your average friend who's not a dairy worker.

Your average friend who's not a dairy worker.

I'm just going to ask you about raw milk. Like, what is it about raw milk? I would like you to stop.

I'm just going to ask you about raw milk. Like, what is it about raw milk? I would like you to stop.

Right. And obviously, don't touch a dead bird.

Right. And obviously, don't touch a dead bird.

Interesting. Okay. Oof, I feel seen. I do not keep my cat indoors. I'm sorry. Okay. I want to talk about the government response, which you mentioned up top. In a different circumstance, I would trust that there were infrastructures somewhere that you could turn on, as I said. But we now have...

Interesting. Okay. Oof, I feel seen. I do not keep my cat indoors. I'm sorry. Okay. I want to talk about the government response, which you mentioned up top. In a different circumstance, I would trust that there were infrastructures somewhere that you could turn on, as I said. But we now have...

Robert Kennedy Jr., who's overseeing health and human services and is a person who's skeptical of the usual epidemiological tools that we use to control viruses like masking and especially vaccines. From your reporting, what have you found the Trump administration doing or saying that pricks up your ears when it comes to bird flu? Like, what are you tracking about what they're doing?

Robert Kennedy Jr., who's overseeing health and human services and is a person who's skeptical of the usual epidemiological tools that we use to control viruses like masking and especially vaccines. From your reporting, what have you found the Trump administration doing or saying that pricks up your ears when it comes to bird flu? Like, what are you tracking about what they're doing?

This is Radio Atlantic. I'm Hannah Rosen. By now, you don't have to be the CEO of an egg farm to know about bird flu. It's all over the news and possibly showing up at your local supermarket.

This is Radio Atlantic. I'm Hannah Rosen. By now, you don't have to be the CEO of an egg farm to know about bird flu. It's all over the news and possibly showing up at your local supermarket.

So are you saying these conversations aren't happening or that there isn't necessarily a strategy in place? Because I saw in one of your stories that the government has disputed that its response was too slow or inadequate.

So are you saying these conversations aren't happening or that there isn't necessarily a strategy in place? Because I saw in one of your stories that the government has disputed that its response was too slow or inadequate.

Yeah. A person seeing this train coming down the tracks, like what I think about is the sort of general anti-scientific establishment sentiment, this mistrust of the scientific establishment, which is not just in certain members of the administration, but spread among the public during COVID, as you mentioned. You know, what happens if the train crashes and we still are living in that moment?

Yeah. A person seeing this train coming down the tracks, like what I think about is the sort of general anti-scientific establishment sentiment, this mistrust of the scientific establishment, which is not just in certain members of the administration, but spread among the public during COVID, as you mentioned. You know, what happens if the train crashes and we still are living in that moment?

Like, what does natural mean? Like, when you hear that, what goes through your head?

Like, what does natural mean? Like, when you hear that, what goes through your head?

Yeah. This is such an important point you're making because I used to think of people who had tremendous tolerance for natural as being of certain religious sex, you know, who don't believe in medical intervention. And so you'd have a real reason and framework and worldview that would have you be extremely committed to natural, even if your child died, say, which is the ultimate test.

Yeah. This is such an important point you're making because I used to think of people who had tremendous tolerance for natural as being of certain religious sex, you know, who don't believe in medical intervention. And so you'd have a real reason and framework and worldview that would have you be extremely committed to natural, even if your child died, say, which is the ultimate test.

But during COVID, I mean, there were there were plenty of people who did not vaccinate their children and children died. I mean, that did happen during COVID. So it is really hard to say what the American tolerance is for natural right now.

But during COVID, I mean, there were there were plenty of people who did not vaccinate their children and children died. I mean, that did happen during COVID. So it is really hard to say what the American tolerance is for natural right now.

Both Costco and Trader Joe's have put restrictions on how many eggs you can buy. Other grocery stores have, too, depending on the location. Last month, Waffle House put a 50-cent surcharge on every egg it sells, which seems like a new tier to the Waffle House disaster index. If it hits a dollar, we are officially in the bad place. But it's not just about the cost of eggs.

Both Costco and Trader Joe's have put restrictions on how many eggs you can buy. Other grocery stores have, too, depending on the location. Last month, Waffle House put a 50-cent surcharge on every egg it sells, which seems like a new tier to the Waffle House disaster index. If it hits a dollar, we are officially in the bad place. But it's not just about the cost of eggs.

That is such a lovely description of a vaccine and such an interesting pushback. I really hadn't thought of that. You looked into the current measles outbreak. What does the government's response to that tell you about how this administration might respond to a potential bird flu outbreak?

That is such a lovely description of a vaccine and such an interesting pushback. I really hadn't thought of that. You looked into the current measles outbreak. What does the government's response to that tell you about how this administration might respond to a potential bird flu outbreak?

Right. That actually is worrisome. I mean, the way you just laid that out, that is worrisome. It should have been, number one, get your child vaccinated. And maybe, number two, this is an emergency. And that wasn't the attitude, particularly.

Right. That actually is worrisome. I mean, the way you just laid that out, that is worrisome. It should have been, number one, get your child vaccinated. And maybe, number two, this is an emergency. And that wasn't the attitude, particularly.

Right. So with COVID, there was a day, you know. Will we know when we've reached the tipping point? Like, will it be totally obvious to us, like there'll be giant headlines in the newspaper, or it won't be totally obvious?

Right. So with COVID, there was a day, you know. Will we know when we've reached the tipping point? Like, will it be totally obvious to us, like there'll be giant headlines in the newspaper, or it won't be totally obvious?

Bird flu has been spreading to mammals. Cows have been dying. Some farm workers have been getting ill.

Bird flu has been spreading to mammals. Cows have been dying. Some farm workers have been getting ill.

By the way, after we taped with both Katie and Greg Herbrook, the poultry CEO, we heard the news that RFK Jr. was suggesting that instead of culling chickens who were sick, farmers should maybe let bird flu, quote, run through the flock so that we can identify the birds and preserve the birds that are immune to it. Basically, let the virus run its course.

By the way, after we taped with both Katie and Greg Herbrook, the poultry CEO, we heard the news that RFK Jr. was suggesting that instead of culling chickens who were sick, farmers should maybe let bird flu, quote, run through the flock so that we can identify the birds and preserve the birds that are immune to it. Basically, let the virus run its course.

We asked Greg what he thought of that plan, and he told us this via email. Quote, "...letting an outbreak run through the flock in an uncontrolled manner is not a practical or humane solution and would lead to needless suffering while increasing the risk of AI, meaning avian influenza, spreading to other species and animals and ultimately putting humans at greater risk."

We asked Greg what he thought of that plan, and he told us this via email. Quote, "...letting an outbreak run through the flock in an uncontrolled manner is not a practical or humane solution and would lead to needless suffering while increasing the risk of AI, meaning avian influenza, spreading to other species and animals and ultimately putting humans at greater risk."

This episode of Radio Atlantic was produced by Janae West and edited by Claudina Bade. We had engineering support from Erica Huang and fact-checking by Sarah Krulewski. Claudina Bade is the executive producer of Atlantic Audio and Andrea Valdez is our managing editor.

This episode of Radio Atlantic was produced by Janae West and edited by Claudina Bade. We had engineering support from Erica Huang and fact-checking by Sarah Krulewski. Claudina Bade is the executive producer of Atlantic Audio and Andrea Valdez is our managing editor.

Listeners, if you like what you hear on Radio Atlantic, you can support our work and the work of all Atlantic journalists when you subscribe to The Atlantic at theatlantic.com slash pod sub. That's theatlantic.com slash pod sub. I'm Hannah Rosen. Thank you for listening.

Listeners, if you like what you hear on Radio Atlantic, you can support our work and the work of all Atlantic journalists when you subscribe to The Atlantic at theatlantic.com slash pod sub. That's theatlantic.com slash pod sub. I'm Hannah Rosen. Thank you for listening.

Scientists are starting to talk about a pandemic worse than COVID lurking. So I asked staff writer Katie Wu, who covers all things science for us at The Atlantic, to make me feel better. So basically, I want you, Katie, to just tell me it's going to be okay. No, I'm just kidding. I just say it's going to be fine. Everything is going to be fine.

Scientists are starting to talk about a pandemic worse than COVID lurking. So I asked staff writer Katie Wu, who covers all things science for us at The Atlantic, to make me feel better. So basically, I want you, Katie, to just tell me it's going to be okay. No, I'm just kidding. I just say it's going to be fine. Everything is going to be fine.

I was kind of kidding, although she never explicitly said everything was going to be okay. I did want to ask Katie, though, about how concerned we should actually be on a scale of 1 to 10. 1 being like, don't worry at all, and 10 being we are canceling the NBA Finals.

I was kind of kidding, although she never explicitly said everything was going to be okay. I did want to ask Katie, though, about how concerned we should actually be on a scale of 1 to 10. 1 being like, don't worry at all, and 10 being we are canceling the NBA Finals.

Ah, okay.

Ah, okay.

Okay. So what would avoiding it have looked like? What could we have done in that critical moment?

Okay. So what would avoiding it have looked like? What could we have done in that critical moment?

Mom joke. Dad joke. Yeah.

Mom joke. Dad joke. Yeah.

So Greg knows his chickens. I love talking about my hens. Yeah. Greg has known chickens his entire life.

So Greg knows his chickens. I love talking about my hens. Yeah. Greg has known chickens his entire life.

Okay. Let's say for some reason, maybe this is a sci-fi scenario, maybe this is biologically realistic. We'll get into that. But if it became suddenly zoomed to a realistic threat, It sounds like you're not sure that we'd be ready.

Okay. Let's say for some reason, maybe this is a sci-fi scenario, maybe this is biologically realistic. We'll get into that. But if it became suddenly zoomed to a realistic threat, It sounds like you're not sure that we'd be ready.

Interesting. You know, I have this sense that because of COVID, we would be better at it. Like we've been down this road and it was only five years ago so that the infrastructure is in place and somebody just flips the switch and here we go. You know, we're not going to wake up one morning and be told this is upon us. Don't go back to work. But it sounds like that's not how it's rolling out.

Interesting. You know, I have this sense that because of COVID, we would be better at it. Like we've been down this road and it was only five years ago so that the infrastructure is in place and somebody just flips the switch and here we go. You know, we're not going to wake up one morning and be told this is upon us. Don't go back to work. But it sounds like that's not how it's rolling out.

But losing 70 hens in one day, that was unusual. And then the next day, that number went up.

But losing 70 hens in one day, that was unusual. And then the next day, that number went up.

Okay. You've mentioned a few times the jumps and the sort of ratcheting up. What's the rough timeline of events? As someone who's tracking this, I just want to understand, is it very fast? How has it gone? Has it been over the course of 30 years or five years? What's the timeline?

Okay. You've mentioned a few times the jumps and the sort of ratcheting up. What's the rough timeline of events? As someone who's tracking this, I just want to understand, is it very fast? How has it gone? Has it been over the course of 30 years or five years? What's the timeline?

Last year, on the day before Easter, America's most egg-centric holiday, Greg Herberk lost 70 hens. Now, to lose several chickens on a large-scale farm, not that big a deal, just part of the process, which Greg knows because he's the CEO of the largest egg producer in Michigan and the 10th largest in the country. His family's been in the business for more than three generations.

Last year, on the day before Easter, America's most egg-centric holiday, Greg Herberk lost 70 hens. Now, to lose several chickens on a large-scale farm, not that big a deal, just part of the process, which Greg knows because he's the CEO of the largest egg producer in Michigan and the 10th largest in the country. His family's been in the business for more than three generations.

But it has shown up in humans, right?

But it has shown up in humans, right?

I mean, this is probably obvious, but an important line is that everybody's watching is the jump into humans. Like there are tragedies when chicken dies, both economic and otherwise, when cows die, other mammals die. But people are tracking the line into humans. What's happening internally? What does that look like internally? And how has that happened in the past? How is the virus transmuting?

I mean, this is probably obvious, but an important line is that everybody's watching is the jump into humans. Like there are tragedies when chicken dies, both economic and otherwise, when cows die, other mammals die. But people are tracking the line into humans. What's happening internally? What does that look like internally? And how has that happened in the past? How is the virus transmuting?

How many birds did you lose since that Easter Day weekend?

How many birds did you lose since that Easter Day weekend?

Yes, totally. I read a quote that because of dairy workers, the virus, as this person put it, has more shots on the goal. So I guess that's what you're describing, just like more chances to figure out how to adapt.

Yes, totally. I read a quote that because of dairy workers, the virus, as this person put it, has more shots on the goal. So I guess that's what you're describing, just like more chances to figure out how to adapt.

After the break, what happens when the ball sticks?

After the break, what happens when the ball sticks?

Hey there, I'm Claudina Bade, and I lead the audio team here at The Atlantic. I think a lot about what makes great audio journalism. It commands your attention, but isn't noisy. It brings you closer to the subject, but leaves room for you to make up your own mind. And when you hear someone tell their story in their own voice, you understand it in a deeper way.

Hey there, I'm Claudina Bade, and I lead the audio team here at The Atlantic. I think a lot about what makes great audio journalism. It commands your attention, but isn't noisy. It brings you closer to the subject, but leaves room for you to make up your own mind. And when you hear someone tell their story in their own voice, you understand it in a deeper way.

When you subscribe to The Atlantic, you'll be supporting this kind of journalism. You'll also enjoy new benefits just for Atlantic subscribers on Apple podcasts. Think ad-free episodes of our shows and subscriber-only audio articles. To join us, go to theatlantic.com slash listener. That's theatlantic.com slash listener. If you're already a subscriber, thanks.

When you subscribe to The Atlantic, you'll be supporting this kind of journalism. You'll also enjoy new benefits just for Atlantic subscribers on Apple podcasts. Think ad-free episodes of our shows and subscriber-only audio articles. To join us, go to theatlantic.com slash listener. That's theatlantic.com slash listener. If you're already a subscriber, thanks.

The Atlantic

The Atlantic

Hey there, I'm Claudina Bade, and I lead the audio team here at The Atlantic. I think a lot about what makes great audio journalism. It commands your attention, but isn't noisy. It brings you closer to the subject, but leaves room for you to make up your own mind. And when you hear someone tell their story in their own voice, you understand it in a deeper way.

When you subscribe to The Atlantic, you'll be supporting this kind of journalism. You'll also enjoy new benefits just for Atlantic subscribers on Apple podcasts. Think ad-free episodes of our shows and subscriber-only audio articles. To join us, go to theatlantic.com slash listener. That's theatlantic.com slash listener. If you're already a subscriber, thanks.

The Atlantic

Six and a half million?

Now that I understand better, I'm going to ask you a very I'm your friend at the party kind of question. So in my current profession, I don't work with birds. I'm not a dairy farmer. But you read things like, oh, you could get it from a bird feeder or it might be in food products. Like what is the kind of thing you would tell your average friend to do or not do? Are there any such things?

Your average friend who's not a dairy worker.

I'm just going to ask you about raw milk. Like, what is it about raw milk? I would like you to stop.

Right. And obviously, don't touch a dead bird.

Interesting. Okay. Oof, I feel seen. I do not keep my cat indoors. I'm sorry. Okay. I want to talk about the government response, which you mentioned up top. In a different circumstance, I would trust that there were infrastructures somewhere that you could turn on, as I said. But we now have...

Robert Kennedy Jr., who's overseeing health and human services and is a person who's skeptical of the usual epidemiological tools that we use to control viruses like masking and especially vaccines. From your reporting, what have you found the Trump administration doing or saying that pricks up your ears when it comes to bird flu? Like, what are you tracking about what they're doing?

This is Radio Atlantic. I'm Hannah Rosen. By now, you don't have to be the CEO of an egg farm to know about bird flu. It's all over the news and possibly showing up at your local supermarket.

So are you saying these conversations aren't happening or that there isn't necessarily a strategy in place? Because I saw in one of your stories that the government has disputed that its response was too slow or inadequate.

Yeah. A person seeing this train coming down the tracks, like what I think about is the sort of general anti-scientific establishment sentiment, this mistrust of the scientific establishment, which is not just in certain members of the administration, but spread among the public during COVID, as you mentioned. You know, what happens if the train crashes and we still are living in that moment?

Like, what does natural mean? Like, when you hear that, what goes through your head?

Yeah. This is such an important point you're making because I used to think of people who had tremendous tolerance for natural as being of certain religious sex, you know, who don't believe in medical intervention. And so you'd have a real reason and framework and worldview that would have you be extremely committed to natural, even if your child died, say, which is the ultimate test.

But during COVID, I mean, there were there were plenty of people who did not vaccinate their children and children died. I mean, that did happen during COVID. So it is really hard to say what the American tolerance is for natural right now.

Both Costco and Trader Joe's have put restrictions on how many eggs you can buy. Other grocery stores have, too, depending on the location. Last month, Waffle House put a 50-cent surcharge on every egg it sells, which seems like a new tier to the Waffle House disaster index. If it hits a dollar, we are officially in the bad place. But it's not just about the cost of eggs.

That is such a lovely description of a vaccine and such an interesting pushback. I really hadn't thought of that. You looked into the current measles outbreak. What does the government's response to that tell you about how this administration might respond to a potential bird flu outbreak?

Right. That actually is worrisome. I mean, the way you just laid that out, that is worrisome. It should have been, number one, get your child vaccinated. And maybe, number two, this is an emergency. And that wasn't the attitude, particularly.

Right. So with COVID, there was a day, you know. Will we know when we've reached the tipping point? Like, will it be totally obvious to us, like there'll be giant headlines in the newspaper, or it won't be totally obvious?

Bird flu has been spreading to mammals. Cows have been dying. Some farm workers have been getting ill.

By the way, after we taped with both Katie and Greg Herbrook, the poultry CEO, we heard the news that RFK Jr. was suggesting that instead of culling chickens who were sick, farmers should maybe let bird flu, quote, run through the flock so that we can identify the birds and preserve the birds that are immune to it. Basically, let the virus run its course.

We asked Greg what he thought of that plan, and he told us this via email. Quote, "...letting an outbreak run through the flock in an uncontrolled manner is not a practical or humane solution and would lead to needless suffering while increasing the risk of AI, meaning avian influenza, spreading to other species and animals and ultimately putting humans at greater risk."

This episode of Radio Atlantic was produced by Janae West and edited by Claudina Bade. We had engineering support from Erica Huang and fact-checking by Sarah Krulewski. Claudina Bade is the executive producer of Atlantic Audio and Andrea Valdez is our managing editor.

Listeners, if you like what you hear on Radio Atlantic, you can support our work and the work of all Atlantic journalists when you subscribe to The Atlantic at theatlantic.com slash pod sub. That's theatlantic.com slash pod sub. I'm Hannah Rosen. Thank you for listening.

Scientists are starting to talk about a pandemic worse than COVID lurking. So I asked staff writer Katie Wu, who covers all things science for us at The Atlantic, to make me feel better. So basically, I want you, Katie, to just tell me it's going to be okay. No, I'm just kidding. I just say it's going to be fine. Everything is going to be fine.

I was kind of kidding, although she never explicitly said everything was going to be okay. I did want to ask Katie, though, about how concerned we should actually be on a scale of 1 to 10. 1 being like, don't worry at all, and 10 being we are canceling the NBA Finals.

Ah, okay.

Okay. So what would avoiding it have looked like? What could we have done in that critical moment?

Mom joke. Dad joke. Yeah.

So Greg knows his chickens. I love talking about my hens. Yeah. Greg has known chickens his entire life.

Okay. Let's say for some reason, maybe this is a sci-fi scenario, maybe this is biologically realistic. We'll get into that. But if it became suddenly zoomed to a realistic threat, It sounds like you're not sure that we'd be ready.

Interesting. You know, I have this sense that because of COVID, we would be better at it. Like we've been down this road and it was only five years ago so that the infrastructure is in place and somebody just flips the switch and here we go. You know, we're not going to wake up one morning and be told this is upon us. Don't go back to work. But it sounds like that's not how it's rolling out.

But losing 70 hens in one day, that was unusual. And then the next day, that number went up.

Okay. You've mentioned a few times the jumps and the sort of ratcheting up. What's the rough timeline of events? As someone who's tracking this, I just want to understand, is it very fast? How has it gone? Has it been over the course of 30 years or five years? What's the timeline?

Last year, on the day before Easter, America's most egg-centric holiday, Greg Herberk lost 70 hens. Now, to lose several chickens on a large-scale farm, not that big a deal, just part of the process, which Greg knows because he's the CEO of the largest egg producer in Michigan and the 10th largest in the country. His family's been in the business for more than three generations.

But it has shown up in humans, right?

I mean, this is probably obvious, but an important line is that everybody's watching is the jump into humans. Like there are tragedies when chicken dies, both economic and otherwise, when cows die, other mammals die. But people are tracking the line into humans. What's happening internally? What does that look like internally? And how has that happened in the past? How is the virus transmuting?

How many birds did you lose since that Easter Day weekend?

Yes, totally. I read a quote that because of dairy workers, the virus, as this person put it, has more shots on the goal. So I guess that's what you're describing, just like more chances to figure out how to adapt.

After the break, what happens when the ball sticks?

Yes, it's happened to me. And I was so surprised at how hurt I was. And when I look back, I think, like, I literally don't really know those people. Like, there's just something so, oh, it's like ancient, the feeling. Like, you're being pillory.

Well, I think the lesson to learn from that is what you're talking about in this book is how vulnerable we are. Even when it doesn't make intellectual sense, there is some way that we're vulnerable. you know, vulnerable in this moment. We can't completely control our reactions and choose voluntarily not to pay attention to this thing. We don't have that kind of agency, not yet, anyway.

Well, let's talk about attention as a resource because we've talked a lot about how it works in us, the individuals, and permeates our lives. But I want to talk about a broader social context. You make this very compelling analogy between our attention problem and Marxist ideas. I did have this image of you at a bookstore one day, like, being bored and coming across a copy of Das Kapital.

He's talking about attention in politics, commerce, social media, basically how capitalism found a uniquely human weakness to exploit. But since the topic is so often seen through the lens of parents and children, we started out sharing how we can feel like hypocrites when we police our kids' devices.

And, like, a lightning bolt goes off. Yes! It's like Marx, but for the information age. It's a really compelling analogy. Can you explain it?

And how is that different from people's relationship to labor before? Just so we get the analogy.

Called labor.

So we're not exactly compelled. Nobody's holding a gun to our head. So I don't know that you could say it's worse. It's just more confusing because we are participating.

One consequence we're seeing is the kind of people who thrive in this age. Yes. Obviously, Donald Trump. You mention Elon Musk a lot in the book, which I think is a specific point. Like, the Trump point is kind of obvious. Like, why someone like that thrives in an age of attention, I think we intuitively understand that. Musk is a little more complicated.

Oh, oh. Oh, Chris, 1,000%. Even the fact that we get to use the term screen time, and guess who doesn't get to use the term screen time? They can't be like, Dad, you only have an hour of screen time today.

What do you mean? What do you define as the Musk era?

That seems so huge and overpowering. I mean, there's a way of listening to you and reading this book and fully seeing it. Like, we can see the train wreck in our own lives and sort of out there in the world. But you might read the book and think, okay, this is my own ordeal, like something I have to combat. I have to put my phone away. I have to chain myself to the trees or whatever.

Do you think we're being exploited and we should be mad about it?

Well, I take hope in the schools. I mean, schools not just in the U.S., but all over the world are starting to get pretty serious about no phones at all during class time, which is radical. If you're a teenager, that's a radical change in your life. So that's hopeful. I will say one thing your book has really done for me very concretely is make me appreciate my group chats.

I like after I read your book, I went back and I like thanked, you know, I thought, oh, you know, I've got a couple of group chats that are so fun. And I just went and thanked everybody on them.

And what do you think about the amount of time that dad and I spend on the phone?

Okay, everyone listening, go do more group chats. Just go engage in your group chats. And Chris, thank you so much for joining me today. Thank you for writing this book and explaining this all to us.

Chris writes about how there are two kinds of attention, voluntary attention and compelled attention.

This episode was produced by Kevin Townsend and edited by Claudina Bade. Rob Smirciak engineered and Anna Alvarado fact-checked. Claudina Bade is the executive producer of Atlantic Audio and Andrea Valdez is our managing editor. My thanks again to Chris Hayes for joining me. His new book's called The Sirens Call. How attention became the world's most endangered resource. I'm Hannah Rosen.

Thank you for listening.

Well, I think like when they had landlines and stuff, you wouldn't spend too much more time on the phone and you would spend it on other types of devices. But now since it's all in the phone, so you wouldn't really be seeing like your parents like on a computer. You'd only see them doing that for like work or something.

So I sit down and read your book. That's voluntary attention.

Is one better than the other?

Right. You're a little less than aware of it. Like you're not thinking I want to look towards the waiter dropping the tray or I want to look towards the ambulance. You're just kind of reactive.

That's our executive producer, Claudina Bade, and her daughter. We're hearing from them because when we talk about screen time or how phones are manipulating us, it's often adults talking about kids. But of course, it goes the other way, too.

Chris, were you high when you were watching videos of cleaning carpets? No.

That is so – that's your ASMR? Is carpet cleaning?

Essentially, what you're saying is the way this works is we've got some biological impulses, let's say, for example, to want social attention just to be noticed by others. That's in us and that's fine.

This is Chris Hayes, my guest this week.

So we have this need for social attention. It's a basic need. Whether we're an introvert or an extrovert, that's not what we're talking about. We just have this basic need for social attention. What is different about seeking social attention online?

Who's the meanest to you about it?

Really?

Not the teenager as we expected.

When my parents are on the phone, it usually makes me feel like really bored and like makes me want to do something because I don't really have anything to do. And I'm kind of just like sitting there and like watching them on the phone.

So we just basically, our, I don't know if I want to call them our intimacy compass, something gets scrambled. We just don't have the category to react or manage that category of social attention. We just don't know what to do with it.

You mentioned Bo Burnham in your book, and the movie he made, Eighth Grade, when he talked about why he made that movie, he said that same thing, that, you know, he had a similar experience to you. He went viral at a pretty young age.

And then he realized that every eighth grader was having the kind of experience that he had had, which he found so alienating, but that had now become a common experience. Can you read a paragraph for me from your social attention chapter, which I think is relevant to this conversation?

Just the graph that starts with the social media combination.

That really hit me. It's a dark vision. It's like they tap into our thirst perfectly, but then just keep the glass of water just out of reach, you know?

I'm Hannah Rosen, and this week on Radio Atlantic, the war for your attention. You probably know Chris Hayes best as a host on MSNBC. He's also the author of a new book, The Sirens Call, How Attention Became the World's Most Endangered Resource. And he doesn't just mean parental attention.

When we come back, who exactly is benefiting from this attention economy? Why it feels so bad for the rest of us and what we can do about it. That's after the break. We're back, and we're starting with something that everyone who gets social attention from strangers eventually learns.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Hey there. I'm Claudina Bade, and I lead the audio team here at The Atlantic. I think a lot about what makes great audio journalism. It commands your attention, but isn't noisy. It brings you closer to the subject, but leaves room for you to make up your own mind. And when you hear someone tell their story in their own voice, you understand it in a deeper way.

Hey there. I'm Claudina Bade, and I lead the audio team here at The Atlantic. I think a lot about what makes great audio journalism. It commands your attention, but isn't noisy. It brings you closer to the subject, but leaves room for you to make up your own mind. And when you hear someone tell their story in their own voice, you understand it in a deeper way.

When you subscribe to The Atlantic, you'll be supporting this kind of journalism. You'll also enjoy new benefits just for Atlantic subscribers on Apple Podcasts. Think ad-free episodes of our shows and subscriber-only audio articles. To join us, go to theatlantic.com slash listener. That's theatlantic.com slash listener. If you're already a subscriber, thanks.

When you subscribe to The Atlantic, you'll be supporting this kind of journalism. You'll also enjoy new benefits just for Atlantic subscribers on Apple Podcasts. Think ad-free episodes of our shows and subscriber-only audio articles. To join us, go to theatlantic.com slash listener. That's theatlantic.com slash listener. If you're already a subscriber, thanks.

You can head to The Atlantic's channel page on Apple Podcasts and start listening right now.

You can head to The Atlantic's channel page on Apple Podcasts and start listening right now.

Hey there, I'm Claudina Bade, and I lead the audio team here at The Atlantic. I think a lot about what makes great audio journalism. It commands your attention, but isn't noisy. It brings you closer to the subject, but leaves room for you to make up your own mind. And when you hear someone tell their story in their own voice, you understand it in a deeper way.

Hey there, I'm Claudina Bade, and I lead the audio team here at The Atlantic. I think a lot about what makes great audio journalism. It commands your attention, but isn't noisy. It brings you closer to the subject, but leaves room for you to make up your own mind. And when you hear someone tell their story in their own voice, you understand it in a deeper way.

When you subscribe to The Atlantic, you'll be supporting this kind of journalism. You'll also enjoy new benefits just for Atlantic subscribers on Apple Podcasts. Think ad-free episodes of our shows and subscriber-only audio articles. To join us, go to theatlantic.com slash listener. That's theatlantic.com slash listener. If you're already a subscriber, thanks.

When you subscribe to The Atlantic, you'll be supporting this kind of journalism. You'll also enjoy new benefits just for Atlantic subscribers on Apple Podcasts. Think ad-free episodes of our shows and subscriber-only audio articles. To join us, go to theatlantic.com slash listener. That's theatlantic.com slash listener. If you're already a subscriber, thanks.

You can head to The Atlantic's channel page on Apple Podcasts and start listening right now.

You can head to The Atlantic's channel page on Apple Podcasts and start listening right now.

Thank you.

Hey there. I'm Claudina Bade, and I lead the audio team here at The Atlantic. I think a lot about what makes great audio journalism. It commands your attention, but isn't noisy. It brings you closer to the subject, but leaves room for you to make up your own mind. And when you hear someone tell their story in their own voice, you understand it in a deeper way.

When you subscribe to The Atlantic, you'll be supporting this kind of journalism. You'll also enjoy new benefits just for Atlantic subscribers on Apple Podcasts. Think ad-free episodes of our shows and subscriber-only audio articles. To join us, go to theatlantic.com slash listener. That's theatlantic.com slash listener. If you're already a subscriber, thanks.

You can head to The Atlantic's channel page on Apple Podcasts and start listening right now.

Hey there, I'm Claudina Bade, and I lead the audio team here at The Atlantic. I think a lot about what makes great audio journalism. It commands your attention, but isn't noisy. It brings you closer to the subject, but leaves room for you to make up your own mind. And when you hear someone tell their story in their own voice, you understand it in a deeper way.

When you subscribe to The Atlantic, you'll be supporting this kind of journalism. You'll also enjoy new benefits just for Atlantic subscribers on Apple Podcasts. Think ad-free episodes of our shows and subscriber-only audio articles. To join us, go to theatlantic.com slash listener. That's theatlantic.com slash listener. If you're already a subscriber, thanks.

You can head to The Atlantic's channel page on Apple Podcasts and start listening right now.